IRC log of rd on 2012-02-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:27:00 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rd
14:27:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:27:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:27:04 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7394
14:27:04 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:27:05 [trackbot]
Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:27:05 [trackbot]
Date: 29 February 2012
14:27:10 [sharper]
Chair: Harper_Simon
14:27:10 [sharper]
Agenda+ Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)
14:27:11 [sharper]
Agenda+ Pre-Call Release Discussion -
14:27:11 [sharper]
Agenda+ W3C Note Editing
14:27:11 [sharper]
Agenda+ Any Other Business
14:27:36 [sharper]
zakim, delete item 1
14:27:36 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments), dropped
14:28:07 [sharper]
zakim, delete item 2
14:28:07 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Mobile Topic Pre-Call, dropped
14:28:11 [sharper]
zakim, delete item 3
14:28:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Mobile Topic Selection of Planning Committee, dropped
14:28:13 [Zakim]
WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has now started
14:28:17 [sharper]
zakim, delete item 4
14:28:17 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Mobile Topic Selection of Scientific Committee, dropped
14:28:21 [Zakim]
14:28:21 [sharper]
zakim, delete item 5
14:28:22 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Continuation of W3C Note Group Edit, dropped
14:28:26 [sharper]
zakim, delete item 6
14:28:26 [Zakim]
agendum 6, Any Other Business, dropped
14:28:31 [shadi]
zakim, ??p0 is me
14:28:31 [Zakim]
+shadi; got it
14:28:33 [sharper]
zakim, save agenda
14:28:39 [Zakim]
ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to
14:28:40 [sharper]
zakim, agenda?
14:28:41 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:28:41 [Zakim]
7. Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments) [from sharper]
14:28:41 [Zakim]
8. Pre-Call Release Discussion - [from sharper]
14:28:41 [Zakim]
9. W3C Note Editing [from sharper]
14:28:41 [Zakim]
10. Any Other Business [from sharper]
14:28:51 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 7
14:28:51 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)" taken up [from sharper]
14:29:24 [sharper]
regrets: Kouroupetroglou_Christos, McCathieNevile_Charles, Yesilada_Yeliz, O'Connor_Joshue
14:29:45 [sharper]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:29:50 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:29:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sharper
14:31:31 [sharper]
regrets+ Thiessen_Peter
14:31:53 [Zakim]
14:32:02 [giorgio]
giorgio has joined #rd
14:33:03 [sharper]
present: Harper_Simon, Vigo_Markel, Brajnik_Giorgio, Abou-Zahra_Shadi
14:33:03 [Zakim]
14:33:18 [sharper]
zakim, ??P2 is sharper
14:33:18 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
14:33:37 [Zakim]
14:33:51 [markel]
markel has joined #rd
14:34:05 [sharper]
zakim, ??P3 is giorgio
14:34:05 [Zakim]
+giorgio; got it
14:34:34 [Zakim]
14:34:51 [sharper]
zakim, ??P4 is markel
14:34:51 [Zakim]
+markel; got it
14:35:05 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:35:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see shadi, Klaus/Johannes/Thomas, sharper, giorgio, markel
14:35:05 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:35:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sharper
14:36:06 [Yehya]
Yehya has joined #rd
14:36:29 [shadi]
zakim, klaus/johannes/thomas is really Yehya
14:36:29 [Zakim]
+Yehya; got it
14:36:33 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:36:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see shadi, Yehya, sharper, giorgio, markel
14:37:15 [Peter]
Peter has joined #rd
14:37:44 [shadi]
scribe: shadi
14:37:53 [shadi]
14:38:05 [Zakim]
14:38:13 [shadi]
zakim, close agendum 7
14:38:13 [Zakim]
agendum 7, Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments), closed
14:38:15 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:38:15 [Zakim]
8. Pre-Call Release Discussion - [from sharper]
14:38:19 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 8
14:38:19 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Pre-Call Release Discussion -" taken up [from sharper]
14:38:35 [Peter]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
14:38:35 [Zakim]
+Peter; got it
14:38:44 [Peter]
Zakim, mute me
14:38:44 [Zakim]
Peter should now be muted
14:38:48 [Peter]
(sorry late)
14:38:55 [sharper]
present+ Thiessen_Peter
14:38:59 [sharper]
regrets- Thiessen_Peter
14:39:07 [Peter]
(sorry will have to leave at 4:00 pulled into a meeting)
14:39:18 [shadi]
SH: anything from other WAI groups?
14:39:27 [shadi]
SAZ: no responses for a week now
14:40:02 [shadi]
...should reping them but proceed, assuming there are no objections
14:40:16 [shadi]
SH: can drop copyright issue for now, if people agree
14:40:24 [shadi]
...just on the pre-call
14:40:27 [Peter]
Yup, sounds good Simon (to me)
14:40:30 [shadi]
...then discuss later
14:40:30 [markel]
fine to me
14:40:34 [giorgio]
good fo me
14:40:34 [shadi]
...sound ok?
14:41:06 [shadi]
RESOLUTION: drop copyright policy clause from the pre-call and rediscuss before the main announcement
14:41:17 [shadi]
zakim, clsoe agendum 8
14:41:17 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'clsoe agendum 8', shadi
14:41:21 [shadi]
zakim, close agendum 8
14:41:21 [Zakim]
agendum 8, Pre-Call Release Discussion -, closed
14:41:23 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:41:23 [Zakim]
9. W3C Note Editing [from sharper]
14:41:28 [Peter]
+1 (changes :)
14:41:29 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 9
14:41:29 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "W3C Note Editing" taken up [from sharper]
14:41:42 [shadi]
SH: people agree with Yeliz's comments?
14:41:50 [shadi]
...more discussion needed?
14:42:01 [shadi]
GB: have another version with the changes
14:42:05 [shadi]
...hope to close today
14:42:14 [shadi]
...then will circulate updated version
14:43:07 [shadi]
q+ to request a pedantic change (different point)
14:43:24 [shadi]
SH: main issue seems to be about section 3.7
14:43:47 [shadi]
MV: most of section 3 describes the papers while 3.7 describes the discussion
14:44:12 [shadi]
SH: could change the title to something like "concluding remarks" to clarify the content
14:44:47 [shadi]
[[3.7 Questions]]
14:45:45 [sharper]
14:45:54 [shadi]
ack me
14:45:54 [Zakim]
shadi, you wanted to request a pedantic change (different point)
14:46:39 [markel]
14:47:00 [sharper]
ack m
14:47:06 [shadi]
SAZ: propose to continue using the term "website accessibility metrics" rather than "web accessibility metrics"
14:47:36 [shadi] reflect that we only mean metrics for websites rather than web accessibility
14:47:50 [shadi]
...which would need other metrics in addition to websites
14:48:05 [giorgio]
14:48:12 [sharper]
ack g
14:49:00 [shadi]
MV: think capital "Web" (rather "web") would denote all aspects of the web
14:49:11 [shadi]
...most papers talked about indiivdual pages
14:49:24 [shadi]
GB: what is the risk of saying "web accessibility metrics"?
14:50:55 [giorgio]
14:51:23 [sharper]
ack g
14:51:28 [shadi]
SAZ: frequent myth that web content accessibility is all of accessibility
14:51:57 [shadi]
...need to reiterate where we can that we understand this aspect
14:52:25 [shadi]
GB: not sure we want to confine ourselves to web content only
14:52:40 [markel]
to me "website" has a different connotation
14:52:44 [shadi]
...also not sure that we are only discussing web content
14:53:06 [markel]
if we say "website accessibility metrics" its metrics for the WHOLE website
14:53:16 [markel]
and single web pages are left out
14:55:17 [giorgio]
14:55:43 [sharper]
ack g
14:55:46 [markel]
14:55:48 [shadi]
SAZ: how about a brief section to describe this scope?
14:55:54 [shadi]
GB: is it necessary?
14:56:19 [shadi]
SAZ: I think so, often misunderstanding that "web accessibility" is "web content" only
14:56:27 [shadi]
GB: what do others think?
14:56:46 [shadi]
SH: ok with me
14:56:47 [Peter_Thiessen]
+1 (behavior for example is often not included in people
14:56:58 [Peter_Thiessen]
's assumptions about what web accessibility is)
14:57:15 [shadi]
MV: ok with me but not sure addresses the issue that shadi is talking about
14:57:17 [Peter_Thiessen]
(behavior = browser events and user events :)
14:57:28 [markel]
14:57:40 [shadi]
14:58:04 [shadi]
SH: agree with trying a sentence or so to clarify that
14:58:22 [Peter_Thiessen]
14:58:27 [shadi]
[[Secondly, we wanted to know whether accessibility metrics ...]]
14:58:42 [shadi]
[[4. A Research Roadmap for Web Accessibility Metrics]]
14:58:47 [Peter_Thiessen]
(Sadly have to run to a meeting :( best of luck finishing up and have a great week - cheers)
14:59:07 [Zakim]
14:59:35 [shadi]
SAZ: sentence could fit here but editors discretion
14:59:47 [shadi]
[[4.1 Ensuring Metric Quality]]
15:00:03 [shadi]
15:00:26 [sharper]
15:00:34 [shadi]
[[4.1.2 Reliability]]
15:00:43 [sharper]
15:00:56 [shadi]
[[4.1.3 Sensitivity]]
15:01:42 [shadi]
SH: less "meat" on section 4.1.3 and 4.1.4
15:02:00 [shadi] it because less input from the webinar or other reasons?
15:02:16 [shadi]
GB: think validity and reliability more important
15:02:23 [shadi]
...also more references to discuss
15:02:26 [shadi]
15:02:50 [shadi]
SH: could clarify that there is less work there
15:03:03 [shadi]
...but not imply that they are less important
15:03:06 [sharper]
ack s
15:03:47 [markel]
15:04:02 [giorgio]
15:04:36 [sharper]
ack m
15:05:02 [shadi]
SAZ: (1) agree that lack of discussion is an important point to message in the document
15:05:35 [shadi]
...(2) consider putting the two last items into one section like "other considerations"
15:05:50 [shadi]
...(3) seems to be missing "complexity" aspect too
15:06:11 [shadi]
...(4) in 4.1.3 we are mixing "website testing" and "web accessibility"
15:06:27 [shadi]
MV: agree
15:06:33 [giorgio]
15:06:39 [shadi]
...we specifically looked at reliability and validity more
15:06:47 [shadi]
SH: need to be upfront about it
15:06:52 [shadi]
...and highlight these aspects
15:07:04 [shadi]
[[4.2 A Corpus for Metrics Benchmarking]]
15:07:17 [shadi]
15:07:25 [markel]
15:07:33 [shadi]
ack me
15:07:33 [sharper]
ack s
15:08:00 [sharper]
ack m
15:08:03 [shadi]
SAZ: agree with the paragraph
15:08:17 [shadi]
...sent comments to the editors with additional references for considerations
15:08:30 [shadi]
MV: already in new version, useful references
15:08:44 [markel]
15:08:44 [shadi]
[[4.3 Credibility issues]]
15:08:46 [shadi]
15:08:50 [shadi]
ack m
15:08:51 [sharper]
ack m
15:09:02 [shadi]
MV: raised by Annika on the panel
15:09:10 [shadi]
...also Shadi provided some comments
15:09:22 [shadi]
...think it is important point with several issues
15:09:27 [shadi]
...maybe need to expand
15:09:32 [shadi]
...need more input
15:09:51 [sharper]
ack s
15:09:53 [shadi]
SH: related to how we frame it
15:09:58 [shadi]
...could go into 4.2
15:11:10 [shadi]
SAZ: agree with putting in 4.2
15:11:12 [markel]
15:11:17 [giorgio]
15:11:22 [shadi]
...also agree that it is very important very delicate
15:11:47 [shadi]
...especially policy makers love numbers even if no one knows what they mean
15:11:51 [shadi]
15:12:17 [shadi]
ack m
15:12:46 [shadi]
MV: understand credibility as a side topic of validity and reliability
15:12:47 [sharper]
ack g
15:12:57 [shadi] agree with considering putting it in section 4.2
15:13:04 [markel]
i meant side-effect
15:13:24 [shadi]
GB: need to think more about the relationship to other items in 4.2
15:13:37 [shadi]
...occurs to me we did not explain Annika's point well
15:13:51 [shadi]
...need to clarify point more clearly
15:14:10 [shadi]
MV: relates to reliability, no?
15:14:24 [shadi]
GB: yes, low validity in tools related to low credibility
15:14:39 [shadi]
[[4.4.1 User-tailored metrics]]
15:14:40 [shadi]
15:14:53 [sharper]
15:15:36 [markel]
that's doable
15:15:51 [shadi]
[[4.4.2 Dealing with dynamic content]]
15:16:14 [shadi]
15:16:42 [shadi]
GB: maybe could talk about WAI-ARIA and ask for more explorations in this aspect
15:16:53 [markel]
good idea Giorgio +1
15:17:05 [shadi]
ack me
15:17:06 [sharper]
ack s
15:18:10 [shadi]
SAZ: seems to talk about two aspects of "dynamic"
15:18:24 [shadi]
...interactivity of scripting/interaction/etc
15:18:26 [markel]
15:18:27 [giorgio]
15:18:37 [shadi]
...and changes over time (such as wiki etc)
15:18:48 [shadi]
15:18:50 [shadi]
15:19:08 [sharper]
ack s
15:20:03 [shadi]
SAZ: think it doesn't do the document justice
15:20:10 [shadi] much good content in the document
15:20:23 [shadi]
...may need to reflect the discussion more in the conclusion
15:20:29 [shadi]
MV: agree with Shadi
15:21:05 [shadi]
Topic: Resolving open issues on the draft
15:21:19 [giorgio]
15:21:27 [shadi]
SH: some open issues on section 3.7 and other sections
15:21:32 [shadi]
...can do it next week?
15:21:35 [shadi]
MV: yes
15:21:39 [markel]
15:21:56 [shadi]
SH: will put on the agenda for next week
15:22:04 [sharper]
ack m
15:22:04 [shadi]
...only to discuss these parts
15:22:17 [shadi]
...then put into a new draft for group review
15:22:31 [shadi]
MV: suggest to include the other changes discussed so far
15:23:01 [shadi]
SH: since substantial changes, please highlight them
15:23:03 [shadi]
15:23:24 [sharper]
ack s
15:24:18 [giorgio]
15:24:38 [markel]
15:24:49 [sharper]
acj g
15:24:51 [sharper]
ack g
15:24:56 [shadi]
SAZ: usually have an appendix called "document changes" or such
15:25:15 [markel]
I agree with GB
15:25:18 [markel]
15:25:32 [shadi]
...please send me HTML and I can cross-link the two versions
15:26:34 [shadi]
GB: how about work with open office comments?
15:26:49 [shadi]
...for this round before publishing first editor draft
15:27:04 [shadi]
SAZ: fine, as long as no accessibility constraints
15:28:12 [giorgio]
you are welcome Simon
15:28:49 [shadi]
MV: question from shadi about credits
15:29:28 [giorgio]
we added the following stuff:
15:29:31 [giorgio]
Some excerpts of this document are extracted from an initial brainstorming document at where a number of members of the RDWG helped to populate. We are therefore grateful to Shadi Abou-Zahra, Mario Batusic, Simon Harper, Shawn Lawton Henry, Rui Lopes, Máté Pataki, Peter Thiessen and Yeliz Yesilada.
15:31:30 [shadi]
SAZ: this is sufficient for now
15:31:53 [shadi]
...can also think about a contributors section
15:31:57 [giorgio]
ok. bye.
15:32:02 [sharper]
sharper has left #rd
15:32:05 [Zakim]
15:32:06 [Zakim]
15:32:06 [Zakim]
15:32:10 [Zakim]
15:32:11 [Zakim]
15:32:11 [Zakim]
WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has ended
15:32:11 [Zakim]
Attendees were shadi, sharper, giorgio, markel, Yehya, Peter
15:32:13 [markel]
markel has left #rd
15:34:27 [shadi]
trackbot, end meeting
15:34:27 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:34:27 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:34:35 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:34:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
15:34:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:34:36 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items