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19:59:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-irc
19:59:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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19:59:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:59:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
19:59:39 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:59:39 <trackbot> Date: 23 February 2012
20:00:38 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM has now started
20:00:45 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:01:40 <Zakim> +Tav
20:02:59 <Zakim> +??P9
20:03:01 <heycam> Zakim, ??P9 is me
20:03:01 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:03:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:04:07 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
20:04:07 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:04:10 <shepazoo> shepazoo has joined #svg
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20:04:40 <Zakim> + +1.612.980.aaaa
20:04:47 <heycam> Chair: Cameron
20:04:53 <heycam> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0108.html
20:05:16 <Zakim> +cabanier
20:05:28 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
20:06:19 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:06:32 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aabb
20:06:56 <krit> krit has joined #svg
20:07:17 <krit> Zakim, who's here?
20:07:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, Tav, heycam, ed, +1.612.980.aaaa, cabanier, ChrisL, +1.415.832.aabb
20:07:35 <cyril|away> zakim, aaaa is me
20:07:35 <Zakim> +cyril|away; got it
20:07:36 <krit> Zakim, +1.415.832 is me
20:07:37 <Zakim> +krit; got it
20:07:47 <heycam> Zakim, pick a scribe
20:07:47 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cabanier
20:08:02 <heycam> Zakim, pick a scribe
20:08:02 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cabanier
20:08:07 <heycam> Zakim, pick a scribe
20:08:07 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Doug_Schepers
20:08:30 <cyril> scribe: cyril
20:08:35 <cyril> scribenick: cyril
20:08:55 <cyril> Topic: CSS 3 UI Review
20:09:04 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0114.html
20:09:11 <cyril> CL: Chris has written up some review
20:09:32 <cyril> ... I'll skip to the bits that might be difficult
20:09:56 <cyril> ... we don't currently allow replacement text i.e. to do numbering 
20:10:03 <cyril> ... because our text does not reflow
20:10:13 <cyril> but the icon property might be used 
20:10:21 <cyril> CM: that replaces with an image
20:10:24 <cyril> CL: yes
20:10:40 <cyril> CM: I could see supporting before and after for numbering in SVG
20:10:49 <cyril> ... where you might not need reflowing
20:11:00 <cyril> ... if have a text with a width
20:11:12 <cyril> ... but replacing a text with an image might be tricky
20:11:20 <cyril> ... because we don't allow image in text
20:11:32 <cyril> CL: it does not assume a coordinate system
20:11:47 <cyril> CM: you could set this icon property on a tspan in a middle of text
20:11:48 <cyril> CL: yes
20:12:13 <cyril> CM: my initial feeling is to make icon not apply to our text unless we go into having image in text
20:12:21 <cyril> CL: especially because it's at risj
20:12:30 <cyril> s/risj/risk/
20:12:45 <cyril> ... if we don't speak up and say we love it, it might disappear
20:13:14 <cyril> ... next is outline-property
20:13:30 <cyril> ... it is like a border but without width
20:13:47 <cyril> ... in this draft it adds more control on how it looks like
20:14:00 <cyril> ... and it says it doesn't have to be rectangular
20:14:13 <cyril> ... maybe rounded corner
20:14:36 <cyril> ... for SVG that means is a rectangle, not really useful, it is essentially like stroking the bounding box
20:14:40 <shepazu> q+
20:14:44 <cyril> ED: how does it work with CSS transforms
20:14:54 <cyril> CL: good question
20:15:19 <cyril> DS: I think that outline is really useful because people would want to use it as a highlight mechanism
20:15:32 <cyril> ... we should define our highlight in terms of outline
20:15:39 <cyril> CM: when we have focused element?
20:15:44 <cyril> DS: yes
20:15:53 <cyril> ... but I think you're probably right in your comment
20:16:12 <cyril> CL: next: resizing and overflow
20:16:35 <cyril> ... resize is done only if the object is too big and you've set overlfow correctly
20:17:02 <cyril> s/overlfow/overflow/
20:17:33 <cyril> ... it is more useful in the HTML/SVG integration than for SVG by itself
20:17:58 <cyril> ... it only applies to elements that are too big to fit
20:18:12 <cyril> ... you wouldn't be able to resize a path
20:18:58 <ChrisL> Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 33554432 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 77 bytes) in /afs/w3.org/pub/WWW/2002/09/wbs/user.phi on line 341 
20:19:41 <cyril> CL: next: overflow: ellipsis
20:20:01 <cyril> ... this is where you've got text that it is too big to fit and replace the end of the text with ...
20:20:47 <cyril> ... but the instruction is entirely defined in the box model and difficult for SVG 
20:20:56 <cyril> ed: we have a resolution to add this to SVG 2
20:21:02 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Add_text-overflow_to_SVG_2
20:21:19 <cyril> ... we've implemented that for SVG already
20:21:23 <ChrisL> "when inline content overflows its block container element "
20:21:55 <ed> text content block elements
20:22:05 <cyril> CL: we should say that we want wording when it applies to SVG
20:22:19 <cyril> ... like text outside of the viewport
20:22:20 <shepazu> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2440
20:22:31 <cyril> CL: this might be a bit funny
20:22:42 <ed> here's the proposal for how to make it work in svg: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Auckland_2011/Text-overflow
20:22:55 <cyril> ... same thing for the path, the characters outside don't get rendered
20:23:11 <cyril> CL: but you don't know your'e missing characters
20:23:36 <cyril> DS: can you provide example on how it works for path in SVG ?
20:23:41 <cyril> ED: yes
20:23:51 <ed> http://dahlström.net/svg/css/text-overflow-ellipsis.svg
20:24:55 <cyril> CM: so you use the width attribute
20:25:09 <cyril> ... but it's probably not the right one, the length would be better
20:25:19 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
20:25:19 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-irc#T20-25-19
20:25:30 <cyril> ... we might be defining our text layout treated as if we were using hte CSS box model
20:25:46 <cyril> ... but today we don't use it
20:26:05 <cyril> CL: cursor property
20:26:14 <cyril> ... they define a superset of what we have
20:26:37 <cyril> ... the change is for links, in our spec, we have a lnk to a cursor element (invented in SVG)
20:26:49 <cyril> ... because we did not want to change the syntax of CSS
20:27:01 <cyril> ... the way they define the x and y property is better
20:27:20 <cyril> ... i propose that we deprecate the cursor element because the x/y is better handled
20:27:34 <cyril> DS: would you still be able to do custom cursor elements
20:27:42 <cyril> CL: yes 
20:28:04 <cyril> ... that is why the x/y is for
20:29:58 <cyril> .. the cursor element is just another level of indirection just to indicate the hotspot in your cursor resource
20:30:13 <cyril> ... ASV 6 implemented that I think
20:30:37 <cyril> CM: we just need to handle the new x,y that's it
20:30:39 <cyril> CL: yes
20:31:02 <cyril> CL: two related things: tab order and direction navigation
20:31:33 <cyril> ... do we care about that, and say we want to have 8 way-navigation (SVG Tiny 1.2) or we are fine with 4 way
20:31:46 <cyril> DS: i think it makes sense to have 8-way
20:32:00 <cyril> ... there are some devices with 8-way controllers
20:32:13 <cyril> ... in DOM 3 the key model assumes an 8-way controller
20:32:47 <cyril> CL: I can point to DOM and SVG
20:33:04 <cyril> CM: erik do you implement the 8-way ?
20:33:19 <cyril> ED: I think we do,
20:33:39 <cyril> CL: good to know because the feature is at risk because of lack of implementations
20:34:10 <cyril> ... next: Input method editor
20:34:23 <ed> http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto2.10/svg/attributes/ lists all the nav attributes from Tiny 1.2 as supported
20:34:24 <cyril> ... it's more aimed at Japanese 
20:34:34 <cyril> ... you can disable to IME
20:34:40 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#key-values-list
20:34:41 <cyril> ... it's very weird
20:34:53 <cyril> DS: why CSS does anything to do with IME?
20:35:13 <cyril> CM: the point is that IE had this property to force the IME not to come up
20:35:35 <cyril> CL: last, references
20:35:46 <cyril> ... it references both SVG 1.0 and SVG 1.1
20:35:56 <cyril> ... as informative documents
20:36:13 <cyril> ... some other references are weird
20:36:21 <cyril> ... that concludes my review
20:36:47 <cyril> DS: is it worth mentionning htat hte pointer-events property has been dropped from CSS UI
20:36:54 <cyril> CL: yes, thank you
20:37:11 <cyril> DS: I had an action to do the CSS version of pointer events
20:37:34 <cyril> ... but Tantek said no I'll do it, but then dropped it
20:37:45 <cyril> ... because there is not a good testing model for the platform
20:37:53 <cyril> ... he moved that on for CSS UI 4
20:38:17 <cyril> ... but I think it oculd be a standalone spec including hit testing and pointer events
20:38:29 <cyril> ... it could be a separate module of CSS
20:38:52 <cyril> ... if it was already in scope for CSS UI but was dropped
20:39:28 <cyril> ... there's been a lot of demand for it
20:40:24 <cyril> DS2: I don't care if it is a module or CSS 4
20:40:37 <shepazu> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/pointer-events
20:40:46 <cyril> DS: it works in Chrome, Firefox and Safari 
20:41:03 <ChrisL> in html
20:41:03 <heycam> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cp%20onmouseover%3D%22this.style.backgroundColor%3D%27yellow%27%22%20onmouseout%3D%22this.style.backgroundColor%3D%27white%27%22%20style%3D%22pointer-events%3Anone%22%3Ehover%20over%20me%3C%2Fp%3E
20:42:51 <cyril> CL: I'll add that comment to the end of the review
20:44:14 <cyril> DS: I don't mind if it is moved to UI 4 if there is a plan to have CSS UI 4 move quickly
20:44:26 <cyril> CL: I don't think it'll go fast
20:44:38 <cyril> DS: then that suboptimal given that it is already implemented
20:45:23 <cyril> RC: is there any security issue with that?
20:45:46 <cyril> DS: it's implemented so I don't think there are unadressed security issues
20:46:24 <cyril> Topic: Background and border
20:46:35 <cyril> CM: who was assigned the action to review it?
20:46:42 <cyril> CL: Erik ?
20:46:49 <shepazu> agenda?
20:47:02 <cyril> CM: when is the CSS spec due ?
20:47:17 <cyril> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0108.html
20:47:33 <cyril> ED: the review were due yesterday
20:47:47 <cyril> CM: I remember some email about object-fit
20:48:17 <cyril> ED: there was an issue on how you could reference SVG files from the element() syntax
20:48:24 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1124.html
20:49:13 <cyril> Topic: transforms
20:49:27 <cyril> DS: Chris has raised the issue in CSS
20:49:38 <cyril> ... the CSS WG agreed to publish
20:49:58 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
20:50:07 <cyril> Topic: back to Background and border
20:50:10 <ed> response from tab: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1137.html
20:50:20 <cyril> CM: is there anything useful discussing about the spec or not
20:50:55 <cyril> ED: you can't reference a whole SVG file
20:51:25 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#element-reference
20:51:53 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#paint-sources
20:52:03 <cyril> CM: if you reference a gradient or pattenr, what does it mean in terms of coordinate space on the element you're using 
20:52:44 <cyril> ED: you'd have to wrap an SVG element in a pattern
20:53:13 <cyril> DiS: wouldn't it be better to say user unit?
20:53:30 <cyril> CL: I prefer user coordinates instead of user units
20:54:04 <ed> there was a response from boris Zbarsky too, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1131.html
20:54:06 <cyril> CM: if you're using an SVG as a background image, you can use a URL to point to the SVG 
20:54:26 <Zakim> -Tav
20:54:30 <cyril> ED: the use case I think is that some SVG might not be rendered first
20:54:54 <cyril> ... so SVG elements with display:none can't get reference
20:55:07 <Zakim> +Tav
20:55:21 <cyril> CM: what about things inside a <defs>
20:55:54 <cyril> ED: I think you can still reference them if they are paint sources
20:56:16 <cyril> DiS: what is the painting area? Is that defined ?
20:57:19 <cyril> CM: I don't know if this is a CSS term, I assume its the background area
20:57:30 <heycam> (at least for background-image)
20:58:06 <cyril> DiS: for userSpaceOnUse, it is not defined how width and height are used
20:58:35 <cyril> ED: I think we should have a look at it
20:58:50 <cyril> ... Tab said he already made some minor changes to the spec
20:58:59 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:59:44 <cyril> ED: feel free to read the spec and make more comments
21:00:00 <cyril> ED: I will mail the questions we raised today
21:00:17 <ed> s/today/tomorrow
21:00:23 <cyril> DiS: we should be careful if we add new paint servers
21:00:55 <cyril> CM: it says in SVG 1.1 and talks about host language, so we should be safe
21:01:10 <cyril> TB: there is also #fill and video
21:01:47 <cyril> s/#fill/hatch fill/
21:02:21 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
21:02:55 <cyril> Topic: FX Spec Testing
21:03:41 <cyril> TB: basically, how are we going to test things in SVG 2 but more urgently the upcoming transform spec
21:03:54 <cyril> ... there are people writing tests for HTML
21:04:07 <cyril> ... what is the format going to be
21:04:27 <cyril> DiS: is it possible to port the CSS system to SVG ?
21:04:45 <cyril> TB: I don't know how well it's portable
21:05:03 <cyril> ... for instance in Inkscape you don't have HTML and JS
21:05:23 <cyril> ... looking at CSS, most of it relies on JS capturing and testing
21:05:38 <cyril> DiS: for WebKit, most tests for Transforms are JS
21:05:47 <cyril> ... but we could have ref tests
21:05:48 <shepazu> q+
21:06:06 <cyril> TB: yes
21:06:12 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:06:24 <cyril> CM: I thought that the framework was to support ref tests
21:06:41 <cyril> DS: I think you're right
21:06:58 <Zakim> +ChrisL
21:07:13 <cyril> ... we would be out of touch if we did not go in the framework
21:07:27 <cyril> ... but for UA that don't support JS or CSS we should do something
21:07:54 <cyril> ... I'll try to have someone from the testing activity in the SVG call
21:08:12 <cyril> ... we definitely one single unified framework at W3C and have it work for SVG
21:08:25 <cyril> ... I'll see if we can have someone for next week
21:08:45 <cyril> CM: if you're wondering what to do for immediately
21:08:56 <cyril> ... I suggest you write plain SVG ref tests 
21:09:20 <cyril> ... and once we have some framework running, we can convert them automatically
21:09:54 <cyril> ... do you have a command line tool that render it to a PNG
21:10:07 <cyril> TB: yes
21:10:40 <Tav> http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CSS/index.html
21:10:41 <cyril> DiS: another thing is the size of the tests
21:11:18 <cyril> TB: I started to write some tests in the same format as we did before
21:11:47 <cyril> DS: Philippe Le Hegaret could call
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21:11:58 <Zakim> +Plh
21:12:48 <shepazu> http://w3c-test.org/
21:12:55 <cyril> TB: How can we do tests for renderers that don't have access to JS
21:13:08 <cyril> PLH: there is no way to do that automatically
21:13:20 <cyril> ... SVG will write many ref tests
21:13:43 <cyril> ... and in most of hte cases it would work
21:13:59 <cyril> ... the framework that we have has the ability to have ref tests
21:14:17 <cyril> ... but they have to be run manually if you want to test Inkscape
21:14:30 <cyril> CL: the framework is a bit different from what we have 
21:14:47 <cyril> ... all pages are forms so that you can directly say if it passes or fails
21:14:55 <cyril> ... the reporting is automatic
21:15:14 <cyril> CM: does that do automation of ref tests
21:15:48 <cyril> PLH: no, it will display the test next to each other and there will be button for people to say pass/fail
21:16:05 <plh> http://w3c-test.org/framework/
21:16:10 <cyril> ... the main framework is here
21:16:27 <cyril> ... PHP scripts maintained by Robin Berjon
21:16:41 <cyril> ... there is a Bugzilla
21:16:52 <cyril> ... Peter Linss contributes to 
21:17:09 <cyril> ... it will allow you to run various kinds of tests
21:17:24 <cyril> ... for ref tests, I'm looking at some 
21:17:41 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:17:45 <plh> http://w3c-test.org/framework/test/woff-ua/blocks-extraneous-data-001/
21:17:55 <cyril> ... this one is a ref test for WOFF
21:18:48 <cyril> ... the framework is independent of the tests format, it is only here to gather results
21:18:53 <plh> http://w3c-test.org/framework/test/nav-timing-default/test_navigate_within_document.html/
21:18:59 <cyril> DiS: how do you test animations and transitions
21:19:06 <cyril> PLH: we have no way to test that
21:19:26 <cyril> DS: you could have ref tests script based
21:19:56 <cyril> ... there is a way to test animations, if you allow scripts
21:20:23 <ChrisL> q+
21:20:35 <cyril> PLH: for technologies that we can't automate, the fallback is user interaction
21:20:35 <shepazu> q-
21:20:58 <cyril> ... we support well JS tests and we ask everyone to use the same harness
21:21:20 <cyril> ... but we also say write ref tests and then manual
21:21:46 <cyril> ... if someone comes up with a test method that works in a browser, we should be able to integrate it 
21:22:09 <cyril> DS: do you have a document describing the architecture of the framework
21:22:19 <plh> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/testrunner.svg
21:22:24 <cyril> PLH: no, we have not spend much time on documentation so far
21:22:54 <heycam> ack ChrisL
21:23:40 <cyril> PLH: Sheperd is the name of the CSS Framework, this is running a modified version of that framework
21:24:24 <cyril> ... if we are going to help editors, this would need to have a completely different approach
21:25:07 <cyril> CC: I think the goal is that tests be compatible for both automated tests and editor tests
21:25:47 <cyril> PLH: one of the advantage of the harness is that you can overload the functions
21:26:00 <cyril> CM: for the ref tests, there is no restriciton on the format of the tests
21:26:16 <cyril> PLH: no, as long as we can display the document we are good
21:26:29 <cyril> CM: and we need to write a manifest file to index our tests
21:26:36 <cyril> CL: it's fairly easy
21:27:18 <cyril> CL: we need to work out what needs to be done to have reference to spec in the tests
21:27:32 <cyril> PLH: the framework does not put any requirements on metadata
21:28:06 <cyril> ... for instance the CSS WG is very rigid on the metadata, while the HTML WG does not have any constraint
21:28:20 <cyril> ... you can put metadata in the manifest file ...
21:28:53 <cyril> CL: there is a script that can be added to the spec to auto-annotate the spec with links to go directly to the tests
21:29:04 <cyril> PLH: you can also deploy PHP files if you need
21:29:22 <cyril> ... for instance for XHR, there is some behavior of the server 
21:29:32 <cyril> ... that is required
21:29:47 <cyril> ... that is why we are running it on another server, to avoid security issues
21:30:12 <cyril> ... I
21:30:29 <cyril> ... am guessing that you will have more requirements 
21:30:35 <cyril> ... we could have Robin or Peter join in
21:30:58 <cyril> DS: Robin knows SVG will and can understand what we will need
21:31:06 <cyril> CM: yes that is fine
21:31:24 <cyril> ... we should have somebody take charge during the week of thinking of our requirements
21:32:01 <cyril> PLH: one of the issues we have know is testing WebSockets but I don't think we will have these problems
21:32:09 <cyril> CM: any volunteer
21:32:16 <cyril> DS: Tav ?
21:32:33 <cyril> TB: I'm a little worried that I don't know about the SMIL testing ...
21:32:43 <cyril> CM: why don't we start a wiki page
21:32:49 <cyril> TB: yes, I'll do that
21:33:04 <plh> --> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TestInfra/goals Testing/Requirements
21:33:06 <cyril> ACTION: Tav to start a wiki page on SVG testing requirements
21:33:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3240 - Start a wiki page on SVG testing requirements [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2012-03-01].
21:33:34 <cyril> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:33:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html cyril
21:33:44 <Zakim> -Plh
21:33:45 <Zakim> -ed
21:33:46 <Zakim> -cabanier
21:33:47 <Zakim> -krit
21:33:49 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:33:49 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:33:50 <Zakim> -heycam
21:33:52 <Zakim> -Tav
21:34:00 <Zakim> -cyrilaway
21:34:02 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM has ended
21:34:02 <Zakim> Attendees were Doug_Schepers, Tav, heycam, [IPcaller], ed, +1.612.980.aaaa, cabanier, ChrisL, +1.415.832.aabb, cyril|away, krit, [Microsoft], Plh
21:36:01 <shepazu> sent email
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