15:58:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webtv
15:58:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/16-webtv-irc
15:58:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:58:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
15:58:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:58:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Web and TV Interest Group Teleconference
15:58:07 <trackbot> Date: 16 February 2012
15:58:11 <davidmays> davidmays has joined #webtv
15:58:15 <Clarke> zakim, who is here
15:58:15 <Zakim> Clarke, you need to end that query with '?'
15:58:18 <glenn> zakim, this will be webtv
15:58:18 <Zakim> ok, glenn, I see UW_WebTVIG()11:00AM already started
15:58:25 <Clarke> zakim, who is here?
15:58:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P27, glenn
15:58:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see davidmays, RRSAgent, Zakim, Clarke, joesteele, kaz, glenn, timeless, masao, trackbot
15:58:34 <Clarke> zakim, ??P27 is me
15:58:34 <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
15:58:42 <Zakim> +Dave_Mays
15:59:27 <Juhani> Juhani has joined #webtv
15:59:40 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
15:59:40 <Zakim> ok, kaz; the call is being made
15:59:42 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki.a
15:59:55 <davidmays> scribe: Dave_Mays
15:59:56 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
15:59:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Clarke, glenn, Dave_Mays, Kazuyuki.a
15:59:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see Juhani, davidmays, RRSAgent, Zakim, Clarke, joesteele, kaz, glenn, timeless, masao, trackbot
16:00:21 <kaz> zakim, drop me
16:00:21 <Zakim> Kazuyuki.a is being disconnected
16:00:24 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki.a
16:00:29 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
16:00:32 <Zakim> +MarkW
16:00:34 <Zakim> +??P53
16:00:36 <Zakim> ok, kaz; the call is being made
16:00:38 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki.a
16:00:41 <davidmays> scribe: davidmays
16:01:14 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
16:01:14 <Zakim> ok, kaz; the call is being made
16:01:15 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki.b
16:01:20 <Zakim> + +1.303.503.aaaa
16:01:33 <duncanr> duncanr has joined #webtv
16:01:36 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
16:01:41 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki.b
16:01:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Clarke, glenn, Dave_Mays, Kazuyuki.a, MarkW, ??P53, +1.303.503.aaaa
16:01:56 <narm_gadiraju> narm_gadiraju has joined #webtv
16:02:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see duncanr, Juhani, davidmays, RRSAgent, Zakim, Clarke, joesteele, kaz, glenn, timeless, masao, trackbot
16:02:34 <johnsim> johnsim has joined #webtv
16:03:17 <kaz> zakim, drop Kazuyuki.a
16:03:26 <davidmays> topic: Agenda
16:03:27 <Clarke> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/Agenda_Telco_16th_February_2012
16:03:28 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:03:31 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
16:03:51 <davidmays> Clarke: welcome Joe Steele from Adobe
16:03:59 <davidmays> … Joe is a content protection expert
16:04:04 <Zakim> +Duncan
16:04:20 <Zakim> Kazuyuki.a is being disconnected
16:04:24 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki.a
16:04:24 <davidmays> … describing agenda
16:04:36 <joesteele> thanks! I am still trying to dial in -- bad phone setup on my side
16:04:38 <Zakim> ok, kaz; the call is being made
16:04:40 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki.a
16:04:41 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-skype
16:04:50 <Zakim> +Narm_Gadiraju
16:04:57 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
16:04:59 <mav> mav has joined #webtv
16:05:01 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki.a
16:05:03 <davidmays> … asking Mark Watson about updated content protection proposal
16:05:18 <davidmays> Mark Watson: will be updating sometime next week, working offline with other companies
16:05:28 <Zakim> ok, kaz; the call is being made
16:05:31 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki
16:05:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Clarke, glenn, Dave_Mays, MarkW, ??P53, +1.303.503.aaaa, [Microsoft], Duncan, Narm_Gadiraju, Kazuyuki
16:05:55 <davidmays> Clarke: next week's main topic will be content protection
16:06:01 <Zakim> +Philipp
16:06:04 <davidmays> topic: open bugs
16:06:22 <davidmays> http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF#Bugs
16:06:49 <Zakim> +Mark_Vickers
16:06:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see mav, johnsim, narm_gadiraju, duncanr, Juhani, davidmays, RRSAgent, Zakim, Clarke, joesteele, kaz, glenn, timeless, masao, trackbot
16:07:14 <davidmays> Bob Lund: I was asked by Ian to provide pointer to a spec for LC13357
16:07:39 <davidmays> … I posted a spec for AC3 audio that matches this
16:07:43 <davidmays> … no response from Ian yet
16:07:44 <ph> ph has joined #webtv
16:08:36 <Zakim> -Narm_Gadiraju
16:08:47 <Zakim> -Mark_Vickers
16:08:48 <davidmays> … LC13359 - long discussion thread, I supplied some more detailed information. Ian thinks this is complicated. The ball is in Ian's court
16:09:13 <davidmays> Clarke: need to add LC13358. Maybe it's already resolved?
16:09:25 <davidmays> … asking for other comments on the rest of the bugs
16:09:42 <glenn> zakim, 303.503.aaaa is Bob_Lund
16:09:49 <davidmays> Topic: Model 3 Architecture
16:10:19 <Zakim> sorry, glenn, I do not recognize a party named '303.503.aaaa'
16:10:20 <davidmays> Clarke: mentions that Kilroy was going to summarize comments from last week's call, will follow up with Kilroy.
16:10:31 <davidmays> … any other comments on Chromium WIP proposal?
16:10:32 <Zakim> +Narm_Gadiraju
16:10:49 <glenn> zakim, +1.303.503.aaaa is Bob_Lund
16:10:49 <Zakim> +Bob_Lund; got it
16:10:56 <Zakim> +Mark_Vickers
16:11:04 <davidmays> Mark Watson: if people have comments on chrome media extension, they should contact the author
16:11:07 <Zakim> -Narm_Gadiraju
16:11:30 <kaz> zakim, Microsoft is John_Simmons
16:11:30 <Zakim> +John_Simmons; got it
16:11:53 <davidmays> Clarke: let's look at Adaptive Bitrate control section and get feedback
16:12:07 <Zakim> +Narm_Gadiraju
16:12:40 <davidmays> … Video tag makes it easy to discern what's in the HTML, instead of using something like <OBJECT>
16:12:47 <davidmays> … proposal from Chromium meets this criteria
16:13:01 <davidmays> Bob Lund: couple of comments
16:13:03 <Zakim> -Narm_Gadiraju
16:13:15 <davidmays> … 1 issue is whether the tag is video/object
16:13:17 <Zakim> +Jason
16:13:27 <davidmays> … 2 whether the solution needs to support <video>
16:14:04 <davidmays> … strongly supporting the use of <video> element, rather than <object> due to all the HTML5 work that has already been done
16:14:34 <Zakim> + +1.503.705.aabb
16:14:41 <davidmays> Clarke: common time reference
16:14:59 <davidmays> … kilroy brought up overlapping tracks need to be handled
16:15:07 <jasonlewis> jasonlewis has joined #webtv
16:15:40 <davidmays> … any disagreement on the common time reference requirement?
16:16:27 <davidmays> Glenn: in trick modes (play speed !=1) is there a good model for time for this in HTML or is it left to the underlying protocol and layers
16:16:53 <Zakim> + +1.925.984.aacc
16:17:06 <davidmays> Bob Lund: there is a definition for playspeed in HTML5. pretty clear cut what UA behavior should be for different playback rates
16:17:13 <joesteele> Zakim, aacc is joesteele
16:17:13 <Zakim> +joesteele; got it
16:17:25 <davidmays> … similarly for seeking within stream - also well defined using seekable range objects or attributes
16:17:44 <davidmays> Clarke: what is the range relative to?
16:18:20 <glenn> +q glenn
16:18:22 <Juhani> I am on the call
16:18:28 <davidmays> Bob Lund: it's sourced off the video, complicated with multiple videos. base ref defined from one of the videos in HTML5 spec
16:18:34 <davidmays> zakim, who is speaking?
16:18:38 <kaz> zakim, ??P53 is Juhani
16:18:38 <Zakim> +Juhani; got it
16:18:45 <Zakim> davidmays, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bob_Lund (27%)
16:18:55 <giuseppe> giuseppe has joined #webtv
16:19:25 <davidmays> Mark Watson: it would depend on protocol using to retrieve the video - no server involvement on HTTP streaming, but with RTSP there is server involvement
16:19:46 <davidmays> Clarke: HTML5 spec does not say if you change play speed, how to make use of underlying protocols
16:19:50 <kaz> Present: Clarke, glenn, Dave_Mays, MarkW, Juhani, Bob_Lund, John_Simmons, Duncan, Kazuyuki, Philipp, Mark_Vickers, Jason, Narm_Gadiraju, Joe_Steele
16:20:02 <davidmays> … other specs may cover it, but not HTML5
16:20:08 <davidmays> Zakim, who is speaking
16:20:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is speaking', davidmays
16:20:16 <davidmays> Zakim, who is speaking?
16:20:26 <Zakim> davidmays, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glenn (34%), MarkW (40%)
16:20:50 <davidmays> Glenn: the spec *could* say that resolution of play-time is governed by protocol in use by the referenced URI
16:21:08 <davidmays> Mark Watson: it's mainly up to client capability to support FF/RW
16:21:17 <davidmays> … depends how it interprets the media data from the server
16:21:51 <davidmays> glenn: i have concerns about a lack of any language in this area in the spec
16:22:34 <davidmays> … e.g. if the server is delivering video over HTTP and it is performing trick-play on the server, does the client know that?
16:23:00 <davidmays> MW: that's a media protocol/format issue, not an HTML5 issue
16:23:03 <davidmays> Clarke: agree
16:23:29 <davidmays> Bob Lund: HTML5 API is agnostic to that. just use the specified attributes to specify play speed
16:23:40 <davidmays> … haven't seen a deficiency in that area
16:24:04 <davidmays> Clarke: to double play speed in HTTP, specify in HTML that you want a play speed of 2. presumably the UA would issue the correct requests
16:24:13 <davidmays> … after that the HTML doesn't need to know
16:24:31 <davidmays> Glenn: b/c HTML5 defines a playspeed attribute that is mutable, JS can change that value
16:24:43 <davidmays> … any server-initiated change handler is unspecified
16:24:55 <davidmays> … should HTML5 provide a mapping that gives guidance to implementors
16:25:34 <davidmays> Bob Lund: in DLNA we saw that it was necessary to provide that
16:25:49 <davidmays> … in HTTP adaptive, the goal has been to make use of standard HTTP without any further mapping
16:25:57 <davidmays> … does not seem to be a part of the HTML5 spec
16:26:15 <davidmays> glenn: not suggesting that it should be, but HTML5 leaves it blank as to how mutations of play speed should be mapped
16:26:28 <davidmays> Clarke: try to come up with a use case where there is ambiguity in HTML
16:26:39 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:26:55 <giuseppe> zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
16:26:55 <Zakim> sorry, giuseppe, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:26:59 <davidmays> MW: HTML5 doesn't specify protocols, so this isn't the right place for that kind of thing
16:27:01 <giuseppe> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:27:02 <Zakim> +giuseppe; got it
16:27:03 <kaz> zakim, IPcaller is Giuseppe
16:27:03 <Zakim> sorry, kaz, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
16:27:08 <davidmays> … should be included in the protocol specification instead
16:27:20 <kaz> Present+ Giuseppe
16:27:36 <davidmays> Clarke: mixing of tracks with different time references - does HTML5 specify anything like a "master" track?
16:27:49 <davidmays> Bob Lund: don't know enough details about time management to answer that
16:28:09 <davidmays> Clarke: let's see if we can resolve time reference issues
16:28:49 <davidmays> Bob: kilroy should bring up some use cases to illustrate this problem
16:29:22 <davidmays> MW: multi-track support in HTML, each element has a timeline from start to zero, and all those need to be aligned
16:29:41 <davidmays> … if multiple inbound tracks from a media format, we depend on the format to provide alignment
16:30:21 <davidmays> … if switching between bitrates, need to make sure that segments are aligned. 
16:30:42 <davidmays> … just need to be clear about where the timelines need to be aligned.
16:31:00 <davidmays> Clarke: i will open an issue on this and we can put up some use cases
16:31:11 <Zakim> -MarkW
16:31:31 <davidmays> … anything more about search and trick-play to talk about?
16:32:15 <davidmays> … want to determine ASAP if a UA can handle a type of content
16:32:35 <davidmays> … let's come to a consensus on this
16:32:39 <davidmays> … does this req't need restatement
16:32:51 <davidmays> http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF#Adaptive_Bit_Rate
16:32:54 <Zakim> -joesteele
16:33:45 <davidmays> … no different wording proposed
16:34:02 <davidmays> … how do we best resolve this? 
16:34:22 <davidmays> Dave Mays: reading the requirement from the wiki - "The ability of the user agent to play a piece of content must be determined quickly and with reasonable accuracy (e.g. using CanPlayType(codec, level, profile) or other means)"
16:34:28 <davidmays> Zakim, who is speaking?
16:34:40 <Zakim> davidmays, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:34:55 <davidmays> Clarke: the less we have to process before getting an answer, the better
16:35:15 <davidmays> … if you can get it from mime type or canPlayType() that's better than going into the UA and getting an error
16:35:22 <Zakim> - +1.503.705.aabb
16:35:43 <davidmays> Bob: may want to restate it a little bit
16:36:03 <davidmays> … "what in the various adaptive formats needs to be reflected in the mime type to support the existing HTML5 spec behaviors"
16:36:41 <davidmays> … need to talk about specifics in the protocols/formats that would identify this
16:37:11 <jasonlewis> q+
16:37:24 <davidmays> … we need to get down to specifics
16:37:32 <davidmays> *problems with Bob's audio*
16:38:38 <davidmays> Jason Lewis: we have apps where we need to find out whether we *can* use the Video tag on a particular device
16:38:48 <davidmays> … want to get a list of supported playback types from the UA
16:38:58 <davidmays> … maybe inject flash instead, or no video container at all
16:39:15 <davidmays> Bob: in HTML5 today there is fallback to object element
16:39:20 <davidmays> … need more than that?
16:39:40 <davidmays> Jason: wrapping in objects until one succeeds works, but rather query an API for supported types
16:39:54 <davidmays> … want the application to make an active decision rather than use fallbacks
16:40:05 <davidmays> … want to query the UA somehow
16:40:20 <davidmays> Bob: do that with a JS function and call canPlayType() to query now
16:40:42 <davidmays> Glenn: that means you have to have a list in mind first
16:40:52 <davidmays> Clarke: is there a precedent for anything similar?
16:41:49 <davidmays> Dave Mays: does that expose an information security issue? "what do you handle" vs "do you handle x"
16:42:09 <ph_> ph_ has joined #webtv
16:42:11 <davidmays> Jason: does that try to download content at all?
16:42:18 <davidmays> Bob: No
16:42:30 <davidmays> Jason: comfortable with this requirement now
16:42:36 <glenn> q- glenn
16:42:44 <jasonlewis> q-
16:43:04 <davidmays> Clarke: point about sniffing may also be relevant. most things in HTML are asked in the form of "do you support x" rather than "what are all the things you support"
16:43:25 <davidmays> … asking for other requirements that should be in this list
16:43:42 <davidmays> … talk about procedure
16:44:02 <davidmays> … when something gets listed in req'ts list, i'll put an indication whether it's "OPEN" issue or not
16:44:10 <davidmays> … will link to an actual Wiki ISSUE
16:44:26 <davidmays> … leave open until we get resolved
16:44:35 <davidmays> … keep dashboard relevant for current topics
16:44:51 <davidmays> … any other topics for today?
16:45:15 <davidmays> … dive into content protection next week, hope to see netflix proposal
16:46:03 <Zakim> -glenn
16:46:08 <Zakim> -John_Simmons
16:46:13 <duncanr> duncanr has left #webtv
16:46:14 <kaz> [ adjourned ]
16:46:15 <Zakim> -Mark_Vickers
16:46:16 <Zakim> -Duncan
16:46:17 <Zakim> -Bob_Lund
16:46:17 <Zakim> -Jason
16:46:19 <Zakim> -Juhani
16:46:21 <Zakim> -Dave_Mays
16:46:22 <Zakim> -Clarke
16:46:28 <davidmays> you're welcome
16:46:29 <Zakim> -Philipp
16:46:37 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
16:46:41 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:46:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/16-webtv-minutes.html kaz
16:47:31 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki
16:47:32 <Zakim> -giuseppe
16:47:32 <Zakim> UW_WebTVIG()11:00AM has ended
16:47:34 <Zakim> Attendees were glenn, Clarke, Dave_Mays, Kazuyuki.a, MarkW, Kazuyuki.b, Duncan, Narm_Gadiraju, Kazuyuki, Philipp, Mark_Vickers, Bob_Lund, John_Simmons, Jason, +1.503.705.aabb,
16:47:36 <Zakim> ... +1.925.984.aacc, joesteele, Juhani, giuseppe
16:47:58 <kaz> Chair: Clarke
16:48:01 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:48:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/16-webtv-minutes.html kaz
16:48:47 <kaz> s/Web and TV Interest Group Teleconference/Media Pipeline Task Force Teleconference/
16:48:49 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:48:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/16-webtv-minutes.html kaz
16:49:13 <kaz> rrsagent, stop