16:28:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
16:28:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/22-css-irc
16:28:25 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #css
16:28:33 <plinss> zakim, this will be style
16:28:33 <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 32 minutes
16:42:55 <hober> hober has joined #css
16:51:00 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:51:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:51:22 <florianr> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
16:51:22 <Zakim> ok, florianr, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
16:54:26 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
16:55:17 <Phil> Phil has joined #css
16:55:20 <Zakim> +??P45
16:55:51 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
16:56:00 <glenn> zakim, who's here?
16:56:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], ??P45
16:56:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see bradk, Phil, oyvind, hober, Zakim, RRSAgent, cabanier, arno, Ms2ger, danielfilho, rworth, glenn, nimbu, myakura, drublic, florianr, leaverou, fantasai, vhardy,
16:56:01 <Zakim> ... sylvaing, alexmog, plinss, paul___irish, ed, shans, kojiishi, gsnedders, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, stearns, krijnh, lhnz, SimonSapin, jdaggett, arronei, shepazu, Bert,
16:56:01 <Zakim> ... macpherson, Hixie, trackbot
16:56:18 <glenn> zakim, i am [IPcaller]
16:56:18 <Zakim> ok, glenn, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
16:56:26 <Zakim> +plinss
16:56:43 <glenn> zakim, who's here?
16:56:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], ??P45, plinss
16:56:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see bradk, Phil, oyvind, hober, Zakim, RRSAgent, cabanier, arno, Ms2ger, danielfilho, rworth, glenn, nimbu, myakura, drublic, florianr, leaverou, fantasai, vhardy,
16:56:44 <Zakim> ... sylvaing, alexmog, plinss, paul___irish, ed, shans, kojiishi, gsnedders, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, stearns, krijnh, lhnz, SimonSapin, jdaggett, arronei, shepazu, Bert,
16:56:44 <Zakim> ... macpherson, Hixie, trackbot
16:56:49 <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaaa
16:56:53 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:57:01 <bradk> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:57:01 <Zakim> +bradk; got it
16:57:32 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:57:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:57:43 <florianr> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
16:57:43 <Zakim> ok, florianr, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
16:57:49 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
16:58:01 <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:58:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P45, plinss, bradk, [Microsoft], [IPcaller]
16:58:10 <glenn> i'll drop and recall
16:58:17 <Zakim> -??P45
16:58:21 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aabb
16:58:28 <Zakim> +??P9
16:58:43 <Zakim> +??P38
16:59:03 <glenn> zakim, i am +??P38
16:59:03 <Zakim> sorry, glenn, I do not see a party named '+??P38'
16:59:14 <glenn> zakim, i am ??P38
16:59:15 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
16:59:20 <Zakim> +nimbu
16:59:34 <plinss> zakim, [IPcaller] has florianr
16:59:34 <Zakim> +florianr; got it
16:59:44 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:59:46 <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone
16:59:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', plinss
16:59:49 <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
16:59:49 <Zakim> +hober; got it
16:59:52 <Zakim> +antonp
16:59:55 <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:59:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, bradk, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], +1.206.324.aabb, ??P9, glenn, nimbu, [Apple], antonp
16:59:58 <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florianr
16:59:58 <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
17:00:07 <dstorey> dstorey has joined #css
17:00:43 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
17:00:50 <sylvaing> Zakim, aabb is sylvaing
17:00:50 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
17:01:00 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
17:01:00 <Zakim> +stearns
17:01:05 <Zakim> -bradk
17:01:09 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:01:12 <danielweck> danielweck has joined #css
17:01:13 <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
17:01:13 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
17:01:14 <plinss> zakim, [Mozilla] has dbaron
17:01:14 <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
17:01:28 <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:01:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], sylvaing, ??P9, glenn, nimbu, [Apple], antonp, [Mozilla], stearns, [Microsoft.a]
17:01:28 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
17:01:29 <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florianr
17:01:30 <bradk> doh!
17:01:31 <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
17:01:31 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
17:01:33 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has dbaron
17:01:33 <stearns> Zakim, who is noisy?
17:01:35 <Zakim> +smfr
17:01:37 <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aacc
17:01:42 <Zakim> -glenn
17:01:46 <vhardy_> vhardy_ has joined #css
17:01:47 <Zakim> stearns, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glenn (3%), [IPcaller] (43%)
17:01:52 <smfr> i really don't need to know that this is a customized something something conferencing system
17:01:58 <Zakim> +??P75
17:02:00 <hober> heh
17:02:01 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
17:02:07 <Zakim> +bradk
17:02:08 <stearns> I like hearing the word 'cybernetic'
17:02:13 <Zakim> +??P79
17:02:31 <glenn> zakim, ??P79 is me
17:02:31 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
17:02:35 <dbaron> Zakim is a customized Compunetix Contex Conferencing system
17:02:36 <stearns> I think we're hearing IPcaller's heartbeat
17:02:45 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
17:02:56 <stearns> ah, I've been hearing that wrong all along
17:03:08 <smfr> Zakim: who is noisy?
17:03:18 <smfr> Zakim, who is noisy?
17:03:19 <dbaron> Zakim, mute [IPcaller]
17:03:19 <Zakim> [IPcaller] should now be muted
17:03:25 <kimberly> kimberly has joined #css
17:03:28 <Zakim> smfr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 17 (53%), [Mozilla] (33%), [IPcaller] (9%)
17:03:33 <Rossen> Zakim, mute me
17:03:33 <Zakim> sorry, Rossen, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:03:39 <Zakim> + +1.215.286.aadd
17:03:49 <kimberly> Zakim, +aadd is me
17:03:49 <Zakim> sorry, kimberly, I do not recognize a party named '+aadd'
17:03:54 <Zakim> +Bert
17:04:00 <kimberly> Zakim, +1.215.286.aadd is me
17:04:00 <Zakim> +kimberly; got it
17:04:02 <katie> katie has joined #css
17:04:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
17:04:53 <Zakim> +tantek
17:04:55 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:04:56 <dstorey> I'm on the call but not sure which Id thingy i am
17:05:08 <plinss> zakim, unmute [IPcaller]
17:05:08 <Zakim> [IPcaller] should no longer be muted
17:05:12 <Zakim> +??P88
17:05:25 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P88 is me
17:05:38 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
17:05:47 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
17:05:54 <plinss> dstorey: http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim_Tips
17:06:00 <Zakim> + +1.206.427.aaee
17:06:16 <tantek> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:06:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], sylvaing, ??P9, nimbu, [Apple], antonp, [Mozilla], stearns, smfr, +1.408.536.aacc, ??P75, [Microsoft.aa], bradk, glenn,
17:06:20 <Zakim> ... kimberly, Bert, [IPcaller.a], tantek, danielweck, +1.206.427.aaee
17:06:20 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
17:06:20 <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florianr
17:06:20 <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
17:06:20 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has dbaron
17:06:40 <nimbu> I can be the scribe
17:06:48 <katie> katie on the phone...
17:07:01 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:07:11 <nimbu> plinss: anything to add to agenda?
17:07:24 <smfr> nimbu: i think you need to say scribenick: nimbu
17:07:28 <nimbu> sylvaing: YPF asked for extension and we havent heard back
17:07:31 <dbaron> ScribeNick: nimbu
17:07:48 <nimbu> fantasai: is there anything to discuss other than Last publishing update?
17:07:57 <fantasai> s/Last/grid
17:08:18 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
17:08:19 <nimbu> dbaron: there are transition issues worth discussing
17:08:27 <dbaron> s/transition/css3-transitions/
17:08:43 <nimbu> plinss: request from SVG for face to face currently scheduled for half a day, request for full day.
17:09:02 <nimbu> dbaron: not clear to me what is covered under that, and what is covered under our own meeting
17:09:11 <nimbu> vhardy: under FX we have transforms, filters, compositing
17:09:17 <Zakim> +SteveZ
17:09:20 <nimbu> dbaron: we have an awful lot of stuff we need to cover too
17:09:40 <sylvaing> s/YPF/WAIPF
17:09:40 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_ has joined #css
17:09:45 <nimbu> florianr: transforms, I agree, we need to talk about that. Rest of them, is there anything urgent.
17:10:22 <nimbu> plinss: any other logistical updates for the F2F?
17:10:24 <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/hamburg-2012
17:10:31 <stearns> one possibility is to meet together for transforms, then split into two groups for the rest of the day
17:10:39 <nimbu> vhardy: if people need hotels let us know as soon as possible. Also want to know if we can release the holds we had on the hotels.
17:10:47 <stearns> where some CSS people could continue to meet with the FX group
17:11:00 <nimbu> vhardy: by end of week we would release the hold.
17:11:05 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
17:11:17 <nimbu> plinss: requests to publish specs, variables - first WD. 
17:11:38 <nimbu> florianr: worth mentioning as an issue in the draft, naming of these things is still under debate.
17:11:51 <nimbu> florianr: other than that i am all for it.
17:11:56 <nimbu> plinss: anyone else?
17:12:11 <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Skype is your friend
17:12:11 <nimbu> RESOLVED: Publish variables as first working draft
17:12:34 <danielweck> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-speech/
17:12:43 <dbaron> ACTION Tab ensure variables is published as FPWD
17:12:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-447 - Ensure variables is published as FPWD [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2012-02-29].
17:12:46 <nimbu> plinss: speech - danielweck wants to take that to CR
17:12:48 <danielweck> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-speech
17:12:54 <danielweck> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-speech/
17:12:57 <Zakim> +howcome
17:13:15 <dbaron> and previous item was http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-variables/
17:13:25 <TabAtkins_> florianr: No, I'll be making some edits shortly.
17:13:46 <nimbu> RESOLVED take css-speech to CR
17:13:53 <danielweck> thank you!
17:13:56 <nimbu> (any action items here?)
17:14:27 <nimbu> plinss: any objections to publish another update to ??
17:14:47 <smfr> publish what?
17:14:55 <Zakim> +cabanier
17:15:09 <nimbu> RESOLVED: Publish an updated working draft of the grid specification
17:15:46 <nimbu> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-grid-align/
17:15:53 <Zakim> +??P2
17:15:57 <nimbu> florianr: i think it would be better to have everything under the same repo
17:16:00 <danielweck> +1
17:16:00 <smfr> +1
17:16:02 <kojiishi> zakim, ??p2 is me
17:16:02 <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
17:16:03 <nimbu> plinss: agree
17:16:05 <Ms2ger> s/??/Grid/
17:16:08 <TabAtkins_> +1
17:16:46 <fantasai> florianr: Because we share some files and we split and move and merge specs
17:16:50 <nimbu> plinss: would be useful for us to switch en-masse
17:17:15 <nimbu> fantasai: glenn is the pioneer in this respect, otherwise it would be easy to co-ordinate if we move all at once.
17:17:36 <nimbu> fantasai: put a black out for ?? hours stating no check-ins
17:18:08 <nimbu> fantasai: we need to get a couple of things set up on our server and make sure the documentation is all there.
17:18:10 <glenn> system team says they're looking into auto checkout but no schedule yet
17:18:19 <nimbu> florianr: we should block check-ins permanently in CVS
17:18:28 <nimbu> fantasai: files should be deleted in cvs
17:18:34 <nimbu> florianr: keep them in read-only mode.
17:18:57 <nimbu> fantasai: the cvs repo will be out of date, files should be deleted and old be redirected.
17:19:08 <nimbu> fantasai: if you go back to the revisions you will find them.
17:19:15 <nimbu> dbaron: use cvs remove
17:19:36 <nimbu> plinss: easier to do if we have one repo rather than n repositories
17:19:36 <Zakim> -??P75
17:19:51 <nimbu> fantasai: resolve on doing either one per spec or one per file.
17:19:59 <glenn> +1
17:20:09 <nimbu> plinss: i just want agreement that we are going to do this.
17:20:10 <smfr> +1
17:20:12 <nimbu> florianr: i am good.
17:20:24 <nimbu> plinss: anyone going to freakout if we are moving from cvs to mercurial
17:20:34 <Zakim> +??P7
17:20:39 <nimbu> ?? the issue seems to be if we can set checkout anytime soon, there is no ETA for what that involves
17:20:40 <sylvaing> i'm in favor
17:20:48 <Rossen> Zakim, Microsoft has me
17:20:48 <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
17:20:56 <dstorey> zakim, ??P7 is me
17:20:56 <Zakim> +dstorey; got it
17:20:59 <Ms2ger> Note that the auto-checkout works fine for webapps
17:21:00 <nimbu> florianr: eventually current urls will redirect or move to new urls permanently
17:21:10 <nimbu> fantasai: ursl on www.w3.org will stop working, they will redirect
17:21:20 <nimbu> fantasai: new system will be on csswg.org
17:21:43 <fantasai> s/system/checkout/
17:21:47 <nimbu> fantasai: if they get an ETA from systems team on checkout, we can redirect from csswg to there.
17:21:48 <fantasai> s/www/dev/
17:21:49 <Ms2ger> What's wrong with http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/css/raw-file/tip/values/Overview.html, say?
17:22:08 <stearns> s/ursl/urls/
17:22:18 <fantasai> Ms2ger, doesn't serve files over Apache, which means we're missing configs like DirectoryIndex, Redirect, etc.
17:22:25 <nimbu> howcome: could we ask the sytems team what is necessary to make it work? it doesnt seem to be an issue for other groups to create repo and get it served.
17:22:34 <sylvaing> (think that was tantek)
17:22:37 <nimbu> plinss: i think somebody asked them and they said they dont know when they can do it
17:22:38 <nimbu> oops
17:22:41 <nimbu> s/howcome/tantek
17:22:57 <nimbu> ?? the problem is 3 different published urls for editorial drafts
17:23:20 <nimbu> plinss: we can maintain mirror on csswg definitely, regardless of it existing elsewhere or not.
17:23:27 <nimbu> tantek: seems like extra admin.
17:23:38 <nimbu> plinss: its just me i can set up the cron job and keep it going forever.
17:24:04 <nimbu> florianr: we can have a script hook so it can get updated whenever any chage gets pushed?
17:24:06 <Ms2ger> That exists for the test repos, fwiw
17:24:17 <nimbu> plinss: if we can get it set up on dvcs server yes.
17:24:58 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_ has joined #css
17:25:28 <glenn> until the new uber-repo is set up, i'll continue using my new cssom repos, then will merge into the uber-repo
17:25:29 <nimbu> RESOLVED Have one repository for all our specs
17:25:50 <nimbu> TOPIC: CSS Transforms
17:26:11 <nimbu> plinss: svg group resolved to publish first WG, we should also resolve …on that
17:26:13 <smfr> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/
17:26:16 <nimbu> plinss: should be a no brainer.
17:26:29 <Ms2ger> How much will this delay getting 2D Transforms to CR?
17:26:35 <nimbu> fantasai: i object to publishing unless the issues link is linked from the draft
17:26:41 <ed> s/WG/WD
17:26:53 <fantasai> s/issues link/issues list/
17:26:54 <nimbu> tantek: i think if we resolve on accepting Aryeh as co-editor we can accept that action.
17:27:09 <nimbu> dbaron: you can copy the one I put in transitions and animations
17:27:26 <nimbu> plinss: agreement to publish with an update to the issues list?
17:27:35 <nimbu> plinss: anyone object to adding aryeh as editor?
17:27:47 <nimbu> RESOLVED: Add Aryeh as editor
17:28:01 <nimbu> RESOLVED: Publish first WD of transforms with the issues list.
17:28:04 <nimbu> (any actions?)
17:28:17 <dbaron> s/with the issues list/with the link to the issues list/
17:28:41 <Bert> (As it is listed as a CSS WD, I guess the action is on me to procure the Director's approval and publish...)
17:28:52 <nimbu> vhardy: aryeh sent an issue with a description. 
17:29:03 <fantasai> ACTION: ChrisL Publish css3-transforms
17:29:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-448 - Publish css3-transforms [on Chris Lilley - due 2012-02-29].
17:29:32 <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
17:29:32 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/02/22-css-irc#T17-29-32
17:29:48 <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
17:29:49 <dbaron> Gecko has a patch implementing the new background-position syntax
17:29:53 <nimbu> smfr: the issue is the transforms spec has two properties transform-origin and perspective-origin, intention was to match the spec on bg position. the syntax has changed relatively recently, not many browsers have implemented it yet.
17:30:04 <dbaron> (but it keeps transform-origin the same as it was)
17:30:19 <nimbu> smfr: transforms has z position, with new bg position, there is ambiguity between the new syntax. Aryeh suggested a number of possibilities
17:30:36 <nimbu> smfr: 1. should transform-o and perspective-o follow bg-position?
17:30:53 <nimbu> smfr: 2. how do we deal with z-offset issue? have an additional property transform-origin-z
17:31:05 <vhardy_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1135.html
17:31:07 <nimbu> smfr: keep z-offset separate to avoid ambiguity
17:31:18 <nimbu> smfr: add a slash syntax to keep z separate from x,y.
17:31:19 <AryehGregor> AryehGregor has joined #css
17:31:29 <nimbu> AryehGregor: has more in the email.
17:31:37 <nimbu> err smfr: AryehGregor has more in the email
17:31:52 <nimbu> smfr:  decide if transform-o matches bg-o. fundamental decision to make.
17:32:03 <nimbu> smfr: i think dbaron you suggested that originally.
17:32:12 <nimbu> dbaron: i wasn't considering 3d case.
17:32:23 <nimbu> dbaron: how useful is the z component of transform-o to begin with
17:32:30 <nimbu> smfr: it is useful in some cases, we have used it in demos and stuff.
17:32:35 <tantek> I'd like to request that the CSS Transforms FPWD also link to the Editor's draft in addition to the issues list.
17:32:56 <fantasai> tantek, agreed. Should update to the module template overall
17:33:11 <nimbu> smfr: aligning with bg-position adds an additional burden.
17:33:15 <Ms2ger> tantek, fantasai, hasn't that been resolved ages ago?
17:33:17 <tantek> fantasai - updating to the module template overall is potentially a lot more work
17:33:25 <tantek> (having just done that myself for CSS3-UI)
17:33:25 <nimbu> smfr: AryehGregor pointed out some of bg-pos can be done with calc.
17:33:35 <fantasai> tantek, grabbing just the header though shouldn't be
17:33:42 <nimbu> smfr: or change bg-pos syntax to align with it.
17:33:52 <glenn_> glenn_ has joined #css
17:33:53 <tantek> I would be ok with updating just the header portion (the stuff that comes before "Abstract") to the module template for FPWD, and the rest after
17:34:02 <Zakim> -danielweck
17:34:12 <tantek> fantasai - sounds like we are agreed
17:34:21 <Zakim> +??P18
17:34:32 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P18 is me
17:34:32 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
17:34:40 <nimbu> smfr: you think with z as separate property, transform would be a shorthand.
17:34:47 <nimbu> smfr: maybe we should just leave this to the mailing list.
17:34:55 <tantek> PROPOSAL: Require CSS3 Transforms FPWD header (portion before "Abstract") update to CSS module template.
17:34:56 <nimbu> plinss: anyone has any opinions?
17:35:04 <Zakim> +??P21
17:35:08 <tantek> *before publication.
17:35:11 <nimbu> fantasai: only concern is if we are not matching bg-pos it would be confusing to authors
17:35:18 <glenn_> zakim, ??P21 is me
17:35:18 <Zakim> +glenn_; got it
17:35:20 <nimbu> sylvaing: the author is already using it, why is it confusing
17:35:27 <nimbu> sylvaing: authors are already using transforms
17:35:46 <nimbu> smfr: figure out if we should track it or not
17:35:52 <nimbu> dbaron: tracking is basically impossible
17:35:54 <nimbu> sylvaing: yes
17:36:12 <nimbu> smfr: it is unfortunate we have 2 different ways of describing similar behavior in 2 different properties
17:36:19 <nimbu> plinss: is it too late to change bg-pos behavior
17:36:39 <nimbu> dbaron: i have not been too crazy about new bg-pos syntax but we had an intern spend a significant time implementing it.
17:36:54 <nimbu> fantasai: it has not changed since 2008. confused by people saying it was updated.
17:37:07 <nimbu> smfr: original transform spec was done before that change so we used the old syntax, I am guessing.
17:37:24 <nimbu> sylvaing: the goal is to unprefix as much interop we have, i am not in favour of changing syntax at this point
17:37:45 <nimbu> sylvaing: if the goal is consistency, last time we did this was for gradients and I dont have a good memory of that
17:37:49 <Ms2ger> Hear, hear
17:38:04 <nimbu> smfr: the syntax in the transform spec is compatible with bg-pos syntax
17:38:07 <oyvind> (the background-position thing has been in CR for years, and in draft before transforms afaik)
17:38:16 <nimbu> dbaron: z part is a subset of the syntax.
17:38:33 <nimbu> smfr: were we to move to bg-pos syntax would the content break.
17:38:41 <dbaron> s/z part is/excluding the z part it's/
17:38:56 <nimbu> smfr: i would be willing to forgo compat with transform-o that has z position specified
17:39:07 <drublic> drublic has joined #css
17:39:22 <nimbu> fantasai: i dont have any feedback on it as I havent looked at this issue
17:39:28 <nimbu> smfr: i think we should continue this on mailing list
17:39:49 <fantasai> ACTION fantasai review transform-origin 
17:39:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-449 - Review transform-origin  [on Elika Etemad - due 2012-02-29].
17:39:50 <nimbu> smfr: one of the other issues for 3d transforms is requirement for rendering intersecting elements
17:39:52 <smfr> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/
17:40:09 <nimbu> smfr: example 7.
17:40:25 <nimbu> smfr: question is whether we should make intersection behaviour normative in the spec or not.
17:40:36 <nimbu> smfr: we didnt make it normative is that implementing this is difficult.
17:40:50 <nimbu> dbaron: authors are hitting the lack of interop here and we need to pick an answer
17:40:52 <nimbu> smfr: yes definitely
17:41:02 <nimbu> plinss: i am presuming we have no interop currently
17:41:09 <TabAtkins_> We are definitely opposed to leaving it non-normative.
17:41:15 <nimbu> smfr: I dont know what chrome and firefox's behaviour is.
17:41:26 <nimbu> dbaron: chrome & firefox do it one way and safari another.
17:41:26 <TabAtkins_> Yes, no real interop.  Chrome has different behavior even between HW-accelerated and non.
17:41:32 <nimbu> dbaron: roc would know.
17:41:40 <dbaron> s/dbaron:/dbaron: I think what people said is that
17:41:46 <nimbu> smfr: i would like to hear input from other implementers, whether its something they would consider implementing.
17:42:50 <nimbu> smfr: you have planes in 3d space, if you transform planes they intersect
17:43:03 <nimbu> smfr: to get correct rendering you need to subdivide planes along the lines of intersection
17:43:27 <nimbu> smfr: if you look at the spec, it points to a wikipedia page and tells you how to resolve rendering ambiguities
17:43:49 <nimbu> smfr: alternative is you dont render intersecting space. and that wont show the intersection correctly
17:44:02 <nimbu> ACTION dbaron ask roc on how/whether to make intersecting elements normative
17:44:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-450 - Ask roc on how/whether to make intersecting elements normative [on David Baron - due 2012-02-29].
17:44:16 <TabAtkins_> Chrome is willing to work on good intersecting behavior, both for rendering and picking.  We *definitely* want normative requirements here.
17:44:20 <nimbu> ACTION florianr ask opera how/whether to make intersecting elements normative
17:44:20 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - florianr
17:44:37 <Ms2ger> ACTION florian ask opera how/whether to make intersecting elements normative
17:44:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-451 - Ask opera how/whether to make intersecting elements normative [on Florian Rivoal - due 2012-02-29].
17:44:45 <nimbu> smfr: webkit has a mode where you can turn off hw accell and thats not a config that a user should run into.
17:44:55 <nimbu> plinss: i thought i heard chrome and safari have different behaviours here?
17:45:05 <TabAtkins_> We do, yes.
17:45:15 <nimbu> smfr: thats possible, chrome uses openGL backend for rendering, safari uses ?? framework for the rendering
17:45:28 <dbaron> s/?? framework/CoreAnimation framework/
17:45:28 <nimbu> plinss: safari is basically doing the intersection.
17:45:29 <TabAtkins_> (I don't know details, but I was talking with our implementors a few days ago.)
17:45:45 <nimbu> plinss: if we define this normatively in the spec, would anyone else be able to implement it?
17:46:07 <nimbu> florianr: we might run into cases where it might be different as we do ports for wide variety of platforms
17:46:20 <nimbu> plinss: we specify this behaviour but we say 'should' for now.
17:46:27 <nimbu> florianr: the resulting apperance is very different
17:46:40 <TabAtkins_> We are willing to implement.
17:46:49 <nimbu> ::: that is my concern, if its not consistent it kinda falls apart.
17:46:55 <nimbu> s/::/??
17:46:59 <stearns> s/::/vincent/
17:47:01 <nimbu> plinss: i am not sure if its worth holding the spec for.
17:47:22 <nimbu> florianr: if it turns out to be too hard, normatively state that we should do intersections. lets go check with implementers
17:47:35 <nimbu> dbaron: this is the biggest interop complaint i have heard about transforms.
17:47:54 <nimbu> plinss: we will come back to next week to revisit
17:47:56 <florianr> s/should do/should not do/
17:48:26 <nimbu> plinss: any other issues?
17:48:36 <nimbu> smfr: thats all the transform issues I want to talk about today.
17:48:51 <nimbu> plinss: when we think we can take transforms to last call
17:49:11 <nimbu> florianr: we have to be reasonably sure we have identified them
17:49:20 <nimbu> plinss: last call is to get everybody's issues in
17:49:34 <nimbu> tantek: there is simply a requirement, if we know of any issues, we document and link to them.
17:49:45 <nimbu> tantek: linking issues in the header is sufficient for that
17:50:02 <nimbu> fantasai: are there any significant issues - major ones - that we havent resolved for the last call?
17:50:20 <nimbu> tantek: specific item on that is dependencies. speaking with ?? they clarified that.
17:50:29 <fantasai> s/??/AB/
17:50:48 <nimbu> tantek: that requirement is there so groups rely on those dependencies are notified during the LC
17:50:56 <nimbu> tantek: there could always be new ones someone finds tomorrow
17:51:05 <nimbu> sylvaing: ones that have been identified are major tho.
17:51:53 <nimbu> fantasai: one of the purposes of LC is to review whats going to CR. going from LC to CR, without that review breaks that cycle.
17:52:08 <nimbu> fantasai: we must be pretty sure we dont make major changes before we go to LC.
17:52:18 <nimbu> tantek: html wg publishes multiple last calls
17:52:33 <nimbu> stearns: you will end up going to last call again
17:52:49 <nimbu> stearns: the belief that you wont have major issues show up in LC is not reliable either
17:52:51 <stearns> s/stearns/stevez/
17:52:54 <nimbu> oops
17:53:27 <fantasai> can we stop talking about process, PLEASE?
17:53:43 <stearns> +1 fantasai
17:53:52 <nimbu> tantek: i know your intent to speed up the process
17:53:53 <dbaron> fantasai, btw, didn't we agree to add a test suite link to the template too?
17:53:53 <nimbu> err
17:54:01 <dbaron> fantasai, is it ok if I add that to css-module?
17:54:07 <sylvaing> and we asked to not talk about this today
17:54:08 <nimbu> florianr: tantek i know your intent is to speed up process, but seems like we keep talking more about process
17:54:09 <fantasai> dbaron, don't recall, but sure, go ahead
17:54:28 <nimbu> tantek: if you want to take clarifications to email i am fine with that.
17:54:36 <nimbu> plinss: i am not sure we are ready to take it to LC today.
17:54:53 <nimbu> plinss: i dont like to take this to LC 10 times, i would like to do 1 LC as possible. I dont want to wait to post all of our issues to do that.
17:55:11 <nimbu> plinss: as long as we have all of the issues identified, i am fine with that.
17:55:31 <Zakim> - +1.408.536.aacc
17:55:35 <nimbu> sylvaing: it is weird to have people review something without having a resolution on something significant that lacks interop
17:56:00 <nimbu> plinss: only intend to take it to LC soon.
17:56:18 <nimbu> plinss:  we will come backt o transforms next week, hopefully editors will have feedback on issues raised this week
17:56:34 <nimbu> sylvaing: any word on what happens to image values when people who asked for extensions dont provide feedback
17:56:44 <nimbu> fantasai: we compile list of comments without their comments.
17:57:05 <nimbu> Bert: i have not heard anything, if its too late, they have to go to director to ask. but they have had their chance i think
17:57:10 <nimbu> plinss: shall we push on then?
17:57:13 <nimbu> Bert: i think so.
17:57:25 <nimbu> plinss: ready to take Image Values to CR?
17:57:34 <nimbu> fantasai: we need to finish disposition of comments and then review it
17:57:40 <nimbu> plinss: when do you think you can have that ready?
17:57:42 <nimbu> fantasai: next week
17:57:43 <TabAtkins_> I'm doing the last cleanup for DoC.
17:57:54 <TabAtkins_> Yeah, next week I'll be fully finished.
17:57:59 <jet> jet has joined #CSS
17:58:01 <nimbu> plinss: do we need to formally ping ?? that we are moving ahead without them?
17:58:06 <nimbu> Bert: i think a message would be polite
17:58:13 <TabAtkins_> s/??/WAIPF/
17:58:15 <nimbu> florianr: the message should include the fact that we are not waiting.
17:58:29 <nimbu> Bert: something has to be really quick, there is no more deadline.
17:58:46 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1083.html
17:58:52 <nimbu> ACTION Bert tell WAIPF that they need to give feedback asap for image values
17:58:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-452 - Tell WAIPF that they need to give feedback asap for image values [on Bert Bos - due 2012-02-29].
17:59:34 <Zakim> -bradk
17:59:44 <nimbu> fantasai: anything that is hard to define or not defined yet, we say don't animate.
17:59:53 <bradk> had to go. Bye.
17:59:58 <nimbu> sylvaing: we are not defining it until before image values.
18:00:11 <nimbu> dbaron: the prose was never removed from transitions, i am proposing we remove it. 
18:00:17 <nimbu> florianr: we allow ourselves to do it later.
18:00:17 <tantek> nimbu - plinss specifically said on the call that we the wg can take drafts to LC with open issues. could we please have that minuted?
18:00:21 <nimbu> sylvaing: yes.
18:00:40 <nimbu> tantek: yes, how do I do that :/
18:01:25 <nimbu> plinss: ask everyone to review david's list and get to it next week.
18:01:31 <Zakim> -stearns
18:01:33 <Zakim> -[Apple]
18:01:34 <nimbu> plinss: we can take drafts to LC with open issues
18:01:35 <Zakim> -danielweck
18:01:35 <Zakim> -sylvaing
18:01:36 <Zakim> - +1.206.427.aaee
18:01:36 <tantek> nimbu - you can note it with a time index, e.g. he said it around 17:48Z
18:01:36 <Zakim> -kimberly
18:01:38 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
18:01:39 <Zakim> -howcome
18:01:40 <nimbu> oh
18:01:42 <Zakim> -cabanier
18:01:43 <Zakim> -SteveZ
18:01:45 <Zakim> -Bert
18:01:47 <Zakim> -glenn_
18:01:49 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
18:01:49 <nimbu> i think fantasai will clean it up ^_^
18:01:51 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
18:01:53 <Zakim> -smfr
18:01:57 <Zakim> -plinss
18:01:59 <fantasai> nimbu: That's right! 
18:01:59 <Zakim> -kojiishi
18:02:05 <Zakim> -antonp
18:02:10 <Zakim> -??P9
18:02:11 <Zakim> -dstorey
18:02:14 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:02:15 <Zakim> -nimbu
18:02:17 <tantek> nimbu - she can clean it up yes, but as the minuter, you need to minute it so she can clean it up.
18:02:19 <fantasai> nimbu: Anyone can correct the minutes, it doesn't have to be you. If they ask you to minute something, and they said it in IRC, tell them it's minuted already :)
18:02:22 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
18:02:29 <fantasai> by the simple fact that it's in the IRC
18:02:29 <nimbu> haha okay
18:02:30 <nimbu> :)
18:02:35 <Zakim> -tantek
18:02:46 <fantasai> tantek^
18:03:04 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
18:03:05 <tantek> fantasai - whatever you prefer, as the minutes cleaner. 
18:03:27 <fantasai> tantek: My preference is that you don't disturb the minute-taker when making corrections.
18:03:48 <fantasai> tantek: Because then stuff that should've been minuted gets lost while they process your request.
18:03:55 <tantek> presumably that's up to the minute-taker, so I'll make a note of that when you're taking minutes.
18:04:00 <fantasai> tantek: If you want to correct the minutes, you can do that yourself.
18:04:27 <dbaron> ok, looks like we didn't actually resolve to add a test suite link
18:04:29 <dbaron> but I think we should
18:04:39 <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0713.html was the discussion I remembered
18:04:59 <TabAtkins_> tantek: Interrupting *any* minute-taker for non-essential things is bad form.
18:05:23 <fantasai> tantek: Sure, go ahead and disturb the minute-taker who is not me. Be aware however that your disturbance is *entirely useless* because if you say something in IRC without using /me it will be logged as well as if it were restated by the minute-taker
18:05:26 <TabAtkins_> And asking them to type something you've just typed is non-essential. ^_^
18:05:29 <tantek> dbaron - sounds like a reasonable thing to post to the list proposing the change to the module template
18:05:52 <fantasai> tantek: So you're just wasting their attention.
18:06:03 <tantek> fantasai - as a non-minute taker it's ambiguous
18:06:09 <tantek> when you say "person:"
18:06:14 <tantek> is it direct at person
18:06:17 <tantek> or is it quoting person
18:06:17 <fantasai> tantek: But if you want to waste their attention, go ahead.
18:06:39 <tantek> fantasai - please stop with the strawmen
18:07:20 <fantasai> tantek: if you're splicing something halfway up the backlog, you'll have to explain where you want it in any case
18:07:21 <hober> i think it's pretty well established that you /me if you don't want to be minuted, and you don't /me if you do want to be minuted. the minute taker doesn't need to do anything.
18:08:03 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, glenn, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
18:08:04 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:08:04 <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, +1.650.275.aaaa, bradk, +1.206.324.aabb, glenn, nimbu, florianr, hober, antonp, sylvaing, stearns, arronei, dbaron, smfr, +1.408.536.aacc, [Microsoft], Bert,
18:08:04 <Zakim> ... kimberly, [IPcaller], tantek, danielweck, +1.206.427.aaee, SteveZ, howcome, cabanier, kojiishi, Rossen, dstorey, glenn_
18:08:05 <hober> (and like fantasai said, anyone can correct the minutes as we go)
18:08:10 <tantek> hober, what's the distinction for directing a message toward someone vs. quoting them? both seem to use the "person:" prefix syntax?
18:08:13 <fantasai> tantek: your request to nimbu was unambiguous. You asked that it be minuted that plinss said something.
18:08:23 <fantasai> tantek: you didn't need to ask nimu to retype what you typed
18:08:31 <tantek> ok
18:08:33 <hober> hober: tantek, foo
18:08:55 <tantek> , (directed to) vs : (quoting) ok
18:09:19 <fantasai> tantek: this is one of the many reasons why I manually format the minutes :)
18:09:34 <tantek> fantasai - understood
18:09:53 <tantek> could you consider a feature request of IDs for statements, similar to the IRC logs?
18:10:09 <tantek> so we can link to specific statements in the formatted minutes
18:10:58 <tantek> I've found it hard to cite the minutes for reference on some issues because the minutes can be quite large and it's not reasonable to expect someone to dig through all of them for the one or two lines that substantiate a point that is being made.
18:11:00 <fantasai> tantek: That would be awesome. How about you write a script that converts the minutes to HTML? Because I can't exactly put IDs in plaintext emails. :)
18:13:10 <fantasai> Ms2ger: I can tag them onto the minutes if you think they're that useful. :) But I think not so much...
18:13:48 <fantasai> Ooh, great idea: make the mail archives put anchors for each line in an email
18:13:56 <fantasai> Oh wait, nobody maintains the archive system.
18:17:31 <tantek> as suboptimal as our archive software is, existing forums are much much worse
18:17:40 <hober> Ms2ger: I've fallen behind on reading that thread. Early on it wasn't crazy, and I intend to follow up with some concerns of my own. I'm sad to hear it's gone off the rails
18:17:50 <tantek> hober, yeah it's been useless for a while
18:18:18 <hober> sadface
18:18:22 <tantek> basically, we never should have introduced physical units to CSS in the first place, because authors would just end up depending on them as proxies for pixels.
18:18:38 <tantek> but that would make a good band name: Proxies for Pixels
18:19:24 <hober> we do need to be able to distinguish between displays of different physical size but the same pixel dimensions and the same device pixel ratio
18:19:32 <Ms2ger> But buttons that need to be as big as my thumb!
18:19:48 <hober> the resolution media query lets you do that so long as its arguments (dpi,dpcm) are physical
18:20:06 <fantasai> s/achors/anchors/
18:20:14 <tantek> Ms2ger - so if you can come up with a mechanism where developers won't just assume a fixed # of pixels for that, propose it, but so far, no-one has.
18:20:22 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
18:20:33 <dbaron_> dbaron_ has joined #css
18:20:57 <tantek> I'm surprised no one has brought up the "viewing angle" justification of the physical units in CSS
18:21:07 <tantek> or maybe I just missed that message in the thread
18:23:24 <fantasai> tantek: I think someon edid
18:23:26 <kennyluck> kennyluck has joined #css
18:24:12 <kennyluck> kennyluck has joined #css
18:24:46 <kennyluck> kennyluck has joined #css
18:26:11 <tantek> hober - I was quite amused at David Singer's frustration in the thread with people simply repeating themselves. So far I've resisted posting the, well that's because it's email that's how email works answer. Or rather, if you want to stop repeating things, post it on the web somewhere discoverable (i.e. a wiki, not email archives) and just repeat a URL, it's faster.
18:26:45 <hober> good times
18:27:40 <drublic> drublic has joined #css
18:27:45 <Ms2ger> The latter
18:30:36 <tantek> more than proposed, already stubbed: http://wiki.csswg.org/faq
18:30:53 <tantek> fantasai - it's a wiki, feel free to add to the FAQ on that subject :)
18:31:26 <fantasai> tantek: I think what's on there isn't FAQ, but Guidelines for Posting, actually
18:31:46 <fantasai> tantek: but yes, maybe put a nice header on there and reply to dsinger with the URL? :)
18:32:26 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
18:32:30 <smfr> fantasai: still here?
18:32:35 <fantasai> yes, for a few secs
18:32:38 <fantasai> smfr: what's up?
18:32:58 <smfr> i see ChrisL had an action to publish the FPWD for transforms, but I was going to mail Bert to do it anyway
18:33:00 <smfr> is that OK/
18:33:22 <fantasai> smfr: mail both of them? ChrisL asked to be actioned on it, so that's what I did
18:33:37 <fantasai> smfr: did you update the header to match css3-animations?
18:33:38 <smfr> also, do I have to make any changes to prepare for WD, or does someone else do things like fix the stylesheet link?
18:33:53 <fantasai> smfr: Bert will take care of all of that. Just make sure it validates, no broken links etc.
18:34:03 <fantasai> http://validator.w3.org/
18:34:06 <smfr> ok, 'make' says it's ok
18:34:12 <fantasai> http://validator.w3.org/checklink
18:34:21 <smfr> right
18:34:29 <smfr> 13 errors!
18:34:34 <fantasai> heh
18:34:42 <Ms2ger> pubrules
18:34:56 <smfr> i'll fix those then mail
18:35:13 <fantasai> Ms2ger: I find the main thing I need to fix wrt pubrules is broken links, and imho, those *should* be fixed.
18:36:04 <Ms2ger> Mm, same for Anolis
18:36:08 <hober> smfr: didn't you mention that the makefile was stripping out your link to the editor's draft? fantasai, any idea why it might do that?
18:36:16 <smfr> i fixed it
18:36:21 <hober> oh cool
18:36:27 <smfr> <dd><a href="http://dev.w3.org/csswg/[SHORTNAME]/">http://dev.w3.org/csswg/[SHORTNAME]/</a>
18:37:05 <fantasai> you can view Overview.src.html on the module template, all of that should work fine...
18:37:40 <fantasai> Right. Kitchen. Metro. Laters!~
18:39:30 <smfr> i can't believe we strip quotes around attribute values
18:40:16 <tantek> smfr, what do you have against saving a few bytes here and there? ;)
18:40:25 <smfr> it messes with my pretty printer
18:41:00 <tantek> I'd say patches welcome but I don't know where the script lives in source control.
18:42:10 <Ms2ger> It doesn't
18:42:13 <Ms2ger> AFAIK
18:42:51 <smfr> <h2 class="no-num no-toc" id="abstract">Abstract</h2> 
18:43:00 <smfr> gets turned into 
18:43:01 <smfr> <h2 class="no-num no-toc" id=abstract>Abstract</h2>
18:43:19 <Ms2ger> Why not? It's HTML
18:43:43 <karl> karl has joined #CSS
18:46:27 <TabAtkins_> smfr: More importantly, why are you looking at Overview.html at all?
18:47:46 <TabAtkins_> (I hear you, though.  Sublime Text's syntax coloring has made me more likely to quote attributes, at least when I'm writing code in it.  *Especially* ids, because the coloring is actually *broken* for them.  I'm not really sure how he managed to do that.
18:47:46 <TabAtkins_> )
18:47:48 <smfr> because it's what ends up getting publiushed
18:49:29 <oyvind> oyvind has left #css
19:03:47 <arno> arno has joined #css
19:24:48 <smfr> smfr has left #css
19:34:20 <arronei_> arronei_ has joined #css
19:38:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #css
19:59:59 <arno> arno has joined #css
20:05:45 <glenn> glenn has joined #css
20:32:49 <jet> jet has joined #CSS
20:46:02 <nimbu> nimbu has joined #css
20:49:57 <kennyluck> kennyluck has joined #css
20:56:10 <leaverou> leaverou has joined #css
21:04:49 <arno> arno has joined #css
21:54:09 <arno> arno has joined #css
22:29:18 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
22:32:32 <smfr_> smfr_ has joined #css
22:33:05 <arno> arno has joined #css
22:45:14 <arno> arno has joined #css
23:42:00 <TabAtkins> d'oh, no wonder smfr_ never responded to my last comment - it didn't make it out of web irc because my connection was being flaky. :/
23:42:27 <TabAtkins> smfr_: Why are you loading up the output format in your text editor? You shouldn't have to edit anything in it, and you can visually inspect the result.
23:50:30 <smfr_> TabAtkins: because i was matching line numbers from the validator
23:50:31 <arno> arno has joined #css
23:50:39 <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
23:58:31 <nimbu> nimbu has joined #css