14:50:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eval
14:50:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-eval-irc
14:50:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:50:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eval
14:50:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
14:50:11 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
14:50:12 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
14:50:12 <trackbot> Date: 02 February 2012
14:53:06 <vivienne> vivienne has joined #eval
14:56:45 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
14:56:46 <MartijnHoutepen> MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval
14:56:48 <Liz_> Liz_ has joined #eval
14:56:53 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aaaa
14:57:01 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, aaaa is me
14:57:01 <Zakim> +MartijnHoutepen; got it
14:57:20 <ssirois> ssirois has joined #eval
14:57:41 <Zakim> + +1.301.975.aabb
14:58:05 <richard> richard has joined #eval
14:58:06 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #eval
14:58:49 <kerstin> kerstin has joined #eval
14:58:57 <Zakim> + +1.978.443.aacc
14:59:00 <Zakim> +??P10
14:59:19 <Kathy> zakim, aacc is Kathy
14:59:19 <Zakim> +Kathy; got it
14:59:25 <Zakim> +??P13
14:59:39 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:40 <ssirois> zakim, ??P10 is me
14:59:40 <Zakim> +ssirois; got it
14:59:46 <shadi> zakim, ipcaller is me
14:59:46 <Zakim> +shadi; got it
14:59:55 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see MartijnHoutepen, +1.301.975.aabb, Kathy, ssirois, ??P13, shadi
15:00:19 <Sarah_Swierenga> Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
15:00:33 <Zakim> + +1.520.271.aadd
15:00:45 <ssirois> zakim, mute me
15:00:45 <Zakim> ssirois should now be muted
15:00:48 <shadi> zakim, aabb is Liz
15:00:49 <Zakim> +Liz; got it
15:00:55 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, mute me
15:00:55 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:01:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:01:17 <shadi> zakim, ??p13 is Richard
15:01:20 <Zakim> +Richard; got it
15:01:45 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has joined #eval
15:01:49 <shadi> zakim, ipcaller is Kerstin
15:01:49 <Zakim> +Kerstin; got it
15:01:57 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aaee
15:02:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:03 <shadi> zakim, aadd is Don
15:02:03 <Zakim> +Don; got it
15:02:07 <Zakim> + +1.517.432.aaff
15:02:15 <Zakim> + +1.502.802.aagg
15:02:18 <vivienne> zakim, IP caller is me
15:02:18 <Zakim> I don't understand 'IP caller is me', vivienne
15:02:19 <shadi> zakim, aaee is Eric
15:02:20 <Zakim> +Eric; got it
15:02:31 <shadi> zakim, ipcaller is Vivienne
15:02:31 <Zakim> +Vivienne; got it
15:02:45 <shadi> zakim, aaff is Sarah
15:02:50 <Zakim> +Sarah; got it
15:02:52 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:02:55 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
15:03:03 <kerstin> zakim, mute
15:03:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mute', kerstin
15:03:04 <shadi> zakim, aagg is Elle
15:03:04 <Zakim> +Elle; got it
15:03:09 <kerstin> zakim, mute me
15:03:09 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
15:03:17 <Zakim> + +1.517.353.aahh
15:03:37 <shadi> zakim, aahh is Mike
15:03:38 <Zakim> +Mike; got it
15:03:45 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see MartijnHoutepen (muted), Liz, Kathy, ssirois (muted), Richard, shadi, Don, Kerstin (muted), Eric, Vivienne (muted), Sarah, Elle, Mike
15:03:56 <Mike_Elledge> Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
15:04:27 <ssirois> Welcome to Eval-TF Don.
15:05:11 <MartijnHoutepen> yes
15:05:15 <kerstin> Welcome Don
15:05:23 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, unmute me
15:05:23 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted
15:05:47 <shadi> scribe: Kathy
15:05:49 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, mute me
15:05:50 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:07:04 <kerstin> just because of cancelled meeting :-)
15:07:40 <Kathy> Eric - welcome.  There was an overview mail sent.  If you have not answered, please send your responses
15:09:25 <Kathy> Eric:  Discussion around any sample and the scope of the sample.  The comments will be added to the methodology.  Currently methodology states whole websites so that will be changed.
15:09:41 <Kathy> Eric:  Error margin will also be removed
15:10:21 <Kathy> Eric: Will create a new version this weekend and will send it out on Monday
15:10:33 <ericvelleman> q?
15:11:21 <Kathy> Eric:  Agenda point 2 - changes to the methodology; added citation code, UM to the references
15:12:04 <vivienne> can you put the link to the last version up?
15:12:13 <Kathy> Eric:   changes are color coded
15:12:24 <ericvelleman> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120125.html
15:12:35 <vivienne> thanks, Eric
15:13:46 <Kathy> Eric:  Agenda 3 - discussion on procedure to express scope
15:14:49 <Kathy> Eric:  scope of the website will be added to the document; will not be limited to the full website
15:15:10 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
15:15:10 <Zakim> Kathy should now be muted
15:16:08 <Kathy> Eric:   there could be pages that were not in the sample where they do not fully comply but it is possible to get a representative sample
15:16:21 <vivienne> q+
15:16:29 <Kathy> Eric:  Any thoughts on this and the overview?
15:16:36 <vivienne> ack me
15:16:37 <ericvelleman> q?
15:16:41 <kerstin> q+
15:16:43 <vivienne> q+
15:16:44 <Mike_Elledge> +1
15:17:13 <Kathy> Vivienne:  Would a web application be considered a website?
15:17:20 <Mike_Elledge_> Mike_Elledge_ has joined #eval
15:17:32 <ssirois> q+
15:18:10 <Kathy> Eric:  good questions, don't have an answer.  
15:18:12 <Elle> Elle has joined #eval
15:18:29 <Elle> +q
15:18:38 <shadi> q+ to ask for a definition of "website" as a self-enclosed entity, which could be an application or a subsite, rather than to say "portion of a website"
15:18:48 <richard> q+
15:18:55 <kerstin> zakim, unmute me
15:18:55 <Zakim> Kerstin should no longer be muted
15:18:55 <shadi> ack vivienne
15:19:04 <Mike_Elledge_> Seems like they would be treated the same way...
15:19:17 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:19:17 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
15:19:21 <Kathy> kerstin:  not sufficient to just check pages.  Also need to check elements.  Important because of the different editors
15:19:28 <shadi> ack ker
15:20:13 <Kathy> Eric:  already building this into the document
15:20:37 <Kathy> Eric:  single elements should be reviewed
15:20:39 <ssirois> ack me
15:20:47 <kerstin> zakim, mute me
15:20:47 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
15:20:48 <shadi> ack ssir
15:22:18 <shadi> regrets: Alistair, Detlev, Emmanuelle
15:22:34 <Kathy> ssirois:  We don't have to evaluate the full website.  The representative sample needs to cover the different types of contents.  Owner of the website should conform for the full site.  Bank example may require access to special services - these people may not want to use the full website so it is ok for sub-section of the website
15:23:02 <ssirois> zakim, mute me
15:23:02 <Zakim> ssirois should now be muted
15:23:05 <shadi> ack elle
15:24:26 <Mike_Elledge_> q+
15:24:35 <ssirois> agree with Elle that it could be a pitfall that the owner is responsible for choosing the sample.
15:24:49 <Kathy> Elle:  when we are talking about the scope defining scope by the website owner; they may abuse this.  
15:25:16 <Kathy> Elle:  we should be clear about expectations for defining scope 
15:25:48 <shadi> ack me
15:25:48 <Zakim> shadi, you wanted to ask for a definition of "website" as a self-enclosed entity, which could be an application or a subsite, rather than to say "portion of a website"
15:27:00 <Tim> Tim has joined #eval
15:27:35 <Kathy> shadi:  agrees with Elle,  portions of a website may be better stated as self-enclosed entity; WCAG can already evaluate pages; we need to go further 
15:27:44 <vivienne> I like the phrase, Shadi
15:28:19 <ericvelleman> q?
15:28:21 <Kathy> Eric:  need to create definition
15:28:27 <shadi> ack richard
15:29:09 <Kathy> Richard:  Shadi said what I wanted to say; portions should be removes; likes "self-enclosed entity"
15:29:13 <ssirois> for the record, my point was that i do agree that a representative sample is OK for conformance evaluation as long as the sample is representative in quantity AND quality. We must be able to trust the website owner that if the representative sample is conform, the rest should be. The bank example submitted on the list is dangerous. We must not use that representative sample in order to develop only an "accessible sub-portion" of a whole. I'll develop and send my
15:29:52 <shadi> ack mike
15:30:26 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
15:30:34 <Kathy> Mike:  what common terminology should be used to describe the conformance on a website.  Text will help give understanding
15:31:41 <vivienne> q+
15:31:49 <ericvelleman> q?
15:31:50 <Kathy> Eric:  will add this in and make notes about what was changed
15:31:56 <vivienne> ack me
15:32:35 <Kathy> vivienne:  procedure to express the scope (new text in purple), would you be adding XML sitemap?
15:33:29 <Kathy> Eric:  part of this question needs to be answered in reporting section.  Pages should be recorded in the conformance claim
15:34:12 <Kathy> Eric:  What do you lead people to the pages? 
15:34:28 <Kathy> Vivienne:  what about screen capture
15:34:40 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:34:40 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
15:34:55 <Kathy> Eric:  Anyone have an idea on how we can cover this?  
15:35:15 <Kathy> Elle - can we attached use cases?
15:36:02 <richard> q+
15:36:20 <Kathy> Elle:  this defined the steps; use cases are built on activities and functions; will be a way of expressing the pages when URLs don't apply
15:36:37 <Sarah_Swierenga> q+
15:37:40 <shadi> ack richard
15:37:57 <Kathy> richard:  key ingredient is the scope statement needs to be clear:  version, date should be included; URLs can change
15:38:00 <Zakim> -shadi
15:38:06 <kerstin> +1
15:38:19 <ssirois> +1 with the precision brought up by richard on the scope
15:38:24 <ericvelleman> q?
15:38:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:38:51 <shadi> ack sarah
15:39:20 <Kathy> Sarah:  agree with Elle; use cases can be helpful.  This describes the task and path.  Parts of pages should be included, this often has a name or nickname that can be included
15:39:36 <shadi> zakim, ipcaller is Richard
15:39:36 <Zakim> +Richard; got it
15:40:01 <Kathy> Eric:  Has enough to add to the document
15:41:22 <Kathy> Eric:  Sampling of pages; there are 3 categories:  core, random; task-oriented
15:41:22 <shadi> q+ to say that "self-enclosed entities" will still have some key features
15:42:11 <Sarah_Swierenga> q+
15:42:29 <kerstin> +q
15:42:35 <ssirois> q+
15:42:36 <Kathy> Eric:  Non-random sample - should we take this out; do we need the core set of resources or should we have different scenarios (full website or portion)
15:42:41 <ericvelleman> q?
15:42:56 <shadi> ack sarah
15:43:31 <Kathy> sarah - helpful to leave it in; they should be doing the full website; we should be strongly communicating the full website
15:43:37 <kerstin> zakim, unmute me
15:43:37 <Zakim> Kerstin should no longer be muted
15:43:44 <shadi> ack kerstin
15:44:12 <Kathy> Kerstin:  we should leave it in; webpage should be the rule; sections or portions should be marked as exceptions
15:44:18 <shadi> ack ssirois
15:44:19 <ssirois> ack me
15:44:26 <kerstin> zakim, mute me
15:44:26 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
15:44:56 <Mike_Elledge_> q+
15:45:38 <vivienne> q+
15:45:41 <Kathy> ssirois:  really likes the list of core resources.  If something goes wrong, users will be able to contact the owner to complain.
15:45:47 <ssirois> zakim, mute me
15:45:47 <Zakim> ssirois should now be muted
15:45:56 <shadi> ack shadi
15:45:56 <Zakim> shadi, you wanted to say that "self-enclosed entities" will still have some key features
15:46:30 <kerstin> +1 for the self-enclosed entities
15:46:53 <Kathy> Shadi:  agree with previous speakers; avoid saying portions of website; say self-enclosed entities.  We should add scenarios
15:47:09 <Kathy> Eric:  let's work on this definition
15:47:19 <shadi> ack mike
15:48:18 <Kathy> Mike:  helpful to make the distinction to look at the type of conformance claim; public facing portions vs sections of the site
15:49:13 <vivienne> ack me
15:50:18 <Kathy> Vivienne - likes the core resources; list can be used as the first resources; should be also use term landing page? - these are entry points
15:50:52 <Kathy> Vivienne: sections should be included and the landing pages define the start
15:51:05 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:51:05 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
15:51:29 <Tim> zakim, mute me
15:51:29 <Zakim> Tim_Boland should now be muted
15:51:34 <ericvelleman> q?
15:51:38 <vivienne> yes, that's fine
15:51:45 <Kathy> Eric:  theres could be many landing pages; self-enclosed entity could be this; landing pages would need to be defined as part of the conformance claim
15:52:39 <Sarah_Swierenga> Sorry, I need to sign-off now. Have a good week, everyone!
15:52:56 <Zakim> -Sarah
15:52:58 <vivienne> Oh Eric, have you any idea how hot it is here right now?
15:53:15 <Kathy> Eric:  random resources is from UM; more work needs to be done on this; if you have time read the random sampling document.  We will start a short discussion online
15:53:48 <ericvelleman> q?
15:53:53 <Kathy> Eric: we will not dive into this now; need to evaluate if this is relevant based on change of scope
15:54:13 <Kathy> Eric:  any questions on random section?
15:54:15 <vivienne> q+
15:54:21 <vivienne> ack me
15:55:05 <Kathy> vivienne:  when I am working on a random sample, try to check as many of the WCAG checkpoints - not just the similar pages
15:55:21 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:55:21 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
15:55:25 <Kathy> vivienne:  needs to be as representative as possible
15:55:32 <Zakim> -Elle
15:55:56 <kerstin> q+
15:56:11 <kerstin> zakim, unmute me
15:56:11 <Zakim> Kerstin should no longer be muted
15:56:12 <Kathy> Eric:  shadi will send minutes; eric will send new version on Monday and will send out new discussions
15:56:45 <shadi> ack kerstin
15:57:05 <Kathy> kerstin:  concerned about the terminolgy used.  Statistical terms being used have different meaning in our document - representative, sampling etc
15:57:39 <Kathy> Eric:  will send documentation; has been checked by statistical people
15:57:53 <kerstin> zakim, mute me
15:57:53 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
15:58:03 <ssirois> zakim, unmute me
15:58:03 <Zakim> ssirois should no longer be muted
15:58:08 <vivienne> bye now
15:58:08 <Kathy> Eric:  thanks for joining.  Look for the documents and see you next week
15:58:11 <MartijnHoutepen> bye
15:58:12 <vivienne> -vivienne
15:58:12 <kerstin> bye
15:58:14 <Mike_Elledge_> Bye all!
15:58:14 <Kathy> bye
15:58:15 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
15:58:16 <vivienne> vivienne has left #eval
15:58:18 <Zakim> -Don
15:58:19 <Zakim> -Mike
15:58:19 <Zakim> -Richard.a
15:58:20 <Zakim> -Richard
15:58:21 <Zakim> -Kathy
15:58:22 <Zakim> -Liz
15:58:22 <Zakim> -ssirois
15:58:23 <Zakim> -Vivienne
15:58:26 <MartijnHoutepen> #leave eval
15:58:33 <Zakim> -Eric
15:58:36 <MartijnHoutepen> leave #eval
15:58:40 <MartijnHoutepen> MartijnHoutepen has left #eval
15:59:20 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:21 <Zakim> -MartijnHoutepen
15:59:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Kerstin
15:59:42 <shadi> zakim drop kerstin
15:59:49 <shadi> zakim, drop kerstin
16:00:06 <Zakim> -Kerstin
16:00:13 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
16:00:15 <Zakim> Attendees were +31.30.239.aaaa, MartijnHoutepen, +1.301.975.aabb, +1.978.443.aacc, Kathy, ssirois, shadi, +1.520.271.aadd, Liz, Richard, Kerstin, +31.30.239.aaee, Don,
16:00:17 <Zakim> ... +1.517.432.aaff, +1.502.802.aagg, Eric, Vivienne, Sarah, Elle, +1.517.353.aahh, Mike, Tim_Boland
16:00:20 <Zakim> sorry, shadi, I don't know what conference this is
16:01:35 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
16:01:35 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:01:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:01:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/02-eval-minutes.html trackbot
16:01:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:01:44 <RRSAgent> I see no action items