16:29:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
16:29:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/15-css-irc
16:29:54 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:57:18 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:57:25 <Zakim> +??P41
16:57:31 <glazou> Zakim, ??P41 is me
16:57:31 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
16:57:51 <shepazu> Zakim, code?
16:57:55 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), shepazu
16:58:18 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
16:59:21 <Zakim> + +1.206.550.aaaa
17:00:03 <danielweck> danielweck has joined #css
17:00:11 <stearns> zakim, aaaa is me
17:00:12 <Zakim> +Bert
17:00:17 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
17:00:41 <arronei> arronei has joined #css
17:00:46 <Zakim> +??P53
17:00:49 <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P53
17:00:54 <Zakim> +stearns; got it
17:00:56 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:00:56 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
17:01:08 <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
17:01:29 <Zakim> +glenn
17:01:35 <glazou> Zakim, ??53 is florianr 
17:01:44 <krit> krit has joined #css
17:02:03 <Zakim> +florianr; got it
17:02:08 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:02:16 <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
17:02:23 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_ has joined #css
17:02:28 <Zakim> +hober; got it
17:02:28 <krit> Zakim, who's here?
17:02:32 <Bert> zakim, bert also has fantasai
17:02:35 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
17:02:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:02:39 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:02:49 <glazou> Zakim, WAKE UP
17:02:56 <danielweck> Zakim, where are you?
17:03:08 <Zakim> +??P18
17:03:08 <TabAtkins_> I'll be in momentarily.
17:03:10 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '??53'
17:03:20 <Zakim> +plinss
17:03:21 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P18 is me
17:03:21 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
17:03:26 <smfr> Zakim, Apple has me
17:03:42 <krit> +Present krit
17:03:45 <dstorey> dstorey has joined #css
17:03:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, stearns, Bert, florianr, [Apple], glenn, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], [Microsoft.a], ??P18, plinss
17:04:01 <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
17:04:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, stearns, Bert, florianr, [Apple], glenn, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], [Microsoft.a], ??P18, plinss
17:04:16 <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
17:04:20 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
17:04:32 <krit> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
17:04:32 <Zakim> +[Apple.a]
17:04:43 <Zakim> +??P75
17:04:46 <smfr> Zakim, [Apple.a] is me
17:04:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'WAKE UP', glazou
17:04:53 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P18 is me
17:04:56 <danielweck> (trying again)
17:05:00 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, danielweck.
17:05:06 <Zakim> + +93550aabb
17:05:22 <antonp> Zakim, aabb is me
17:05:24 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
17:05:38 <Zakim> +smfr; got it
17:05:47 <fantasai> Scribe: fantasai
17:05:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see dstorey, ChrisL, TabAtkins_, krit, smfr, arronei, antonp, danielweck, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kojiishi, glenn, nimbu, SimonSapin, florianr, tantek_, drublic, tantek,
17:06:03 <Zakim> ... karl, arronei_, leaverou, jdaggett, Bert, Hixie, shepazu, stearns, ed, alexmog, shans_away, vhardy, sylvaing_away, plinss, krijnh, macpherson, trackbot, hober, gsnedders,
17:06:04 <fantasai> glazou: Any extra items for today?
17:06:06 <Zakim> ... paul___irish, CSSWG_LogBot, fantasai
17:06:06 <TabAtkins_> Bleh, took enough tries.
17:06:11 <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_ 
17:06:20 <fantasai> Florian: Not sure howcome is here today; if not, shouldn't talk about GCPM
17:06:30 <Zakim> +krit; got it
17:06:34 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I noted that you posted clarifications about the selectors4 requests.
17:06:38 <Zakim> + +1.415.871.aacc
17:06:41 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Let's move to the first item on our agenda today.
17:06:45 <TabAtkins_> glazou: It's about -webkit- prefix.
17:06:46 <Zakim> +smfr; got it
17:06:53 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I had a lot of chats between the first day and yesterday.
17:06:55 <Zakim> I already had ??P18 as danielweck, danielweck
17:06:59 <tantek> Zakim, aacc is tantek
17:06:59 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
17:07:01 <TabAtkins_> glazou: That ended with the proposal I made to Brendan.
17:07:09 <TabAtkins_> glazou: A compromise about what we could do in this WG.
17:07:12 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Brendan Eich.
17:07:23 <TabAtkins_> glazou: This was discussed between Brendana nd Jeff Jaffe on Monday.
17:07:26 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
17:07:34 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I don't know the details, but apparently the compromise goes in the right direction.
17:07:40 <TabAtkins_> glazou: So we need to discuss and find a plan here.
17:07:43 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aadd
17:07:56 <TabAtkins_> glazou: If it's so urgent that the three browser vendors raised in Monday, we need to move forward quickly.
17:08:00 <smfr> linky please
17:08:01 <Zakim> + +1.206.552.aaee
17:08:05 <Zakim> +tantek; got it
17:08:19 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
17:08:31 <florianr> http://www.w3.org/mid/4F391911.307@disruptive-innovations.com
17:08:37 <tantek> to be clear - I was at that meeting with Jeff Jaffe and Brendan on Monday 
17:08:50 <danielweck> Zakim has kicked me out
17:08:54 <danielweck> unable to join-in
17:09:05 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
17:09:08 <TabAtkins_> glazou: That's not a decision, it's a proposal to discuss.
17:09:15 <TabAtkins_> glazou: It merely seemed reasonable at the time I wrote it.
17:09:21 <dbaron> I'm getting a busy signal dialing Zakim
17:09:24 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I'd like to discuss this, and if you have counterproposals, discuss those.
17:09:32 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
17:09:35 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: What's the connection between this and what Brendan and Jeff discussed?
17:09:37 <TabAtkins_> glazou: No idea.
17:09:45 <danielweck> Zakim says: "enable to take your call, try again later"
17:09:45 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #css
17:09:46 <TabAtkins_> tantek: I was at the meeting.  We discussed daniel's proposal.
17:09:56 <TabAtkins_> tantek: I don't think anything new came out of that; it was just Jeff gaining a broder understanding.
17:10:12 <TabAtkins_> tantek: The key point is the one I made in email - we don't have a specific list yet, and I don't think anyone has yet.
17:10:20 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
17:10:30 <TabAtkins_> florianr: I don't think anyone has a final list, but we should be able to give a top-5 list or something.
17:10:53 <TabAtkins_> tantek: I can put it in a more coarse-grained fashion. We're still analyzing our data, and we don't have specific properties to propose yet.
17:10:57 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
17:11:13 <TabAtkins_> tantek: It would be very helpful for us and the group if certain specs were made to advance more quickly.
17:11:18 <TabAtkins_> tantek: Because the syntax is stable.
17:11:24 <TabAtkins_> florianr: I have a questiona bout your studies.
17:11:41 <TabAtkins_> florianr: It seems that with even a little bit of study, it seems easy to come up with a simple list of stuff applicable everywhere.
17:11:47 <TabAtkins_> florianr: So what info are you looking for?
17:12:00 <TabAtkins_> tantek: We also find that when -webkit-border-radius is used, there's also the other prefixes or unprefixed.
17:12:12 <TabAtkins_> tantek: So the result is, how much difference would it amek to implement -webkit-border-radius?
17:12:20 <TabAtkins_> tantek: if the answer is "not that much difference", it's not worth doing.
17:12:29 <TabAtkins_> tantek: So it's the question of what it's used with.
17:12:35 <TabAtkins_> tantek: If we can avoid supproting -webkit-, great.
17:13:06 <TabAtkins_> tantek: When we do find a property that seems to be -webkit- prefixed only, the question is:
17:13:12 <TabAtkins_> tantek: Is it affecting the user, and hwo much?
17:13:24 <TabAtkins_> tantek: And that's a hard question to answer without manually looking at the site.
17:13:33 <TabAtkins_> tantek: If you can't tell the difference, what's the point of implementing it?
17:13:42 <TabAtkins_> tantek: So we're trying to be conservative here.
17:14:05 <TabAtkins_> tantek: The coarse data alone, though, provides us enough clues to reccommend to the WG which specs to advance faster.
17:14:28 <TabAtkins_> florianr: I've done some studies here.  I don't think there as details as yours, but I've looked for whether -webkit- is used with or without something else that opera supports.
17:14:34 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Can you share this data?
17:14:39 <TabAtkins_> florianr: I've sent it to the private list.
17:14:47 <florianr> http://www.w3.org/mid/op.v9n5gsan4p7avi@localhost.localdomain
17:15:27 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Are you making a big difference between border-radius, whichi is specified and implemented everywhere, and between properties that are more experiemental, have little or no spec, and not implemented anywhere else.
17:16:09 <TabAtkins_> glazou: For the former, the decision to impelment -webkit- is only in your hands. There's nothing we can do on the standards side.
17:16:17 <TabAtkins_> glazou: For the latter, we need more specs, we need faster movement. 
17:16:32 <TabAtkins_> florianr: There's a third case,w hich is important - things that are on progress, but not prefixed yet.
17:16:39 <Zakim> -danielweck
17:16:44 <TabAtkins_> glazou: For the second case, I think we have a problem. Most of them come from Apple.
17:16:53 <TabAtkins_> glazou: The current specs available online are really light, to say the least.
17:16:59 <TabAtkins_> florianr: Like text-size-adjust?
17:17:03 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Not only that, but yes.
17:17:09 <dbaron> did florianr say "not unprefixed yet" rather than "not prefixed yet"?
17:17:11 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I think the definition is underspecified, to say the least.
17:17:27 <TabAtkins_> florianr: From my data, text-size-adjust comes first among things without a spec, -webkit-appearance is next.
17:17:37 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: When you crawl, what UA string are you using?
17:17:45 <TabAtkins_> florianr: wget's UA string.
17:17:56 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: On the mobile web, you get very different content based on the UA string.
17:18:10 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: If you pretend to be webkit, the results are completely different.
17:18:19 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: So we're trying to figure out which method to use to report the numbers.
17:18:41 <smfr> [time check: 2 mins left on this issue; what are we trying to achieve?]
17:18:45 <TabAtkins_> florianr: I've seen people doing mroe sophisticated analysis, and the numbers were higher if they spoofed as webkit, but the ordering was pretty similar to my method.
17:18:59 <TabAtkins_> glazou: So, what are we going to do *now*?
17:19:14 <TabAtkins_> glazou: We need specs for the underspecified properties, and we need analysis for the ones that need to go faster.
17:19:26 <TabAtkins_> tantek: I think there are 3 specs that the WG needs to publish as LC asap.
17:19:37 <TabAtkins_> tantek: And ocnsider dropping prefixes early since the syntax is stable.
17:19:44 <TabAtkins_> tantek: Transforms, Transitions, and Animations.
17:19:48 <TabAtkins_> glazou: 2d or 3d?
17:19:52 <TabAtkins_> tantek: I think 2d.
17:19:58 <Zakim> -smfr
17:19:59 <TabAtkins_> tantek: Based on the wG discussion to split 2d and 3d.
17:20:12 <smfr> oops
17:20:24 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I think we agreed to try and advance them together, because it would be more work to pull them apart.
17:20:31 <dbaron> smfr, you're not going to be able to dial in again, either
17:20:44 <smfr> just did
17:20:46 <Zakim> +[Apple.a]
17:20:53 <TabAtkins_> florianr: going back to the things without a spec, I thinkw e're counting on webkit people to submit a spec for -webkit-text-size-adjust.
17:21:06 <TabAtkins_> florianr: And appearance was dropped from CSS3 UI with the intent to be in CSS4 UI.
17:21:12 <dbaron> That said, Zakim is actually *ringing* now, which is better than before.
17:21:13 <TabAtkins_> florianr: Analysis suggests it's being used.
17:21:36 <dbaron> I don't think appearance was dropped with intent to be in css4-ui.
17:21:38 <TabAtkins_> tantek: I agree that it would be good to see proposals from Webkit about text-size-adjust, at least a simple draft.
17:21:42 <dbaron> I think it was dropped because some people objected to the principle.
17:22:10 <TabAtkins_> tantek: On appearance, based on my prop there's very little interop. Most seem to be using it for appearance:none. But I don't think there was much actual impact of using it.
17:22:21 <TabAtkins_> tantek: So I thinkt he highest impact is text-size-adjust and the three specs I mentioned.
17:22:31 <TabAtkins_> glazou: So let's focus on those three specs and text-size-adjust.
17:22:38 <TabAtkins_> glazou: It seems that the syntax is not going to change.
17:22:49 <TabAtkins_> glazou: So can we unprefix and move them forward fast?
17:22:59 <TabAtkins_> smfr: At the f2f we decided *not* to split the transforms specs.
17:23:23 <dbaron> I think we should just try to move all of transforms forward quickly.
17:23:24 <TabAtkins_> smfr: And we have some demands for lTransforms syntax changes.
17:23:43 <fantasai> Tab: Let's move transforms forward. We can adjust syntax later.
17:23:52 <dbaron> We should reject the demands for syntax changes
17:24:31 <TabAtkins_> glazou: So do we agree to move the Transforms spec without the syntax change?
17:24:42 <TabAtkins_> smfr: Are yout alking about combiend 2d/3d/svg transforms spec?
17:24:50 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Yes.
17:25:03 <TabAtkins_> smfr: Are we going to wait for feedback from SVg, or define some conformance classes?
17:25:33 <TabAtkins_> tantek: Has anyone shipped support for the new features?
17:25:34 <TabAtkins_> smfr: No.
17:26:22 <TabAtkins_> Dirk: The only difference is the three argument rotate(), so I don't think it makes sense to split from SVG right now.
17:26:26 <glenn> presumably transforms will go to LCWD before CR, yes?
17:26:33 <dbaron> I think the three argument rotate() should be reverted.
17:26:36 <ChrisL> In the context of a sepc jointly edited by SVG and CSS folks, how are you "waiting for feedback" from SVG
17:26:43 <fantasai> glenn, yes, that's required
17:26:46 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
17:26:47 <TabAtkins_> tantek: I'm not opposed to new things in the future, but I think it should be at minimum split into a separate WD and published later.
17:26:49 <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
17:26:49 <Zakim> +??P7
17:26:50 <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
17:26:56 <TabAtkins_> tantek: Or marked it as at-risk and keep moving, knowing it might not exit CR.
17:27:04 <kojiishi> zakim, ??p7 is me
17:27:04 <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
17:27:12 <TabAtkins_> smfr: The other issue is that we can't drop prefixes on 2d unless we start prefixing the 3d functions.
17:27:17 <TabAtkins_> smfr: Which will be confusing for authors.
17:27:32 <TabAtkins_> tantek: Why is it difficult if we have interop on 2d?
17:27:35 <ChrisL> all the options are confusing to authors in some way
17:27:39 <TabAtkins_> florianr: The prefixes are on the property, not the value.
17:27:46 <ChrisL> prefixing 3d seems the least confusing option
17:28:10 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I think the 3d functions are already too spread on the web to worry about it.
17:28:16 <fantasai> florianr: so to unprefix 2d only, you'd have to prefix the 3d functions
17:28:24 <fantasai> florianr: which would be confusing for authors
17:28:31 <Zakim> +ChrisL
17:29:15 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I would like a testsuite before we claim interop.
17:29:46 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Do ytou expect any lack of interop to affect the syntax?
17:29:54 <TabAtkins_> [unminuted talking over each other]
17:29:54 <ChrisL> +1 to tantek's proposal
17:30:03 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: It's just about splitting 2d/3d.
17:30:15 <smfr> is there anything new here that we didn't discuss at the F2F?
17:30:22 <ChrisL> tantek proposes moving to lcwd asap and dropping prefixes at lcwd for this spec
17:30:28 <TabAtkins_> tantek: I'm not talking about exitting CR right now, just unprefixing.
17:30:51 <Bert> q+ fantasai
17:31:20 <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aaff
17:31:22 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Are we making an exception to the unprefixing rule?
17:31:24 <TabAtkins_> tantek: Yes.
17:31:54 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Last week we discussed de facto vs de jure standards. These are de facto standards already.
17:32:39 <TabAtkins_> [bankrupcty]
17:33:24 <dbaron> sylvain: We have rules for dropping prefixes and I'm asking why we're making an exception?
17:33:33 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Back to the discussion. Transform, Transitions, Animations. Drop prefixes?
17:33:42 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Can we poll on this? Discussion seems to be going nowhere.
17:33:50 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:33:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, stearns, Bert, florianr, [Apple], glenn, [Microsoft], krit, [Microsoft.a], plinss, ??P75, antonp, tantek, +1.650.253.aadd, +1.206.552.aaee, [Apple.a],
17:33:54 <Zakim> ... dbaron, kojiishi, ChrisL, howcome
17:33:54 <Zakim> [Apple] has smfr
17:33:54 <Zakim> Bert has Bert, fantasai
17:34:07 <TabAtkins_> Poll options: 
17:34:07 <nimbu> Zakim, aaee is me
17:34:07 <Zakim> +nimbu; got it
17:34:11 <hober> Zakim, Apple.a has me
17:34:11 <Zakim> +hober; got it
17:34:16 <TabAtkins_> 1) Move Transforms/Transitions/Animations to LC and allow unprefixing.
17:34:18 <Rossen> Zakim, Microsoft.a is me
17:34:18 <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
17:34:42 <TabAtkins_> 2) No exception, just try to move the specs fast.
17:35:22 <fantasai> If we're making an exception to the process, we should document that in the Snapshot *as an exception*
17:35:29 <TabAtkins_> glazou: 1
17:35:33 <ChrisL> chris option 1
17:35:35 <glenn> glenn: 2
17:35:38 <TabAtkins_> astearns: 1
17:35:47 <fantasai> bert: 2
17:35:54 <TabAtkins_> florianr: 1
17:36:28 <TabAtkins_> dirk: Does option 1 mean no more syntax changes?
17:36:32 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Yes.
17:36:34 <TabAtkins_> smfr: 2
17:36:46 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: 2
17:36:55 <nimbu> nimbu: 1
17:37:01 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Torn, but 2.
17:37:04 <TabAtkins_> antonp: 2
17:37:07 <TabAtkins_> tantek: 1
17:37:07 <Rossen> Rossen: 2
17:37:13 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: 1
17:37:14 <howcome> howcome: 1
17:37:17 <Zakim> -Rossen
17:37:18 <dbaron> dbaron: 1
17:37:21 <hober> hober: 2
17:37:22 <sylvaing> arronei: 2
17:37:22 <krit> krit: 2
17:37:25 <jet> jet has joined #CSS
17:37:35 <TabAtkins_> davidStorey: 1
17:37:45 <fantasai> :)
17:37:58 <sylvaing> -webkit-3?
17:38:05 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:38:15 <Rossen> Zakim, Microsoft.a is me
17:38:15 <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
17:39:06 <ChrisL> q+
17:39:07 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: My preference woudl be to list the transforms functions we're trying to unprefix in the Exceptions clause, and work on the spec knowing that we are syntax-constrained.
17:39:25 <dbaron> s/Exceptions clause/exceptions clause in the snapshot/
17:39:40 <ChrisL> fantasia is voting for a modified 1 which may allow syntax changes f there are issues
17:39:49 <ChrisL> ... to avoid multiple last calls
17:39:54 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
17:40:13 <ChrisL> I agree with fantasai
17:40:36 <dbaron> Yes, I'm happier with fantasai's modified (1) than with the original (1).
17:40:39 <Bert> (I think 3 is like 1, except that we explicitly reserve (and warn!) the right to change the syntax again.)
17:40:55 <ChrisL> 3) move to LCWD, try to freeze syntax, unprefix, but still correct issues if they arise in LCWD
17:41:11 <fantasai> fantasai: I don't agree with ignoring the issues and just pushing to CR. I also don't think any syntax change should be pushed to L4, because as sylvain says they need to be fixed now if at all.
17:41:40 <tantek> fantasai - please don't strawman - no one is just pushing to CR
17:42:01 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I don't think the process is blocking us here.
17:42:16 <fantasai> fantasai: If people want to cycle through mutliple LCs because they feel that somehow makes it better, fine
17:42:19 <TabAtkins_> tantek: In practice it is rarely a few weeks from first LC to CR.
17:42:51 <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: Often it takes way longer to process results.
17:43:09 <TabAtkins_> tantek: How long a LC do you want, Sylvain?
17:43:27 <TabAtkins_> tantek: So we have a proposal for, what, 8 weeks LC?
17:43:35 <glenn> does that include time for processing? 8wks seems long for comment period
17:43:57 <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: Seems like 8 weeks for dealing with issues, not actually the comment/review period.
17:44:04 <glenn> 3-4 weeks should be enough for comments...
17:44:13 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I think 3 for review, 8 for dealing seems fine.
17:44:37 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I think we can realistically take this to CR in 2-3 months. If we don't think it's doable, what are we doing dropping prefixes?
17:44:48 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I think that in some cases, the specs are in bad shape where impls interop.
17:45:01 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Not saying everything, but several cases where we have interop but the spec doesn't describe it properly.
17:45:04 <TabAtkins_> smfr: Can you give an example.
17:45:07 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Not off my head.
17:45:16 <TabAtkins_> tantek: When that happened in css2.1, we just changed the spec.
17:45:27 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I'm not even saying the spec is different, but rather that it's unclear.
17:45:36 <TabAtkins_> glenn: And that should be fast.
17:45:55 <TabAtkins_> s/glenn/glazou/
17:45:56 <dbaron> (Though I'm thinking of some aspects of the model for animations.)
17:46:27 <Rossen> text-size-adjust is a good example of what dbaron just said
17:46:45 <TabAtkins_> tantek: So, Sylvain, you want to drop prefixes in 11 weeks, not tomorrow, is that right?
17:46:49 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I think so, yeah.
17:47:19 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I don't want to make precedents for anything.
17:47:25 <Ms2ger> Ms2ger has joined #css
17:47:27 <glenn> where is "unprefixing rule" documented?
17:47:41 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS/
17:47:58 <TabAtkins_> tantek: No precedent, this is an exception.
17:48:06 <smfr> glenn: the green text:http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS/#experimental
17:48:18 <glenn> tnx
17:48:32 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: We ahve a spec with four impls, but there hasn't been an urgency.
17:49:12 <glazou> hober: I think this is top priority
17:49:41 <TabAtkins_> [more unminuted discussion, arggggg]
17:50:13 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I suggest the 3 browser vendors that want to unprefix discuss amongst themselves.
17:50:36 <ChrisL> q?
17:50:45 <TabAtkins_> glazou: No consensus is emerging, despite all the discussion that has already happened.
17:50:51 <TabAtkins_> glazou: We are *moving on*.
17:51:16 <tantek> q+
17:51:17 <dbaron> ack ChrisL
17:51:17 <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: Since we don't have consensus on dropping prefixes, I think the chair should discuss moving LC forward.
17:51:22 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Agreed.
17:51:30 <fantasai> [unminuted discussion consisted of Sylvain arguing for just going through with the process rather than making an exception, and others arguing for making the exception]
17:51:31 <TabAtkins_> glazou: So what are we going to do to address the issue asap.
17:51:32 <Bert> q- fan
17:51:45 <TabAtkins_> smfr: It seems we need to split into 3 and 4, where the new SVG stuff goes into level 4.
17:51:52 <TabAtkins_> smfr: With the remaining issue being 3d transforms.
17:52:19 <fantasai> [other unminuted discussion about daniel ruling that there is no consensus, and we should therefore dedicate our time to solving the issues and moving the spec forward]
17:52:21 <TabAtkins_> tantek: I agree with smfr.  I think that the problem here is not being properly understood. We'd like to implement unprefixed at the same time.
17:52:54 <dbaron> ack tantek
17:52:58 <TabAtkins_> tantek: Let me make it clear. If the WG cannot unprefix quickly, we (firefox) will implement -webkit- prefixes.
17:53:18 <TabAtkins_> Dirk: Because of level 3/4 splitting, I don't think it makes sense to do the SVG stuff in two levels.
17:53:38 <TabAtkins_> Dirk: I don't think SVG is blocking 2d transforms, maybe 3d transforms.
17:53:54 <glenn> wouldn't it be better to go to a common prefix rather than reimplementing vendor specific prefixes? e.g., instead of simply dropping rule, encourage all vendors to support -w3-wd-... or some such?
17:53:55 <sylvaing> i understand webkit-only properties being an issue for mobile; transforms is not in that category imo
17:54:00 <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: We know what the differences are between SVG and CSS transforms.
17:54:46 <TabAtkins_> tantek: For transitions and animations, you do?
17:55:02 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: No, I don't think any of those are killer.
17:55:24 <dbaron> TabAtkins: sylvain, that's different from what you said at the f2f
17:55:30 <dbaron> sylvain: No, it's consistent.
17:55:41 <fantasai> Sylvain said that -webkit-was a problem. He did not say that transforms was a problem.
17:55:51 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I don't think 3 months will make a difference. I want to prioritize and move on.
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17:56:29 <TabAtkins_> tantek: If the option is between -webkit- and unprefixed, or -webkit- and nothign else, I prefer the first option. But delaying unprefixed will not delay the decision we're making.
17:56:49 <TabAtkins_> florianr: This seems USELESS to continue discussing, since this is not working here.
17:57:13 <glenn> would prefer a common w3c sanctioned prefix over no prefix
17:57:13 <tantek> I want to hear from everyone who voted (2), what issues do you see as blocking LC for those 3 specs?
17:57:14 <TabAtkins_> glenn: Moz, MS, Opera, discuss together next week and bring a COMMON position to the WG.
17:57:19 <TabAtkins_> s/glenn/glazou/
17:57:34 <TabAtkins_> glazou: If we end up with multiple positions in our call next week, this is a *waste of our time*.
17:57:41 <TabAtkins_> glazou: So start that immediately in the mailing list.
17:57:48 <TabAtkins_> glazou: tantek, can we try that?
17:58:15 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Today we came for discussion, and I thought the 3 browser vendors had a common position.  Apparently that's not the case.
17:58:34 <TabAtkins_> glazou: So please get your positions together and bring it to the group, so we don't waste our time again.
17:58:39 <TabAtkins_> tantek: I've put our position on the table.
17:58:45 <TabAtkins_> tantek: I think the onus is on the objectors.
17:58:57 <glazou> s/onus/burden
17:59:03 <TabAtkins_> tantek: Anyone who objects, please bring reasons for why they're opposing unprefixing, or why they're opposing LC.
18:00:15 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I suggest we adjourn on this failure status, and we work on the issues RIGHT NOW in the mailing list.
18:00:28 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I can't declare any consuses with a 9-8 vote.
18:00:47 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:00:49 <Zakim> -glenn
18:00:50 <Zakim> -antonp
18:00:51 <Zakim> -dbaron
18:00:53 <Zakim> -krit
18:00:54 <Zakim> -kojiishi
18:00:54 <Zakim> -[Apple.a]
18:00:55 <antonp> antonp has left #css
18:00:56 <Zakim> -??P75
18:00:56 <Zakim> - +1.650.253.aadd
18:00:58 <Zakim> -Rossen
18:00:59 <Zakim> -[Apple]
18:01:01 <Zakim> -Bert
18:01:03 <Zakim> -tantek
18:01:05 <Zakim> -florianr
18:01:05 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
18:01:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, stearns, plinss, nimbu, ChrisL, howcome
18:01:09 <Zakim> -howcome
18:01:11 <Zakim> -stearns
18:01:20 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
18:01:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, plinss, nimbu, ChrisL
18:01:34 <nimbu> what I am out of phone
18:01:35 <nimbu> :/
18:01:41 <ChrisL> zakim, drop nimbu
18:01:43 <Zakim> nimbu is being disconnected
18:01:43 <Zakim> -nimbu
18:01:47 <smfr> smfr has left #css
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18:02:52 <TabAtkins_> tantek: Yes, please.
18:02:56 <TabAtkins_> Also: OMG
18:03:49 <stearns> tantek: if it goes too slowly and you end up implementing -webkit-, will you drop -webkit- once the process finally gets to the unprefixing state?
18:03:54 <tantek> ChrisL - no, the people that objected to (1) stopped that.
18:04:05 <tantek> stearns - unknown
18:04:16 <fantasai> tantek: Then you needed another option: Publish LCWD now, don't drop prefixes until CR
18:04:23 <tantek> fantasai - sure, if we have to publish multiple last calls, so be it.
18:04:44 <tantek> no, we need to drop prefixes as part of the exception clause for the snapshot as part of this
18:05:12 <ChrisL> tantek no. options 1 and 2 both involved moving to lcwd. the only difference was whether prefixes got dropped at lc or at cr
18:05:12 <fantasai> tantek: we spent the entire telecon arguing about that, and got no progress on moving to LC as a result
18:05:51 <tantek> ChrisL - no such promise was made in 2
18:05:56 <tantek> from IRC: 2) No exception, just try to move the specs fast
18:06:01 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
18:06:20 <glazou> tantek: see query
18:06:58 <tantek> fantasai - I've never had much hope for telcon productivity in general, so unfortunately I'm not that surprised.
18:11:43 <tantek> ChrisL - I'm still planning on asking to move Transforms, Transitions, Animations to LC ASAP.
18:11:50 <tantek> regardless of prefix discussions
18:12:03 <tantek> btw
18:12:34 <florianr> Forgive me being a noob, but how does it help to move a spec to LC with known issues, if we don't drop prefixes as well?
18:12:48 <howcome> howcome has left #css
18:12:52 <tantek> florianr - it helps force resolution of issues more quickly
18:13:00 <tantek> which then tends to remove objections to drop prefixes
18:13:28 <Zakim> -glazou
18:13:29 <Zakim> -ChrisL
18:13:33 <Zakim> -plinss
18:13:34 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:13:34 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, Doug_Schepers, +1.206.550.aaaa, Bert, stearns, glenn, florianr, [Microsoft], hober, plinss, fantasai, [Apple], +93550aabb, danielweck, smfr, krit,
18:13:34 <Zakim> ... +1.415.871.aacc, antonp, +1.650.253.aadd, +1.206.552.aaee, tantek, dbaron, kojiishi, ChrisL, +47.21.65.aaff, howcome, nimbu, Rossen
18:13:53 <fantasai> tantek: That can be done with less process overhead by addressing issues at a high priority while implementing high-fidelity tracking
18:14:10 <fantasai> tantek: The advantage of LC is that it pushes people to report their issues
18:14:15 <fantasai> tantek: and review if they haven't yet
18:14:46 <tantek> fantasai - in practice I don't believe that. In practice going to LC is what causes more quick reporting/addressing of issues.
18:14:51 <fantasai> tantek: The disadvantage is that when you make significant changes as a result of feedback, you have to recycle through LC, which imposes 3-week minimum
18:15:01 <tantek> fine with going thru LC again
18:15:12 <tantek> we already agreed it would take 8 weeks *after* LC
18:15:18 <tantek> so that gives us 2 more LC cycles :P
18:15:23 <fantasai> heh
18:15:24 <tantek> 3 if we push to 9 weeks
18:15:32 <tantek> <-- can do division
18:15:40 <tantek> btw, LOTS of people have been complaining that the problem with the -webkit- prefixes being established / mobile web monoculture is that the CSSWG has not moved fast enough - e.g. @stubbornella.
18:15:52 <tantek> today's telcon was clear support of that hypothesis
18:15:59 <tantek> that it's the CSSWG's fault for moving too slowly.
18:16:21 <fantasai> tantek: There were multiple telecons last December where daniel cancelled or closed early because nobody brought any issues forward for WG resolution
18:16:32 <fantasai> tantek: Transforms issues could have been addressed during that time
18:16:37 <fantasai> tantek: Why were they not addressed?
18:16:44 <tantek> because it wasn't in LC
18:16:48 <tantek> LC forces the resolutions
18:16:59 <glazou> tantek: s/CSSWG/a few members/
18:17:01 <glazou> please
18:17:02 <fantasai> tantek: No it doesn't, the editor bringing up the issues to the WG does.
18:17:07 <tantek> glazou - that's not what people see
18:17:13 <glazou> uuuuh ?????
18:17:13 <tantek> they see lack of consensus
18:17:17 <glazou> and
18:17:18 <glazou> ?
18:17:18 <tantek> they see process
18:17:22 <tantek> etc.
18:17:27 <glazou> we should be dictators ???
18:17:28 <fantasai> tantek: If the spec is in LC, and the editor is MIA, nothing moves.
18:17:28 <tantek> they see objection without providing reasons
18:17:31 <florianr> I'll have to side with fantasai here
18:17:39 <fantasai> tantek: Same as if the spec is in WD, and the editor is MIA, nothing moves.
18:17:40 <tantek> fantasai - I'm working on that editor MIA aspect
18:18:11 <fantasai> Missing In Action
18:18:13 <glazou> Missing iIn Action
18:18:57 <fantasai> In the last 9 months I do not recall any Transforms issues being addressed by the CSSWG except at F2Fs.
18:19:48 <glazou> nobody ever brought that as agenda item
18:19:49 <glazou> ever
18:19:51 <fantasai> How can you make fast progress with that?
18:19:54 <glazou> and we kept asking
18:19:56 <fantasai> Exactly.
18:20:04 <glazou> so seen from peter and I, it was NOT urgent
18:20:18 <glazou> we have no brain scanners
18:20:25 <glazou> we deal with what we see
18:20:30 <glazou> and the requests we get
18:20:49 <glazou> so I am _extremely_ upset and depressed to read some considered it's WG fault
18:20:51 <glazou> it is NOT
18:20:56 <glazou> name the guilty ones: MEMBERS
18:21:11 <glazou> we do what the MEMBERS want here
18:21:16 <glazou> always
18:21:31 <glazou> anyway, I have to go
18:21:37 <florianr> Here is a (perhaps naive) proposal. The chairs should make sure to nag members until each document that has reach FPWD or later has at least two editors from a different member
18:21:39 <glazou> hope my kids will be in better shape than this WG
18:21:41 <glazou> bye
18:21:49 <florianr> just a second glazou
18:21:54 <glazou> not more
18:21:58 <florianr> what do you think of what I said above
18:22:14 <glazou> in theory, nice ; in practice that's another story
18:22:23 <glazou> members DO resist to such proposals
18:22:31 <glazou> and that's not WG's responsibility but theirs
18:22:46 <glazou> right
18:22:50 <florianr> of course not
18:22:55 <glazou> or an editor that disappears during six months
18:22:59 <glazou> or more
18:23:07 <glazou> nothing the chairs can do there
18:23:16 <glazou> if the members don't jump on it
18:23:18 <fantasai> but it might be nice to point it out as a risk to progress when a spec's editor list is insufficiently diverse
18:23:24 <glazou> if that's urgent, they should act !
18:23:41 <glazou> I really need to go, and I killed my evening enough for today
18:23:42 <glazou> bye
18:23:47 <florianr> bye
18:25:33 <hober> fantasai: in the last 9 months many transforms bugs have been resolved in bugzilla & the spec. so i'm not sure what you mean when you say that that's only happened at f2fs
18:27:33 <nimbu> i think fantasai means it doesnt get discussed in teleconfs
18:27:39 <fantasai> yeah
18:31:15 <dbaron> it doesn't need to get discussed in telecons to make progress
18:31:18 <dbaron> things can happen via email
18:31:41 <dbaron> it gives group members a distorted image of where progress is being made, though
18:31:53 <fantasai> but if there are issues blocked on WG resolution, they should be brought up
18:32:08 <fantasai> and if there are issues being resolved and changes being made, there should be Working Drafts published
18:32:42 <fantasai> that both keeps the /TR page up-to-date, but also functions as a check point
18:33:06 <dbaron> if that were as easy as pressing a button, fine
18:33:26 <dbaron> but, frankly, it's not, so it takes time away from actually addressing issues
18:33:59 <Bert> It almost is: just ask for a decision to publish in the WG and then I'll do the rest...
18:55:21 <tantek> editors being MIA is a good reason to allow forking specs
18:55:43 <tantek> Bert - getting the WG to agreed to the decision to publish is the problem
18:55:56 <tantek> we couldn't even agree to take 3 relatively stable drafts to LC
18:56:05 <tantek> despite sense of urgency etc.
18:56:32 <tantek> actually, HTMLWG has it better in this way
18:56:46 <tantek> they automatically publish latest editor's drafts as heartbeat TR WDs
18:57:00 <tantek> unless there is a specific objection
18:57:08 <tantek> so in practice, people being MIA or unresponsive don't block TR WD publication
18:57:09 <Ms2ger> tantek, well yes, because they can't get consensus on anything but editorial issues
18:57:10 <fantasai> tantek: LC is different than WD
18:57:16 <tantek> perhaps we should switch to that model for CSSWG
18:57:27 <fantasai> tantek: WD would get few, if any, objections
18:57:28 <tantek> so that at least our public WDs wouldn't get 2+ years out of date :(
18:57:34 <fantasai> tantek: LC implies that all issues are resolved, and we know they're not
18:58:05 <fantasai> tantek: that's probably a good idea. Right now we rely on editor's to request publication, and they often dont.
18:58:14 <fantasai> tantek: btw, you're one of those
18:58:15 <fantasai> :)
18:58:15 <tantek> fantasai, http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-animations/ is almost 3 years old. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-animations/ was updated last week.
18:58:27 <fantasai> tantek: I *know*
18:58:28 <tantek> that's the problem I'm talking about
18:58:42 <tantek> HTMLWG heartbeat publishing of WDs is better in that regard
18:58:47 <tantek> we should just adopt that in the WG
18:58:50 <tantek> CSSWG
18:59:04 <fantasai> tantek: Makes less sense for us because we have so many specs
18:59:08 <tantek> no
18:59:13 <tantek> makes *more* sense
18:59:17 <fantasai> tantek: Publishing eveyrthing that hasn't changed is not useful
18:59:24 <tantek> too easy to miss a neglected spec
18:59:26 <Ms2ger> Someone could write an app to compare the last update of TR and ED specs, and send email to css-wg once the difference is more than three months
18:59:30 <tantek> fantasai - they HAVE changed
18:59:32 <tantek> that's the problem
18:59:34 <tantek> in the editor's draft
18:59:35 <tantek> duh
18:59:52 <tantek> Ms2ger - or we could make the chairs do it
18:59:52 <fantasai> tantek: YES, we should publish THE ONES THAT HAVE CHANGED, but not EVERYTHING
18:59:56 <tantek> the way the HTMLWG chairs do it
19:00:13 <tantek> fantasai - why bother with the difference?
19:00:18 <tantek> why are you making extra work?
19:00:25 <fantasai> tantek: because people rely on the date to know when the draft was last updated
19:00:27 <tantek> just publish updates for all of them
19:00:42 <fantasai> tantek: No, I refuse to agree with you.
19:00:42 <tantek> so they do for the editor's draft as well
19:00:53 <tantek> all that's happened is that TR has become irrelevant
19:00:56 <tantek> and people implemented ED now
19:01:04 <tantek> so you can either ignore that and be ok
19:01:06 <tantek> with it
19:01:09 <tantek> or try to salvage TR
19:01:13 <fantasai> *sigh*
19:01:17 <fantasai> you're ridiculous
19:01:23 <fantasai> and I am not discussing this anymore with you
19:01:28 <tantek> and with ad hominem I'm outta here
19:01:31 <tantek> try again tomorrow.
19:01:50 <fantasai> but I am going to dinner now
19:01:58 <Ms2ger> Heh
19:02:05 <Ms2ger> Enjoy dinner
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19:46:58 <TabAtkins_> plinss: I love you.
19:47:07 <plinss> :-)
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20:08:48 <shepazu> plinss: I love your gavel
20:09:12 <shepazu> THAT IS NOT A EUPHAMISM!!!!
20:09:22 <shepazu> an euphamism?
20:10:47 <TabAtkins_> It's spelled "stephen".
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20:48:34 <tpod> Plinss that video was pretty funny. And I've never watched The Wire either.
20:49:14 <tpod> BTW I've created issues pages for transforms, transitions, and animations on our wiki.
20:49:48 <Ms2ger> We've got those in bugzilla
20:56:49 <nimbu> tpod: you are missing something really really amazing
20:57:18 <nimbu> i may not evangelise html5 but I will evangelize The Wire
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20:59:42 <sylvaing> The Wire is effing awesome
21:01:06 <glenn> glenn has joined #css
21:04:39 <stearns> thirding on the Wire. Probably the best series ever broadcast on TV.
21:09:30 <nimbu> agreed
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21:15:25 <sylvaing> The Sopranos is also up there
21:16:38 <sylvaing> though the David Simon miniseries that preceded The Wire was pretty darn good too
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