14:59:31 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 14:59:31 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/05-xproc-irc 14:59:34 Meeting: XML Processing Model WG 14:59:34 Date: 5 January 2012 14:59:34 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/01/05-agenda 14:59:34 Meeting: 205 14:59:34 Chair: Norm 14:59:36 Scribe: Norm 14:59:38 ScribeNick: Norm 14:59:40 zakim, this will be xproc 14:59:41 ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute 14:59:57 XML_PMWG()10:00AM has now started 15:00:05 +[IPcaller] 15:00:15 zakim, passcode? 15:00:15 the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Norm 15:00:23 Vojtech has joined #xproc 15:00:24 +Norm 15:00:34 zakim, ipcaller is jfuller 15:00:36 +jfuller; got it 15:00:36 + +1.805.452.aaaa 15:00:36 +??P25 15:00:48 zakim, who's here? 15:00:48 On the phone I see jfuller, Norm, +1.805.452.aaaa, ??P25 15:00:49 On IRC I see Vojtech, RRSAgent, Zakim, Norm, jfuller, ht, Liam, caribou 15:01:02 zakim, aaaa is Cornelia 15:01:07 zakim, who's here? 15:01:09 +Cornelia; got it 15:01:15 On the phone I see jfuller, Norm, Cornelia, ht 15:01:26 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 15:01:29 On IRC I see Vojtech, RRSAgent, Zakim, Norm, jfuller, ht, Liam, caribou 15:02:07 +Jeroen 15:02:17 zakim, jeroen is me 15:02:24 zakim, who's here? 15:02:49 +Vojtech; got it 15:02:55 Present: Norm, Jim, Henry, Cornelia, Vojtech 15:02:57 On the phone I see jfuller, Norm, Cornelia, ht, Vojtech 15:02:57 Regrets: Paul 15:03:19 Present: Norm, Jim, Henry, Cornelia, Vojtech, Alex 15:03:23 On IRC I see alexmilowski, Vojtech, RRSAgent, Zakim, Norm, jfuller, ht, Liam, caribou 15:03:35 +Alex_Milows 15:04:02 Topic: Accept this agenda? 15:04:03 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/01/05-agenda 15:04:05 Accepted. 15:04:14 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting? 15:04:14 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2011/12/15-minutes.html 15:04:17 Accepted. 15:04:30 Topic: Next meeting: telcon, 12 January 2012. 15:04:40 No regrets heard. 15:04:59 Topic: Review of XML processor profiles 15:05:53 Norm summarizes. Questions about the diagram? 15:06:32 Jim: Vojtech suggested a small circle to represent XInclude in Full Profile. 15:06:44 Henry: I have reservations, could we see it first? 15:07:20 Norm: Any other questions or concerns before we publish? 15:07:23 None heard. 15:07:42 Norm: Here's what I propose: we agree to publish this as a new LC draft with an email decision this week on the diagram. 15:08:12 +1 to that 15:08:38 Norm: I propose a publication date of XXX next week, where XXX is whatever day of the week the team likes to publish on 15:09:11 cornelia has joined #xproc 15:09:44 Norm: Let's see, LC drafts need to have a comment period. How long do we need? 15:10:06 Some discussion of the selection of colors for the diagram wrt various forms of color restricted vision. 15:11:45 Norm proposes 17 Febuary for the close of the LC comment period. 15:12:13 Norm: Any objections to publishing a new LC with a last call period ending on 17 February. 15:13:09 ...Modulo details about the diagram. 15:13:25 No objections heard. 15:13:33 RESOLVED: Publish new LC next week with LC period ending 17 Feburary. 15:17:49 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/proc-profiles-test.svg 15:21:18 Discussion of the diagram 15:23:27 sending u a new diagram 15:30:32 Norm: Ok, I propose we use the new diagram, with a small editorial edition to the spec that describes what the inner purple circle means. 15:31:11 No objections heard. 15:31:13 Accepted. 15:31:46 Topic: XProc V.next discussions 15:31:51 Norm summarizes. 15:34:54 Norm: I tried to start a resource mgr discussion, but I like Vojtech's solution. 15:34:56 Henry: I don't 15:35:05 ...What about the race condition? 15:35:22 Norm: We add a depends-on attribute to resolve that 15:35:27 Henry: Boy, I don't want to go there. 15:35:48 Henry: I want the resource manager to handle something like the XQuery consistency constraint. 15:35:59 ...Storing into the resource manager should be a distinct operation. 15:37:35 Norm: I think we've gone all the way around the house and got back to where we started. 15:37:37 Henry: Yeah. 15:38:36 ...Is it obvious in the case that we're looking at [Vojtech's mail]...when I turn on that extension. Does it also do a PUT or not? 15:39:02 Vojtech: My idea in this case is that it wouldn't really store it, it just updates the resource manager cache. 15:40:41 Henry: Then the synchronization becomes a little easier. One way to do this is to use our own URI scheme. 15:41:32 Norm: I don't think that works, we want to tinker with URIs in existing documents. 15:42:27 Henry: Then you want an XML Catalog 15:42:36 Norm: No, because I don't necessarily know statically, in advance, what the URIs are. 15:42:51 Henry: We ought to be able to have a compound step which is "with catalog". 15:43:23 Vojtech: It could also be an attribute on steps that indicates if the output should be cached. 15:43:51 Henry: The idea is that there should be a general step that allows you to intercept GETs... 15:44:21 Alex: In 1.0 we have a statement about the (lack of) doc function consistency. 15:44:44 ...I want to able to say "in this part of my pipeline, I want consistency" 15:44:54 ...There are other issues about catalogs, side effect control, etc. 15:45:00 ...They probably all interplay in some way. 15:45:33 Henry: I think we should adopt the XQuery rule. 15:46:02 Alex: It's not that quite that cut and dry. You need to be able to specify different consistency constraints in different parts of the pipeline. 15:46:33 Norm: Those two rules are directly contradictory. 15:47:34 Henry: Here's a back of an envelope design: 15:48:09 ...We start with the story that the XQuery story holds. The first retrieval establishes a binding between a URI and a document and that binding is consistent/stable for the duration of the pipeline. 15:48:59 ...We also have a lexically scoped URI binding mechanism. 15:50:16 ...We want to avoid race conditions, so whatever we do we need to make statically scoped. It seems like it would be possible to use the notion of a "with-uri-bindings" compound step to not only allow you to map from one URI to another but also to require a refetch. 15:50:37 ...To say that the story about consistency is reset and everyone within this scope has to do it all again. 15:51:47 Norm: I'm intrigued by the idea of having a catalog that applies for the duration of a compound step. 15:52:01 Henry: I want to keep caching and writing separate. 15:52:30 Alex: If you're binding in your catalog, then we have the feature of the ability to have URI named results, that are accessible by URI then your catalog does what you want. 15:53:17 Norm: If we said taht cache:uri retrieved "uri" from the cache, then we could do it. 15:53:25 s/taht/that/ 15:53:41 ...It's not clear to me that it's practical to construct such a catalog dynamically in all cases. 15:53:46 Alex; I think there are two issues. 15:53:51 ...Catalogs map things to URIs. 15:54:02 ...Then external to that, then you have the ability to say that these results have this name. 15:54:13 ...Then you can have a catalog somewhere that points to an intermediary result. 15:55:37 Vojtech: We already say something about changing documents. 15:56:18 ...In the valdation steps, for example, we say that documents passed to the step are used in favor of external documents with the same URIs. 15:56:28 ...We need to make sure that these features interact well under these cases too. 15:57:13 Norm: I feel good about the progress we made. Exploring an explicit cache step and explicit catalog scoping seems like a good combination. 15:57:29 Norm: Any closing thoughts before we run out of time. 15:57:40 Topic: Any other business 15:57:59 Norm: I would really appreciate any suggestions for how to strcutre the agendas to make progress on V.enxt 15:58:06 s/strcutre/structure/ 15:58:10 s/V.enxt/V.next/ 15:58:22 Jim: I think we need some principles to guide us on V.next. 15:58:40 ...With an eye towards adoption and prioritizing in favor of outstanding user requests. 15:58:48 ...And we should ask ourselves what type of V.next we're talking about. 15:58:54 ...I would naturally think of it from a time point of view. 15:59:21 ...If we say that V.next is 50% fixing what is broken and 50% usability, then that would be a useful thing to guide our discussions. 15:59:40 cornelia has joined #xproc 16:01:24 Jim: And what about backwards-compatibility? 16:01:34 -Cornelia 16:01:51 Adjourned. 16:01:59 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 16:02:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:02:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/05-xproc-minutes.html Norm 16:02:06 -Alex_Milows 16:02:10 -Norm 16:02:12 -Vojtech 16:02:14 -jfuller 16:03:06 -ht 16:03:12 XML_PMWG()10:00AM has ended 16:03:14 Attendees were Norm, jfuller, +1.805.452.aaaa, ht, Cornelia, Vojtech, Alex_Milows 17:15:03 Zakim has left #xproc 19:08:06 ht has joined #xproc 20:39:43 Norm has joined #xproc 20:45:50 Norm has joined #xproc 20:47:06 Norm has joined #xproc