13:09:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swcg
13:09:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-swcg-irc
13:09:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:09:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #swcg
13:09:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7924
13:09:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_CG()9:00AM scheduled to start in 51 minutes
13:09:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Web Coordination Group Teleconference
13:09:11 <trackbot> Date: 11 January 2012
13:09:33 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/E8953715-5AD9-49ED-AEEF-CCE8E1E892B2@w3.org
13:10:05 <ivan> Meeting: Semantic Web Coordination Group Telco
13:10:08 <ivan> Chair: Ivan
13:10:12 <ivan> Regrets: Paul
13:40:05 <Guus> Guus has joined #swcg
13:52:30 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #swcg
13:52:41 <Luc> Luc has joined #swcg
13:57:14 <Guus> Guus has joined #swcg
13:57:28 <tbaker> tbaker has joined #swcg
13:57:54 <Guus> [DanBri and I are in Milan, but are connection is too slow/unreliable to join effectively, I'm afraid]
13:58:27 <Ashok_Malhotra> Ashok_Malhotra has joined #swcg
13:58:30 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:58:30 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
13:58:31 <Zakim> SW_CG()9:00AM has now started
13:58:32 <Zakim> +Ivan
13:58:34 <LeeF> LeeF has joined #swcg
13:59:06 <Zakim> +LeeF
13:59:16 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
13:59:27 <Zakim> +Luc
13:59:29 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
14:00:12 <Zakim> +sandro
14:00:28 <Zakim> + +1.860.326.aaaa
14:00:43 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is Vijay
14:00:43 <Zakim> +Vijay; got it
14:01:43 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy
14:01:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', ivan
14:01:49 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?
14:01:49 <Luc> it was me ;-)
14:02:00 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ashok_Malhotra (9%), mhausenblas (30%), sandro (35%)
14:03:29 <Zakim> +davidwood
14:03:48 <bhyland> Good morning Ivan
14:03:57 <ivan> zakim, davidwood also has bhyland
14:03:57 <Zakim> +bhyland; got it
14:04:18 <sandro> scribe: sandro
14:05:05 <ivan> Topic: admin
14:05:11 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-swcg-minutes.html minutes of last meeting
14:05:32 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #swcg
14:05:32 <mhausenblas> +1
14:05:45 <ivan> Topic: next meeting
14:05:52 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-swcg-minutes.html as minutes of last week
14:05:57 <sandro> s/meet/meeting/
14:06:01 <ivan> 2012 jan 25
14:06:23 <ivan> Topic: congrats
14:06:24 <sandro> next script: tom or david
14:06:36 <sandro> regrets for next next meeting from me and Bern.
14:07:00 <sandro> ivan: congrats
14:07:11 <sandro> ivan: RDFa, SPARQL, ...
14:07:16 <sandro> ivan: Provenance
14:07:25 <sandro> ivan: prov-o and prov-primer FPWD
14:07:31 <Luc> thanks, Ivan
14:07:41 <ivan> Topic: FPWD intro
14:08:11 <sandro> ivan: RDFa lite.   alas, no Manu today.
14:08:41 <sandro> ... you probably heard about the schema.org discussions, happy ending is this simple subset of RDFa
14:09:07 <sandro> ... a few attributes, and some advice to publishers, to stick to these simple attributes for simple things.
14:09:17 <sandro> ... cannot set datatypes or do complex structures
14:09:21 <sandro> ... for simple things it's very simple
14:09:32 <sandro> ... similar complexity to microdata
14:10:07 <sandro> ... schema.org has publically said they will encourage their users to use RDFa lite
14:10:30 <sandro> ... will encourage to the same degree as microdata
14:10:45 <sandro> davidwood: Alas, that's not actually reflected in their documentation yet.
14:11:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:11:24 <Zakim> +Tom_Baker (was [IPcaller])
14:12:52 <sandro> ivan: Goal is for RDFa lite to be its own Recommendation.    For people authoring RDFa, it should stand on its own.
14:13:23 <Luc> Provenance Data Model (prov-dm): http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/ 
14:13:23 <Ashok_Malhotra> Jeni Tennison ran a tak force on RDFa and Microdata
14:13:25 <Guus> about RDFa & schema.org: DanBi is very optimistic, but he suggests not to shout about it yet
14:13:38 <Ashok_Malhotra> s/tak/task/
14:13:41 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-aq/   http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-primer/
14:13:43 <Luc> Provenance Ontology (prov-o): http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/ 
14:14:06 <sandro> sandro: prov-o is a mapping of prov data model to OWL 2
14:14:07 <Luc> Provenance Primer (prov-primer): http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-primer/ 
14:14:30 <Luc> Provenance Access and Query (prov-aq): http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-aq/ 
14:14:57 <sandro> luc: Once you have obtained a resource, aq tells you how to find out about its provenance.
14:15:11 <sandro> ... including SPARQL querying
14:15:13 <ivan> q+
14:15:19 <sandro> ack ivan
14:15:59 <sandro> ivan: On prov-aq it raises some concern, because there has been a lot of discussion of HTTP protocols, SPARQL REST, Linked Data Platform
14:16:19 <sandro> ... have you checked/seen/sync'd about all that?
14:16:32 <sandro> ... eg in LDP charter, ways to get info about datasets through HTTP.
14:17:08 <sandro> Luc: I'm aware of HTTP protocol for SPARQL.  Not sure about other points.
14:17:34 <sandro> ... it would be useful to get feedback from other WGs
14:17:59 <sandro> ... to see how what we're proposing integrates with other systems
14:18:10 <sandro> Luc: any specific people
14:18:24 <LeeF> Sandro is at the nexus of all of this :-D
14:19:04 <sandro> sandro: I'll probably review at least while I'm en route to Prov F2F
14:19:58 <sandro> lee: I'll ask the SPARQL group for volunteers to review http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-aq/
14:20:18 <LeeF> "503 Service Unavailable" 
14:20:27 <sandro> sandro: rdf wg too
14:20:45 <LeeF> better now
14:20:58 <Zakim> -Vijay
14:20:58 <sandro> luc: not the right time yet.    we haven't settled our notion of "accounts", which is likely to related to named graphs
14:21:04 <LeeF> yup
14:22:17 <sandro> Prov F2F in Amsterdam Feb 2/3.
14:22:24 <ivan> Topic: Linked Data WG, Workshop
14:22:58 <mhausenblas> q+ to ask re time line and chairs
14:23:23 <sandro> ivan: I heard Linked Data Patterns workshop was lively and good
14:23:49 <davidwood> Linked Enterprise Data Patterns Workshop: http://www.w3.org/2011/09/LinkedData/
14:24:02 <davidwood> Workshop report: http://www.w3.org/2011/09/LinkedData/Report
14:24:11 <sandro> ivan: advance notice went to AC that we are working on this.
14:24:15 <ivan> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2011OctDec/0064.html announcement to the AC
14:24:17 <davidwood> TimBL also attended both days
14:24:44 <ivan> -> https://www.w3.org/2012/01/ldwg-charter.html very initial charter
14:24:49 <sandro> ivan: I tried to summarize from the outside what I saw as a possible initial charter
14:25:47 <sandro> davidwood: Cochairs were Ashok, Arnaud, and myself, with lots of help from EricP
14:25:59 <sandro> davidwood: Martin Nally, CTO of IBM Rational
14:26:11 <sandro> david: Brad Allen from Elsevier
14:26:27 <sandro> ... enterprise participation
14:26:46 <sandro> ... theory was that as enterprises began to use Linked Data techniques internally, to solve problems,
14:26:54 <sandro> ... they would fall into same problems/patterns
14:27:04 <sandro> ... 1. data integration
14:27:27 <sandro> ... integration of enterprise software, never meant to work together, but with APIs
14:27:40 <sandro> ... lingua franca without enterprise service bus
14:27:48 <sandro> ... this is what IBM Rational is doing
14:28:02 <sandro> ... others are doing just data integration.
14:28:11 <sandro> ... workshop reports lists some of the useful patterns
14:28:19 <sandro> ... see position papers for the rest
14:28:19 <davidwood> Workshop papers: http://www.w3.org/2011/09/LinkedData/Papers
14:28:50 <Guus> Guus has joined #swcg
14:28:57 <LeeF> auth/auth
14:29:17 <sandro> davidwood: Eg, how do people do authentication and authorization?
14:29:32 <sandro> ... people are still thinking in their enterprise mentality, not the Web way
14:29:50 <sandro> ... clear exceptions to that, but avg enterprise is mired in older solutions
14:30:24 <sandro> ... once we got to thinking Web way, we got into some patterns about how to update data, separate data from metadata, patch information
14:30:40 <sandro> ... surprosing interest in defining exactly what Linked Data means in an enterprise context
14:30:47 <sandro> ... defining a Minimal Linked Data service
14:31:21 <sandro> Ashok_Malhotra: What was really wonderful was that we had people there USING linked data to do REAL and complicated things
14:31:28 <davidwood> +1 to Ashok
14:31:33 <sandro> ... and they were running into some difficulties
14:31:54 <Zakim> +George
14:31:58 <sandro> ... the IBM folks had come up with some ideas about extending REST, doing different ATOM-linke things with RDF
14:32:22 <davidwood> IBM also said that DB2 will support RDF "sometime in 2012"
14:32:22 <sandro> ... the feeling was that we ought to be able to look at these patterns, these people's experiences, then codify them.  Write them down, to help other people
14:32:33 <mhausenblas> q?
14:35:08 <sandro> sandro: It was very exciting to see this RDF+REST as universal API theory finally manifest as real products
14:35:21 <ivan> ack mhausenblas 
14:35:21 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask re time line and chairs
14:35:23 <sandro> bern: this should be a keynote at SemTech SF for Martin Nally
14:35:25 <mhausenblas> Michael: Two remarks and questions re the upcoming LD WG - 1. questions re timeline and chairs, 2. liaison/alignment with http://www.w3.org/community/networked-data/
14:36:56 <bhyland> Correction: I suggested to Tony that there be a keynote at SemTech West by the three co-chairs from the Linking Enterprise Data Patterns workshop, namely Ashok Malhotra, Arnaud Le Hors (IBM) and Dave Wood.
14:37:27 <sandro> ivan: prelim timeline is workshop report to come out this week
14:37:28 <bhyland> Shortly after I suggested this to Tony, I heard Dave & Ashok spoke and Martin Nally has been approached for the keynote
14:37:55 <bhyland> by Tony presumably.
14:37:56 <sandro> ivan: Ian Jacobs did an interview with Arnaud, also for publication this week
14:38:21 <sandro> ivan: when & how consensus on charter?
14:38:44 <sandro> ivan: possibly to AC by end of month...   maybe....    voting takes a month.
14:38:53 <sandro> ivan: Could potentially start in March.
14:38:54 <sandro> q+
14:39:13 <mhausenblas> q?
14:40:00 <ivan> ack sandro 
14:40:47 <sandro> sandro: Member submission expected from IBM.
14:40:59 <sandro> ashok: It requires some legal agreements, holding us up.
14:41:22 <sandro> sandro: So I think Ivan's timeline may be somewhat optimistic given that.
14:41:42 <davidwood> Networked Data Community Group: http://www.w3.org/community/networked-data/
14:42:56 <sandro> ivan: This community group is interesting.
14:43:23 <sandro> ivan: Ideally, my preference would be this CG folks into WG, if the WG materializes
14:43:49 <sandro> mhausenblas: Makes sense.  
14:44:13 <sandro> ivan: The draft charter should be member visible or public soon
14:44:31 <sandro> ivan: So this is a time the CG can give us the comments, to make that synergy easier
14:45:44 <sandro> ... on the charter itself, based on my reading of some of the emails, so I'd like feedback about whether this really reflects what was discussed there.   feedback, please!
14:45:55 <sandro> ... comments in email are welcome too, of course
14:46:07 <sandro> Ashok_Malhotra: I have a couple of comments
14:46:23 <Ashok_Malhotra> "provide a standard environment" 
14:46:31 <sandro> ... I think it's a reasonable charter.    On thing jumped out at me: "provide a standard environment"
14:46:42 <sandro> ... it sounds like we're building a development envionrment
14:46:50 <mhausenblas> Michael: One quick comment re the charter ... copy & paste error in section 10: "This charter for the Government Linked Data Working Group ..."
14:46:52 <sandro> ... and we're not.   we're just codifying some patterns.
14:47:04 <sandro> ... so "standard environment" is slightly misleading.
14:47:32 <sandro> ... and as David pointed out, one of the big problems we're going after is Application Integration, and that's not here.
14:47:54 <sandro> ivan: Can one of you guys suggest, soon, some language to help make that clear?
14:48:19 <sandro> ... I learned today that the software integration part is not clear in the charter, and should be made clearer.
14:48:34 <sandro> ... I'm not sure how to exactly formulate that.
14:48:50 <mhausenblas> q+ to add two comments re the content
14:49:21 <LeeF> This is my big concern as well!!
14:50:01 <sandro> ... one more thing: I don't want this to crowd out the other Semantic Web work, or to make people concerned that it might
14:50:02 <bhyland> q+
14:50:04 <ivan> ack mhausenblas 
14:50:04 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to add two comments re the content
14:50:05 <mhausenblas> Michael: re "Define a mechanism for advertizing SPARQL endpoints" ... 1. new HTTP headers are costly, almost impossible to *deploy on the Web*. 2. re SPARQL SD and VoID
14:50:47 <Luc> q+ to ask if provenance should be mentioned
14:51:11 <sandro> mhausenblas: I don't see a reason to define a new vocab here...
14:52:27 <mhausenblas> Michael: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:MH-1
14:53:39 <ivan> ack bhyland 
14:53:43 <mhausenblas> q?
14:53:51 <sandro> sandro: mhausenblas let's you and I take this off line and see if we can make this service description bit happen within SPARQL.
14:54:06 <mhausenblas> Michael: I agree and thanks for this, Sandro
14:54:27 <sandro> bhyland: This WG is about the use of Linked Data in Enterprise, and with Patterns.
14:54:43 <ivan> q?
14:54:53 <sandro> bhyland: I associate with "Linked Data" a certain set of stuff, and we don't want to throw all this at them.
14:55:10 <sandro> bhyland: GLD is very prescriptive, esp on Linked Open Data.
14:55:11 <sandro> q+
14:55:20 <sandro> q+ to say "Linked Data Platform"
14:55:56 <sandro> bhyland: needs to be narrowed down from all of "Linked Data".      comm group also very broard.
14:56:36 <sandro> bhyland: Charter needs some iteration to get the focus clear.    Enterprise product managers to be involved.
14:56:37 <ivan> ace Luc 
14:56:38 <LeeF> FWIW, I thought that at the workshop there was a great deal of non-enterprise linked data stuff (in addition to some enterprise linked data stuff)
14:56:41 <sandro> ack Luc 
14:56:41 <Zakim> Luc, you wanted to ask if provenance should be mentioned
14:56:51 <sandro> Luc: Was there any mention of provenance?
14:57:31 <sandro> luc: Prov WG wont standardize everything; maybe this group needs to do some for Prov with linked data.
14:58:13 <sandro> davidwood: There was lots of talk, the desire for Prov.    Revelytix talk covered it a bit.   It would be interesting, but how it fits into the charter isn't clear to me.
14:58:51 <sandro> luc:  I don't have concrete ideas at this stage, but it would be interesting.
14:59:31 <sandro> ivan: One of the threads of this charter ...   (lost)
14:59:39 <ivan> ack sandro 
14:59:39 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say "Linked Data Platform"
15:00:05 <sandro> luc: rev doing prov-o spec
15:01:11 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/REST
15:01:21 <bhyland> Sandro: Balancing technical ideas for this proposed group and W3C role.  RDF + REST as "universal API", a new version of a distributed object system (without baggage).
15:01:53 <sandro> sandro: That's my intution for the kind of thing the group should be producing.
15:02:28 <sandro> ivan: Sandro and I will work on this, going forward.
15:02:51 <sandro> ivan: When we get to member feedback, we will need a good address list of people we should be sure know about this work,.
15:02:57 <davidwood> I just mailed the LD WG mailing list noting that we need language for the inclusion of software/application integration: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp/2012Jan/0000.html
15:03:22 <sandro> ivan: If you know of folks who should be involved, be sure to let us know, please.
15:03:38 <bhyland> What I really like about this proposed group is that it commercial companies solving real complex problems with RDF and RESTful approach.  Very cool.  Congrats to all that attended & are moving this forward :-)
15:04:02 <sandro> ivan: There is a mailing list, for comments on the charter: public-ldp@w3.org
15:04:21 <Zakim> -Luc
15:04:21 <bhyland> bye all.
15:04:22 <Zakim> -Tom_Baker
15:04:24 <Zakim> -George
15:04:27 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:04:29 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
15:04:31 <Zakim> -davidwood
15:04:53 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
15:06:51 <sandro> mhausenblas, email for now please.
15:07:18 <mhausenblas> OK
15:20:15 <Zakim> -sandro
15:20:17 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:20:17 <Zakim> SW_CG()9:00AM has ended
15:20:19 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan, LeeF, Ashok_Malhotra, Luc, mhausenblas, sandro, +1.860.326.aaaa, Vijay, davidwood, bhyland, Tom_Baker, George
15:23:13 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:23:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-swcg-minutes.html ivan