IRC log of tagmem on 2012-02-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:42:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
17:42:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-tagmem-irc
17:42:47 [Larry]
conference is restricted?
17:43:00 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tagmem
17:43:07 [jar]
zakim, this will be tag
17:43:07 [Zakim]
ok, jar; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
17:43:50 [jar]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/Overview.html was not on required reading list for today
17:44:12 [Larry]
i didn't think it should be
17:56:16 [JeniT]
JeniT has joined #tagmem
17:57:05 [JeniT]
trackbot, start telcon
17:57:08 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:57:10 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TAG
17:57:10 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
17:57:11 [trackbot]
Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
17:57:11 [trackbot]
Date: 02 February 2012
17:57:29 [JeniT]
Scribe: Jeni Tennison
17:57:34 [JeniT]
ScribeNick: JeniT
17:57:36 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
17:57:40 [noah]
noah has joined #tagmem
17:57:42 [Zakim]
+Masinter
17:58:04 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:58:59 [JeniT]
Regrets: Ashok Malhotra, Peter Linss, Dan Appelquist
17:59:18 [JeniT]
Chair: Noah Mendelsohn
17:59:26 [Zakim]
+Noah_Mendelsohn
17:59:43 [noah]
zakim, Noah_Mendelsohn is me
17:59:43 [Zakim]
+noah; got it
17:59:48 [noah]
zakim, who is talking?
17:59:59 [Zakim]
noah, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Masinter (39%)
18:00:04 [JeniT]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/02/02-agenda
18:00:13 [Zakim]
+jar
18:00:43 [JeniT]
Topic: Convene
18:00:58 [Zakim]
+plinss
18:01:11 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
18:01:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Masinter, JeniT, noah, jar, plinss
18:01:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see noah, JeniT, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar, Larry, darobin, timbl, plinss, trackbot, Yves
18:01:24 [Zakim]
+ +33.1.43.14.aaaa
18:01:38 [darobin]
Zakim, aaaa is me
18:01:38 [Zakim]
+darobin; got it
18:02:13 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
18:02:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Masinter, JeniT, noah, jar, plinss, darobin
18:02:15 [Zakim]
On IRC I see noah, JeniT, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar, Larry, darobin, timbl, plinss, trackbot, Yves
18:02:30 [ht]
ht has joined #tagmem
18:03:54 [JeniT]
Regrets: Ashok, Peter (partial), Jeni (partial)
18:04:12 [Zakim]
+??P26
18:04:15 [JeniT]
plinss: possible regrets next week
18:06:12 [JeniT]
noah: Storage discussion will be on agenda next week
18:06:30 [JeniT]
Larry: confirm scribe next week
18:06:39 [JeniT]
Topic: Approve minutes of prior meeting(s)
18:07:23 [JeniT]
RESOLUTION: Approve minutes of 26 January 2012 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/01/26-minutes
18:07:38 [JeniT]
noah: still missing minutes of 19 January 2012
18:07:41 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
18:07:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Masinter, JeniT, noah, jar, plinss, darobin, ht
18:07:42 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ht, noah, JeniT, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar, Larry, darobin, timbl, plinss, trackbot, Yves
18:07:52 [JeniT]
Topic: Administrative items
18:08:12 [JeniT]
noah: wanted to check on status of HTML/XML unification report, and on client-side state work, wait for Yves
18:08:43 [JeniT]
... also waiting on Dan to provide a section on web apps for report for Jeff
18:09:14 [jar]
I urge to expedite
18:09:15 [JeniT]
darobin: I can email Dan and see what he has, and try to finalise it
18:09:18 [Zakim]
+Yves
18:10:00 [JeniT]
noah: context is Jeff asked for warning about topics that are high-risk
18:10:13 [JeniT]
... we went through list at last F2F
18:10:24 [JeniT]
... Dan's was on native apps vs web apps on mobile devices
18:10:46 [JeniT]
noah: Yves, we have two notes pending, can you tell us status?
18:11:02 [JeniT]
Yves: I've done modifications and am waiting for final OK to request publication on Raman's note
18:11:19 [JeniT]
... The HTML/XML report has to get approval, hopefully published Tues
18:11:47 [JeniT]
noah: any objections to Yves' draft?
18:12:28 [Yves]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/01/note/hashinuri.html
18:12:38 [noah]
. RESOLUTION: TAG asks Yves to go ahead and publish note based on Raman's client-side FPWD, and we approve the latest frontmatter from Yves' email
18:12:55 [jar]
+1
18:12:59 [JeniT]
+1
18:13:03 [noah]
RESOLUTION: TAG asks Yves to go ahead and publish note based on Raman's client-side FPWD, and we approve the latest frontmatter from Yves' email
18:13:07 [Zakim]
+TimBL
18:13:51 [JeniT]
Topic: ISSUE-66 (mimeAndWeb-66-27): MIME and the Web
18:15:19 [JeniT]
Larry: I'm at the end of what I can do on these actions alone
18:15:30 [JeniT]
... they might not be done, but I need guidance from the rest of the TAG about how to take them forward
18:15:48 [JeniT]
noah: we have been doing work on mime on the web for quite some time
18:15:58 [JeniT]
... first round resulted in Larry publishing IETF draft
18:16:19 [JeniT]
... proposal was whether we should do more
18:16:19 [Larry]
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-masinter-mime-web-info-02
18:16:54 [jar]
q?
18:17:43 [Larry]
action-531?
18:17:43 [trackbot]
ACTION-531 -- Larry Masinter to draft document on architectural good practice relating to registries -- due 2011-12-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:17:43 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/531
18:17:57 [JeniT]
noah: I think Larry wants help here?
18:18:07 [timbl]
timbl has joined #tagmem
18:18:08 [JeniT]
Larry: the feedback I got was that maybe there was work on registeries we could do
18:18:22 [JeniT]
... from the evolution document
18:18:38 [Larry]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/Registries.html
18:18:55 [JeniT]
JeniT: I thought it was interesting and good work, that I thought we should move forward
18:19:02 [jar]
jeni is saying what I was going to say: It's good work, ought to be continued
18:19:16 [JeniT]
Larry: this tries to separate out issues about evolution, references and persistence
18:19:33 [JeniT]
... we have work on persistence, establishing meaning of URIs, and identifiers that are URIs or identifiers in a registry
18:19:49 [JeniT]
... we have some practices around registries that, in the IETF, the registries are managed by IANA
18:19:56 [JeniT]
... so there are some documents about IANA registries
18:20:09 [JeniT]
... but W3C could sponsor other registries that weren't IANA registries
18:20:10 [jar]
managed by IANA *under IETF direction*, right?...
18:20:16 [JeniT]
... and maybe there's more to say about that
18:20:35 [JeniT]
... I felt like maybe it's a paper for 'Philosophy and the Web' rather than a TAG topic
18:20:45 [JeniT]
... I'd like to collaborate with someone else on it
18:21:04 [JeniT]
noah: so, there's whether the work shows up as a TAG finding or in a workshop
18:21:13 [JeniT]
... and there's whether you do it alone or who's with you
18:21:22 [JeniT]
... and any set of combinations makes sense
18:21:26 [JeniT]
... so what's your preference?
18:21:33 [JeniT]
Larry: I'd like someone else to lead and let me follow
18:21:36 [Larry]
i'd like someone else to lead and i'll follow
18:22:47 [JeniT]
noah: is there anyone on the call who would like to do it?
18:23:10 [JeniT]
ht: "this" is the general status of registries, the goal of registries in web architecture?
18:23:14 [Larry]
in particular start with http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/Registries.html
18:23:20 [JeniT]
timbl: is it with the same scope as that draft?
18:23:33 [noah]
I heard him say "yes, that scope"
18:23:51 [JeniT]
Larry: yes, as in that document
18:24:20 [noah]
JT: Pick me, but only after the publishing and linking is done
18:24:44 [JeniT]
noah: Publishing & Linking is the one that worries me about winding up needing multiple tries
18:25:04 [JeniT]
... I'm worried that if you can't overlap them then this will really put off work on registries
18:25:57 [JeniT]
JT: I'm interested, but can't take on more work right now
18:26:02 [jar]
ditto
18:26:03 [Larry]
mainly i want to close this action item
18:26:12 [timbl]
I am happy to review it, but can't lead
18:26:30 [JeniT]
Larry: let's close the action item, and if someone else takes it on, open another action item
18:27:01 [JeniT]
noah: we'll close this action, and I'll take a long-term action that when the copyrighting/linking stuff wraps, we can talk about Jeni taking this on
18:27:03 [JeniT]
+1
18:27:10 [noah]
close ACTION-531
18:27:10 [trackbot]
ACTION-531 Draft document on architectural good practice relating to registries closed
18:27:40 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to check, when publishing and linking wraps, whether it's time to reinvest in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/Registries.html
18:27:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-667 - Check, when publishing and linking wraps, whether it's time to reinvest in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/Registries.html [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2012-02-09].
18:28:00 [noah]
ACTION-667 Due 2012-04-01
18:28:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-667 Check, when publishing and linking wraps, whether it's time to reinvest in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/Registries.html due date now 2012-04-01
18:28:13 [noah]
ACTION-595?
18:28:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-595 -- Larry Masinter to draft a report on Mime and the Web -- due 2012-01-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:28:13 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/595
18:28:36 [noah]
NM: Your thoughts, Larry?
18:29:20 [JeniT]
Larry: mime provides a way of giving a persistent name for a language, which is different from a persistent name for a specification
18:29:35 [JeniT]
... it's another issue where I think I understand it, but I don't know what we as a group want to say about it
18:29:45 [JeniT]
... I get the impression that other TAG members aren't really into this
18:29:59 [JeniT]
... that it's on the periphery
18:30:14 [JeniT]
timbl: I don't think it's on the periphery, I think that these are important
18:30:16 [noah]
q+ to talk about worries about versioning
18:30:36 [noah]
ack next
18:30:37 [JeniT]
... other issues such as Javascript modules interact, and RDFa and HTML, which are more salient (?)
18:30:37 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to talk about worries about versioning
18:30:38 [Larry]
should we wait until we're done with registries to tackle mime?
18:31:02 [JeniT]
noah: I'm interested, but I'm worried that it leads into territory that the TAG has shown itself to not be good at closing on
18:31:21 [JeniT]
... I thought the specific thing about the registration of media types where the specifications evolve
18:31:36 [JeniT]
... lots of people think they know how it works, but we all think about it differently
18:31:49 [jar]
jenit, timbl said: rdfa and html are more topical (current), compared to mime, which is a keystone
18:31:55 [JeniT]
... it's not lack of interest, just a sense that I'm not confident that we could get there
18:32:19 [Larry]
maybe 'versioning' has become a bogeyman for the TAG? aversion to versioning
18:32:28 [jar]
q?
18:32:30 [JeniT]
... if we could do something in 2-4 pages that was a how-to, then that would be great work
18:32:36 [JeniT]
... but I think we'd thrash on it
18:32:59 [JeniT]
jar: I'd like the more scientific approach rather than the prescriptive approach
18:33:07 [JeniT]
... I think someone should write it down
18:33:19 [JeniT]
noah: that's why I thought a wiki would be a good space to start
18:33:28 [JeniT]
... but we didn't get to an agreement on how to do that
18:33:43 [JeniT]
... the default is to close it and walk away
18:34:00 [JeniT]
Larry: one thing to do, once we've done registries, we could take another task on the mime registry in particular
18:34:08 [JeniT]
... it's the media type registry that's of interest here
18:34:23 [Larry]
well, and the charset registry
18:34:36 [Larry]
and the 'willful violation' issues around registries whose values are ignored for some purposes
18:34:58 [JeniT]
noah: minute that we might want to revisit the issues of mime and mime registration after the registries work is done
18:35:12 [JeniT]
Larry: yes, add media type and charset registries to the reminder
18:35:37 [Larry]
there's http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/MIME.html
18:35:44 [JeniT]
noah: why don't you take responsibility to make sure that's included in scope when we look at registries
18:36:03 [JeniT]
Larry: there is a document on MIME in particular (linked here)
18:36:24 [JeniT]
... which points to the registry document, and raises specific issues around what MIME tries to name, and polyglot/multi-views etc
18:36:36 [JeniT]
... some of the issues that would have to be done in a full exposition of MIME and the web
18:36:53 [JeniT]
... so this document is a draft of what such a report might look like
18:37:35 [JeniT]
noah: I thought the point was to not do the MIME-specific stuff, except in so far as it informs the general story
18:37:37 [noah]
ACTION-595?
18:37:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-595 -- Larry Masinter to draft a report on Mime and the Web -- due 2012-01-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:37:37 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/595
18:37:59 [noah]
NM: Right, and we're proposing to put that off until at least after the general registries work is done, right?
18:38:21 [JeniT]
Larry: I've added a link in that action item to the report
18:38:28 [JeniT]
... so the action item is done
18:39:15 [JeniT]
noah: usually a draft means that we're going to carry it forward, but I think you're saying put that draft down for now
18:39:30 [JeniT]
Larry: yes, until someone else wants to do the work on turning that into a TAG document
18:39:38 [JeniT]
noah: is there anyone else who wants to pick this up?
18:39:52 [Larry]
and perhaps this is to just serialize this work so that the tag can take up things one at a time
18:40:19 [JeniT]
Larry: basically there's a big raft of work and we need to focus on one thing at a time
18:40:34 [JeniT]
... taking it up after doing registries is fine
18:41:01 [JeniT]
noah: how should we track this?
18:41:30 [noah]
close ACTION-595
18:41:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-595 Draft a report on Mime and the Web closed
18:42:10 [JeniT]
JT: suggest long-term action
18:42:13 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to eventually, probably after registries work is done, ask whether TAG wants to reinvest in MIME/Web Due 2013-01-31
18:42:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-668 - Eventually, probably after registries work is done, ask whether TAG wants to reinvest in MIME/Web Due 2013-01-31 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2012-02-09].
18:42:26 [Larry]
might put http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/MIME.html in -668 as a starting point
18:42:31 [noah]
ACTION-668 Due 2013-01-31
18:42:31 [trackbot]
ACTION-668 Eventually, probably after registries work is done, ask whether TAG wants to reinvest in MIME/Web Due 2013-01-31 due date now 2013-01-31
18:42:41 [noah]
ACTION-636?
18:42:41 [trackbot]
ACTION-636 -- Larry Masinter to update product page for Mime and the Web -- due 2012-01-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:42:41 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/636
18:43:07 [JeniT]
noah: purpose of project pages is to set down goals/dates/success criteria on big work
18:43:12 [JeniT]
... we have draft pages on mime work
18:43:29 [JeniT]
... my impression is that it doesn't tell the story of the first round of work, about the IETF draft
18:43:46 [JeniT]
... I think it would be good to include that, and talk about what future work we might do
18:43:55 [JeniT]
... such as registries
18:44:09 [JeniT]
+1
18:44:18 [JeniT]
ScribeNick: jar
18:44:25 [Zakim]
-JeniT
18:44:28 [Larry]
the product page depends on waht others are willing to do, which i didn' thave a good view
18:45:14 [jar]
lm: the product page is a commitment, so since there is no commitment - well, let's turn it into a wrapup page.
18:45:35 [jar]
noah: Briefly tell the story of the successful work that happened
18:45:54 [jar]
noah: Say we considered another round, and this is just on hold
18:46:03 [Larry]
action-636
18:46:10 [Larry]
action-636?
18:46:10 [trackbot]
ACTION-636 -- Larry Masinter to update product page for Mime and the Web -- due 2012-01-17 -- OPEN
18:46:10 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/636
18:46:28 [noah]
ACTION-636 Due 2012-02-03
18:46:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-636 Update product page for Mime and the Web due date now 2012-02-03
18:46:45 [jar]
noah: thank you
18:46:55 [Larry]
ok
18:47:18 [jar]
topic: References to specifications that may update
18:47:20 [Larry]
action-350?
18:47:20 [trackbot]
ACTION-350 -- Larry Masinter to revise http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Oct/0075.html based on feedback on www-tag and the feedback from TAG f2f 2009-12-09 discussion -- due 2011-11-29 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:47:20 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/350
18:47:24 [noah]
ACTION-350?
18:47:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-350 -- Larry Masinter to revise http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Oct/0075.html based on feedback on www-tag and the feedback from TAG f2f 2009-12-09 discussion -- due 2011-11-29 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:47:24 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/350
18:47:42 [noah]
"Best practice for referring to specifications which may update" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Oct/0075.html
18:47:42 [jar]
noah: Henry had written ...
18:48:19 [jar]
noah: Larry took action 350, where he came up with a different approach
18:48:49 [jar]
lm: I can't say it's an alternate proposal - I just didn't like where it was going
18:49:16 [Larry]
i didn't really think i had something 'better' except a direction
18:49:19 [noah]
I put Larry's proposed test in an e-mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2012Jan/0043.html
18:50:01 [jar]
noah: some people liked Larry's writeup more than others. left off with discussion of QA group's rec
18:51:11 [jar]
lm: action started in 2009. we talked, investigated. I suggested closing.
18:51:25 [Larry]
http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#ref-define-practice
18:51:37 [noah]
Thanks Larry
18:51:38 [jar]
ht: I need to review in more detail
18:52:03 [jar]
ht: what I wrote was what I understood to be practice that several WGs have been following
18:52:38 [jar]
… so those wgs were not following the QA advice -or maybe I did a poor job of reconstructing their practices?
18:53:01 [jar]
… I can't contribute to a decision since I haven't formed an opinion
18:53:19 [jar]
lm: ht to take an action?
18:53:34 [noah]
HT: I'd only get to it this summer, but will do it if you like. Else you can close it.
18:53:41 [noah]
NM: Preferences? Worth waiting that long?
18:53:42 [jar]
ht: sure, but understand that there's no rush, sodue maybe this summer.
18:54:57 [noah]
. ACTION: Henry to review http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#ref-define-practice and see whether TAG needs to do more on references to evolving specs
18:55:22 [noah]
ACTION: Henry to review http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#ref-define-practice and see whether TAG needs to do more on references to evolving specs Due: 2012-08-01
18:55:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-669 - Review http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#ref-define-practice and see whether TAG needs to do more on references to evolving specs Due: 2012-08-01 [on Henry Thompson - due 2012-02-09].
18:56:25 [noah]
close ACTION-530
18:56:25 [trackbot]
ACTION-530 Draft slides for IETF meeting, with help from Larry Due 2011-02-22 closed
18:56:52 [jar]
topic: HTML5 Last Call
18:56:57 [noah]
ACTION-644?
18:56:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-644 -- Larry Masinter to draft proposed alternative text to e-mail announcing end of "product" work on HTML 5 last call ( https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011Dec/0041.html ) Due 2012-01-10 -- due 2012-01-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:56:57 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/644
18:57:55 [jar]
noah: I wrote draft email announcement, LM revised it
18:58:11 [jar]
noah: I'm fine with LM's
18:58:43 [jar]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/html5review.html ?
18:59:07 [noah]
Draft page from Larry: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/html5review
18:59:57 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/html5review-2011-12-21.html
19:00:17 [Larry]
you already did that, Noah
19:00:59 [noah]
close ACTION-644
19:00:59 [trackbot]
ACTION-644 Draft proposed alternative text to e-mail announcing end of "product" work on HTML 5 last call ( https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011Dec/0041.html ) Due 2012-01-10 closed
19:01:00 [jar]
noah: all done here.
19:01:12 [Larry]
this was done a long time ago, we just overlooked closing the action
19:01:24 [Zakim]
-plinss
19:01:27 [noah]
topic: Mime/Web
19:01:32 [noah]
Please look at: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/index-2012-01-12.html
19:01:40 [jar]
topic: MIME and the Web product
19:02:17 [jar]
noah: No longer a priority product, OK?
19:02:55 [noah]
. RESOLUTION: The TAG is closing its work on MIME/Web, noting successful completion of 1st round of work
19:02:56 [Larry]
we'll do that after TAG reviews the final product page
19:02:58 [jar]
lm: Let me finish product page and get review before dropping priority?
19:03:34 [noah]
. RESOLUTION: The TAG is closing its work on MIME/Web, noting successful completion of 1st round of work. Product priority list to be updated after closing product page approved.
19:03:50 [noah]
RESOLUTION: The TAG is closing its work on MIME/Web, noting successful completion of 1st round of work. Product priority list to be updated after closing product page approved.
19:04:18 [noah]
. ACTION: Noah to update product priority list to mark MIMEWeb completed after final product page available Due 2012-03-01
19:04:24 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to update product priority list to mark MIMEWeb completed after final product page available Due 2012-03-01
19:04:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-670 - Update product priority list to mark MIMEWeb completed after final product page available Due 2012-03-01 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2012-02-09].
19:05:17 [jar]
topic: Pending review items
19:05:32 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview?sort=owner
19:06:42 [Yves]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2012Feb/0021.html
19:06:45 [darobin]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/apiminimization-2012-02-02.html
19:06:46 [noah]
HT: Maybe discuss e-mail from robin http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2012Feb/0021.html
19:07:33 [noah]
Product page draft is at: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/apiminimization-2012-02-02.html
19:08:23 [noah]
q+ to make a chair's comment on scope\
19:09:11 [noah]
ack next
19:09:12 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to make a chair's comment on scope\
19:09:22 [jar]
oops forgot to scribe, listening too hard.
19:09:41 [jar]
rb: Broadened scope [see cover email linked from minutes]
19:09:46 [darobin]
just a little bit of background on fingerprinting if it helps: http://panopticlick.eff.org/
19:09:57 [jar]
rb: … that would make the finding more coherent.
19:10:11 [jar]
q+ jar to push back a tiny bit
19:11:01 [jar]
noah: I'd prefer to get this little piece out sooner, then broader thing as followon
19:12:00 [jar]
rb: I understand, but I''m fairly confident that (a) can draft before next f2f, (b) problem with only minimization is that it is not timely - not relevant to APIs currently be designed - fingerprinting is a priority
19:12:28 [jar]
… designs of APIs have changed since we started looking at this
19:12:49 [jar]
… not a huge difference in workload to tackle entire thing instead of just part of it
19:13:13 [jar]
noah: There's a bad history behind this general approach.
19:13:16 [noah]
ack next
19:13:18 [Zakim]
jar, you wanted to push back a tiny bit
19:13:29 [Zakim]
-ht
19:13:44 [Larry]
there's more to API minimization tahn what we're talking about
19:14:08 [noah]
JAR: I don't disagree with any of that, but... it seems to me fingerprinting is different from minimization. Not convinced it has to do with privacy. Not sure others agree. I tend to feel things that are mainly technical in practice feel more like security than privacy.
19:14:21 [jar]
rb: minimization is on the fence between security and privacy
19:14:23 [noah]
RB: I somewhat agree. It's a bit on the fence between the two.
19:14:38 [Larry]
for example, geopriv in IETF took a policy approach that all locale information should be accompanied by an minimal expiration policy and a distribution policy . API minimization is only one part
19:15:07 [Larry]
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-geopriv-policy-25
19:15:31 [noah]
NM: Continue or take it to e-mail...this was an unplanned discussion
19:15:44 [noah]
JAR: We have 15 mins
19:16:01 [jar]
lm: I've been worried about the TAG pulling on a htread in this area… there's a huge body of work on this
19:16:13 [jar]
… don't know how to part without getting sucked into something much bigger
19:16:27 [Larry]
http://www.w3.org/2009/policy-ws/papers/Tschofenig.pdf
19:16:36 [jar]
rb: Agree. can't extract API minimisation from privacy context
19:17:13 [Larry]
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3693.txt
19:17:41 [jar]
noah: What I assumed scope was narrow, about granularity of requests -> might help privacy goals. People disagreed
19:18:26 [jar]
rb: How to present to users choices (in UI) about what info to give
19:18:36 [jar]
rb: Very similar to fingerprinting
19:18:44 [jar]
… user gets to pick which camera to expose
19:18:47 [Larry]
look at RFC 3693 section 1 for a broader set of requirements
19:19:10 [jar]
noah: Min. was cast as a JS API thing, fingerprinting was about what was on the wire?
19:19:36 [jar]
rb: You can do some MITM fingerprinting, but that doesn't go as far as JS-based fingerprinting
19:19:53 [jar]
rb: Don't want to discuss every possible kind of fingerprinting, only scope is JS APIs
19:20:11 [Larry]
q+
19:20:15 [jar]
rb: I forgot there were other kinds of APIs
19:20:33 [jar]
noah: I'm OK with doing something broader, but keep your eyes open, don't thrash
19:21:01 [Larry]
I think this touches on too much and that a TAG document in this area without addressing the broad scope is really unlikely to be constructive to the privacy community
19:21:08 [Larry]
-1
19:21:13 [darobin]
+1 :)
19:21:39 [jar]
lm: Field is large, complex , many people working on it, TAG contribution unlikely to be helpful to people working on the area
19:22:02 [jar]
rb: To be clear, the primary customer is not the privacy comnty, it's the API design comnty
19:22:39 [jar]
lm: Motivation for talking about APIs - there are lots of guidelines for API design, we don't want to get into that business either - too big similarly
19:22:54 [jar]
… another comnty to integrate with
19:23:08 [Larry]
API design guidelines for web APIs?
19:23:16 [noah]
I agree with Larry in the following sense: if we're going to say that minimization is related to fingerprinting...well...anything we do with API design is going to drag us into the many broader issues of good API design.
19:23:17 [jar]
rb: There are lots of guidelines, but very few for Web APIs, they are sorely missing, this is a real need
19:23:26 [timbl]
I think that Dan A may say that it would be worth just having the API minimization ndoe say just that before doing stg larger
19:23:34 [Larry]
so the client side storage finding might recommend API design?
19:23:37 [jar]
… very useful, a comnty we need to engage with. This is a good start, test the waters
19:24:16 [jar]
… I propose, let me start on broader scope, then retreat if necessary
19:24:17 [Larry]
i don't think it's foolish, it's more a matter of setting context
19:25:15 [jar]
noah: I hear some concern APIs get us in hot water
19:25:30 [Larry]
I think we need a framework for understanding how the work fits into webarch and other things
19:25:59 [jar]
timbl: If Dan were on the call, he'd advocate for API minimization *because* it's limited… that was the approach he favored for TAG publications, small
19:26:12 [jar]
… later aggregation works
19:26:33 [noah]
Would it make sense to do a product page which is, for a few weeks, not settled on scope, and sets April as a decision time on scope?
19:27:57 [jar]
rb: My problem - I don't think this is such a big broadening of scope. Let me clarify in followup. Dan & I have talked to other groups, and they don't really care, too fuzzy, whereas fingerprinting comes up all the time
19:28:16 [noah]
I'm personally not that enamored of minimization, but the question is only partly whether other people like it: the question is whether there's a sound architectural principle they should learn
19:28:45 [Larry]
i'm still not clear about whether this is 'good practices for API design' in general, or 'good practices for Privacy' or something else.
19:28:56 [darobin]
Larry, the former
19:28:57 [jar]
noah: (listing options)
19:29:07 [Larry]
design principles and recommendations need to be in the context of a problem they're solving
19:30:06 [jar]
adjourned.
19:30:14 [Zakim]
-noah
19:30:15 [Zakim]
-darobin
19:30:17 [Zakim]
-Yves
19:30:17 [Zakim]
-Masinter
19:30:23 [Zakim]
-jar
19:31:07 [Zakim]
-TimBL
19:31:08 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
19:31:08 [Zakim]
Attendees were Masinter, JeniT, noah, jar, plinss, +33.1.43.14.aaaa, darobin, ht, Yves, TimBL
19:31:39 [jar]
rrsagent, make logs public
19:32:11 [jar]
rrsagent, pointer
19:32:11 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-tagmem-irc#T19-32-11
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