IRC log of ua on 2012-02-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:34:39 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:34:39 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/16-ua-irc
17:34:41 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:34:41 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:34:43 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:34:43 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 26 minutes
17:34:44 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:34:44 [trackbot]
Date: 16 February 2012
17:34:58 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:46:11 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Discussion on guideline levels - FILL OUT SPREADSHEET, so we can make decisions on Thursday.
17:46:12 [JAllan]
Agenda+ New Working draft!
17:46:14 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review other proposals sent to list
17:46:15 [JAllan]
Agenda+ actions/issues
17:47:38 [JAllan]
agenda+ wayne's executive summary for UAAG and Mobile http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/ExecSum.html
17:54:04 [jeanne]
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17:57:39 [jeanne]
agenda?
17:58:02 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:58:09 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:00:40 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
18:03:03 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:03:24 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
18:05:47 [Zakim]
+Wayne
18:06:34 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
18:06:41 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:06:44 [Kford]
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18:06:47 [Jan]
zakim, code?
18:06:47 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
18:06:51 [Wayne]
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18:07:28 [JAllan]
regrets +Mark
18:07:33 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
18:07:46 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
18:07:46 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:07:48 [JAllan]
regrets+ Mark
18:08:00 [JAllan]
regrets+ Kelly
18:09:18 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:09:23 [Kford]
Only have irc and likely more reading than talking trying this with phone on plane.
18:09:26 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
18:09:26 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:09:27 [Zakim]
1. Discussion on guideline levels - FILL OUT SPREADSHEET, so we can make decisions on Thursday. [from JAllan]
18:09:27 [Zakim]
2. New Working draft! [from JAllan]
18:09:27 [Zakim]
3. Review other proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:09:27 [Zakim]
4. actions/issues [from JAllan]
18:09:27 [Zakim]
5. wayne's executive summary for UAAG and Mobile http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/ExecSum.html [from JAllan]
18:09:51 [JAllan]
scribe: greg
18:10:08 [Greg]
zakim, take up item 2
18:10:08 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "New Working draft!" taken up [from JAllan]
18:10:24 [jeanne]
zakim, order items 2, 5, 1
18:10:24 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'order items 2, 5, 1', jeanne
18:11:27 [Greg]
Planned for one draft before last call draft, but Judy would like the next published draft to include our work on levels, allowing us to get feedback on the approach. Thus won't publish before CSUN.
18:12:27 [Greg]
Jeanne: We'll include our draft prioritization and a brief introduction to the methodology, rather than all the tables we're using to develop the priorities.
18:12:45 [Wayne]
http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/Feasibility.html
18:13:35 [Wayne]
http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/ExecSum.html
18:15:08 [Greg]
Jeanne: presented an overview of our approach to CG meeting. Feedback that we need to be very careful about using language that people in the community are sensitive to, e.g. medical model (e.g. "severity"), comparing disabilities against each other, ensure all groups treated fairly, etc.
18:16:18 [Greg]
Jeanne: Clearly we can't use simple math to combine all the rating criteria, such as averaging the numbers. Like approach of min, max, and mean.
18:16:42 [Greg]
Kim: And anything with a 5 (highest) for any group needs to be a 5.
18:17:27 [JAllan]
the highest point value in any column becomes the value for that SC
18:18:57 [Greg]
Wayne: need to think about method for catching errors more robustly than other standards, sure we'll overlook some issues.
18:20:16 [Greg]
Wayne: Good process to review all the priorities, thinking about them objectively.
18:21:34 [jeanne]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiGLIaAlHSKdHNrcGNacUp2MHdXQW9sUmpBQ21Lenc&hl=en_US&pli=1#gid=0
18:21:42 [Kford]
Do we want to think about any limits on the total number of level A items we want?
18:21:44 [JAllan]
the highest point value in any user barrier column becomes the barrier value for that SC, then we factor in the already implemented or the feasibility/effort to meet the SC
18:22:44 [JAllan]
to reach the final ranking
18:22:56 [Greg]
Kim: Likes Kelly's idea of everyone voting for a certain number of items to be Level A. Everyone has a few that they think are key.
18:24:03 [JAllan]
greg: take the high of the impact column, then take the feasibility (should be the ultimate arbiter- if it is not reasonable to implement it won't be)
18:24:58 [Greg]
Wayne: Anything that's implemented from the DOM is feasible, even if not implemented yet and so may require add-ons.
18:25:30 [Greg]
Wayne: E.g. no excuse for user agent to not implement intent of WCAG 2.0.
18:26:31 [Greg]
Wayne: That is, even if not implemented, if we know it's not hard to implement, we can still require it.
18:28:25 [Greg]
Wayne: E.g. the SC talking about labels associated with form information, or table structure analysis.
18:28:44 [Greg]
Jeanne: Any real example of something about WCAG that browsers can implement and don't?
18:29:55 [JAllan]
greg: so the browser could create an interactive outline, or breadcrumb.
18:30:41 [Greg]
Jim brings us back on topic, schedule of next working draft.
18:32:26 [Greg]
zakim, take up item 5
18:32:26 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "wayne's executive summary for UAAG and Mobile http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/ExecSum.html" taken up [from JAllan]
18:33:34 [Greg]
Jim: Wayne's draft is great, although intro might be more lofty than what we can accomplish at this time.
18:33:48 [Greg]
Jim: WCAG might not be able to to "the" mobile guidelines.
18:34:07 [Greg]
Jim: Will take Wayne's draft and work on it.
18:36:20 [Greg]
(Discussion of Wayne's work on style sheets, with lots of interest in the working group.)
18:38:57 [Greg]
Wayne: Struck by how mobile devices are a good test of modalities outside the desktop.
18:39:02 [Greg]
zakim, take up item 1
18:39:02 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Discussion on guideline levels - FILL OUT SPREADSHEET, so we can make decisions on Thursday." taken up [from JAllan]
18:40:06 [JAllan]
modality independence = input/output methodology
18:40:57 [Greg]
Jim: Recommending everyone who hasn't filling in data yet should.
18:43:31 [Greg]
Discussion of new convention of putting your own ratings in cells with your initials, e.g. if you disagree with the "3" add ", KP: 4", etc.
18:44:08 [Greg]
Jan notes that it's a huge number of cells to review.
18:44:27 [Greg]
Jim: Putting in examples, extensions, etc. are important.
18:46:10 [Greg]
Jim: Simon sent to the list the summary of a study done at U. Manchester about how people with low dexterity and low vision mirror the same barriers that mobile users have interacting with content.
18:46:56 [Greg]
Kim: The rows where columns have different numbers are those we should talk about.
18:47:08 [Greg]
Kim: Also put in any disagreements for discussion.
18:48:19 [Greg]
Kim: @ are used to indicate things that need to be worked on; take them off if you fill in empty cells with numbers you feel good about.
18:52:45 [Greg]
Wayne: Doing definitely/definitely not/maybe voting helps narrow down lists quickly.
18:53:25 [Greg]
Discussion of ways of getting to a reasonable number of Level A SC.
18:55:23 [Greg]
Jeanne: The current spreadsheet is a reasonable methodology for producing priorities that we can justify and explain.
18:56:32 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
18:56:32 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:56:34 [Zakim]
1. Discussion on guideline levels - FILL OUT SPREADSHEET, so we can make decisions on Thursday. [from JAllan]
18:56:34 [Zakim]
2. New Working draft! [from JAllan]
18:56:34 [Zakim]
3. Review other proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:56:34 [Zakim]
4. actions/issues [from JAllan]
18:56:34 [Zakim]
5. wayne's executive summary for UAAG and Mobile http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/ExecSum.html [from JAllan]
18:57:31 [Greg]
Kim: Can anyone do the audio-related columns?
18:57:56 [Greg]
Jim: Put some in those columns.
18:58:22 [Greg]
Jim: His thinking evolved as he went down the rows, through practice and further thought.
18:59:25 [Greg]
Jan: If you find two that interfere with each other, might look into combining them.
18:59:57 [Greg]
Wayne: Often a set of SC work together, leaving out any one breaks the entire thing for some people.
19:00:42 [Greg]
Kim: Big example for her is if she can customize keyboard shortcuts and distribute them to other users, she can work around a lot of problems, making other SC less important.
19:01:33 [Greg]
Jim: Mark found examples of non-standardized gestures.
19:01:53 [Greg]
Kim: Also speech input becoming more widely implemented but totally nonstandardized.
19:02:09 [JAllan]
Mark: A concern I have is that there is not enough recognition of the ways in which the phones can or should augment the UA with sensor capabilities to adapt the UI and content presentation.
19:02:12 [Greg]
Kim: That means it takes a lot of cognitive space.
19:03:31 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
19:03:48 [Greg]
Jeanne: When rating, she used 5 as "no access to the info", 4 as "requires expertise", etc. (She'll expand later.)
19:04:07 [jeanne]
5 - no access, 4 -requires expert knowledge to access, 3 -hard or slow to accomplish task, 2 - makes it easier or more efficient, 1 - nice to have
19:05:02 [Greg]
Wayne: a person who can read individual characters at huge size, but it's too slow to be considered functional literacy.
19:05:45 [Greg]
Kim: Similarly using speech to control the mouse pointer allows one to do almost anything, but so slowly that you can't use it effectively for real work.
19:06:40 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
19:06:41 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
19:06:41 [Zakim]
1. Discussion on guideline levels - FILL OUT SPREADSHEET, so we can make decisions on Thursday. [from JAllan]
19:06:41 [Zakim]
2. New Working draft! [from JAllan]
19:06:41 [Zakim]
3. Review other proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
19:06:41 [Zakim]
4. actions/issues [from JAllan]
19:06:42 [Zakim]
5. wayne's executive summary for UAAG and Mobile http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/ExecSum.html [from JAllan]
19:11:21 [Zakim]
-Wayne
19:11:22 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
19:11:23 [Zakim]
-Jan
19:11:27 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
19:11:28 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
19:11:28 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:11:28 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, Wayne, Kim_Patch, Jan
19:11:35 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:11:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/16-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:12:39 [JAllan]
Chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
19:12:44 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:12:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/16-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:13:02 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
19:13:02 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items