IRC log of css on 2012-02-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:34:27 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
16:34:27 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-css-irc
16:34:32 [glazou]: Zakim, this will be Style
16:34:32 [Zakim]: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, glazou
16:34:39 [glazou]: rrsagent, make logs public
16:35:50 [glenn]: glenn has joined #css
16:42:20 [glazou]: glazou has left #css
16:42:29 [glazou_]: glazou_ has joined #css
16:49:04 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
16:50:14 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: The issues I didn't log were raised after the end of the LC period, iirc.
16:52:35 [tantek]: tantek has joined #css
16:52:55 [plinss]: zakim, this will be style
16:52:55 [Zakim]: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, plinss
16:53:03 [tantek]: greetings
16:53:05 [tantek]: only on IRC this morning
16:53:07 [tantek]: Zakim, who is here
16:53:07 [Zakim]: tantek, you need to end that query with '?'
16:53:09 [TabAtkins_]: yo, tantek
16:53:14 [plinss]: hola
16:53:14 [tantek]: Zakim, who is here?
16:53:14 [Zakim]: sorry, tantek, I don't know what conference this is
16:53:15 [Zakim]: On IRC I see tantek, dbaron, glazou, glenn, RRSAgent, Zakim, dstorey, kojiishi, miketaylr, ksweeney, Ms2ger, nimbu, rworth, myakura, SimonSapin, AryehGregor, arronei, kennyluck,
16:53:15 [Zakim]: ... TabAtkins_, danielfilho, ed, fantasai, florianr, trackbot, Echoes, hober, vhardy, sylvaing_away, alexmog, plinss, paul___irish, shans, gsnedders, CSSWG_LogBot, stearns, krijnh,
16:53:16 [Zakim]: ... shepazu, Bert, macpherson, Hixie
16:53:26 [TabAtkins_]: Sigh. If Zakim understands the question, why does me make you rephrase it?
16:53:37 [tantek]: TabAtkins_ lazy bot programmer is lazy.
16:53:40 [rworth]: rworth has left #css
16:53:47 [TabAtkins_]: But it's actually *more* work to do that!
16:53:53 [jdaggett]: jdaggett has joined #css
16:53:58 [tantek]: and failed to obey 2nd law
16:55:11 [plinss]: zakim, this will be Style_CSS
16:55:11 [Zakim]: ok, plinss, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
16:55:11 [smfr]: smfr has joined #css
16:55:28 [Zakim]: +??P42
16:55:29 [vhardy_]: vhardy_ has joined #css
16:55:37 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P42 is me
16:55:37 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
16:55:44 [plinss]: zakim, who is here?
16:55:44 [Zakim]: On the phone I see nimbu, ??P40, glazou
16:55:45 [Zakim]: On IRC I see vhardy_, smfr, jdaggett, tantek, dbaron, glazou, glenn, RRSAgent, Zakim, dstorey, kojiishi, miketaylr, ksweeney, Ms2ger, nimbu, myakura, SimonSapin, AryehGregor,
16:55:45 [Zakim]: ... arronei, kennyluck, TabAtkins_, danielfilho, ed, fantasai, florianr, trackbot, Echoes, hober, vhardy, sylvaing_away, alexmog, plinss, paul___irish, shans, gsnedders,
16:55:45 [Zakim]: ... CSSWG_LogBot, stearns, krijnh, shepazu, Bert, macpherson, Hixie
16:55:49 [Zakim]: -??P40
16:55:51 [Zakim]: +plinss
16:56:15 [Zakim]: +??P44
16:56:16 [Zakim]: +??P43
16:56:18 [Zakim]: +??P40
16:56:35 [jdaggett]: zakim, ??p40 is me
16:56:35 [Zakim]: +jdaggett; got it
16:56:50 [Zakim]: +??P45
16:56:53 [bradk]: bradk has joined #css
16:57:12 [Zakim]: -??P43
16:57:15 [Zakim]: -??P44
16:57:47 [Zakim]: +??P46
16:57:53 [jdaggett]: ack
16:57:56 [glenn]: zakim, ??P46 is me
16:57:56 [Zakim]: +glenn; got it
16:57:59 [TabAtkins_]: lolwut?
16:58:02 [jdaggett]: zakim, ack
16:58:02 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'ack', jdaggett
16:58:03 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:58:09 [jdaggett]: q-
16:58:11 [glazou]: Zakim, you give us so much fun
16:58:11 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'you give us so much fun', glazou
16:58:19 [florianr]: Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
16:58:19 [Zakim]: +florianr; got it
16:58:38 [oyvind]: oyvind has joined #css
16:58:38 [Zakim]: +??P49
16:58:38 [antonp]: antonp has joined #css
16:58:54 [Zakim]: +smfr
16:59:05 [Zakim]: +sylvaing
16:59:23 [vhardy_]: zakim, who is here?
16:59:23 [Zakim]: On the phone I see nimbu, glazou, plinss, jdaggett, ??P45, glenn, [IPcaller], ??P49, smfr, sylvaing
16:59:25 [Zakim]: [IPcaller] has florianr
16:59:25 [Zakim]: On IRC I see antonp, oyvind, bradk, vhardy_, smfr, jdaggett, tantek, dbaron, glazou, glenn, RRSAgent, Zakim, dstorey, kojiishi, miketaylr, ksweeney, Ms2ger, nimbu, myakura,
16:59:27 [Zakim]: ... SimonSapin, AryehGregor, arronei, kennyluck, TabAtkins_, danielfilho, ed, fantasai, florianr, trackbot, Echoes, hober, vhardy, sylvaing, alexmog, plinss, paul___irish, shans,
16:59:32 [Zakim]: ... gsnedders, CSSWG_LogBot, stearns, krijnh, shepazu, Bert, macpherson, Hixie
16:59:34 [Zakim]: + +1.650.253.aaaa
16:59:38 [vhardy_]: Zakim, ??P49 is me
16:59:42 [Zakim]: +stearns
16:59:46 [TabAtkins_]: zakim, aaaa is [Google]
16:59:46 [Zakim]: +vhardy_; got it
16:59:52 [TabAtkins_]: zakim, [Google] has me
17:00:02 [Zakim]: +[Google]; got it
17:00:08 [kimberly]: kimberly has joined #css
17:00:08 [Zakim]: +Oliver_Goldman
17:00:09 [ChrisL]: ChrisL has joined #css
17:00:11 [krit]: krit has joined #css
17:00:12 [Zakim]: +TabAtkins_; got it
17:00:16 [Zakim]: +hober
17:00:29 [krit]: Zakim, who's here?
17:00:47 [Zakim]: On the phone I see nimbu, glazou, plinss, jdaggett, ??P45, glenn, [IPcaller], vhardy_, smfr, sylvaing, [Google], stearns, Oliver_Goldman, hober
17:00:53 [Zakim]: [IPcaller] has florianr
17:00:56 [Zakim]: [Google] has TabAtkins_
17:01:11 [krit]: Zakim, vhardy_ is me
17:01:22 [Zakim]: On IRC I see krit, ChrisL, kimberly, antonp, oyvind, bradk, vhardy_, smfr, jdaggett, tantek, dbaron, glazou, glenn, RRSAgent, Zakim, dstorey, kojiishi, miketaylr, ksweeney, Ms2ger,
17:01:27 [Zakim]: ... nimbu, myakura, SimonSapin, AryehGregor, arronei, kennyluck, TabAtkins_, danielfilho, ed, fantasai, florianr, trackbot, Echoes, hober, vhardy, sylvaing, alexmog, plinss,
17:01:28 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: That doesn't mean you don't file them.
17:01:30 [Zakim]: ... paul___irish, shans, gsnedders, CSSWG_LogBot, stearns, krijnh, shepazu, Bert, macpherson, Hixie
17:01:32 [danielweck]: danielweck has joined #css
17:01:42 [Zakim]: +??P62
17:01:44 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: You addressed them, didn't you? If you're going to ignore them because they're after the deadline, fine.
17:01:46 [Zakim]: +krit; got it
17:01:54 [Zakim]: +Bert
17:01:55 [ksweeney]: ksweeney has left #css
17:01:58 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: But if not, they need to be filed and processed.
17:01:58 [danielweck]: Zakim, ??62 is me
17:01:59 [smfr]: a 386
17:02:01 [Zakim]: +antonp
17:02:13 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: The only time we've ever rejected a comment due to being after the deadline is CSS2.1, fwiw.
17:02:14 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: My understanding was that the DoC was for LC issues.
17:02:14 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:02:16 [arronei]: zakim, microsoft has me
17:02:21 [Zakim]: sorry, danielweck, I do not recognize a party named '??62'
17:02:28 [Zakim]: +arronei; got it
17:02:31 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: And that was because if we didn't, we'd never finish.
17:02:34 [TabAtkins_]: Outside of the LC comment period, they're just regular comments, and are dealt with in the normal way.
17:02:48 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: You're addressing them between LC and CR, they get filed.
17:03:08 [plinss]: zakim, ??p62 is danielweck
17:03:08 [Zakim]: +danielweck; got it
17:03:22 [Cathy]: Cathy has joined #css
17:03:24 [SimonSapin1]: SimonSapin1 has joined #css
17:03:25 [TabAtkins_]: I can do that, sure. But don't complain about me not filing them when the instructions about what to file were apparently unclear. ^_^
17:03:37 [Zakim]: +kimberly
17:04:31 [glenn]: scribe: glenn
17:04:34 [glazou]: ScribeNick: glenn
17:04:43 [glenn]: chair: glazou
17:04:58 [Zakim]: +SteveZ
17:05:02 [glenn]: ???: like to talk about MQ
17:05:09 [nimbu]: ??? is florianr
17:05:18 [Zakim]: +ChrisL
17:05:18 [Zakim]: + +8521616aabb
17:05:20 [glenn]: s/???/florianr/
17:05:24 [Zakim]: + +1.408.421.aacc
17:05:26 [Zakim]: + +1.415.766.aadd
17:05:39 [glenn]: alex: can we publish ??
17:05:44 [dbaron]: Zakim, aadd is dbaron
17:05:44 [Zakim]: +dbaron; got it
17:05:46 [Zakim]: + +47.23.69.aaee
17:05:47 [stearns]: s/??/flexbox/
17:05:47 [TabAtkins_]: s/??/WD of Flexbox/
17:05:56 [alexmog_]: alexmog_ has joined #css
17:06:00 [Zakim]: +??P78
17:06:00 [glenn]: ???: gradients on agenda?
17:06:03 [tantek]: TabAtkins, between end of LC period and when you publish the CR it's a bit of a gray area as to what's "required". I think it's up to editor judgment, in which case consider if addressing the comment will improve the spec, and in particular avoid a CR-LC-CR cycle.
17:06:08 [nimbu]: s/???/sylvaing
17:06:16 [glenn]: glazou: only normative reference on agenda
17:06:18 [danielweck]: Zakim, ??P78 is me
17:06:19 [Zakim]: +danielweck; got it
17:06:20 [danielweck]: (again)
17:06:24 [glenn]: ... yes if possible
17:06:27 [dstorey]: one of those new people is me. Going to try to work out which
17:06:37 [TabAtkins_]: tantek: "Addressing" and "filing in the DoC" are very different things. I do the former. I didn't realize I had to do the latter.
17:06:46 [glenn]: alex: discussed LC on flexbox
17:06:52 [glenn]: ???: would like a WD
17:07:00 [florianr]: s/???/florianr/
17:07:01 [Rossen]: Rossen has joined #css
17:07:03 [howcome]: howcome has joined #css
17:07:07 [Zakim]: +??P9
17:07:08 [fantasai]: zakim, aacc is me
17:07:08 [Zakim]: +fantasai; got it
17:07:09 [glenn]: alex: will publish by tuesday
17:07:11 [dstorey]: zakim, +1.408.421.aacc is me
17:07:11 [Zakim]: sorry, dstorey, I do not recognize a party named '+1.408.421.aacc'
17:07:12 [kojiishi]: zakim, ??p9 is me
17:07:12 [Zakim]: +kojiishi; got it
17:07:13 [fantasai]: zakim, mute me
17:07:13 [Zakim]: fantasai should now be muted
17:07:24 [glenn]: chrisl: WD or what?
17:07:28 [fantasai]: zakim, fantasai is dstorey
17:07:28 [Zakim]: +dstorey; got it
17:07:30 [TabAtkins_]: RESOLVED: Publich Flexbox as WD.
17:07:39 [glenn]: RESOLVE: publish flexbox as WD
17:07:50 [ChrisL]: action: ChrisL to publish flexbox wd
17:07:50 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-453 - Publish flexbox wd [on Chris Lilley - due 2012-03-07].
17:07:51 [tantek]: TabAtkins, agreed. If it's a cross-WG comment then I tend to be more liberal toward including in the DoC as it tends to improve inter-WG relations and reduce static/friction in future interactions.
17:07:55 [smfr]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1083.html
17:08:02 [glenn]: glazou: post msg from david with list of issues
17:08:22 [Rossen]: zakim, [Microsoft] has me
17:08:22 [Zakim]: +Rossen; got it
17:08:26 [tantek]: TabAtkins, do you have a URL/webpage example of the new flexbox syntax/functionality/algorithm that shows it "working" (even prefixed) in 2+ implementations? (just curious what state of spec vs implementation is.
17:08:27 [alexmog_]: zakim, [microsoft] has me
17:08:27 [Zakim]: +alexmog_; got it
17:08:28 [glenn]: ???: order as in email
17:08:30 [SteveZ]: SteveZ has joined #css
17:08:42 [glenn]: ... animation of images and gradients
17:08:47 [glazou]: s/???/dbaron
17:08:53 [glenn]: ... rules in spec about animation of gradients
17:09:07 [glenn]: ... work in css4 images about that, should defer to that and remove from spec
17:09:11 [tantek]: thanks smfr for the link
17:09:20 [glenn]: ???: what is meant by defer?
17:09:24 [glazou]: s/???/florianr
17:09:25 [ChrisL]: I agree with all the ones in the postpone category, having read through them
17:09:48 [Zakim]: + +1.650.766.aaff
17:09:55 [glenn]: dbaron: impls free to do what the want
17:10:08 [sylvaing]: ChrisL, +1
17:10:08 [bradk]: zakim, aaff is me
17:10:08 [Zakim]: +bradk; got it
17:10:34 [smfr]: q+
17:10:34 [glenn]: listening
17:10:38 [glenn]: go ahead
17:10:43 [dbaron]: Tab: people will depend on whatever the implementations do, no matter what the spec says
17:11:02 [glazou]: Zakim, ack smfr
17:11:02 [Zakim]: I see no one on the speaker queue
17:11:05 [dbaron]: s/dbaron:/florianr:/
17:11:07 [tantek]: dbaron's clustering of issues postpone/easy/medium/hard is a good approach for helping advance these specs quickly.
17:11:08 [glenn]: ???: webkit has cross fade
17:11:10 [TabAtkins_]: s/???/smfr/
17:11:33 [glenn]: ... will do transitions using cross fade, agrees should be undefined how accomplished
17:12:03 [glenn]: dbaron: thinks that wk is impl newer spec
17:12:17 [leaverou]: leaverou has joined #css
17:12:26 [glenn]: ... should not have normative statement if will soon override
17:12:58 [glenn]: ... what is wrong with saying undefined?
17:13:16 [glenn]: worried if you say can't animate, or if you say can animate but not what happens
17:13:20 [glenn]: s/.../chrisl/
17:13:47 [glenn]: fantasai: should say undefined
17:14:00 [glenn]: ... then mention how it will be defined in future spec
17:14:36 [glenn]: chrisl: if spec says need not, will have no test
17:14:48 [dbaron]: s/need not/you should not try to animate this/
17:15:06 [glenn]: dbaron: css1/2 have said ignore props not defined in spec
17:15:13 [glenn]: ... yet css3 is defining new props
17:15:35 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:15:54 [glenn]: glazou: has to drop/rejoin due to sip problem, peter pls chair in mean time
17:15:54 [Zakim]: +??P42
17:15:56 [dbaron]: dbaron: I think that's fine
17:16:05 [glazou]: Zakim, ??p42 is me
17:16:05 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
17:16:11 [Zakim]: -danielweck
17:16:13 [fantasai]: s/should say undefined/should specify that whether and how it's animated is undefined/
17:16:26 [glazou]: (sorry, no change, very difficult to hear you all, sound is cut)
17:16:26 [JohnJansen]: JohnJansen has joined #CSS
17:16:31 [glazou]: Bert: probably
17:16:40 [smfr]: i'm fine with florianr's wording
17:16:42 [glenn]: ???: such and such is not expected to animate, but different ? will defines how this works
17:17:08 [glenn]: dbaron: are we talking just about images/gradients or everything not animatable?
17:17:27 [glenn]: ... thinks we're talking about everything, concerned about putting in big loop hole
17:17:39 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.a]
17:17:39 [florianr]: This level of css does not expect XXX to animate. Different modules or later levels may define how to animate them.
17:17:54 [glenn]: chrisl: (1) animatable and known, (2) not animatable and known, (3) others not sure
17:18:21 [glenn]: ???: is it clear on (2) vs (3)
17:18:45 [glenn]: ... rather be specific when possible
17:19:10 [glenn]: dbaron: ok if we have statement about limited set of props
17:19:29 [glenn]: ... should i take an action to write that statement?
17:20:10 [glenn]: dbaron: most of the rest aren't properties
17:20:22 [glenn]: glazou: would like a decision
17:20:33 [smfr]: i agree
17:20:34 [glenn]: chrisl: agrees with entire list of things to postpone
17:20:48 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft.a]
17:20:49 [glenn]: ... to which sylviang agreed
17:20:59 [smfr]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14609
17:21:08 [Zakim]: -danielweck.a
17:21:11 [glenn]: dbaron: transitions about value types you can't interpolate
17:21:42 [glenn]: ... things would animate that people aren't expecting to animate
17:21:56 [glenn]: ???: can define special timing model for discrete things
17:22:00 [dbaron]: s/???/Tab/
17:22:45 [glenn]: chrisl: in SVG discrete changes interpolate
17:23:05 [glenn]: dbaron: are people not worried about this?
17:23:14 [glenn]: ... will put constraints on what we can do
17:24:05 [glenn]: tab: if transitions immediately after non-zero, then should work
17:24:07 [smfr]: transition: all 2s 2s;
17:24:23 [glenn]: tab: find with leaving or fixing, simple to fix
17:24:44 [glenn]: ???: thinks not simple to fix
17:24:50 [glenn]: tab: shouldn't have transition all
17:24:54 [smfr]: s/???/smfr
17:25:19 [BobBie]: BobBie has joined #css
17:25:27 [glenn]: ???: suggests postponing
17:25:35 [smfr]: s/???/florianr
17:25:45 [glenn]: dbaron: should work within constraints just now, is ok with postponing
17:25:52 [smfr]: i'm ok with postponing
17:26:15 [Zakim]: -krit
17:26:17 [glenn]: RESOLVED: postponing ??? items
17:26:36 [smfr]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15844
17:26:36 [glenn]: <dbaron pls s/// ??? for me>
17:26:37 [krit]: zakim, who's here
17:26:37 [Zakim]: krit, you need to end that query with '?'
17:26:45 [krit]: zakim, who's here?
17:26:45 [Zakim]: On the phone I see nimbu, plinss, jdaggett, ??P45, glenn, [IPcaller], smfr, sylvaing, [Google], stearns, Oliver_Goldman, hober, Bert, antonp, [Microsoft], kimberly, SteveZ, ChrisL,
17:26:49 [Zakim]: ... +8521616aabb, dstorey (muted), dbaron, +47.23.69.aaee, kojiishi, bradk, glazou
17:26:49 [Zakim]: [IPcaller] has florianr
17:26:49 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has alexmog_
17:26:50 [Zakim]: [Google] has TabAtkins_
17:26:52 [Zakim]: On IRC I see BobBie, JohnJansen, leaverou, SteveZ, howcome, Rossen, alexmog_, SimonSapin1, Cathy, danielweck, krit, ChrisL, kimberly, antonp, oyvind, bradk, vhardy_, smfr,
17:26:55 [Zakim]: ... jdaggett, tantek, dbaron, glazou, glenn, RRSAgent, Zakim, dstorey, kojiishi, miketaylr, Ms2ger, nimbu, myakura, AryehGregor, arronei, kennyluck, TabAtkins_, danielfilho, ed,
17:26:58 [Zakim]: ... fantasai, florianr, trackbot, Echoes, hober, vhardy, sylvaing, alexmog, plinss, paul___irish, shans, gsnedders, CSSWG_LogBot, stearns, krijnh, shepazu, Bert, macpherson, Hixie
17:26:58 [dbaron]: s/???/the items listed as postpone in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1083.html/
17:27:04 [glenn]: tnx
17:27:14 [glenn]: tab: can't having impls doing different things...
17:27:56 [glenn]: ???: don't want webkit behavior
17:28:02 [dbaron]: smfr: WebKit treats 'auto' as '0'
17:28:06 [Zakim]: - +47.23.69.aaee
17:28:09 [florianr]: s/???/dbaron/
17:28:31 [glenn]: dbaron: how to match lists of different lengths
17:28:38 [glenn]: ... in transition * properties
17:28:47 [glenn]: ... background is the length that matters
17:28:53 [ChrisL]: agree with the truncated/repeated proposal
17:28:58 [glenn]: ... use beginning of list ignore the rest
17:29:00 [smfr]: agreed
17:29:10 [glenn]: dbaron: proposes ???
17:29:31 [dbaron]: RESOLVED: resolve bug 14604 as proposed
17:30:02 [glenn]: dbaron: next, reverse animation using opposite timing function, people ask for feature
17:30:20 [glenn]: ... postpone adding such feature, but add example showing how it can be used now
17:30:35 [glenn]: ... a little confusing, but not too hard
17:30:40 [glenn]: glazou: good compromise
17:30:42 [dbaron]: RESOLVED: resolve bug 14611 as proposed
17:31:00 [glenn]: dbaron: spec mentions grid and zoom props
17:31:06 [smfr]: agreed
17:31:13 [glenn]: ... grid isn't any spec, zoom is; propose removing refs
17:31:15 [ChrisL]: agreed
17:31:15 [glenn]: tab: agree
17:31:18 [Zakim]: +??P1
17:31:22 [dbaron]: RESOLVED: resolve bug 14618 and 14626 as proposed
17:31:44 [smfr]: agreed
17:31:46 [glenn]: dbaron: vertical align is animatable (according to spec), but what does animating keywords mean?
17:32:21 [Zakim]: -??P1
17:32:24 [glenn]: ???: should we say "no keywords" or just enumerate the subset of what can animate?
17:32:33 [TabAtkins_]: s/???/florianr/
17:32:39 [dbaron]: RESOLVED: resolve bug 14988 as proposed
17:32:50 [glenn]: dbaron: last of easy items
17:32:51 [smfr]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15838
17:32:51 [Bert]: (Animating from 'top' to 'bottom' makes sense, but doesn't seem needed.)
17:33:05 [glenn]: ... no transition when both transition delay and ??? are zero seconds
17:33:07 [ChrisL]: agree on the zero transition
17:33:09 [Zakim]: +??P1
17:33:11 [glenn]: ... nothing says it
17:33:26 [glenn]: tab: doesn't like because it is discontinuous behavior
17:33:46 [glenn]: dbaron: the default is delay/duraion not transition property
17:33:53 [glenn]: s/duraion/duration/
17:34:04 [glenn]: tab: ok, need to make not a transition
17:34:27 [glenn]: florianr: does the spec say this?
17:34:34 [dbaron]: smfr: implication of transition not occurring is that no events fire?
17:34:35 [fantasai]: tab: oh, we default to transition-property: all; and transition-duration / ?? to zero
17:34:35 [Bert]: ". By default the value is ‘0s’, meaning that the transition is immediate"
17:34:37 [dbaron]: smfr: does the spec say that?
17:34:41 [TabAtkins_]: Specifically, the current "no transitions" default is implemention with a property of "all" and a delay/duration of "0".
17:34:47 [glenn]: s/florianr/smfr/
17:34:47 [Bert]: " (i.e. there will be no animation)."
17:35:01 [glenn]: fantasai: why do we have default of zero?
17:35:11 [fantasai]: s/zero/all\/zero/
17:35:17 [glenn]: bert: specs no animation in that case
17:35:26 [glenn]: tab: events are important part
17:36:11 [glenn]: <speaker pls summarize long statement in irc>
17:36:32 [smfr]: i approve
17:36:39 [TabAtkins_]: smfr: [explained the original reasoning between the current defaults vs defaulting to a property of 'none' and some default duration]
17:36:50 [dbaron]: RESOLVED: resolve bug 15838 as proposed
17:36:51 [Bert]: smfr: [there are usability reasons for defaults of 'all' and '0s']
17:37:07 [glenn]: glazou: moving to Z-axis intersection issue for transforms
17:37:17 [glenn]: ... is dirk here?
17:37:19 [smfr]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1202.html
17:37:25 [dbaron]: Topic: Z-Axis intersection for transforms
17:37:54 [glenn]: ???: opera does not have impl of 3d transforms
17:38:10 [glenn]: ... in favor of saying do intersection in spec
17:38:13 [dbaron]: s/???/florianr/
17:38:15 [glenn]: ... not in favor of saying should
17:38:39 [glenn]: dbaron: talked to robert
17:38:53 [glenn]: tab: would like to do correctly, impl is tricky
17:39:01 [Zakim]: + +47.23.69.aagg
17:39:26 [dbaron]: s/robert/Robert O'Callahan, and he agreed the correct behavior (plane splitting) is obvious but we don't do it correctly now, but we should/
17:39:29 [smfr]: RESOLVED: transform spec should make intersection behavior a MUST
17:39:31 [jet]: jet has joined #CSS
17:39:32 [howcome]: zakim, aagg is howcome
17:39:32 [Zakim]: +howcome; got it
17:40:35 [glenn]: ???: possible problem with mirroring specs
17:40:45 [TabAtkins_]: s/???/jdaggett
17:40:54 [glenn]: ... multiview?
17:41:04 [fantasai]: scribenick: fantasai
17:41:07 [glenn]: ... proposal to mirror to csswg, thinks it is bad idea
17:41:16 [fantasai]: jdaggett: proposal was to host specs on csswg.org
17:41:21 [glenn]: <jdaggett pls speak up>
17:41:32 [fantasai]: jdaggett: means all ..., and all editor's drafts have to point [...]
17:41:42 [dbaron]: s/[...]/to csswg.org/
17:41:42 [fantasai]: jdaggett: I don't see that using Apache is necessary. We can use <meta> to do redirection.
17:42:02 [fantasai]: jdaggett: Not ideal, but better than having csswg.org be a point of failure
17:42:02 [glenn]: jdaggett: not necessary to use .htaccess facilities
17:42:12 [tantek]: I agree, I'd rather delay the source control transition if it means we can avoid one or more temporary places for specs.
17:42:23 [fantasai]: Scribenick: glenn
17:42:36 [glenn]: plinss: timing to be finalized today
17:42:43 [glenn]: ... infrastructure in place
17:42:53 [glenn]: ... wishes better docs, but working on them today
17:43:02 [glenn]: ... no addl burden on editors
17:43:28 [glenn]: jdaggett: questions using URLs to refer to csswg.org host
17:43:39 [tantek]: I have not had time to retry the hg instructions again to see where I get stuck next btw.
17:43:41 [glenn]: plinss: suggests reverse proxy on dev.w3.org
17:43:50 [glenn]: bert: pretty sure its possible
17:44:13 [dbaron]: (Why do a reverse proxy on a w3c server if we could just do a checkout on a w3c server?)
17:44:15 [glenn]: plinss: this is just a stop gap, i.e., using csswg.org
17:44:23 [tantek]: exactly, what dbaron said
17:44:32 [glenn]: jdaggett: doesn't see need for interim step
17:44:36 [tantek]: can we delay transition and avoid stopgaps?
17:44:41 [tantek]: what's the rush?
17:44:51 [glenn]: plinss: if we use reverse proxy, nobody will know
17:45:21 [tantek]: I agree with the concerns that jdaggett has raised.
17:45:22 [glenn]: ... will start with proxy on dev.w3.org to csswg.org
17:45:36 [glenn]: jdaggett: doesn't like having csswg.org as a point of failure
17:45:50 [glenn]: plinss: only for a few weeks/months
17:46:04 [glenn]: jdaggett: doesn't see this step as necessary
17:46:14 [dbaron]: If there's a chance we can make this happen in a matter of days, I think we should try to get that to happen.
17:46:45 [dbaron]: I think it's preferable to have the editors drafts have w3.org URLs
17:46:46 [glenn]: plinss: what's the big deal?
17:46:54 [glenn]: jdaggett: sounds like extra work for nothing
17:47:20 [glenn]: ... had breakage previously
17:47:38 [glenn]: <going in loops here... glazou?>
17:47:54 [fantasai]: plinss: They'll be served from dev.w3.org URLs
17:48:02 [glenn]: glazou: pls take to email or irc after call
17:48:15 [fantasai]: plinss: so why do you care
17:48:17 [Zakim]: -??P1
17:48:24 [glenn]: TOPIC: css3 images
17:48:37 [glenn]: fantasai: DoC but won't get through them today
17:48:51 [dbaron]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/issues-lc-2012 is the thing to discuss?
17:48:51 [glenn]: ... all should review DoC and discuss issues during next telecon
17:48:55 [dbaron]: er, to review?
17:49:01 [TabAtkins_]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/issues-lc-2012
17:49:02 [glenn]: ... suggests talking now about taking V&U to LC
17:49:17 [glenn]: glazou: reds need review
17:49:31 [glenn]: fantasai: all are pretty tricky
17:49:40 [glenn]: tab: need other people looking at them
17:49:51 [Zakim]: +??P0
17:50:14 [glenn]: glazou: action on all to review DoC and comment
17:50:21 [sylvaing]: title of css3-images DoC is 'CSS Backgrounds and Borders Level 3'
17:50:31 [glenn]: ... what else to say now about this doc?
17:50:40 [glenn]: tab: just discuss DoC
17:50:50 [glenn]: florianr: like to go back to MQ
17:50:59 [glenn]: ... current TS is not latest version
17:51:12 [glenn]: fantasai: already has action item to do this
17:51:22 [glenn]: florianr: will write results for opera
17:51:26 [fantasai]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012JanMar/0309.html
17:51:33 [glenn]: ... also some editorial changes, should republish
17:51:41 [glenn]: ... question about when
17:51:55 [florianr]: http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2012/02/28/precision-engine
17:52:03 [glenn]: fantasai: suggests passing (opera) build first
17:52:27 [glenn]: florianr: go to LC then hopefully CR
17:52:36 [glenn]: s/florianr/fantasai/
17:52:40 [fantasai]: s/CR/PR/
17:52:51 [fantasai]: fantasai: or are they only editorial?
17:52:58 [fantasai]: florianr: Borderline
17:53:09 [fantasai]: florianr: Not changing what they say, just what people understand them to say
17:53:42 [glenn]: florianr: a request on ML for example
17:53:53 [glenn]: fantasai: no opinion
17:54:19 [BobBie]: hi
17:54:27 [glazou]: glazou has joined #css
17:54:35 [glenn]: florianr: suggest not adding this specific example because it refers to feature not referenced
17:55:14 [glenn]: ... request for example using rem unit
17:55:41 [glenn]: sylvaing: think is not needed
17:55:53 [glazou]: s/sylvaing/glazou
17:55:56 [glenn]: dbaron: but may help clarify spec text, units never based on results of declarations
17:56:15 [glenn]: ... unambiguous that rem behaves same way
17:56:32 [dbaron]: Add to "Relative units in media queries are based on the initial value."
17:56:34 [glenn]: ... add to sentence "relative units ..."
17:56:37 [Zakim]: -Oliver_Goldman
17:56:52 [glenn]: florianr: sounds good, will edit and republish
17:57:08 [glenn]: <is there a resolution? pls someone type into irc>
17:57:29 [glazou]: RESOLUTION: Add to "Relative units in media queries are based on the initial value."
17:57:31 [glenn]: dbaron: previous version in draft is obsolete
17:57:32 [Zakim]: -dstorey
17:57:47 [glenn]: chrisl: if all editorial, don
17:57:52 [dbaron]: s/previous version in draft is obsolete/previous version link in draft points to previous previous version/
17:57:53 [glenn]: ... don't need another LC
17:58:00 [glenn]: ... or is proposal to go to PR?
17:58:05 [glenn]: dbaron: possible in one week
17:58:15 [glenn]: ... depends on impl reports
17:58:24 [glenn]: florianr: can have IRs tomorrow
17:58:28 [glenn]: fantasai: agreed
17:58:47 [glenn]: dbaron: mozilla passes all the tests in the repo
17:59:41 [krit]: krit has joined #css
17:59:42 [glenn]: florianr: should we list previous editors as current editors or previous?
17:59:52 [glenn]: ... currently listed as previous
17:59:56 [jdaggett]: previous editors seems fine
18:00:03 [glenn]: glazou: no opinion
18:00:09 [glenn]: tab: list as previous
18:00:24 [glenn]: stevez: long tradition
18:00:27 [dbaron]: though sometimes the "previous editors" is editors for a previous level of the spec, which is sort of different...
18:00:58 [danielweck]: Zakim, ??P0 is me
18:00:58 [Zakim]: +danielweck; got it
18:01:08 [Zakim]: -jdaggett
18:01:13 [Bert]: RESOLVED: move editors of MQ who are no longer active to "Former editor"
18:01:37 [dbaron]: fantasai: Everybody ok with removing the comma between attribute name and type in the attr() function?
18:01:39 [glenn]: fantasai: is everbody ok with removing comma between ? and ?
18:01:48 [glenn]: glazou: not fair to ask this now at end of call
18:01:58 [Bert]: (I don't like it without the comma, but can live with it.)
18:02:05 [dbaron]: peterl: We discussed it at f2f, and howcome was only dissenter.
18:02:14 [dbaron]: peterl: And howcome just said he's ok with it.
18:02:32 [glenn]: <is there a resolution?>
18:02:41 [Zakim]: -smfr
18:02:41 [glenn]: <fantasai, pls type resolution>
18:02:43 [kimberly]: kimberly has left #css
18:02:43 [dbaron]: RESOLVED: publish last call of css3-values
18:02:43 [Zakim]: -kimberly
18:02:48 [Zakim]: -howcome
18:02:49 [glenn]: glazou: adjourned
18:02:51 [Zakim]: -nimbu
18:02:52 [Zakim]: -sylvaing
18:02:54 [Zakim]: -ChrisL
18:02:54 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: drop comma between attribute name and type in attr()
18:02:56 [Zakim]: -glazou
18:02:57 [Zakim]: -[Google]
18:02:58 [Zakim]: -hober
18:02:58 [Zakim]: -dbaron
18:02:59 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
18:02:59 [Zakim]: -stearns
18:03:01 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
18:03:01 [glenn]: rrsagent, publish minutes
18:03:01 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-css-minutes.html glenn
18:03:03 [Zakim]: -bradk
18:03:05 [Zakim]: -antonp
18:03:07 [Zakim]: -Bert
18:03:08 [TabAtkins_]: RESOLVED: publish V&U as LCWD.
18:03:09 [Zakim]: -kojiishi
18:03:11 [Zakim]: -??P45
18:03:13 [Zakim]: -plinss
18:03:15 [Zakim]: - +8521616aabb
18:03:26 [glenn]: trackbot, end meeting
18:03:26 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
18:03:26 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been nimbu, glazou, plinss, jdaggett, glenn, florianr, smfr, sylvaing, +1.650.253.aaaa, stearns, Oliver_Goldman, TabAtkins_, hober, krit, Bert,
18:03:29 [Zakim]: ... antonp, arronei, danielweck, kimberly, SteveZ, ChrisL, +8521616aabb, +1.408.421.aacc, +1.415.766.aadd, dbaron, +47.23.69.aaee, kojiishi, dstorey, Rossen, alexmog_,
18:03:30 [Zakim]: ... +1.650.766.aaff, bradk, [Microsoft], +47.23.69.aagg, howcome
18:03:33 [fantasai]: Bert, is CSS Speech CR in the pipeline yet?
18:03:34 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:03:34 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-css-minutes.html trackbot
18:03:35 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
18:03:35 [RRSAgent]: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-css-actions.rdf :
18:03:35 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: ChrisL to publish flexbox wd [1]
18:03:35 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-css-irc#T17-07-50