IRC log of css on 2012-02-15
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 16:29:49 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #css
- 16:29:49 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/15-css-irc
- 16:29:54 [glazou]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 16:57:18 [Zakim]
- Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
- 16:57:25 [Zakim]
- +??P41
- 16:57:31 [glazou]
- Zakim, ??P41 is me
- 16:57:31 [Zakim]
- +glazou; got it
- 16:57:51 [shepazu]
- Zakim, code?
- 16:57:55 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), shepazu
- 16:58:18 [Zakim]
- +Doug_Schepers
- 16:59:21 [Zakim]
- + +1.206.550.aaaa
- 17:00:03 [danielweck]
- danielweck has joined #css
- 17:00:11 [stearns]
- zakim, aaaa is me
- 17:00:12 [Zakim]
- +Bert
- 17:00:17 [antonp]
- antonp has joined #css
- 17:00:41 [arronei]
- arronei has joined #css
- 17:00:46 [Zakim]
- +??P53
- 17:00:49 [florianr]
- Zakim, I am ??P53
- 17:00:54 [Zakim]
- +stearns; got it
- 17:00:56 [Zakim]
- +[Apple]
- 17:00:56 [smfr]
- smfr has joined #css
- 17:01:08 [hober]
- Zakim, Apple has me
- 17:01:29 [Zakim]
- +glenn
- 17:01:35 [glazou]
- Zakim, ??53 is florianr
- 17:01:44 [krit]
- krit has joined #css
- 17:02:03 [Zakim]
- +florianr; got it
- 17:02:08 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 17:02:16 [glazou]
- Zakim, who is here?
- 17:02:23 [TabAtkins_]
- TabAtkins_ has joined #css
- 17:02:28 [Zakim]
- +hober; got it
- 17:02:28 [krit]
- Zakim, who's here?
- 17:02:32 [Bert]
- zakim, bert also has fantasai
- 17:02:35 [Zakim]
- -Doug_Schepers
- 17:02:38 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 17:02:39 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft.a]
- 17:02:49 [glazou]
- Zakim, WAKE UP
- 17:02:56 [danielweck]
- Zakim, where are you?
- 17:03:08 [Zakim]
- +??P18
- 17:03:08 [TabAtkins_]
- I'll be in momentarily.
- 17:03:10 [Zakim]
- sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '??53'
- 17:03:20 [Zakim]
- +plinss
- 17:03:21 [danielweck]
- Zakim, ??P18 is me
- 17:03:21 [ChrisL]
- ChrisL has joined #css
- 17:03:26 [smfr]
- Zakim, Apple has me
- 17:03:42 [krit]
- +Present krit
- 17:03:45 [dstorey]
- dstorey has joined #css
- 17:03:58 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see glazou, stearns, Bert, florianr, [Apple], glenn, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], [Microsoft.a], ??P18, plinss
- 17:04:01 [Zakim]
- [Apple] has hober
- 17:04:11 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see glazou, stearns, Bert, florianr, [Apple], glenn, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], [Microsoft.a], ??P18, plinss
- 17:04:16 [Zakim]
- [Apple] has hober
- 17:04:20 [Zakim]
- +fantasai; got it
- 17:04:32 [krit]
- Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
- 17:04:32 [Zakim]
- +[Apple.a]
- 17:04:43 [Zakim]
- +??P75
- 17:04:46 [smfr]
- Zakim, [Apple.a] is me
- 17:04:52 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'WAKE UP', glazou
- 17:04:53 [danielweck]
- Zakim, ??P18 is me
- 17:04:56 [danielweck]
- (trying again)
- 17:05:00 [Zakim]
- I don't understand your question, danielweck.
- 17:05:06 [Zakim]
- + +93550aabb
- 17:05:22 [antonp]
- Zakim, aabb is me
- 17:05:24 [Zakim]
- +danielweck; got it
- 17:05:38 [Zakim]
- +smfr; got it
- 17:05:47 [fantasai]
- Scribe: fantasai
- 17:05:57 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see dstorey, ChrisL, TabAtkins_, krit, smfr, arronei, antonp, danielweck, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kojiishi, glenn, nimbu, SimonSapin, florianr, tantek_, drublic, tantek,
- 17:06:03 [Zakim]
- ... karl, arronei_, leaverou, jdaggett, Bert, Hixie, shepazu, stearns, ed, alexmog, shans_away, vhardy, sylvaing_away, plinss, krijnh, macpherson, trackbot, hober, gsnedders,
- 17:06:04 [fantasai]
- glazou: Any extra items for today?
- 17:06:06 [Zakim]
- ... paul___irish, CSSWG_LogBot, fantasai
- 17:06:06 [TabAtkins_]
- Bleh, took enough tries.
- 17:06:11 [TabAtkins_]
- ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
- 17:06:20 [fantasai]
- Florian: Not sure howcome is here today; if not, shouldn't talk about GCPM
- 17:06:30 [Zakim]
- +krit; got it
- 17:06:34 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: I noted that you posted clarifications about the selectors4 requests.
- 17:06:38 [Zakim]
- + +1.415.871.aacc
- 17:06:41 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: Let's move to the first item on our agenda today.
- 17:06:45 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: It's about -webkit- prefix.
- 17:06:46 [Zakim]
- +smfr; got it
- 17:06:53 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: I had a lot of chats between the first day and yesterday.
- 17:06:55 [Zakim]
- I already had ??P18 as danielweck, danielweck
- 17:06:59 [tantek]
- Zakim, aacc is tantek
- 17:06:59 [howcome]
- howcome has joined #css
- 17:07:01 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: That ended with the proposal I made to Brendan.
- 17:07:09 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: A compromise about what we could do in this WG.
- 17:07:12 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: Brendan Eich.
- 17:07:23 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: This was discussed between Brendana nd Jeff Jaffe on Monday.
- 17:07:26 [Zakim]
- +antonp; got it
- 17:07:34 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: I don't know the details, but apparently the compromise goes in the right direction.
- 17:07:40 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: So we need to discuss and find a plan here.
- 17:07:43 [Zakim]
- + +1.650.253.aadd
- 17:07:56 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: If it's so urgent that the three browser vendors raised in Monday, we need to move forward quickly.
- 17:08:00 [smfr]
- linky please
- 17:08:01 [Zakim]
- + +1.206.552.aaee
- 17:08:05 [Zakim]
- +tantek; got it
- 17:08:19 [SteveZ]
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- 17:08:31 [florianr]
- http://www.w3.org/mid/4F391911.307@disruptive-innovations.com
- 17:08:37 [tantek]
- to be clear - I was at that meeting with Jeff Jaffe and Brendan on Monday
- 17:08:50 [danielweck]
- Zakim has kicked me out
- 17:08:54 [danielweck]
- unable to join-in
- 17:09:05 [dbaron]
- dbaron has joined #css
- 17:09:08 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: That's not a decision, it's a proposal to discuss.
- 17:09:15 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: It merely seemed reasonable at the time I wrote it.
- 17:09:21 [dbaron]
- I'm getting a busy signal dialing Zakim
- 17:09:24 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: I'd like to discuss this, and if you have counterproposals, discuss those.
- 17:09:32 [SteveZ]
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- 17:09:35 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: What's the connection between this and what Brendan and Jeff discussed?
- 17:09:37 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: No idea.
- 17:09:45 [danielweck]
- Zakim says: "enable to take your call, try again later"
- 17:09:45 [JohnJansen]
- JohnJansen has joined #css
- 17:09:46 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: I was at the meeting. We discussed daniel's proposal.
- 17:09:56 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: I don't think anything new came out of that; it was just Jeff gaining a broder understanding.
- 17:10:12 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: The key point is the one I made in email - we don't have a specific list yet, and I don't think anyone has yet.
- 17:10:20 [SteveZ]
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- 17:10:30 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: I don't think anyone has a final list, but we should be able to give a top-5 list or something.
- 17:10:53 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: I can put it in a more coarse-grained fashion. We're still analyzing our data, and we don't have specific properties to propose yet.
- 17:10:57 [Rossen]
- Rossen has joined #css
- 17:11:13 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: It would be very helpful for us and the group if certain specs were made to advance more quickly.
- 17:11:18 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: Because the syntax is stable.
- 17:11:24 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: I have a questiona bout your studies.
- 17:11:41 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: It seems that with even a little bit of study, it seems easy to come up with a simple list of stuff applicable everywhere.
- 17:11:47 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: So what info are you looking for?
- 17:12:00 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: We also find that when -webkit-border-radius is used, there's also the other prefixes or unprefixed.
- 17:12:12 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: So the result is, how much difference would it amek to implement -webkit-border-radius?
- 17:12:20 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: if the answer is "not that much difference", it's not worth doing.
- 17:12:29 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: So it's the question of what it's used with.
- 17:12:35 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: If we can avoid supproting -webkit-, great.
- 17:13:06 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: When we do find a property that seems to be -webkit- prefixed only, the question is:
- 17:13:12 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: Is it affecting the user, and hwo much?
- 17:13:24 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: And that's a hard question to answer without manually looking at the site.
- 17:13:33 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: If you can't tell the difference, what's the point of implementing it?
- 17:13:42 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: So we're trying to be conservative here.
- 17:14:05 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: The coarse data alone, though, provides us enough clues to reccommend to the WG which specs to advance faster.
- 17:14:28 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: I've done some studies here. I don't think there as details as yours, but I've looked for whether -webkit- is used with or without something else that opera supports.
- 17:14:34 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: Can you share this data?
- 17:14:39 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: I've sent it to the private list.
- 17:14:47 [florianr]
- http://www.w3.org/mid/op.v9n5gsan4p7avi@localhost.localdomain
- 17:15:27 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: Are you making a big difference between border-radius, whichi is specified and implemented everywhere, and between properties that are more experiemental, have little or no spec, and not implemented anywhere else.
- 17:16:09 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: For the former, the decision to impelment -webkit- is only in your hands. There's nothing we can do on the standards side.
- 17:16:17 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: For the latter, we need more specs, we need faster movement.
- 17:16:32 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: There's a third case,w hich is important - things that are on progress, but not prefixed yet.
- 17:16:39 [Zakim]
- -danielweck
- 17:16:44 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: For the second case, I think we have a problem. Most of them come from Apple.
- 17:16:53 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: The current specs available online are really light, to say the least.
- 17:16:59 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: Like text-size-adjust?
- 17:17:03 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: Not only that, but yes.
- 17:17:09 [dbaron]
- did florianr say "not unprefixed yet" rather than "not prefixed yet"?
- 17:17:11 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: I think the definition is underspecified, to say the least.
- 17:17:27 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: From my data, text-size-adjust comes first among things without a spec, -webkit-appearance is next.
- 17:17:37 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: When you crawl, what UA string are you using?
- 17:17:45 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: wget's UA string.
- 17:17:56 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: On the mobile web, you get very different content based on the UA string.
- 17:18:10 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: If you pretend to be webkit, the results are completely different.
- 17:18:19 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: So we're trying to figure out which method to use to report the numbers.
- 17:18:41 [smfr]
- [time check: 2 mins left on this issue; what are we trying to achieve?]
- 17:18:45 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: I've seen people doing mroe sophisticated analysis, and the numbers were higher if they spoofed as webkit, but the ordering was pretty similar to my method.
- 17:18:59 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: So, what are we going to do *now*?
- 17:19:14 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: We need specs for the underspecified properties, and we need analysis for the ones that need to go faster.
- 17:19:26 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: I think there are 3 specs that the WG needs to publish as LC asap.
- 17:19:37 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: And ocnsider dropping prefixes early since the syntax is stable.
- 17:19:44 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: Transforms, Transitions, and Animations.
- 17:19:48 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: 2d or 3d?
- 17:19:52 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: I think 2d.
- 17:19:58 [Zakim]
- -smfr
- 17:19:59 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: Based on the wG discussion to split 2d and 3d.
- 17:20:12 [smfr]
- oops
- 17:20:24 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: I think we agreed to try and advance them together, because it would be more work to pull them apart.
- 17:20:31 [dbaron]
- smfr, you're not going to be able to dial in again, either
- 17:20:44 [smfr]
- just did
- 17:20:46 [Zakim]
- +[Apple.a]
- 17:20:53 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: going back to the things without a spec, I thinkw e're counting on webkit people to submit a spec for -webkit-text-size-adjust.
- 17:21:06 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: And appearance was dropped from CSS3 UI with the intent to be in CSS4 UI.
- 17:21:12 [dbaron]
- That said, Zakim is actually *ringing* now, which is better than before.
- 17:21:13 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: Analysis suggests it's being used.
- 17:21:36 [dbaron]
- I don't think appearance was dropped with intent to be in css4-ui.
- 17:21:38 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: I agree that it would be good to see proposals from Webkit about text-size-adjust, at least a simple draft.
- 17:21:42 [dbaron]
- I think it was dropped because some people objected to the principle.
- 17:22:10 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: On appearance, based on my prop there's very little interop. Most seem to be using it for appearance:none. But I don't think there was much actual impact of using it.
- 17:22:21 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: So I thinkt he highest impact is text-size-adjust and the three specs I mentioned.
- 17:22:31 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: So let's focus on those three specs and text-size-adjust.
- 17:22:38 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: It seems that the syntax is not going to change.
- 17:22:49 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: So can we unprefix and move them forward fast?
- 17:22:59 [TabAtkins_]
- smfr: At the f2f we decided *not* to split the transforms specs.
- 17:23:23 [dbaron]
- I think we should just try to move all of transforms forward quickly.
- 17:23:24 [TabAtkins_]
- smfr: And we have some demands for lTransforms syntax changes.
- 17:23:43 [fantasai]
- Tab: Let's move transforms forward. We can adjust syntax later.
- 17:23:52 [dbaron]
- We should reject the demands for syntax changes
- 17:24:31 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: So do we agree to move the Transforms spec without the syntax change?
- 17:24:42 [TabAtkins_]
- smfr: Are yout alking about combiend 2d/3d/svg transforms spec?
- 17:24:50 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: Yes.
- 17:25:03 [TabAtkins_]
- smfr: Are we going to wait for feedback from SVg, or define some conformance classes?
- 17:25:33 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: Has anyone shipped support for the new features?
- 17:25:34 [TabAtkins_]
- smfr: No.
- 17:26:22 [TabAtkins_]
- Dirk: The only difference is the three argument rotate(), so I don't think it makes sense to split from SVG right now.
- 17:26:26 [glenn]
- presumably transforms will go to LCWD before CR, yes?
- 17:26:33 [dbaron]
- I think the three argument rotate() should be reverted.
- 17:26:36 [ChrisL]
- In the context of a sepc jointly edited by SVG and CSS folks, how are you "waiting for feedback" from SVG
- 17:26:43 [fantasai]
- glenn, yes, that's required
- 17:26:46 [Zakim]
- +[Mozilla]
- 17:26:47 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: I'm not opposed to new things in the future, but I think it should be at minimum split into a separate WD and published later.
- 17:26:49 [dbaron]
- Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
- 17:26:49 [Zakim]
- +??P7
- 17:26:50 [Zakim]
- +dbaron; got it
- 17:26:56 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: Or marked it as at-risk and keep moving, knowing it might not exit CR.
- 17:27:04 [kojiishi]
- zakim, ??p7 is me
- 17:27:04 [Zakim]
- +kojiishi; got it
- 17:27:12 [TabAtkins_]
- smfr: The other issue is that we can't drop prefixes on 2d unless we start prefixing the 3d functions.
- 17:27:17 [TabAtkins_]
- smfr: Which will be confusing for authors.
- 17:27:32 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: Why is it difficult if we have interop on 2d?
- 17:27:35 [ChrisL]
- all the options are confusing to authors in some way
- 17:27:39 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: The prefixes are on the property, not the value.
- 17:27:46 [ChrisL]
- prefixing 3d seems the least confusing option
- 17:28:10 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: I think the 3d functions are already too spread on the web to worry about it.
- 17:28:16 [fantasai]
- florianr: so to unprefix 2d only, you'd have to prefix the 3d functions
- 17:28:24 [fantasai]
- florianr: which would be confusing for authors
- 17:28:31 [Zakim]
- +ChrisL
- 17:29:15 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: I would like a testsuite before we claim interop.
- 17:29:46 [TabAtkins_]
- TabAtkins_: Do ytou expect any lack of interop to affect the syntax?
- 17:29:54 [TabAtkins_]
- [unminuted talking over each other]
- 17:29:54 [ChrisL]
- +1 to tantek's proposal
- 17:30:03 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: It's just about splitting 2d/3d.
- 17:30:15 [smfr]
- is there anything new here that we didn't discuss at the F2F?
- 17:30:22 [ChrisL]
- tantek proposes moving to lcwd asap and dropping prefixes at lcwd for this spec
- 17:30:28 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: I'm not talking about exitting CR right now, just unprefixing.
- 17:30:51 [Bert]
- q+ fantasai
- 17:31:20 [Zakim]
- + +47.21.65.aaff
- 17:31:22 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: Are we making an exception to the unprefixing rule?
- 17:31:24 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: Yes.
- 17:31:54 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: Last week we discussed de facto vs de jure standards. These are de facto standards already.
- 17:32:39 [TabAtkins_]
- [bankrupcty]
- 17:33:24 [dbaron]
- sylvain: We have rules for dropping prefixes and I'm asking why we're making an exception?
- 17:33:33 [TabAtkins_]
- TabAtkins_: Back to the discussion. Transform, Transitions, Animations. Drop prefixes?
- 17:33:42 [TabAtkins_]
- TabAtkins_: Can we poll on this? Discussion seems to be going nowhere.
- 17:33:50 [glazou]
- Zakim, who is on the phone?
- 17:33:50 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see glazou, stearns, Bert, florianr, [Apple], glenn, [Microsoft], krit, [Microsoft.a], plinss, ??P75, antonp, tantek, +1.650.253.aadd, +1.206.552.aaee, [Apple.a],
- 17:33:54 [Zakim]
- ... dbaron, kojiishi, ChrisL, howcome
- 17:33:54 [Zakim]
- [Apple] has smfr
- 17:33:54 [Zakim]
- Bert has Bert, fantasai
- 17:34:07 [TabAtkins_]
- Poll options:
- 17:34:07 [nimbu]
- Zakim, aaee is me
- 17:34:07 [Zakim]
- +nimbu; got it
- 17:34:11 [hober]
- Zakim, Apple.a has me
- 17:34:11 [Zakim]
- +hober; got it
- 17:34:16 [TabAtkins_]
- 1) Move Transforms/Transitions/Animations to LC and allow unprefixing.
- 17:34:18 [Rossen]
- Zakim, Microsoft.a is me
- 17:34:18 [Zakim]
- +Rossen; got it
- 17:34:42 [TabAtkins_]
- 2) No exception, just try to move the specs fast.
- 17:35:22 [fantasai]
- If we're making an exception to the process, we should document that in the Snapshot *as an exception*
- 17:35:29 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: 1
- 17:35:33 [ChrisL]
- chris option 1
- 17:35:35 [glenn]
- glenn: 2
- 17:35:38 [TabAtkins_]
- astearns: 1
- 17:35:47 [fantasai]
- bert: 2
- 17:35:54 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: 1
- 17:36:28 [TabAtkins_]
- dirk: Does option 1 mean no more syntax changes?
- 17:36:32 [TabAtkins_]
- TabAtkins_: Yes.
- 17:36:34 [TabAtkins_]
- smfr: 2
- 17:36:46 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: 2
- 17:36:55 [nimbu]
- nimbu: 1
- 17:37:01 [TabAtkins_]
- plinss: Torn, but 2.
- 17:37:04 [TabAtkins_]
- antonp: 2
- 17:37:07 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: 1
- 17:37:07 [Rossen]
- Rossen: 2
- 17:37:13 [TabAtkins_]
- TabAtkins_: 1
- 17:37:14 [howcome]
- howcome: 1
- 17:37:17 [Zakim]
- -Rossen
- 17:37:18 [dbaron]
- dbaron: 1
- 17:37:21 [hober]
- hober: 2
- 17:37:22 [sylvaing]
- arronei: 2
- 17:37:22 [krit]
- krit: 2
- 17:37:25 [jet]
- jet has joined #CSS
- 17:37:35 [TabAtkins_]
- davidStorey: 1
- 17:37:45 [fantasai]
- :)
- 17:37:58 [sylvaing]
- -webkit-3?
- 17:38:05 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft.a]
- 17:38:15 [Rossen]
- Zakim, Microsoft.a is me
- 17:38:15 [Zakim]
- +Rossen; got it
- 17:39:06 [ChrisL]
- q+
- 17:39:07 [TabAtkins_]
- fantasai: My preference woudl be to list the transforms functions we're trying to unprefix in the Exceptions clause, and work on the spec knowing that we are syntax-constrained.
- 17:39:25 [dbaron]
- s/Exceptions clause/exceptions clause in the snapshot/
- 17:39:40 [ChrisL]
- fantasia is voting for a modified 1 which may allow syntax changes f there are issues
- 17:39:49 [ChrisL]
- ... to avoid multiple last calls
- 17:39:54 [SteveZ]
- SteveZ has joined #css
- 17:40:13 [ChrisL]
- I agree with fantasai
- 17:40:36 [dbaron]
- Yes, I'm happier with fantasai's modified (1) than with the original (1).
- 17:40:39 [Bert]
- (I think 3 is like 1, except that we explicitly reserve (and warn!) the right to change the syntax again.)
- 17:40:55 [ChrisL]
- 3) move to LCWD, try to freeze syntax, unprefix, but still correct issues if they arise in LCWD
- 17:41:11 [fantasai]
- fantasai: I don't agree with ignoring the issues and just pushing to CR. I also don't think any syntax change should be pushed to L4, because as sylvain says they need to be fixed now if at all.
- 17:41:40 [tantek]
- fantasai - please don't strawman - no one is just pushing to CR
- 17:42:01 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: I don't think the process is blocking us here.
- 17:42:16 [fantasai]
- fantasai: If people want to cycle through mutliple LCs because they feel that somehow makes it better, fine
- 17:42:19 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: In practice it is rarely a few weeks from first LC to CR.
- 17:42:51 [TabAtkins_]
- ChrisL: Often it takes way longer to process results.
- 17:43:09 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: How long a LC do you want, Sylvain?
- 17:43:27 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: So we have a proposal for, what, 8 weeks LC?
- 17:43:35 [glenn]
- does that include time for processing? 8wks seems long for comment period
- 17:43:57 [TabAtkins_]
- ChrisL: Seems like 8 weeks for dealing with issues, not actually the comment/review period.
- 17:44:04 [glenn]
- 3-4 weeks should be enough for comments...
- 17:44:13 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: I think 3 for review, 8 for dealing seems fine.
- 17:44:37 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: I think we can realistically take this to CR in 2-3 months. If we don't think it's doable, what are we doing dropping prefixes?
- 17:44:48 [TabAtkins_]
- dbaron: I think that in some cases, the specs are in bad shape where impls interop.
- 17:45:01 [TabAtkins_]
- dbaron: Not saying everything, but several cases where we have interop but the spec doesn't describe it properly.
- 17:45:04 [TabAtkins_]
- smfr: Can you give an example.
- 17:45:07 [TabAtkins_]
- dbaron: Not off my head.
- 17:45:16 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: When that happened in css2.1, we just changed the spec.
- 17:45:27 [TabAtkins_]
- dbaron: I'm not even saying the spec is different, but rather that it's unclear.
- 17:45:36 [TabAtkins_]
- glenn: And that should be fast.
- 17:45:55 [TabAtkins_]
- s/glenn/glazou/
- 17:45:56 [dbaron]
- (Though I'm thinking of some aspects of the model for animations.)
- 17:46:27 [Rossen]
- text-size-adjust is a good example of what dbaron just said
- 17:46:45 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: So, Sylvain, you want to drop prefixes in 11 weeks, not tomorrow, is that right?
- 17:46:49 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: I think so, yeah.
- 17:47:19 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: I don't want to make precedents for anything.
- 17:47:25 [Ms2ger]
- Ms2ger has joined #css
- 17:47:27 [glenn]
- where is "unprefixing rule" documented?
- 17:47:41 [fantasai]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS/
- 17:47:58 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: No precedent, this is an exception.
- 17:48:06 [smfr]
- glenn: the green text:http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS/#experimental
- 17:48:18 [glenn]
- tnx
- 17:48:32 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: We ahve a spec with four impls, but there hasn't been an urgency.
- 17:49:12 [glazou]
- hober: I think this is top priority
- 17:49:41 [TabAtkins_]
- [more unminuted discussion, arggggg]
- 17:50:13 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: I suggest the 3 browser vendors that want to unprefix discuss amongst themselves.
- 17:50:36 [ChrisL]
- q?
- 17:50:45 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: No consensus is emerging, despite all the discussion that has already happened.
- 17:50:51 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: We are *moving on*.
- 17:51:16 [tantek]
- q+
- 17:51:17 [dbaron]
- ack ChrisL
- 17:51:17 [TabAtkins_]
- ChrisL: Since we don't have consensus on dropping prefixes, I think the chair should discuss moving LC forward.
- 17:51:22 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: Agreed.
- 17:51:30 [fantasai]
- [unminuted discussion consisted of Sylvain arguing for just going through with the process rather than making an exception, and others arguing for making the exception]
- 17:51:31 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: So what are we going to do to address the issue asap.
- 17:51:32 [Bert]
- q- fan
- 17:51:45 [TabAtkins_]
- smfr: It seems we need to split into 3 and 4, where the new SVG stuff goes into level 4.
- 17:51:52 [TabAtkins_]
- smfr: With the remaining issue being 3d transforms.
- 17:52:19 [fantasai]
- [other unminuted discussion about daniel ruling that there is no consensus, and we should therefore dedicate our time to solving the issues and moving the spec forward]
- 17:52:21 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: I agree with smfr. I think that the problem here is not being properly understood. We'd like to implement unprefixed at the same time.
- 17:52:54 [dbaron]
- ack tantek
- 17:52:58 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: Let me make it clear. If the WG cannot unprefix quickly, we (firefox) will implement -webkit- prefixes.
- 17:53:18 [TabAtkins_]
- Dirk: Because of level 3/4 splitting, I don't think it makes sense to do the SVG stuff in two levels.
- 17:53:38 [TabAtkins_]
- Dirk: I don't think SVG is blocking 2d transforms, maybe 3d transforms.
- 17:53:54 [glenn]
- wouldn't it be better to go to a common prefix rather than reimplementing vendor specific prefixes? e.g., instead of simply dropping rule, encourage all vendors to support -w3-wd-... or some such?
- 17:53:55 [sylvaing]
- i understand webkit-only properties being an issue for mobile; transforms is not in that category imo
- 17:54:00 [TabAtkins_]
- ChrisL: We know what the differences are between SVG and CSS transforms.
- 17:54:46 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: For transitions and animations, you do?
- 17:55:02 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: No, I don't think any of those are killer.
- 17:55:24 [dbaron]
- TabAtkins: sylvain, that's different from what you said at the f2f
- 17:55:30 [dbaron]
- sylvain: No, it's consistent.
- 17:55:41 [fantasai]
- Sylvain said that -webkit-was a problem. He did not say that transforms was a problem.
- 17:55:51 [TabAtkins_]
- sylvaing: I don't think 3 months will make a difference. I want to prioritize and move on.
- 17:55:53 [krit]
- krit has joined #css
- 17:56:29 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: If the option is between -webkit- and unprefixed, or -webkit- and nothign else, I prefer the first option. But delaying unprefixed will not delay the decision we're making.
- 17:56:49 [TabAtkins_]
- florianr: This seems USELESS to continue discussing, since this is not working here.
- 17:57:13 [glenn]
- would prefer a common w3c sanctioned prefix over no prefix
- 17:57:13 [tantek]
- I want to hear from everyone who voted (2), what issues do you see as blocking LC for those 3 specs?
- 17:57:14 [TabAtkins_]
- glenn: Moz, MS, Opera, discuss together next week and bring a COMMON position to the WG.
- 17:57:19 [TabAtkins_]
- s/glenn/glazou/
- 17:57:34 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: If we end up with multiple positions in our call next week, this is a *waste of our time*.
- 17:57:41 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: So start that immediately in the mailing list.
- 17:57:48 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: tantek, can we try that?
- 17:58:15 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: Today we came for discussion, and I thought the 3 browser vendors had a common position. Apparently that's not the case.
- 17:58:34 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: So please get your positions together and bring it to the group, so we don't waste our time again.
- 17:58:39 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: I've put our position on the table.
- 17:58:45 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: I think the onus is on the objectors.
- 17:58:57 [glazou]
- s/onus/burden
- 17:59:03 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: Anyone who objects, please bring reasons for why they're opposing unprefixing, or why they're opposing LC.
- 18:00:15 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: I suggest we adjourn on this failure status, and we work on the issues RIGHT NOW in the mailing list.
- 18:00:28 [TabAtkins_]
- glazou: I can't declare any consuses with a 9-8 vote.
- 18:00:47 [Zakim]
- -[Microsoft]
- 18:00:49 [Zakim]
- -glenn
- 18:00:50 [Zakim]
- -antonp
- 18:00:51 [Zakim]
- -dbaron
- 18:00:53 [Zakim]
- -krit
- 18:00:54 [Zakim]
- -kojiishi
- 18:00:54 [Zakim]
- -[Apple.a]
- 18:00:55 [antonp]
- antonp has left #css
- 18:00:56 [Zakim]
- -??P75
- 18:00:56 [Zakim]
- - +1.650.253.aadd
- 18:00:58 [Zakim]
- -Rossen
- 18:00:59 [Zakim]
- -[Apple]
- 18:01:01 [Zakim]
- -Bert
- 18:01:03 [Zakim]
- -tantek
- 18:01:05 [Zakim]
- -florianr
- 18:01:05 [glazou]
- Zakim, who is on the phone?
- 18:01:07 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see glazou, stearns, plinss, nimbu, ChrisL, howcome
- 18:01:09 [Zakim]
- -howcome
- 18:01:11 [Zakim]
- -stearns
- 18:01:20 [glazou]
- Zakim, who is on the phone?
- 18:01:21 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see glazou, plinss, nimbu, ChrisL
- 18:01:34 [nimbu]
- what I am out of phone
- 18:01:35 [nimbu]
- :/
- 18:01:41 [ChrisL]
- zakim, drop nimbu
- 18:01:43 [Zakim]
- nimbu is being disconnected
- 18:01:43 [Zakim]
- -nimbu
- 18:01:47 [smfr]
- smfr has left #css
- 18:02:21 [dbaron]
- dbaron has joined #css
- 18:02:52 [TabAtkins_]
- tantek: Yes, please.
- 18:02:56 [TabAtkins_]
- Also: OMG
- 18:03:49 [stearns]
- tantek: if it goes too slowly and you end up implementing -webkit-, will you drop -webkit- once the process finally gets to the unprefixing state?
- 18:03:54 [tantek]
- ChrisL - no, the people that objected to (1) stopped that.
- 18:04:05 [tantek]
- stearns - unknown
- 18:04:16 [fantasai]
- tantek: Then you needed another option: Publish LCWD now, don't drop prefixes until CR
- 18:04:23 [tantek]
- fantasai - sure, if we have to publish multiple last calls, so be it.
- 18:04:44 [tantek]
- no, we need to drop prefixes as part of the exception clause for the snapshot as part of this
- 18:05:12 [ChrisL]
- tantek no. options 1 and 2 both involved moving to lcwd. the only difference was whether prefixes got dropped at lc or at cr
- 18:05:12 [fantasai]
- tantek: we spent the entire telecon arguing about that, and got no progress on moving to LC as a result
- 18:05:51 [tantek]
- ChrisL - no such promise was made in 2
- 18:05:56 [tantek]
- from IRC: 2) No exception, just try to move the specs fast
- 18:06:01 [SteveZ]
- SteveZ has joined #css
- 18:06:20 [glazou]
- tantek: see query
- 18:06:58 [tantek]
- fantasai - I've never had much hope for telcon productivity in general, so unfortunately I'm not that surprised.
- 18:11:43 [tantek]
- ChrisL - I'm still planning on asking to move Transforms, Transitions, Animations to LC ASAP.
- 18:11:50 [tantek]
- regardless of prefix discussions
- 18:12:03 [tantek]
- btw
- 18:12:34 [florianr]
- Forgive me being a noob, but how does it help to move a spec to LC with known issues, if we don't drop prefixes as well?
- 18:12:48 [howcome]
- howcome has left #css
- 18:12:52 [tantek]
- florianr - it helps force resolution of issues more quickly
- 18:13:00 [tantek]
- which then tends to remove objections to drop prefixes
- 18:13:28 [Zakim]
- -glazou
- 18:13:29 [Zakim]
- -ChrisL
- 18:13:33 [Zakim]
- -plinss
- 18:13:34 [Zakim]
- Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
- 18:13:34 [Zakim]
- Attendees were glazou, Doug_Schepers, +1.206.550.aaaa, Bert, stearns, glenn, florianr, [Microsoft], hober, plinss, fantasai, [Apple], +93550aabb, danielweck, smfr, krit,
- 18:13:34 [Zakim]
- ... +1.415.871.aacc, antonp, +1.650.253.aadd, +1.206.552.aaee, tantek, dbaron, kojiishi, ChrisL, +47.21.65.aaff, howcome, nimbu, Rossen
- 18:13:53 [fantasai]
- tantek: That can be done with less process overhead by addressing issues at a high priority while implementing high-fidelity tracking
- 18:14:10 [fantasai]
- tantek: The advantage of LC is that it pushes people to report their issues
- 18:14:15 [fantasai]
- tantek: and review if they haven't yet
- 18:14:46 [tantek]
- fantasai - in practice I don't believe that. In practice going to LC is what causes more quick reporting/addressing of issues.
- 18:14:51 [fantasai]
- tantek: The disadvantage is that when you make significant changes as a result of feedback, you have to recycle through LC, which imposes 3-week minimum
- 18:15:01 [tantek]
- fine with going thru LC again
- 18:15:12 [tantek]
- we already agreed it would take 8 weeks *after* LC
- 18:15:18 [tantek]
- so that gives us 2 more LC cycles :P
- 18:15:23 [fantasai]
- heh
- 18:15:24 [tantek]
- 3 if we push to 9 weeks
- 18:15:32 [tantek]
- <-- can do division
- 18:15:40 [tantek]
- btw, LOTS of people have been complaining that the problem with the -webkit- prefixes being established / mobile web monoculture is that the CSSWG has not moved fast enough - e.g. @stubbornella.
- 18:15:52 [tantek]
- today's telcon was clear support of that hypothesis
- 18:15:59 [tantek]
- that it's the CSSWG's fault for moving too slowly.
- 18:16:21 [fantasai]
- tantek: There were multiple telecons last December where daniel cancelled or closed early because nobody brought any issues forward for WG resolution
- 18:16:32 [fantasai]
- tantek: Transforms issues could have been addressed during that time
- 18:16:37 [fantasai]
- tantek: Why were they not addressed?
- 18:16:44 [tantek]
- because it wasn't in LC
- 18:16:48 [tantek]
- LC forces the resolutions
- 18:16:59 [glazou]
- tantek: s/CSSWG/a few members/
- 18:17:01 [glazou]
- please
- 18:17:02 [fantasai]
- tantek: No it doesn't, the editor bringing up the issues to the WG does.
- 18:17:07 [tantek]
- glazou - that's not what people see
- 18:17:13 [glazou]
- uuuuh ?????
- 18:17:13 [tantek]
- they see lack of consensus
- 18:17:17 [glazou]
- and
- 18:17:18 [glazou]
- ?
- 18:17:18 [tantek]
- they see process
- 18:17:22 [tantek]
- etc.
- 18:17:27 [glazou]
- we should be dictators ???
- 18:17:28 [fantasai]
- tantek: If the spec is in LC, and the editor is MIA, nothing moves.
- 18:17:28 [tantek]
- they see objection without providing reasons
- 18:17:31 [florianr]
- I'll have to side with fantasai here
- 18:17:39 [fantasai]
- tantek: Same as if the spec is in WD, and the editor is MIA, nothing moves.
- 18:17:40 [tantek]
- fantasai - I'm working on that editor MIA aspect
- 18:18:11 [fantasai]
- Missing In Action
- 18:18:13 [glazou]
- Missing iIn Action
- 18:18:57 [fantasai]
- In the last 9 months I do not recall any Transforms issues being addressed by the CSSWG except at F2Fs.
- 18:19:48 [glazou]
- nobody ever brought that as agenda item
- 18:19:49 [glazou]
- ever
- 18:19:51 [fantasai]
- How can you make fast progress with that?
- 18:19:54 [glazou]
- and we kept asking
- 18:19:56 [fantasai]
- Exactly.
- 18:20:04 [glazou]
- so seen from peter and I, it was NOT urgent
- 18:20:18 [glazou]
- we have no brain scanners
- 18:20:25 [glazou]
- we deal with what we see
- 18:20:30 [glazou]
- and the requests we get
- 18:20:49 [glazou]
- so I am _extremely_ upset and depressed to read some considered it's WG fault
- 18:20:51 [glazou]
- it is NOT
- 18:20:56 [glazou]
- name the guilty ones: MEMBERS
- 18:21:11 [glazou]
- we do what the MEMBERS want here
- 18:21:16 [glazou]
- always
- 18:21:31 [glazou]
- anyway, I have to go
- 18:21:37 [florianr]
- Here is a (perhaps naive) proposal. The chairs should make sure to nag members until each document that has reach FPWD or later has at least two editors from a different member
- 18:21:39 [glazou]
- hope my kids will be in better shape than this WG
- 18:21:41 [glazou]
- bye
- 18:21:49 [florianr]
- just a second glazou
- 18:21:54 [glazou]
- not more
- 18:21:58 [florianr]
- what do you think of what I said above
- 18:22:14 [glazou]
- in theory, nice ; in practice that's another story
- 18:22:23 [glazou]
- members DO resist to such proposals
- 18:22:31 [glazou]
- and that's not WG's responsibility but theirs
- 18:22:46 [glazou]
- right
- 18:22:50 [florianr]
- of course not
- 18:22:55 [glazou]
- or an editor that disappears during six months
- 18:22:59 [glazou]
- or more
- 18:23:07 [glazou]
- nothing the chairs can do there
- 18:23:16 [glazou]
- if the members don't jump on it
- 18:23:18 [fantasai]
- but it might be nice to point it out as a risk to progress when a spec's editor list is insufficiently diverse
- 18:23:24 [glazou]
- if that's urgent, they should act !
- 18:23:41 [glazou]
- I really need to go, and I killed my evening enough for today
- 18:23:42 [glazou]
- bye
- 18:23:47 [florianr]
- bye
- 18:25:33 [hober]
- fantasai: in the last 9 months many transforms bugs have been resolved in bugzilla & the spec. so i'm not sure what you mean when you say that that's only happened at f2fs
- 18:27:33 [nimbu]
- i think fantasai means it doesnt get discussed in teleconfs
- 18:27:39 [fantasai]
- yeah
- 18:31:15 [dbaron]
- it doesn't need to get discussed in telecons to make progress
- 18:31:18 [dbaron]
- things can happen via email
- 18:31:41 [dbaron]
- it gives group members a distorted image of where progress is being made, though
- 18:31:53 [fantasai]
- but if there are issues blocked on WG resolution, they should be brought up
- 18:32:08 [fantasai]
- and if there are issues being resolved and changes being made, there should be Working Drafts published
- 18:32:42 [fantasai]
- that both keeps the /TR page up-to-date, but also functions as a check point
- 18:33:06 [dbaron]
- if that were as easy as pressing a button, fine
- 18:33:26 [dbaron]
- but, frankly, it's not, so it takes time away from actually addressing issues
- 18:33:59 [Bert]
- It almost is: just ask for a decision to publish in the WG and then I'll do the rest...
- 18:55:21 [tantek]
- editors being MIA is a good reason to allow forking specs
- 18:55:43 [tantek]
- Bert - getting the WG to agreed to the decision to publish is the problem
- 18:55:56 [tantek]
- we couldn't even agree to take 3 relatively stable drafts to LC
- 18:56:05 [tantek]
- despite sense of urgency etc.
- 18:56:32 [tantek]
- actually, HTMLWG has it better in this way
- 18:56:46 [tantek]
- they automatically publish latest editor's drafts as heartbeat TR WDs
- 18:57:00 [tantek]
- unless there is a specific objection
- 18:57:08 [tantek]
- so in practice, people being MIA or unresponsive don't block TR WD publication
- 18:57:09 [Ms2ger]
- tantek, well yes, because they can't get consensus on anything but editorial issues
- 18:57:10 [fantasai]
- tantek: LC is different than WD
- 18:57:16 [tantek]
- perhaps we should switch to that model for CSSWG
- 18:57:27 [fantasai]
- tantek: WD would get few, if any, objections
- 18:57:28 [tantek]
- so that at least our public WDs wouldn't get 2+ years out of date :(
- 18:57:34 [fantasai]
- tantek: LC implies that all issues are resolved, and we know they're not
- 18:58:05 [fantasai]
- tantek: that's probably a good idea. Right now we rely on editor's to request publication, and they often dont.
- 18:58:14 [fantasai]
- tantek: btw, you're one of those
- 18:58:15 [fantasai]
- :)
- 18:58:15 [tantek]
- fantasai, http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-animations/ is almost 3 years old. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-animations/ was updated last week.
- 18:58:27 [fantasai]
- tantek: I *know*
- 18:58:28 [tantek]
- that's the problem I'm talking about
- 18:58:42 [tantek]
- HTMLWG heartbeat publishing of WDs is better in that regard
- 18:58:47 [tantek]
- we should just adopt that in the WG
- 18:58:50 [tantek]
- CSSWG
- 18:59:04 [fantasai]
- tantek: Makes less sense for us because we have so many specs
- 18:59:08 [tantek]
- no
- 18:59:13 [tantek]
- makes *more* sense
- 18:59:17 [fantasai]
- tantek: Publishing eveyrthing that hasn't changed is not useful
- 18:59:24 [tantek]
- too easy to miss a neglected spec
- 18:59:26 [Ms2ger]
- Someone could write an app to compare the last update of TR and ED specs, and send email to css-wg once the difference is more than three months
- 18:59:30 [tantek]
- fantasai - they HAVE changed
- 18:59:32 [tantek]
- that's the problem
- 18:59:34 [tantek]
- in the editor's draft
- 18:59:35 [tantek]
- duh
- 18:59:52 [tantek]
- Ms2ger - or we could make the chairs do it
- 18:59:52 [fantasai]
- tantek: YES, we should publish THE ONES THAT HAVE CHANGED, but not EVERYTHING
- 18:59:56 [tantek]
- the way the HTMLWG chairs do it
- 19:00:13 [tantek]
- fantasai - why bother with the difference?
- 19:00:18 [tantek]
- why are you making extra work?
- 19:00:25 [fantasai]
- tantek: because people rely on the date to know when the draft was last updated
- 19:00:27 [tantek]
- just publish updates for all of them
- 19:00:42 [fantasai]
- tantek: No, I refuse to agree with you.
- 19:00:42 [tantek]
- so they do for the editor's draft as well
- 19:00:53 [tantek]
- all that's happened is that TR has become irrelevant
- 19:00:56 [tantek]
- and people implemented ED now
- 19:01:04 [tantek]
- so you can either ignore that and be ok
- 19:01:06 [tantek]
- with it
- 19:01:09 [tantek]
- or try to salvage TR
- 19:01:13 [fantasai]
- *sigh*
- 19:01:17 [fantasai]
- you're ridiculous
- 19:01:23 [fantasai]
- and I am not discussing this anymore with you
- 19:01:28 [tantek]
- and with ad hominem I'm outta here
- 19:01:31 [tantek]
- try again tomorrow.
- 19:01:50 [fantasai]
- but I am going to dinner now
- 19:01:58 [Ms2ger]
- Heh
- 19:02:05 [Ms2ger]
- Enjoy dinner
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- 19:46:58 [TabAtkins_]
- plinss: I love you.
- 19:47:07 [plinss]
- :-)
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- 20:08:48 [shepazu]
- plinss: I love your gavel
- 20:09:12 [shepazu]
- THAT IS NOT A EUPHAMISM!!!!
- 20:09:22 [shepazu]
- an euphamism?
- 20:10:47 [TabAtkins_]
- It's spelled "stephen".
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- 20:45:41 [tpod]
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- 20:48:34 [tpod]
- Plinss that video was pretty funny. And I've never watched The Wire either.
- 20:49:14 [tpod]
- BTW I've created issues pages for transforms, transitions, and animations on our wiki.
- 20:49:48 [Ms2ger]
- We've got those in bugzilla
- 20:56:49 [nimbu]
- tpod: you are missing something really really amazing
- 20:57:18 [nimbu]
- i may not evangelise html5 but I will evangelize The Wire
- 20:58:53 [SteveZ]
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- 20:59:42 [sylvaing]
- The Wire is effing awesome
- 21:01:06 [glenn]
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- 21:04:39 [stearns]
- thirding on the Wire. Probably the best series ever broadcast on TV.
- 21:09:30 [nimbu]
- agreed
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- 21:15:25 [sylvaing]
- The Sopranos is also up there
- 21:16:38 [sylvaing]
- though the David Simon miniseries that preceded The Wire was pretty darn good too
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