IRC log of xproc on 2012-01-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:31 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:59:34 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
14:59:34 [Norm]
Date: 5 January 2012
14:59:34 [Norm]
14:59:34 [Norm]
Meeting: 205
14:59:34 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
14:59:36 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
14:59:38 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
14:59:40 [Norm]
zakim, this will be xproc
14:59:41 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:57 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()10:00AM has now started
15:00:05 [Zakim]
15:00:15 [Norm]
zakim, passcode?
15:00:15 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, Norm
15:00:23 [Vojtech]
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15:00:34 [Norm]
zakim, ipcaller is jfuller
15:00:36 [Zakim]
+jfuller; got it
15:00:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.805.452.aaaa
15:00:36 [Zakim]
15:00:48 [Norm]
zakim, who's here?
15:00:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jfuller, Norm, +1.805.452.aaaa, ??P25
15:00:49 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Vojtech, RRSAgent, Zakim, Norm, jfuller, ht, Liam, caribou
15:01:02 [Norm]
zakim, aaaa is Cornelia
15:01:07 [Norm]
zakim, who's here?
15:01:09 [Zakim]
+Cornelia; got it
15:01:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jfuller, Norm, Cornelia, ht
15:01:26 [alexmilowski]
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15:01:29 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Vojtech, RRSAgent, Zakim, Norm, jfuller, ht, Liam, caribou
15:02:07 [Zakim]
15:02:17 [Vojtech]
zakim, jeroen is me
15:02:24 [Norm]
zakim, who's here?
15:02:49 [Zakim]
+Vojtech; got it
15:02:55 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Jim, Henry, Cornelia, Vojtech
15:02:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jfuller, Norm, Cornelia, ht, Vojtech
15:02:57 [Norm]
Regrets: Paul
15:03:19 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Jim, Henry, Cornelia, Vojtech, Alex
15:03:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alexmilowski, Vojtech, RRSAgent, Zakim, Norm, jfuller, ht, Liam, caribou
15:03:35 [Zakim]
15:04:02 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:04:03 [Norm]
15:04:05 [Norm]
15:04:14 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:04:14 [Norm]
15:04:17 [Norm]
15:04:30 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon, 12 January 2012.
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No regrets heard.
15:04:59 [Norm]
Topic: Review of XML processor profiles
15:05:53 [Norm]
Norm summarizes. Questions about the diagram?
15:06:32 [Norm]
Jim: Vojtech suggested a small circle to represent XInclude in Full Profile.
15:06:44 [Norm]
Henry: I have reservations, could we see it first?
15:07:20 [Norm]
Norm: Any other questions or concerns before we publish?
15:07:23 [Norm]
None heard.
15:07:42 [Norm]
Norm: Here's what I propose: we agree to publish this as a new LC draft with an email decision this week on the diagram.
15:08:12 [jfuller]
+1 to that
15:08:38 [Norm]
Norm: I propose a publication date of XXX next week, where XXX is whatever day of the week the team likes to publish on
15:09:11 [cornelia]
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15:09:44 [Norm]
Norm: Let's see, LC drafts need to have a comment period. How long do we need?
15:10:06 [Norm]
Some discussion of the selection of colors for the diagram wrt various forms of color restricted vision.
15:11:45 [Norm]
Norm proposes 17 Febuary for the close of the LC comment period.
15:12:13 [Norm]
Norm: Any objections to publishing a new LC with a last call period ending on 17 February.
15:13:09 [Norm]
...Modulo details about the diagram.
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No objections heard.
15:13:33 [Norm]
RESOLVED: Publish new LC next week with LC period ending 17 Feburary.
15:17:49 [Norm]
15:21:18 [Norm]
Discussion of the diagram
15:23:27 [jfuller]
sending u a new diagram
15:30:32 [Norm]
Norm: Ok, I propose we use the new diagram, with a small editorial edition to the spec that describes what the inner purple circle means.
15:31:11 [Norm]
No objections heard.
15:31:13 [Norm]
15:31:46 [Norm]
Topic: XProc discussions
15:31:51 [Norm]
Norm summarizes.
15:34:54 [Norm]
Norm: I tried to start a resource mgr discussion, but I like Vojtech's solution.
15:34:56 [Norm]
Henry: I don't
15:35:05 [Norm]
...What about the race condition?
15:35:22 [Norm]
Norm: We add a depends-on attribute to resolve that
15:35:27 [Norm]
Henry: Boy, I don't want to go there.
15:35:48 [Norm]
Henry: I want the resource manager to handle something like the XQuery consistency constraint.
15:35:59 [Norm]
...Storing into the resource manager should be a distinct operation.
15:37:35 [Norm]
Norm: I think we've gone all the way around the house and got back to where we started.
15:37:37 [Norm]
Henry: Yeah.
15:38:36 [Norm]
...Is it obvious in the case that we're looking at [Vojtech's mail]...when I turn on that extension. Does it also do a PUT or not?
15:39:02 [Norm]
Vojtech: My idea in this case is that it wouldn't really store it, it just updates the resource manager cache.
15:40:41 [Norm]
Henry: Then the synchronization becomes a little easier. One way to do this is to use our own URI scheme.
15:41:32 [Norm]
Norm: I don't think that works, we want to tinker with URIs in existing documents.
15:42:27 [Norm]
Henry: Then you want an XML Catalog
15:42:36 [Norm]
Norm: No, because I don't necessarily know statically, in advance, what the URIs are.
15:42:51 [Norm]
Henry: We ought to be able to have a compound step which is "with catalog".
15:43:23 [Norm]
Vojtech: It could also be an attribute on steps that indicates if the output should be cached.
15:43:51 [Norm]
Henry: The idea is that there should be a general step that allows you to intercept GETs...
15:44:21 [Norm]
Alex: In 1.0 we have a statement about the (lack of) doc function consistency.
15:44:44 [Norm]
...I want to able to say "in this part of my pipeline, I want consistency"
15:44:54 [Norm]
...There are other issues about catalogs, side effect control, etc.
15:45:00 [Norm]
...They probably all interplay in some way.
15:45:33 [Norm]
Henry: I think we should adopt the XQuery rule.
15:46:02 [Norm]
Alex: It's not that quite that cut and dry. You need to be able to specify different consistency constraints in different parts of the pipeline.
15:46:33 [Norm]
Norm: Those two rules are directly contradictory.
15:47:34 [Norm]
Henry: Here's a back of an envelope design:
15:48:09 [Norm]
...We start with the story that the XQuery story holds. The first retrieval establishes a binding between a URI and a document and that binding is consistent/stable for the duration of the pipeline.
15:48:59 [Norm]
...We also have a lexically scoped URI binding mechanism.
15:50:16 [Norm]
...We want to avoid race conditions, so whatever we do we need to make statically scoped. It seems like it would be possible to use the notion of a "with-uri-bindings" compound step to not only allow you to map from one URI to another but also to require a refetch.
15:50:37 [Norm]
...To say that the story about consistency is reset and everyone within this scope has to do it all again.
15:51:47 [Norm]
Norm: I'm intrigued by the idea of having a catalog that applies for the duration of a compound step.
15:52:01 [Norm]
Henry: I want to keep caching and writing separate.
15:52:30 [Norm]
Alex: If you're binding in your catalog, then we have the feature of the ability to have URI named results, that are accessible by URI then your catalog does what you want.
15:53:17 [Norm]
Norm: If we said taht cache:uri retrieved "uri" from the cache, then we could do it.
15:53:25 [Norm]
15:53:41 [Norm]
...It's not clear to me that it's practical to construct such a catalog dynamically in all cases.
15:53:46 [Norm]
Alex; I think there are two issues.
15:53:51 [Norm]
...Catalogs map things to URIs.
15:54:02 [Norm]
...Then external to that, then you have the ability to say that these results have this name.
15:54:13 [Norm]
...Then you can have a catalog somewhere that points to an intermediary result.
15:55:37 [Norm]
Vojtech: We already say something about changing documents.
15:56:18 [Norm]
...In the valdation steps, for example, we say that documents passed to the step are used in favor of external documents with the same URIs.
15:56:28 [Norm]
...We need to make sure that these features interact well under these cases too.
15:57:13 [Norm]
Norm: I feel good about the progress we made. Exploring an explicit cache step and explicit catalog scoping seems like a good combination.
15:57:29 [Norm]
Norm: Any closing thoughts before we run out of time.
15:57:40 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business
15:57:59 [Norm]
Norm: I would really appreciate any suggestions for how to strcutre the agendas to make progress on V.enxt
15:58:06 [Norm]
15:58:10 [Norm]
15:58:22 [Norm]
Jim: I think we need some principles to guide us on
15:58:40 [Norm]
...With an eye towards adoption and prioritizing in favor of outstanding user requests.
15:58:48 [Norm]
...And we should ask ourselves what type of we're talking about.
15:58:54 [Norm]
...I would naturally think of it from a time point of view.
15:59:21 [Norm]
...If we say that is 50% fixing what is broken and 50% usability, then that would be a useful thing to guide our discussions.
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16:01:24 [Norm]
Jim: And what about backwards-compatibility?
16:01:34 [Zakim]
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16:01:59 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
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rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate Norm
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XML_PMWG()10:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Norm, jfuller, +1.805.452.aaaa, ht, Cornelia, Vojtech, Alex_Milows
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