IRC log of tagmem on 2012-02-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:42:46 [RRSAgent]

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17:42:46 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-tagmem-irc

17:42:47 [Larry]

conference is restricted?

17:43:00 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #tagmem

17:43:07 [jar]

zakim, this will be tag

17:43:07 [Zakim]

ok, jar; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes

17:43:50 [jar]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/Overview.html was not on required reading list for today

17:44:12 [Larry]

i didn't think it should be

17:56:16 [JeniT]

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17:57:05 [JeniT]

trackbot, start telcon

17:57:08 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

17:57:10 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be TAG

17:57:10 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

17:57:11 [trackbot]

Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

17:57:11 [trackbot]

Date: 02 February 2012

17:57:29 [JeniT]

Scribe: Jeni Tennison

17:57:34 [JeniT]

ScribeNick: JeniT

17:57:36 [Zakim]

TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started

17:57:40 [noah]

noah has joined #tagmem

17:57:42 [Zakim]

+Masinter

17:58:04 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

17:58:59 [JeniT]

Regrets: Ashok Malhotra, Peter Linss, Dan Appelquist

17:59:18 [JeniT]

Chair: Noah Mendelsohn

17:59:26 [Zakim]

+Noah_Mendelsohn

17:59:43 [noah]

zakim, Noah_Mendelsohn is me

17:59:43 [Zakim]

+noah; got it

17:59:48 [noah]

zakim, who is talking?

17:59:59 [Zakim]

noah, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Masinter (39%)

18:00:04 [JeniT]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/02/02-agenda

18:00:13 [Zakim]

+jar

18:00:43 [JeniT]

Topic: Convene

18:00:58 [Zakim]

+plinss

18:01:11 [noah]

zakim, who is here?

18:01:11 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Masinter, JeniT, noah, jar, plinss

18:01:13 [Zakim]

On IRC I see noah, JeniT, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar, Larry, darobin, timbl, plinss, trackbot, Yves

18:01:24 [Zakim]

+ +33.1.43.14.aaaa

18:01:38 [darobin]

Zakim, aaaa is me

18:01:38 [Zakim]

+darobin; got it

18:02:13 [noah]

zakim, who is here?

18:02:13 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Masinter, JeniT, noah, jar, plinss, darobin

18:02:15 [Zakim]

On IRC I see noah, JeniT, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar, Larry, darobin, timbl, plinss, trackbot, Yves

18:02:30 [ht]

ht has joined #tagmem

18:03:54 [JeniT]

Regrets: Ashok, Peter (partial), Jeni (partial)

18:04:12 [Zakim]

+??P26

18:04:15 [JeniT]

plinss: possible regrets next week

18:06:12 [JeniT]

noah: Storage discussion will be on agenda next week

18:06:30 [JeniT]

Larry: confirm scribe next week

18:06:39 [JeniT]

Topic: Approve minutes of prior meeting(s)

18:07:23 [JeniT]

RESOLUTION: Approve minutes of 26 January 2012 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/01/26-minutes

18:07:38 [JeniT]

noah: still missing minutes of 19 January 2012

18:07:41 [noah]

zakim, who is here?

18:07:41 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Masinter, JeniT, noah, jar, plinss, darobin, ht

18:07:42 [Zakim]

On IRC I see ht, noah, JeniT, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar, Larry, darobin, timbl, plinss, trackbot, Yves

18:07:52 [JeniT]

Topic: Administrative items

18:08:12 [JeniT]

noah: wanted to check on status of HTML/XML unification report, and on client-side state work, wait for Yves

18:08:43 [JeniT]

... also waiting on Dan to provide a section on web apps for report for Jeff

18:09:14 [jar]

I urge to expedite

18:09:15 [JeniT]

darobin: I can email Dan and see what he has, and try to finalise it

18:09:18 [Zakim]

+Yves

18:10:00 [JeniT]

noah: context is Jeff asked for warning about topics that are high-risk

18:10:13 [JeniT]

... we went through list at last F2F

18:10:24 [JeniT]

... Dan's was on native apps vs web apps on mobile devices

18:10:46 [JeniT]

noah: Yves, we have two notes pending, can you tell us status?

18:11:02 [JeniT]

Yves: I've done modifications and am waiting for final OK to request publication on Raman's note

18:11:19 [JeniT]

... The HTML/XML report has to get approval, hopefully published Tues

18:11:47 [JeniT]

noah: any objections to Yves' draft?

18:12:28 [Yves]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/01/note/hashinuri.html

18:12:38 [noah]

. RESOLUTION: TAG asks Yves to go ahead and publish note based on Raman's client-side FPWD, and we approve the latest frontmatter from Yves' email

18:12:55 [jar]

+1

18:12:59 [JeniT]

+1

18:13:03 [noah]

RESOLUTION: TAG asks Yves to go ahead and publish note based on Raman's client-side FPWD, and we approve the latest frontmatter from Yves' email

18:13:07 [Zakim]

+TimBL

18:13:51 [JeniT]

Topic: ISSUE-66 (mimeAndWeb-66-27): MIME and the Web

18:15:19 [JeniT]

Larry: I'm at the end of what I can do on these actions alone

18:15:30 [JeniT]

... they might not be done, but I need guidance from the rest of the TAG about how to take them forward

18:15:48 [JeniT]

noah: we have been doing work on mime on the web for quite some time

18:15:58 [JeniT]

... first round resulted in Larry publishing IETF draft

18:16:19 [JeniT]

... proposal was whether we should do more

18:16:19 [Larry]

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-masinter-mime-web-info-02

18:16:54 [jar]

q?

18:17:43 [Larry]

action-531?

18:17:43 [trackbot]

ACTION-531 -- Larry Masinter to draft document on architectural good practice relating to registries -- due 2011-12-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW

18:17:43 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/531

18:17:57 [JeniT]

noah: I think Larry wants help here?

18:18:07 [timbl]

timbl has joined #tagmem

18:18:08 [JeniT]

Larry: the feedback I got was that maybe there was work on registeries we could do

18:18:22 [JeniT]

... from the evolution document

18:18:38 [Larry]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/Registries.html

18:18:55 [JeniT]

JeniT: I thought it was interesting and good work, that I thought we should move forward

18:19:02 [jar]

jeni is saying what I was going to say: It's good work, ought to be continued

18:19:16 [JeniT]

Larry: this tries to separate out issues about evolution, references and persistence

18:19:33 [JeniT]

... we have work on persistence, establishing meaning of URIs, and identifiers that are URIs or identifiers in a registry

18:19:49 [JeniT]

... we have some practices around registries that, in the IETF, the registries are managed by IANA

18:19:56 [JeniT]

... so there are some documents about IANA registries

18:20:09 [JeniT]

... but W3C could sponsor other registries that weren't IANA registries

18:20:10 [jar]

managed by IANA *under IETF direction*, right?...

18:20:16 [JeniT]

... and maybe there's more to say about that

18:20:35 [JeniT]

... I felt like maybe it's a paper for 'Philosophy and the Web' rather than a TAG topic

18:20:45 [JeniT]

... I'd like to collaborate with someone else on it

18:21:04 [JeniT]

noah: so, there's whether the work shows up as a TAG finding or in a workshop

18:21:13 [JeniT]

... and there's whether you do it alone or who's with you

18:21:22 [JeniT]

... and any set of combinations makes sense

18:21:26 [JeniT]

... so what's your preference?

18:21:33 [JeniT]

Larry: I'd like someone else to lead and let me follow

18:21:36 [Larry]

i'd like someone else to lead and i'll follow

18:22:47 [JeniT]

noah: is there anyone on the call who would like to do it?

18:23:10 [JeniT]

ht: "this" is the general status of registries, the goal of registries in web architecture?

18:23:14 [Larry]

in particular start with http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/Registries.html

18:23:20 [JeniT]

timbl: is it with the same scope as that draft?

18:23:33 [noah]

I heard him say "yes, that scope"

18:23:51 [JeniT]

Larry: yes, as in that document

18:24:20 [noah]

JT: Pick me, but only after the publishing and linking is done

18:24:44 [JeniT]

noah: Publishing & Linking is the one that worries me about winding up needing multiple tries

18:25:04 [JeniT]

... I'm worried that if you can't overlap them then this will really put off work on registries

18:25:57 [JeniT]

JT: I'm interested, but can't take on more work right now

18:26:02 [jar]

ditto

18:26:03 [Larry]

mainly i want to close this action item

18:26:12 [timbl]

I am happy to review it, but can't lead

18:26:30 [JeniT]

Larry: let's close the action item, and if someone else takes it on, open another action item

18:27:01 [JeniT]

noah: we'll close this action, and I'll take a long-term action that when the copyrighting/linking stuff wraps, we can talk about Jeni taking this on

18:27:03 [JeniT]

+1

18:27:10 [noah]

close ACTION-531

18:27:10 [trackbot]

ACTION-531 Draft document on architectural good practice relating to registries closed

18:27:40 [noah]

ACTION: Noah to check, when publishing and linking wraps, whether it's time to reinvest in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/Registries.html

18:27:40 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-667 - Check, when publishing and linking wraps, whether it's time to reinvest in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/Registries.html [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2012-02-09].

18:28:00 [noah]

ACTION-667 Due 2012-04-01

18:28:00 [trackbot]

ACTION-667 Check, when publishing and linking wraps, whether it's time to reinvest in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/Registries.html due date now 2012-04-01

18:28:13 [noah]

ACTION-595?

18:28:13 [trackbot]

ACTION-595 -- Larry Masinter to draft a report on Mime and the Web -- due 2012-01-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW

18:28:13 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/595

18:28:36 [noah]

NM: Your thoughts, Larry?

18:29:20 [JeniT]

Larry: mime provides a way of giving a persistent name for a language, which is different from a persistent name for a specification

18:29:35 [JeniT]

... it's another issue where I think I understand it, but I don't know what we as a group want to say about it

18:29:45 [JeniT]

... I get the impression that other TAG members aren't really into this

18:29:59 [JeniT]

... that it's on the periphery

18:30:14 [JeniT]

timbl: I don't think it's on the periphery, I think that these are important

18:30:16 [noah]

q+ to talk about worries about versioning

18:30:36 [noah]

ack next

18:30:37 [JeniT]

... other issues such as Javascript modules interact, and RDFa and HTML, which are more salient (?)

18:30:37 [Zakim]

noah, you wanted to talk about worries about versioning

18:30:38 [Larry]

should we wait until we're done with registries to tackle mime?

18:31:02 [JeniT]

noah: I'm interested, but I'm worried that it leads into territory that the TAG has shown itself to not be good at closing on

18:31:21 [JeniT]

... I thought the specific thing about the registration of media types where the specifications evolve

18:31:36 [JeniT]

... lots of people think they know how it works, but we all think about it differently

18:31:49 [jar]

jenit, timbl said: rdfa and html are more topical (current), compared to mime, which is a keystone

18:31:55 [JeniT]

... it's not lack of interest, just a sense that I'm not confident that we could get there

18:32:19 [Larry]

maybe 'versioning' has become a bogeyman for the TAG? aversion to versioning

18:32:28 [jar]

q?

18:32:30 [JeniT]

... if we could do something in 2-4 pages that was a how-to, then that would be great work

18:32:36 [JeniT]

... but I think we'd thrash on it

18:32:59 [JeniT]

jar: I'd like the more scientific approach rather than the prescriptive approach

18:33:07 [JeniT]

... I think someone should write it down

18:33:19 [JeniT]

noah: that's why I thought a wiki would be a good space to start

18:33:28 [JeniT]

... but we didn't get to an agreement on how to do that

18:33:43 [JeniT]

... the default is to close it and walk away

18:34:00 [JeniT]

Larry: one thing to do, once we've done registries, we could take another task on the mime registry in particular

18:34:08 [JeniT]

... it's the media type registry that's of interest here

18:34:23 [Larry]

well, and the charset registry

18:34:36 [Larry]

and the 'willful violation' issues around registries whose values are ignored for some purposes

18:34:58 [JeniT]

noah: minute that we might want to revisit the issues of mime and mime registration after the registries work is done

18:35:12 [JeniT]

Larry: yes, add media type and charset registries to the reminder

18:35:37 [Larry]

there's http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/MIME.html

18:35:44 [JeniT]

noah: why don't you take responsibility to make sure that's included in scope when we look at registries

18:36:03 [JeniT]

Larry: there is a document on MIME in particular (linked here)

18:36:24 [JeniT]

... which points to the registry document, and raises specific issues around what MIME tries to name, and polyglot/multi-views etc

18:36:36 [JeniT]

... some of the issues that would have to be done in a full exposition of MIME and the web

18:36:53 [JeniT]

... so this document is a draft of what such a report might look like

18:37:35 [JeniT]

noah: I thought the point was to not do the MIME-specific stuff, except in so far as it informs the general story

18:37:37 [noah]

ACTION-595?

18:37:37 [trackbot]

ACTION-595 -- Larry Masinter to draft a report on Mime and the Web -- due 2012-01-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW

18:37:37 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/595

18:37:59 [noah]

NM: Right, and we're proposing to put that off until at least after the general registries work is done, right?

18:38:21 [JeniT]

Larry: I've added a link in that action item to the report

18:38:28 [JeniT]

... so the action item is done

18:39:15 [JeniT]

noah: usually a draft means that we're going to carry it forward, but I think you're saying put that draft down for now

18:39:30 [JeniT]

Larry: yes, until someone else wants to do the work on turning that into a TAG document

18:39:38 [JeniT]

noah: is there anyone else who wants to pick this up?

18:39:52 [Larry]

and perhaps this is to just serialize this work so that the tag can take up things one at a time

18:40:19 [JeniT]

Larry: basically there's a big raft of work and we need to focus on one thing at a time

18:40:34 [JeniT]

... taking it up after doing registries is fine

18:41:01 [JeniT]

noah: how should we track this?

18:41:30 [noah]

close ACTION-595

18:41:30 [trackbot]

ACTION-595 Draft a report on Mime and the Web closed

18:42:10 [JeniT]

JT: suggest long-term action

18:42:13 [noah]

ACTION: Noah to eventually, probably after registries work is done, ask whether TAG wants to reinvest in MIME/Web Due 2013-01-31

18:42:13 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-668 - Eventually, probably after registries work is done, ask whether TAG wants to reinvest in MIME/Web Due 2013-01-31 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2012-02-09].

18:42:26 [Larry]

might put http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/MIME.html in -668 as a starting point

18:42:31 [noah]

ACTION-668 Due 2013-01-31

18:42:31 [trackbot]

ACTION-668 Eventually, probably after registries work is done, ask whether TAG wants to reinvest in MIME/Web Due 2013-01-31 due date now 2013-01-31

18:42:41 [noah]

ACTION-636?

18:42:41 [trackbot]

ACTION-636 -- Larry Masinter to update product page for Mime and the Web -- due 2012-01-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW

18:42:41 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/636

18:43:07 [JeniT]

noah: purpose of project pages is to set down goals/dates/success criteria on big work

18:43:12 [JeniT]

... we have draft pages on mime work

18:43:29 [JeniT]

... my impression is that it doesn't tell the story of the first round of work, about the IETF draft

18:43:46 [JeniT]

... I think it would be good to include that, and talk about what future work we might do

18:43:55 [JeniT]

... such as registries

18:44:09 [JeniT]

+1

18:44:18 [JeniT]

ScribeNick: jar

18:44:25 [Zakim]

-JeniT

18:44:28 [Larry]

the product page depends on waht others are willing to do, which i didn' thave a good view

18:45:14 [jar]

lm: the product page is a commitment, so since there is no commitment - well, let's turn it into a wrapup page.

18:45:35 [jar]

noah: Briefly tell the story of the successful work that happened

18:45:54 [jar]

noah: Say we considered another round, and this is just on hold

18:46:03 [Larry]

action-636

18:46:10 [Larry]

action-636?

18:46:10 [trackbot]

ACTION-636 -- Larry Masinter to update product page for Mime and the Web -- due 2012-01-17 -- OPEN

18:46:10 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/636

18:46:28 [noah]

ACTION-636 Due 2012-02-03

18:46:28 [trackbot]

ACTION-636 Update product page for Mime and the Web due date now 2012-02-03

18:46:45 [jar]

noah: thank you

18:46:55 [Larry]

ok

18:47:18 [jar]

topic: References to specifications that may update

18:47:20 [Larry]

action-350?

18:47:20 [trackbot]

ACTION-350 -- Larry Masinter to revise http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Oct/0075.html based on feedback on www-tag and the feedback from TAG f2f 2009-12-09 discussion -- due 2011-11-29 -- PENDINGREVIEW

18:47:20 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/350

18:47:24 [noah]

ACTION-350?

18:47:24 [trackbot]

ACTION-350 -- Larry Masinter to revise http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Oct/0075.html based on feedback on www-tag and the feedback from TAG f2f 2009-12-09 discussion -- due 2011-11-29 -- PENDINGREVIEW

18:47:24 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/350

18:47:42 [noah]

"Best practice for referring to specifications which may update" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Oct/0075.html

18:47:42 [jar]

noah: Henry had written ...

18:48:19 [jar]

noah: Larry took action 350, where he came up with a different approach

18:48:49 [jar]

lm: I can't say it's an alternate proposal - I just didn't like where it was going

18:49:16 [Larry]

i didn't really think i had something 'better' except a direction

18:49:19 [noah]

I put Larry's proposed test in an e-mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2012Jan/0043.html

18:50:01 [jar]

noah: some people liked Larry's writeup more than others. left off with discussion of QA group's rec

18:51:11 [jar]

lm: action started in 2009. we talked, investigated. I suggested closing.

18:51:25 [Larry]

http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#ref-define-practice

18:51:37 [noah]

Thanks Larry

18:51:38 [jar]

ht: I need to review in more detail

18:52:03 [jar]

ht: what I wrote was what I understood to be practice that several WGs have been following

18:52:38 [jar]

… so those wgs were not following the QA advice -or maybe I did a poor job of reconstructing their practices?

18:53:01 [jar]

… I can't contribute to a decision since I haven't formed an opinion

18:53:19 [jar]

lm: ht to take an action?

18:53:34 [noah]

HT: I'd only get to it this summer, but will do it if you like. Else you can close it.

18:53:41 [noah]

NM: Preferences? Worth waiting that long?

18:53:42 [jar]

ht: sure, but understand that there's no rush, sodue maybe this summer.

18:54:57 [noah]

. ACTION: Henry to review http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#ref-define-practice and see whether TAG needs to do more on references to evolving specs

18:55:22 [noah]

ACTION: Henry to review http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#ref-define-practice and see whether TAG needs to do more on references to evolving specs Due: 2012-08-01

18:55:22 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-669 - Review http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#ref-define-practice and see whether TAG needs to do more on references to evolving specs Due: 2012-08-01 [on Henry Thompson - due 2012-02-09].

18:56:25 [noah]

close ACTION-530

18:56:25 [trackbot]

ACTION-530 Draft slides for IETF meeting, with help from Larry Due 2011-02-22 closed

18:56:52 [jar]

topic: HTML5 Last Call

18:56:57 [noah]

ACTION-644?

18:56:57 [trackbot]

ACTION-644 -- Larry Masinter to draft proposed alternative text to e-mail announcing end of "product" work on HTML 5 last call ( https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011Dec/0041.html ) Due 2012-01-10 -- due 2012-01-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

18:56:57 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/644

18:57:55 [jar]

noah: I wrote draft email announcement, LM revised it

18:58:11 [jar]

noah: I'm fine with LM's

18:58:43 [jar]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/html5review.html ?

18:59:07 [noah]

Draft page from Larry: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/html5review

18:59:57 [noah]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/html5review-2011-12-21.html

19:00:17 [Larry]

you already did that, Noah

19:00:59 [noah]

close ACTION-644

19:00:59 [trackbot]

ACTION-644 Draft proposed alternative text to e-mail announcing end of "product" work on HTML 5 last call ( https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011Dec/0041.html ) Due 2012-01-10 closed

19:01:00 [jar]

noah: all done here.

19:01:12 [Larry]

this was done a long time ago, we just overlooked closing the action

19:01:24 [Zakim]

-plinss

19:01:27 [noah]

topic: Mime/Web

19:01:32 [noah]

Please look at: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/index-2012-01-12.html

19:01:40 [jar]

topic: MIME and the Web product

19:02:17 [jar]

noah: No longer a priority product, OK?

19:02:55 [noah]

. RESOLUTION: The TAG is closing its work on MIME/Web, noting successful completion of 1st round of work

19:02:56 [Larry]

we'll do that after TAG reviews the final product page

19:02:58 [jar]

lm: Let me finish product page and get review before dropping priority?

19:03:34 [noah]

. RESOLUTION: The TAG is closing its work on MIME/Web, noting successful completion of 1st round of work. Product priority list to be updated after closing product page approved.

19:03:50 [noah]

RESOLUTION: The TAG is closing its work on MIME/Web, noting successful completion of 1st round of work. Product priority list to be updated after closing product page approved.

19:04:18 [noah]

. ACTION: Noah to update product priority list to mark MIMEWeb completed after final product page available Due 2012-03-01

19:04:24 [noah]

ACTION: Noah to update product priority list to mark MIMEWeb completed after final product page available Due 2012-03-01

19:04:24 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-670 - Update product priority list to mark MIMEWeb completed after final product page available Due 2012-03-01 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2012-02-09].

19:05:17 [jar]

topic: Pending review items

19:05:32 [noah]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview?sort=owner

19:06:42 [Yves]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2012Feb/0021.html

19:06:45 [darobin]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/apiminimization-2012-02-02.html

19:06:46 [noah]

HT: Maybe discuss e-mail from robin http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2012Feb/0021.html

19:07:33 [noah]

Product page draft is at: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/apiminimization-2012-02-02.html

19:08:23 [noah]

q+ to make a chair's comment on scope\

19:09:11 [noah]

ack next

19:09:12 [Zakim]

noah, you wanted to make a chair's comment on scope\

19:09:22 [jar]

oops forgot to scribe, listening too hard.

19:09:41 [jar]

rb: Broadened scope [see cover email linked from minutes]

19:09:46 [darobin]

just a little bit of background on fingerprinting if it helps: http://panopticlick.eff.org/

19:09:57 [jar]

rb: … that would make the finding more coherent.

19:10:11 [jar]

q+ jar to push back a tiny bit

19:11:01 [jar]

noah: I'd prefer to get this little piece out sooner, then broader thing as followon

19:12:00 [jar]

rb: I understand, but I''m fairly confident that (a) can draft before next f2f, (b) problem with only minimization is that it is not timely - not relevant to APIs currently be designed - fingerprinting is a priority

19:12:28 [jar]

… designs of APIs have changed since we started looking at this

19:12:49 [jar]

… not a huge difference in workload to tackle entire thing instead of just part of it

19:13:13 [jar]

noah: There's a bad history behind this general approach.

19:13:16 [noah]

ack next

19:13:18 [Zakim]

jar, you wanted to push back a tiny bit

19:13:29 [Zakim]

-ht

19:13:44 [Larry]

there's more to API minimization tahn what we're talking about

19:14:08 [noah]

JAR: I don't disagree with any of that, but... it seems to me fingerprinting is different from minimization. Not convinced it has to do with privacy. Not sure others agree. I tend to feel things that are mainly technical in practice feel more like security than privacy.

19:14:21 [jar]

rb: minimization is on the fence between security and privacy

19:14:23 [noah]

RB: I somewhat agree. It's a bit on the fence between the two.

19:14:38 [Larry]

for example, geopriv in IETF took a policy approach that all locale information should be accompanied by an minimal expiration policy and a distribution policy . API minimization is only one part

19:15:07 [Larry]

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-geopriv-policy-25

19:15:31 [noah]

NM: Continue or take it to e-mail...this was an unplanned discussion

19:15:44 [noah]

JAR: We have 15 mins

19:16:01 [jar]

lm: I've been worried about the TAG pulling on a htread in this area… there's a huge body of work on this

19:16:13 [jar]

… don't know how to part without getting sucked into something much bigger

19:16:27 [Larry]

http://www.w3.org/2009/policy-ws/papers/Tschofenig.pdf

19:16:36 [jar]

rb: Agree. can't extract API minimisation from privacy context

19:17:13 [Larry]

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3693.txt

19:17:41 [jar]

noah: What I assumed scope was narrow, about granularity of requests -> might help privacy goals. People disagreed

19:18:26 [jar]

rb: How to present to users choices (in UI) about what info to give

19:18:36 [jar]

rb: Very similar to fingerprinting

19:18:44 [jar]

… user gets to pick which camera to expose

19:18:47 [Larry]

look at RFC 3693 section 1 for a broader set of requirements

19:19:10 [jar]

noah: Min. was cast as a JS API thing, fingerprinting was about what was on the wire?

19:19:36 [jar]

rb: You can do some MITM fingerprinting, but that doesn't go as far as JS-based fingerprinting

19:19:53 [jar]

rb: Don't want to discuss every possible kind of fingerprinting, only scope is JS APIs

19:20:11 [Larry]

q+

19:20:15 [jar]

rb: I forgot there were other kinds of APIs

19:20:33 [jar]

noah: I'm OK with doing something broader, but keep your eyes open, don't thrash

19:21:01 [Larry]

I think this touches on too much and that a TAG document in this area without addressing the broad scope is really unlikely to be constructive to the privacy community

19:21:08 [Larry]

-1

19:21:13 [darobin]

+1 :)

19:21:39 [jar]

lm: Field is large, complex , many people working on it, TAG contribution unlikely to be helpful to people working on the area

19:22:02 [jar]

rb: To be clear, the primary customer is not the privacy comnty, it's the API design comnty

19:22:39 [jar]

lm: Motivation for talking about APIs - there are lots of guidelines for API design, we don't want to get into that business either - too big similarly

19:22:54 [jar]

… another comnty to integrate with

19:23:08 [Larry]

API design guidelines for web APIs?

19:23:16 [noah]

I agree with Larry in the following sense: if we're going to say that minimization is related to fingerprinting...well...anything we do with API design is going to drag us into the many broader issues of good API design.

19:23:17 [jar]

rb: There are lots of guidelines, but very few for Web APIs, they are sorely missing, this is a real need

19:23:26 [timbl]

I think that Dan A may say that it would be worth just having the API minimization ndoe say just that before doing stg larger

19:23:34 [Larry]

so the client side storage finding might recommend API design?

19:23:37 [jar]

… very useful, a comnty we need to engage with. This is a good start, test the waters

19:24:16 [jar]

… I propose, let me start on broader scope, then retreat if necessary

19:24:17 [Larry]

i don't think it's foolish, it's more a matter of setting context

19:25:15 [jar]

noah: I hear some concern APIs get us in hot water

19:25:30 [Larry]

I think we need a framework for understanding how the work fits into webarch and other things

19:25:59 [jar]

timbl: If Dan were on the call, he'd advocate for API minimization *because* it's limited… that was the approach he favored for TAG publications, small

19:26:12 [jar]

… later aggregation works

19:26:33 [noah]

Would it make sense to do a product page which is, for a few weeks, not settled on scope, and sets April as a decision time on scope?

19:27:57 [jar]

rb: My problem - I don't think this is such a big broadening of scope. Let me clarify in followup. Dan & I have talked to other groups, and they don't really care, too fuzzy, whereas fingerprinting comes up all the time

19:28:16 [noah]

I'm personally not that enamored of minimization, but the question is only partly whether other people like it: the question is whether there's a sound architectural principle they should learn

19:28:45 [Larry]

i'm still not clear about whether this is 'good practices for API design' in general, or 'good practices for Privacy' or something else.

19:28:56 [darobin]

Larry, the former

19:28:57 [jar]

noah: (listing options)

19:29:07 [Larry]

design principles and recommendations need to be in the context of a problem they're solving

19:30:06 [jar]

adjourned.

19:30:14 [Zakim]

-noah

19:30:15 [Zakim]

-darobin

19:30:17 [Zakim]

-Yves

19:30:17 [Zakim]

-Masinter

19:30:23 [Zakim]

-jar

19:31:07 [Zakim]

-TimBL

19:31:08 [Zakim]

TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended

19:31:08 [Zakim]

Attendees were Masinter, JeniT, noah, jar, plinss, +33.1.43.14.aaaa, darobin, ht, Yves, TimBL

19:31:39 [jar]

rrsagent, make logs public

19:32:11 [jar]

rrsagent, pointer

19:32:11 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-tagmem-irc#T19-32-11

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