10:10:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #testing
10:10:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-testing-irc
10:13:44 <dawagner> Just invited you to a hangout
10:16:58 <MikeSmith> dawagner, no, not seeing any invite
10:17:54 <davidburns> davidburns has joined #testing
10:18:24 <dawagner> re-invited you
10:19:06 <dawagner> If no joy, I've encircled you (I'm Daniel Wagner-Hall, dawagner@gmail.com), feel free to invite me to a new one
10:19:53 <davidburns> davidburns has joined #testing
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10:23:50 <dawagner> MikeSmith: Any progress?
10:24:09 <MikeSmith> yup
10:24:13 <MikeSmith> thanks
10:24:16 <MikeSmith> calling in now
10:44:00 <wilhelm> Scribe: wilhelm
10:44:54 <wilhelm> dburns: The current spec consists of a general outline
10:45:12 <wilhelm> ... spec in two parts: the user side, how people would interact with it, and the IDL side and browser impleemntation
10:45:42 <wilhelm> ... One of the things we need to work out is how to reference commands, &c.
10:46:14 <wilhelm> ... We have functional areas of different areas written out. How we turn those areas into functions people can actually use is an open question.
10:46:32 <wilhelm> ... There is also a mapping defined for the JSON wire protocol.
10:46:53 <wilhelm> ... At the moment the spec is very light. Today we should figure out how to fill the missing parts.
10:46:58 <wilhelm> ... How should we interact with IME?
10:47:22 <wilhelm> ... We need to find and document our open issues.
10:48:07 <wilhelm> ... If a new language was to create bindings for WebDriver, what would they need to do? What should be tested? Looking from that perspective may help us write the spec.
10:49:47 <wilhelm> ... How should we actually turn the general requirements into spec form?
10:51:02 <wilhelm> ... However we write the requirements must work for the different languages we support and want to support. The Ruby bidings are quite flat – .NET is not.
10:51:20 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
10:51:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
10:51:29 <andreastt> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/515b648d58ff/webdriver-spec.html
10:51:35 <andreastt> ^-- the spec
10:52:42 <wilhelm> dburns: We try to avoid defining things that are defined somewhere else. Focus, for example, is delegated to HTML5.
10:53:54 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Often what happens after we get quite far along with a spec, is that people come along and ask for use cases and requirements.
10:54:09 <wilhelm> ... There is a cost to documenting that, but it also helps pre-empt problems you can run into later.
10:54:32 <wilhelm> ... There is genuine value in having the use cases and requirements documented.
10:54:42 <wilhelm> ... Someone in the group should commit to write that down.
10:55:19 <wilhelm> ... One example of this is from the XML Speech Incubator Group.
10:55:50 <MikeSmith> example of a use-cases doc: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/htmlspeech/XGR-htmlspeech-20111206/#use-cases
10:58:09 <wilhelm> ... Such a document helps document what the use cases really are, and may help getting other vendors on board.
11:00:18 <wilhelm> andreastt: We need a clear definition of what a window is.
11:00:40 <wilhelm> andreastt: Added complexity on mobile and TVs.
11:03:23 <wilhelm> andreastt: Another issue is how the get command should be working. Currently in OperaDriver we have two ways to figure out if the page has actually loaded.
11:03:41 <wilhelm> ... Some browsers may not be able to fulfill everything, but we should define the ideal.
11:04:15 <wilhelm> daniel: We need to define context boundaries, for example between frames.
11:04:42 <wilhelm> eran: Similar for interaction. What happens if you move the mouse by a certain offset?
11:05:29 <wilhelm> daniel: There are areas where we have complexity in the webdriver implenmentation. We should specify where that complexity should live.
11:06:06 <wilhelm> ... Yes, stuff like atoms, advanced user interactions. Some of that could be provided by WebDriver or by the browser.
11:06:46 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:06:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
11:08:12 <wilhelm> andreastt: A definition of a client and server is missing.
11:08:55 <wilhelm> ... Example: It is possible to be access the scope protocol from JavaScript, in the browser.
11:09:28 <wilhelm> ... We should perphaps note that local and remote can be the same thing.
11:10:08 <wilhelm> eran: Everything related to localStorage, network state on or off, is missing.
11:10:45 <wilhelm> ... This is supported in mobile browsers.
11:10:55 <wilhelm> andreastt: There is a missing section on vendor extensions.
11:11:02 <wilhelm> ... What is the core of WebDriver?
11:11:07 <wilhelm> ... We have Opera-specific stuff.
11:11:48 <wilhelm> ... Taking a screenshot of a limited area of the screen would be nice to get in the core API.
11:11:58 <wilhelm> eran: File upload is missing.
11:12:29 <wilhelm> daniel: Permissions model. If we are going to require the driver to do what it wants with the browser, we should state that specifically.
11:13:18 <wilhelm> eran: We should allow users to check if SSL certificates are valid, self-signed, etc.
11:13:59 <wilhelm> andreastt: In Opera, we have workarounds for browser dialogs - upgrade, installation dialog. Not accessible from JavaScript.
11:14:11 <wilhelm> ... Command-line option to ignore such dialogs.
11:14:38 <wilhelm> (Similar in Firefox)
11:15:22 <wilhelm> daniel: We need to define when click returns as well as get.
11:15:39 <wilhelm> andreastt: What should happen with syntethic click?
11:15:55 <wilhelm> daniel: Every modal behaviour must be defined.
11:17:05 <wilhelm> ... In the talk of sessions, the only operation we define is creating one. The lifetime and destruction of one should probably be defined.
11:18:02 <wilhelm> andreastt: The spec mentions about:blank. This isn't just a plain page. 
11:19:26 <wilhelm> wilhelm: Should the spec be relevant for end-users, or just implementers?
11:20:21 <wilhelm> dburns: Should be defined in idiomatic ways.
11:21:27 <wilhelm> ... Users have been pointed to the tests. Usecases may help in a similar way.
11:22:00 <wilhelm> daniel: Section on modal dialogs is listed as non-normative, despite its MUST statement.
11:22:23 <wilhelm> ... What is handling non-HTML content?
11:22:36 <wilhelm> andreastt: XML, SVG
11:23:47 <wilhelm> dburns: We need to be very careful about how we spec SVG interaction. Different uses of SVG.
11:24:32 <wilhelm> daniel: Where do we stop? How much should we spec?
11:24:57 <wilhelm> wilhelm: From a W3C perspective, I would like to test all W3C specs using these tools. Whether or not that is possible is an open question.
11:25:34 <wilhelm> dburns: Should executescript support VBScript?
11:25:37 <wilhelm> andreastt: (Dart?)
11:27:57 <wilhelm> wilhelm: For many of these technical questions, I suggest deferring to the editors. Make your best judgement. Put it in the spec. Await positive or negative reactions.
11:28:10 <wilhelm> ... You may also delegate to someone else where applicable.
11:28:27 <wilhelm> dburns: How do we handle IME?
11:28:34 <wilhelm> eran: We have an existing API that actually works.
11:30:23 <wilhelm> wilhelm: What about, say, touch events?
11:31:08 <wilhelm> eran: Touch events is the least mature part. How do you define this in a meaningful way? Do we define speed, range of movement?
11:34:41 <wilhelm> daniel: Several sections are based on our current behaviour. Is this always beneficial? (findByClassName, cookies)
11:36:40 <wilhelm> andreastt: Watir allows selecting by link text (<a>foo</a>).
11:37:04 <wilhelm> daniel: bylinktext and gettext behave differently.
11:37:47 <wilhelm> eran: There is duplication between the new and old interaction stuff.
11:38:55 <wilhelm> andreastt: A touchy area, but often requested: Return the active element.
11:44:06 <wilhelm> RRSAgen, make log public
11:44:11 <wilhelm> RRSAgent, make log public
11:45:03 <wilhelm> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:45:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
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12:03:58 <wilhelm> andreastt: Should we have more timeouts than we currently have? If so, how should we specify page load timeouts, etc?
12:04:29 <wilhelm> ... In OperaDriver, we have one timeout for EcmaScript, there's a page load timeout.
12:05:04 <wilhelm> dburns: That's relevant for click and get.
12:05:21 <wilhelm> daniel: Specifying timeouts is part of specifying commands.
12:10:07 <wilhelm> andreastt: In Opera, there is an API for listing available frames.
12:10:33 <wilhelm> dburns: In Firefox, you may list which tabs are available, and which is focused.
12:11:09 <wilhelm> wilhelm: Where do browsers disagree today?
12:11:12 <wilhelm> andreastt: Colours.
12:11:26 <wilhelm> dburns: Some return CSS, some use computed value.
12:11:52 <wilhelm> daniel: They disagree in the JS executing wherever browsers diagree in script engines.
12:12:20 <wilhelm> eran: Does everyone use atoms for get?
12:12:22 <wilhelm> (Yes)
12:12:51 <wilhelm> daniel: For cookies, access levels are different in different browsers. You can't always get expiry date.
12:14:16 <wilhelm> andreastt: We make assertions on whether elements are displayed and enabled, as we need to be able to click disabled elements when testing the browser.
12:14:29 <wilhelm> daniel: isdisplayed is inconsistent.
12:14:41 <wilhelm> daniel: Chrome does some special checks.
12:14:51 <wilhelm> andreastt: We need to add middle-click.
12:15:16 <wilhelm> daniel: The open question of modifier keys on different OSes.
12:15:42 <wilhelm> andreastt: COuld be delegated to a testing framework.
12:16:40 <wilhelm> daniel: Should be delegated to a different layer.
12:16:47 <wilhelm> daniel: getpagesource is inconsistent.
12:17:36 <wilhelm> andreastt: Candidate for removal?
12:17:53 <wilhelm> andreastt: What do we mean by elemen.clear?
12:18:09 <wilhelm> ... JS clear, or click, backspace?
12:18:26 <wilhelm> daniel: Submit is going to be fun to specify.
12:18:32 <wilhelm> ... We should remove it.
12:20:14 <wilhelm> wilhelm: Is there any part of the API or spec that is impossible or unreasonably difficult for one browser to support?
12:20:23 <wilhelm> daniel: htmlunit is special.
12:21:02 <wilhelm> andreastt: Should we treat htmlunit as equal to the full browsers?
12:21:26 <wilhelm> daniel: Logs are very ill-defined.
12:21:54 <wilhelm> daniel: How do we export the console logs?
12:22:05 <wilhelm> andreastt: Logs are also inconsitent.
12:22:33 <wilhelm> andreastt: Should gettagname return capital letters or lowercase?
12:25:29 <wilhelm> andreastt: Implementations differ on assertion of whether an element is stale or not.
12:28:18 <wilhelm> wilhelm: How should commands and paramters be written in the spec?
12:29:34 <wilhelm> dburns: See section 9.1.2 for one propsal.
12:29:52 <wilhelm> daniel: The methods are currently a signature rather than a semantic description.
12:31:06 <dawagner> Reference: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/Ecma-262.pdf
12:31:56 <wilhelm> dawagner: See section 9.8.1 i EcmaScript for an example of how this may be done.
12:33:48 <wilhelm> wilhelm: See also the steps here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/dnd.html#dnd
12:34:20 <wilhelm> andreastt: Drag and drop is also an open issue. What happens if you drag between different browsers?
12:40:31 <wilhelm> (FindElementBy() is being specced on the whiteboard.)
12:43:01 <wilhelm> wilhelm: DOM4 spec may be a good example: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
12:45:41 <wilhelm> RRSAgent, make minutes
12:45:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
12:53:20 <wilhelm> (Discussion around spec format for this not minuted closely.)
12:53:41 <wilhelm> daniel: What do we do about edge cases? What happens if you try get an element when you don't have a document?
12:53:57 <wilhelm> daniel: Where do define exceptions to be returned?
12:54:25 <wilhelm> simon: What happens if a modal dialog pops up underway?
12:57:21 <wilhelm> eran: Yes, I will propse a spec text for section 15. User input.
12:58:01 <wilhelm> simon: Opera has an interesting implementation for screenshots.
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13:00:44 <wilhelm> wilhelm: Can you draft a spec on screenshots, Andreas?
13:00:47 <wilhelm> andreastt: Yes.
13:01:21 <wilhelm> simon: Jason Leyba knows much about section 12, executing javascript.
13:01:38 <wilhelm> simon: I will speak to him about making a draft.
13:02:30 <wilhelm> simon: Can you write a draft for 11. Rendering text, Daniel?
13:02:42 <wilhelm> simon: It would be interesting to compare to the innerHTML spec.
13:03:05 <wilhelm> s/innerHTML/innerText
13:03:48 <wilhelm> simon: We could make a spec text that browsers may follow natively, to be included in HTML or DOM spec.
13:04:25 <wilhelm> dawagner: Yes, I will write a first draft.
13:05:22 <wilhelm> simon: Section 10, reading element state, is a low hanging fruit defined in the atoms.
13:06:06 <wilhelm> ... Colours is part of that.
13:06:43 <wilhelm> dawagner: Jim Evans knows a lot about modal dialogs.
13:07:23 <wilhelm> dawagner: Jason did a lot of frames stuff.
13:10:21 <wilhelm> simon: I suggest doing exactly what WebDriver does today. If you have two windows with three tabs each, that's six windows [browsing contexts].
13:10:51 <wilhelm> simon: How do we do window resizing? 
13:11:08 <wilhelm> simon: That should go under the controlling windows seciton.
13:13:13 <wilhelm> wilhelm: [test suite]
13:13:26 <wilhelm> simon: We should do as much testing as we can in JavaScript. For the rest, we fall back to Python.
13:13:43 <wilhelm> simon: David is the right person to lead the work.
13:17:05 <wilhelm> andreastt: WRT an official test suite, what do we do with things that happen entirely within WebDriver?
13:18:49 <wilhelm> wilhelm: Are there other organizations we want present at the table in the future? MS has been mentioned, Apple has been mentioned.
13:19:07 <wilhelm> simon: I'd like an official representative for the Chrome team. I will find a candidate.
13:19:53 <wilhelm> wilhelm: WRT other browser vendors, I suggest we move to a FPWD and the actively encourage them to join us.
13:20:50 <wilhelm> wilhelm: What should we specify and what should be left to implementers?
13:21:14 <wilhelm> simon: We spec as little as possible to ensure interoperability, delegate to other specifications where we can.
13:22:54 <wilhelm> wilhelm: We've made good progress today – I'm running out of things on my list. Let's end the formal part of the meeting here, and do real work the rest of the day.
13:23:02 <wilhelm> RRSAgent, make minutes
13:23:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
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14:33:59 <wilhelm> RRSAgent, bye
14:33:59 <RRSAgent> I see no action items