IRC log of svg on 2012-02-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:59:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:59:50 [RRSAgent]
logging to
19:59:52 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:59:52 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
19:59:54 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:59:54 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
19:59:55 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:59:55 [trackbot]
Date: 09 February 2012
19:59:56 [heycam]
Zakim, code?
19:59:56 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, heycam
20:00:02 [Tav]
Tav has joined #svg
20:00:34 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM has now started
20:00:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aaaa
20:00:42 [krit]
20:00:52 [krit]
Zakim: help
20:01:37 [Zakim]
20:01:40 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P1i s me
20:01:40 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P1i s me', heycam
20:01:42 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
20:01:42 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
20:02:04 [Zakim]
20:02:12 [ed]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:02:12 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:02:14 [krit]
Zakim: +1.415.832.aaaa is me
20:02:37 [krit]
Zakim, +1.415.832.aaaa is me
20:02:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+1.415.832.aaaa is me', krit
20:03:05 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
20:03:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.415.832.aaaa, heycam, ed
20:03:12 [krit]
Zakim, +1.415.832.aaaa is me
20:03:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+1.415.832.aaaa is me', krit
20:03:18 [heycam]
Zakim, +1.415.832 is krit
20:03:18 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
20:03:33 [ed]
Zakim, who is noisy?
20:03:49 [Zakim]
ed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (53%), ed (24%)
20:04:47 [Zakim]
20:05:49 [heycam]
20:06:10 [ed]
scribeNick: ed
20:06:11 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
20:06:20 [ed]
Topic: SVG attributes to presentation attributes
20:07:23 [ed]
Dirk: Microsoft wanted to attend for this discussion too, we can postpone it
20:07:35 [ed]
Topic: SVG2 Requirements
20:08:08 [ed]
CM: the audio element
20:08:08 [heycam]
20:08:14 [Zakim]
20:08:30 [ed]
CM: we've already resolved for audio and video
20:08:37 [ed]
... just copy that to here
20:08:48 [ed]
ED: yes
20:09:41 [heycam]
20:09:46 [ed]
CM: initalvisibility
20:09:53 [cabanier]
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20:09:59 [ed]
... remind me, what's it for?
20:10:09 [ed]
... controlling visible before data is downloaded?
20:10:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.675.aabb
20:10:45 [ed]
... control media elements' display before the duration has stared
20:11:00 [ed]
... opera does this?
20:11:05 [ed]
ED: don't think so
20:11:14 [ed]
CM: seems simple
20:11:38 [heycam]
20:12:13 [cabanier]
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20:12:14 [ed]
"The 'initialVisibility' attribute applies to visual media elements ('video' and 'animation') and is used to control the visibility of the media object before its first active duration period has started."
20:12:30 [ed]
CM: to me it doesn't seem that useful to bring across,
20:13:09 [ed]
Dirk: do we have this in 1.1?
20:13:16 [ed]
CM: no, audio and video are not in 1.1
20:13:36 [ed]
ED: is there anything similar in html5 video?
20:13:49 [ed]
Dirk: i think so
20:14:46 [ed]
... there's a poster attribute
20:14:58 [krit]
20:15:02 [ed]
... and shows first frame of video if poster not available
20:15:23 [ed]
CM: don't think we need the initalVisibility attribute
20:15:30 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
20:15:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see krit, heycam, ed, Tav, Doug_Schepers, +1.206.675.aabb
20:15:35 [ed]
RESOLUTION: we will not add the initialVisibility attribute to SVG2
20:16:15 [cabanier]
Zakim, +1.206.675.aabb is me
20:16:15 [Zakim]
+cabanier; got it
20:16:25 [ed]
CM: next, Run-time Synchronization attributes
20:16:48 [krit]
20:17:04 [heycam]
20:17:18 [Zakim]
+ +61.2.980.5.aacc
20:17:20 [ed]
CM: cyril would probably have an opinion on this
20:17:49 [cyril]
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20:18:03 [cyril]
rrsagent, pointer
20:18:03 [RRSAgent]
20:18:04 [ed]
"These attributes are: syncBehavior, syncBehaviorDefault, syncTolerance, syncToleranceDefault and syncMaster."
20:18:26 [ed]
Dirk: we wanted to specify some means of synchronizing across media, yes?
20:18:35 [ed]
CC: yes i think it's useful, for subtitles e.g
20:18:45 [ed]
... to have them synchronized
20:18:56 [ed]
Dirk: subtitles for video and audio?
20:19:26 [ed]
CC: if you get subtitles from a different server, you can have an <animation> element and synchronize them with these attributes
20:19:44 [ed]
Dirk: there's also the track elements in html5, for subtitles
20:20:06 [ed]
... why wouldn't you want to bind it to a specific video element?
20:20:16 [ed]
CC: don't they have to be same-origin?
20:20:26 [ed]
... the track are in the same file, no?
20:20:44 [ed]
Dirk: no, they're separate files, not sure if they have cross-origin restrictions though
20:21:10 [ed]
CC: ok, yes you are right, track can point to anything
20:21:20 [ed]
CM: in html5 video, what kind of synch do you get?
20:21:25 [ed]
... can you control it at all?
20:21:35 [ed]
Dirk: no, they're always synched with the videop
20:22:16 [ed]
CC: if you have subtitles and video from different servers coming in at different rates, you can lock the synch with the runtime synch attributes in svg
20:22:51 [ed]
Dirk: video synch is a good usecase, but subtitles are always synched to the video
20:23:18 [ed]
CM: right, but if they're slow from one site, e.g to pause the video if the subtitles are not loaded quickly enough
20:23:32 [cyril]
zakim, who is here?
20:23:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see krit, heycam, ed, Tav, Doug_Schepers, cabanier, +61.2.980.5.aacc
20:23:33 [ed]
Dirk: I think this should be handled by html5
20:23:37 [ed]
DS: agree
20:23:43 [cyril]
zakim, +61 is me
20:23:43 [Zakim]
+cyril; got it
20:24:01 [ed]
... if subs aren't downloaded on time they're synched to the timeline when available, they shouldn't get out of synch
20:24:16 [ed]
... we shouldn't try to solve this if other groups are already working on this
20:24:38 [ed]
CM: what is the current state of synch of audio/video in html5
20:24:49 [ed]
... synch between two video elements e.g
20:24:58 [ed]
Dirk: you'll have to do that yourself with script
20:25:08 [ed]
DS: right, there's no way to do it otherwise in html5
20:25:17 [ed]
... don't think we should try to solve that in svg
20:25:48 [ed]
... keep this around, but don't try to solve this in svg exclusively
20:25:58 [ed]
... should be solved in the larger case, and svg shouldn't be different
20:26:35 [ed]
... otherwise it won't get implemented
20:26:52 [ed]
CM: agree with that concern
20:27:08 [ed]
DS: we say html5, but we're talking about the platform
20:27:37 [ed]
... we should keep the requirement, but push this upwards to something that needs to be solved for multimedia
20:28:01 [ed]
... have had discussions with Apple about synchronization
20:28:20 [ed]
... they should be in on the conversation
20:28:46 [ed]
... many media companies that wan't to solve this for the web
20:28:59 [ed]
CM: CC does this sound ok?
20:29:21 [ed]
CC: i would really want the feature, but I don't really care how it's done
20:29:56 [ed]
... you might want to synch with an animation
20:30:02 [ed]
... a motionpath
20:30:14 [ed]
... and then you want the motion to follow something in a video
20:30:26 [ed]
DS: we should push the requirement up...
20:30:35 [ed]
CC: so let the it be handled by another WG?
20:30:40 [ed]
DS: yes
20:30:59 [ed]
... maintain the requirement, but that we're fine resolving it higher up the web stack
20:32:12 [ed]
RESOLUTION: svg2 should have synchronization support from somewhere in the web platform
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20:34:03 [ed]
CM: the 'focusable' attribute
20:34:27 [cyril]
20:34:33 [ed]
topic: the 'focusable' attribute
20:35:18 [ed]
CM: so ED you said in your comment that 1.1 is unclear, and I agree
20:36:01 [ed]
... but i'm not sure about the attribute itself
20:36:08 [ed]
... who implements this?
20:36:20 [ed]
ED: Opera and IE9 I think
20:36:35 [ed]
CM: concern is that it's different from html5
20:37:09 [heycam]
20:37:09 [ed]
DS: svg got focusable from CSS UI
20:37:18 [ed]
... but it might have been dropped from CSS3 UI
20:37:25 [ed]
CM: no, still seems to be there
20:37:54 [ed]
... i'm fine with the requirement to be able to control focusability
20:38:19 [ed]
DS: have been pinged about this offlist by accessibility folks
20:38:32 [ed]
... since svg doesn't have focusable support
20:38:52 [ed]
... we should have a focusing mechanism that is compatible with the rest of the web platform
20:39:06 [ed]
... might be nice to have a css proeprty for if something is focusable or not
20:39:15 [ed]
... don't think we've solved the problem for the web platform
20:39:22 [ed]
... tab-index is doing two things at once
20:39:31 [ed]
... it's not a great solution for svg content
20:39:53 [ed]
... it's inadequate, our focusability solution is better
20:40:26 [ed]
... don't think we should simply follow what html does here, because it's not necessarily appropriate
20:40:40 [ed]
... but whatever we decide to do, should apply to the whole wbe platform
20:40:49 [ed]
CM: you can use tabindex=-1
20:40:59 [krit]
20:42:30 [ed]
Dirk: ok, this example shows focusable support, works in webkit and opera
20:42:58 [ed]
ED: yes, this uses implicit focusability (as defined in the spec, the default is focusable=auto)
20:43:12 [ed]
... the focusin/out event listeners make the elements focusable
20:44:17 [ed]
RESOLUTION: svg2 will have a solution for specifying focusability and navigation order, and be consistent with html
20:44:54 [ed]
CM: next one, navigation properties, we covered that by the previous resolution
20:45:27 [ed]
topic: focusHighlight attribute
20:45:56 [ed]
CM: i think this should be left up to content, like :focus or that sort of thing
20:46:10 [ed]
DS: i think you're right
20:46:26 [ed]
... don't know if we resolved about the outline property
20:46:36 [ed]
... we should resolve to have outline in svg as well
20:47:09 [ed]
CM: so to turn off the border for focus in html, you do something like :focus { outline: none }
20:47:11 [ed]
20:47:30 [ed]
DS: it should work like in html
20:48:16 [ed]
Dirk: is this related to hit testing in any way?
20:48:21 [ed]
CM: think that's separate
20:48:50 [ed]
DS: suggest that svg2 has a web-consistent focus highlight mechanism that relies on css
20:49:34 [ed]
ED: or with svg?
20:49:40 [Zakim]
20:50:21 [Zakim]
20:50:29 [ed]
DS: right, you can turn off default focus and get your own shape as showing the focus, e.g some special outline, then you could use script and css to hide and show those at the approproiate time
20:50:43 [ed]
... there should be an easy default solution (probably just an outline)
20:51:04 [ed]
CM: so let's agree to be able to control this
20:51:41 [ed]
RESOLUTION: svg2 will have a mechanism for controlling focus indication, consistent with css and html
20:52:59 [ed]
Topic: focus API
20:53:12 [ed]
dirk: we have a resolution to do this the html way
20:53:23 [ed]
CM: agree with ED's comment in the table
20:53:53 [ed]
RESOLUTION: svg2 will support an API to control focus consistent with html
20:54:07 [ed]
topic: key events
20:54:30 [ed]
Dirk: don't we have this already?
20:54:49 [ed]
CM: we should just depend on the right specs to get this, we shouldn't need to define this ourselves
20:55:00 [ed]
CC: put it becuase it's different in 1.2T and 1.1
20:55:15 [ed]
DS: right, because 1.2T added key events
20:55:39 [ed]
... but what 1.2T did was to subset what was in dom 3 events
20:56:03 [ed]
RESOLUTION: svg2 will have support for key events from DOM Level 3 Events
20:56:20 [ed]
topic: SVGRotate event
20:56:41 [ed]
CM: what did we decide with zoom and pan?
20:57:06 [ed]
CC: not sure why i put only svgrotate and not svgzoom and pan
20:57:25 [ed]
CM: this is just the event, if you change the dom property
20:57:32 [ed]
... or rotate in some other way
20:58:03 [ed]
... but if we decided to not have the zoom and pan gesture things, then maybe it doesn't make sense to have the event
20:58:14 [ed]
DS: i think we should have events for zoom, pan and rotate
20:58:36 [ed]
... adn that they are enableable individually
20:58:44 [ed]
... the zoomAndPan attribute should be split out
20:59:01 [ed]
CM: so we decided to not have a built in widget for zoom and pan
20:59:29 [ed]
CC: right, but we decided to make it easy to make widgets for zooming and panning
20:59:55 [ed]
... we decided to accept the API, but not require UA widgets for it
21:00:14 [ed]
DS: you could do it with the component model
21:00:51 [ed]
... to me it makes it more important that we expose these things (SVGRotate)
21:01:21 [ed]
CM: the zoomAndPan attribute is for contorlling the built-in functionality for zooming and panning
21:01:55 [ed]
... SVGRotate, is dispatched in tiny1.2 when you set currentRotate or when the UA rotates the svg
21:03:17 [ed]
DS: there might be UAs that allow rotating, or panning, or zooming... and you want to let content authors control whetehr they want this
21:03:43 [ed]
... nonscalingstroke
21:04:07 [ed]
... and transform=ref(svg)
21:04:49 [ed]
CM: you can prevent events from being dispatched
21:04:53 [ed]
DS: true
21:05:01 [ed]
CM: before or after things happen
21:05:18 [ed]
DS: that's scripted, but it's a reasonable solution
21:06:13 [ed]
CM: does Opera support currentRotate?
21:06:40 [ed]
ED: would have to check the code, the web support docs don't mention it
21:07:08 [ed]
CM: what are the events for the others? svgscroll?
21:07:31 [ed]
... yes, SVGScroll, SVGResize, and SVG???
21:07:46 [ed]
... don't liek them because they're different from the standard ones
21:07:53 [heycam]
21:07:55 [ed]
... but for rotate yes, there's no similar event
21:08:13 [ed]
... i don't mind having SVGRotate
21:08:25 [ed]
CC: can we resolve then?
21:08:32 [ed]
CM: everyone ok with this?
21:08:37 [ed]
21:08:56 [ed]
RESOLUTION: svg2 will have an SVGRotate event
21:10:24 [krit]
21:10:35 [ed]
topic: svg attributes to presentation attributes
21:11:14 [ed]
Dirk: presentation attributes use their own stylesheet, called it presentation attributes stylehseet
21:11:21 [ed]
... then inline stylesheet
21:11:29 [ed]
... external stylesheet, document stylesheet
21:11:41 [ed]
CC: inline is the style attribute?
21:11:45 [ed]
Dirk: yes
21:11:57 [ed]
... svgdom has the base and animated value
21:12:10 [ed]
... base value points to presentation attribute stylersheet
21:12:23 [ed]
... but animation congtrols the override stylesheet
21:12:36 [ed]
... so overrides computed style
21:13:20 [ed]
... noramlly animated attributes control the override styles
21:13:24 [cabanier]
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21:13:35 [ed]
... but we can't do that for current svg attributes
21:14:21 [ed]
can someone point to where in the wikipage we are?
21:14:52 [ed]
dirk: don't think override styles are the correct way of doing this
21:15:17 [ed]
CM: does css animation say to have a stylesheet in there?
21:15:26 [ed]
dirk: no it doesn't
21:15:39 [krit]
21:16:01 [ed]
... go down, intrinsic styles and the ?? style
21:16:10 [ed]
... what we have now is computed style
21:16:31 [ed]
... the animation style is between the computed style and the ?? style
21:16:56 [ed]
CM: seems natural to have a stylesheet for this
21:17:16 [ed]
dirk: css wants to keep smil separate
21:17:25 [ed]
CM: still preferable to override style
21:17:41 [ed]
dirk: yes, but you want the svgdom to represent the animated value
21:17:50 [ed]
... but override style is in conflict
21:18:12 [ed]
... you can say you have something like override style, after the computed style, taht's one solution
21:18:45 [ed]
... everyone agree that we have one stylesheet for smil animation?
21:19:18 [ed]
CM: yes, agree that the smil animation values to go somewhere other than the override stylesheet
21:19:34 [ed]
... that they should go somewhere else
21:19:43 [ed]
dirk: so where in the cascade?
21:19:53 [ed]
... would choose right before computed style
21:20:05 [ed]
CM: talking about the position in the stack?
21:20:17 [ed]
Dirk: the picture is for css animation
21:20:55 [ed]
... css don't want css animation and smil animation using the same stylesheet, to avoid conflicts
21:21:35 [ed]
... aslo talked to patrick and he thought we should put the smil animation right after the css animation styles
21:21:49 [ed]
s/css animation/presentation attributes/
21:22:10 [ed]
... problem with that is that any new style would override the ... animation
21:22:28 [ed]
... smil animation would run, but nothing would show on the screen
21:22:37 [ed]
CM: agree
21:22:56 [ed]
... even normal css styles would override the animation
21:23:04 [ed]
... which isn't good
21:23:37 [ed]
dirk: so outting it before or after the override stylesheet?
21:23:49 [ed]
CM: doesn't override stlyes affect the final values?
21:24:07 [ed]
... or the used values?
21:24:39 [ed]
... after you get the computed value, maybe override styles affect that final values
21:25:00 [ed]
... if you get computed style, would that be the animated value? cause i think it should
21:25:49 [ed]
... so above the computed stylesheet
21:26:08 [ed]
dirk: so between computed styles and ???
21:26:22 [ed]
... either before css animation or after
21:26:30 [ed]
... not sure how it's implemetned at the moment
21:27:03 [ed]
CM: do you think it's reasonable to let getComputedStyle be the animated values?
21:27:21 [ed]
dirk: i think that would make sense
21:27:43 [ed]
... still a question how to combine, first smil then css animation, or the other way around?
21:27:50 [ed]
CM: no strong opinion atm
21:28:04 [ed]
... we can look at what implementations do
21:28:49 [ed]
... would you expect there to be a separate stylesheet vs ... by style animation?
21:32:15 [ed]
dirk: for animVal I would expect to get a combination of css animation and smil animation, what you see on screen
21:32:19 [cabanier]
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21:32:45 [ed]
... good idea to look at implementations first
21:33:38 [ed]
ACTION: dirk to investigate how implementatons prioritize smil vs css animations of the same property
21:33:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3237 - Investigate how implementatons prioritize smil vs css animations of the same property [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-02-16].
21:34:14 [Zakim]
21:34:16 [Zakim]
21:34:18 [Zakim]
21:34:18 [Zakim]
21:34:21 [Zakim]
21:34:48 [ed]
trackbot, end telcon
21:34:48 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
21:34:48 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.415.832.aaaa, heycam, ed, krit, Tav, Doug_Schepers, cabanier, +61.2.980.5.aacc, cyril
21:34:56 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:34:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
21:34:57 [Zakim]
21:34:57 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
21:34:57 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
21:34:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: dirk to investigate how implementatons prioritize smil vs css animations of the same property [1]
21:34:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in