IRC log of rdf-wg on 2012-02-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:56:36 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:56:36 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:56:38 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:56:40 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 73394
15:56:40 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
15:56:41 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:56:41 [trackbot]
Date: 08 February 2012
15:57:08 [AndyS]
zakim, this is 73394
15:57:08 [Zakim]
ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:58:55 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:58:55 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:58:56 [Zakim]
15:58:57 [swh]
swh has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:36 [Zakim]
15:59:48 [gavinc]
gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:49 [yvesr]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P5, Ivan, Guus
15:59:54 [yvesr]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
15:59:54 [Zakim]
+yvesr; got it
15:59:56 [Zakim]
16:00:10 [Arnaud]
Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:12 [pfps]
pfps has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:34 [Zakim]
16:00:38 [Zakim]
+ +
16:00:40 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:00:40 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
16:00:41 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:00:41 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:00:43 [Zakim]
16:00:53 [AZ]
zakim, + is me
16:00:53 [Zakim]
+AZ; got it
16:00:54 [NickH]
Zakim, ??P13 is me
16:00:54 [Zakim]
+NickH; got it
16:00:59 [Zakim]
+ +1.707.861.aabb
16:00:59 [AZ]
zakim, mute me
16:01:01 [Zakim]
AZ should now be muted
16:01:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.996.aacc
16:01:02 [NickH]
Zakim, mute me
16:01:03 [Zakim]
NickH should now be muted
16:01:10 [gavinc]
Zakim, aabb is me
16:01:10 [Zakim]
+gavinc; got it
16:01:13 [AlexHall]
AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.443.212.aadd
16:01:31 [AlexHall]
zakim, aadd is me
16:01:31 [Zakim]
+AlexHall; got it
16:01:33 [Zakim]
16:01:45 [sandro]
sandro has changed the topic to: 8 Feb --
16:01:47 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
16:01:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see yvesr, Ivan, Guus, Peter_Patel-Schneider, MacTed (muted), AZ (muted), NickH (muted), gavinc, +1.408.996.aacc, AlexHall, Sandro
16:01:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see AlexHall, pfps, Arnaud, gavinc, swh, RRSAgent, AZ, ScottB, Zakim, LeeF, AndyS, Guus, MacTed, mischat, ivan, danbri, SteveH, yvesr, davidwood, mdmdm, manu, trackbot,
16:02:02 [Zakim]
... manu1, NickH, sandro, ericP
16:02:04 [Zakim]
16:02:09 [swh]
Zakim, ??P17 is me
16:02:10 [pchampin]
pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:20 [Zakim]
+swh; got it
16:02:24 [Zakim]
16:02:42 [ScottB]
Zakim, Tony is me
16:02:42 [Zakim]
+ScottB; got it
16:03:46 [Zakim]
16:03:51 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P24 is me
16:03:51 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
16:04:02 [Zakim]
16:04:15 [Zakim]
+ +44.117.230.aaee
16:04:23 [danbri]
zakim, +44.117.230.aaee is danbri
16:04:25 [Zakim]
+danbri; got it
16:05:27 [danbri]
(we've got a breather...)
16:05:43 [swh]
scribe: swh
16:05:48 [swh]
scribenick: swh
16:06:29 [pfps]
minutes look fine
16:06:35 [swh]
PROPOSED: accept minuites of last week
16:06:53 [zwu2]
zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:06:55 [swh]
16:06:57 [zwu2]
zakim, code?
16:06:57 [Zakim]
the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, zwu2
16:07:07 [swh]
Pending review items
16:07:14 [swh]
ACTION-166: done
16:07:14 [trackbot]
Sorry... adding notes to ACTION-166 failed, please let sysreq know about it
16:07:29 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.265.aaff
16:07:35 [FabGandon]
FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
16:07:38 [zwu2]
zakim, +1.650.265.aaff is me
16:07:38 [Zakim]
+zwu2; got it
16:09:10 [Zakim]
16:10:53 [Zakim]
16:11:47 [Zakim]
16:12:15 [Zakim]
16:12:16 [danbri]
(was I audible?)
16:12:21 [AndyS]
zakim, IPCaller is me
16:12:22 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
16:13:15 [Zakim]
+ +1.707.318.aagg
16:13:25 [cgreer]
cgreer has joined #rdf-wg
16:13:55 [swh]
One more review since last week
16:14:49 [swh]
AlexHall: there's a lot of cleanup in XSD around defn's of lexical and value spaces, and mapping. RDF doesn't say anything about them. Just refers to them. No action needed.
16:14:59 [Zakim]
16:15:10 [swh]
… one change that needs discussion is distinction between identity and equality
16:15:11 [sandro]
zakim, who is talking?
16:15:14 [Guus]
zakim, who is talking?
16:15:22 [Zakim]
sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (14%), AlexHall (19%), AndyS (13%)
16:15:33 [Zakim]
Guus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (9%), swh (5%), AlexHall (94%)
16:16:00 [swh]
… has implications around entailment - for eg. +0 and -0 are distinct under XSD 1.1, but were equiv under 1.0
16:16:20 [swh]
… NaN has implications for SPARQL, but not RDF
16:16:30 [Zakim]
16:16:55 [swh]
… we might need to write some text in the semantics document to make this clear
16:17:00 [Zakim]
16:17:04 [AndyS]
zakim, P24 is me
16:17:04 [Zakim]
sorry, AndyS, I do not recognize a party named 'P24'
16:17:11 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P24 is me
16:17:11 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
16:18:04 [swh]
… should probably include duration as well as the datetime etc. datatypes in the types that are good for use with RDF
16:18:17 [swh]
Guus: we should raise that as an issue
16:18:29 [swh]
AlexHall: there's already an older issue
16:18:44 [AlexHall]
16:19:46 [swh]
Guus: should add that review to ISSUE-66
16:20:36 [swh]
16:20:56 [swh]
Guus: things came up this week, from Ivan w.r.t. multiline comments
16:21:20 [swh]
gavinc: read through it, not had time to write an email
16:21:35 [swh]
… comment that we should do it like python is a problem because python doesn't
16:21:45 [swh]
… have multiline comments
16:21:59 [Souri]
Souri has joined #rdf-wg
16:22:00 [sandro]
? CSS has multiline comments.
16:22:05 [swh]
… CSS only has single line comments, I don't see it as major problem
16:22:07 [sandro]
16:22:16 [Zakim]
16:22:17 [Zakim]
16:22:31 [swh]
Danny Ayres had a comment
16:22:47 [danbri]
re CSS .... /* I thought it \n did */
16:22:47 [swh]
gavinc: yes, CSS does have multiline comments
16:23:13 [swh]
… we could do what python does, but seems like a large change
16:23:30 [swh]
Guus: ask gavinc or ericP to respond to Danny
16:23:36 [swh]
ericP: do we need a descision?
16:23:45 [sandro] "similar to those in the C programming language"
16:23:52 [swh]
… we want to keep alignment with SPARQL etc.
16:23:54 [ivan]
16:24:22 [gavinc]
sandro, Yeah, I have have no idea where my brain was
16:24:32 [swh]
ericP: I feel like I have lack of authority
16:24:48 [swh]
Guus: might be best to raise an issue
16:24:50 [sandro]
Yeah, I think this needs a WG resolution.
16:25:27 [AndyS]
ack ivan
16:25:45 [swh]
ivan: was a discussion danny raised on swig, not formally raised on this group, Ivan just drew groups attention to it
16:25:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.438.aahh
16:26:21 [zwu2]
zakim, +1.603.438.aahh is me
16:26:21 [Zakim]
+zwu2; got it
16:26:22 [swh]
Guus: I think it would be in the spirit to regard this as a comment
16:26:42 [swh]
… ericP and gavinc, please take an action
16:27:01 [swh]
ACTION: ericP to repsond to multiline comments comment of Danny Ayres
16:27:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-142 - Repsond to multiline comments comment of Danny Ayres [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-15].
16:27:22 [swh]
Guus: 2nd issue, raised by Alex, on local name escapes
16:27:48 [swh]
AlexHall: one issue is a typo… [noise]
16:28:18 [swh]
… double \ was shown as introducing a char escape squence
16:28:30 [swh]
… the other I was confused by appearance of % escape encoding in local part
16:28:44 [swh]
… want clarification that they're not treated as escapes
16:29:02 [swh]
… Andy confirmed for SPARQL, but not Turtle editors
16:29:37 [AlexHall]
16:29:38 [swh]
ericP: you concern is whether I can say %68 and have it be equivalent to the unencoded version
16:29:51 [gavinc]
on comments, Python still doesn't have multi line comments, nor Perl, and Ruby has really really funky multi line comment
16:29:59 [AndyS]
16:30:16 [swh]
AlexHall: if I include a % in the localname, is it equiv. to the unescaped version
16:30:23 [swh]
ericP: [writing example]
16:30:31 [ericP]
my:foob%61ar -- my:foobar ?
16:31:16 [swh]
ericP: I believe that the % has to stay in there - can't take %s out and have equivalence
16:31:19 [sandro]
I think you mean: my:foob%61r -- my:foobar
16:31:52 [swh]
AlexHall: I'm worried that people might thing it gets deescaped
16:32:23 [swh]
ericP: ok, we need a bit of text saying you're not intended to unescape during processing
16:32:46 [swh]
gavinc: possibly just reference the RFC doc
16:33:08 [Guus]
16:33:10 [swh]
§5.3.1- simple string comparison
16:35:09 [ericP]
ACTION: ericP to propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* unescaped while parsing Turtle
16:35:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-143 - Propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* unescaped while parsing Turtle [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-15].
16:35:58 [swh]
gavinc: do want to look at publishing a new draft of Turtle soon
16:36:03 [Zakim]
- +1.707.318.aagg
16:36:09 [ivan]
+1 to gavinc
16:36:12 [swh]
… we have Turtle in HTML, grammar has changed,
16:36:49 [swh]
ericP: were there any changes we made without consensus
16:37:01 [swh]
Guus: may need formal review if WG wants
16:37:48 [swh]
Topic: named graphs
16:37:59 [swh]
Guus: want to talk a bit about exchanging data
16:38:14 [swh]
… message from AndyS
16:38:32 [AndyS]
I don't think we have consensus
16:38:37 [swh]
Guus: AndyS, do you think we reached consensus
16:39:09 [swh]
AndyS: I brought it up because it was a priority before
16:39:29 [swh]
… I think Pat and I are agreed about whether it would be best if we published the smenatics of the 4th column
16:39:42 [swh]
… I think we'd like to see it published, but need back compat
16:40:26 [swh]
AndyS: if you look at dbpedia they have a 4th col, but I don't know what it means, they're not complying to a published method, but it is a usecase
16:40:53 [swh]
Guus: so, you can't use the 4th column as an IRI to fetch the triples
16:40:58 [swh]
AndyS: no
16:41:04 [swh]
… it's got a hash on the end
16:41:11 [swh]
… it's quite profile, and it exists
16:41:11 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
16:41:11 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
16:41:21 [Guus]
16:42:11 [swh]
Guus: what is the relationship between the 4th col and the triple?
16:42:19 [swh]
MacTed: I don't know, trying to get answer
16:43:05 [swh]
ACTION: MacTed to investigate what the relationship is, and document it
16:43:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-144 - Investigate what the relationship is, and document it [on Ted Thibodeau - due 2012-02-15].
16:43:17 [swh]
AndyS: the consequence is that quads are not just an internal issues
16:43:24 [swh]
ivan: I don't understant
16:43:34 [swh]
AndyS: I phrased the usecase as being about TriG
16:43:53 [swh]
… it's from the extraction project, not the running service
16:46:08 [swh]
ACTION-144: relationship between 4th col and triple
16:46:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-144 Investigate what the relationship is, and document it notes added
16:46:26 [swh]
Guus: usecase discussion between sandro and AndyS
16:46:43 [davidwood]
q+ to ask about the details of the use case
16:46:53 [swh]
… to illustrate how you go about identifying time-varying gboxes
16:47:01 [davidwood]
16:47:07 [swh]
… AndyS, sandro, do you think your desgins are the same
16:47:23 [swh]
sandro: we're talking about the same pattern
16:47:38 [swh]
Guus: that makes it worth exploring in more detail
16:47:50 [swh]
… in general I'l like to explore more solution designs and apply to usecase
16:48:07 [Guus]
16:48:40 [swh]
Guus: we started exploring sulution designs
16:48:50 [swh]
… try to give a natural language explanation of what it means
16:48:58 [swh]
… so non RDF geeks can understand
16:49:04 [swh]
… started writing down examples
16:49:17 [swh]
… my question to WG is, is this kind of approach useful?
16:49:17 [Zakim]
16:49:33 [AndyS]
Useful to explore this pattern
16:49:58 [swh]
… in the 3rd usecase sandro has a statement about static graph container, those appear in AndyS's solution too
16:50:07 [swh]
… do we want to define that, and if so, in what namespace
16:50:12 [ivan]
16:50:17 [swh]
no moee namespaces please
16:50:23 [sandro]
16:50:26 [swh]
Guus: is it useful to look at these designs?
16:50:36 [AndyS]
16:50:37 [sandro]
+1 on looking at solutions in more detail
16:50:41 [swh]
16:50:59 [pchampin]
16:51:01 [Zakim]
16:51:02 [swh]
ivan: we certainly have to move on and look at possibilities
16:51:04 [AZ]
zakim, mute me
16:51:04 [Zakim]
AZ should now be muted
16:51:31 [swh]
… what I don't fully understand is that the usecase means the semantics of GET, but does it mean that you would have other semantics?
16:51:49 [swh]
Guus: how do we do the page structuring? I thought one page per solution
16:52:07 [swh]
… tried to come up with nat lang description of TriG RESR
16:52:14 [swh]
16:52:30 [MacTed]
AndyS - do you have a sample fourth-column value from those DBpedia dumps?
16:52:33 [swh]
sandro: at a tutorial level the text description is ok
16:52:45 [swh]
ivan: I would prefer to see all on one page
16:52:50 [swh]
Guus: no problem
16:52:54 [MacTed]
(even better, a full row or two from any of those N-quad files)
16:52:55 [sandro]
16:53:02 [AndyS]
MacTed - the load page has samples IIRC
16:53:12 [swh]
sandro: I was doing the same thing
16:53:28 [AndyS]
... not sure if they are representative enough.
16:54:00 [swh]
sandro: my impression right now is that most of the group is not following this closely enough to make descisions about it
16:54:26 [swh]
Guus: I prefer to see people owning solutions
16:54:47 [swh]
sandro: don't want to get too emotionally involved
16:55:07 [ericP]
scribenick: ericP
16:55:08 [Zakim]
16:55:28 [ericP]
Guus: happy to write more examples for this solution
16:56:13 [ericP]
… i'll try to stay impartial in my defense of this solution
16:56:36 [sandro]
16:56:38 [ericP]
… and there's the equality use case?
16:57:15 [ericP]
sandro: in TF-Graphs-Designs, the first is "trig state" (earlier called "trig rest") (subject of guus's page)
16:57:26 [ericP]
… second is "trig equality"
16:57:47 [ericP]
Guus: where the lable is a placeholder for the set of triples, instead of pointing to it
16:59:05 [ericP]
sandro: 3rd is the n3 style of explicitly naming the relation (scroll down to "graph object")
17:00:48 [ericP]
... "Graph Objects" is triples, where nodes can be graphs
17:01:09 [zwu2]
17:01:19 [ivan]
17:01:22 [ericP]
Guus: could be seen at quints, e.g.:
17:01:23 [danbri]
(regarding 'bigger than RDF', I always think of RDF as ... and quads as adding an extra dimension...)
17:01:44 [ericP]
… eg:s1 eg:p1 eg:o1. eg:g1 rdf:graphState
17:01:52 [yvesr]
it is possible to store such things in a quad store (that's how my SWI-Prolog N3 implementation works)
17:02:09 [ericP]
sandro: steve argued that there's a problematic computational overhead to this approach
17:03:06 [ericP]
… distinction between Graph Objects and Graph Datatypes is that former has graphs in the object position and latter has turtle literals
17:04:41 [sandro]
the type of the thing identified by the label.
17:04:41 [pchampin]
re 5., I would be more comfortable with something more keywordish, like "@graphLabelRelation rdf:graphState"
17:04:47 [ericP]
AndyS: [re: Relation Flag"] i was imagining the the modifier applied to each triple, e.g. eg:s eg:p eg:o. eg:g
17:06:21 [ericP]
Guus: in AndyS's Oct mail, he used types like StaticGraphContainer
17:06:38 [ericP]
… these are close to Graph Objects
17:07:11 [ericP]
sandro: with trig state, there are precise semantics which i think are distinguishable [from andy's mail]
17:07:50 [AndyS]
17:07:53 [Guus]
17:07:55 [ericP]
… calling Andy's proposal "typed @@1"
17:08:28 [ericP]
zwu: with graphs as objects, how could you enforce equality?
17:08:57 [ericP]
ericP: i.e. have the same extension?
17:09:12 [ericP]
zwu: right, owl:sameAs has powerful semantics
17:09:40 [ericP]
sandro: hasn't come up in the use cases, but you could say
17:10:09 [AndyS]
"""The built-in OWL property owl:sameAs links an individual to an individual."""
17:10:12 [ericP]
… ^h^h^h utter some inconsistency which was computationally hard to catch
17:10:28 [Souri]
+1 to calling it something else
17:10:53 [sandro]
ivan: later, we can say sameas is sameas sameas
17:10:57 [pchampin]
sameGraph ?
17:10:58 [ericP]
… so if we use owl:sameAs, are we bringing in baggage? happy to use something else
17:11:06 [ericP]
… sameGraphAs
17:11:23 [MacTed]
-1000 sameGraphAs
17:11:30 [ericP]
zwu: triple order and bnodes make it hard
17:11:32 [MacTed]
sameGbox maybe
17:11:32 [AndyS]
It is expensive to test for equality. See JJC paper.
17:12:00 [MacTed]
(implying also sameGsnap, sameGtext)
17:12:06 [pchampin]
@MacTed no, as I get it, the idea is to identify the g-snap here, to the g-box
17:12:44 [gavinc]
Please see
17:12:49 [sandro]
MacTed, how about rdf:isGSnap ?
17:13:01 [ericP]
sandro: i think we can factor out that computation because it's not necessary for the use cases
17:14:29 [ericP]
[general exceptance of the term "GSnap"]
17:14:55 [ericP]
Guus: would like to execute the provenance scenario with these different designs
17:15:12 [ericP]
Arnaud: have we defined GSnap et al?
17:15:28 [sandro] edited to use rdf:isGSnap
17:15:32 [ericP]
sandro: plan is that these terms won't make it into the final specs
17:15:59 [ericP]
ACTION: Guus to merge his page with Sandro's
17:15:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-145 - Merge his page with Sandro's [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-02-15].
17:17:03 [ericP]
ACTION: Guus to write down the provenance scenario example, as well as those in AndyS's and Steve's email, and the one from DBPedia
17:17:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-146 - Write down the provenance scenario example, as well as those in AndyS's and Steve's email, and the one from DBPedia [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-02-15].
17:17:19 [Zakim]
17:17:55 [ericP]
Guus: let's start with the three in sandro's message, plus the one in Andy's message and the keeping-inference-separate examples
17:18:19 [AZ]
17:18:22 [Zakim]
17:18:23 [zwu2]
17:18:27 [danbri]
17:18:27 [Zakim]
17:18:29 [Zakim]
17:18:37 [MacTed]
s/general exceptance/general acceptance/
17:18:38 [Zakim]
17:18:41 [Zakim]
17:18:43 [Zakim]
17:18:47 [Zakim]
17:18:48 [Zakim]
17:18:52 [Zakim]
17:19:03 [danbri] ?
17:19:21 [ScottB]
17:19:25 [AlexHall]
AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
17:19:35 [Zakim]
- +1.408.996.aacc
17:19:36 [Zakim]
17:20:08 [Zakim]
17:20:15 [AndyS]
AndyS has left #rdf-wg
17:21:09 [ericP]
17:21:54 [Zakim]
17:22:05 [Zakim]
17:22:15 [Zakim]
17:22:23 [ScottB]
17:22:27 [sandro]
zakim, who is on the call?
17:22:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, FabGandon, EricP
17:24:03 [Zakim]
17:25:33 [FabGandon]
FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
17:25:54 [sandro]
zakim, who is on the call?
17:25:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, EricP
17:27:03 [Zakim]
17:29:29 [sandro]
17:32:47 [Zakim]
17:32:48 [Zakim]
17:32:48 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
17:32:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ivan, Guus, yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, MacTed, AZ, NickH, +1.707.861.aabb, +1.408.996.aacc, gavinc, +1.443.212.aadd, AlexHall, Sandro, swh, ScottB, AndyS,
17:32:48 [Zakim]
... davidwood, danbri, zwu2, FabGandon, EricP, +1.707.318.aagg, pchampin, Souri
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