16:01:48 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
16:01:48 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-html-a11y-irc
16:01:50 RRSAgent, make logs world
16:01:52 Zakim, this will be 2119
16:01:53 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
16:01:53 Date: 23 February 2012
16:02:35 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
16:02:50 zakim, this is 2119
16:03:57 Stevef has joined #html-a11y
16:04:21 ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
16:04:50 zakim, who's on the phone?
16:05:03 +[IPcaller]
16:06:07 +Cooper
16:06:16 On the phone I see John_Foliot, ??P29, [IPcaller], Cooper (muted)
16:06:25 zakim, ??P29 is Janina_Sajka
16:06:39 zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner
16:06:54 JF has joined #html-a11y
16:07:13 Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
16:07:13 Chair: Janina_Sajka
16:07:13 agenda+ Meetings on 1 & 8 March: Who's Available?
16:07:13 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mapping; Text
16:07:13 agenda+ Issue-203 Media Element Text Description http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203
16:07:16 agenda+ Issues30, -31, -204
16:07:19 agenda+ F2F for the TF?
16:07:21 agenda+ Other Business
16:07:24 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
16:07:26 agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
16:07:29 agenda+ be done
16:07:33 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Feb/0162.html
16:07:44 +Cynthia_Shelly
16:07:53 scribe: MichaelC
16:08:07 zakim, next item
16:08:21 +Janina_Sajka; got it
16:08:37 +Steve_Faulkner; got it
16:10:10 agendum 1. "Meetings on 1 & 8 March: Who's Available?" taken up [from janina]
16:10:19 js: who's unavailable next week?
16:10:21 John, Janina, Léonie at CSUN
16:10:30 +[IPcaller]
16:10:37 js: what about following week?
16:10:44 zakim, IPcaller is Léonie_Watson
16:11:11 +Judy
16:11:13 +Léonie_Watson; got it
16:11:32 Janina, Michael, Cynthia at PF FtF and / or SXSW
16:11:34 q?
16:11:39 q?
16:12:24 jb: would like to schedule a fallback meeting time
16:12:31 js: haven't succeeded in past at finding a time
16:12:50 jf: hard to do meetings after start of working day Pacific
16:13:03 LeonieW has joined #html-a11y
16:13:20 RESOLUTION: Next meeting is 15 March 2012
16:14:47 js: note some of us will have face to face opportunities at the upcoming locales and may have opportunity to get work done
16:15:20 zakim, next item
16:15:20 agendum 2. "Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mapping; Text" taken up [from janina]
16:16:07 lw: Bug triage meeting once every other week to track new bugs
16:16:14 most not accessibility
16:16:30 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16018
16:16:33 but want input on a couple
16:17:04 wanted to explore whether form controls that are disabled should be focusable or not
16:17:49 HTML doesn't exclude disabled controls
16:17:54 the bug requests that they be non-focusable
16:19:18 cs: think most browsers remove them from tab order
16:20:21 lw: bug filer goes into specifics of UA behaviour
16:20:33 jf: if disabled should be non-focusable
16:22:02 mc: checking spec, apparently via a double negative spec says disabled form controls are not focusable
16:22:14 so bug is on what happens if you use tabindex
16:22:45 js: benefit to landing on controls and knowing they're disabled, otoh benefit to not being bothered with them
16:23:32 cs: propose correct behaviour would be not to focus disabled controls
16:23:44 mc: even if tabindex set?
16:24:43 cs: yes
16:24:50 -Judy
16:24:51 +Judy
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16:25:04 mc: ok, but would change meaning of tabindex in a limited circumstance
16:25:14 cs: means "disabled" is a higher order bit than "tabindex"
16:25:32 RESOLUTION: add a11ytf keyword to 16018
16:26:18 lw: note bug triage sub-team is low on members
16:26:34 only Léonie, Michael, Hans regularly participating
16:26:43 -- AAPI
16:26:59 cs: working on the spec
16:27:11 table is more dynamic now so easier to use, since lots of columns
16:27:15 some details being added
16:27:32 -- Text
16:28:12 jb: discussed meta name=generator and denial of reopen request
16:28:56 thought the denial didn't address the main point
16:29:22 and questions were on tangential aspects
16:29:42 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
16:29:54 question of pursuing Formal Objection, something the text sub-team thought might be needed in next few weeks
16:30:00 also looked at HTML-ISSUE-204
16:30:08 aria-describedby vs longdesc
16:30:12 +Rich
16:30:21 have requested coordination discussion
16:30:56 +q
16:31:01 also looked at location of alt guidance change proposal
16:31:04 is more of a TF item now
16:32:18 need a way to keep discussion moving, given that meetings canceled next couple weeks
16:32:35 and address questions already raised
16:32:50 finally looked at figcaption
16:32:55 ended up not filing a change proposal
16:33:46 evidence for cutoff length wasn't as strong as expected
16:34:10 still interested in this issue, may work in background and bring forward later
16:34:27 so this is no longer on the urgent path
16:34:32 Text sub-team also not meeting next week
16:34:34 ack j
16:34:51 jf: am in process of putting together a test suite for aria-describedby
16:35:02 ack j
16:35:15 focus on HTML-ISSUE-30 as well as HTML-ISSUE-204
16:35:50 note your blog entry on aria-hidden useful
16:36:12
16:36:43 I plan to do same for aria-describedby as I did for aria-hidden
16:36:47 Judy has joined #html-a11y
16:37:03 rs: why use aria-describedby in place of longdesc? it's a hack
16:37:14 jb: think there's not understanding of the issues behind it
16:37:31 rs: setting aria-hidden not necessarily hidden from AAPI
16:37:38 ARIA UAIG permits not hiding it
16:37:40 rrsagent, make minutes
16:37:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-html-a11y-minutes.html Judy
16:38:35 want to address via new ARIA property down the road, not misuse the current version of ARIA
16:38:46 jb: need to clarify some stuff
16:40:29
16:42:06 cs, rs: have proposal to add aria-describedat in ARIA 1.1
16:42:26 js: but that doesn't solve the immediate situation, so we still have to address
16:42:59 jf: there are some contradictions that need to be clarified in ARIA
16:43:21 and then state that the current HTML proposal doesn't meet the use case requirements
16:43:39 -- Canvas
16:43:48 rs: all change proposals are in
16:44:05 one on caret and selection
16:44:17 resubmitted an earlier one minus text-based line and focus ring
16:44:21 because what's in spec now is fine
16:44:40 frank submitted a proposal to use bounds of object for hit testing
16:44:43 hasn't been reviewed
16:45:18 would probably need some proposed ARIA 1.1 features to support
16:45:26 cs: is this what we discussed last November?
16:45:38 rs: he submitted one that we did discuss
16:46:04 but also another one that uses caret and selection in script apis
16:46:08 that we haven't examined
16:46:46 there's a third change proposal that you shouldn't do rich text editing in canvas because it's too hard
16:46:57 not sure what to do with that as a change proposal
16:47:11 working on a presentation for SXSW that will demo this in three browsers
16:47:30 when will change proposals be reviewed?
16:47:34 js: it's started
16:47:46 rs: due to travel over next month, will be hard to respond to counter-proposals
16:48:03 js: hasn't come up yet, can request these things not be tossed our way too quickly
16:48:18 q+
16:48:23 ack j
16:48:24 ack j
16:48:56 cs: asks Rich to send concerns to Frank
16:49:03 jb: CS can you help on that?
16:49:12 cs: can't get response inside Microsoft before 29th
16:49:18
16:50:03 q+
16:50:11 would be helpful to ask chairs to put this at end of queue
16:50:31
16:52:25 jb: process guidance confusing and affecting our response times
16:53:25 zakim, next item
16:53:25 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, MichaelC
16:53:38 q-
16:53:41 zakim, next item
16:53:41 agendum 3. "Issue-203 Media Element Text Description http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203" taken up [from janina]
16:54:25 zakim, who's here?
16:54:25 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, Léonie_Watson, Judy, Rich
16:54:27 On IRC I see Judy, richardschwerdtfe, paulc, LeonieW, JF, Stevef, Zakim, RRSAgent, davidb, MichaelC, janina, [tm], MikeSmith, trackbot
16:54:32 js: we don't have a whole
16:54:47 bifurcation of the proposals is affecting our success
16:55:11 understand why need to have breaking down of the problem
16:55:19 but we're chasing details and not meeting the whole
16:55:26 maybe not useful to pursue details
16:55:46 jf: would like to request HTML-ISSUE-203 be put on hold until outstanding issues resolved
16:56:05 js: chairs were happy to put processing on hold, but wanted a conditional proposal in by deadline
16:56:18 but I'm not convinced the conditional proposal working in our faour
16:56:31 s/faour/favour/
16:56:56 cs: could we do a conditional proposal that outlines the various conditions we would support?
16:57:00 jf: that's a
16:57:04 js: decision tree
16:57:22 jf: all the options we're bringing forward are in limbo
16:57:44 don't know how to put together a change proposal
16:58:01 maybe CS proposal not to close issue until dependencies resolved is the way to go
16:58:25 cs: there was proposal to resolve using resolution to HTML-ISSUE-30
16:58:34 but what happens if we're not happy with resolution to that?
16:58:40 would be good to provide options
16:58:52 js: an aria-describedat solution might work here also
16:59:01 jf: but that doesn't exist yet
16:59:14 and hard to substantiate a proposal with something that doesn't yet exist
16:59:22 q?
16:59:24
16:59:49 so we're chasing our tails
17:00:02 js: we're getting pushed into talking about Y when we need to talk about X
17:01:19 cs: we had come to agreement on a conditional proposal that seemed to satisfy everyone
17:01:30 q+
17:01:34 we should write that, backing out might seem like bad faith
17:01:43 jf: but don't know how to write it sensibly
17:01:54 to many if-then-else in it
17:01:59 but will take a try
17:02:16 js: reminder we're past deadline, so need it by tomorrow
17:02:27 jf: do we let it go then?
17:02:35 jb: do proposal as a placeholder, we can refine later
17:02:51 prefer not to drop this
17:03:08 ack j
17:03:11 -Cynthia_Shelly
17:03:12 -Léonie_Watson
17:03:13 -Judy
17:03:14 -Janina_Sajka
17:03:16 -Rich
17:03:20 -Steve_Faulkner
17:03:22 -Cooper
17:03:50 -John_Foliot
17:03:50 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
17:03:50 Attendees were John_Foliot, Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, Léonie_Watson, Rich
17:05:46 rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC
17:54:38 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
18:56:31 Judy has left #html-a11y