14:26:57 RRSAgent has joined #rd 14:26:57 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/22-rd-irc 14:26:59 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:26:59 Zakim has joined #rd 14:27:01 Zakim, this will be 7394 14:27:01 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 14:27:02 Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference 14:27:02 Date: 22 February 2012 14:27:04 zakim, agenda? 14:27:04 I see nothing on the agenda 14:27:18 Chair: Harper_Simon 14:27:18 Agenda+ Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments) 14:27:19 Agenda+ Mobile Topic Pre-Call 14:27:19 Agenda+ Mobile Topic Selection of Planning Committee 14:27:19 Agenda+ Mobile Topic Selection of Scientific Committee 14:27:19 Agenda+ Continuation of W3C Note Group Edit 14:27:21 Agenda+ Any Other Business 14:27:31 zakim, save agenda 14:27:34 shawn has joined #rd 14:27:36 zakim, take up item 1 14:27:38 ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/22-rd-agenda.rdf 14:27:40 agendum 1. "Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)" taken up [from sharper] 14:27:43 rrsagent, make logs public 14:27:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:27:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/22-rd-minutes.html sharper 14:28:06 present+ Harper_Simon 14:28:21 regrets+ Miesenberge_Klaus 14:28:42 peter_ has joined #rd 14:29:09 +Vivienne 14:29:33 Hello all 14:29:37 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:29:37 WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has not yet started, shadi 14:29:38 On IRC I see peter_, shawn, Zakim, RRSAgent, sharper, vivienne, Peter, nonge_, shadi, trackbot 14:29:42 Hi all 14:29:49 Hmm more than one peter 14:29:56 trackbot, start meeting 14:29:58 Think I'll go back to thiessenp? 14:29:58 yeah sorry 14:29:58 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:30:00 Zakim, this will be 7394 14:30:00 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()9:30AM scheduled to start now 14:30:01 Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference 14:30:01 Date: 22 February 2012 14:30:07 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:30:07 WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has not yet started, shadi 14:30:08 giorgio has joined #rd 14:30:08 On IRC I see peter_, shawn, Zakim, RRSAgent, sharper, vivienne, Peter, nonge_, shadi, trackbot 14:30:15 zakim, this is rdwg 14:30:15 ok, shadi; that matches WAI_RDWG()9:30AM 14:30:17 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:30:17 On the phone I see ??P0, [IPcaller], ??P12, Shadi 14:30:19 +Shawn 14:30:28 zakim, mute me 14:30:28 Shawn should now be muted 14:31:19 zakim, ipcaller is Vivienne 14:31:19 +Vivienne; got it 14:31:29 +??P16 14:31:40 christos has joined #rd 14:31:42 zakim, ??p16 is Giorgio 14:31:42 +Giorgio; got it 14:31:43 +??P15 14:32:01 zakim, ??P15 is sharper 14:32:01 +sharper; got it 14:32:22 +??P18 14:32:39 zakim, ??P18 is me 14:32:39 +christos; got it 14:32:41 Joshue108 has joined #rd 14:32:54 zakim, ??p0 is Markel 14:32:54 +Markel; got it 14:33:02 zakim, mute markel 14:33:02 Markel should now be muted 14:33:04 my microphone is somehow not working 14:33:17 zakim, mute me 14:33:17 christos should now be muted 14:33:19 ack markel 14:33:41 zakim, code? 14:33:41 the conference code is 7394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Joshue108 14:33:42 Zakim, ??P12 is me 14:33:43 +Peter_Thiessen; got it 14:33:44 markel has joined #rd 14:33:58 Zakim, mute me 14:33:58 Peter_Thiessen should now be muted 14:34:04 +[IPcaller] 14:34:14 zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue 14:34:14 +Joshue; got it 14:34:29 zakim, mute me 14:34:29 Joshue should now be muted 14:34:44 zakim, unmute me 14:34:44 Joshue should no longer be muted 14:34:46 (PS: The meeting topic is still "meeting cancelled today") 14:34:49 sure 14:34:56 shadi has changed the topic to: "" 14:34:58 scribeNick: Joshue108 14:35:05 zakim, take up item 2 14:35:05 agendum 2. "Mobile Topic Pre-Call" taken up [from sharper] 14:35:23 Zakim, unmute me 14:35:23 Peter_Thiessen should no longer be muted 14:35:29 SH: Peter, can you please take us through this pre-call? 14:35:42 regrets: Klaus 14:35:48 http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile_Pre_CFP 14:35:49 PT: I'm looking up URI 14:35:56 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:35:56 On the phone I see Markel, Vivienne, Peter_Thiessen, Shadi, Shawn (muted), Giorgio, sharper, christos (muted), Joshue 14:36:08 +??P19 14:36:15 PT: We have a draft that you can check out, we'd love feedback. 14:36:35 PT: The dates are TBC 14:36:38 zakim, ??P19 is markel 14:36:38 +markel; got it 14:36:54 PT: We could combine the three topics into one Wiki. 14:37:15 SH: I've read this, I think its really good. 14:37:20 Zakim, mute me 14:37:20 Peter_Thiessen should now be muted 14:37:49 SH: Lets discuss it. I hope we can confirm this as Pre-call, confirm it, then move onto main call as per Shadis timeline. 14:37:53 SH: Thoughts? 14:38:00 I can see everyone loves it! 14:38:02 q+ 14:38:06 14:38:09 ack v 14:38:37 VC: I read it earlier. Is it too extensive, due to timeline? 14:38:54 SH: Yes. But we did make a descision to combine topics. 14:38:54 +q 14:39:04 SH: We will get overlap however. 14:39:06 ack P 14:39:07 q+ 14:39:08 zakim, ack 14:39:09 I don't understand 'ack', Peter_Thiessen 14:39:09 q+ 14:39:13 q+ to comment on Mobile accessibility guidelines and the relationship to existing guidelines; 14:39:15 zakim, mute me 14:39:15 Vivienne should now be muted 14:39:16 ack me 14:39:21 Zakim, unmute me 14:39:21 Peter_Thiessen was not muted, Peter_Thiessen 14:39:47 PT: I agree we are covering a lot. These are topics are quite new. Getting papers may be tough. 14:39:48 peter, can you speak louder? 14:39:59 ack me 14:40:00 PT: Combining them will help us to increase the number of papers. 14:40:20 SAZ: It looks fine to me. Good work for the pre-call. 14:40:32 Sorry Giorgio - new headset :) Was just saying that the topics are a bit new and getting papers might be tough - reason for combining into one symposium 14:40:37 SAZ: I wan't to run it by UAWG and other WAI groups. 14:40:54 ACTION: Shadi to send to WAI-Coordination Groups. 14:40:54 Created ACTION-12 - Send to WAI-Coordination Groups. [on Shadi Abou-Zahra - due 2012-02-29]. 14:41:00 (sounds good Shadi) 14:41:05 zakim, who is making noise? 14:41:11 + +49.228.943.aaaa 14:41:16 shawn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Peter_Thiessen (47%), Shadi (67%) 14:41:20 Zakim, mute me 14:41:20 Peter_Thiessen should now be muted 14:41:45 :) (sorry) 14:42:02 zakim, aaaa is Yehya 14:42:02 +Yehya; got it 14:42:33 SAZ: We need to bring to WAI-Coordination group, CSUN is on next week. Many will be there. 14:42:48 SH: Am happy to get feedback. 14:43:09 exactly - it's all dependent on when we send out the pre-call (so right before sending we can then update the dates) 14:43:17 SH: The date is important, public timeline starts when this is first released. We should get out asap - hopefully next week. 14:44:03 SAZ: Lets all raise it in the groups that we know. 14:44:11 JOC: I'll bring it to PF. 14:44:41 q 14:44:41 ACTION: Josh to bring Pre-call doc to PF 14:44:41 Created ACTION-13 - Bring Pre-call doc to PF [on Joshue O Connor - due 2012-02-29]. 14:44:48 q? 14:44:57 ack g 14:44:57 Shadi - since the wiki has tracking, feel free to tell the chairs to just edit the wiki draft (we can revert something if we disagree) 14:45:17 (good point :) 14:45:19 GB: Just a few points. The title may need to be explained (Pre). 14:45:38 (oops will remove that NOW) 14:45:49 q+ to say "pre-call" internal -- maybe "advanced notice" or such 14:45:49 GB: The point about 'how are the quality of metrics assessed". Metrics is out of place. 14:45:55 (copy and paste strikes again) 14:46:01 GB: Also the final date is to be determined. 14:46:08 GB: Remove tentative. 14:46:19 Ok so deadline 1st of April? (will edit now if so) 14:46:25 SH: Yes, April is do-able. 14:46:30 zakim, unmute me 14:46:30 Shawn should no longer be muted 14:46:40 SH: Shadi, will there be much feedback from co-ord group? 14:46:57 ack me 14:46:57 shawn, you wanted to comment on Mobile accessibility guidelines and the relationship to existing guidelines; and to say "pre-call" internal -- maybe "advanced notice" or such 14:47:01 SAZ: If we do get to announce in next week or two we may need to revisit but now its ok. 14:47:29 SLH: We are saying Pre-call, but this term may need to be changed. Advanced or similar. 14:47:33 +1 to Shawn 14:47:46 JOC: +1 to Shawn 14:47:47 provisional sounds ok to me 14:47:48 Ok, sure - Advance Call ? 14:47:49 s/ Advanced or similar./ Advanced Notice or similar./ 14:48:13 SH: Thats fine. Please do think about options. 14:48:37 SLH: What about a research perspective? 14:48:40 SH: Thats fine. 14:49:03 SLH: In the bullets, the mobile gls in relation to existing gls. 14:49:32 SLH: From a WAI perspective, we don't want to encourage the creation of more guidelines that cover issues that are already covered. 14:49:47 SLH: So we need to look at existing GLs that relate to mobile a11y. 14:50:04 SLH: We need to look at the gap. 14:50:16 +q 14:50:27 I think that the bullet point in the CFP refers to sth like this http://www.w3.org/TR/mwbp-wcag/ 14:50:28 Zakim, ackme 14:50:28 I don't understand 'ackme', Peter_Thiessen 14:50:29 SLH: We need to look at relevancy of what is there. 14:50:34 Zakim, unmute me 14:50:34 Peter_Thiessen should no longer be muted 14:50:39 ack P 14:50:53 PT: I agree with what Shawn said. 14:51:13 Zakim, mute me 14:51:13 Peter_Thiessen should now be muted 14:51:14 SH: Anyother points? 14:51:21 zakim, take up item 2 14:51:21 agendum 2. "Mobile Topic Pre-Call" taken up [from sharper] 14:51:41 zakim, close item 1 14:51:41 agendum 1, Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments), closed 14:51:43 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:51:43 2. Mobile Topic Pre-Call [from sharper] 14:51:51 yes 14:51:56 we had that for reviews 14:51:57 zakim, take up item 3 14:51:57 agendum 3. "Mobile Topic Selection of Planning Committee" taken up [from sharper] 14:52:16 (Wiki updated on two points: 1) from Giorgio to remove metrics bit, 2) Shawn's point about bullet two) 14:52:19 SAZ: This has been defined somewhere. 14:52:41 s/ more guidelines that cover issues that are already covered./ more guidelines that cover issues that are already covered in WAI guidelines./ 14:52:52 SAZ: I think that we may have experts not as a part of this group to review. 14:53:23 SH: is the planning committe a part of F2F? 14:53:40 SAZ: We can get people externally to help with review. 14:53:42 yeliz has joined #rd 14:53:50 :) 14:54:04 s/We need to look at the gap./We need to look at the gap and what else is needed -- maybe application guidance, specific techniques, etc./ 14:54:11 zakim, mute me 14:54:17 SAZ: In the last symposiom the planning and Scientific comminity were the same 14:54:18 Shawn should now be muted 14:54:28 s/comminity/community 14:54:48 SH: I move then that the planning and scientific should be the same. 14:54:51 I volunteer Simon :) 14:54:59 I volunteer to do that 14:55:01 I could 14:55:05 I volunteer too 14:55:07 I will 14:55:09 SH: Who wan'ts to be on the scientific committee. 14:55:12 Oh right but I meant I volunteer you Simon :) oh perfect 14:55:21 [ shawn interested but not sure about time committment ] 14:55:29 SAZ: Klaus or someone from his team maybe. 14:55:37 Would I be any help? 14:55:38 +[IPcaller] 14:55:39 JOC: Me also but can't commit. 14:55:48 Okay, then count me in 14:55:51 zakim, +[IPcaller] is yeliz 14:55:51 sorry, yeliz, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]' 14:56:13 zakim, +[IPcaller] is yeliz 14:56:13 sorry, yeliz, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]' 14:56:26 zakim, [IPcaller] is yeliz 14:56:26 +yeliz; got it 14:56:37 zakim, mute yeliz 14:56:37 yeliz should now be muted 14:56:39 Hi Yeliz, we just took a look at the pre call and made a few edits (nothing big) 14:56:46 zakim, close item 14:56:46 I don't understand 'close item', Joshue108 14:56:49 zakim, close item 3 14:56:49 agendum 3, Mobile Topic Selection of Planning Committee, closed 14:56:50 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:56:50 2. Mobile Topic Pre-Call [from sharper] 14:56:56 zakim, take up item 4 14:56:56 agendum 4. "Mobile Topic Selection of Scientific Committee" taken up [from sharper] 14:57:02 Sorry, all 14:57:12 for being late:( 14:57:15 SH: We will look at the doc, discuss etc. 14:57:21 missed the beginning of the discussion 14:57:34 (at my work people who are late for meetings are forced into doing 10 pushups :) 14:57:35 SH: We did well last week. I suggest we start at section 3. 14:57:47 :) 14:57:51 Can I have the link? 14:58:09 SH: Ok, so I'm starting at paragraph 19. "The papers that were presented [...]" 14:58:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-rd/2012Feb/0002.html 14:58:32 [[3. Current Research]] 14:58:47 SH: There were few edits last time, good job. 14:58:56 +1 14:59:02 +1 14:59:03 +1 14:59:06 +1 14:59:07 SH: Paragraph twenty section 3 is good. 14:59:18 +1 14:59:28 SH: Ok 14:59:57 SAZ: Is this is first ref to Symposium? 15:00:02 SAZ: Readers may not get it. 15:00:24 GB: Yes, it is. We could add a line in the introduction. 15:00:24 I agree with Shadi 15:00:42 SAZ: Ok, under section 1 intro. Yes. That'll fix it. 15:00:45 zakim, unmute yeliz 15:00:45 yeliz should no longer be muted 15:00:57 GB: Markel can you take notes? 15:01:05 MV: I am doing it. 15:01:39 Y: I have a couple of suggestions, I would like some aspects expanded. 15:01:41 +1 Yeliz 15:01:49 q+ 15:02:19 good point Yeliz 15:02:22 Y: The papers are in the refs, but are mixed with others. Should there be an Appendix? A list of accepted papers. 15:02:53 SH: The appendix will have those that are listed. 15:03:01 Y: So the note will have one? 15:03:05 SH: Yes. 15:03:08 Y: Great. 15:03:26 zakim, mute yeliz 15:03:26 yeliz should now be muted 15:03:50 yes, Giorgio 15:04:30 GB: Gives overview of structure of note. 15:04:34 q+ 15:04:48 q- 15:04:52 SH: The Appendix does have to be included. 15:05:04 I agree with Giorgio 15:05:09 q+ 15:05:09 GB: Ok, I will put in the list of accepted papers. 15:05:19 ack g 15:05:38 SAZ: There may be room for discussion on this. 15:05:46 it was clear in the CFP 15:06:00 SH: I am firm about it. So authors will get a referenceable paper. 15:06:03 q+ what would the citatio0n format be? 15:06:14 q+ 15:06:22 SAZ: Maybe we need to find new wording. 15:06:30 zakim, unmute yeliz 15:06:30 yeliz should no longer be muted 15:07:00 Y: I agree with Shadi. The note without the full papers would be self contained. 15:07:07 SH: I disagree. 15:07:22 agree with Simon 15:08:25 :) 15:09:00 q+ 15:09:13 q- 15:09:25 [ links on W3C website will not change -- whether or not they are part of the Note ] 15:09:36 can we be given the floor? 15:09:37 zakim, mute yeliz 15:09:37 yeliz should now be muted 15:09:40 q? 15:09:47 q+ 15:10:04 ack markel 15:10:05 ack mar 15:11:02 ack gio 15:11:06 ack g 15:11:30 q+ to say agree citable, but does not have to be appendix -- in fact, then harder to cite specific paper. instead unique uri 15:12:07 Markel, I don't see how papers will be cited when they are in the appendix in the research note? 15:12:31 I agree with Giorgio 15:12:32 q- last 15:12:39 q- last 15:12:52 how papers will be cited in the appendix? 15:12:58 ack me 15:12:59 shawn, you wanted to say agree citable, but does not have to be appendix -- in fact, then harder to cite specific paper. instead unique uri 15:13:01 ack shawn 15:13:12 Isn't better that papers have a permanent place to be cited? 15:13:21 From http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/2011/metrics/cfp: "Accepted papers will be published - in an attributable form - as part of the proceedings and in the ensuing publication (http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/process#publications and http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/process#credits)." 15:13:24 They really have to be citeable 15:13:30 I agree with Shawn 15:13:48 ack me 15:14:05 we have to find a mechanism so that papers can be citeable no matter if they are in an appendix or any other thing 15:14:13 Does W3C have a policy about DOI? 15:14:25 Shawn? Is there a policy on DOI? 15:14:34 (sounds good Shadi) 15:14:51 zakim, mute me 15:14:51 Shawn should now be muted 15:15:11 SH: We'll come back to this. 15:15:22 3.1 Addressing Validity and Reliability 15:15:26 [[3.1 Addressing Validity and Reliability]] 15:15:27 SH: Section 3.1 - comments? 15:15:32 zakim, unmute yeliz 15:15:32 yeliz should no longer be muted 15:15:38 [ yeliz - not that i know of, but happy to check into it ] 15:16:04 q+ 15:16:11 we can put links not sure about LIFT 15:16:14 ack g 15:16:37 +1 to giorgio 15:16:38 I'm ambivalent about this 15:16:39 GB: The less we write without reducing formation the better. 15:16:40 +1 to section 15:16:45 zakim, mute yeliz 15:16:45 yeliz should now be muted 15:16:47 Y: Thats fine. 15:17:19 there is a typo in the first line 15:17:19 SH: 3.2 paragraph 23 - comments? 15:17:24 zakim, unmute me 15:17:24 Joshue was not muted, Joshue108 15:17:26 [[3.2 Tool Support for Metrics]] 15:17:38 scribe: shadi 15:17:41 q+ 15:17:46 ack me 15:17:51 ack v 15:17:54 -Joshue 15:17:57 VC: type in first line 15:18:03 got it 15:18:07 zakim, mute me 15:18:07 Vivienne should now be muted 15:18:19 [[3.3 Addressing Large-Scale Measurement]] 15:18:46 got it 15:18:47 GB: typo "of of" 15:19:01 [[3.4 Targeting Particular Accessibility Issues]] 15:19:20 from an instance 15:19:24 typing mistake 15:20:32 see Referencing and Linking to WAI Guidelines and Technical Documents http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/linking.html 15:20:34 thanks you are right, I will retrieve that URI, 15:20:38 zakim, mute yeliz 15:20:38 yeliz was already muted, yeliz 15:20:43 I thin there is a double fullstgop after the reference to NFernandes11a 15:20:46 *think 15:21:09 yes, 3.5 15:21:10 [[3.5 Novel Measurement Approaches]] 15:21:11 yes, they are 15:21:44 I think it would be good to rephrase the last sentence 15:21:45 :) 15:21:45 typo - 'fulfilment' 15:21:47