IRC log of ua on 2012-01-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:43:44 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:43:44 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-ua-irc
17:43:46 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:43:46 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:43:48 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:43:48 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
17:43:49 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:43:49 [trackbot]
Date: 12 January 2012
17:50:46 [kford]
agenda+ call on Friday
17:50:47 [kford]
agenda+ Keyboard definition
17:50:49 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0077.html
17:50:50 [kford]
agenda+ review proposals
17:51:05 [kford]
Regrets: Jim
17:51:13 [kford]
Chair: Kelly_Ford
17:51:18 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:51:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-ua-minutes.html kford
17:59:42 [kford]
zakim, code?
17:59:42 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), kford
17:59:48 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:59:55 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:00:02 [kford]
zakim, microosft is kford
18:00:02 [Zakim]
sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named 'microosft'
18:00:08 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:00:09 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
18:00:10 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
18:00:14 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:00:28 [Jan]
zakim, code?
18:00:28 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
18:00:47 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
18:01:55 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
18:01:55 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:02:04 [kford]
agenda+ Still needs writing from Jim - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0011.html
18:02:10 [Zakim]
+Mark
18:02:12 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:02:49 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
18:02:50 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:02:54 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:02:54 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:02:56 [Zakim]
1. call on Friday [from kford]
18:02:58 [Zakim]
2. Keyboard definition [from kford]
18:03:00 [Zakim]
3. review proposals [from kford]
18:03:01 [Zakim]
4. Still needs writing from Jim - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0011.html [from kford]
18:03:11 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
18:04:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.562.256.aaaa
18:04:15 [Zakim]
+??P9
18:04:40 [jeanne]
aaaa is really Wayne
18:04:43 [sharper]
zakim, ??P9 is sharper
18:04:43 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:04:51 [jeanne]
zakim, aaaa is really Wayne
18:04:51 [Zakim]
+Wayne; got it
18:04:58 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:04:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kford, Jeanne, Jan, Mark, Kim_Patch, Greg_Lowney, Wayne, sharper
18:05:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see sharper, Greg, Jan, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, jeanne, trackbot
18:05:18 [sharper]
present+ Harper_Simon
18:05:50 [Wayne]
Wayne has joined #ua
18:06:34 [kford]
Scribe: wayne
18:06:47 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
18:06:47 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "call on Friday" taken up [from kford]
18:07:44 [Wayne]
Item Scheduling Longer Calls:
18:09:04 [Wayne]
Jeanne: Meeting 1-3pm EDT
18:09:15 [jeanne]
attending
18:09:20 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
18:09:21 [Greg]
attending
18:09:25 [Wayne]
wayne - not there
18:09:28 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
18:09:28 [Zakim]
agendum 1, call on Friday, closed
18:09:29 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:09:30 [sharper]
SH: not attending
18:09:31 [Zakim]
2. Keyboard definition [from kford]
18:09:33 [mhakkinen]
attending 1-2, 3-4
18:09:52 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:09:53 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:09:55 [Zakim]
2. Keyboard definition [from kford]
18:09:56 [Zakim]
3. review proposals [from kford]
18:09:57 [Zakim]
4. Still needs writing from Jim - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0011.html [from kford]
18:10:06 [kford]
zakim, take up item 4
18:10:06 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Still needs writing from Jim - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0011.html" taken up [from kford]
18:10:29 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:11:19 [kford]
zakim, close item 4
18:11:19 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Still needs writing from Jim - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JanMar/0011.html, closed
18:11:21 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:11:22 [Zakim]
2. Keyboard definition [from kford]
18:11:47 [kford]
kford, Jim sent a list of what still needs writing. Agenda 4 has a liink to those items.
18:11:54 [kford]
zakim, take up item 2
18:11:54 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Keyboard definition" taken up [from kford]
18:13:06 [Wayne]
Item: Keyboard means device independent equivalent
18:13:53 [Jan]
q+ to suggest "Keyboard interfaces are programmatic services provided by many platforms that allow operation in a device independent manner. A keyboard interface can allow keystroke input even if particular devices do not contain a conventional keyboard (e.g., a touchscreen-controlled device can have a keyboard interface built into its operating system to support onscreen keyboards as well...
18:13:55 [Jan]
...as external keyboards that may be connected). Note: Keyboard-operated mouse emulators, such as MouseKeys, do not qualify as operation through a keyboard interface because these emulators use pointing device interfaces, not keyboard interfaces."
18:14:04 [kford]
kford: want to close down on our definition of keyboard.
18:14:13 [Wayne]
Greg: Use keyboard interface or Keyboard or Keyboard emulator
18:16:19 [Wayne]
Jan - Described Keyboard Interface as descrbed above, ATAG Glossary
18:18:51 [KimPatch]
The Modality Independence Principal
18:18:52 [KimPatch]
Users interacting with a web browser may do so using one or more input methods including keyboard, mouse, speech, touch, and gesture. It’s critical that each user be free to use whatever input method or combination of methods works best for a given situation. Therefore every potential user interaction must be accessible via modality independent controls that any input technology can access.
18:18:54 [KimPatch]
For instance, if a user can’t use or doesn’t have access to a mouse, but can use and access a keyboard, the keyboard can call a modality independent control to activate an OnMouseOver event.
18:18:58 [sharper]
these are keyboard scan codes
18:19:18 [Wayne]
Wayne = Character interface might be more apropriate
18:19:51 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20111227/#intro-modality-independence
18:21:31 [Wayne]
Kim - modality independent control… perhaps here
18:22:50 [Wayne]
Greg - later in agenda: another guideline on other input devices to address modality independence
18:23:49 [Greg]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0077.html
18:27:05 [kford]
action: JS to update UAAG glossary with ATAG definition of keyboard interface
18:27:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-702 - Update UAAG glossary with ATAG definition of keyboard interface [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-01-19].
18:27:30 [Wayne]
Kelly: Editorial replace key board with keyboard interface.. try that plan
18:28:07 [kford]
Action: KFord and others to review document for keyboard term and ensure it can be modified slightly to say keyboard interface and match with glossary definition.
18:28:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-703 - And others to review document for keyboard term and ensure it can be modified slightly to say keyboard interface and match with glossary definition. [on Kelly Ford - due 2012-01-19].
18:28:24 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:28:24 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
18:28:26 [Zakim]
2. Keyboard definition [from kford]
18:28:27 [Zakim]
3. review proposals [from kford]
18:28:37 [kford]
zakim, close item 2
18:28:37 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, kford
18:28:55 [jeanne]
q?
18:28:59 [Jan]
ack Jan
18:28:59 [Zakim]
Jan, you wanted to suggest "Keyboard interfaces are programmatic services provided by many platforms that allow operation in a device independent manner. A keyboard interface can
18:29:13 [Zakim]
... allow keystroke input even if particular devices do not contain a conventional keyboard (e.g., a touchscreen-controlled device can have a keyboard interface built into its
18:29:13 [kford]
qZAKIM, CLOSE ITEM 2
18:29:16 [Zakim]
... operating system to support onscreen keyboards as well...
18:29:28 [kford]
ZAKIM, CLOSE ITEM 2
18:29:28 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Keyboard definition, closed
18:29:29 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:29:30 [Zakim]
3. review proposals [from kford]
18:29:37 [kford]
ZAKIM, TAKE UP ITEM 3
18:29:37 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "review proposals" taken up [from kford]
18:30:02 [kford]
GL's proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0077.html
18:30:03 [mhakkinen]
dropping off the call, will stay on IRC
18:30:10 [Zakim]
-Mark
18:30:17 [Wayne]
GL Proposal:
18:33:28 [Wayne]
Kim: On screen keyboard, and trackball -- Cannot enter text with trackbal … is this accessible
18:34:05 [Wayne]
Jan - device turn into keyboard commands
18:35:10 [Wayne]
Jan - have a new part of partial connformance
18:36:15 [Jan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2012JanMar/0001.html
18:36:25 [Jan]
"Statement of Partial ATAG 2.0 Conformance - Platform Limitation (Level A, AA, or AAA)
18:36:27 [Jan]
This conformance option may be selected when an authoring tool is unable to meet one or more success criteria because of intrinsic limitations of the platform (e.g., lacking a platform accessibility service). The (optional) explanation of conformance claim results should explain what platform features are missing."
18:36:28 [Wayne]
A monochrom cannot adjust color
18:38:04 [Greg]
Looks good
18:38:26 [Wayne]
Local phone keyboard that lack navigation
18:40:56 [Wayne]
Greg responting to Kim: If a phone has a nophysical interface, but if you can plug in an emulator then it would work. Should we expect an emulator for the user agend and not the system?
18:43:30 [Wayne]
Kelly: Partial conformance issues. Not a full user agent, but this is how much I can do.
18:44:06 [Wayne]
Jan: You must have accessible interface, but your platform omits some possibility.
18:44:56 [Wayne]
Kelly: The app does not handle the shortcommings of the platform
18:45:34 [Wayne]
Jan: A stripped down browser that is as accessible as the kiosk? can handle.
18:46:50 [Wayne]
Kelly: Do we need another success criteria for this.
18:46:54 [Jan]
Action: JR to propose a type of partial conformance for mobile apps that are actually packaged user agents that display limited types of content
18:46:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-704 - Propose a type of partial conformance for mobile apps that are actually packaged user agents that display limited types of content [on Jan Richards - due 2012-01-19].
18:47:37 [Greg]
Possible guideline about non-keyboard input devices:
18:47:38 [Greg]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0077.html
18:52:52 [Wayne]
Kim - For voice input it is easy to say the word. Are cases where speech users is keyboard emulater.
18:53:24 [Wayne]
Greg - initially did not require textual navigational (key letter etc.)
18:54:11 [Wayne]
Greg - navigation has for modes, but not textual.
18:54:49 [Wayne]
Kim - Reverse mouse. Most people think of one input isn't needed but others need it.
18:54:49 [Greg]
We currently have four of the five basic navigation mechanisms: direct, sequential, search, and structural, but we do not address textual (e.g. typing first characters of an item's text to navigate to it).
19:03:34 [Wayne]
Jan - the sc are different for level analysis.
19:05:03 [Wayne]
Jan - Say what we want to say about what will be an accessible UA.
19:06:09 [Wayne]
Greg: Do you mean remove conditionality?
19:07:41 [Wayne]
Jan: A browser that met UAWG on a fully accessible platform then is is accessible, but it it is not on inferior devices then it is it is conditionally accessible on the inferior device.
19:09:33 [Wayne]
Greg: The reason the conditional is present is to require actions for device options that are not present.
19:09:54 [Wayne]
q1
19:11:49 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:11:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-ua-minutes.html kford
19:12:34 [Wayne]
Jan - Confomance rides over the document.. Seems to be as easy.
19:13:00 [kford]
Present:Kelly, Jan, Greg, Simon, Mark, Wayne, Jeanne, Simon, Kim
19:13:51 [Wayne]
Jan - Is is worth an SC set for non=keyboard devices
19:14:28 [Wayne]
Jan- Should not make every User Agend recognize speech because a microphone is present.
19:14:54 [Greg]
1st issue: is it worth putting in any SC about making functions available through non-keyboard devices?
19:14:56 [Greg]
2nd issue: should we remove the if clauses of these.
19:14:57 [Greg]
3rd issue: ensure that we don't require every UA to add speech recognition just because the system has a microphone.
19:15:43 [Wayne]
Kelly - Would Greg take a second stab.
19:16:28 [kford]
GL and JR to talk and come back with updates on these proposals.
19:16:46 [kford]
zakim, close item 3
19:16:46 [Zakim]
agendum 3, review proposals, closed
19:16:47 [Zakim]
I see nothing remaining on the agenda
19:20:48 [Greg]
Wayne: SC 1.1.1 and 2.5.3 and 2.5.5 overlap because they all deal with outlines.
19:21:27 [Greg]
s/1.1.1/1.11.1/
19:21:40 [Greg]
1.11.1 Access Relationships: The user can access explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content (e.g. show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers). (Level A)
19:21:53 [Greg]
2.5.3 Location in Hierarchy: The user can view the path of nodes leading from the root of any content hierarchy in which the structure and semantics are implied by presentation, as opposed to an explicit logical structure with defined semantics (such as the HTML5 Canvas Element), or as a consequence of decentralized-extensibility (such as the HTML5 item / itemprop microdata elements), and...
19:21:55 [Greg]
...only if the user agent keeps an internal model of the hierarchy that it does not expose via the DOM or some other accessibility mechanism. (Level A) .
19:22:05 [Greg]
2.5.5 Access to Relationships which Aid Navigation: The user can access explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content, and the path of nodes leading from the root of any content hierarchy to that position. (Level AA)
19:26:49 [sharper]
1.11.2 got moved or changed or some such
19:26:50 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:26:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-ua-minutes.html kford
19:27:37 [Zakim]
-Jan
19:27:39 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:27:39 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
19:27:48 [Zakim]
-Wayne
19:27:52 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:27:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-ua-minutes.html kford
19:27:58 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
19:28:02 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
19:28:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kford, Jeanne
19:28:03 [Zakim]
On IRC I see KimPatch, mhakkinen, Greg, Jan, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, jeanne, trackbot
19:28:16 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:28:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-ua-minutes.html kford
19:28:47 [Zakim]
-kford
19:28:53 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
19:28:54 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:28:55 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jeanne, kford, Jan, Mark, Kim_Patch, Greg_Lowney, +1.562.256.aaaa, sharper, Wayne
19:30:37 [kford]
zakim, please part
19:30:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:30:53 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:30:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-ua-minutes.html kford
19:31:05 [kford]
rrsagent, please part
19:31:05 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-ua-actions.rdf :
19:31:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update UAAG glossary with ATAG definition of keyboard interface [1]
19:31:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-ua-irc#T18-27-05
19:31:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KFord and others to review document for keyboard term and ensure it can be modified slightly to say keyboard interface and match with glossary definition. [2]
19:31:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-ua-irc#T18-28-07
19:31:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to propose a type of partial conformance for mobile apps that are actually packaged user agents that display limited types of content [3]
19:31:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-ua-irc#T18-46-54