IRC log of webevents on 2012-03-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:01:57 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webevents
16:01:57 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/06-webevents-irc
16:02:04 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log public
16:02:11 [Cathy]
Zakim, aabb is me
16:02:11 [Zakim]
+Cathy; got it
16:02:15 [ArtB]
ScribeNick: ArtB
16:02:15 [ArtB]
Scribe: Art
16:02:15 [ArtB]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/0023.html
16:02:15 [ArtB]
Date: 06 March 2012
16:02:15 [ArtB]
Chair: Art
16:02:15 [ArtB]
Meeting: Web Events WG Voice Conference
16:02:22 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:02:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/06-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:03:51 [Zakim]
+ +358.718.00aacc
16:03:55 [ArtB]
zakim, who's here?
16:03:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.717.578.aaaa, Cathy, +358.718.00aacc
16:03:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Cathy, ArtB, scottgonzalez, mbrubeck, timeless, trackbot, shepazu, lgombos
16:04:07 [scottgonzalez]
Zakim, aaaa is me
16:04:07 [Zakim]
+scottgonzalez; got it
16:04:11 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
16:04:19 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.792.aadd
16:04:23 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, aadd is me
16:04:23 [Zakim]
+mbrubeck; got it
16:05:03 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, who is here?
16:05:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see scottgonzalez, Cathy, +358.718.00aacc, Doug_Schepers, mbrubeck
16:05:04 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #webevents
16:05:05 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Cathy, ArtB, scottgonzalez, mbrubeck, timeless, shepazu, lgombos
16:05:09 [ArtB]
Present: Art_Barstow, Cathy_Chan, Doug_Schepers, Matt_Brubeck, Scott_Gonzalez
16:05:20 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, who is making noise?
16:05:30 [Zakim]
mbrubeck, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: scottgonzalez (25%), +358.718.00aacc (100%)
16:05:33 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, aacc is Art_Barstow
16:05:33 [Zakim]
+Art_Barstow; got it
16:05:41 [ArtB]
Topic: Tweak Agenda
16:05:45 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, nick ArtB is Art_Barstow
16:05:45 [Zakim]
ok, mbrubeck, I now associate ArtB with Art_Barstow
16:05:46 [ArtB]
AB: I posted a draft agenda yesterday http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/0023.html. After that, Scott González posted a link to some work he has done and I'd like to add that to the agenda.
16:05:56 [ArtB]
AB: any objections to adding that topic?
16:06:12 [Zakim]
-Cathy
16:06:20 [ArtB]
DS: that would be great
16:06:30 [Zakim]
+Cathy
16:06:34 [ArtB]
AB: ok, so we'll do that and add it right after Annoucements
16:06:44 [ArtB]
AB: any other change requests for the agenda?
16:06:51 [ArtB]
Topic: Announcements
16:06:57 [ArtB]
AB: any short announcements for today?
16:08:02 [ArtB]
MB: I will represent Mozilla in the PAG
16:08:07 [ArtB]
AB: that's excellent Matt
16:10:47 [ArtB]
Topic: Touch Events and MSPointer Events
16:10:56 [ArtB]
AB: yesterday, Scott mentioned the work he has been doing comparing our Touch Events with MSPointer Events http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/0024.html.
16:11:32 [ArtB]
SG: I'm working on normalizing pointer events in jQuery
16:11:44 [ArtB]
… one of the things I noticed is the divergence in touch events
16:12:09 [ArtB]
… My doc compares the two approaches
16:12:16 [ArtB]
… includes the pros and cons
16:12:26 [ArtB]
… I haven't found anyone using MSPointer
16:12:32 [ArtB]
… I list the technical diffs
16:12:41 [ArtB]
… both support multiple points
16:13:06 [ArtB]
… I assume there are UCs for knowing if >1 touch occurs at the same time
16:13:39 [ArtB]
… If anyone knows of some UCs for this, it would be good to know
16:13:56 [ArtB]
… Both systems allow getting a list of the touches
16:14:13 [ArtB]
… have to start from an event object in both cases
16:14:26 [shepazu]
q+
16:14:31 [ArtB]
… If only care about 1 touch at a time, MSPointer is a bit easier
16:14:56 [ArtB]
… With Touches, need to go to the list so a bit cumbersome
16:15:19 [ArtB]
DS: would you please distinguish these two as Webkit versus IE models?
16:15:28 [ArtB]
SG: yes, I can do that
16:15:42 [ArtB]
SG: in webkit have the touch arrays
16:15:50 [ArtB]
… and from there can get the touch point data
16:15:59 [ArtB]
… In IE model, the data is directly on the Event
16:16:10 [ArtB]
… because the data is always for a specific pointer
16:16:35 [ArtB]
… In IE will get 2 events: 1 for the first finger and a second event for the 2nd touch
16:17:29 [ArtB]
SG: WK model has no concept of hovering
16:17:40 [ArtB]
… at least not built in
16:17:51 [ArtB]
MB: in the v2 spec, we added enter and leave events
16:17:59 [ArtB]
SG: the IE model does support hovering
16:18:20 [ArtB]
… IE normalizes all pointer events into a MSPointer event
16:18:29 [ArtB]
… so they do have a concept of hover
16:18:45 [ArtB]
… a bit cumbersome though with touch, especially with a stylus
16:19:15 [ArtB]
… Don't have full hover but that's probably a h/w limitation
16:19:29 [ArtB]
DS: yes, I agree that's probably a hardware limitation
16:19:42 [ArtB]
SG: MSPointer does have some future proofing
16:19:52 [ArtB]
… i.e. it is easy to add new pointer devices
16:20:12 [ArtB]
… currently supports pen, stylus, mouse and such but can add new devices
16:20:36 [ArtB]
… Need to document more about the interaction with mouse events
16:21:42 [ArtB]
… When devs are writing custom code for gestures, the data is async
16:22:02 [ArtB]
… f.ex. for a swipe, need to know direction, and perhaps some other things
16:22:24 [ArtB]
… This now requires a lot of custom code
16:22:34 [ArtB]
… because may want to prevent the native handling
16:22:52 [ArtB]
… Need some UCs from developers and the issues they are running into
16:23:16 [ArtB]
AB: any comments, questions?
16:23:38 [ArtB]
DS: thanks for the summary and mentioning pain point
16:23:55 [ArtB]
… Do you have a sense of the +/- of both models?
16:24:21 [ArtB]
SG: I've built an abstraction around mouse, pointer, touch
16:24:32 [ArtB]
… I tend to think MSPointer is easier to work with
16:24:40 [ArtB]
… Don't have to walk thru any arrays
16:25:01 [ArtB]
… So I think it is a bit nicer but I haven't built anything advanced yet
16:25:39 [ArtB]
DS: would it be possible to get some members of jQuery community to give us some feedback
16:25:48 [ArtB]
… re both models i.e. the +/- of each
16:26:01 [ArtB]
SG: yes, I think I can get some of that info
16:26:22 [ArtB]
… i.e. try to find what people like and the pros and cons of each (IE vs. Webkit)
16:26:31 [ArtB]
… I don't think the WK model is intuitive
16:26:41 [ArtB]
… but people are now used to it
16:27:00 [ArtB]
… When they then switch to MSPointer, there is a learning curve
16:27:16 [ArtB]
… and that's unfortunate but the reality developers must face
16:27:49 [ArtB]
SG: going back to the drawback to both models, that affects mouse
16:27:59 [ArtB]
… cause probs f.ex. with text selection
16:28:16 [ArtB]
s/cause probs/causes problems/
16:28:39 [ArtB]
DS: I have seen some comments about IE model being more amenable to an app that works across devices
16:29:18 [ArtB]
… can start with one touch and then extend
16:29:52 [ArtB]
SG: if there was a generic pointer event could stop using mouse
16:30:07 [ArtB]
… one model would indeed be ideal
16:30:30 [ArtB]
DS: I started down that path with D3E and touch events
16:30:43 [ArtB]
… but we decided to do touch in a separate spec
16:31:11 [ArtB]
SG: if we had a standard similar to pointer, an abstraction over Webkit would make sense
16:31:19 [mbrubeck]
Mozilla also had a separate-event-per-pointer model before implementing the WebKit/W3C model: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/Touch_events_%28Mozilla_experimental%29
16:31:25 [ArtB]
… and we could then add something like that to jQ
16:32:15 [ArtB]
MB: Mozilla implemented our own Touch API for Windows
16:32:24 [ArtB]
… like MSPointer event uses one event per touch
16:32:33 [ArtB]
… it doesn't have getTouch method
16:32:44 [ArtB]
… which is a good addition
16:32:55 [ArtB]
… if the app needs to know the number of touch points
16:32:58 [shepazu]
q+
16:33:02 [ArtB]
… With IE can get that data
16:33:21 [ArtB]
DS: we had proposed something like that for the keyboard model [D3E]
16:33:50 [ArtB]
… if we were going to do something like that, would probably make sense to have methods to get all touches and another to get all keys pressed
16:34:38 [mbrubeck]
s/getTouch/getPointerList/
16:34:42 [ArtB]
AB: what do we do with this information and what specific follow-on action(s) are there?
16:35:10 [ArtB]
DS: I think Scott agreed to do followup on the +/- of both approaches
16:41:36 [shepazu]
q-
16:42:51 [ArtB]
DS: I just want to be clear that this IP issue means that some touch event libraries can also be affected
16:44:28 [ArtB]
AB: I've been wondering how widely known is this IP disclosure
16:44:44 [ArtB]
SG: I think most people think there is a touch standard
16:44:56 [ArtB]
s/most people/most web developers/
16:45:31 [ArtB]
… a lot of confusion about what's going on and the state of the TE spec
16:46:55 [ArtB]
SG: we will not abstract to MSPointer because it is not a standard
16:47:09 [ArtB]
… and we will not normalize to W3C Touch Events because of the PAG
16:47:35 [ArtB]
… However, if the PAG says that is OK, then that is good
16:47:47 [ArtB]
… and then we can abstract on top of the TE spec
16:47:58 [ArtB]
… but we won't do that until the PAG is clear here
16:49:16 [ArtB]
SG: jQuery won't release a normalization layer if the feature is not a standard
16:49:30 [ArtB]
… because to do so is bad for the Web
16:49:37 [ArtB]
… We want to focus on standards
16:49:51 [ArtB]
… and to help the W3C
16:50:43 [ArtB]
DS: thanks for that information Scott
16:51:13 [ArtB]
… it's good to know a standard is mandatory to be considered for a normalization layer
16:54:17 [ArtB]
Topic: Update on Touch Events PAG
16:54:36 [ArtB]
AB: the Touch Events PAG http://www.w3.org/2012/01/touch-pag-charter has now met twice and the minutes are Member-confidential https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-te-pag/
16:54:44 [ArtB]
AB: I'll give a brief summary of the status but we will *not* talk any specifics about the IP Apple disclosed
17:02:33 [ArtB]
Topic: AoB
17:02:53 [ArtB]
AB: any other topics for today?
17:03:03 [ArtB]
AB: re the next call, it will be scheduled when needed
17:04:11 [ArtB]
AB: meeting adjourned
17:04:31 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
17:04:32 [Zakim]
-Cathy
17:04:32 [Zakim]
-scottgonzalez
17:04:40 [Zakim]
-Art_Barstow
17:04:45 [Zakim]
-mbrubeck
17:04:46 [Zakim]
RWC_WebEven()11:00AM has ended
17:04:47 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.717.578.aaaa, +1.781.266.aabb, Cathy, +358.718.00aacc, scottgonzalez, Doug_Schepers, +1.206.792.aadd, mbrubeck, Art_Barstow
17:04:49 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:04:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/06-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
17:05:40 [mbrubeck]
ArtB: What time is today's PAG meeting?
17:05:50 [shepazu]
mbrubeck: 3pm EST
17:06:11 [mbrubeck]
okay. I haven't got ahold of dbaron yet; I need to figure out if he's working today
17:06:18 [shepazu]
mbrubeck: ok, thanks
17:06:29 [mbrubeck]
I guess it's still early
17:20:37 [ArtB]
zakim, bye
17:20:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #webevents
17:40:02 [ArtB]
rrsagent, bye
17:40:02 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items