IRC log of svg on 2012-01-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:59:55 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
19:59:57 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:59:57 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
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ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM already started
20:00:00 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:00:00 [trackbot]
Date: 26 January 2012
20:01:03 [Zakim]
20:01:10 [ed]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
20:01:10 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:02:28 [cyril]
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20:03:29 [cabanier]
zakim, is me
20:03:29 [Zakim]
+cabanier; got it
20:03:37 [krit]
Zakim: and me?
20:03:50 [Zakim]
+ +29805aabb
20:04:13 [krit]
Zakim: who's here
20:04:15 [cyril]
zakim, Olivier_Goldman is krit
20:04:15 [Zakim]
sorry, cyril, I do not recognize a party named 'Olivier_Goldman'
20:04:18 [Zakim]
20:04:20 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
20:04:20 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
20:04:22 [cyril]
zakim, Oliver_Goldman is krit
20:04:22 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
20:04:27 [ed]
20:05:06 [ed]
Chair: ed
20:05:31 [cyril]
zakim, +29805aabb is me
20:05:31 [Zakim]
+cyril; got it
20:05:33 [ed]
Zakim, pick a victim?
20:05:33 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, ed.
20:05:40 [ed]
Zakim, pick a scribe
20:05:40 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose heycam
20:06:01 [cabanier]
scribenick: cabanier
20:06:20 [Zakim]
20:06:39 [cabanier]
topic: CSS Transforms and the behavior of SVG DOM
20:06:44 [ed]
20:07:01 [cabanier]
krit: I'm working on the merged css transform specification
20:07:05 [krit]
20:07:23 [cabanier]
krit: I found some possible SVG DOM issues
20:07:25 [plinss]
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20:07:35 [cabanier]
krit: issue 11
20:07:58 [cabanier]
Issue 11: Interaction of SVG DOMs SVGTransformList and SVGTransform to the CSS property
20:08:04 [cabanier]
On transforming the SVG attribute transform' to a presentation attribute, the interaction of SVG DOM with CSSOM must be clarified. While an SVG attribute has a one-dimensional hierarchy where the value can just be influenced by the unique SVGTransformList, CSS had different cascading. Like described for CSSOm above, it is difficult to map cascading to the one-dimensional hierarchy, since different
20:08:04 [cabanier]
style sheets can affect the style of an element and there for can have different affects to computed style. Computed itself style doesn't allow modifications.
20:08:42 [cabanier]
krit: how can SVG DOM work with CSS?
20:10:01 [cabanier]
krit: my proposal is to add a new stylesheet
20:10:20 [krit]
Follow other presenattion attributes with transform
20:10:22 [ChrisL]
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20:10:28 [krit]
Creating new Author style sheet
20:11:08 [Zakim]
20:11:15 [krit]
the hierarchy of the author style sheet is after UA style sheets and before other author style sheets
20:11:29 [krit]
SVG DOM should reflect the new created style sheet
20:12:24 [cabanier]
heycam: this is just make the SVG DOM expose the stylesheet
20:12:41 [heycam]
the style sheet for the presentation attributes (the low priority one) that is
20:13:01 [ChrisL]
20:13:04 [cabanier]
heycam: on first reading this sounds reasonable
20:13:25 [ChrisL]
20:13:27 [cabanier]
heycam: people might be confused that CSS rules are not reflected in SVG DOM
20:14:16 [cabanier]
heycam: we had a discussion that make the baseline the initial value
20:14:45 [cyril]
s/baseline/base value/
20:15:19 [ed]
it was "inline style" not "initial value", no?
20:15:28 [ChrisL]
20:15:38 [cabanier]
heycam: reading out the value would get you the animated transform
20:16:02 [cabanier]
chrisl: animval is the computed val?
20:16:26 [ChrisL]
so the base value reflects the presentation attribute and the animval reflects the computed value
20:16:36 [cabanier]
heycam: basevalue and animval can reflect different thing
20:16:44 [cabanier]
krit: animval is the computed value
20:16:51 [cabanier]
ed: that makes most sense
20:17:12 [cabanier]
krit: that is not defined at the moment
20:17:29 [cabanier]
krit: it makes most sense to have a list of animated values as well
20:17:40 [ChrisL]
agree a tranfrom list is more useful
20:18:10 [cabanier]
heycam: it is more useful to inspect to have a list of transform item rather than a flat matrix
20:18:21 [ed]
s/that makes most sense/that makes most sense but I'm concerned about whether that means a flattened matrix, or if it's a list of matrices/
20:18:32 [cabanier]
chrisl: you can always create a matrix, but no the other way round
20:18:57 [cabanier]
cyril: why is this so different?
20:19:21 [cabanier]
cyril: is it because of the cascade?
20:19:36 [cabanier]
kris: yes, the transform property has the cascade
20:20:11 [cabanier]
heycam: transform is now becoming a presentation attribute and we have to figure out what that means for the SVG DOM
20:20:51 [cabanier]
heycam: there is no access to the CSS dom from SVG. There is no .fill attribute
20:21:06 [cabanier]
krit: there is no animval/baseval to fill
20:21:23 [cabanier]
heycam: I agree with Dirk's proposal. It matches what I was thinking of.
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20:22:43 [heycam]
I prefer Dirk's suggestion because if you don't use transform in style="" or in CSS style sheets, then the SVG DOM for transform works the same as it always has.
20:23:01 [cabanier]
heycam: it also works with the animval
20:23:41 [cabanier]
heycam: by having animval reflect the computed style, it will looks the same as before
20:24:23 [cabanier]
cyril: patrick's proposal has the same proplem
20:24:38 [cabanier]
heycam: yes, we would want a consistent solution
20:25:41 [cabanier]
ed: what does 'works with animval' mean?
20:25:45 [cyril]
s/patrick's proposal has the same proplem/does patrick's proposal to turn some attributes into properties has the same problem ? If so, is the current solution also applicable?/
20:26:43 [ChrisL]
yes we do
20:26:45 [ed]
issue 12
20:26:53 [cabanier]
krit: can we do 3d transform on SVG as well?
20:27:09 [cabanier]
krit: we would need new interfaces for perspective, etc
20:27:17 [ChrisL]
yes, we would
20:27:49 [cabanier]
krit: do we want to extend SVG interfaces to access 3d transforms?
20:27:53 [heycam]
s/on SVG as well/on SVGTransformList/
20:28:29 [cabanier]
krit: we would have to specify everything that is in CSS, in SVG as well
20:28:57 [cabanier]
heycam: I don't think it's that much work, since it pretty simple
20:29:25 [cabanier]
heycam: otherwise we would have to specify what happens when you read out the transformlist
20:30:04 [cabanier]
krit: I would specify that it's unresolvable. SVG DOM would just return undefined
20:30:25 [cabanier]
krit: you would access everything with CSS and this would make things backward compatible
20:30:50 [cabanier]
heycam: I guess we'll have similar issue with other issues
20:31:02 [cabanier]
heycam: ie by using 'calc' in css
20:31:12 [cabanier]
krit: yes, it is a general issue
20:31:49 [cabanier]
krit: I would stop developing SVG DOM for these use cases
20:32:13 [cabanier]
s/stop developing/not develop
20:32:46 [cabanier]
heycam: yes, maybe we'll use the CSSOM to manipulate
20:33:42 [cabanier]
heycam: if we improve the SVG DOM, should we target transform or should we do that in CSS?
20:33:51 [cabanier]
krit: just do it in CSS
20:34:33 [cabanier]
heycam: ie accessing width/height of a rectangle
20:36:30 [cabanier]
krit: if you have SVG length, you can drop the 'px' but not in CSS
20:36:48 [cabanier]
krit: I think the group should work on allowing that in CSS
20:36:51 [glenn]
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20:37:12 [cabanier]
heycam: in CSS you can using units, while in SVG you can't
20:37:32 [cabanier]
heycam: ie you can use '%' in CSS while in SVG you can't
20:38:00 [cabanier]
krit: maybe we should resolve % to pixel in SVG
20:38:09 [cabanier]
heycam: that would be possible
20:38:57 [cabanier]
heycam: I'm OK with returning unknown type
20:39:11 [cabanier]
ed: in practice, people will use the CSSOM
20:39:43 [cabanier]
ed: since if you use the CSS feature, you will want to use that interface anyway
20:39:54 [cabanier]
ed: we should try to make the CSSOM as good as possible
20:40:00 [cabanier]
krit: yes
20:40:19 [cabanier]
krit: I would like to have the same features in CSSOM that we have in SVG now
20:40:57 [cabanier]
krit: make the CCSS interface such as transformlist live
20:41:26 [cabanier]
heycam: does the combined transforms spec define any CSSOM interfaces?
20:41:54 [cabanier]
krit: we have not specified transformlist but have css matrix
20:42:10 [cabanier]
heycam: so if you use getcomputedstyle you will get them back?
20:43:25 [cabanier]
krit: changes to cssmatrix are reflected in css transform as well.
20:43:54 [cabanier]
krit: css transforms are more complicated than other css features
20:44:14 [cabanier]
heycam: this is more a question for the CSS people
20:44:28 [cabanier]
chrisl: it's not clear who is editing that.
20:44:39 [cabanier]
heycam: glenn is supposed to be editing that
20:46:56 [cabanier]
resolution: for issue 11 and 12, we will accept the recommended solutions (see:
20:48:29 [cabanier]
topic: OpenType and SVG
20:48:55 [cabanier]
krit: the problem are not willing to implement SVG fonts
20:49:13 [cabanier]
chrisl: I proposed that we implement only WOFF
20:49:40 [cabanier]
chrisl: it's very clear that mozilla and microsoft are not going to implement this
20:50:33 [cabanier]
chrisl: there is a proposal to add SVG fonts to OpenType
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20:50:47 [cabanier]
chrisl: my feeling is that is longer term than SVG2
20:51:07 [cabanier]
heycam: we have an intern working on this.
20:51:41 [cabanier]
heycam: SVG glyphs inside OpenType
20:52:01 [cabanier]
chrisl: there is no consensus how this format will look like
20:52:07 [krit]
20:52:12 [cabanier]
heycam: let me give you a link to the bug
20:52:16 [heycam]
20:52:36 [cabanier]
heycam: I have never seen that page before
20:52:44 [cabanier]
chrisl: me neither
20:53:14 [cabanier]
heycam: this looks more like brainstorming
20:53:44 [cabanier]
chrisl: this page should be updated with pointers to mailing lists, etc
20:54:16 [cabanier]
heycam: the idea for the intern is to see how this works and report back
20:54:50 [cabanier]
chrisl: I'm worried that the message will be that we already figured it out
20:55:08 [cabanier]
chrisl: experimentation is great though. I'm very pleased
20:55:49 [cabanier]
chrisl: sairus from Adobe is working on this
20:56:19 [cabanier]
cabanier: I believe Sairus has a proposal. I can ping him.
20:56:59 [heycam]
20:57:04 [cabanier]
dirk: we need to find a way to have a public discussion ie by a mailing list
20:57:37 [cabanier]
chrisl: I started the community group because people were emailing many groups
20:57:51 [heycam]
20:57:52 [cabanier]
chrisl: have a central location that is archived is important
20:59:01 [cabanier]
chrisl: woff encapsulates OpenType
20:59:13 [cabanier]
chrisl: CSS3 also mandates OT
20:59:30 [cabanier]
chrisl: we are also going that way
21:00:15 [ChrisL]
so if opentype adds this, svg will use it. discussion should be on the community group
21:00:34 [cabanier]
resolution: any discussion should happen on the SVG OpenType group (
21:01:56 [Zakim]
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21:02:44 [cabanier]
topic: SVG2 Requirements
21:02:45 [ed]
21:03:07 [cabanier]
cyril: I will edit the wiki page
21:03:44 [cyril]
21:03:56 [Zakim]
21:04:45 [Zakim]
21:05:00 [cabanier]
21:05:27 [cabanier]
chrisl: it's a single element gradient
21:05:31 [cyril]
zakim, pointer
21:05:31 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'pointer', cyril
21:05:38 [cyril]
rrsagent, pointer
21:05:38 [RRSAgent]
21:05:44 [Zakim]
21:06:21 [cabanier]
chrisl: it's for paint servers, that are pointed to by a url
21:06:28 [Zakim]
21:06:38 [Zakim]
21:06:52 [cabanier]
krit: can't this be done with CSS right now?
21:06:54 [plinss]
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21:06:59 [ed]
<solidColor id="solidMaroon" solid-color="maroon" solid-opacity="0.7"/> <rect fill="url(#solidMaroon)" .../>
21:07:12 [cabanier]
chrisl: not sure. by having the same class and style rule
21:08:21 [cabanier]
chris: css animation would select a class, right?
21:08:25 [cabanier]
krit: yes
21:09:18 [cabanier]
krit: if you use a selector that is less specific, does the animation not happen?
21:09:43 [cabanier]
krit: regardless of using this in CSS, people today are working around this with gradients.
21:10:04 [cabanier]
tav: inkscape has a horrible patch to do this with a one stop gradient
21:10:45 [cabanier]
chrisl: a solid color is really what you want to do. SVG 1.1 had it in there. It seems like a solid feature
21:11:43 [ChrisL]
and 1.2T had it too
21:11:47 [cabanier]
tav: inkscape would have a much simpler solution if it was in there
21:11:48 [ChrisL]
and inkscape needs it
21:12:19 [cabanier]
cyril: could inkscape do it will CSS classes?
21:12:22 [ed]
so essentially it transforms <linearGradient><stop stop-color="foobar"/></linearGradient> into <solidColor solid-color="foobar"/>...
21:12:28 [cabanier]
tav: inkscape doesn't do classes
21:13:04 [heycam]
I think it wouldn't work with CSS, since you either need to have various different style rules for different properties, so you lose the ability to change the colour in a single place.
21:13:09 [cyril]
s/do it will/define a color palette with/
21:13:23 [heycam]
s/wouldn't work with CSS/you couldn't just do this with CSS/
21:14:13 [cabanier]
heycam: CSS variables seems to be solving the same use case
21:14:27 [cabanier]
chrisl: having named colors
21:14:53 [cabanier]
is one of the primary reason for them. This is a very useful feature.
21:15:17 [ChrisL]
it regularises the syntax so that you can use a paint server for solid as well as radient and pattern fills.
21:15:29 [cabanier]
heycam: CSS variables is still far away but it would be good to avoid the same feature twice
21:15:32 [ChrisL]
also, you can animate the url to go from a solid to a gradient ad back
21:15:38 [ChrisL]
its very flexible
21:15:59 [cabanier]
ed: this is very simple to implement. It doesn't add much code
21:16:53 [cabanier]
resolution: we will add solid-color element to SVG2
21:17:25 [ed]
21:17:35 [cabanier]
s/solid-color/solid-color and solid-opacity property
21:18:41 [cabanier]
21:19:09 [cyril]
21:19:29 [cabanier]
21:19:35 [cabanier]
chrisl: we should drop it
21:19:42 [cabanier]
everyone: agreed
21:19:50 [cabanier]
resolution: drop XML:id
21:20:17 [cabanier]
topic: role, rel, rev, about, content, datatype, property, resource, typeof
21:20:30 [cabanier]
chrisl: hasn't seen much use but it is used in HTML
21:20:50 [cabanier]
heycam: doesn't exactly match with what HTML5 has since they start with item
21:21:31 [cabanier]
krit: I think it's great but should match HTML5
21:21:54 [cabanier]
heycam: HTML5 doesn't require RDFA and microdata
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21:22:24 [ChrisL]
s/hasn't seen much use/was added to support RDFa and microdate, but hasn't seen much use/
21:22:58 [cabanier]
heycam: microdata came with a set of DOM interfaces that we want to support
21:23:03 [cabanier]
chrisl: yes
21:23:52 [cabanier]
heycam: scannig the HTML5 spec, I don't see where RDFA is required.
21:24:04 [cabanier]
heycam: maybe there is a seperate spec
21:24:19 [cabanier]
21:24:45 [cabanier]
chrisl: RDFlite is I believe
21:25:04 [cabanier]
chrisl: it could be that the spec hasn't been updated
21:25:33 [cabanier]
resolution: for RDFa and microdata follow what HTML does
21:26:10 [cabanier]
21:27:03 [ed]
this depends on <textArea>
21:27:10 [cabanier]
chrisl: this is moot since we're following CSS
21:27:23 [cabanier]
chrisl: not textarea
21:27:30 [ChrisL]
its tied to f the 'textArea' element. which we are not using
21:27:39 [cabanier]
resolution: we won't display-align since we won't have textarea
21:28:56 [cabanier]
topic: buffered rendering
21:29:09 [cabanier]
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21:29:40 [cabanier]
ed: it's a hint to cache as much as possible
21:29:48 [cabanier]
ed: it's not a requirement
21:30:05 [cabanier]
cabanier: this is very useful
21:30:12 [cabanier]
krit: I'm fine with it
21:30:24 [cabanier]
heycam: I'm concerned about these hints
21:30:38 [cabanier]
heycam: like filter-region
21:30:50 [cabanier]
ed: I agree
21:32:07 [ed]
s/agree/share your concern about misuse of this property, but it's sometimes needed for specific devices/scenarios/
21:33:29 [cabanier]
resolution: after implementor feedback, we agree that buffer rendering hints are needed
21:34:47 [cabanier]
heycam: with CSS transform, you can get pixelated buffers
21:35:13 [cabanier]
heycam: we should have a requirement that they should rerender
21:36:10 [heycam]
s/we should/would we have/
21:36:19 [heycam]
s/have have/have/
21:36:23 [cabanier]
ed: in most cases you don't get pixels
21:36:36 [cabanier]
21:37:03 [Zakim]
21:37:58 [Zakim]
21:38:00 [Zakim]
21:38:00 [Zakim]
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21:38:13 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
21:38:13 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.206.734.aaaa, ed, cabanier, heycam, krit, cyril, Tav, ChrisL, [Microsoft]
21:38:24 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:38:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
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21:39:25 [Zakim]
21:39:26 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM has ended
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Attendees were +1.206.734.aaaa, ed, cabanier, heycam, krit, cyril, Tav, ChrisL, [Microsoft]
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21:47:33 [cyril]
118/180 requirements
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