IRC log of svg on 2012-02-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:57:29 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
19:57:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:57:31 [Zakim]
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19:57:33 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
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ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
19:57:34 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:57:34 [trackbot]
Date: 16 February 2012
20:00:15 [krit]
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GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM has now started
20:00:38 [Zakim]
20:01:56 [Zakim]
20:02:25 [Zakim]
20:02:37 [ed]
Zakim, [IP is me
20:02:37 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
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20:04:38 [Zakim]
20:04:44 [karl]
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20:05:32 [ed]
chair: ed
20:05:39 [ed]
20:05:42 [ChrisL]
zakim, pick a victim
20:05:42 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisL
20:05:53 [ChrisL]
scribenick: ChrisL
20:06:10 [ChrisL]
topic: transforms
20:06:17 [shepazu]
20:06:41 [ChrisL]
krit: main differnce is syntax between svg and css, proposed an extended parser algorithm to deal with both
20:06:52 [ChrisL]
... erik was in support
20:07:21 [ChrisL]
shepazu: could yousummarise how it could be integrated and what the changes are?
20:07:45 [ChrisL]
krit: we allow more spaces instead of commas, for example
20:08:15 [ed] <-- that's the proposal
20:08:53 [ChrisL]
... also rotate with three arguments with a coordinate. css does not support this they worry about conflict with existing html/css implementations
20:09:31 [ChrisL]
... boris suggested that only svg would allow the three arguments
20:09:43 [Zakim]
20:09:45 [Zakim]
20:09:56 [ChrisL]
shepazu: so for css transforms you specify a transform origin
20:10:10 [cyril]
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20:10:21 [ChrisL]
krit: no, it affects the whole stack
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20:10:37 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: so you need to translate, rotate, and translate back
20:11:12 [ChrisL]
shepazu: talking to css conent creators, they were frustrated at the lack of transform origin for a particular transform
20:11:25 [ChrisL]
krit: yes but in a list how would you do that
20:11:47 [ChrisL]
... would need a transform-origin list and it would need to be the same length
20:12:49 [ChrisL]
shepazu: so the transform origin is different for svg elements
20:13:01 [cyril]
zakim, who is here?
20:13:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, krit, ed, ChrisL, Tav, cyril, cabanier
20:13:10 [cyril]
RRSAgent, pointer
20:13:10 [RRSAgent]
20:13:37 [ChrisL]
krit: some images in current spec show how these work together
20:13:46 [ChrisL]
Tav: could use more examples
20:16:57 [ChrisL]
krit: does not make sense to publish 3d without 2d so we should continue with the merged spec
20:17:36 [ChrisL]
... no blocking issues from svg
20:17:59 [ChrisL]
shepazu: so current plan of action is to move forward on joint 2d and 3d transforms
20:18:27 [ChrisL]
krit: 3 point rotate might not be needed for html. parser issues are now dealt with
20:18:50 [ChrisL]
... so want a resolution on the parser syntax
20:18:58 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: it looked good to me
20:19:03 [ChrisL]
(general agreement)
20:19:31 [ChrisL]
resolution: adopt dirks' svg parser proposal for transform syntax in svg
20:19:59 [ChrisL]
shepazu: after that is incorporated, we should publish to /TR
20:20:31 [ChrisL]
... change of shortname means its a fpwd despite being published previously
20:20:49 [ChrisL]
... so sotd needs to explain relationship to previous spec
20:21:10 [ChrisL]
... svg 2d transforms, css 2d transforms (both already published).
20:21:33 [ChrisL]
... so push current spec to fpwd than modify in place the other two with obseletion notices
20:22:25 [ChrisL]
shepazu: so i propse we resolve to do that
20:23:17 [ed]
s/current spec/current spec -
20:25:37 [ChrisL]
krit: at CSS WG meeting yesterday it was clear that everyone wanted to push forward the merged specification and go to last call on it quickly
20:26:05 [ChrisL]
shepazu: yes, so it needs to go to fpwd
20:27:43 [ChrisL]
resolution: svgwg agees to publish the css3 merged transform spec as fpwd
20:29:10 [ChrisL]
shepazu: we should devote a significant amount of css and svg telcons to getting this out the door
20:29:20 [ChrisL]
... if there are issues, lets solve them
20:29:36 [ChrisL]
tav: status of 3d impl for svg?
20:29:40 [ChrisL]
(not yet)
20:30:05 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: can still write tests
20:31:22 [ChrisL]
shepazu: spec is well enough written that its clear how to write tests
20:31:31 [ChrisL]
tav: there are some unclear places
20:31:38 [ChrisL]
shepazu: test help there too
20:32:46 [ChrisL]
action: erik to inform css wg of our resolution and asking them to resolve likewise
20:32:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3238 - Inform css wg of our resolution and asking them to resolve likewise [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-02-23].
20:34:14 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: spec has boilerplate autogenerated so it only mentins css wg not svg wg. an oversight I am sure
20:34:34 [ChrisL]
shepazu: comments should go to fxtf
20:34:59 [cabanier]
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20:35:13 [ChrisL]
cyril: don't want to read all of www-style ro get the comments
20:35:28 [ChrisL]
20:36:19 [ChrisL]
shepazu: its easy to follow a link to join a mailing list, for people interested.
20:36:56 [ChrisL]
krit: css3-transforms keyword in subject
20:37:06 [ChrisL]
cyril: but people are not consistent
20:37:16 [ChrisL]
shepazu: mailto link can contain the subject
20:37:58 [ChrisL]
topic: svg attrs to presentation attrs
20:38:09 [ChrisL]
ed: no-one from microsoft here
20:38:17 [ChrisL]
... pinged them but no response
20:38:24 [shepazu]
s/the subject/the subject "[css3-transforms]"/
20:38:28 [ChrisL]
cyril: we can't wait for them for ever
20:38:34 [ChrisL]
krit: spec needs an editor
20:38:53 [ChrisL]
ed: we could merge into svg2
20:39:43 [ChrisL]
... if we dont have a main editor for a smaller draft then its faster to merge
20:39:57 [ChrisL]
krit: can't edit at the moment due to other commitments
20:41:07 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: earlier draft had a lot of motivational material and rationale which is not needed now we have decided, though it was useful early on
20:41:24 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', shepazu. Try /msg RRSAgent help
20:41:30 [ChrisL]
krit: it should be a module because the css transforms spec can reference it later
20:41:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate shepazu
20:41:59 [ChrisL]
cyril: ask Brian as he is working on the web animation module
20:42:19 [ChrisL]
... he has worked on common model and syntax and we resolved that in Sydney
20:43:10 [ChrisL]
rik: myself, brian shin from google and alex danilo are working on this. couple of meetings an hour
20:43:20 [ChrisL]
... wiki pages on for it
20:43:21 [cyril]
20:43:45 [cyril]
s/myself, brian/myself, brian,/
20:44:43 [ChrisL]
ed: so we still want a separate module or to put it in svg2?
20:45:04 [ChrisL]
... or make it a separate chapter?
20:45:27 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: no opinion either way, just want it to get done
20:46:00 [ChrisL]
ed: in fx or in svg?
20:46:03 [Zakim]
20:46:05 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: unclear
20:46:43 [Zakim]
20:47:48 [ChrisL]
ed: i have an action to make a draft, was expecting to hand it over to patrick. makes sense to have someone from Microsoft as the main editor
20:48:07 [ChrisL]
... think the spec fits better in svg as its all about svg properties
20:49:06 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: surely if a 1.1 attr is an svg2 property then the description needs to be updated
20:49:27 [ChrisL]
krit: we have some peoperty names, need to be sure the property type is the same as the datatype
20:50:03 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is noisy?
20:50:14 [Zakim]
ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (42%), cyril (22%)
20:50:59 [ChrisL]
ed: so for general principle, we still need to resolve some issues like dom animval. wait for feedback from our developers on that
20:51:05 [ed]
20:51:21 [ChrisL]
... order of stylesheets etc
20:51:41 [ChrisL]
krit: graphic is wrong, will republish this evening
20:52:01 [ChrisL]
ed: prefer to wait until we get feedback
20:52:34 [ChrisL]
krit: also getting feedback on impact on mozilla, webkit, microsoft on impact on current implementations. erik your comment is missing
20:53:13 [ChrisL]
ed: wil have feedback from dev team by next week
20:53:55 [ChrisL]
ed: anything else on this topic?
20:55:34 [ChrisL]
cabanier: the color-interpolation-filters could wait until next week, after getting more feedback
20:55:42 [ChrisL]
topic: process for editing svg2
20:55:48 [ed]
20:55:52 [ed]
20:56:29 [Zakim]
20:57:31 [ChrisL]
ed: so if you own a feature you edit it, main editors czan edit the whole document
20:57:52 [ChrisL]
cyril: seems to say if you dont own a feature you can't edit it
20:58:41 [ChrisL]
cyril: also good to annotate who owns which bit so its clear who to contact
21:00:23 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: proposal is inconsistent on substantive changes made 'unilaterally' by the editors
21:00:54 [ChrisL]
tav: so i made changes in redial gradients related to border focus point. under this i would have to find the feature owner and ask them to do it
21:01:05 [ChrisL]
cyril: well, you would be the owner in that case
21:01:18 [ChrisL]
krit: can there be more than one owner of a section
21:01:25 [ChrisL]
ed; sure we will overlap
21:01:42 [ChrisL]
Tav: strict rules good at the end but slow us down at the start
21:01:49 [cyril]
21:02:29 [ed]
s/ed; sure we will overlap/ed: over time I'm sure there will be overlap
21:02:42 [ChrisL]
krit; so the amin editors are guardians on whether a change should be rolled out
21:02:55 [krit]
21:03:30 [ChrisL]
ed: good to have someone to drive a feature and good to have some main editors, tav has played that role.
21:03:46 [ChrisL]
krit: editorship can change, too
21:04:09 [ChrisL]
ed; prefer to have heycam to explain the rationale a bit more
21:04:50 [Zakim]
21:04:50 [vhardy_]
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21:04:52 [ChrisL]
(krit leaves)
21:05:20 [Zakim]
21:05:23 [cyril]
21:05:25 [ChrisL]
cyril: lets revisit when cameron is here
21:05:31 [ChrisL]
topic: hamburg f2f
21:05:37 [ed]
21:05:38 [ChrisL]
ed: pleae register
21:06:08 [Zakim]
21:06:09 [ed] <-- you know what to do :)
21:06:25 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: not got flights 9or travel authorisation) worked out yet. i see hotels are filling up though
21:06:44 [vhardy_]
Kind reminder to book your hotel. As mentioned on email, we only have holds for a few more days.
21:06:51 [ChrisL]
ed: arriving same day as brian, staying at clipper
21:06:52 [cyril]
21:06:57 [ChrisL]
cyril: as will i
21:07:04 [vhardy_]
vhardy: I will stay at the East
21:07:56 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: unclear on date and length of joint meeting
21:08:06 [ChrisL]
ed: its the 9th, morning at least
21:08:23 [ChrisL]
cyril: not enough for transforms, animations ....
21:08:39 [vhardy_]
vhardy: could make it the whole day?
21:08:49 [ChrisL]
ed: need writeupsd and prep for those topics
21:08:58 [ChrisL]
+1 for whole day
21:09:06 [ChrisL]
ed: plan to have updated filters spec
21:09:35 [ChrisL]
ed: will confirm with css chairs about ful day
21:09:59 [ChrisL]
action: erik to check with css chairs that a full day joint meeting is okay
21:10:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3239 - Check with css chairs that a full day joint meeting is okay [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-02-23].
21:10:36 [ChrisL]
ed: are there enough here to fo more svg2 requirements?
21:10:44 [ChrisL]
topic: svg2 requirements
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21:10:53 [ChrisL]
cyril: some of them are easy.
21:11:01 [ChrisL]
... lets do the xml events
21:11:25 [cyril]
21:12:09 [Zakim]
21:12:24 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: is this progress events that j-c duford was editing? does it conflict with html5 progress events/
21:12:34 [ChrisL]
cyril: use case is download progress bar
21:13:04 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: agree on requirement but prefer the html5 solution
21:13:11 [ChrisL]
cyril; ok for me
21:13:45 [cyril]
zakim, who is here?
21:13:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ed, cyril, ChrisL, Tav
21:13:49 [ChrisL]
21:13:54 [Zakim]
21:14:04 [ChrisL]
21:14:44 [ChrisL]
cyril: looks to be much the same as the svg one. no brainer, adopt theirs
21:14:52 [jyu]
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21:15:09 [ChrisL]
resolved: accept progress events requirement and adopt html5 method for this
21:15:48 [cyril]
21:15:49 [ChrisL]
topic; svg timer event
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21:16:09 [ChrisL]
ed: think we should drop it. no sense to have an svg specific interface for timers
21:16:27 [ChrisL]
cyril; is there an html5 equivalent or are people using settimeout
21:16:35 [ChrisL]
ed; or request animation frame
21:17:05 [ChrisL]
cyril: can do declarative animation and look at the repeat event also
21:17:12 [ChrisL]
... fine with dropping it
21:17:26 [ChrisL]
resolution svg2 will not have the svg timer event
21:17:48 [ChrisL]
topic: The MouseWheel event
21:18:01 [ChrisL]
21:18:07 [cyril]
RRSAgent, point
21:18:07 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'point', cyril. Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:18:08 [cyril]
RRSAgent, pointer
21:18:08 [RRSAgent]
21:18:18 [ChrisL]
ed: reference dom3 evvents for thsi
21:18:47 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: is i in dom3 - about to be dropped?
21:18:50 [ChrisL]
ed: no
21:18:59 [ChrisL]
ed: but we need to have the event
21:19:36 [ChrisL]
resolved: svg2 will support the mousewheel event as defined in the DOM specifications
21:19:55 [ChrisL]
topic: Modified sections for hit testing, event processing
21:20:46 [cyril]
21:21:06 [ChrisL]
(we look for links)
21:21:57 [ChrisL]
21:22:13 [ChrisL]
some stuff on hit testing of text
21:22:26 [ChrisL]
ed: and bounding box value
21:22:32 [ChrisL]
... should port over
21:23:20 [ChrisL]
reolved: svg2 will adopt improved svgt1.2 text on hit testing and event processing
21:23:36 [ChrisL]
resolved: svg2 will adopt improved svgt1.2 text on hit testing and event processing
21:23:42 [ChrisL]
topic: XML Events
21:23:51 [ChrisL]
ChrisL; drop the entire feature
21:24:09 [ChrisL]
resolution: svg2 will adopt improved svgt1.2 text on hit testing and event processing
21:24:37 [ChrisL]
ed: no need for xml events. could make a seperate module but prefer the existing on-* attrs
21:24:53 [ChrisL]
cyril: it was a good thing, too bad it was not adopted
21:25:22 [ChrisL]
... what other declarative wat to create or monitor events?
21:25:31 [ChrisL]
... animations plus script
21:26:08 [ChrisL]
cyril; and can register a dom listener in script
21:26:14 [ChrisL]
... ok to not support it
21:26:36 [ChrisL]
resolution: svg2 will not support xml events
21:27:43 [ChrisL]
topic: New Linking features
21:27:59 [ChrisL]
ed: reference restrictions good, needs tweak for svg2 features
21:28:21 [ChrisL]
... different restrictions in 1.1 and 1.2T
21:28:54 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: Processing External References is good clarifying text
21:29:13 [ChrisL]
uses more up to date language than the sloppy language in 1.1
21:29:17 [ChrisL]
ed: yes
21:29:34 [ChrisL]
... again not exactly but a section like that
21:30:13 [ChrisL]
resolution: svg2 will adopt the improved wording on Processing External References and Reference Restrictions
21:30:23 [ChrisL]
ed: needs more work for external references
21:31:04 [ChrisL]
21:31:14 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
21:31:14 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Doug_Schepers, krit, [IPcaller], ed, ChrisL, Tav, cyril, cabanier, [Microsoft]
21:31:22 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:31:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
21:31:26 [Zakim]
21:31:28 [Zakim]
21:31:29 [Zakim]
21:31:32 [Zakim]
21:31:37 [Zakim]
21:31:38 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM has ended
21:31:38 [Zakim]
Attendees were Doug_Schepers, krit, [IPcaller], ed, ChrisL, Tav, cyril, cabanier, [Microsoft]
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21:55:14 [heycam]
ed, sorry I missed the call, I forgot to set my alarm last night ><
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