IRC log of fx on 2012-03-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:59:36 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
20:59:38 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
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20:59:39 [cabanier]
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Zakim, this will be 3983
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ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
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Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
20:59:41 [trackbot]
Date: 05 March 2012
20:59:53 [ed]
21:00:01 [ed]
chair: ed
21:00:20 [smfr]
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GA_FXTF()4:00PM has now started
21:00:37 [Zakim]
21:00:44 [ed]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
21:00:44 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
21:01:12 [Zakim]
21:01:35 [Zakim]
21:01:45 [krit]
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21:01:47 [Zakim]
21:02:15 [krit]
Zakim, who's here?
21:02:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ed, Doug_Schepers, Oliver_Goldman, smfr
21:02:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see krit, smfr, cabanier, Zakim, RRSAgent, Tav, dbaron, heycam|away, stearns, fantasai, vhardy, plinss, krijnh, hober, CSSWG_LogBot, ed, paul___irish, trackbot, shepazu
21:02:35 [krit]
Zakim, Oliver_Goldman is me
21:02:35 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
21:02:46 [Zakim]
21:02:48 [Zakim]
21:04:20 [ed]
Zakim, pick a scribe
21:04:20 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose krit
21:05:15 [shepazu]
scribenick: krit
21:06:04 [ed]
topic: css transforms open issues
21:06:07 [ChrisL]
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21:06:26 [ed]
21:06:43 [Zakim]
21:06:46 [smfr]
21:06:50 [Zakim]
21:08:42 [ChrisL]
if we resolve it, i can take the action to publish it, likely on thursday
21:09:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aaaa
21:09:27 [smfr]
scribenick: smfr
21:09:28 [Zakim]
21:09:36 [smfr]
krit: question is what we do with the test suite
21:09:46 [smfr]
particularly with SVG
21:09:46 [krit]
smfr: are you scribing now?
21:09:49 [smfr]
21:10:01 [krit]
smfr: thanks. I'll do it next time
21:10:08 [smfr]
ChrisL: SVG is using the CSS model now, so the tests will just get picked up
21:10:30 [smfr]
tests will get put in separate directories to people can just run some of them, but all the tests will get picked up
21:10:37 [smfr]
krit: should we have SVG-only tests?
21:10:58 [smfr]
ChrisL: CSS says they have to be XHTML1, and it generates XHTML1, HMTL4 and HTML print
21:11:10 [smfr]
not sure if we can submit HTML5 tests now
21:11:19 [dino]
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21:11:33 [Zakim]
21:11:40 [smfr]
don't know how HTML5 has been integrated in (generated, or as the submission format)
21:11:54 [smfr]
ChrisL: we can have both svg-only and not
21:11:54 [dino]
zakim, i am P0
21:11:54 [Zakim]
sorry, dino, I do not see a party named 'P0'
21:12:01 [dino]
zakim, i am ??P0
21:12:01 [Zakim]
+dino; got it
21:12:14 [smfr]
krit: does CSS transforms say anything about what kinds of tests we need
21:12:36 [smfr]
ChrisL: we need to test HTML with CSS transforms applied, and SVG with CSS transforms applied
21:12:41 [smfr]
21:12:56 [smfr]
others would be good too
21:13:27 [smfr]
Tav: we talked about testing at the last SVG meeting
21:13:35 [smfr]
will be awhile before we get our new system set up
21:14:02 [smfr]
ChrisL: at last meeting resolved to change how SVG tests are structured, so they have an <html> <head>; easier for Shepherd system
21:14:11 [Zakim]
21:14:14 [smfr]
krit: does the WG want SVG-only tests as well?
21:14:40 [smfr]
ChrisL: yes, there's value in that e.g. for testing SVG inside CSS-transformed HTML
21:14:49 [smfr]
krit: what would SVG-only tests look like?
21:15:33 [smfr]
ChrisL: it's pretty easy
21:15:56 [smfr]
ChrisL: we can compare with SVG tests using attributes, for ref testing
21:16:14 [cabanier]
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21:16:32 [ChrisL]
see here
21:16:40 [smfr]
smfr: Dirk is asking about the format for an SVG-only test
21:17:13 [smfr]
Tav: if this is OK I can go ahead and start making some tests
21:18:11 [smfr]
Topic: open CSS transforms issues
21:18:17 [ChrisL]
21:18:35 [smfr] (note the ---)
21:18:56 [smfr]
krit: issue with SVG transforms and computed style
21:19:11 [smfr]
across HTML and SVG
21:19:29 [krit]
21:21:02 [smfr]
issues with getComputedStyle and transform, transform origin etc
21:21:41 [smfr]
smfr: we decided that for transform we'd return a list of functions
21:21:54 [smfr]
krit: what about transform-origin etc?
21:22:01 [smfr]
smfr: for most (e.g. backface-visibility) it's easy
21:22:17 [smfr]
transform-origin depends on the resolution of the issue to match background-position
21:22:35 [smfr]
we'll get on the CSS agenda for this week
21:22:50 [smfr]
krit: issue with animations of translateX() vs. translate()
21:22:57 [ed]
21:23:10 [krit]
21:23:14 [smfr]
21:23:31 [smfr]
ah, not mine
21:24:04 [smfr]
dino: you can go from translateX to translateY just fine
21:24:18 [smfr]
krit: what is the computed style during such an animation?
21:24:33 [smfr]
dino: it could be translate(x, y)
21:25:38 [smfr]
krit: if the functions don't match, computed style would be magic (matrix)
21:26:00 [smfr]
dino: what's best for developers? it's best if we can match functions
21:26:37 [smfr]
krit: computed style would have to be not just translateX and translateY
21:27:20 [smfr]
dino: if we can avoid falling back to matrix more often, it's better for authors
21:27:33 [smfr]
krit: same for skewX, skewY, scaleX, scaleY
21:27:35 [smfr]
dino: rotate is hard
21:27:48 [smfr]
rotateX -> rotate3d(….)
21:27:57 [smfr]
dino: just handle the common ones
21:28:17 [ChrisL]
there was a complaint about dropping skew ...
21:28:22 [smfr]
dino: this is different from what webkit implements
21:28:33 [smfr]
dino: yes
21:28:39 [smfr]
krit: also other browsers
21:29:14 [smfr]
krit: in SVG you match the transform functions exactliy
21:29:31 [smfr]
21:30:13 [smfr]
krit: can we say that translateX, translateY and translate(x, y) are different types
21:31:21 [smfr]
smfr: conflict between what browsers implement and what's best for authors
21:31:29 [smfr]
ed: what content would break?
21:31:44 [smfr]
dino: that would be content that is relying on weird behavior
21:32:21 [smfr]
schepers: would the content be using prefixes anyway?
21:32:26 [smfr]
dino: yes
21:33:29 [smfr]
schepers: is webkit willing to change
21:33:30 [smfr]
dino: yes
21:34:42 [dino]
to clarify, the content that would change with these improved rules would be transform lists that mix scale and rotation. An animation from just translateX to just translateY would be identical with the fallback interpolation via matrix.
21:35:36 [smfr]
smfr: spec should have "canonical" transform functions, like translate3d() and describe translateX as a shorthand
21:35:36 [dino]
dirk: what about translateX translateX translateX -> translateX
21:35:51 [dino]
smfr: I don't think we should support lists with different lengths
21:35:56 [ed]
translateZ -> translateY animations also fine?
21:36:12 [smfr]
krit: we should match one by one
21:36:48 [smfr]
ACTION: dino to look at current rules and make a proposal for transform animations
21:36:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-72 - Look at current rules and make a proposal for transform animations [on Dean Jackson - due 2012-03-12].
21:37:39 [smfr]
schepers: are we going to publish a new WG?
21:37:52 [smfr]
ed: not enough people here. we can resolve for SVG here
21:38:10 [ed]
s/ enough people / enough CSSWG people /
21:38:34 [smfr]
RESOLVED: SVG working group agrees to publish a new version of the CSS transforms spec with recent edits
21:38:54 [smfr]
Topic: linearRGB vs sRGB for filter effects
21:38:59 [smfr]
21:39:28 [smfr]
ChrisL: it's not about color interpolation, it's how you'd specify that for a filter shorthand
21:39:35 [smfr]
Zakim: shut up
21:39:43 [smfr]
ChrisL: it's well defined what the default is
21:39:50 [smfr]
Tav: no it's not
21:40:06 [smfr]
ChrisL: assumed that it should match SVG
21:40:21 [smfr]
Tav: WebKit implements sRGB
21:40:27 [smfr]
we need a way to change the default
21:40:41 [ed]
could we reuse the color-interpolation-filters property?
21:40:53 [smfr]
ChrisL: you said you wanted opacity to not be in linear space(?)
21:41:07 [smfr]
Tav: want consistency; what should be the default
21:41:38 [smfr]
ChrisL: either we have the default be linear the same as longhand filters, or we have a keyword to allow authors to have control
21:41:50 [smfr]
Tav: the Adobe apps do it the wrong way, and Flash player
21:42:04 [dino]
I thought that was Rik?
21:42:09 [ChrisL]
not all of them do in fact
21:42:42 [smfr]
smfr: WebKit hasn't picked a way; it hasn't really be looked at carefully
21:43:03 [smfr]
dino: what's the right thing to do here?
21:43:17 [smfr]
dino: CSS doesn't what the colors are in
21:43:29 [smfr]
ChrisL: the colors are specified to be sRGB
21:43:38 [smfr]
ChrisL: but which case do you do math in for filters?
21:43:38 [ed]
s/CSS doesn't what/CSS doesn't specify what/
21:43:58 [smfr]
ChrisL: linear interpolation in filters needs to happen in a linear colorspace
21:44:15 [smfr]
Rik: but you can use another colorspace
21:44:26 [smfr]
ChrisL: but that isn't necessarily correct. Linear is correct
21:45:00 [smfr]
dino: for every filter op, you'd convert sRGB into linear, run the filters, then convert back, then composite
21:45:03 [smfr]
ChrisL: correct
21:45:43 [Zakim]
21:46:02 [smfr]
ChrisL: longhand filters spec says it's linear, and shorthand filters should match
21:46:19 [smfr]
dino: do you only have to worry about the colorspace going into and coming out of the filter?
21:46:20 [dino]
we don't necessarily need to scribe my education of color spaces :)
21:46:21 [Zakim]
21:46:59 [smfr]
<more education of dino>
21:47:09 [krit]
21:47:30 [smfr]
dino: what about a no-op filter like an feMerge?
21:47:37 [smfr]
ChrisL: it would look different
21:48:08 [smfr]
colorspace would affect the darkness of the antialiasing between the colors
21:48:46 [smfr]
dino: now, with no-op shorthands, e.g. grayscale(0)
21:49:07 [smfr]
ChrisL: that would not cahnge
21:49:12 [smfr]
21:50:43 [smfr]
<discussion of various examples>
21:50:56 [shepazu]
21:51:20 [smfr]
Tav: simple linear blending is not liberalized. there's an inconsistency in the spec
21:51:40 [smfr]
21:52:09 [smfr]
<discussion of adobe tools behavior>
21:52:43 [smfr]
Rik: real question is what the shorthands should o
21:52:50 [shepazu]
21:53:01 [smfr]
ChrisL: they should do it the proper way (linear), and we should give them a keyword if authors want other behaivor
21:53:22 [smfr]
ChrisL: would need a new keyword on the shorthand filter
21:53:44 [smfr]
ChrisL: what we really want is a single value for the whole filter
21:54:07 [smfr]
smfr: or maybe another CSS property
21:54:34 [ed]
21:54:42 [smfr]
smfr: is this different from SVG's color-interpolation property?
21:54:43 [smfr]
ChrisL: no
21:54:57 [smfr]
so this is just color-interpolation-filters
21:55:19 [smfr]
ed: we have this in the filters spec
21:55:28 [smfr]
ed: or maybe not
21:55:50 [smfr]
ChrisL: so that property needs to be in the filters spec
21:56:17 [smfr]
ACTION: ed add color-interpolation-filters property to the filters spec, say that it applies to shorthand filters in HTML
21:56:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-73 - Add color-interpolation-filters property to the filters spec, say that it applies to shorthand filters in HTML [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-03-12].
21:56:49 [smfr]
ed: are we happy with the defaults?
21:56:50 [smfr]
ChrisL: yes
21:57:03 [smfr]
Rik: ok as long as there's a way to turn it off
21:57:34 [smfr]
ed: good to start with what we have for SVG
21:59:05 [smfr]
? problem with clamping for the compositing spec
21:59:26 [smfr]
talk about next time
21:59:31 [Zakim]
21:59:33 [Zakim]
21:59:35 [Zakim]
21:59:37 [Zakim]
21:59:37 [Zakim]
21:59:39 [Zakim]
21:59:41 [Zakim]
- +1.415.832.aaaa
21:59:41 [Zakim]
21:59:41 [Zakim]
GA_FXTF()4:00PM has ended
21:59:41 [Zakim]
Attendees were ed, Doug_Schepers, smfr, krit, Tav, cabanier, ChrisL, +1.415.832.aaaa, dino
21:59:54 [smfr]
ed: you'll take care of the minutes?
22:00:05 [smfr]
i have to run
22:00:21 [ed]
trackbot, end telcon
22:00:21 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
22:00:21 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
22:00:29 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
22:00:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
22:00:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
22:00:30 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
22:00:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: dino to look at current rules and make a proposal for transform animations [1]
22:00:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
22:00:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ed add color-interpolation-filters property to the filters spec, say that it applies to shorthand filters in HTML [2]
22:00:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in