19:59:50 RRSAgent has joined #svg 19:59:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/09-svg-irc 19:59:52 RRSAgent, make logs public 19:59:52 Zakim has joined #svg 19:59:54 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 19:59:54 ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute 19:59:55 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 19:59:55 Date: 09 February 2012 19:59:56 Zakim, code? 19:59:56 the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), heycam 20:00:02 Tav has joined #svg 20:00:34 GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM has now started 20:00:41 + +1.415.832.aaaa 20:00:42 thanks 20:00:52 Zakim: help 20:01:37 +??P1 20:01:40 Zakim, ??P1i s me 20:01:40 I don't understand '??P1i s me', heycam 20:01:42 Zakim, ??P1 is me 20:01:42 +heycam; got it 20:02:04 +??P2 20:02:12 Zakim, ??P2 is me 20:02:12 +ed; got it 20:02:14 Zakim: +1.415.832.aaaa is me 20:02:37 Zakim, +1.415.832.aaaa is me 20:02:37 I don't understand '+1.415.832.aaaa is me', krit 20:03:05 Zakim, who is on the call? 20:03:05 On the phone I see +1.415.832.aaaa, heycam, ed 20:03:12 Zakim, +1.415.832.aaaa is me 20:03:12 I don't understand '+1.415.832.aaaa is me', krit 20:03:18 Zakim, +1.415.832 is krit 20:03:18 +krit; got it 20:03:33 Zakim, who is noisy? 20:03:49 ed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (53%), ed (24%) 20:04:47 +Tav 20:05:49 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0064.html 20:06:10 scribeNick: ed 20:06:11 Chair: Cameron 20:06:20 Topic: SVG attributes to presentation attributes 20:07:23 Dirk: Microsoft wanted to attend for this discussion too, we can postpone it 20:07:35 Topic: SVG2 Requirements 20:08:08 CM: the audio element 20:08:08 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#the_.3Caudio.3E_element 20:08:14 +Doug_Schepers 20:08:30 CM: we've already resolved for audio and video 20:08:37 ... just copy that to here 20:08:48 ED: yes 20:09:41 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#initialVisibility 20:09:46 CM: initalvisibility 20:09:53 cabanier has joined #svg 20:09:59 ... remind me, what's it for? 20:10:09 ... controlling visible before data is downloaded? 20:10:37 + +1.206.675.aabb 20:10:45 ... control media elements' display before the duration has stared 20:11:00 ... opera does this? 20:11:05 ED: don't think so 20:11:14 CM: seems simple 20:11:38 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/multimedia.html#initialVisibilityMediaAttribute 20:12:13 cabanier has joined #svg 20:12:14 "The 'initialVisibility' attribute applies to visual media elements ('video' and 'animation') and is used to control the visibility of the media object before its first active duration period has started." 20:12:30 CM: to me it doesn't seem that useful to bring across, 20:13:09 Dirk: do we have this in 1.1? 20:13:16 CM: no, audio and video are not in 1.1 20:13:36 ED: is there anything similar in html5 video? 20:13:49 Dirk: i think so 20:14:46 ... there's a poster attribute 20:14:58 http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/introduction-html5-video/ 20:15:02 ... and shows first frame of video if poster not available 20:15:23 CM: don't think we need the initalVisibility attribute 20:15:30 Zakim, who is on the call? 20:15:30 On the phone I see krit, heycam, ed, Tav, Doug_Schepers, +1.206.675.aabb 20:15:35 RESOLUTION: we will not add the initialVisibility attribute to SVG2 20:16:15 Zakim, +1.206.675.aabb is me 20:16:15 +cabanier; got it 20:16:25 CM: next, Run-time Synchronization attributes 20:16:48 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#Common_attributes 20:17:04 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#Run-time_Synchronization_attributes 20:17:18 + +61.2.980.5.aacc 20:17:20 CM: cyril would probably have an opinion on this 20:17:49 cyril has joined #svg 20:18:03 rrsagent, pointer 20:18:03 See http://www.w3.org/2012/02/09-svg-irc#T20-18-03 20:18:04 "These attributes are: syncBehavior, syncBehaviorDefault, syncTolerance, syncToleranceDefault and syncMaster." 20:18:26 Dirk: we wanted to specify some means of synchronizing across media, yes? 20:18:35 CC: yes i think it's useful, for subtitles e.g 20:18:45 ... to have them synchronized 20:18:56 Dirk: subtitles for video and audio? 20:19:26 CC: if you get subtitles from a different server, you can have an element and synchronize them with these attributes 20:19:44 Dirk: there's also the track elements in html5, for subtitles 20:20:06 ... why wouldn't you want to bind it to a specific video element? 20:20:16 CC: don't they have to be same-origin? 20:20:26 ... the track are in the same file, no? 20:20:44 Dirk: no, they're separate files, not sure if they have cross-origin restrictions though 20:21:10 CC: ok, yes you are right, track can point to anything 20:21:20 CM: in html5 video, what kind of synch do you get? 20:21:25 ... can you control it at all? 20:21:35 Dirk: no, they're always synched with the videop 20:22:16 CC: if you have subtitles and video from different servers coming in at different rates, you can lock the synch with the runtime synch attributes in svg 20:22:51 Dirk: video synch is a good usecase, but subtitles are always synched to the video 20:23:18 CM: right, but if they're slow from one site, e.g to pause the video if the subtitles are not loaded quickly enough 20:23:32 zakim, who is here? 20:23:32 On the phone I see krit, heycam, ed, Tav, Doug_Schepers, cabanier, +61.2.980.5.aacc 20:23:33 Dirk: I think this should be handled by html5 20:23:37 DS: agree 20:23:43 zakim, +61 is me 20:23:43 +cyril; got it 20:24:01 ... if subs aren't downloaded on time they're synched to the timeline when available, they shouldn't get out of synch 20:24:16 ... we shouldn't try to solve this if other groups are already working on this 20:24:38 CM: what is the current state of synch of audio/video in html5 20:24:49 ... synch between two video elements e.g 20:24:58 Dirk: you'll have to do that yourself with script 20:25:08 DS: right, there's no way to do it otherwise in html5 20:25:17 ... don't think we should try to solve that in svg 20:25:48 ... keep this around, but don't try to solve this in svg exclusively 20:25:58 ... should be solved in the larger case, and svg shouldn't be different 20:26:35 ... otherwise it won't get implemented 20:26:52 CM: agree with that concern 20:27:08 DS: we say html5, but we're talking about the platform 20:27:37 ... we should keep the requirement, but push this upwards to something that needs to be solved for multimedia 20:28:01 ... have had discussions with Apple about synchronization 20:28:20 ... they should be in on the conversation 20:28:46 ... many media companies that wan't to solve this for the web 20:28:59 CM: CC does this sound ok? 20:29:21 CC: i would really want the feature, but I don't really care how it's done 20:29:56 ... you might want to synch with an animation 20:30:02 ... a motionpath 20:30:14 ... and then you want the motion to follow something in a video 20:30:26 DS: we should push the requirement up... 20:30:35 CC: so let the it be handled by another WG? 20:30:40 DS: yes 20:30:59 ... maintain the requirement, but that we're fine resolving it higher up the web stack 20:32:12 RESOLUTION: svg2 should have synchronization support from somewhere in the web platform 20:32:43 cabanier has joined #svg 20:34:03 CM: the 'focusable' attribute 20:34:27 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#the_.27focusable.27_attribute 20:34:33 topic: the 'focusable' attribute 20:35:18 CM: so ED you said in your comment that 1.1 is unclear, and I agree 20:36:01 ... but i'm not sure about the attribute itself 20:36:08 ... who implements this? 20:36:20 ED: Opera and IE9 I think 20:36:35 CM: concern is that it's different from html5 20:37:09 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/#keyboard 20:37:09 DS: svg got focusable from CSS UI 20:37:18 ... but it might have been dropped from CSS3 UI 20:37:25 CM: no, still seems to be there 20:37:54 ... i'm fine with the requirement to be able to control focusability 20:38:19 DS: have been pinged about this offlist by accessibility folks 20:38:32 ... since svg doesn't have focusable support 20:38:52 ... we should have a focusing mechanism that is compatible with the rest of the web platform 20:39:06 ... might be nice to have a css proeprty for if something is focusable or not 20:39:15 ... don't think we've solved the problem for the web platform 20:39:22 ... tab-index is doing two things at once 20:39:31 ... it's not a great solution for svg content 20:39:53 ... it's inadequate, our focusability solution is better 20:40:26 ... don't think we should simply follow what html does here, because it's not necessarily appropriate 20:40:40 ... but whatever we decide to do, should apply to the whole wbe platform 20:40:49 CM: you can use tabindex=-1 20:40:59 http://viewplus.com/downloads/htmltests/accessibility/focus-events.xhtml 20:42:30 Dirk: ok, this example shows focusable support, works in webkit and opera 20:42:58 ED: yes, this uses implicit focusability (as defined in the spec, the default is focusable=auto) 20:43:12 ... the focusin/out event listeners make the elements focusable 20:44:17 RESOLUTION: svg2 will have a solution for specifying focusability and navigation order, and be consistent with html 20:44:54 CM: next one, navigation properties, we covered that by the previous resolution 20:45:27 topic: focusHighlight attribute 20:45:56 CM: i think this should be left up to content, like :focus or that sort of thing 20:46:10 DS: i think you're right 20:46:26 ... don't know if we resolved about the outline property 20:46:36 ... we should resolve to have outline in svg as well 20:47:09 CM: so to turn off the border for focus in html, you do something like :focus { outline: none } 20:47:11 ? 20:47:30 DS: it should work like in html 20:48:16 Dirk: is this related to hit testing in any way? 20:48:21 CM: think that's separate 20:48:50 DS: suggest that svg2 has a web-consistent focus highlight mechanism that relies on css 20:49:34 ED: or with svg? 20:49:40 -Tav 20:50:21 +Tav 20:50:29 DS: right, you can turn off default focus and get your own shape as showing the focus, e.g some special outline, then you could use script and css to hide and show those at the approproiate time 20:50:43 ... there should be an easy default solution (probably just an outline) 20:51:04 CM: so let's agree to be able to control this 20:51:41 RESOLUTION: svg2 will have a mechanism for controlling focus indication, consistent with css and html 20:52:59 Topic: focus API 20:53:12 dirk: we have a resolution to do this the html way 20:53:23 CM: agree with ED's comment in the table 20:53:53 RESOLUTION: svg2 will support an API to control focus consistent with html 20:54:07 topic: key events 20:54:30 Dirk: don't we have this already? 20:54:49 CM: we should just depend on the right specs to get this, we shouldn't need to define this ourselves 20:55:00 CC: put it becuase it's different in 1.2T and 1.1 20:55:15 DS: right, because 1.2T added key events 20:55:39 ... but what 1.2T did was to subset what was in dom 3 events 20:56:03 RESOLUTION: svg2 will have support for key events from DOM Level 3 Events 20:56:20 topic: SVGRotate event 20:56:41 CM: what did we decide with zoom and pan? 20:57:06 CC: not sure why i put only svgrotate and not svgzoom and pan 20:57:25 CM: this is just the event, if you change the dom property 20:57:32 ... or rotate in some other way 20:58:03 ... but if we decided to not have the zoom and pan gesture things, then maybe it doesn't make sense to have the event 20:58:14 DS: i think we should have events for zoom, pan and rotate 20:58:36 ... adn that they are enableable individually 20:58:44 ... the zoomAndPan attribute should be split out 20:59:01 CM: so we decided to not have a built in widget for zoom and pan 20:59:29 CC: right, but we decided to make it easy to make widgets for zooming and panning 20:59:55 ... we decided to accept the API, but not require UA widgets for it 21:00:14 DS: you could do it with the component model 21:00:51 ... to me it makes it more important that we expose these things (SVGRotate) 21:01:21 CM: the zoomAndPan attribute is for contorlling the built-in functionality for zooming and panning 21:01:55 ... SVGRotate, is dispatched in tiny1.2 when you set currentRotate or when the UA rotates the svg 21:03:17 DS: there might be UAs that allow rotating, or panning, or zooming... and you want to let content authors control whetehr they want this 21:03:43 ... nonscalingstroke 21:04:07 ... and transform=ref(svg) 21:04:49 CM: you can prevent events from being dispatched 21:04:53 DS: true 21:05:01 CM: before or after things happen 21:05:18 DS: that's scripted, but it's a reasonable solution 21:06:13 CM: does Opera support currentRotate? 21:06:40 ED: would have to check the code, the web support docs don't mention it 21:07:08 CM: what are the events for the others? svgscroll? 21:07:31 ... yes, SVGScroll, SVGResize, and SVG??? 21:07:46 ... don't liek them because they're different from the standard ones 21:07:53 s/SVG???/SVGZoom/ 21:07:55 ... but for rotate yes, there's no similar event 21:08:13 ... i don't mind having SVGRotate 21:08:25 CC: can we resolve then? 21:08:32 CM: everyone ok with this? 21:08:37 (silence) 21:08:56 RESOLUTION: svg2 will have an SVGRotate event 21:10:24 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/SVG_attribute_to_presentation_attribute 21:10:35 topic: svg attributes to presentation attributes 21:11:14 Dirk: presentation attributes use their own stylesheet, called it presentation attributes stylehseet 21:11:21 ... then inline stylesheet 21:11:29 ... external stylesheet, document stylesheet 21:11:41 CC: inline is the style attribute? 21:11:45 Dirk: yes 21:11:57 ... svgdom has the base and animated value 21:12:10 ... base value points to presentation attribute stylersheet 21:12:23 ... but animation congtrols the override stylesheet 21:12:36 ... so overrides computed style 21:13:20 ... noramlly animated attributes control the override styles 21:13:24 cabanier has joined #svg 21:13:35 ... but we can't do that for current svg attributes 21:14:21 can someone point to where in the wikipage we are? 21:14:52 dirk: don't think override styles are the correct way of doing this 21:15:17 CM: does css animation say to have a stylesheet in there? 21:15:26 dirk: no it doesn't 21:15:39 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-animations/ 21:16:01 ... go down, intrinsic styles and the ?? style 21:16:10 ... what we have now is computed style 21:16:31 ... the animation style is between the computed style and the ?? style 21:16:56 CM: seems natural to have a stylesheet for this 21:17:16 dirk: css wants to keep smil separate 21:17:25 CM: still preferable to override style 21:17:41 dirk: yes, but you want the svgdom to represent the animated value 21:17:50 ... but override style is in conflict 21:18:12 ... you can say you have something like override style, after the computed style, taht's one solution 21:18:45 ... everyone agree that we have one stylesheet for smil animation? 21:19:18 CM: yes, agree that the smil animation values to go somewhere other than the override stylesheet 21:19:34 ... that they should go somewhere else 21:19:43 dirk: so where in the cascade? 21:19:53 ... would choose right before computed style 21:20:05 CM: talking about the position in the stack? 21:20:17 Dirk: the picture is for css animation 21:20:55 ... css don't want css animation and smil animation using the same stylesheet, to avoid conflicts 21:21:35 ... aslo talked to patrick and he thought we should put the smil animation right after the css animation styles 21:21:49 s/css animation/presentation attributes/ 21:22:10 ... problem with that is that any new style would override the ... animation 21:22:28 ... smil animation would run, but nothing would show on the screen 21:22:37 CM: agree 21:22:56 ... even normal css styles would override the animation 21:23:04 ... which isn't good 21:23:37 dirk: so outting it before or after the override stylesheet? 21:23:49 CM: doesn't override stlyes affect the final values? 21:24:07 ... or the used values? 21:24:39 ... after you get the computed value, maybe override styles affect that final values 21:25:00 ... if you get computed style, would that be the animated value? cause i think it should 21:25:49 ... so above the computed stylesheet 21:26:08 dirk: so between computed styles and ??? 21:26:22 ... either before css animation or after 21:26:30 ... not sure how it's implemetned at the moment 21:27:03 CM: do you think it's reasonable to let getComputedStyle be the animated values? 21:27:21 dirk: i think that would make sense 21:27:43 ... still a question how to combine, first smil then css animation, or the other way around? 21:27:50 CM: no strong opinion atm 21:28:04 ... we can look at what implementations do 21:28:49 ... would you expect there to be a separate stylesheet vs ... by style animation? 21:32:15 dirk: for animVal I would expect to get a combination of css animation and smil animation, what you see on screen 21:32:19 cabanier has joined #svg 21:32:45 ... good idea to look at implementations first 21:33:38 ACTION: dirk to investigate how implementatons prioritize smil vs css animations of the same property 21:33:39 Created ACTION-3237 - Investigate how implementatons prioritize smil vs css animations of the same property [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-02-16]. 21:34:14 -Doug_Schepers 21:34:16 -ed 21:34:18 -heycam 21:34:18 -Tav 21:34:21 -cabanier 21:34:48 trackbot, end telcon 21:34:48 Zakim, list attendees 21:34:48 As of this point the attendees have been +1.415.832.aaaa, heycam, ed, krit, Tav, Doug_Schepers, cabanier, +61.2.980.5.aacc, cyril 21:34:56 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 21:34:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/09-svg-minutes.html trackbot 21:34:57 -cyril 21:34:57 RRSAgent, bye 21:34:57 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/09-svg-actions.rdf : 21:34:57 ACTION: dirk to investigate how implementatons prioritize smil vs css animations of the same property [1] 21:34:57 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/09-svg-irc#T21-33-38