IRC log of html-a11y on 2012-02-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:01:48 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-html-a11y-irc
16:01:50 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
16:01:52 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
16:01:53 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
16:01:53 [trackbot]
Date: 23 February 2012
16:02:35 [Zakim]
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16:02:50 [MichaelC]
zakim, this is 2119
16:03:57 [Stevef]
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16:04:21 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
16:04:50 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
16:05:03 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:06:07 [Zakim]
+Cooper
16:06:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, ??P29, [IPcaller], Cooper (muted)
16:06:25 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P29 is Janina_Sajka
16:06:39 [MichaelC]
zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner
16:06:54 [JF]
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16:07:13 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
16:07:13 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
16:07:13 [janina]
agenda+ Meetings on 1 & 8 March: Who's Available?
16:07:13 [janina]
agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mapping; Text
16:07:13 [janina]
agenda+ Issue-203 Media Element Text Description http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203
16:07:16 [janina]
agenda+ Issues30, -31, -204
16:07:19 [janina]
agenda+ F2F for the TF?
16:07:21 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business
16:07:24 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
16:07:26 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
16:07:29 [janina]
agenda+ be done
16:07:33 [MichaelC]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Feb/0162.html
16:07:44 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
16:07:53 [MichaelC]
scribe: MichaelC
16:08:07 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
16:08:21 [Zakim]
+Janina_Sajka; got it
16:08:37 [Zakim]
+Steve_Faulkner; got it
16:10:10 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Meetings on 1 & 8 March: Who's Available?" taken up [from janina]
16:10:19 [MichaelC]
js: who's unavailable next week?
16:10:21 [MichaelC]
John, Janina, Léonie at CSUN
16:10:30 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:10:37 [MichaelC]
js: what about following week?
16:10:44 [MichaelC]
zakim, IPcaller is Léonie_Watson
16:11:11 [Zakim]
+Judy
16:11:13 [Zakim]
+Léonie_Watson; got it
16:11:32 [MichaelC]
Janina, Michael, Cynthia at PF FtF and / or SXSW
16:11:34 [janina]
q?
16:11:39 [janina]
q?
16:12:24 [MichaelC]
jb: would like to schedule a fallback meeting time
16:12:31 [MichaelC]
js: haven't succeeded in past at finding a time
16:12:50 [MichaelC]
jf: hard to do meetings after start of working day Pacific
16:13:03 [LeonieW]
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16:13:20 [MichaelC]
RESOLUTION: Next meeting is 15 March 2012
16:14:47 [MichaelC]
js: note some of us will have face to face opportunities at the upcoming locales and may have opportunity to get work done
16:15:20 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
16:15:20 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mapping; Text" taken up [from janina]
16:16:07 [MichaelC]
lw: Bug triage meeting once every other week to track new bugs
16:16:14 [MichaelC]
most not accessibility
16:16:30 [LeonieW]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16018
16:16:33 [MichaelC]
but want input on a couple
16:17:04 [MichaelC]
wanted to explore whether form controls that are disabled should be focusable or not
16:17:49 [MichaelC]
HTML doesn't exclude disabled controls
16:17:54 [MichaelC]
the bug requests that they be non-focusable
16:19:18 [MichaelC]
cs: think most browsers remove them from tab order
16:20:21 [MichaelC]
lw: bug filer goes into specifics of UA behaviour
16:20:33 [MichaelC]
jf: if disabled should be non-focusable
16:22:02 [MichaelC]
mc: checking spec, apparently via a double negative spec says disabled form controls are not focusable
16:22:14 [MichaelC]
so bug is on what happens if you use tabindex
16:22:45 [MichaelC]
js: benefit to landing on controls and knowing they're disabled, otoh benefit to not being bothered with them
16:23:32 [MichaelC]
cs: propose correct behaviour would be not to focus disabled controls
16:23:44 [MichaelC]
mc: even if tabindex set?
16:24:43 [MichaelC]
cs: yes
16:24:50 [Zakim]
-Judy
16:24:51 [Zakim]
+Judy
16:25:03 [paulc]
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16:25:04 [MichaelC]
mc: ok, but would change meaning of tabindex in a limited circumstance
16:25:14 [MichaelC]
cs: means "disabled" is a higher order bit than "tabindex"
16:25:32 [MichaelC]
RESOLUTION: add a11ytf keyword to 16018
16:26:18 [MichaelC]
lw: note bug triage sub-team is low on members
16:26:34 [MichaelC]
only Léonie, Michael, Hans regularly participating
16:26:43 [MichaelC]
-- AAPI
16:26:59 [MichaelC]
cs: working on the spec
16:27:11 [MichaelC]
table is more dynamic now so easier to use, since lots of columns
16:27:15 [MichaelC]
some details being added
16:27:32 [MichaelC]
-- Text
16:28:12 [MichaelC]
jb: discussed meta name=generator and denial of reopen request
16:28:56 [MichaelC]
thought the denial didn't address the main point
16:29:22 [MichaelC]
and questions were on tangential aspects
16:29:42 [richardschwerdtfe]
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16:29:54 [MichaelC]
question of pursuing Formal Objection, something the text sub-team thought might be needed in next few weeks
16:30:00 [MichaelC]
also looked at HTML-ISSUE-204
16:30:08 [MichaelC]
aria-describedby vs longdesc
16:30:12 [Zakim]
+Rich
16:30:21 [MichaelC]
have requested coordination discussion
16:30:56 [JF]
+q
16:31:01 [MichaelC]
also looked at location of alt guidance change proposal
16:31:04 [MichaelC]
is more of a TF item now
16:32:18 [MichaelC]
need a way to keep discussion moving, given that meetings canceled next couple weeks
16:32:35 [MichaelC]
and address questions already raised
16:32:50 [MichaelC]
finally looked at figcaption
16:32:55 [MichaelC]
ended up not filing a change proposal
16:33:46 [MichaelC]
evidence for cutoff length wasn't as strong as expected
16:34:10 [MichaelC]
still interested in this issue, may work in background and bring forward later
16:34:27 [MichaelC]
so this is no longer on the urgent path
16:34:32 [MichaelC]
Text sub-team also not meeting next week
16:34:34 [MichaelC]
ack j
16:34:51 [MichaelC]
jf: am in process of putting together a test suite for aria-describedby
16:35:02 [janina]
ack j
16:35:15 [MichaelC]
focus on HTML-ISSUE-30 as well as HTML-ISSUE-204
16:35:50 [MichaelC]
note your blog entry on aria-hidden useful
16:36:12 [MichaelC]
<http://john.foliot.ca/aria-hidden/>
16:36:43 [MichaelC]
I plan to do same for aria-describedby as I did for aria-hidden
16:36:47 [Judy]
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16:37:03 [MichaelC]
rs: why use aria-describedby in place of longdesc? it's a hack
16:37:14 [MichaelC]
jb: think there's not understanding of the issues behind it
16:37:31 [MichaelC]
rs: setting aria-hidden not necessarily hidden from AAPI
16:37:38 [MichaelC]
ARIA UAIG permits not hiding it
16:37:40 [Judy]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:37:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-html-a11y-minutes.html Judy
16:38:35 [MichaelC]
want to address via new ARIA property down the road, not misuse the current version of ARIA
16:38:46 [MichaelC]
jb: need to clarify some stuff
16:40:29 [MichaelC]
<discussion of what to clarify where>
16:42:06 [MichaelC]
cs, rs: have proposal to add aria-describedat in ARIA 1.1
16:42:26 [MichaelC]
js: but that doesn't solve the immediate situation, so we still have to address
16:42:59 [MichaelC]
jf: there are some contradictions that need to be clarified in ARIA
16:43:21 [MichaelC]
and then state that the current HTML proposal doesn't meet the use case requirements
16:43:39 [MichaelC]
-- Canvas
16:43:48 [MichaelC]
rs: all change proposals are in
16:44:05 [MichaelC]
one on caret and selection
16:44:17 [MichaelC]
resubmitted an earlier one minus text-based line and focus ring
16:44:21 [MichaelC]
because what's in spec now is fine
16:44:40 [MichaelC]
frank submitted a proposal to use bounds of object for hit testing
16:44:43 [MichaelC]
hasn't been reviewed
16:45:18 [MichaelC]
would probably need some proposed ARIA 1.1 features to support
16:45:26 [MichaelC]
cs: is this what we discussed last November?
16:45:38 [MichaelC]
rs: he submitted one that we did discuss
16:46:04 [MichaelC]
but also another one that uses caret and selection in script apis
16:46:08 [MichaelC]
that we haven't examined
16:46:46 [MichaelC]
there's a third change proposal that you shouldn't do rich text editing in canvas because it's too hard
16:46:57 [MichaelC]
not sure what to do with that as a change proposal
16:47:11 [MichaelC]
working on a presentation for SXSW that will demo this in three browsers
16:47:30 [MichaelC]
when will change proposals be reviewed?
16:47:34 [MichaelC]
js: it's started
16:47:46 [MichaelC]
rs: due to travel over next month, will be hard to respond to counter-proposals
16:48:03 [MichaelC]
js: hasn't come up yet, can request these things not be tossed our way too quickly
16:48:18 [Judy]
q+
16:48:23 [MichaelC]
ack j
16:48:24 [janina]
ack j
16:48:56 [MichaelC]
cs: asks Rich to send concerns to Frank
16:49:03 [MichaelC]
jb: CS can you help on that?
16:49:12 [MichaelC]
cs: can't get response inside Microsoft before 29th
16:49:18 [MichaelC]
<of March?>
16:50:03 [Judy]
q+
16:50:11 [MichaelC]
would be helpful to ask chairs to put this at end of queue
16:50:31 [MichaelC]
<March company deadlines make hard to work on W3C stuff right now>
16:52:25 [MichaelC]
jb: process guidance confusing and affecting our response times
16:53:25 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
16:53:25 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, MichaelC
16:53:38 [Judy]
q-
16:53:41 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
16:53:41 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Issue-203 Media Element Text Description http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203" taken up [from janina]
16:54:25 [Judy]
zakim, who's here?
16:54:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, Léonie_Watson, Judy, Rich
16:54:27 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Judy, richardschwerdtfe, paulc, LeonieW, JF, Stevef, Zakim, RRSAgent, davidb, MichaelC, janina, [tm], MikeSmith, trackbot
16:54:32 [MichaelC]
js: we don't have a whole
16:54:47 [MichaelC]
bifurcation of the proposals is affecting our success
16:55:11 [MichaelC]
understand why need to have breaking down of the problem
16:55:19 [MichaelC]
but we're chasing details and not meeting the whole
16:55:26 [MichaelC]
maybe not useful to pursue details
16:55:46 [MichaelC]
jf: would like to request HTML-ISSUE-203 be put on hold until outstanding issues resolved
16:56:05 [MichaelC]
js: chairs were happy to put processing on hold, but wanted a conditional proposal in by deadline
16:56:18 [MichaelC]
but I'm not convinced the conditional proposal working in our faour
16:56:31 [MichaelC]
s/faour/favour/
16:56:56 [MichaelC]
cs: could we do a conditional proposal that outlines the various conditions we would support?
16:57:00 [MichaelC]
jf: that's a
16:57:04 [MichaelC]
js: decision tree
16:57:22 [MichaelC]
jf: all the options we're bringing forward are in limbo
16:57:44 [MichaelC]
don't know how to put together a change proposal
16:58:01 [MichaelC]
maybe CS proposal not to close issue until dependencies resolved is the way to go
16:58:25 [MichaelC]
cs: there was proposal to resolve using resolution to HTML-ISSUE-30
16:58:34 [MichaelC]
but what happens if we're not happy with resolution to that?
16:58:40 [MichaelC]
would be good to provide options
16:58:52 [MichaelC]
js: an aria-describedat solution might work here also
16:59:01 [MichaelC]
jf: but that doesn't exist yet
16:59:14 [MichaelC]
and hard to substantiate a proposal with something that doesn't yet exist
16:59:22 [janina]
q?
16:59:24 [MichaelC]
<related examples tossed around>
16:59:49 [MichaelC]
so we're chasing our tails
17:00:02 [MichaelC]
js: we're getting pushed into talking about Y when we need to talk about X
17:01:19 [MichaelC]
cs: we had come to agreement on a conditional proposal that seemed to satisfy everyone
17:01:30 [Judy]
q+
17:01:34 [MichaelC]
we should write that, backing out might seem like bad faith
17:01:43 [MichaelC]
jf: but don't know how to write it sensibly
17:01:54 [MichaelC]
to many if-then-else in it
17:01:59 [MichaelC]
but will take a try
17:02:16 [MichaelC]
js: reminder we're past deadline, so need it by tomorrow
17:02:27 [MichaelC]
jf: do we let it go then?
17:02:35 [MichaelC]
jb: do proposal as a placeholder, we can refine later
17:02:51 [MichaelC]
prefer not to drop this
17:03:08 [MichaelC]
ack j
17:03:11 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
17:03:12 [Zakim]
-Léonie_Watson
17:03:13 [Zakim]
-Judy
17:03:14 [Zakim]
-Janina_Sajka
17:03:16 [Zakim]
-Rich
17:03:20 [Zakim]
-Steve_Faulkner
17:03:22 [Zakim]
-Cooper
17:03:50 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
17:03:50 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
17:03:50 [Zakim]
Attendees were John_Foliot, Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, Léonie_Watson, Rich
17:05:46 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC
17:54:38 [richardschwerdtfe]
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