19:59:55 RRSAgent has joined #svg 19:59:55 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-svg-irc 19:59:57 RRSAgent, make logs public 19:59:57 Zakim has joined #svg 19:59:59 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 19:59:59 ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM already started 20:00:00 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 20:00:00 Date: 26 January 2012 20:01:03 +??P3 20:01:10 Zakim, ??P3 is me 20:01:10 +ed; got it 20:02:28 cyril has joined #svg 20:03:06 cabanier has joined #svg 20:03:29 zakim, +1.206.734.aaa is me 20:03:29 +cabanier; got it 20:03:37 Zakim: and me? 20:03:50 + +29805aabb 20:04:13 Zakim: who's here 20:04:15 zakim, Olivier_Goldman is krit 20:04:15 sorry, cyril, I do not recognize a party named 'Olivier_Goldman' 20:04:18 +??P5 20:04:20 Zakim, ??P5 is me 20:04:20 +heycam; got it 20:04:22 zakim, Oliver_Goldman is krit 20:04:22 +krit; got it 20:04:27 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0038.html 20:05:06 Chair: ed 20:05:31 zakim, +29805aabb is me 20:05:31 +cyril; got it 20:05:33 Zakim, pick a victim? 20:05:33 I don't understand your question, ed. 20:05:40 Zakim, pick a scribe 20:05:40 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose heycam 20:06:01 scribenick: cabanier 20:06:20 +Tav 20:06:39 topic: CSS Transforms and the behavior of SVG DOM 20:06:44 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms#CSSOM_issues 20:07:01 krit: I'm working on the merged css transform specification 20:07:05 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms 20:07:23 krit: I found some possible SVG DOM issues 20:07:25 plinss has joined #svg 20:07:35 krit: issue 11 20:07:58 Issue 11: Interaction of SVG DOMs SVGTransformList and SVGTransform to the CSS property 20:08:04 On transforming the SVG attribute transform' to a presentation attribute, the interaction of SVG DOM with CSSOM must be clarified. While an SVG attribute has a one-dimensional hierarchy where the value can just be influenced by the unique SVGTransformList, CSS had different cascading. Like described for CSSOm above, it is difficult to map cascading to the one-dimensional hierarchy, since different 20:08:04 style sheets can affect the style of an element and there for can have different affects to computed style. Computed itself style doesn't allow modifications. 20:08:42 krit: how can SVG DOM work with CSS? 20:10:01 krit: my proposal is to add a new stylesheet 20:10:20 Follow other presenattion attributes with transform 20:10:22 ChrisL has joined #svg 20:10:28 Creating new Author style sheet 20:11:08 +ChrisL 20:11:15 the hierarchy of the author style sheet is after UA style sheets and before other author style sheets 20:11:29 SVG DOM should reflect the new created style sheet 20:12:24 heycam: this is just make the SVG DOM expose the stylesheet 20:12:41 the style sheet for the presentation attributes (the low priority one) that is 20:13:01 s/priority/specicicity/ 20:13:04 heycam: on first reading this sounds reasonable 20:13:25 s/specicicity/specificity/ 20:13:27 heycam: people might be confused that CSS rules are not reflected in SVG DOM 20:14:16 heycam: we had a discussion that make the baseline the initial value 20:14:45 s/baseline/base value/ 20:15:19 it was "inline style" not "initial value", no? 20:15:28 yes 20:15:38 heycam: reading out the value would get you the animated transform 20:16:02 chrisl: animval is the computed val? 20:16:26 so the base value reflects the presentation attribute and the animval reflects the computed value 20:16:36 heycam: basevalue and animval can reflect different thing 20:16:44 krit: animval is the computed value 20:16:51 ed: that makes most sense 20:17:12 krit: that is not defined at the moment 20:17:29 krit: it makes most sense to have a list of animated values as well 20:17:40 agree a tranfrom list is more useful 20:18:10 heycam: it is more useful to inspect to have a list of transform item rather than a flat matrix 20:18:21 s/that makes most sense/that makes most sense but I'm concerned about whether that means a flattened matrix, or if it's a list of matrices/ 20:18:32 chrisl: you can always create a matrix, but no the other way round 20:18:57 cyril: why is this so different? 20:19:21 cyril: is it because of the cascade? 20:19:36 kris: yes, the transform property has the cascade 20:20:11 heycam: transform is now becoming a presentation attribute and we have to figure out what that means for the SVG DOM 20:20:51 heycam: there is no access to the CSS dom from SVG. There is no .fill attribute 20:21:06 krit: there is no animval/baseval to fill 20:21:23 heycam: I agree with Dirk's proposal. It matches what I was thinking of. 20:21:52 cabanier has joined #svg 20:22:43 I prefer Dirk's suggestion because if you don't use transform in style="" or in CSS style sheets, then the SVG DOM for transform works the same as it always has. 20:23:01 heycam: it also works with the animval 20:23:41 heycam: by having animval reflect the computed style, it will looks the same as before 20:24:23 cyril: patrick's proposal has the same proplem 20:24:38 heycam: yes, we would want a consistent solution 20:25:41 ed: what does 'works with animval' mean? 20:25:45 s/patrick's proposal has the same proplem/does patrick's proposal to turn some attributes into properties has the same problem ? If so, is the current solution also applicable?/ 20:26:43 yes we do 20:26:45 issue 12 20:26:53 krit: can we do 3d transform on SVG as well? 20:27:09 krit: we would need new interfaces for perspective, etc 20:27:17 yes, we would 20:27:49 krit: do we want to extend SVG interfaces to access 3d transforms? 20:27:53 s/on SVG as well/on SVGTransformList/ 20:28:29 krit: we would have to specify everything that is in CSS, in SVG as well 20:28:57 heycam: I don't think it's that much work, since it pretty simple 20:29:25 heycam: otherwise we would have to specify what happens when you read out the transformlist 20:30:04 krit: I would specify that it's unresolvable. SVG DOM would just return undefined 20:30:25 krit: you would access everything with CSS and this would make things backward compatible 20:30:50 heycam: I guess we'll have similar issue with other issues 20:31:02 heycam: ie by using 'calc' in css 20:31:12 krit: yes, it is a general issue 20:31:49 krit: I would stop developing SVG DOM for these use cases 20:32:13 s/stop developing/not develop 20:32:46 heycam: yes, maybe we'll use the CSSOM to manipulate 20:33:42 heycam: if we improve the SVG DOM, should we target transform or should we do that in CSS? 20:33:51 krit: just do it in CSS 20:34:33 heycam: ie accessing width/height of a rectangle 20:36:30 krit: if you have SVG length, you can drop the 'px' but not in CSS 20:36:48 krit: I think the group should work on allowing that in CSS 20:36:51 glenn has joined #svg 20:37:12 heycam: in CSS you can using units, while in SVG you can't 20:37:32 heycam: ie you can use '%' in CSS while in SVG you can't 20:38:00 krit: maybe we should resolve % to pixel in SVG 20:38:09 heycam: that would be possible 20:38:57 heycam: I'm OK with returning unknown type 20:39:11 ed: in practice, people will use the CSSOM 20:39:43 ed: since if you use the CSS feature, you will want to use that interface anyway 20:39:54 ed: we should try to make the CSSOM as good as possible 20:40:00 krit: yes 20:40:19 krit: I would like to have the same features in CSSOM that we have in SVG now 20:40:57 krit: make the CCSS interface such as transformlist live 20:41:26 heycam: does the combined transforms spec define any CSSOM interfaces? 20:41:54 krit: we have not specified transformlist but have css matrix 20:42:10 heycam: so if you use getcomputedstyle you will get them back? 20:43:25 krit: changes to cssmatrix are reflected in css transform as well. 20:43:54 krit: css transforms are more complicated than other css features 20:44:14 heycam: this is more a question for the CSS people 20:44:28 chrisl: it's not clear who is editing that. 20:44:39 heycam: glenn is supposed to be editing that 20:46:56 resolution: for issue 11 and 12, we will accept the recommended solutions (see: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms#SVG_DOM_issues) 20:48:29 topic: OpenType and SVG 20:48:55 krit: the problem are not willing to implement SVG fonts 20:49:13 chrisl: I proposed that we implement only WOFF 20:49:40 chrisl: it's very clear that mozilla and microsoft are not going to implement this 20:50:33 chrisl: there is a proposal to add SVG fonts to OpenType 20:50:35 plinss_ has joined #svg 20:50:47 chrisl: my feeling is that is longer term than SVG2 20:51:07 heycam: we have an intern working on this. 20:51:41 heycam: SVG glyphs inside OpenType 20:52:01 chrisl: there is no consensus how this format will look like 20:52:07 https://wiki.mozilla.org/SVGOpenTypeFonts 20:52:12 heycam: let me give you a link to the bug 20:52:16 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719286 20:52:36 heycam: I have never seen that page before 20:52:44 chrisl: me neither 20:53:14 heycam: this looks more like brainstorming 20:53:44 chrisl: this page should be updated with pointers to mailing lists, etc 20:54:16 heycam: the idea for the intern is to see how this works and report back 20:54:50 chrisl: I'm worried that the message will be that we already figured it out 20:55:08 chrisl: experimentation is great though. I'm very pleased 20:55:49 chrisl: sairus from Adobe is working on this 20:56:19 cabanier: I believe Sairus has a proposal. I can ping him. 20:56:59 http://www.w3.org/community/svgopentype/ 20:57:04 dirk: we need to find a way to have a public discussion ie by a mailing list 20:57:37 chrisl: I started the community group because people were emailing many groups 20:57:51 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svgopentype/ 20:57:52 chrisl: have a central location that is archived is important 20:59:01 chrisl: woff encapsulates OpenType 20:59:13 chrisl: CSS3 also mandates OT 20:59:30 chrisl: we are also going that way 21:00:15 so if opentype adds this, svg will use it. discussion should be on the community group 21:00:34 resolution: any discussion should happen on the SVG OpenType group (http://www.w3.org/community/svgopentype/) 21:01:56 +[Microsoft] 21:02:24 cabanier has joined #svg 21:02:44 topic: SVG2 Requirements 21:02:45 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input 21:03:07 cyril: I will edit the wiki page 21:03:44 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#the_.3CsolidColor.3E_element 21:03:56 -ChrisL 21:04:45 +ChrisL 21:05:00 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#solid-color 21:05:27 chrisl: it's a single element gradient 21:05:31 zakim, pointer 21:05:31 I don't understand 'pointer', cyril 21:05:38 rrsagent, pointer 21:05:38 See http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-svg-irc#T21-05-38 21:05:44 -Tav 21:06:21 chrisl: it's for paint servers, that are pointed to by a url 21:06:28 -[Microsoft] 21:06:38 +Tav 21:06:52 krit: can't this be done with CSS right now? 21:06:54 plinss has joined #svg 21:06:59 21:07:12 chrisl: not sure. by having the same class and style rule 21:08:21 chris: css animation would select a class, right? 21:08:25 krit: yes 21:09:18 krit: if you use a selector that is less specific, does the animation not happen? 21:09:43 krit: regardless of using this in CSS, people today are working around this with gradients. 21:10:04 tav: inkscape has a horrible patch to do this with a one stop gradient 21:10:45 chrisl: a solid color is really what you want to do. SVG 1.1 had it in there. It seems like a solid feature 21:11:43 and 1.2T had it too 21:11:47 tav: inkscape would have a much simpler solution if it was in there 21:11:48 and inkscape needs it 21:12:19 cyril: could inkscape do it will CSS classes? 21:12:22 so essentially it transforms into ... 21:12:28 tav: inkscape doesn't do classes 21:13:04 I think it wouldn't work with CSS, since you either need to have various different style rules for different properties, so you lose the ability to change the colour in a single place. 21:13:09 s/do it will/define a color palette with/ 21:13:23 s/wouldn't work with CSS/you couldn't just do this with CSS/ 21:14:13 heycam: CSS variables seems to be solving the same use case 21:14:27 chrisl: having named colors 21:14:53 is one of the primary reason for them. This is a very useful feature. 21:15:17 it regularises the syntax so that you can use a paint server for solid as well as radient and pattern fills. 21:15:29 heycam: CSS variables is still far away but it would be good to avoid the same feature twice 21:15:32 also, you can animate the url to go from a solid to a gradient ad back 21:15:38 its very flexible 21:15:59 ed: this is very simple to implement. It doesn't add much code 21:16:53 resolution: we will add solid-color element to SVG2 21:17:25 s/solid-color/solidColor/ 21:17:35 s/solid-color/solid-color and solid-opacity property 21:18:41 topic: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#text-align 21:19:09 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#xml:id 21:19:29 topic: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#xml:id 21:19:35 chrisl: we should drop it 21:19:42 everyone: agreed 21:19:50 resolution: drop XML:id 21:20:17 topic: role, rel, rev, about, content, datatype, property, resource, typeof 21:20:30 chrisl: hasn't seen much use but it is used in HTML 21:20:50 heycam: doesn't exactly match with what HTML5 has since they start with item 21:21:31 krit: I think it's great but should match HTML5 21:21:54 heycam: HTML5 doesn't require RDFA and microdata 21:22:23 cabanier has joined #svg 21:22:24 s/hasn't seen much use/was added to support RDFa and microdate, but hasn't seen much use/ 21:22:58 heycam: microdata came with a set of DOM interfaces that we want to support 21:23:03 chrisl: yes 21:23:52 heycam: scannig the HTML5 spec, I don't see where RDFA is required. 21:24:04 heycam: maybe there is a seperate spec 21:24:19 s/scannig/scanning 21:24:45 chrisl: RDFlite is I believe 21:25:04 chrisl: it could be that the spec hasn't been updated 21:25:33 resolution: for RDFa and microdata follow what HTML does 21:26:10 topic: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#display-align 21:27:03 this depends on