IRC log of ua on 2012-02-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:32:18 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:32:18 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:32:20 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:32:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:32:22 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:32:22 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
17:32:23 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:32:23 [trackbot]
Date: 02 February 2012
17:32:45 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:33:05 [JAllan]
chair: Kelly Ford, Jim Allan
17:57:19 [kford]
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17:57:59 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:59:33 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:59:41 [Zakim]
17:59:46 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:59:46 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
18:00:08 [Zakim]
18:01:15 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:01:46 [Zakim]
18:02:08 [Jan]
zakim, ??P18 is really Jan
18:02:08 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:02:19 [Greg]
zakim, ??p12 is Greg
18:02:19 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
18:02:41 [Zakim]
18:02:44 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
18:02:47 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Discussion on guideline levels
18:02:48 [JAllan]
agenda+ review mobile wiki page
18:02:50 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Discuss Simon's proposal on 1.2
18:02:51 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review other proposals sent to list
18:03:02 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:03:02 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:03:02 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:03:04 [Zakim]
1. Discussion on guideline levels [from JAllan]
18:03:04 [Zakim]
2. review mobile wiki page [from JAllan]
18:03:04 [Zakim]
3. Discuss Simon's proposal on 1.2 [from JAllan]
18:03:06 [Zakim]
4. Review other proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:03:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Greg, [Microsoft], Jan, Jeanne
18:03:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jeanne, Jan, Greg, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
18:03:20 [Zakim]
18:05:04 [Jan]
zakim, [Microsoft] is really kford
18:05:04 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
18:05:05 [sharper]
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18:06:30 [JAllan]
scribe: JAllan
18:06:54 [Zakim]
18:07:05 [Zakim]
18:07:07 [JAllan]
all: discussion of current ANPRM comments due in March
18:07:19 [sharper]
zakim, ??P5 is sharper
18:07:19 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:07:34 [JAllan]
regrets: Mark
18:08:07 [JAllan]
present: Greg, Jeanne, Kelly, Jan, Jim, Kim, Simon
18:08:21 [KimPatch]
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18:11:14 [Greg]
Greg described how the Section 508 refresh incorporates WCAG 2.0 for all content and for software user interfaces.
18:11:34 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:11:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
18:11:52 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
18:11:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Discussion on guideline levels" taken up [from JAllan]
18:12:00 [JAllan]
18:12:18 [JAllan]
18:12:43 [jeanne]
18:13:21 [JAllan]
js: above is stuff Jeanne and Kim worked on, following Wayne's comments
18:13:52 [JAllan] to improve the consistency and transparency
18:14:32 [JAllan]
... with objectiveness. thought of mathematical formula.
18:15:15 [JAllan]
js: above only a draft. use this to evaluate current SC levels to see how they compare. tweak as needed
18:15:30 [JAllan]
js: 4 levels
18:15:58 [JAllan]
...severity of barrier -- prevented from doing =5 ...slows=1
18:17:12 [JAllan]
...number of different groups that an SC benefits. (trying to use numbers of peoples not beneficial), this needs more work
18:17:52 [JAllan]
...need better taxonomy of disabilities. JTC1 has only 6 categories.
18:18:36 [Jan]
+1 to Jim
18:19:08 [JAllan]
ja: what about using functional limitations rather than disabilities
18:19:44 [JAllan]
js: need to find something we can reference, to limit rangling
18:20:22 [JAllan]
gl: why do we need formalized levels.
18:20:54 [Jan]
BTW: ATAG's approach:
18:21:59 [JAllan]
js: discussions with Judy. WCAG does not have definitions of levels, suggested ATAG and UAAG have them
18:22:45 [JAllan]
jr: concerns about using groups. flashing only benefits one group
18:23:17 [JAllan]
flashing is also good for cognitive and distraction issues
18:24:52 [sharper]
Interesting ...
18:25:36 [JAllan]
jr: validates Kim's statement about rating SC based on knowledge of disability of a particular group
18:26:05 [JAllan]
... trying to elimate judgement calls, all of these things will have gray area.
18:26:36 [JAllan]
kf: concerned about making rating system public. concerned about everyone debugging it.
18:27:06 [JAllan]
... its a tough problem
18:27:42 [JAllan]
kp: what are each of our top 5 SC for the group of users each of us knows best
18:28:07 [JAllan]
... would be a good exercise
18:28:19 [JAllan]
... so all could better judge.
18:28:23 [sharper]
World Health Organisation International Classification of Functioning, Disability and Health (ICF)
18:28:33 [sharper]
18:29:17 [JAllan]
sh: use WHO or UNESCO classifications. they are quantitative on a continuum
18:29:52 [JAllan]
... use these metrics to define what we are talking about. WHO and others are pretty bulky, may need a subset
18:30:32 [JAllan]
kp: would be good to have users read the guidelines and give their opinions
18:31:00 [JAllan]
sh: large portion of AT is discarded after 3 months
18:32:18 [sharper]
Check list is here
18:32:34 [JAllan]
js: don't listen to what users say they want, watch then and see what they need
18:33:30 [JAllan]
gl: need an exercise for justification of levels. quick review of ATAG was good.
18:33:38 [JAllan]
js: 2 other areas
18:33:54 [JAllan]
... existing implementions (number of)
18:34:38 [JAllan]
... feasibility (deterministic vs inferential).
18:35:05 [JAllan]
gl: what about things that make things worse for a different group of user (disabled or not)
18:36:00 [JAllan]
... e.g. a guideline says always does X, contrast level above xys, but there are people who dont need that.
18:36:33 [JAllan]
... concern about negative impact average users.
18:36:50 [JAllan]
js: these is good, but need to address the weight.
18:37:03 [jeanne]
negative impact - benefits one group vs. another group (including mainstream users)
18:37:19 [JAllan]
kp: depends on how it is implemented.
18:37:56 [JAllan]
kf: if we use this, how do we get from todays stuff to a different criteria for levels
18:38:26 [JAllan]
js: use the criteria to complete kims spreadsheet
18:38:38 [JAllan]
... just try it.
18:39:24 [JAllan]
kf: you and kim try it? or all of us?
18:39:40 [JAllan]
js: more is better
18:40:26 [JAllan]
js: if you have specific concerns about SC do those
18:40:44 [JAllan]
kf: don't want this to be a 3 month project.
18:41:12 [JAllan]
js: RIGHT!! don't want total review, and start editing, etc.
18:41:27 [JAllan]
kf: what do you need to set up the columns etc.
18:42:13 [JAllan]
kp: easy to set up simple version, ping everyone.
18:42:29 [JAllan]
js: need to have this done by next week.
18:42:54 [JAllan]
kf: some SC have changed. the spreadsheet is out of date.
18:43:42 [JAllan]
discussion of gregs converter. to generate new spreadsheet
18:46:28 [JAllan]
gl: are we planning on doing the exercise, 4 columns of the criteria.
18:47:01 [Zakim]
18:47:20 [sharper]
zakim, who is making noise?
18:47:30 [Greg]
Would be nice if your data could be converted to reader-friendly “significantly improves efficiency for people with difficulty typing” and “removes absolute barrier for people without vision”, etc.
18:47:30 [Zakim]
sharper, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Greg (5%)
18:47:42 [sharper]
zakim, who is making noise?
18:47:55 [Zakim]
sharper, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Kim_Patch (27%), Jim_Allan (13%)
18:48:08 [kford]
zakim, who's making noise
18:48:08 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's making noise', kford
18:48:41 [JAllan]
gl: would be nice if the creiteria could be stated in human readable sentences
18:48:59 [JAllan]
kp: its going to be numbers.
18:49:26 [JAllan]
gl: need statements to reflect (annotate) the numbers
18:50:26 [JAllan]
discussion of last weeks edits
18:51:28 [JAllan]
discussion of currency of the draft to make spreadsheet
18:55:42 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
18:55:42 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Discussion on guideline levels, closed
18:55:43 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:55:43 [Zakim]
2. review mobile wiki page [from JAllan]
18:55:59 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:55:59 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:56:01 [Zakim]
2. review mobile wiki page [from JAllan]
18:56:01 [Zakim]
3. Discuss Simon's proposal on 1.2 [from JAllan]
18:56:01 [Zakim]
4. Review other proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:56:15 [kford]
zakim, take up item 3
18:56:15 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Discuss Simon's proposal on 1.2" taken up [from JAllan]
18:57:52 [JAllan]
sh: lots of discussion last week about 2.1. took actions to review. if we combine then we do a disservice to users. all will be AAA
18:58:48 [JAllan]
...add user into the mix. and combine and make it A as follows
18:59:00 [JAllan]
1.2.1 In situations where missing or empty alternative content or
18:59:02 [JAllan]
associations can be identified, the user agent will provide notify when
18:59:03 [JAllan]
the element achieves focus, and upon their request, will relate all
18:59:05 [JAllan]
available metadata to the user, enabling the user to take appropriate
18:59:06 [JAllan]
alternative action.
19:00:16 [JAllan]
sh: the UA notifies the user of a problem, its up to the user to find something to make the missing content make sense.
19:00:28 [JAllan]
19:01:13 [JAllan]
sh: I am recommending this
19:01:54 [JAllan]
ja: +1
19:02:18 [JAllan]
gl: a bit confused, not sure we want to dive in to it now.
19:03:46 [JAllan]
sh: there will be no repair. if something is missing then tell the user, and tell user available metadata.
19:04:05 [JAllan]
gl: but this would be good everywhere.
19:05:11 [JAllan]
sh: then we change the wording. to say something is missing, use this other mechanism to read all the available metadata available
19:05:59 [JAllan]
ja: like finding hashed passwords on the web
19:06:54 [JAllan]
gl: some user click on an object to get all the metadata. this could be useful for all users.
19:07:53 [JAllan]
sh: e.g. something is missing, I can id all things complete, I need to be able to find all things that are missing something.
19:08:05 [JAllan]
... then give me all the other available info.
19:08:59 [JAllan]
sh: agree that getting metadata on everything is good. but also need to be able to get info about objects that are missing data
19:09:31 [jeanne]
q+ to ask about alt=""
19:11:57 [JAllan]
ja: like this.
19:12:03 [jeanne]
19:12:10 [JAllan]
kf: gives the user control,
19:12:57 [JAllan]
kp: this is good. human brain better at figuring somethings out.
19:13:03 [JAllan]
kf: now what?
19:13:12 [JAllan]
ja: just put it in the doc.
19:13:29 [JAllan]
sh: let greg write up his thoughts
19:13:46 [JAllan]
kf: any objections to this direction?
19:13:49 [JAllan]
none heard
19:14:12 [JAllan]
kf: what happens to the intents and examples in the current doc.
19:14:24 [JAllan]
... and the spreadsheet.
19:14:45 [JAllan] we try to lock down, we keep in mind the tail it has.
19:16:42 [kford]
zakim, close item 3
19:16:42 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Discuss Simon's proposal on 1.2, closed
19:16:44 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:16:44 [Zakim]
2. review mobile wiki page [from JAllan]
19:16:49 [kford]
zakim, take up item 2
19:16:49 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "review mobile wiki page" taken up [from JAllan]
19:16:50 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to write an SC to substitute for 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 that gives the user the ability to request the meta data available for an object,
19:16:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-712 - Write an SC to substitute for 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 that gives the user the ability to request the meta data available for an object, [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-02-09].
19:18:06 [Zakim]
19:18:39 [JAllan]
kf: we need to review this. reply to the list by end of the week.
19:19:22 [JAllan]
kp: would be great if folks would write examples in the SC that apply to mobile.
19:19:42 [JAllan]
gl: don't all of the SC apply to mobile?
19:20:15 [JAllan]
kp: we only did the SC that apply to mobile. now we need examples
19:21:16 [JAllan]
kf: WAI overall is being asked about mobile a11y,, this is the first pass at speaking to mobile a11y
19:21:53 [JAllan]
...jeanne was going to work on exec summary. we as a group need to say we stand behind this.
19:23:00 [JAllan]
gl: should be 'mobile devices' not just phones
19:23:14 [JAllan]
gl: hear an issue about lack of focus
19:24:03 [JAllan]
ja; tooltips?
19:25:05 [JAllan]
gl: important to not make global statements.
19:25:31 [Greg]
Because there are few things that are universal to mobile devices, much less unique to them.
19:25:39 [JAllan]
kp: this is a draft of things we thought applied to mobile. there is a lot that needs to be filled in.
19:27:22 [kford]
zakim, close item 2
19:27:22 [Zakim]
agendum 2, review mobile wiki page, closed
19:27:24 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
19:27:24 [Zakim]
4. Review other proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
19:27:45 [Greg]
The document should also clearly differentiate between current status (e.g. most mobile platforms may lack a certain feature) vs. those few thing that are inherent to mobile devices or unlikely to be eventually be implemented.
19:28:13 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 2
19:28:13 [Zakim]
agendum 2, review mobile wiki page, closed
19:28:16 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
19:28:16 [Zakim]
4. Review other proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
19:29:14 [JAllan]
kf: not going to address item 4,
19:29:19 [Zakim]
19:29:23 [Zakim]
19:29:37 [Zakim]
19:29:42 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:29:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JAllan
19:30:20 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
19:30:20 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jan, Greg, Jeanne, Jim_Allan, kford, Kim_Patch, sharper
19:30:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:30:39 [JAllan]
rrsagent make minutes
19:30:46 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:30:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JAllan
19:31:13 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
19:31:13 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
19:31:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to write an SC to substitute for 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 that gives the user the ability to request the meta data available for an object, [1]
19:31:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in