IRC log of ua on 2012-01-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:32:20 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:32:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-ua-irc
17:32:36 [JAllan]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:33:00 [JAllan]
zakim, this will be WAI-UA
17:33:00 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, JAllan
17:33:11 [JAllan]
zakim, this will be UAWG
17:33:11 [Zakim]
ok, JAllan; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
17:33:29 [JAllan]
chair: KellyFord, JimAllan
17:33:50 [JAllan]
meeting: User Agent Working Group telecon
17:34:41 [JAllan]
regrets: Jan, Greg
17:35:01 [JAllan]
rrsagent make minutes
17:35:09 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:35:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-ua-minutes.html JAllan
17:39:40 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #ua
17:53:59 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
17:54:13 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:54:13 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
17:56:07 [JAllan]
agenda+ Wayne's Proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0027.html
17:56:17 [JAllan]
agenda+ number of A, AA, AAA https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiGLIaAlHSKdHNrcGNacUp2MHdXQW9sUmpBQ21Lenc&hl=en_US#gid=0 contact Kim if you can't get in. Please fill in before the meeting. We need your opinion on levels.
17:56:26 [JAllan]
agenda+ review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones
17:56:43 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:57:06 [JAllan]
agenda+ survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120119/
17:59:53 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:59:59 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
18:02:36 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:02:50 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
18:02:53 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:03:16 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
18:03:16 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
18:03:19 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:03:23 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:03:23 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:03:24 [Zakim]
1. Wayne's Proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0027.html [from JAllan]
18:03:27 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:03:30 [Zakim]
2. number of A, AA, AAA https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiGLIaAlHSKdHNrcGNacUp2MHdXQW9sUmpBQ21Lenc&hl=en_US#gid=0 contact Kim if you can't get in. Please fill in
18:03:35 [Zakim]
... before the meeting. We need your opinion on levels. [from JAllan]
18:03:37 [Zakim]
3. review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones [from JAllan]
18:03:40 [Zakim]
4. survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120119/ [from JAllan]
18:06:02 [Zakim]
+Mark
18:08:58 [JAllan]
levels - benefit multiple groups, how many people it benefits, how hard is it to do
18:09:19 [JAllan]
... how much a a barrier is eliminated
18:09:47 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
18:10:02 [kford]
Scribe: kford
18:10:09 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-ua-minutes.html kford
18:10:18 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:10:18 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:10:19 [Zakim]
1. Wayne's Proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0027.html [from JAllan]
18:10:22 [Zakim]
2. number of A, AA, AAA https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiGLIaAlHSKdHNrcGNacUp2MHdXQW9sUmpBQ21Lenc&hl=en_US#gid=0 contact Kim if you can't get in. Please fill in
18:10:27 [Zakim]
... before the meeting. We need your opinion on levels. [from JAllan]
18:10:28 [Zakim]
3. review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones [from JAllan]
18:10:30 [Zakim]
4. survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120119/ [from JAllan]
18:10:45 [kford]
regrets:Jan Greg
18:11:12 [kford]
zakim, agend+ UA Levels
18:11:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agend+ UA Levels', kford
18:11:25 [kford]
zakim, agenda+ UA Levels
18:11:25 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
18:11:31 [kford]
zakim, take up item 5
18:11:31 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "UA Levels" taken up [from kford]
18:11:44 [kford]
KP: I think we need to think about how many users something impacts.
18:12:08 [JAllan]
levels - benefit multiple groups, how many people it benefits, how hard is it to do
18:12:09 [JAllan]
... how much a a barrier is eliminated
18:12:21 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:12:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-ua-minutes.html kford
18:13:06 [JAllan]
from UAAG 10
18:13:12 [JAllan]
Priorities
18:13:13 [JAllan]
Each checkpoint in this document is assigned a priority that indicates its importance for users with disabilities.
18:13:15 [Wayne]
Wayne has joined #ua
18:13:15 [JAllan]
Priority 1 (P1)
18:13:16 [JAllan]
If the user agent does not satisfy this checkpoint, one or more groups of users with disabilities will find it impossible to access the Web. Satisfying this checkpoint is a basic requirement for enabling some people to access the Web.
18:13:18 [JAllan]
Priority 2 (P2)
18:13:20 [JAllan]
If the user agent does not satisfy this checkpoint, one or more groups of users with disabilities will find it difficult to access the Web. Satisfying this checkpoint will remove significant barriers to Web access for some people.
18:13:22 [JAllan]
Priority 3 (P3)
18:13:23 [JAllan]
If the user agent satisfies this checkpoint, one or more groups of users with disabilities will find it easier to access the Web.
18:13:25 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/guidelines.html#Priorities
18:13:54 [jeanne]
barrier, implementations, difficulty, number of people benefit
18:13:59 [JAllan]
3.1.4 Conformance levels
18:14:00 [JAllan]
Each conformance level defines a set of requirements, based on priority.
18:14:02 [JAllan]
Conformance level "A": the requirements of all Priority 1 checkpoints
18:14:04 [JAllan]
Conformance level "Double-A": the requirements of all Priority 1 and 2 checkpoints
18:14:05 [JAllan]
Conformance level "Triple-A": the requirements of all Priority 1, 2, and 3 checkpoints
18:14:10 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/conformance.html#conformance-levels
18:14:32 [Zakim]
+Wayne
18:16:34 [kford]
KP: I use an example of people walking across a room and pausing.
18:16:35 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:16:41 [sharper]
zakim, code?
18:16:41 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sharper
18:17:08 [kford]
KP: Wheu youhave to pause repeatedly you start to realize this is a problem.
18:17:12 [Zakim]
+??P17
18:17:22 [kford]
JA: When does this cross from accessibility to usability.
18:17:24 [sharper]
zakim, ??P17 is sharper
18:17:24 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:17:45 [kford]
KP: I can be hard to judge this across many disabilities.
18:17:53 [sharper]
present+ Harper_Simon
18:18:01 [kford]
WD: I think the difference between accessibility and usability is easy to define.
18:20:10 [KimPatch]
excise is work over the work you're doing
18:20:11 [KimPatch]
excise that's a conflict between software and disability is accessibility
18:20:52 [JAllan]
x size = amount of work beyond the task that your are doing divided by the task effort
18:21:11 [kford]
WD: If you are in a word processor and you have to think about a bunch of other tasks just to do what you want, this is an accessibility issue.
18:22:24 [JAllan]
software does not get in the way of what you are doing
18:22:53 [kford]
WD: Excise comes from usability.
18:23:39 [kford]
KP: Much of the software that we are talking about, it is easy to say this when it comes to standard software but if the software itself has issues, such as the AT, then this can problems can be present no matter what.
18:25:58 [kford]
WD: We are not able to control what the assistive technology does but we can control is what the user agnet impacts.
18:26:30 [kford]
JA: Explaining why we are talking about priorities. JB would like UAAG to define how priorities are arrived at.
18:26:37 [kford]
zakim, close item 5
18:26:37 [Zakim]
agendum 5, UA Levels, closed
18:26:38 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:26:39 [Zakim]
1. Wayne's Proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0027.html [from JAllan]
18:26:46 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
18:26:46 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Wayne's Proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0027.html" taken up [from JAllan]
18:26:53 [JAllan]
more info http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/cssStrengths.html
18:27:39 [kford]
JA: recaps how we arrived at this point.
18:27:53 [kford]
WD: 1.7 was about stylesheets for HTML browsers.
18:28:16 [kford]
WD: I was taksed with something beyond browsers. I came up with a concept of style profiles.
18:30:04 [kford]
WD: For HTML stylesheets are really the best way to create accessible pages for readers with low vision.
18:30:28 [kford]
WD: There are problems. For example not a lot of people who can write them, especially for end users.
18:31:33 [sharper]
FYI http://www.w3.org/community/cssacc/
18:32:01 [kford]
WD: I believe really want the choice between what the author gives or something they've managed to obtain and that they likely want to do this dynamically.
18:32:36 [JAllan]
thanks Simon.
18:33:32 [sharper]
also RDWG topic - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/CSS_Accessibility if anyone would like to bring this together as a webinar and w3cnote
18:34:07 [kford]
WD: For the bread and butter HTML browser, the user should have access to choose between the author stylesheet and a user stylesheet but a user stylesheet doesn't mean that the user had to write it. Think of the stylesheet as an assisitve technology.
18:35:38 [sharper]
Also see Vicki Hanson's work on CSS styles for older users (when she was at IBM Watson)
18:35:46 [kford]
WD: First thing we want is true separation.
18:36:14 [kford]
WD: Second it needs to be able to address all kinds of user populations, be flexible.
18:36:36 [kford]
WD: We need an isomorphic (sp) image of the page.
18:37:04 [kford]
WD: Youneed to preserve the visual symantics of the page.
18:37:30 [kford]
WD: Finally you need to be able to change the interface without author permission.
18:38:21 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0027.html
18:39:34 [kford]
JA: What I hear is that user agents should support user stylesheets, users should be able to change dynamically and turn things off.
18:40:06 [kford]
JA goes over what he sees in WD's proposal
18:40:41 [kford]
JA: This is different and I think less controversial than what we have today.
18:41:36 [kford]
WD will be crafting text that reflects this discussed behavior.
18:42:05 [kford]
KP: I liked WD's background explanation.
18:42:14 [kford]
MH: I found it useful to hear.
18:43:28 [kford]
Group talking about how to keep some of this background and such in the doc as an intent.
18:49:41 [sharper]
scribe: Harper_Simon
18:49:41 [sharper]
ScribeNick: sharper
18:50:44 [sharper]
WD: to contact http://www.w3.org/community/cssacc/ re the guidelines for their comments too.
18:51:53 [sharper]
zakim, agenda?
18:51:53 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:51:54 [Zakim]
1. Wayne's Proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0027.html [from JAllan]
18:51:57 [Zakim]
2. number of A, AA, AAA https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiGLIaAlHSKdHNrcGNacUp2MHdXQW9sUmpBQ21Lenc&hl=en_US#gid=0 contact Kim if you can't get in. Please fill in
18:52:01 [Zakim]
... before the meeting. We need your opinion on levels. [from JAllan]
18:52:02 [Zakim]
3. review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones [from JAllan]
18:52:05 [Zakim]
4. survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120119/ [from JAllan]
18:52:50 [sharper]
Action: Wayne to handle the rewrite of the CSS 1.7
18:52:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-710 - Handle the rewrite of the CSS 1.7 [on Wayne Dick - due 2012-02-02].
18:52:54 [sharper]
zakim, close item 1
18:52:54 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Wayne's Proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0027.html, closed
18:52:56 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:52:58 [Zakim]
2. number of A, AA, AAA https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiGLIaAlHSKdHNrcGNacUp2MHdXQW9sUmpBQ21Lenc&hl=en_US#gid=0 contact Kim if you can't get in. Please fill in
18:53:00 [Zakim]
... before the meeting. We need your opinion on levels. [from JAllan]
18:55:24 [JAllan]
Barrier walkthrough - Giorgio Brajnik
18:55:25 [JAllan]
www.dimi.uniud.it/giorgio/projects/bw/bw.html
18:55:48 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 2
18:55:48 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "number of A, AA, AAA https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiGLIaAlHSKdHNrcGNacUp2MHdXQW9sUmpBQ21Lenc&hl=en_US#gid=0 contact Kim if you can't get in. Please
18:55:52 [Zakim]
... fill in before the meeting. We need your opinion on levels." taken up [from JAllan]
18:56:20 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 4
18:56:20 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120119/" taken up [from JAllan]
18:56:34 [JAllan]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120119/results
18:57:09 [sharper]
topic: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120119/results#xq1
18:57:28 [sharper]
4 agree and 1 disagree
18:58:20 [sharper]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2012/ED-UAAG20-20120119/#gl-missing-alt
18:59:42 [sharper]
MH: not sure how you would do this ie 1.2.1
19:01:57 [sharper]
Discussion about how we could do this - YouTube Example
19:02:31 [sharper]
KP: like the example - saying it's and advanced example and not a requirement
19:02:40 [sharper]
s/and/an
19:03:42 [sharper]
JS: nothing does this today - so how can this be level a?
19:04:27 [sharper]
KP: GL suggested that we'd be forced to take the advanced example - not according to the written example - is this just a working issue?
19:09:33 [JAllan]
discussion of Levels by the group
19:11:49 [JAllan]
ff has 'properties' associated for images (location, type, size, dimensions, associated text, and url, as well as more info) would this count as a repair
19:13:12 [JAllan]
sh: decide on SCs first then add the levels
19:13:24 [JAllan]
kp: need to look at the whole
19:13:41 [sharper]
KP: trying to understand the top-three from each of us.
19:14:43 [JAllan]
kf: everyone has a budget and gets to vote on SC ...
19:18:20 [JAllan]
sh: having the FF properties would work for 121-123
19:18:25 [sharper]
WD: important to define what can be automatically determined when deciding on levels.
19:21:16 [sharper]
JS: lets define the levels - what are they, rate stuff 1-5 and then just add this up to get the level via a numeric judgement.
19:21:43 [sharper]
KP: tweek, re how many people this may benefit.
19:22:35 [sharper]
RESOLVED: Levels sub group - KP, KF, JS, WD
19:23:37 [sharper]
Action: sharper to take a swing at 1.2
19:23:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-711 - Take a swing at 1.2 [on Simon Harper - due 2012-02-02].
19:23:54 [sharper]
RESOLVED: Action-711
19:24:12 [sharper]
topic: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120119/results#xq2
19:24:20 [sharper]
Everyone happy to delete
19:24:57 [sharper]
RESOLVED: delete 5.4.2
19:25:12 [sharper]
topic: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120119/results#xq3
19:25:27 [sharper]
RESOLVED: Combine 5.2, 5.3 and 5.4 into one guideline
19:25:51 [sharper]
zakim, close item 4
19:25:51 [Zakim]
agendum 4, survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120119/, closed
19:25:54 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:25:56 [Zakim]
2. number of A, AA, AAA https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiGLIaAlHSKdHNrcGNacUp2MHdXQW9sUmpBQ21Lenc&hl=en_US#gid=0 contact Kim if you can't get in. Please fill in
19:25:59 [Zakim]
... before the meeting. We need your opinion on levels. [from JAllan]
19:26:29 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 3
19:26:29 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones" taken up [from JAllan]
19:26:42 [sharper]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones
19:27:21 [sharper]
KF: huge desire to understand the mobile space better for accessibility
19:27:42 [sharper]
KF: our guidelines address mobile MH KP JS
19:28:15 [sharper]
JS: as a group look and endorse - and write and executive summary for it.
19:29:03 [sharper]
RESOLVED: Whole group to review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones this week so we can say we agree.
19:29:34 [sharper]
KP: Did this for 2 and where mobile applies we are missing mobile examples - maybe we need mobile examples....
19:29:37 [sharper]
JA: useful
19:30:05 [sharper]
JA: in EX Summary - dig out our keyboard discussion - any input device ...
19:30:24 [sharper]
JS: examples will be very helpful - concerned re scope creap
19:30:58 [sharper]
JA: Deadline is TUESDAY
19:31:09 [sharper]
RESOLVED: Deadline is TUESDAY
19:32:07 [sharper]
JA: same examples format as standard intent
19:32:41 [sharper]
rrsagent, make logs public
19:32:41 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:32:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:34:14 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:34:31 [Zakim]
-kford
19:35:18 [Zakim]
-Mark
19:35:34 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
19:35:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Kim_Patch, Wayne
19:35:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Wayne, mhakkinen, KimPatch, jeanne, kford, trackbot, RRSAgent, Zakim, JAllan
19:37:28 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
19:37:51 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:37:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:37:57 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
19:38:55 [JAllan]
present + Kim, Jim, Kelly, Jeanne, Wayne, Mark
19:39:09 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:39:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:40:12 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 3
19:40:12 [Zakim]
agendum 3, review mobile wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones, closed
19:40:14 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
19:40:16 [Zakim]
2. number of A, AA, AAA https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiGLIaAlHSKdHNrcGNacUp2MHdXQW9sUmpBQ21Lenc&hl=en_US#gid=0 contact Kim if you can't get in. Please fill in
19:40:19 [Zakim]
... before the meeting. We need your opinion on levels. [from JAllan]
19:40:27 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:40:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:40:48 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
19:40:48 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Kim_Patch, kford, Mark, Wayne, sharper
19:40:48 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:41:05 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:41:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:41:38 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
19:41:38 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-ua-actions.rdf :
19:41:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Wayne to handle the rewrite of the CSS 1.7 [1]
19:41:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-ua-irc#T18-52-50
19:41:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: sharper to take a swing at 1.2 [2]
19:41:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-ua-irc#T19-23-37