14:27:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rd
14:27:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rd-irc
14:27:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:27:04 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7394
14:27:04 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:27:05 <trackbot> Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:27:05 <trackbot> Date: 29 February 2012
14:27:10 <sharper> Chair: Harper_Simon
14:27:10 <sharper> Agenda+ Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)
14:27:11 <sharper> Agenda+ Pre-Call Release Discussion - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile_Pre_CFP
14:27:11 <sharper> Agenda+ W3C Note Editing
14:27:11 <sharper> Agenda+ Any Other Business 
14:27:36 <sharper> zakim, delete item 1
14:27:36 <Zakim> agendum 1, Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments), dropped
14:28:07 <sharper> zakim, delete item 2
14:28:07 <Zakim> agendum 2, Mobile Topic Pre-Call, dropped
14:28:11 <sharper> zakim, delete item 3
14:28:11 <Zakim> agendum 3, Mobile Topic Selection of Planning Committee, dropped
14:28:13 <Zakim> WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has now started
14:28:17 <sharper> zakim, delete item 4
14:28:17 <Zakim> agendum 4, Mobile Topic Selection of Scientific Committee, dropped
14:28:21 <Zakim> +??P0
14:28:21 <sharper> zakim, delete item 5
14:28:22 <Zakim> agendum 5, Continuation of W3C Note Group Edit, dropped
14:28:26 <sharper> zakim, delete item 6
14:28:26 <Zakim> agendum 6, Any Other Business, dropped
14:28:31 <shadi> zakim, ??p0 is me
14:28:31 <Zakim> +shadi; got it
14:28:33 <sharper> zakim, save agenda
14:28:39 <Zakim> ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rd-agenda.rdf
14:28:40 <sharper> zakim, agenda?
14:28:41 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:28:41 <Zakim> 7. Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments) [from sharper]
14:28:41 <Zakim> 8. Pre-Call Release Discussion - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile_Pre_CFP [from sharper]
14:28:41 <Zakim> 9. W3C Note Editing [from sharper]
14:28:41 <Zakim> 10. Any Other Business [from sharper]
14:28:51 <sharper> zakim, take up item 7
14:28:51 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)" taken up [from sharper]
14:29:24 <sharper> regrets: Kouroupetroglou_Christos, McCathieNevile_Charles, Yesilada_Yeliz, O'Connor_Joshue
14:29:45 <sharper> rrsagent, make logs public
14:29:50 <sharper> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:29:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rd-minutes.html sharper
14:31:31 <sharper> regrets+ Thiessen_Peter
14:31:53 <Zakim> +Klaus/Johannes/Thomas
14:32:02 <giorgio> giorgio has joined #rd
14:33:03 <sharper> present: Harper_Simon, Vigo_Markel, Brajnik_Giorgio, Abou-Zahra_Shadi
14:33:03 <Zakim> +??P2
14:33:18 <sharper> zakim, ??P2 is sharper
14:33:18 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
14:33:37 <Zakim> +??P3
14:33:51 <markel> markel has joined #rd
14:34:05 <sharper> zakim, ??P3 is giorgio
14:34:05 <Zakim> +giorgio; got it
14:34:34 <Zakim> +??P4
14:34:51 <sharper> zakim, ??P4 is markel
14:34:51 <Zakim> +markel; got it
14:35:05 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:35:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see shadi, Klaus/Johannes/Thomas, sharper, giorgio, markel
14:35:05 <sharper> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:35:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rd-minutes.html sharper
14:36:06 <Yehya> Yehya has joined #rd
14:36:29 <shadi> zakim, klaus/johannes/thomas is really Yehya
14:36:29 <Zakim> +Yehya; got it
14:36:33 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:36:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see shadi, Yehya, sharper, giorgio, markel
14:37:15 <Peter> Peter has joined #rd
14:37:44 <shadi> scribe: shadi
14:37:53 <shadi> agenda?
14:38:05 <Zakim> +??P5
14:38:13 <shadi> zakim, close agendum 7
14:38:13 <Zakim> agendum 7, Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments), closed
14:38:15 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:38:15 <Zakim> 8. Pre-Call Release Discussion - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile_Pre_CFP [from sharper]
14:38:19 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 8
14:38:19 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Pre-Call Release Discussion - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile_Pre_CFP" taken up [from sharper]
14:38:35 <Peter> Zakim, ??P5 is me
14:38:35 <Zakim> +Peter; got it
14:38:44 <Peter> Zakim, mute me
14:38:44 <Zakim> Peter should now be muted
14:38:48 <Peter> (sorry late)
14:38:55 <sharper> present+ Thiessen_Peter
14:38:59 <sharper> regrets- Thiessen_Peter
14:39:07 <Peter> (sorry will have to leave at 4:00 pulled into a meeting)
14:39:18 <shadi> SH: anything from other WAI groups?
14:39:27 <shadi> SAZ: no responses for a week now
14:40:02 <shadi> ...should reping them but proceed, assuming there are no objections
14:40:16 <shadi> SH: can drop copyright issue for now, if people agree
14:40:24 <shadi> ...just on the pre-call
14:40:27 <Peter> Yup, sounds good Simon (to me)
14:40:30 <shadi> ...then discuss later
14:40:30 <markel> fine to me
14:40:34 <giorgio> good fo me
14:40:34 <shadi> ...sound ok?
14:41:06 <shadi> RESOLUTION: drop copyright policy clause from the pre-call and rediscuss before the main announcement
14:41:17 <shadi> zakim, clsoe agendum 8
14:41:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'clsoe agendum 8', shadi
14:41:21 <shadi> zakim, close agendum 8
14:41:21 <Zakim> agendum 8, Pre-Call Release Discussion - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile_Pre_CFP, closed
14:41:23 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:41:23 <Zakim> 9. W3C Note Editing [from sharper]
14:41:28 <Peter> +1 (changes :)
14:41:29 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 9
14:41:29 <Zakim> agendum 9. "W3C Note Editing" taken up [from sharper]
14:41:42 <shadi> SH: people agree with Yeliz's comments?
14:41:50 <shadi> ...more discussion needed?
14:42:01 <shadi> GB: have another version with the changes
14:42:05 <shadi> ...hope to close today
14:42:14 <shadi> ...then will circulate updated version
14:43:07 <shadi> q+ to request a pedantic change (different point)
14:43:24 <shadi> SH: main issue seems to be about section 3.7
14:43:47 <shadi> MV: most of section 3 describes the papers while 3.7 describes the discussion
14:44:12 <shadi> SH: could change the title to something like "concluding remarks" to clarify the content
14:44:47 <shadi> [[3.7 Questions]]
14:45:45 <sharper> +1
14:45:54 <shadi> ack me
14:45:54 <Zakim> shadi, you wanted to request a pedantic change (different point)
14:46:39 <markel> q+
14:47:00 <sharper> ack m
14:47:06 <shadi> SAZ: propose to continue using the term "website accessibility metrics" rather than "web accessibility metrics"
14:47:36 <shadi> ...to reflect that we only mean metrics for websites rather than web accessibility
14:47:50 <shadi> ...which would need other metrics in addition to websites
14:48:05 <giorgio> q+
14:48:12 <sharper> ack g
14:49:00 <shadi> MV: think capital "Web" (rather "web") would denote all aspects of the web
14:49:11 <shadi> ...most papers talked about indiivdual pages
14:49:24 <shadi> GB: what is the risk of saying "web accessibility metrics"?
14:50:55 <giorgio> q+
14:51:23 <sharper> ack g
14:51:28 <shadi> SAZ: frequent myth that web content accessibility is all of accessibility
14:51:57 <shadi> ...need to reiterate where we can that we understand this aspect
14:52:25 <shadi> GB: not sure we want to confine ourselves to web content only
14:52:40 <markel> to me "website" has a different connotation
14:52:44 <shadi> ...also not sure that we are only discussing web content
14:53:06 <markel> if we say "website accessibility metrics" its metrics for the WHOLE  website
14:53:16 <markel> and single web pages are left out
14:55:17 <giorgio> q+
14:55:43 <sharper> ack g
14:55:46 <markel> +q
14:55:48 <shadi> SAZ: how about a brief section to describe this scope?
14:55:54 <shadi> GB: is it necessary?
14:56:19 <shadi> SAZ: I think so, often misunderstanding that "web accessibility" is "web content" only
14:56:27 <shadi> GB: what do others think?
14:56:46 <shadi> SH: ok with me
14:56:47 <Peter_Thiessen> +1 (behavior for example is often not included in people
14:56:58 <Peter_Thiessen> 's assumptions about what web accessibility is)
14:57:15 <shadi> MV: ok with me but not sure addresses the issue that shadi is talking about
14:57:17 <Peter_Thiessen> (behavior = browser events and user events :)
14:57:28 <markel> -q
14:57:40 <shadi> q?
14:58:04 <shadi> SH: agree with trying a sentence or so to clarify that
14:58:22 <Peter_Thiessen> +1
14:58:27 <shadi> [[Secondly, we wanted to know whether accessibility metrics ...]]
14:58:42 <shadi> [[4. A Research Roadmap for Web Accessibility Metrics]]
14:58:47 <Peter_Thiessen> (Sadly have to run to a meeting :(  best of luck finishing up and have a great week - cheers)
14:59:07 <Zakim> -Peter
14:59:35 <shadi> SAZ: sentence could fit here but editors discretion
14:59:47 <shadi> [[4.1 Ensuring Metric Quality]]
15:00:03 <shadi> +1
15:00:26 <sharper> +1
15:00:34 <shadi> [[4.1.2 Reliability]]
15:00:43 <sharper> +1
15:00:56 <shadi> [[4.1.3 Sensitivity]]
15:01:42 <shadi> SH: less "meat" on section 4.1.3 and 4.1.4
15:02:00 <shadi> ...is it because less input from the webinar or other reasons?
15:02:16 <shadi> GB: think validity and reliability more important
15:02:23 <shadi> ...also more references to discuss
15:02:26 <shadi> q+
15:02:50 <shadi> SH: could clarify that there is less work there
15:03:03 <shadi> ...but not imply that they are less important
15:03:06 <sharper> ack s
15:03:47 <markel> q+
15:04:02 <giorgio> GOOD POINT sHADI.
15:04:36 <sharper> ack m
15:05:02 <shadi> SAZ: (1) agree that lack of discussion is an important point to message in the document
15:05:35 <shadi> ...(2) consider putting the two last items into one section like "other considerations"
15:05:50 <shadi> ...(3) seems to be missing "complexity" aspect too
15:06:11 <shadi> ...(4) in 4.1.3 we are mixing "website testing" and "web accessibility"
15:06:27 <shadi> MV: agree
15:06:33 <giorgio> ok
15:06:39 <shadi> ...we specifically looked at reliability and validity more
15:06:47 <shadi> SH: need to be upfront about it
15:06:52 <shadi> ...and highlight these aspects
15:07:04 <shadi> [[4.2 A Corpus for Metrics Benchmarking]]
15:07:17 <shadi> q+
15:07:25 <markel> q+
15:07:33 <shadi> ack me
15:07:33 <sharper> ack s
15:08:00 <sharper> ack m
15:08:03 <shadi> SAZ: agree with the paragraph
15:08:17 <shadi> ...sent comments to the editors with additional references for considerations
15:08:30 <shadi> MV: already in new version, useful references
15:08:44 <markel> q+
15:08:44 <shadi> [[4.3 Credibility issues]]
15:08:46 <shadi> q+
15:08:50 <shadi> ack m
15:08:51 <sharper> ack m
15:09:02 <shadi> MV: raised by Annika on the panel
15:09:10 <shadi> ...also Shadi provided some comments
15:09:22 <shadi> ...think it is important point with several issues
15:09:27 <shadi> ...maybe need to expand
15:09:32 <shadi> ...need more input
15:09:51 <sharper> ack s
15:09:53 <shadi> SH: related to how we frame it
15:09:58 <shadi> ...could go into 4.2
15:11:10 <shadi> SAZ: agree with putting in 4.2
15:11:12 <markel> q+
15:11:17 <giorgio> Q+
15:11:22 <shadi> ...also agree that it is very important very delicate
15:11:47 <shadi> ...especially policy makers love numbers even if no one knows what they mean
15:11:51 <shadi> q?
15:12:17 <shadi> ack m
15:12:46 <shadi> MV: understand credibility as a side topic of validity and reliability
15:12:47 <sharper> ack g
15:12:57 <shadi> ...so agree with considering putting it in section 4.2
15:13:04 <markel> i meant side-effect
15:13:24 <shadi> GB: need to think more about the relationship to other items in 4.2
15:13:37 <shadi> ...occurs to me we did not explain Annika's point well
15:13:51 <shadi> ...need to clarify point more clearly
15:14:10 <shadi> MV: relates to reliability, no?
15:14:24 <shadi> GB: yes, low validity in tools related to low credibility
15:14:39 <shadi> [[4.4.1 User-tailored metrics]]
15:14:40 <shadi> +1
15:14:53 <sharper> +1
15:15:36 <markel> that's doable
15:15:51 <shadi> [[4.4.2 Dealing with dynamic content]]
15:16:14 <shadi> q+
15:16:42 <shadi> GB: maybe could talk about WAI-ARIA and ask for more explorations in this aspect
15:16:53 <markel> good idea Giorgio +1
15:17:05 <shadi> ack me
15:17:06 <sharper> ack s
15:18:10 <shadi> SAZ: seems to talk about two aspects of "dynamic"
15:18:24 <shadi> ...interactivity of scripting/interaction/etc
15:18:26 <markel> yes
15:18:27 <giorgio> YES
15:18:37 <shadi> ...and changes over time (such as wiki etc)
15:18:48 <shadi> [[Conclusions]]
15:18:50 <shadi> q+
15:19:08 <sharper> ack s
15:20:03 <shadi> SAZ: think it doesn't do the document justice
15:20:10 <shadi> ...so much good content in the document
15:20:23 <shadi> ...may need to reflect the discussion more in the conclusion
15:20:29 <shadi> MV: agree with Shadi
15:21:05 <shadi> Topic: Resolving open issues on the draft
15:21:19 <giorgio> ME TOO
15:21:27 <shadi> SH: some open issues on section 3.7 and other sections
15:21:32 <shadi> ...can do it next week?
15:21:35 <shadi> MV: yes
15:21:39 <markel> q+
15:21:56 <shadi> SH: will put on the agenda for next week
15:22:04 <sharper> ack m
15:22:04 <shadi> ...only to discuss these parts
15:22:17 <shadi> ...then put into a new draft for group review
15:22:31 <shadi> MV: suggest to include the other changes discussed so far
15:23:01 <shadi> SH: since substantial changes, please highlight them
15:23:03 <shadi> q+
15:23:24 <sharper> ack s
15:24:18 <giorgio> q+
15:24:38 <markel> q+
15:24:49 <sharper> acj g
15:24:51 <sharper> ack g
15:24:56 <shadi> SAZ: usually have an appendix called "document changes" or such
15:25:15 <markel> I agree with GB
15:25:18 <markel> q-
15:25:32 <shadi> ...please send me HTML and I can cross-link the two versions
15:26:34 <shadi> GB: how about work with open office comments?
15:26:49 <shadi> ...for this round before publishing first editor draft
15:27:04 <shadi> SAZ: fine, as long as no accessibility constraints
15:28:12 <giorgio> you are welcome Simon
15:28:49 <shadi> MV: question from shadi about credits
15:29:28 <giorgio> we added the following stuff:
15:29:31 <giorgio> Some excerpts of this document are extracted from an initial brainstorming document at http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Benchmarking_Web_Accessibility_Metrics where a number of members of the RDWG helped to populate. We are therefore grateful to Shadi Abou-Zahra,  Mario Batusic, Simon Harper, Shawn Lawton Henry, Rui Lopes, Máté Pataki, Peter Thiessen and Yeliz Yesilada.
15:31:30 <shadi> SAZ: this is sufficient for now
15:31:53 <shadi> ...can also think about a contributors section
15:31:57 <giorgio> ok. bye.
15:32:02 <sharper> sharper has left #rd
15:32:05 <Zakim> -Yehya
15:32:06 <Zakim> -shadi
15:32:06 <Zakim> -markel
15:32:10 <Zakim> -sharper
15:32:11 <Zakim> -giorgio
15:32:11 <Zakim> WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has ended
15:32:11 <Zakim> Attendees were shadi, sharper, giorgio, markel, Yehya, Peter
15:32:13 <markel> markel has left #rd
15:34:27 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
15:34:27 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:34:27 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:34:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:34:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rd-minutes.html trackbot
15:34:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:34:36 <RRSAgent> I see no action items