20:59:36 RRSAgent has joined #fx 20:59:36 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-irc 20:59:38 RRSAgent, make logs world 20:59:38 Zakim has joined #fx 20:59:39 cabanier has joined #fx 20:59:40 Zakim, this will be 3983 20:59:40 ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute 20:59:41 Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference 20:59:41 Date: 05 March 2012 20:59:53 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2012JanMar/0146.html 21:00:01 chair: ed 21:00:20 smfr has joined #fx 21:00:30 GA_FXTF()4:00PM has now started 21:00:37 +??P0 21:00:44 Zakim, ??P0 is me 21:00:44 +ed; got it 21:01:12 +Doug_Schepers 21:01:35 +Oliver_Goldman 21:01:45 krit has joined #fx 21:01:47 +smfr 21:02:15 Zakim, who's here? 21:02:15 On the phone I see ed, Doug_Schepers, Oliver_Goldman, smfr 21:02:16 On IRC I see krit, smfr, cabanier, Zakim, RRSAgent, Tav, dbaron, heycam|away, stearns, fantasai, vhardy, plinss, krijnh, hober, CSSWG_LogBot, ed, paul___irish, trackbot, shepazu 21:02:35 Zakim, Oliver_Goldman is me 21:02:35 +krit; got it 21:02:46 +Tav 21:02:48 +cabanier 21:04:20 Zakim, pick a scribe 21:04:20 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose krit 21:05:15 scribenick: krit 21:06:04 topic: css transforms open issues 21:06:07 ChrisL has joined #fx 21:06:26 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Transforms&resolution 21:06:43 -krit 21:06:46 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Transforms&resolution=--- 21:06:50 +ChrisL 21:08:42 if we resolve it, i can take the action to publish it, likely on thursday 21:09:00 + +1.415.832.aaaa 21:09:27 scribenick: smfr 21:09:28 -ed 21:09:36 krit: question is what we do with the test suite 21:09:46 particularly with SVG 21:09:46 smfr: are you scribing now? 21:09:49 yes 21:10:01 smfr: thanks. I'll do it next time 21:10:08 ChrisL: SVG is using the CSS model now, so the tests will just get picked up 21:10:30 tests will get put in separate directories to people can just run some of them, but all the tests will get picked up 21:10:37 krit: should we have SVG-only tests? 21:10:58 ChrisL: CSS says they have to be XHTML1, and it generates XHTML1, HMTL4 and HTML print 21:11:10 not sure if we can submit HTML5 tests now 21:11:19 dino has joined #fx 21:11:33 +??P0 21:11:40 don't know how HTML5 has been integrated in (generated, or as the submission format) 21:11:54 ChrisL: we can have both svg-only and not 21:11:54 zakim, i am P0 21:11:54 sorry, dino, I do not see a party named 'P0' 21:12:01 zakim, i am ??P0 21:12:01 +dino; got it 21:12:14 krit: does CSS transforms say anything about what kinds of tests we need 21:12:36 ChrisL: we need to test HTML with CSS transforms applied, and SVG with CSS transforms applied 21:12:41 s/test/tests 21:12:56 others would be good too 21:13:27 Tav: we talked about testing at the last SVG meeting 21:13:35 will be awhile before we get our new system set up 21:14:02 ChrisL: at last meeting resolved to change how SVG tests are structured, so they have an ; easier for Shepherd system 21:14:11 +??P8 21:14:14 krit: does the WG want SVG-only tests as well? 21:14:40 ChrisL: yes, there's value in that e.g. for testing SVG inside CSS-transformed HTML 21:14:49 krit: what would SVG-only tests look like? 21:15:33 ChrisL: it's pretty easy 21:15:56 ChrisL: we can compare with SVG tests using attributes, for ref testing 21:16:14 cabanier has joined #fx 21:16:32 see here http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements 21:16:40 smfr: Dirk is asking about the format for an SVG-only test 21:17:13 Tav: if this is OK I can go ahead and start making some tests 21:18:11 Topic: open CSS transforms issues 21:18:17 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Transforms&resolution 21:18:35 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Transforms&resolution=--- (note the ---) 21:18:56 krit: issue with SVG transforms and computed style 21:19:11 across HTML and SVG 21:19:29 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15431 21:21:02 issues with getComputedStyle and transform, transform origin etc 21:21:41 smfr: we decided that for transform we'd return a list of functions 21:21:54 krit: what about transform-origin etc? 21:22:01 smfr: for most (e.g. backface-visibility) it's easy 21:22:17 transform-origin depends on the resolution of the issue to match background-position 21:22:35 we'll get on the CSS agenda for this week 21:22:50 krit: issue with animations of translateX() vs. translate() 21:22:57 link? 21:23:10 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14715 21:23:14 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15758 21:23:31 ah, not mine 21:24:04 dino: you can go from translateX to translateY just fine 21:24:18 krit: what is the computed style during such an animation? 21:24:33 dino: it could be translate(x, y) 21:25:38 krit: if the functions don't match, computed style would be magic (matrix) 21:26:00 dino: what's best for developers? it's best if we can match functions 21:26:37 krit: computed style would have to be not just translateX and translateY 21:27:20 dino: if we can avoid falling back to matrix more often, it's better for authors 21:27:33 krit: same for skewX, skewY, scaleX, scaleY 21:27:35 dino: rotate is hard 21:27:48 rotateX -> rotate3d(….) 21:27:57 dino: just handle the common ones 21:28:17 there was a complaint about dropping skew ... 21:28:22 dino: this is different from what webkit implements 21:28:33 dino: yes 21:28:39 krit: also other browsers 21:29:14 krit: in SVG you match the transform functions exactliy 21:29:31 s/exactliy/exactly 21:30:13 krit: can we say that translateX, translateY and translate(x, y) are different types 21:31:21 smfr: conflict between what browsers implement and what's best for authors 21:31:29 ed: what content would break? 21:31:44 dino: that would be content that is relying on weird behavior 21:32:21 schepers: would the content be using prefixes anyway? 21:32:26 dino: yes 21:33:29 schepers: is webkit willing to change 21:33:30 dino: yes 21:34:42 to clarify, the content that would change with these improved rules would be transform lists that mix scale and rotation. An animation from just translateX to just translateY would be identical with the fallback interpolation via matrix. 21:35:36 smfr: spec should have "canonical" transform functions, like translate3d() and describe translateX as a shorthand 21:35:36 dirk: what about translateX translateX translateX -> translateX 21:35:51 smfr: I don't think we should support lists with different lengths 21:35:56 translateZ -> translateY animations also fine? 21:36:12 krit: we should match one by one 21:36:48 ACTION: dino to look at current rules and make a proposal for transform animations 21:36:48 Created ACTION-72 - Look at current rules and make a proposal for transform animations [on Dean Jackson - due 2012-03-12]. 21:37:39 schepers: are we going to publish a new WG? 21:37:52 ed: not enough people here. we can resolve for SVG here 21:38:10 s/ enough people / enough CSSWG people / 21:38:34 RESOLVED: SVG working group agrees to publish a new version of the CSS transforms spec with recent edits 21:38:54 Topic: linearRGB vs sRGB for filter effects 21:38:59 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2012JanMar/0078.html 21:39:28 ChrisL: it's not about color interpolation, it's how you'd specify that for a filter shorthand 21:39:35 Zakim: shut up 21:39:43 ChrisL: it's well defined what the default is 21:39:50 Tav: no it's not 21:40:06 ChrisL: assumed that it should match SVG 21:40:21 Tav: WebKit implements sRGB 21:40:27 we need a way to change the default 21:40:41 could we reuse the color-interpolation-filters property? 21:40:53 ChrisL: you said you wanted opacity to not be in linear space(?) 21:41:07 Tav: want consistency; what should be the default 21:41:38 ChrisL: either we have the default be linear the same as longhand filters, or we have a keyword to allow authors to have control 21:41:50 Tav: the Adobe apps do it the wrong way, and Flash player 21:42:04 I thought that was Rik? 21:42:09 not all of them do in fact 21:42:42 smfr: WebKit hasn't picked a way; it hasn't really be looked at carefully 21:43:03 dino: what's the right thing to do here? 21:43:17 dino: CSS doesn't what the colors are in 21:43:29 ChrisL: the colors are specified to be sRGB 21:43:38 ChrisL: but which case do you do math in for filters? 21:43:38 s/CSS doesn't what/CSS doesn't specify what/ 21:43:58 ChrisL: linear interpolation in filters needs to happen in a linear colorspace 21:44:15 Rik: but you can use another colorspace 21:44:26 ChrisL: but that isn't necessarily correct. Linear is correct 21:45:00 dino: for every filter op, you'd convert sRGB into linear, run the filters, then convert back, then composite 21:45:03 ChrisL: correct 21:45:43 -Tav 21:46:02 ChrisL: longhand filters spec says it's linear, and shorthand filters should match 21:46:19 dino: do you only have to worry about the colorspace going into and coming out of the filter? 21:46:20 we don't necessarily need to scribe my education of color spaces :) 21:46:21 +Tav 21:46:59 21:47:09 :D 21:47:30 dino: what about a no-op filter like an feMerge? 21:47:37 ChrisL: it would look different 21:48:08 colorspace would affect the darkness of the antialiasing between the colors 21:48:46 dino: now, with no-op shorthands, e.g. grayscale(0) 21:49:07 ChrisL: that would not cahnge 21:49:12 s/cahnge/change 21:50:43 21:50:56 q+ 21:51:20 Tav: simple linear blending is not liberalized. there's an inconsistency in the spec 21:51:40 s/Tav/Rik 21:52:09 21:52:43 Rik: real question is what the shorthands should o 21:52:50 q- 21:53:01 ChrisL: they should do it the proper way (linear), and we should give them a keyword if authors want other behaivor 21:53:22 ChrisL: would need a new keyword on the shorthand filter 21:53:44 ChrisL: what we really want is a single value for the whole filter 21:54:07 smfr: or maybe another CSS property 21:54:34 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/painting.html#ColorInterpolationFiltersProperty 21:54:42 smfr: is this different from SVG's color-interpolation property? 21:54:43 ChrisL: no 21:54:57 so this is just color-interpolation-filters 21:55:19 ed: we have this in the filters spec 21:55:28 ed: or maybe not 21:55:50 ChrisL: so that property needs to be in the filters spec 21:56:17 ACTION: ed add color-interpolation-filters property to the filters spec, say that it applies to shorthand filters in HTML 21:56:17 Created ACTION-73 - Add color-interpolation-filters property to the filters spec, say that it applies to shorthand filters in HTML [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-03-12]. 21:56:49 ed: are we happy with the defaults? 21:56:50 ChrisL: yes 21:57:03 Rik: ok as long as there's a way to turn it off 21:57:34 ed: good to start with what we have for SVG 21:59:05 ? problem with clamping for the compositing spec 21:59:26 talk about next time 21:59:31 -dino 21:59:33 -ChrisL 21:59:35 -ed 21:59:37 -Doug_Schepers 21:59:37 -cabanier 21:59:39 -Tav 21:59:41 - +1.415.832.aaaa 21:59:41 -smfr 21:59:41 GA_FXTF()4:00PM has ended 21:59:41 Attendees were ed, Doug_Schepers, smfr, krit, Tav, cabanier, ChrisL, +1.415.832.aaaa, dino 21:59:54 ed: you'll take care of the minutes? 22:00:05 i have to run 22:00:21 trackbot, end telcon 22:00:21 Zakim, list attendees 22:00:21 sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 22:00:29 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 22:00:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-minutes.html trackbot 22:00:30 RRSAgent, bye 22:00:30 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-actions.rdf : 22:00:30 ACTION: dino to look at current rules and make a proposal for transform animations [1] 22:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-irc#T21-36-48 22:00:30 ACTION: ed add color-interpolation-filters property to the filters spec, say that it applies to shorthand filters in HTML [2] 22:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-irc#T21-56-17