15:00:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
15:00:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/24-sparql-irc
15:00:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:00:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
15:00:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
15:00:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start now
15:00:20 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
15:00:21 <trackbot> Date: 24 January 2012
15:00:27 <swh> Zakim, who's on the call?
15:00:27 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has not yet started, swh
15:00:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, cbuilara, swh, MacTed, AndyS, bglimm, SteveH, iv_an_ru, LeeF, Andrei, kasei, trackbot, pgearon, NickH, ya, ericP, sandro
15:00:31 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL
15:00:31 <Zakim> ok, LeeF, I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM already started
15:00:35 <Zakim> +??P13
15:00:38 <swh> Zakim, who's on the call?
15:00:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P12, ??P13
15:00:39 <AndyS> zakim, ??P13 is me
15:00:41 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:00:45 <swh> Zakim, ??P12 is me
15:00:47 <Zakim> +swh; got it
15:00:49 <Zakim> +??P19
15:00:52 <LeeF> phone is frozen
15:00:54 <LeeF> nice
15:00:55 <bglimm> Zakim, ??P19 is me
15:00:57 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
15:00:59 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
15:00:59 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
15:01:02 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql
15:01:03 <Zakim> +kasei
15:01:21 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
15:01:29 <LeeF> zakkim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me
15:01:32 <LeeF> zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me
15:01:35 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
15:01:55 <Zakim> +??P29
15:02:01 <cbuilara> zakim, ??P29 is me
15:02:07 <Zakim> +cbuilara; got it
15:02:09 <Zakim> +MattPerry
15:02:25 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see swh, AndyS, bglimm (muted), kasei, LeeF, cbuilara, MattPerry
15:02:58 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
15:03:09 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS
15:03:13 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
15:03:17 <AndyS> scribe: Andy Seaborne
15:03:21 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
15:03:41 <LeeF> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JanMar/0075.html
15:03:45 <Zakim> + +1.540.841.aaaa
15:03:47 <LeeF> topic: Admin
15:04:10 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve last week's minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2012-01-17
15:04:17 <pgearon> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:04:17 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it
15:04:27 <LeeF> Regrets: Axel, Olivier
15:04:39 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
15:04:40 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve last week's minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2012-01-17
15:04:49 <chimezie> Zakim, what is the passcode?
15:04:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), chimezie
15:04:53 <LeeF> Next meeting is on 1/31 
15:05:28 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aabb
15:05:38 <chimezie> Zakim +1.216.368.aabb is me
15:05:51 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
15:05:51 <Zakim> sorry, chimezie, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:05:58 <LeeF> Lee: RDF WG?
15:06:05 <LeeF> AndyS: pretty quiet, discussing graph use cases
15:06:11 <LeeF> ...small point around turtle and hex binary
15:06:19 <chimezie> Zakim, 1.216.368.aabb is me
15:06:19 <Zakim> sorry, chimezie, I do not recognize a party named '1.216.368.aabb'
15:06:22 <LeeF> ...about whitespace, but I don't think there will be progress on that
15:06:50 <AndyS> topic: tests
15:07:10 <LeeF> implementation report is here: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/implementations/
15:08:07 <chimezie> Zakim, +1.216.368.aabb is me
15:08:07 <Zakim> +chimezie; got it
15:08:12 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
15:08:12 <Zakim> chimezie should now be muted
15:08:40 <AndyS> kasei:chnages Update syntax shortcuts, qname escapes, a few other things
15:08:50 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:08:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see swh, AndyS, bglimm, kasei, LeeF, cbuilara, MattPerry, pgearon, chimezie (muted)
15:08:53 <AndyS> ... last run Oct 2011.
15:09:03 <AndyS> ... despite CVS timestamp.
15:09:20 <chimezie> I can do all of the above but just for some entailment tests
15:09:20 <AndyS> Leef: anyone else in a position to run the test suite?
15:09:24 <pgearon> not me at all
15:09:35 <MattPerry> We use ARQ, so our results will basically be the same
15:09:43 <bglimm> Hopefully I can run the tests in a few weeks (entailment tests mainly though)
15:10:30 <AndyS> LeeF:want to batch approve all tests in two impls.
15:11:19 <bglimm> Michael Schneider wanted to implement ent. regimes. I haven't talked to him recently to see where he stands
15:11:24 <AndyS> AndyS: Reach out to other implementations.
15:11:45 <AndyS> LeeF: Will go outbound soon so we get feedback on mechanisms ASAP.
15:12:05 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to post about test suite on public-sparql-dev and -comments list and reach out to implementors
15:12:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-579 - Post about test suite on public-sparql-dev and -comments list and reach out to implementors [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2012-01-31].
15:12:29 <AndyS> LeeF: Query first
15:13:33 <AndyS> Mechanism -- approve all but specific tests based on last report.
15:14:08 <LeeF> agg-err-{01,02}
15:16:29 <AndyS> ARQ runs the agg tests and functions all OK (from CVS)
15:19:16 <AndyS> ARQ runs the update silent test all successesfully
15:19:35 <LeeF> close ACTION-575
15:19:35 <trackbot> ACTION-575 Propose tests for ADD, MOVE, and COPY closed
15:19:50 <AndyS> LeeF: newer tests from Matt.  ARQ reports running them OK.  
15:19:56 <LeeF> close ACTION-574
15:19:56 <trackbot> ACTION-574 Propose tests for positive use of EXISTS closed
15:20:15 <AndyS> .. EXISTS tests look OK  (2 impls pass the tests)
15:21:16 <LeeF> ACTION: Greg to re-run the implementation report and check in an updated one
15:21:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-580 - Re-run the implementation report and check in an updated one [on Gregory Williams - due 2012-01-31].
15:22:59 <kasei> q+
15:23:02 <LeeF> ack kasei
15:23:02 <AndyS> LeeF: For CR - snapshot place and fixed report place
15:24:55 <AndyS> kasei: SHA384 still there
15:25:00 <AndyS> AndyS: I'll remove them.
15:25:05 <AndyS> topic: protocol
15:26:23 <AndyS> LeeF: Easier to start again - need an online service that will poke a server with the protocol.
15:26:33 <AndyS> ... service description testing ...
15:27:05 <AndyS> kasei: Online form, for a URL, get back a report of SD conformance 9(3 tests currently)
15:27:11 <kasei> http://kasei.us/2009/09/sparql/sdvalidator.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmyrdf.us%2Fsparql11&submit=Submit
15:27:30 <AndyS> ... conneg -> EARl if RDF.
15:28:38 <AndyS> LeeF: coverage page says we will have 2+ impls. We may need to encourage people to put up SD's
15:29:50 <AndyS> ... mildly related ... anyone at SemTech presenting SPARQL 1.1?
15:30:18 <AndyS> LeeF: want similar set up for protocol - something that poke a service.
15:30:38 <AndyS> .. drive by the examples in the protocol doc.
15:30:53 <AndyS> ... one new thing - query as application/sparql-query
15:31:50 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to work changes to protocol TR publication back into editor's draft
15:31:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-581 - Work changes to protocol TR publication back into editor's draft [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2012-01-31].
15:32:35 <AndyS> LeeF: Overall next week, approve all that is green x2 impls
15:33:04 <LeeF> ACTION-580?
15:33:04 <trackbot> ACTION-580 -- Gregory Williams to re-run the implementation report and check in an updated one -- due 2012-01-31 -- OPEN
15:33:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/580
15:33:11 <AndyS> Topic: TSV/CSV formats
15:35:16 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/sparql-charter
15:36:40 <AndyS> LeeF: Concern is that it is two different formats.
15:37:07 <AndyS> ... CSV is string forms, TSV is full Turtle terms.
15:37:10 <swh> q+
15:37:32 <AndyS> ... found this strange - not the way I'd do it.
15:37:57 <AndyS> ... but not an issue to hold up over.  Still want some discussion on it though.
15:38:05 <LeeF> ack swh
15:39:13 <AndyS> swh: Understand the concern; CSV in excel often does not want Turtle details (experience); TSV is for programs.  No user feedback againt it.
15:39:17 <AndyS> q+
15:39:22 <LeeF> ack Andrei
15:39:25 <LeeF> ack AndyS
15:39:37 <swh> AndyS: experience is that TSV is quite popular
15:39:46 <swh> … people use CSV but a little bit
15:39:53 <swh> … and it's very fast to produce
15:40:10 <swh> … get the why does ntriples parse faster than turtle effect
15:40:18 <swh> … don't see much use of CSV
15:40:31 <swh> … people dont see it in the wild as being different formats, lots of confusion
15:40:40 <swh> … there's a lot of confusion in the wild
15:41:09 <AndyS> LeeF: can  be explained 
15:41:35 <swh> AndyS: which ones does Anzo use
15:41:36 <AndyS> ... Anzo does the string form (CSV)
15:42:39 <kasei> I'm in agreement with Lee. Seems weird, but think it can be explained.
15:43:23 <AndyS> LeeF: Consensus on two formats - issue of confusion recognized as possible.
15:44:03 <AndyS> AndyS: Needs more examples
15:44:37 <AndyS> LeeF: Seems better to make it REC track.
15:44:58 <AndyS> ... next step - complete doc and then move forward through process.
15:45:36 <AndyS> Topic: AOB
15:45:44 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
15:45:44 <Zakim> chimezie should no longer be muted
15:46:00 <AndyS> LeeF: Chime - anything about graph store?
15:46:00 <kasei> q+ to ask about ACTION-573 (aggregate errors)
15:46:13 <AndyS> chime: next time please
15:46:23 <LeeF> ack kasei
15:46:23 <Zakim> kasei, you wanted to ask about ACTION-573 (aggregate errors)
15:47:02 <AndyS> kasei: need more agg-error tests?
15:47:06 <LeeF> close ACTION-573
15:47:06 <trackbot> ACTION-573 Propose tests for aggregate evaluation errors closed
15:47:07 <AndyS> LeeF: No - it's done.
15:47:48 <AndyS> ADJOURNED
15:47:50 <Zakim> -swh
15:47:52 <Zakim> -chimezie
15:47:53 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:47:54 <AndyS> tarck, make logs public
15:47:55 <MattPerry> bye
15:47:57 <bglimm> bye
15:48:02 <AndyS> trackbot, make logs public
15:48:02 <trackbot> Sorry, AndyS, I don't understand 'trackbot, make logs public'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
15:48:04 <Zakim> -pgearon
15:48:06 <Zakim> -MattPerry
15:48:06 <Zakim> -bglimm
15:48:11 <AndyS> rrsagent, make logs public
15:48:12 <Zakim> -cbuilara
15:48:13 <LeeF> ACTION-574?
15:48:13 <trackbot> ACTION-574 -- Gregory Williams to propose tests for positive use of EXISTS -- due 2012-01-24 -- CLOSED
15:48:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/574
15:48:18 <LeeF> ACTION-546?
15:48:18 <trackbot> ACTION-546 -- Gregory Williams to review query 2nd LC as soon as it's ready -- due 2011-11-15 -- OPEN
15:48:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/546
15:48:23 <LeeF> close ACTION-546
15:48:23 <trackbot> ACTION-546 Review query 2nd LC as soon as it's ready closed
15:48:32 <Zakim> -kasei
15:48:37 <kasei> LeeF, I thought you had something for me at the end of the call?
15:48:44 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:48:44 <kasei> protocol or SD related?
15:48:45 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:48:46 <Zakim> Attendees were AndyS, swh, bglimm, kasei, LeeF, cbuilara, MattPerry, +1.540.841.aaaa, pgearon, chimezie
15:57:22 <kasei> AndyS, you pass the new COPY tests?
15:58:49 <LeeF> what did I have for you?
15:59:06 <kasei> I don't think the error condition text in the Update spec say enough to imply the results for copy05.
15:59:19 <kasei> LeeF, I'm not sure. I just thought you said you were going to stick around to discuss something.
16:00:51 <kasei> Hrm...
16:01:33 <kasei> Update says "Each request SHOULD be treated atomically by a SPARQL 1.1 Update service" but then the definition says "An Update Operation Op is an atomic operation..."
16:01:52 <kasei> e.g. the SHOULD-hedge isn't present in the actual definition.
16:02:34 <kasei> which is a big problem for systems that don't have support for atomic transactions in the underlying graphstore.
16:07:40 <LeeF> hang on, kasei
16:07:46 <LeeF> the first thing you quoted is talking about REQUESTS
16:07:51 <LeeF> the second thing is talking about OPERATIONS
16:07:55 <LeeF> big difference, right?
16:08:15 <kasei> ah, maybe
16:08:29 <Andrei> Andrei has joined #sparql
16:08:30 <kasei> in that case, the problem is just with the new test cases
16:08:36 <LeeF> don't know what the impact is for copy05 :)
16:09:00 <kasei> wait
16:09:31 <kasei> how does the request/operation distinction affect the shortcut syntaxes for things like COPY? Is COPY one operation, or two?
16:10:03 <kasei> it says it's "equivalent to" a syntax form with two operations.
16:10:58 <LeeF> very interesting question
16:11:06 <kasei> and since the first operation is a DROP, whether it's atomic or not (when a problem is encountered during the INSERT) is a big deal.
16:11:16 <LeeF> I'm going to hesitate to say "i told you so" about prematuring adding shortcuts, but........ ;-)
16:11:27 <LeeF> definitely warrants an email to the group
16:11:46 <kasei> don't point that at me! I don't think I was promoting these shortcuts :\
16:11:59 <kasei> yeah, i'll write it up and send to the group.
16:13:05 <kasei> but I may be the most affected by this issue. Not sure how many systems are non-transactional under the hood.
16:13:14 <LeeF> no, you weren't, it was a generic "you" :-)
16:13:23 <kasei> heh
16:14:36 <Andrei> Andrei has joined #sparql
16:24:55 <AndyS> Yes - ARQ passes the COPY tests.
16:27:18 <AndyS> Not clear why that text is relevant - test is sequential.  requests are atomic .. not operations ... otherwise madness occurs.
16:29:46 <kasei> AndyS, so you're saying COPY is two operations, not one?
16:30:03 <kasei> because it's referred to as "the COPY operation".
16:30:21 <kasei> a bigger problem is that it isn't treated the same as its "equivalent" expansion.
16:30:29 <AndyS> I'm saying it makes no difference although for completely different reasons it had better be one.
16:30:46 <AndyS> request are atomic, not operations.
16:31:08 <kasei> no, the doc explicitly says the reverse. operations are atomic. requests are RECOMMENDED to be atomic.
16:31:26 <Andrei> Andrei has joined #sparql
16:32:46 <kasei> given the current wording, I think whether the shortcuts are treated as one or multiple operations makes a very big difference.
16:32:54 <AndyS> Needs fixing.  But I think the intention is that defn atmic request is saying these are the building blocks.  Different sense of "atomic"
16:33:36 <kasei> ok, but the text about atomic requests is only a SHOULD.
16:33:46 <kasei> i'm going to have big problems if it's a MUST.
16:40:19 <AndyS> ARQ can't do MUST for all storages.  TDB is now transaction safe; memory storage does pseudo-transactions by locking which is indistinguishable.  Failure recovery for in-memory is easy to implement :-)
16:42:33 <kasei> ok. for the stores that aren't transaction safe, though, isn't this issue relevant?
18:04:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #sparql
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19:25:37 <AndyS> kasei, EARL results for ARQ: http://people.apache.org/~andy/ARQ-earl-2012-01-24.ttl  CSV checking manual, doign bNode isomorphism checking just for CSV is a  not a reasonable use of time.
19:26:41 <AndyS> kasei, re transactions, if not transaction safe, and if atomic, no issue - it's the request that needs to be made exclusive.  i.e. the HTTP request. 
19:50:27 <Andrei> Andrei has joined #sparql
19:55:36 <kasei> AndyS: what I'm suggesting is that a multi-op request could run some of the ops, and fail in the middle of the reqest, and leave the graphstore in a state that isn't the requests expected pre- or post- state.
19:56:37 <AndyS> I see that ... but you said it wasn't transactional ... so it may happen even in a single operation not being truely atomic.
20:00:50 <kasei> ah, sure. I was considering that a separate issue.
20:01:14 <kasei> since you could have a system where ops actually are atomic, but because of these multi-op requests, you still get the inconsistent state.
20:01:23 <kasei> also, that new EARL looks good, thanks.
20:05:06 <kasei> generating a new implementations report now...
20:47:21 <kasei> new implementations report checked in: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/implementations/
21:15:04 <AndyS> kasei - cool ... and good night.
21:35:00 <Andrei> Andrei has joined #sparql
21:38:03 <kasei> is there an appropriate property to relate an endpoint URI with the software that sits behind it?
21:38:07 <kasei> <http://dbpedia.org/sparql> ex:??? <url-for-virtuoso>
22:00:31 <Andrei> Andrei has joined #sparql
22:37:44 <pgearon> pgearon has joined #sparql
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23:08:34 <Andrei> Andrei has joined #sparql