IRC log of dnt on 2012-01-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:41:43 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #dnt
16:41:43 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-dnt-irc
16:41:57 [aleecia]: regrets+ jamyer
16:42:10 [aleecia]: s/jamyer/jmayer
16:42:26 [aleecia]: rrsagent, make logs public
16:43:02 [rigo]: rigo has joined #dnt
16:43:40 [aleecia]: agenda+ Selection of scribe
16:43:45 [aleecia]: agenda?
16:43:57 [aleecia]: agenda=
16:44:19 [aleecia]: zakim, clear agenda
16:44:19 [Zakim]: agenda cleared
16:44:34 [aleecia]: agenda+ Selection of scribe
16:44:58 [aleecia]: agenda+ Review of overdue action items: https://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/overdue
16:45:19 [aleecia]: agenda+ Discussion of F2F meeting
16:45:31 [aleecia]: agenda+ Closing PENDING REVIEW issues in TPE editor's draft [Roy]
16:45:44 [aleecia]: agenda+ Discussion of Europe, Canada, the US and DNT; request for volunteers
16:45:55 [aleecia]: agenda+ Discussion of proposed texts for exceptions (Issue-22, issue-23, more if time allows)
16:46:09 [aleecia]: agenda+ Announce next meeting & adjourn
16:46:55 [sidstamm]: sidstamm has joined #dnt
16:49:53 [eberkower]: eberkower has joined #dnt
16:50:08 [dsriedel]: dsriedel has joined #dnt
16:50:25 [npdoty]: npdoty has joined #dnt
16:50:43 [Zakim]: T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
16:50:50 [Zakim]: + +1.408.674.aaaa
16:50:57 [aleecia]: hi Nick
16:51:05 [efelten]: efelten has joined #dnt
16:51:07 [aleecia]: I have the agenda done, and other housekeeping
16:52:13 [Zakim]: + +1.609.981.aabb
16:53:04 [Zakim]: +[Mozilla]
16:53:05 [tl]: Zakim, aabb is tl
16:53:06 [Zakim]: +tl; got it
16:53:15 [sidstamm]: Zakim, Mozilla has sidstamm
16:53:15 [Zakim]: +sidstamm; got it
16:55:10 [Zakim]: +efelten
16:55:50 [johnsimpson]: johnsimpson has joined #DNT
16:55:59 [ninjamarnau]: ninjamarnau has joined #dnt
16:55:59 [Zakim]: +npdoty
16:56:52 [Joanne]: Joanne has joined #DNT
16:56:53 [tl]: zakim, who is making noise?
16:57:03 [Zakim]: tl, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: npdoty (9%)
16:57:23 [tl]: thanks =]
16:57:25 [aleecia]: zakim, who is on the call?
16:57:25 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.408.674.aaaa, tl, [Mozilla], efelten, npdoty
16:57:27 [Zakim]: [Mozilla] has sidstamm
16:57:43 [Zakim]: + +1.646.654.aacc
16:57:53 [Zakim]: + +49.721.913.74.aadd
16:58:00 [aleecia]: It works all too well :-)
16:58:01 [KevinT]: KevinT has joined #dnt
16:58:05 [dsriedel]: zakim, aadd is dsriedel
16:58:05 [Zakim]: +dsriedel; got it
16:58:08 [Zakim]: + +1.415.520.aaee
16:58:10 [dsriedel]: zakim, mute me
16:58:10 [Zakim]: dsriedel should now be muted
16:58:46 [fielding]: fielding has joined #dnt
16:59:01 [Zakim]: + +1.202.346.aaff
16:59:25 [ninjamarnau]: I have issues dialing in
16:59:31 [Zakim]: +fielding
16:59:39 [aleecia]: (Nick, can you help Ninja?)
16:59:49 [Zakim]: + +1.650.862.aagg
16:59:50 [rigo]: zakim, code?
16:59:50 [Zakim]: the conference code is 87225 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), rigo
17:00:02 [Zakim]: +cOlsen
17:00:18 [pedermagee]: pedermagee has joined #dnt
17:00:24 [Zakim]: +Rigo
17:00:29 [rigo]: zakim, mute me
17:00:30 [Zakim]: Rigo should now be muted
17:00:42 [aleecia]: agenda?
17:00:58 [tedleung]: tedleung has joined #dnt
17:00:59 [Zakim]: + +1.202.346.aahh
17:01:09 [Zakim]: + +1.301.270.aaii
17:01:20 [Zakim]: + +49.431.98.aajj
17:01:33 [rigo]: zakim, aajj is Ninja
17:01:34 [Zakim]: +Ninja; got it
17:01:34 [Zakim]: +??P57
17:01:49 [Zakim]: + +1.813.366.aakk
17:02:09 [Zakim]: +Cyril_Concolato
17:02:10 [rigo]: zakim, Ninja is ninjamarnau
17:02:10 [Zakim]: +ninjamarnau; got it
17:02:15 [Zakim]: + +1.415.520.aall
17:02:15 [alex_]: alex_ has joined #dnt
17:02:26 [hwest]: hwest has joined #dnt
17:02:32 [vincent]: vincent has joined #dnt
17:02:33 [Zakim]: +johnsimpson
17:02:42 [KevinT]: zakim, aaee is ktrilli
17:02:42 [Zakim]: +ktrilli; got it
17:02:59 [Zakim]: + +1.202.643.aamm
17:03:01 [Zakim]: +tedleung
17:03:02 [schunter]: schunter has joined #dnt
17:03:13 [johnsimpson]: zakim, who is on phone
17:03:13 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is on phone', johnsimpson
17:03:17 [aleecia]: agenda?
17:03:24 [jeffchester2]: jeffchester2 has joined #dnt
17:03:33 [johnsimpson]: zakim, on call?
17:03:34 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, johnsimpson.
17:03:35 [Zakim]: +Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:03:44 [aleecia]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/agenda-2012-24-01-belgium.html
17:03:51 [johnsimpson]: zakim, mute me
17:03:51 [Zakim]: johnsimpson should now be muted
17:03:58 [Lia]: Lia has joined #dnt
17:04:05 [dsinger]: dsinger has joined #dnt
17:04:23 [johnsimpson]: zakim, who is on the call?
17:04:24 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.408.674.aaaa, tl, [Mozilla], efelten, npdoty, +1.646.654.aacc, dsriedel (muted), ktrilli, +1.202.346.aaff, fielding, +1.650.862.aagg, cOlsen, Rigo (muted),
17:04:27 [ChrisPedigo]: ChrisPedigo has joined #dnt
17:04:27 [Zakim]: ... +1.202.346.aahh, +1.301.270.aaii, ninjamarnau, ??P57 (muted), +1.813.366.aakk, Cyril_Concolato, +1.415.520.aall, johnsimpson (muted), +1.202.643.aamm, tedleung,
17:04:29 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
17:04:30 [Zakim]: ... Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:04:31 [dsinger]: zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:04:33 [Zakim]: [Mozilla] has sidstamm
17:04:35 [Zakim]: +dsinger; got it
17:05:30 [Zakim]: + +1.202.637.aann
17:05:30 [ksmith]: ksmith has joined #DNT
17:05:33 [enewland]: enewland has joined #dnt
17:05:58 [WileyS]: WileyS has joined #DNT
17:06:18 [npdoty]: s/charter document/Member Submission document/
17:06:38 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:07:36 [Zakim]: + +1.202.744.aaoo
17:09:48 [Zakim]: -Rigo
17:09:51 [Zakim]: + +385221aapp
17:10:03 [JC]: JC has joined #DNT
17:10:28 [Zakim]: +AZ
17:10:34 [rigo]: zakim, AZ is me
17:10:36 [Zakim]: +rigo; got it
17:11:02 [WileyS]: zakim, 346.12222 is me
17:11:06 [Zakim]: sorry, WileyS, I do not recognize a party named '346.12222'
17:11:09 [dwainberg]: dwainberg has joined #dnt
17:11:28 [WileyS]: zakim, 346.1222 is me
17:11:28 [Zakim]: sorry, WileyS, I do not recognize a party named '346.1222'
17:11:39 [aleecia]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/49311/brussels-f2f/
17:11:58 [aleecia]: agenda?
17:12:20 [rigo]: You need to be registered with Commission services in order to get into the building, so please register
17:12:25 [BrianTs]: BrianTs has joined #DNT
17:12:28 [aleecia]: https://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/pendingreview
17:12:34 [dsriedel]: @WileyS: I think you are "aahh" regarding the attendees list above
17:12:45 [Zakim]: + +1.646.825.aaqq
17:12:47 [WileyS]: Zakim, aahh is me
17:12:47 [Zakim]: +WileyS; got it
17:12:59 [WileyS]: Thank you dsriedel!
17:13:03 [dsriedel]: yw
17:13:05 [dwainberg]: Zakim, aaqq is dwainberg
17:13:05 [Zakim]: +dwainberg; got it
17:13:19 [aleecia]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-dnt.html
17:13:24 [npdoty]: ISSUE-95 isn't yet "pending review", right?
17:13:26 [ChrisPedigo]: zakim, 202.744.aaoo is me
17:13:26 [Zakim]: sorry, ChrisPedigo, I do not recognize a party named '202.744.aaoo'
17:13:27 [fielding]: Key to that notion of expression is that it must reflect the user's preference, not the preference of some institutional or network-imposed mechanism outside the user's control. Although some controlled network environments, such as public access terminals or managed corporate intranets, might impose restrictions on the use or configuration of installed user agents, such that a user might only have access to user agents with a predetermined preference enabled,
17:13:27 [fielding]: user is at least able to choose whether to make use of those user agents. In contrast, if a user brings their own Web-enabled device to a library or cafe with wireless Internet access, the expectation will be that their chosen user agent and personal preferences regarding Web site behavior will not be altered by the network environment, aside from blanket limitations on what sites can or cannot be accessed through that network.
17:13:59 [npdoty]: q+
17:14:03 [tl]: FINE BY ME
17:14:06 [WileyS]: Like it
17:14:08 [tl]: excuse me: fine by me
17:14:08 [aleecia]: (Rigo?)
17:14:46 [jeffchester2]: Q+Jeff Chester
17:14:48 [ksmith]: +1
17:14:52 [npdoty]: ack npdoty
17:15:03 [rigo]: fine by me, as the HTTP spec allows us to make that assertion and requirement, see tlr's message
17:15:05 [rigo]: q+
17:15:08 [dsriedel]: @ChrisPedigo: you only write the aaoo when you want to identify to zakim
17:15:15 [aleecia]: of note: Jonathan is regrets today
17:15:27 [rigo]: I would rather close this week
17:15:29 [ChrisPedigo]: thanks
17:15:31 [rigo]: q-
17:15:32 [npdoty]: q?
17:15:32 [ChrisPedigo]: aaoo is me
17:15:38 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.a]
17:15:42 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.aa]
17:15:45 [npdoty]: Zakim, aaoo is ChrisPedigo
17:15:45 [Zakim]: +ChrisPedigo; got it
17:15:52 [dsriedel]: with the "zakim, ..."
17:15:53 [andyzei]: andyzei has joined #dnt
17:15:55 [amyc]: amyc has joined #dnt
17:15:55 [dsriedel]: @chris
17:15:59 [fielding]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/78
17:16:16 [npdoty]: q?
17:16:28 [WileyS]: aleecia - I need to leave in 15 mins - apologies for only participating for 30 minutes this week - unmovable conflict.
17:16:39 [dsinger]: ah, so DNT:0 means "generally I am asking for DNT:1, but you are special and I am not asking you"?
17:16:42 [aleecia]: sorry to miss you, Shane
17:16:51 [fielding]: DNT 1 = Do not track me across differently-branded sites and do not use previously tracked/obtained behavioral data from other sites to personalize a response.
17:16:52 [tl]: +q
17:16:56 [WileyS]: +q
17:17:05 [aleecia]: q+
17:17:08 [fielding]: DNT 0 = Use of cross-site tracking and personalization has been specifically permitted for this site, as described in section 6. User-agent-managed site-specific exceptions.
17:17:39 [rigo]: q+
17:17:42 [WileyS]: No DNT response means the site is NOT DNT compliant (either technically or by policy)
17:17:43 [aleecia]: (disagree)
17:17:58 [aleecia]: q?
17:18:03 [ksmith]: q+
17:18:15 [npdoty]: WileyS, I think we're talking about the request header, not the response header
17:18:21 [dsinger]: q?
17:18:23 [npdoty]: ack Jeff
17:18:26 [npdoty]: and ack Chester
17:18:31 [npdoty]: ack Chester
17:19:09 [WileyS]: If there is an empty header (DNT = nothing or no DNT header at all), then DNT is not applicable in that scenario. Existing opt-out cookies should continue to be honored.
17:19:18 [aleecia]: ack tl
17:19:29 [fielding]: let's try to discuss wide-ranging topics at the f2f
17:19:56 [rigo]: I would argue DNT 0 = Use of tracking and personalization has been permitted
17:20:03 [aleecia]: +1
17:20:42 [rigo]: q+
17:20:46 [rigo]: q-
17:21:04 [sidstamm]: +1 for dnt 0 not implying anything about whether it is an exemption or not
17:21:14 [aleecia]: ack WileyS
17:21:23 [johnsimpson]: having trouble understanding the distinction
17:21:24 [npdoty]: can we try to clarify on that issue? I'm not all sure we disagree
17:21:25 [aleecia]: issue-35
17:21:26 [npdoty]: issue-35?
17:21:26 [trackbot]: ISSUE-35 -- How will DNT interact with existing opt-out programs (industry self-reg, other)? -- raised
17:21:26 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/35
17:21:30 [rigo]: remember that we need DNT =0 for recording of consent
17:21:48 [amyc]: amyc has joined #dnt
17:21:48 [WileyS]: Action-35?
17:21:48 [trackbot]: Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
17:22:14 [rigo]: +1 to mts
17:23:01 [aleecia]: ack aleecia
17:23:19 [Zakim]: + +1.508.655.aarr
17:23:27 [sidstamm]: perhaps "dnt 1x" = (the UA considers you exempt, but the user's default preference is 1) … just a thought
17:23:58 [npdoty]: q+
17:24:07 [aleecia]: q?
17:24:20 [rigo]: I think the UA can perfectly handle that
17:24:20 [WileyS]: Agree with Aleecia - we called out DNT=2 to trigger site-specific exceptions
17:24:33 [sidstamm]: aleecia, +1
17:24:36 [aleecia]: ack ksmith
17:24:42 [alex_]: q?
17:24:42 [WileyS]: DNT=0 would be an affirmative choice by a user to either turn off or not activate DNT
17:25:15 [aleecia]: +1 to Shane
17:25:26 [aleecia]: ack npdoty
17:25:33 [tl]: +1
17:25:38 [sidstamm]: and by "off" we mean "tracking is okay" not "user did not specify", right?
17:25:49 [fielding]: If UAs intend to implement a global off, then we should change the definition to allow it -- I thought they were not going to send DNT: 0 when globally off.
17:25:52 [vincent]: did we all agree on "DNT=2" means site-specific exception?
17:25:52 [aleecia]: Sid: yes
17:26:03 [WileyS]: 0 = tracking is okay, <null> = user did not specify
17:26:03 [aleecia]: q+
17:26:12 [tl]: vincent, no
17:26:24 [fielding]: q?
17:26:25 [dsinger]: q+
17:26:29 [fielding]: ack aleecia
17:26:34 [WileyS]: We did not agree on DNT=2 - It's open to discussion
17:26:47 [vincent]: thanks
17:26:52 [rigo]: q+
17:26:55 [sidstamm]: fielding, UAs aren't going to send something unless the user selects it, but users should be able to say "tracking is okay" via DNT: 0
17:27:11 [jeffchester2]: We shouldn't confuse privacy with personalization. There can be personalization and privacy
17:27:14 [aleecia]: ack dsinger
17:27:15 [WileyS]: <null> = user did not make a choice, 0 = user is okay with tracking, 1 = DNT, 2 = Site-Specific Exception, 3 = Web-wide Exception
17:27:32 [aleecia]: "this draft doesn't apply" might not be quite right
17:27:44 [aleecia]: for DNT null
17:27:47 [henryg]: henryg has joined #dnt
17:28:11 [fielding]: ack rigo
17:28:25 [Zakim]: -Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:28:59 [aleecia]: housekeeping:
17:29:01 [aleecia]: next agendum
17:29:07 [aleecia]: next agendum
17:29:17 [aleecia]: grr
17:29:17 [cOlsen]: cOlsen has joined #dnt
17:29:23 [Zakim]: - +1.650.862.aagg
17:29:25 [aleecia]: close agendum 1
17:29:29 [Zakim]: + +1.650.308.aass
17:29:33 [aleecia]: close agendum 2
17:29:56 [Zakim]: + +1.202.326.aatt
17:30:05 [aleecia]: q?
17:30:15 [tl]: +1
17:30:17 [Zakim]: +Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:30:39 [WileyS]: Departing - have fun.
17:30:42 [fielding]: quickly, can we close http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/84
17:31:00 [Zakim]: - +1.202.346.aaff
17:31:20 [aleecia]: 4.2 HTML DOM Interfaces
17:31:21 [tl]: +q
17:31:22 [npdoty]: action-42?
17:31:22 [trackbot]: ACTION-42 -- Jonathan Mayer to proposes non-normative language to obtain DNT info in Javascript; would replace DOM-API -- due 2012-01-11 -- OPEN
17:31:22 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/42
17:31:30 [aleecia]: ack tl
17:32:14 [npdoty]: q+
17:32:18 [sidstamm]: agree with tl
17:32:23 [aleecia]: ack npdoty
17:32:53 [fielding]: tl, we don't have an issue yet for the inline script thing -- can you raise one?
17:33:33 [npdoty]: um, I just suggested that we shouldn't close it as there's an open action on it
17:33:41 [npdoty]: s/it/issue 84/
17:34:02 [aleecia]: agenda?
17:34:24 [fielding]: bummer
17:34:29 [aleecia]: close agendum 4
17:35:19 [tl]: issue: How can we build a JS DOM property which doesn't allow inline JS to receive mixed signals?
17:35:19 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-116 - How can we build a JS DOM property which doesn't allow inline JS to receive mixed signals? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/116/edit .
17:35:56 [amyc]: q+
17:36:10 [aleecia]: ack amyc
17:36:13 [jeffchester2]: Q+ Jeff Chester
17:36:29 [npdoty]: q- Chester
17:36:32 [Zakim]: +??P11
17:36:33 [aleecia]: ack jeff
17:36:45 [laurengelman]: laurengelman has joined #dnt
17:38:26 [Joanne]: q+
17:38:55 [eberkower]: The draft regulation from the EU Parliament will most likely be delayed at least 1 month
17:39:05 [aleecia]: ack joanne
17:39:22 [ninjamarnau]: I also volunteer
17:39:59 [npdoty]: Jeff, Joanne, Ninja all volunteering to help explain the US/EU consequences and non-normative text -- thanks all!
17:40:13 [aleecia]: https://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/22
17:40:25 [aleecia]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-compliance.html
17:40:58 [Zakim]: -[Mozilla]
17:41:09 [rigo]: Nick, I think I can also help with the EU consent expression by DNT
17:41:45 [aleecia]: thanks, Rigo!
17:42:16 [aleecia]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2011Dec/0192.html
17:44:34 [jeffchester2]: Q+
17:44:41 [aleecia]: ack jeffchester
17:44:43 [Zakim]: -Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:44:58 [aleecia]: > Frequency Capping - A form of historical tracking to ensure the number of times a user sees the same ad is kept to a minimum.
17:45:09 [aleecia]: > Financial Logging - Ad impressions and clicks (and sometimes conversions) events are tied to financial transactions (this is how online advertising is billed) and therefore must be collected and stored for billing and auditing purposes.
17:46:22 [Zakim]: +Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:46:44 [npdoty]: q+
17:46:50 [aleecia]: ack npdoty
17:46:56 [aleecia]: (need more sleep)
17:47:49 [fielding]: q+
17:47:49 [aleecia]: so to add to minutes: Jeff's concern is mostly about information use, that data collected for these uses not be mixed
17:48:47 [aleecia]: ack fielding
17:49:11 [aleecia]: Nick's concerns: data collection may be global, not have any limits
17:49:23 [aleecia]: But minimization may help
17:50:32 [aleecia]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Jan/0007.html
17:50:54 [Zakim]: - +385221aapp
17:50:58 [ksmith]: ksmith has left #DNT
17:51:43 [rigo]: q+
17:52:44 [jeffchester2]: I agree
17:52:49 [rigo]: ack me
17:52:58 [JC]: That depends on how closely we define a first party
17:53:07 [fielding]: q+
17:53:12 [aleecia]: discussion of if we need a specific analytics text, or if it's already covered by the idea of contracting to 3rd parties
17:53:40 [aleecia]: Rigo: risk of 3rd parties merging data across sites
17:54:18 [aleecia]: Rigo: partitioning so data is only scoped to a specific 1st party, not in general pool, is well reflected in drafted text
17:54:34 [fielding]: do we have have a separate issue for referral tracking?
17:54:47 [aleecia]: ack fielding
17:55:11 [aleecia]: fielding: cross-site with where people came from and left to, referral related
17:55:21 [jeffchester2]: +q
17:56:05 [amyc]: Roy, wouldn't first party see referral?
17:56:20 [rigo]: yes, so this is a non-issue for me
17:56:50 [laurengelman]: +q
17:57:04 [amyc]: if first party can see, then they are just allowing third party to see what first party can see
17:57:05 [npdoty]: I don't see any separate issue on tracking referrals
17:57:20 [rigo]: come from is easy IMHO, but revealing where they go to may be hard and need the orwell-view on the web
17:57:22 [aleecia]: ack jeffchester
17:57:42 [aleecia]: (rigo, why is that different?)
17:58:02 [amyc]: q+
17:58:04 [npdoty]: I would think there's a difference between tracking Referer: header values vs. otherwise using 3rd-party status to track a user before or after arriving on a particular site
17:58:43 [aleecia]: q?
17:58:52 [tl]: let's just unilaterally modify the http spec to remove referers
17:59:07 [rigo]: aleecia, because the referrer only reports the site you've been to. And the first party will not see where the user has gone to, but always where the user came from
17:59:13 [aleecia]: Jeff: refer may violate x-site tracking
17:59:17 [KevinT]: KevinT has left #dnt
17:59:24 [tlr]: referer is a communication channel between two sites
17:59:41 [vincent]: tl, we discussed that already :)
17:59:44 [tlr]: It can be used to hand unique identifiers between two sites
17:59:53 [rigo]: only if the site after our first party uses the same aggregator/analytics service, you can tell where the user has gone from my first party site
17:59:59 [tlr]: it's just another way for sites to collude.
18:00:01 [fielding]: I meant referral data in general, not just the Referer header field.
18:00:27 [vincent]: rigo, a website could monitor click on "outgoing" links
18:00:36 [rigo]: ah, so the meaning is beyond the actual old http header
18:01:03 [fielding]: tlr, it is also the second largest revenue stream on the Web (after advertising, which itself depends on referral information)
18:01:09 [aleecia]: lauren: analytics not different from other companies; don't need specific analytics text
18:01:15 [Zakim]: - +1.508.655.aarr
18:01:21 [rigo]: vincent, sure, but they can monitor whatever and send to the analytics service if it is under the conditions that David put forward
18:02:17 [rigo]: q+
18:02:26 [rigo]: ack lauren
18:03:04 [aleecia]: ack amyc
18:03:04 [rigo]: ack amy
18:03:42 [npdoty]: fielding, do you want to suggest ISSUE text for referral (beyond Referer headers)?
18:03:53 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.aaa]
18:04:13 [BrianTs]: Zakim, [Microsoft.aaa] has BrianTs
18:04:13 [Zakim]: +BrianTs; got it
18:04:26 [aleecia]: amyc: agree to keep language broad where possible; if 1st party sees referer then why is that an issue for 3rd parties able to see what 1st parties see?
18:04:27 [ChrisPedigo]: q+
18:05:28 [aleecia]: ack rigo
18:06:47 [aleecia]: ack ChrisPedigo
18:07:35 [amyc]: +1
18:08:17 [aleecia]: ChrisPedigo: limits on use for 3rd parties acting on behalf of 1st parties, not consistent across outsourcing and exceptions
18:08:48 [aleecia]: q?
18:08:57 [jeffchester2]: as long as third party cannot use or aggregate, I agree
18:08:58 [laurengelman]: yes, where the third party is doing the data collection/transfer for the 1st party
18:11:14 [npdoty]: what's the separate issue for third-party-as-first?
18:11:32 [npdoty]: issue-49?
18:11:32 [trackbot]: ISSUE-49 -- Third party as first party - is a third party that collects data on behalf of the first party treated the same way as the first party? -- open
18:11:32 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/49
18:11:33 [johnsimpson]: Sounds like the right way to handle and include David's text
18:11:59 [dsinger]: issue-49?
18:11:59 [aleecia]: issue-49?
18:12:00 [trackbot]: ISSUE-49 -- Third party as first party - is a third party that collects data on behalf of the first party treated the same way as the first party? -- open
18:12:00 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/49
18:12:00 [trackbot]: ISSUE-49 -- Third party as first party - is a third party that collects data on behalf of the first party treated the same way as the first party? -- open
18:12:03 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/49
18:12:37 [fielding]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/73
18:12:41 [rigo]: nick, but also means first party collecting data and giving it to third party for further processing. Both are essentially the same
18:12:45 [Zakim]: -dwainberg
18:13:07 [aleecia]: action: aleecia clean up issue-49, issue-22, create new issue on refer
18:13:07 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-45 - Clean up issue-49, issue-22, create new issue on refer [on Aleecia McDonald - due 2012-01-18].
18:14:35 [johnsimpson]: zakim, unmute
18:14:35 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'unmute', johnsimpson
18:14:55 [johnsimpson]: unmute me
18:15:10 [johnsimpson]: zakim, unmute me
18:15:10 [Zakim]: johnsimpson should no longer be muted
18:15:11 [npdoty]: aleecia, I think you were referring to johnsimpson, but it was sean harvey just talking
18:15:19 [aleecia]: sigh
18:15:31 [aleecia]: thanks, Nick
18:15:53 [johnsimpson]: t hat's not john simpson
18:17:01 [jeffchester2]: frequency capping can have privacy implications, if the ad (such as smart ad process) is personalized.
18:17:04 [Zakim]: -ninjamarnau
18:17:35 [JC]: If DNT is enabled the ad should be personalized.
18:17:40 [johnsimpson]: mute me
18:18:00 [npdoty]: Zakim, mute johnsimpson
18:18:00 [Zakim]: johnsimpson should now be muted
18:18:11 [aleecia]: https://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/15
18:18:23 [aleecia]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2011Dec/0199.html
18:18:33 [aleecia]: The DNT:1 header does not require special treatment for children because DNT:1 means
18:18:34 [aleecia]: no tracking regardless of whether the user is a child or not. Note that operator handling of children's
18:18:34 [aleecia]: data may also be governed by local laws and regulations, such as COPPA in US.
18:18:53 [Zakim]: - +1.202.643.aamm
18:19:09 [KevinT]: KevinT has joined #dnt
18:19:24 [JC]: How do you know it is a child without tracking?
18:19:26 [jeffchester2]: q+
18:19:45 [aleecia]: ack jeffchester
18:19:57 [dsinger]: …if you know you have a child in hand, you can do child-specific targeting and advertising.
18:20:13 [aleecia]: Jeff's text: "that even when a DNT signal is not on, a website that knowingly primarily targets a child should assume its DNT:1 unless informed otherwise. Same for sites that specifically primarily target teens." See details of our discussion below.
18:20:22 [dsinger]: …maybe it's better if no-one knows if you are a dog|policeman|child ...
18:20:46 [Zakim]: -??P57
18:21:00 [fielding]: q+
18:21:25 [tl]: +q
18:21:42 [aleecia]: ack fielding
18:21:46 [ChrisPedigo]: US COPPA law doesn't kick in unless you have "actual knowledge" that user is a child
18:22:03 [ChrisPedigo]: doesn't apply broadly to all kid-directed sites
18:22:30 [johnsimpson]: mute me
18:22:34 [efelten]: Doesn't COPPA have a notion of sites that are "directed to children" and therefore covered?
18:22:42 [npdoty]: Zakim, mute johnsimpson
18:22:42 [Zakim]: johnsimpson was already muted, npdoty
18:22:45 [jeffchester2]: Yes, I am saying that cites that specificlaly target kids, they are required to enact DNT, unless requested
18:22:49 [Joanne]: yes to Ed
18:23:12 [tedleung]: q+
18:23:13 [johnsimpson]: thanks, rigo
18:23:14 [aleecia]: ack tl
18:24:19 [fielding]: to be clear, I would personally support such regulation -- it just isn't a W3C issue
18:24:25 [aleecia]: ack tedleung
18:24:47 [amyc]: agree with tom, generic technical spec could be tool to be used by regulators or self-reg such as CARU
18:25:12 [jeffchester2]: +q
18:26:03 [tl]: +1
18:26:03 [andyzei]: +1
18:26:04 [ChrisPedigo]: +1
18:26:05 [amyc]: +1
18:26:09 [dsriedel]: +1
18:26:10 [tedleung]: +1
18:26:11 [jeffchester2]: -1
18:26:13 [Joanne]: +1
18:26:14 [BrianTs]: +1
18:26:17 [dsinger]: -1 (but later)
18:26:19 [npdoty]: -1 (fine with non-normative on best practices)
18:26:24 [KevinT]: -1
18:26:24 [JC]: +1
18:26:25 [punderwood]: punderwood has joined #dnt
18:26:26 [johnsimpson]: -1
18:26:27 [eberkower]: +1
18:26:28 [punderwood]: +1
18:26:29 [fielding]: arch, is that a triple-negative?
18:26:31 [fielding]: +1
18:26:31 [Lia]: +1
18:26:33 [alex_]: +1
18:26:53 [rigo]: +1
18:27:00 [aleecia]: ack jeffchester
18:27:34 [tl]: +q
18:27:44 [aleecia]: ack tl
18:27:53 [ChrisPedigo]: very hard to differentiate between teen and early adult....some would say impossible
18:27:56 [dsinger]: q+ to say that linking population classes to required behavior is a regulatory issue, not ours, I think
18:28:13 [jeffchester2]: I am talking about teen targeted sites only.
18:28:25 [ChrisPedigo]: again very hard
18:28:33 [ChrisPedigo]: tmz.com?
18:28:35 [amyc]: we should have non-normative text to get tl a pony
18:28:44 [tl]: ^_______^
18:29:03 [jeffchester2]: Use comscore's list of what prime target is. that's what we did with our OBA and kids site study
18:29:16 [tl]: fielding, victory is mine! i take the analogy, and get a pony from amyc!
18:29:26 [andyzei]: lol
18:29:30 [amyc]: wait a moment!
18:29:44 [ChrisPedigo]: anecdotally speaking, every teen wants to read what the 22 year olds are reading!
18:30:32 [Zakim]: - +1.202.326.aatt
18:30:33 [Zakim]: -ChrisPedigo
18:30:33 [Zakim]: - +1.650.308.aass
18:30:33 [Zakim]: - +1.415.520.aall
18:30:34 [Zakim]: -efelten
18:30:34 [Zakim]: - +1.408.674.aaaa
18:30:35 [Zakim]: -tedleung
18:30:37 [npdoty]: register: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/49311/brussels-f2f/
18:30:37 [Zakim]: - +1.301.270.aaii
18:30:39 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
18:30:41 [Zakim]: -??P11
18:30:43 [Zakim]: -dsriedel
18:30:44 [KevinT]: KevinT has left #dnt
18:30:45 [Zakim]: -Cyril_Concolato
18:30:47 [Zakim]: -johnsimpson
18:30:49 [Zakim]: -rigo
18:30:51 [Zakim]: -fielding
18:30:53 [Zakim]: - +1.202.637.aann
18:30:55 [Zakim]: -Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:30:57 [Zakim]: -ktrilli
18:30:59 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft.aa]
18:31:01 [Zakim]: -tl
18:31:03 [Zakim]: - +1.813.366.aakk
18:31:03 [johnsimpson]: johnsimpson has left #DNT
18:31:05 [Zakim]: -npdoty
18:31:28 [tedleung]: tedleung has left #dnt
18:31:38 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
18:32:48 [fielding]: rrsagent, bookmark
18:32:48 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-dnt-irc#T18-32-48
18:33:34 [fielding]: zakim, list attendees
18:33:34 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.674.aaaa, +1.609.981.aabb, tl, sidstamm, efelten, npdoty, +1.646.654.aacc, +49.721.913.74.aadd, dsriedel, +1.415.520.aaee,
18:33:37 [Zakim]: ... +1.202.346.aaff, fielding, +1.650.862.aagg, cOlsen, Rigo, +1.202.346.aahh, +1.301.270.aaii, +49.431.98.aajj, +1.813.366.aakk, Cyril_Concolato, ninjamarnau, +1.415.520.aall,
18:33:42 [Zakim]: ... johnsimpson, ktrilli, +1.202.643.aamm, tedleung, Joseph_Scheuhammer, dsinger, +1.202.637.aann, [Microsoft], +1.202.744.aaoo, +385221aapp, +1.646.825.aaqq, WileyS, dwainberg,
18:33:44 [Zakim]: ... ChrisPedigo, +1.508.655.aarr, +1.650.308.aass, +1.202.326.aatt, BrianTs
18:34:15 [Zakim]: - +1.646.654.aacc
18:34:28 [npdoty]: trackbot, end meeting
18:34:28 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
18:34:28 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.674.aaaa, +1.609.981.aabb, tl, sidstamm, efelten, npdoty, +1.646.654.aacc, +49.721.913.74.aadd, dsriedel, +1.415.520.aaee,
18:34:31 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:34:31 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-dnt-minutes.html trackbot
18:34:32 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
18:34:32 [RRSAgent]: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-dnt-actions.rdf :
18:34:32 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: aleecia clean up issue-49, issue-22, create new issue on refer [1]
18:34:32 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-dnt-irc#T18-13-07
18:34:32 [Zakim]: ... +1.202.346.aaff, fielding, +1.650.862.aagg, cOlsen, Rigo, +1.202.346.aahh, +1.301.270.aaii, +49.431.98.aajj, +1.813.366.aakk, Cyril_Concolato, ninjamarnau, +1.415.520.aall,
18:34:36 [Zakim]: ... johnsimpson, ktrilli, +1.202.643.aamm, tedleung, Joseph_Scheuhammer, dsinger, +1.202.637.aann, [Microsoft], +1.202.744.aaoo, +385221aapp, +1.646.825.aaqq, WileyS, dwainberg,