IRC log of swcg on 2012-01-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:09:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swcg
13:09:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:09:08 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:09:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #swcg
13:09:10 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7924
13:09:10 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_CG()9:00AM scheduled to start in 51 minutes
13:09:11 [trackbot]
Meeting: Semantic Web Coordination Group Teleconference
13:09:11 [trackbot]
Date: 11 January 2012
13:09:33 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: agenda:
13:10:05 [ivan]
Meeting: Semantic Web Coordination Group Telco
13:10:08 [ivan]
Chair: Ivan
13:10:12 [ivan]
Regrets: Paul
13:40:05 [Guus]
Guus has joined #swcg
13:52:30 [mhausenblas]
mhausenblas has joined #swcg
13:52:41 [Luc]
Luc has joined #swcg
13:57:14 [Guus]
Guus has joined #swcg
13:57:28 [tbaker]
tbaker has joined #swcg
13:57:54 [Guus]
[DanBri and I are in Milan, but are connection is too slow/unreliable to join effectively, I'm afraid]
13:58:27 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Ashok_Malhotra has joined #swcg
13:58:30 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:58:30 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
13:58:31 [Zakim]
SW_CG()9:00AM has now started
13:58:32 [Zakim]
13:58:34 [LeeF]
LeeF has joined #swcg
13:59:06 [Zakim]
13:59:16 [Zakim]
13:59:27 [Zakim]
13:59:29 [Zakim]
14:00:12 [Zakim]
14:00:28 [Zakim]
+ +1.860.326.aaaa
14:00:43 [ivan]
zakim, aaaa is Vijay
14:00:43 [Zakim]
+Vijay; got it
14:01:43 [ivan]
zakim, who is noisy
14:01:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is noisy', ivan
14:01:49 [ivan]
zakim, who is noisy?
14:01:49 [Luc]
it was me ;-)
14:02:00 [Zakim]
ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ashok_Malhotra (9%), mhausenblas (30%), sandro (35%)
14:03:29 [Zakim]
14:03:48 [bhyland]
Good morning Ivan
14:03:57 [ivan]
zakim, davidwood also has bhyland
14:03:57 [Zakim]
+bhyland; got it
14:04:18 [sandro]
scribe: sandro
14:05:05 [ivan]
Topic: admin
14:05:11 [ivan]
-> minutes of last meeting
14:05:32 [bhyland]
bhyland has joined #swcg
14:05:32 [mhausenblas]
14:05:45 [ivan]
Topic: next meeting
14:05:52 [sandro]
RESOLVED: accept as minutes of last week
14:05:57 [sandro]
14:06:01 [ivan]
2012 jan 25
14:06:23 [ivan]
Topic: congrats
14:06:24 [sandro]
next script: tom or david
14:06:36 [sandro]
regrets for next next meeting from me and Bern.
14:07:00 [sandro]
ivan: congrats
14:07:11 [sandro]
ivan: RDFa, SPARQL, ...
14:07:16 [sandro]
ivan: Provenance
14:07:25 [sandro]
ivan: prov-o and prov-primer FPWD
14:07:31 [Luc]
thanks, Ivan
14:07:41 [ivan]
Topic: FPWD intro
14:08:11 [sandro]
ivan: RDFa lite. alas, no Manu today.
14:08:41 [sandro]
... you probably heard about the discussions, happy ending is this simple subset of RDFa
14:09:07 [sandro]
... a few attributes, and some advice to publishers, to stick to these simple attributes for simple things.
14:09:17 [sandro]
... cannot set datatypes or do complex structures
14:09:21 [sandro]
... for simple things it's very simple
14:09:32 [sandro]
... similar complexity to microdata
14:10:07 [sandro]
... has publically said they will encourage their users to use RDFa lite
14:10:30 [sandro]
... will encourage to the same degree as microdata
14:10:45 [sandro]
davidwood: Alas, that's not actually reflected in their documentation yet.
14:11:20 [Zakim]
14:11:24 [Zakim]
+Tom_Baker (was [IPcaller])
14:12:52 [sandro]
ivan: Goal is for RDFa lite to be its own Recommendation. For people authoring RDFa, it should stand on its own.
14:13:23 [Luc]
Provenance Data Model (prov-dm):
14:13:23 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Jeni Tennison ran a tak force on RDFa and Microdata
14:13:25 [Guus]
about RDFa & DanBi is very optimistic, but he suggests not to shout about it yet
14:13:38 [Ashok_Malhotra]
14:13:41 [sandro]
14:13:43 [Luc]
Provenance Ontology (prov-o):
14:14:06 [sandro]
sandro: prov-o is a mapping of prov data model to OWL 2
14:14:07 [Luc]
Provenance Primer (prov-primer):
14:14:30 [Luc]
Provenance Access and Query (prov-aq):
14:14:57 [sandro]
luc: Once you have obtained a resource, aq tells you how to find out about its provenance.
14:15:11 [sandro]
... including SPARQL querying
14:15:13 [ivan]
14:15:19 [sandro]
ack ivan
14:15:59 [sandro]
ivan: On prov-aq it raises some concern, because there has been a lot of discussion of HTTP protocols, SPARQL REST, Linked Data Platform
14:16:19 [sandro]
... have you checked/seen/sync'd about all that?
14:16:32 [sandro]
... eg in LDP charter, ways to get info about datasets through HTTP.
14:17:08 [sandro]
Luc: I'm aware of HTTP protocol for SPARQL. Not sure about other points.
14:17:34 [sandro]
... it would be useful to get feedback from other WGs
14:17:59 [sandro]
... to see how what we're proposing integrates with other systems
14:18:10 [sandro]
Luc: any specific people
14:18:24 [LeeF]
Sandro is at the nexus of all of this :-D
14:19:04 [sandro]
sandro: I'll probably review at least while I'm en route to Prov F2F
14:19:58 [sandro]
lee: I'll ask the SPARQL group for volunteers to review
14:20:18 [LeeF]
"503 Service Unavailable"
14:20:27 [sandro]
sandro: rdf wg too
14:20:45 [LeeF]
better now
14:20:58 [Zakim]
14:20:58 [sandro]
luc: not the right time yet. we haven't settled our notion of "accounts", which is likely to related to named graphs
14:21:04 [LeeF]
14:22:17 [sandro]
Prov F2F in Amsterdam Feb 2/3.
14:22:24 [ivan]
Topic: Linked Data WG, Workshop
14:22:58 [mhausenblas]
q+ to ask re time line and chairs
14:23:23 [sandro]
ivan: I heard Linked Data Patterns workshop was lively and good
14:23:49 [davidwood]
Linked Enterprise Data Patterns Workshop:
14:24:02 [davidwood]
Workshop report:
14:24:11 [sandro]
ivan: advance notice went to AC that we are working on this.
14:24:15 [ivan]
-> announcement to the AC
14:24:17 [davidwood]
TimBL also attended both days
14:24:44 [ivan]
-> very initial charter
14:24:49 [sandro]
ivan: I tried to summarize from the outside what I saw as a possible initial charter
14:25:47 [sandro]
davidwood: Cochairs were Ashok, Arnaud, and myself, with lots of help from EricP
14:25:59 [sandro]
davidwood: Martin Nally, CTO of IBM Rational
14:26:11 [sandro]
david: Brad Allen from Elsevier
14:26:27 [sandro]
... enterprise participation
14:26:46 [sandro]
... theory was that as enterprises began to use Linked Data techniques internally, to solve problems,
14:26:54 [sandro]
... they would fall into same problems/patterns
14:27:04 [sandro]
... 1. data integration
14:27:27 [sandro]
... integration of enterprise software, never meant to work together, but with APIs
14:27:40 [sandro]
... lingua franca without enterprise service bus
14:27:48 [sandro]
... this is what IBM Rational is doing
14:28:02 [sandro]
... others are doing just data integration.
14:28:11 [sandro]
... workshop reports lists some of the useful patterns
14:28:19 [sandro]
... see position papers for the rest
14:28:19 [davidwood]
Workshop papers:
14:28:50 [Guus]
Guus has joined #swcg
14:28:57 [LeeF]
14:29:17 [sandro]
davidwood: Eg, how do people do authentication and authorization?
14:29:32 [sandro]
... people are still thinking in their enterprise mentality, not the Web way
14:29:50 [sandro]
... clear exceptions to that, but avg enterprise is mired in older solutions
14:30:24 [sandro]
... once we got to thinking Web way, we got into some patterns about how to update data, separate data from metadata, patch information
14:30:40 [sandro]
... surprosing interest in defining exactly what Linked Data means in an enterprise context
14:30:47 [sandro]
... defining a Minimal Linked Data service
14:31:21 [sandro]
Ashok_Malhotra: What was really wonderful was that we had people there USING linked data to do REAL and complicated things
14:31:28 [davidwood]
+1 to Ashok
14:31:33 [sandro]
... and they were running into some difficulties
14:31:54 [Zakim]
14:31:58 [sandro]
... the IBM folks had come up with some ideas about extending REST, doing different ATOM-linke things with RDF
14:32:22 [davidwood]
IBM also said that DB2 will support RDF "sometime in 2012"
14:32:22 [sandro]
... the feeling was that we ought to be able to look at these patterns, these people's experiences, then codify them. Write them down, to help other people
14:32:33 [mhausenblas]
14:35:08 [sandro]
sandro: It was very exciting to see this RDF+REST as universal API theory finally manifest as real products
14:35:21 [ivan]
ack mhausenblas
14:35:21 [Zakim]
mhausenblas, you wanted to ask re time line and chairs
14:35:23 [sandro]
bern: this should be a keynote at SemTech SF for Martin Nally
14:35:25 [mhausenblas]
Michael: Two remarks and questions re the upcoming LD WG - 1. questions re timeline and chairs, 2. liaison/alignment with
14:36:56 [bhyland]
Correction: I suggested to Tony that there be a keynote at SemTech West by the three co-chairs from the Linking Enterprise Data Patterns workshop, namely Ashok Malhotra, Arnaud Le Hors (IBM) and Dave Wood.
14:37:27 [sandro]
ivan: prelim timeline is workshop report to come out this week
14:37:28 [bhyland]
Shortly after I suggested this to Tony, I heard Dave & Ashok spoke and Martin Nally has been approached for the keynote
14:37:55 [bhyland]
by Tony presumably.
14:37:56 [sandro]
ivan: Ian Jacobs did an interview with Arnaud, also for publication this week
14:38:21 [sandro]
ivan: when & how consensus on charter?
14:38:44 [sandro]
ivan: possibly to AC by end of month... maybe.... voting takes a month.
14:38:53 [sandro]
ivan: Could potentially start in March.
14:38:54 [sandro]
14:39:13 [mhausenblas]
14:40:00 [ivan]
ack sandro
14:40:47 [sandro]
sandro: Member submission expected from IBM.
14:40:59 [sandro]
ashok: It requires some legal agreements, holding us up.
14:41:22 [sandro]
sandro: So I think Ivan's timeline may be somewhat optimistic given that.
14:41:42 [davidwood]
Networked Data Community Group:
14:42:56 [sandro]
ivan: This community group is interesting.
14:43:23 [sandro]
ivan: Ideally, my preference would be this CG folks into WG, if the WG materializes
14:43:49 [sandro]
mhausenblas: Makes sense.
14:44:13 [sandro]
ivan: The draft charter should be member visible or public soon
14:44:31 [sandro]
ivan: So this is a time the CG can give us the comments, to make that synergy easier
14:45:44 [sandro]
... on the charter itself, based on my reading of some of the emails, so I'd like feedback about whether this really reflects what was discussed there. feedback, please!
14:45:55 [sandro]
... comments in email are welcome too, of course
14:46:07 [sandro]
Ashok_Malhotra: I have a couple of comments
14:46:23 [Ashok_Malhotra]
"provide a standard environment"
14:46:31 [sandro]
... I think it's a reasonable charter. On thing jumped out at me: "provide a standard environment"
14:46:42 [sandro]
... it sounds like we're building a development envionrment
14:46:50 [mhausenblas]
Michael: One quick comment re the charter ... copy & paste error in section 10: "This charter for the Government Linked Data Working Group ..."
14:46:52 [sandro]
... and we're not. we're just codifying some patterns.
14:47:04 [sandro]
... so "standard environment" is slightly misleading.
14:47:32 [sandro]
... and as David pointed out, one of the big problems we're going after is Application Integration, and that's not here.
14:47:54 [sandro]
ivan: Can one of you guys suggest, soon, some language to help make that clear?
14:48:19 [sandro]
... I learned today that the software integration part is not clear in the charter, and should be made clearer.
14:48:34 [sandro]
... I'm not sure how to exactly formulate that.
14:48:50 [mhausenblas]
q+ to add two comments re the content
14:49:21 [LeeF]
This is my big concern as well!!
14:50:01 [sandro]
... one more thing: I don't want this to crowd out the other Semantic Web work, or to make people concerned that it might
14:50:02 [bhyland]
14:50:04 [ivan]
ack mhausenblas
14:50:04 [Zakim]
mhausenblas, you wanted to add two comments re the content
14:50:05 [mhausenblas]
Michael: re "Define a mechanism for advertizing SPARQL endpoints" ... 1. new HTTP headers are costly, almost impossible to *deploy on the Web*. 2. re SPARQL SD and VoID
14:50:47 [Luc]
q+ to ask if provenance should be mentioned
14:51:11 [sandro]
mhausenblas: I don't see a reason to define a new vocab here...
14:52:27 [mhausenblas]
14:53:39 [ivan]
ack bhyland
14:53:43 [mhausenblas]
14:53:51 [sandro]
sandro: mhausenblas let's you and I take this off line and see if we can make this service description bit happen within SPARQL.
14:54:06 [mhausenblas]
Michael: I agree and thanks for this, Sandro
14:54:27 [sandro]
bhyland: This WG is about the use of Linked Data in Enterprise, and with Patterns.
14:54:43 [ivan]
14:54:53 [sandro]
bhyland: I associate with "Linked Data" a certain set of stuff, and we don't want to throw all this at them.
14:55:10 [sandro]
bhyland: GLD is very prescriptive, esp on Linked Open Data.
14:55:11 [sandro]
14:55:20 [sandro]
q+ to say "Linked Data Platform"
14:55:56 [sandro]
bhyland: needs to be narrowed down from all of "Linked Data". comm group also very broard.
14:56:36 [sandro]
bhyland: Charter needs some iteration to get the focus clear. Enterprise product managers to be involved.
14:56:37 [ivan]
ace Luc
14:56:38 [LeeF]
FWIW, I thought that at the workshop there was a great deal of non-enterprise linked data stuff (in addition to some enterprise linked data stuff)
14:56:41 [sandro]
ack Luc
14:56:41 [Zakim]
Luc, you wanted to ask if provenance should be mentioned
14:56:51 [sandro]
Luc: Was there any mention of provenance?
14:57:31 [sandro]
luc: Prov WG wont standardize everything; maybe this group needs to do some for Prov with linked data.
14:58:13 [sandro]
davidwood: There was lots of talk, the desire for Prov. Revelytix talk covered it a bit. It would be interesting, but how it fits into the charter isn't clear to me.
14:58:51 [sandro]
luc: I don't have concrete ideas at this stage, but it would be interesting.
14:59:31 [sandro]
ivan: One of the threads of this charter ... (lost)
14:59:39 [ivan]
ack sandro
14:59:39 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to say "Linked Data Platform"
15:00:05 [sandro]
luc: rev doing prov-o spec
15:01:11 [sandro]
15:01:21 [bhyland]
Sandro: Balancing technical ideas for this proposed group and W3C role. RDF + REST as "universal API", a new version of a distributed object system (without baggage).
15:01:53 [sandro]
sandro: That's my intution for the kind of thing the group should be producing.
15:02:28 [sandro]
ivan: Sandro and I will work on this, going forward.
15:02:51 [sandro]
ivan: When we get to member feedback, we will need a good address list of people we should be sure know about this work,.
15:02:57 [davidwood]
I just mailed the LD WG mailing list noting that we need language for the inclusion of software/application integration:
15:03:22 [sandro]
ivan: If you know of folks who should be involved, be sure to let us know, please.
15:03:38 [bhyland]
What I really like about this proposed group is that it commercial companies solving real complex problems with RDF and RESTful approach. Very cool. Congrats to all that attended & are moving this forward :-)
15:04:02 [sandro]
ivan: There is a mailing list, for comments on the charter:
15:04:21 [Zakim]
15:04:21 [bhyland]
bye all.
15:04:22 [Zakim]
15:04:24 [Zakim]
15:04:27 [Zakim]
15:04:29 [Zakim]
15:04:31 [Zakim]
15:04:53 [Zakim]
15:06:51 [sandro]
mhausenblas, email for now please.
15:07:18 [mhausenblas]
15:20:15 [Zakim]
15:20:17 [Zakim]
15:20:17 [Zakim]
SW_CG()9:00AM has ended
15:20:19 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ivan, LeeF, Ashok_Malhotra, Luc, mhausenblas, sandro, +1.860.326.aaaa, Vijay, davidwood, bhyland, Tom_Baker, George
15:23:13 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:23:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan