15:58:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:58:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-html-a11y-irc
15:59:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:59:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:59:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
15:59:04 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:59:04 <trackbot> Date: 02 February 2012
15:59:06 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
15:59:31 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Feb/0020.html
15:59:35 <MichaelC> regrets: Laura_Carlson
16:00:45 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
16:00:47 <Zakim> +Cooper
16:00:53 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
16:00:56 <janina> janina has joined #html-a11y
16:01:18 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
16:01:18 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
16:01:18 <janina> agenda+ Issue-164 Group http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/164
16:01:18 <janina> agenda+ Issue-193 Bad CSS Example http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/193
16:01:18 <janina> agenda+ Issue-194 Media Full Transcript http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
16:01:18 <janina> agenda+ Issue-199 ARIA Attributes Processing http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
16:01:20 <janina> agenda+ Issue-201 Canvas Fallback http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201
16:01:22 <janina> agenda+ Issue-202 Fig-Caption Word Count http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/202
16:01:25 <janina> agenda+ Issue-203 Media Element Text Description http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203
16:01:26 <janina> agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mapping; Text
16:01:28 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
16:01:30 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
16:01:32 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe for 9 February http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
16:01:34 <janina> agenda+ be done
16:01:36 <janina>  
16:02:35 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
16:02:56 <MikeSmith> zakim, call Mike
16:04:03 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:04:06 <Zakim> +Mike
16:04:09 <Zakim> + +44.117.929.aaaa
16:04:30 <Zakim> +??P0
16:04:53 <Zakim> +Rich
16:05:13 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Léonie_Watson
16:05:35 <Zakim> +??P7
16:06:02 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P0 is Janina_Sajka
16:06:08 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P7 is Steve_Faulkner
16:06:37 <Zakim> +Léonie_Watson; got it
16:07:24 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
16:07:28 <Zakim> +Steve_Faulkner; got it
16:07:54 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
16:07:59 <LeonieW> LeonieW has joined #html-a11y
16:08:04 <Zakim> +Judy
16:08:10 <LeonieW> scribenick: LeonieW
16:08:15 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
16:08:33 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
16:08:33 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-a11y
16:09:10 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Issue-164 Group http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/164" taken up [from janina]
16:10:55 <LeonieW> SF: When you have multiple h1 in an hgroup, only the first goes into the document outline.
16:11:06 <LeonieW> zakim, mute me
16:11:06 <Zakim> sorry, LeonieW, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:11:53 <LeonieW> SF: Within the ARIA spec it says that what hgroup does is to take the headings, and the hgroup itself becomes the level of the highest heading contained within it.
16:12:29 <LeonieW> SF: In the document outline it's removed, it remains in the document itself though.
16:12:58 <LeonieW> SF: You end up with a heading and a sub heading visually, but semantically you lose that information about the sub heading.
16:14:17 <LeonieW> JS: Steve, you raised a change proposal, and since then other proposals have been submitted.
16:14:25 <LeonieW> SF: Yes, several change proposals out there.
16:16:17 <LeonieW> SF: When reviewing the real world examples I noticed that quite often hgroup wasn't used properly.
16:17:16 <LeonieW> SF: My change proposal proposes the idea of a sub line. 
16:17:57 <janina> q?
16:18:00 <LeonieW> SF: I have another proposal out there that recommends an attribute for removing the sub heading from the document outline.
16:18:16 <LeonieW> JS: You have two proposals?
16:18:54 <Zakim> + +1.206.619.aabb
16:19:33 <MichaelC> zakim, aabb is Frank_Olivier
16:19:33 <Zakim> +Frank_Olivier; got it
16:20:44 <Zakim> -Léonie_Watson
16:21:41 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
16:21:48 <MichaelC> jf: more important to pick up relationship
16:22:07 <MichaelC> don't care about element
16:22:49 <MichaelC> js: to recap, care about semantic value, not about the mechanism to provide
16:23:19 <MichaelC> cs: info still in the spec, right?
16:23:21 <MichaelC> sf: yes
16:23:30 <MichaelC> cs: so address in API mapping?
16:23:46 <MichaelC> sf: semantics of hgroup defined in HTML 5, including appropriate role
16:24:03 <MichaelC> it removes the "headingness" of the two headings and makes them one
16:24:14 <MichaelC> if the mapping document contradicts, need to update HTML
16:24:20 <janina> q?
16:25:05 <MichaelC> but prefer to take advantage of the new element
16:25:14 <MichaelC> in a semantically useful manner
16:25:18 <MichaelC> rather than hack around it
16:25:27 <MichaelC> js: one CP could be to remove element
16:25:39 <MichaelC> sf: it is already present
16:26:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:26:35 <MichaelC> js: seems sense of TF is we want to preserve semantics; hgroup is problematic in that regard; don't care about mechanism
16:26:59 <MichaelC> cs: while we want to preserve semantics, I don't want to die on sword for this one
16:27:13 <MichaelC> jf: +1
16:27:28 <LeonieW> scribenick: LeonieW
16:27:28 <MichaelC> scribe: LeonieW
16:27:47 <MichaelC> zakim, IPcaller is Léonie_Watson
16:27:47 <Zakim> +Léonie_Watson; got it
16:27:50 <Judy> q+
16:28:00 <LeonieW> SF: We'll find there is momentum there, and if there's going to be change, we should have a position on that.
16:28:34 <LeonieW> JB: If we could agree whether we think this change is relevant, that would be good.
16:28:42 <LeonieW> CS@ Not going to fight over it, but think we need to look at our priorities.
16:28:47 <LeonieW> JS: Hearing no objections.
16:28:52 <LeonieW> zakim, next item
16:28:52 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LeonieW
16:29:17 <Judy> s/that would be good/that would seem straightforward and sufficient/
16:29:28 <Judy> q-
16:29:32 <janina> q?
16:29:37 <LeonieW> zakim, nex item
16:29:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'nex item', LeonieW
16:29:45 <LeonieW> zakim, next item
16:29:45 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Issue-193 Bad CSS Example http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/193" taken up [from janina]
16:30:14 <LeonieW> CS: Suggest a reorg of the agenda to get to canvas?
16:30:25 <Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/outlinenone
16:30:51 <LeonieW> SF: Change proposal is out there. Has plenty of evidence.
16:31:11 <LeonieW> JS: Would be good if everyone could look at this CP over the next week so we can move to a resolution on it next week.
16:31:23 <LeonieW> JS: Issue 193, worth noting it contradicts WCAG.
16:31:30 <LeonieW> SF: Thanks. That's already in there.
16:31:34 <LeonieW> zakim, next item
16:31:34 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Issue-194 Media Full Transcript http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194" taken up [from janina]
16:31:42 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieW
16:31:48 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:31:49 <Zakim> -Frank_Olivier
16:32:15 <LeonieW> MC: Think it's fairly straight forward. The section on ARIA needs expanding.
16:32:31 <LeonieW> MC: Planning on doing the substantial part of this tomorrow.
16:32:44 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:32:45 <LeonieW> RS: Did you put in my info about role?
16:32:50 <LeonieW> SF: Not yet.
16:32:57 <LeonieW> RS: Did you see the post Michael?
16:32:58 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:33:02 <LeonieW> MC: Yes.
16:33:25 <LeonieW> SF: Talking about bringing info from V1 and V2 together.
16:34:12 <LeonieW> MC: Believe this will address 11893. 11892 seems to be a duplicate though.
16:34:35 <LeonieW> MC: 11891 will be caught.
16:34:50 <LeonieW> MC: Think one CP will do here.
16:35:26 <LeonieW> JS: Questions?
16:35:59 <LeonieW> SF: What we don't want to  have is a situation where HTML5 is locked into not allowing new roles as ARIA evolves.
16:36:26 <LeonieW> MC: Yes. That's something I hope defining the role attribute within the HTML5 spec will help with.
16:37:04 <LeonieW> RS: We need to be able to update ARIA without changing the HTML5 spec.
16:37:34 <LeonieW> MC: The issue with saying that roles are recognised from the ARIA spec, it's dependent on user agents processing them.
16:38:33 <LeonieW> RS: Could we talk about patterns?
16:39:24 <LeonieW> MC: Trying to follow the ARIA spec. If you don't recognise the token, you go on until you find one you do. The API mapping doc will then be the source for the tokens you recognise.
16:39:36 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:39:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieW
16:39:57 <LeonieW> JS: Sounds like we're on track. Please look out for the CP to review when it's ready.
16:40:00 <LeonieW> zakim, next item
16:40:00 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Issue-199 ARIA Attributes Processing http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199" taken up [from janina]
16:40:23 <LeonieW> zakim, agenda?
16:40:23 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
16:40:24 <Zakim> 4. Issue-199 ARIA Attributes Processing http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199 [from janina]
16:40:24 <Zakim> 5. Issue-201 Canvas Fallback http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201 [from janina]
16:40:24 <Zakim> 6. Issue-202 Fig-Caption Word Count http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/202 [from janina]
16:40:24 <Zakim> 7. Issue-203 Media Element Text Description http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203 [from janina]
16:40:24 <Zakim> 8. Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mapping; Text [from janina]
16:40:27 <Zakim> 9. Other Business [from janina]
16:40:28 <Zakim> 10. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina]
16:40:30 <Zakim> 11. Identify Scribe for 9 February http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List [from janina]
16:40:33 <Zakim> 12. be done [from janina]
16:40:39 <LeonieW> zakim, close item 4
16:40:39 <Zakim> agendum 4, Issue-199 ARIA Attributes Processing http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199, closed
16:40:41 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:40:41 <Zakim> 5. Issue-201 Canvas Fallback http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201 [from janina]
16:40:46 <LeonieW> zakim, next item
16:40:46 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Issue-201 Canvas Fallback http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201" taken up [from janina]
16:41:21 <janina> q?
16:41:22 <LeonieW> FO: If you could send comments or proposed edits on the CP it would be useful
16:41:31 <LeonieW> JB: Any issues to discuss on the call?
16:41:39 <LeonieW> FO: No, just to make everyone aware of it.
16:41:52 <Judy> q+
16:42:12 <LeonieW> JF: Could we get an executive summary of the proposal?
16:42:35 <LeonieW> FO: Proposal is to complete the sub dom idea.
16:43:46 <richardschwerdtfe> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Canvas_hit_testing
16:43:47 <LeonieW> FO: The change defines regions on the canvas that relate to the shadow dom. If you interact with the bitmap it should fire the event through. So the bitmap is a proxy for the element underneath it.
16:44:10 <LeonieW> JF: This sounds functionally similar to a client side image map?
16:44:21 <LeonieW> FO: Somewhat in concept. Imagemaps have other issues.
16:44:37 <LeonieW> JF: Right. In the sense I'm clicking on a picture but activating something underneath it?
16:44:40 <LeonieW> FO: Yes.
16:45:48 <janina> q?
16:45:57 <LeonieW> FO: There isn't a mechanism in canvas at the moment to deal with multiple controls. Anything more involved than a single interaction isn't catered for.
16:46:35 <Judy> q-
16:46:37 <janina> ack j
16:46:59 <LeonieW> RS: It allows you to do hit testing on canvas, and also to provide a magnifier.
16:47:10 <LeonieW> JF: What happens when your hit region is animated?
16:47:34 <LeonieW> FO: This would solve that problem too. The hot spot and the animation can be dealt with separately, but brought together.
16:47:49 <LeonieW> RS: The last thing drawn is the one that gets the hit.
16:48:46 <LeonieW> JS: Sounds like there's general agreement here.
16:48:52 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:48:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieW
16:49:09 <LeonieW> RS: Believe this has to be submitted by the 11th?
16:49:20 <LeonieW> RS: Need to get a resolution on this next Thursday.
16:50:05 <LeonieW> zakim, next item
16:50:05 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Issue-202 Fig-Caption Word Count http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/202" taken up [from janina]
16:50:23 <LeonieW> JS: Will we end up with a proposal?
16:50:32 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:50:44 <LeonieW> JB: My aim is to have a proposal before the sub team meeting on Tuesday and review it then, before forwarding to the TF next Thursday.
16:50:46 <LeonieW> zakim, next item
16:50:47 <Zakim> agendum 6 was just opened, LeonieW
16:50:56 <LeonieW> zakim, close item 6
16:50:56 <Zakim> agendum 6, Issue-202 Fig-Caption Word Count http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/202, closed
16:50:59 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:50:59 <Zakim> 7. Issue-203 Media Element Text Description http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203 [from janina]
16:51:00 <LeonieW> zakim, next item
16:51:01 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Issue-203 Media Element Text Description http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203" taken up [from janina]
16:51:12 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:51:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieW
16:51:32 <LeonieW> JS: We need to keep this alive, but we need issue 130 to be dealth with first?
16:52:16 <LeonieW> JF: In issue 203, you're right. It's related to longdesc in some ways. If we could use longdesc on media elements it would be one solution. It's also related to issue 142 (poster alt).
16:52:45 <LeonieW> JF: As we discussed at TPAC, the solution may lie outside of HTML in ARIA 1.1.
16:53:19 <LeonieW> RS: It's in for ARIA 1.1.
16:53:50 <LeonieW> JF: There was positive feedback from Frank at MS and Jonas from Mozilla.
16:54:10 <LeonieW> zakim, open item 4
16:54:10 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Issue-199 ARIA Attributes Processing http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199" taken up [from janina]
16:54:25 <LeonieW> zakim, close item
16:54:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', LeonieW
16:54:32 <LeonieW> zakim, close item 4
16:54:32 <Zakim> agendum 4, Issue-199 ARIA Attributes Processing http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199, closed
16:54:34 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:54:34 <Zakim> 7. Issue-203 Media Element Text Description http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203 [from janina]
16:54:39 <LeonieW> zakim, open item 5
16:54:39 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Issue-201 Canvas Fallback http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201" taken up [from janina]
16:54:49 <LeonieW> zakim, close item 5
16:54:49 <Zakim> agendum 5, Issue-201 Canvas Fallback http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201, closed
16:54:51 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:54:51 <Zakim> 7. Issue-203 Media Element Text Description http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203 [from janina]
16:55:27 <LeonieW> topic: Issue 193.
16:55:46 <LeonieW> JF: The proposal is to introduce an attribute.
16:56:00 <LeonieW> CS: Why is an attribute needed? Wouldn't a link by the media element work?
16:56:49 <LeonieW> JF: It isn't as clean if a link is used.
16:57:00 <LeonieW> CS: There are pages with media and plenty of other links.
16:57:10 <LeonieW> JF: What about if the video is viewed full screen?
16:57:25 <LeonieW> CS: They close the window and follow the link.
16:57:37 <Judy> agenda?
16:58:08 <LeonieW> JF: It isn't a hill to die for, but adding an attribute like this seems fairly innocuous.
16:59:18 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieW
17:00:10 <Judy> Text sub-team met Tuesday 20120131; minutes posted http://www.w3.org/2012/01/31-text-minutes
17:00:10 <Judy> - Meta name generator: confirmed edits to CP requested during the TF review last week. Poll to list is pending from Janina.
17:00:10 <Judy> - Title: discussed multiple edits to CP to clarify presentation of rationale and supporting evidence. Those edits pending from Steve. TF subteam will review them next Tuesday then bring to TF.
17:00:10 <Judy> - WG location of alt guidance: discussed several questions regarding primary focus of CP in progress by Michael, and main points for rationale. Updated version of that is pending from Michael.
17:00:10 <LeonieW> s/Topic: Issue 193/Topic: Issue 194/
17:00:11 <Judy> - Timing is tight on some of these that need to go from Text subteam to TF to polls.
17:00:13 <Judy> - Our next scheduled meeting is next Tuesday, 1pm, US Eastern. All welcome.
17:01:25 <LeonieW> CS: We were working on editorial stuff within the API mappings group.
17:01:34 <LeonieW> RS: Nothing to report from the canvas sub team.
17:01:49 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
17:01:50 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieW
17:01:52 <Zakim> -Judy
17:01:54 <Zakim> -Steve_Faulkner
17:01:54 <Zakim> -Cooper
17:01:55 <Zakim> -Léonie_Watson
17:01:55 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
17:01:56 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
17:02:13 <Zakim> -Rich
17:07:14 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Mike, in WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
17:07:15 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
17:07:15 <Zakim> Attendees were Cooper, John_Foliot, Mike, +44.117.929.aaaa, Rich, Léonie_Watson, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, Cynthia_Shelly, +1.206.619.aabb, Frank_Olivier, [Microsoft]
17:13:35 <janina> janina has left #html-a11y
18:41:23 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y