17:32:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:32:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-ua-irc
17:32:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:32:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
17:32:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:32:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
17:32:23 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:32:23 <trackbot> Date: 02 February 2012
17:32:45 <JAllan> rrsagent, make logs public
17:33:05 <JAllan> chair: Kelly Ford, Jim Allan
17:57:19 <kford> kford has joined #ua
17:57:59 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
17:59:33 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:59:41 <Zakim> +??P12
17:59:46 <kford> zakim, agenda?
17:59:46 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
18:00:08 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
18:01:15 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
18:01:46 <Zakim> +??P18
18:02:08 <Jan> zakim, ??P18 is really Jan
18:02:08 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
18:02:19 <Greg> zakim, ??p12 is Greg
18:02:19 <Zakim> +Greg; got it
18:02:41 <Zakim> +Jeanne
18:02:44 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ua
18:02:47 <JAllan> Agenda+ Discussion on guideline levels
18:02:48 <JAllan> agenda+ review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones
18:02:50 <JAllan> Agenda+ Discuss Simon's proposal on 1.2 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0039.html
18:02:51 <JAllan> Agenda+ Review other proposals sent to list
18:03:02 <kford> zakim, agenda?
18:03:02 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:03:02 <jeanne> zakim, who is here?
18:03:04 <Zakim> 1. Discussion on guideline levels [from JAllan]
18:03:04 <Zakim> 2. review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones [from JAllan]
18:03:04 <Zakim> 3. Discuss Simon's proposal on 1.2 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0039.html [from JAllan]
18:03:06 <Zakim> 4. Review other proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:03:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Greg, [Microsoft], Jan, Jeanne
18:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see jeanne, Jan, Greg, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
18:03:20 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
18:05:04 <Jan> zakim, [Microsoft] is really kford
18:05:04 <Zakim> +kford; got it
18:05:05 <sharper> sharper has joined #ua
18:06:30 <JAllan> scribe: JAllan
18:06:54 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
18:07:05 <Zakim> +??P5
18:07:07 <JAllan> all: discussion of current ANPRM comments due in March
18:07:19 <sharper> zakim, ??P5 is sharper
18:07:19 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
18:07:34 <JAllan> regrets: Mark
18:08:07 <JAllan> present: Greg, Jeanne, Kelly, Jan, Jim, Kim, Simon
18:08:21 <KimPatch> KimPatch has joined #ua
18:11:14 <Greg> Greg described how the Section 508 refresh incorporates WCAG 2.0 for all content and for software user interfaces.
18:11:34 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:11:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-ua-minutes.html kford
18:11:52 <kford> zakim, take up item 1
18:11:52 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Discussion on guideline levels" taken up [from JAllan]
18:12:00 <JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0048.html
18:12:18 <JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0038.html
18:12:43 <jeanne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0048.html
18:13:21 <JAllan> js: above is stuff Jeanne and Kim worked on, following Wayne's comments
18:13:52 <JAllan> ...seek to improve the consistency and transparency
18:14:32 <JAllan> ... with objectiveness. thought of mathematical formula. 
18:15:15 <JAllan> js: above only a draft. use this to evaluate current SC levels to see how they compare. tweak as needed
18:15:30 <JAllan> js: 4 levels
18:15:58 <JAllan> ...severity of barrier -- prevented from doing =5 ...slows=1
18:17:12 <JAllan> ...number of different groups that an SC benefits. (trying to use numbers of peoples not beneficial), this needs more work
18:17:52 <JAllan> ...need better taxonomy of disabilities. JTC1 has only 6 categories.
18:18:36 <Jan> +1 to Jim
18:19:08 <JAllan> ja: what about using functional limitations rather than disabilities
18:19:44 <JAllan> js: need to find something we can reference, to limit rangling
18:20:22 <JAllan> gl: why do we need formalized levels.
18:20:54 <Jan> BTW: ATAG's approach: http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2012/ED-IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20-20120113/#intro_understand_levels_conformance
18:21:59 <JAllan> js: discussions with Judy. WCAG does not have definitions of levels, suggested ATAG and UAAG have them
18:22:45 <JAllan> jr: concerns about using groups. flashing only benefits one group
18:23:17 <JAllan> flashing is also good for cognitive and distraction issues
18:24:52 <sharper> Interesting ... http://www.unescap.org/stat/disability/manual/Chapter2-Disability-Statistics.asp
18:25:36 <JAllan> jr: validates Kim's statement about rating SC based on knowledge of disability of a particular group
18:26:05 <JAllan> ... trying to elimate judgement calls, all of these things will have gray area.
18:26:36 <JAllan> kf: concerned about making rating system public. concerned about everyone debugging it.
18:27:06 <JAllan> ... its a tough problem
18:27:42 <JAllan> kp: what are each of our top 5 SC for the group of users each of us knows best
18:28:07 <JAllan> ... would be a good exercise
18:28:19 <JAllan> ... so all could better judge.
18:28:23 <sharper> World Health Organisation International Classification of Functioning, Disability and Health (ICF)
18:28:33 <sharper> http://www.who.int/classifications/icf/en/
18:29:17 <JAllan> sh: use WHO or UNESCO classifications. they are quantitative on a continuum
18:29:52 <JAllan> ... use these metrics to define what we are talking about. WHO and others are pretty bulky, may need a subset
18:30:32 <JAllan> kp: would be good to have users read the guidelines and give their opinions
18:31:00 <JAllan> sh: large portion of AT is discarded after 3 months
18:32:18 <sharper> Check list is here http://www.who.int/entity/classifications/icf/training/icfchecklist.pdf
18:32:34 <JAllan> js: don't listen to what users say they want, watch then and see what they need
18:33:30 <JAllan> gl: need an exercise for justification of levels. quick review of ATAG was good.
18:33:38 <JAllan> js: 2 other areas
18:33:54 <JAllan> ... existing implementions (number of)
18:34:38 <JAllan> ... feasibility (deterministic vs inferential).
18:35:05 <JAllan> gl: what about things that make things worse for a different group of user (disabled or not)
18:36:00 <JAllan> ... e.g. a guideline says always does X, contrast level above xys, but there are people who dont need that. 
18:36:33 <JAllan> ... concern about negative impact average users.
18:36:50 <JAllan> js: these is good, but need to address the weight.
18:37:03 <jeanne> negative impact - benefits one group vs. another group (including mainstream users)
18:37:19 <JAllan> kp: depends on how it is implemented. 
18:37:56 <JAllan> kf: if we use this, how do we get from todays stuff to a different criteria for levels
18:38:26 <JAllan> js: use the criteria to complete kims spreadsheet 
18:38:38 <JAllan> ... just try it.
18:39:24 <JAllan> kf: you and kim try it? or all of us?
18:39:40 <JAllan> js: more is better
18:40:26 <JAllan> js: if you have specific concerns about SC do those
18:40:44 <JAllan> kf: don't want this to be a 3 month project.
18:41:12 <JAllan> js: RIGHT!! don't want total review, and start editing, etc.
18:41:27 <JAllan> kf: what do you need to set up the columns etc.
18:42:13 <JAllan> kp: easy to set up simple version, ping everyone.
18:42:29 <JAllan> js: need to have this done by next week.
18:42:54 <JAllan> kf: some SC have changed. the spreadsheet is out of date.
18:43:42 <JAllan> discussion of gregs converter. to generate new spreadsheet
18:46:28 <JAllan> gl: are we planning on doing the exercise, 4 columns of the criteria.
18:47:01 <Zakim> -Jan
18:47:20 <sharper> zakim, who is making noise?
18:47:30 <Greg> Would be nice if your data could be converted to reader-friendly “significantly improves efficiency for people with difficulty typing” and “removes absolute barrier for people without vision”, etc.
18:47:30 <Zakim> sharper, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Greg (5%)
18:47:42 <sharper> zakim, who is making noise?
18:47:55 <Zakim> sharper, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Kim_Patch (27%), Jim_Allan (13%)
18:48:08 <kford> zakim, who's making noise
18:48:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's making noise', kford
18:48:41 <JAllan> gl: would be nice if the creiteria could be stated in human readable sentences
18:48:59 <JAllan> kp: its going to be numbers. 
18:49:26 <JAllan> gl: need statements to reflect (annotate) the numbers
18:50:26 <JAllan> discussion of last weeks edits
18:51:28 <JAllan> discussion of currency of the draft to make spreadsheet
18:55:42 <kford> zakim, close item 1
18:55:42 <Zakim> agendum 1, Discussion on guideline levels, closed
18:55:43 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:55:43 <Zakim> 2. review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones [from JAllan]
18:55:59 <kford> zakim, agenda?
18:55:59 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:56:01 <Zakim> 2. review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones [from JAllan]
18:56:01 <Zakim> 3. Discuss Simon's proposal on 1.2 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0039.html [from JAllan]
18:56:01 <Zakim> 4. Review other proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:56:15 <kford> zakim, take up item 3
18:56:15 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Discuss Simon's proposal on 1.2 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0039.html" taken up [from JAllan]
18:57:52 <JAllan> sh: lots of discussion last week about 2.1. took actions to review. if we combine then we do a disservice to users. all will be AAA
18:58:48 <JAllan> ...add user into the mix. and combine and make it A as follows
18:59:00 <JAllan> 1.2.1 In situations where missing or empty alternative content or 
18:59:02 <JAllan> associations can be identified, the user agent will provide notify when 
18:59:03 <JAllan> the element achieves focus, and upon their request, will relate all 
18:59:05 <JAllan> available metadata to the user, enabling the user to take appropriate 
18:59:06 <JAllan> alternative action.
19:00:16 <JAllan> sh: the UA notifies the user of a problem, its up to the user to find something to make the missing content make sense.
19:00:28 <JAllan> +1
19:01:13 <JAllan> sh: I am recommending this
19:01:54 <JAllan> ja: +1
19:02:18 <JAllan> gl: a bit confused, not sure we want to dive in to it now.
19:03:46 <JAllan> sh: there will be no repair. if something is missing then tell the user, and tell user available metadata.
19:04:05 <JAllan> gl: but this would be good everywhere. 
19:05:11 <JAllan> sh: then we change the wording. to say something is missing, use this other mechanism to read all the available metadata available
19:05:59 <JAllan> ja: like finding hashed passwords on the web
19:06:54 <JAllan> gl: some user click on an object to get all the metadata. this could be useful for all users.
19:07:53 <JAllan> sh: e.g. something is missing, I can id all things complete, I need to be able to find all things that are missing something.
19:08:05 <JAllan> ... then give me all the other available info.
19:08:59 <JAllan> sh: agree that getting metadata on everything is good. but also need to be able to get info about objects that are missing data
19:09:31 <jeanne> q+ to ask about alt=""
19:11:57 <JAllan> ja: like this.
19:12:03 <jeanne> q-
19:12:10 <JAllan> kf: gives the user control,
19:12:57 <JAllan> kp: this is good. human brain better at figuring somethings out.
19:13:03 <JAllan> kf: now what?
19:13:12 <JAllan> ja: just put it in the doc.
19:13:29 <JAllan> sh: let greg write up his thoughts
19:13:46 <JAllan> kf: any objections to this direction?
19:13:49 <JAllan> none heard
19:14:12 <JAllan> kf: what happens to the intents and examples in the current doc. 
19:14:24 <JAllan> ... and the spreadsheet. 
19:14:45 <JAllan> ...as we try to lock down, we keep in mind the tail it has.
19:16:42 <kford> zakim, close item 3
19:16:42 <Zakim> agendum 3, Discuss Simon's proposal on 1.2 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0039.html, closed
19:16:44 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:16:44 <Zakim> 2. review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones [from JAllan]
19:16:49 <kford> zakim, take up item 2
19:16:49 <Zakim> agendum 2. "review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones" taken up [from JAllan]
19:16:50 <jeanne> action: jeanne to write an SC to substitute for 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 that gives the user the ability to request the meta data available for an object, 
19:16:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-712 - Write an SC to substitute for 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 that gives the user the ability to request the meta data available for an object,  [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-02-09].
19:18:06 <Zakim> -Jeanne
19:18:39 <JAllan> kf: we need to review this. reply to the list by end of the week. 
19:19:22 <JAllan> kp: would be great if folks would write examples in the SC that apply to mobile.
19:19:42 <JAllan> gl: don't all of the SC apply to mobile?
19:20:15 <JAllan> kp: we only did the SC that apply to mobile. now we need examples
19:21:16 <JAllan> kf: WAI overall is being asked about mobile a11y,, this is the first pass at speaking to mobile a11y
19:21:53 <JAllan> ...jeanne was going to work on exec summary. we as a group need to say we stand behind this.
19:23:00 <JAllan> gl: should be 'mobile devices' not just phones
19:23:14 <JAllan> gl: hear an issue about lack of focus
19:24:03 <JAllan> ja; tooltips?
19:25:05 <JAllan> gl: important to not make global statements.
19:25:31 <Greg> Because there are few things that are universal to mobile devices, much less unique to them.
19:25:39 <JAllan> kp: this is a draft of things we thought applied to mobile.  there is a lot that needs to be filled in.
19:27:22 <kford> zakim, close item 2
19:27:22 <Zakim> agendum 2, review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones, closed
19:27:24 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
19:27:24 <Zakim> 4. Review other proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
19:27:45 <Greg> The document should also clearly differentiate between current status (e.g. most mobile platforms may lack a certain feature) vs. those few thing that are inherent to mobile devices or unlikely to be eventually be implemented.
19:28:13 <JAllan> zakim, close item 2
19:28:13 <Zakim> agendum 2, review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones, closed
19:28:16 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
19:28:16 <Zakim> 4. Review other proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
19:29:14 <JAllan> kf: not going to address item 4, 
19:29:19 <Zakim> -sharper
19:29:23 <Zakim> -Kim_Patch
19:29:37 <Zakim> -Jim_Allan
19:29:42 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
19:29:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:30:20 <JAllan> zakim, please part
19:30:20 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Jan, Greg, Jeanne, Jim_Allan, kford, Kim_Patch, sharper
19:30:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
19:30:39 <JAllan> rrsagent make minutes
19:30:46 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
19:30:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:31:13 <JAllan> rrsagent, please part
19:31:13 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-ua-actions.rdf :
19:31:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jeanne to write an SC to substitute for 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 that gives the user the ability to request the meta data available for an object,  [1]
19:31:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-ua-irc#T19-16-50