15:38:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
15:38:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/05-prov-irc
15:38:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:38:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
15:38:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
15:38:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:38:21 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
15:38:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:38:22 <trackbot> Date: 05 January 2012
15:38:22 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 22 minutes
15:38:36 <GK1> GK1 has joined #prov
15:38:38 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05
15:39:00 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
15:39:02 <Luc> Scribe: ???
15:39:20 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 
15:50:26 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
15:53:38 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
15:53:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:54:01 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:54:01 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
15:55:28 <Zakim> +??P56
15:55:55 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
15:55:59 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aaaa
15:56:12 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me
15:56:12 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
15:56:17 <GK> GK has joined #prov
15:56:23 <Zakim> +??P58
15:56:35 <Paolo> zakim, ??P58 is me
15:56:35 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
15:57:00 <Luc> Regrets: Stain
15:57:57 <Zakim> +??P7
15:58:17 <GK> zakim, ??p7 is me
15:58:19 <Zakim> +GK; got it
15:58:46 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
15:59:01 <Luc> scribe: GK
16:00:48 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
16:01:41 <Luc> topic: admin
16:02:22 <Zakim> +??P9
16:02:23 <GK> Previous minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-12-22
16:02:28 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:02:30 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P9 is me
16:02:33 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:02:35 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:02:38 <Zakim> +??P11
16:02:39 <JimMcCusker> JimMcCusker has joined #prov
16:02:48 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aabb
16:02:50 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
16:02:52 <Zakim> +sandro
16:02:56 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
16:02:58 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:03:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:03:01 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:03:02 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
16:03:09 <Luc> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Dec. 22 telecon
16:03:19 <GK> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-12-22
16:03:20 <Zakim> +??P29
16:03:28 <Paolo> +1
16:03:32 <tlebo> +1
16:03:32 <dgarijo> +1
16:03:33 <GK> +0 (not present)
16:03:36 <smiles> 0 (absent)
16:04:00 <JimMcCusker> 0 ( absent)
16:04:13 <Luc> APPROVED:  the minutes of the Dec. 22 telecon
16:04:17 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
16:04:30 <Zakim> +??P33
16:04:37 <jcheney> zakim, ??p33 is me
16:04:37 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
16:04:41 <GK> Topic: Disseminating Working Drafts
16:05:22 <Luc> q?
16:05:28 <pgroth> q+
16:05:45 <Luc> ack pgr
16:06:10 <GK> Paul: suggest writing up blog post describing how documents sit together...
16:06:34 <smiles> q+
16:06:48 <Luc> ack smi
16:06:49 <GK> Luc: This could be used as initial draft for document of WG deliverables
16:06:53 <Zakim> +Yolanda
16:06:59 <Zakim> +??P40
16:07:14 <GK> Simon: useful for linking to when posting to other mailing lists to solicit feedback.
16:07:41 <GK> ... also useful would be standard few lines that can be referenced.
16:07:56 <GK> ... and direct readers to blog post.
16:08:02 <Luc> q?
16:08:11 <GK> Paul: will write this as abstract to blog.
16:08:24 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
16:08:29 <Luc> action: pgroth to write blog overviewing prov-wg documents
16:08:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-50 - Write blog overviewing prov-wg documents [on Paul Groth - due 2012-01-12].
16:08:51 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aacc
16:09:08 <tlebo> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:09:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P56, Luc, Paolo, GK, khalidbelhajjame, MacTed (muted), ??P11, +1.315.330.aabb, sandro, [IPcaller], ??P29, jcheney, Yolanda, ??P40, +1.518.633.aacc
16:09:17 <tlebo> zakim, I am aabb
16:09:17 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
16:09:39 <dgarijo> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:09:39 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
16:09:44 <GK> Luc: description of difference between 1st and 3rd PROV-DM drafts would be helpful, maybe?
16:10:00 <Luc> action: Luc to write blog explaining diffs between prov-dm wd3 and wd1
16:10:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-51 - Write blog explaining diffs between prov-dm wd3 and wd1 [on Luc Moreau - due 2012-01-12].
16:10:05 <GK> Paul: suggest Paul does overview, and Luc does difference sum,mary later
16:10:21 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov
16:10:26 <GK> Luc: Has connection TF lined up reviewers?
16:10:32 <JimMcCusker> +q
16:10:40 <Luc> ack Jim
16:11:01 <GK> JimMc: Either Satya or I should engaged OBO(?) community
16:11:11 <Paolo> q+
16:11:21 <Luc> ack paolo
16:11:24 <GK> ... OBO = Open Bio Ontologies
16:11:45 <GK> Paolo: meeting on provenance ... (missed details)
16:11:51 <JimMcCusker> http://obofoundry.org/
16:11:56 <tlebo> @paolo, what meeting?
16:12:06 <satya> satya has joined #prov
16:12:25 <GK> meeting is Dagshtul seminar at end february
16:12:50 <pgroth> I thought I replied james?
16:12:56 <pgroth> anyway, offline :-)
16:13:03 <Luc> you did, and I did too ;-)
16:13:18 <pgroth> +q
16:13:19 <GK> jcheney: still planning schedule for meeting.
16:13:51 <GK> Luc: I was focusing on dissemination in short term - next couple of weeks.
16:14:11 <pgroth> +1
16:14:22 <Paolo> Q?
16:14:34 <GK> Luc: can we repeat blog exercise similar to Paul's simple example?  Any takers?
16:14:53 <Luc> q?
16:14:57 <GK> ... more small examples to promote use and purpose of prov-o
16:15:11 <Luc> q?
16:15:23 <Luc> ack pg
16:15:50 <GK> Paul: we have public provenance mailing list - can we get more people to subscribe?
16:15:55 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aadd
16:16:05 <tlebo> q+ to ask if we should/can make an announce list?
16:16:24 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aadd
16:16:29 <pgroth> that's this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-comments/
16:16:55 <GK> Tim: can we have an announcement list
16:17:10 <GK> ??:  agree, and also a developers list?
16:17:28 <tlebo> zednik ^^
16:18:40 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaee
16:18:56 <GK> Sandro: have WG, public and dev as common pattern (?).  Sometimes, dev list is pretty much unused.
16:19:36 <sandro> checking ----    public-prov@w3.org exists.    (and prov-wg and prog-comments)
16:19:36 <dgarijo> +1 to that, although we started already with the best practices..
16:19:48 <GK> Luc: back to asking the prov-o team about blogging examples
16:20:59 <GK> me: blogs also work as web pages which are easily linked to, tweeted, etc.
16:21:03 <satya> Paul, +1
16:21:26 <GK> Luc: asks sandro if we can create an announce mailing list
16:21:55 <GK> Sandro: we can, but recommend against unless other public list gets too busy. 
16:22:11 <pgroth> +q
16:22:31 <pgroth> ack pgroth
16:22:49 <tlebo> +1 public-prov
16:22:49 <GK> Sandro: public-prov (not public-prov-wg) could be used for announcements
16:22:58 <tlebo> (didn't realize we dump onto public-prov-wg)
16:23:12 <GK> Luc: can we also have a developer mailing list?
16:24:07 <satya> q+
16:24:19 <GK> Sandro: I'll create a dev list very soon
16:24:24 <tlebo> I'll consider blogging
16:24:27 <Luc> ack tle
16:24:27 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to ask if we should/can make an announce list?
16:24:28 <tlebo> q-
16:24:35 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aaee
16:24:46 <GK> tlebo: I'll consider blogging, would prefer to focus on documents
16:24:52 <Luc> ack sat
16:24:59 <sandro> q+
16:25:33 <JimMcCusker> +q
16:25:36 <satya> sorry lost audio
16:26:05 <Luc> ack san
16:26:24 <GK> sandro: public-prov-dev, anyone can post, or only subscribers?
16:26:35 <Luc> ack jim
16:26:44 <GK> GK: if spam not a problem, suggest open
16:27:09 <GK> Sandro: I'll make it open.  List now exists.
16:27:13 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-dev/ created
16:27:19 <dgarijo> so I guess this is the list where we'll move our prov-o discussions.
16:27:32 <GK> Topic: Plan for Second Working Drafts (continued)
16:28:31 <GK> Simon: primer - 1st PWD should be out soon. Hopefully next week.
16:28:44 <GK> ... need to ensure compatibility with other documents.
16:29:02 <GK> ... aim to have improved version by F2F meeting
16:29:22 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaff
16:29:34 <GK> ... longer term, next release 6 months with everything up to date, and better content quality 
16:30:05 <GK> ... accessible to wide audience, libraries, bloggers, semantic web, etc. can use to get started
16:30:42 <GK> ... be clear what prov-dm means ontologically, how to integrate domain specific with prov-dm
16:31:31 <Luc> Can you confirm 6 months? See http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/groups.html#three-month-rule
16:31:35 <Luc> q?
16:31:39 <GK> Yolanda: have lots of comments about assertions and derivations: need to make distinction clear in primer.
16:32:27 <Luc> q?
16:32:32 <GK> GK: how do assertions and derivations get captured in RDF?  I don't see it.
16:33:07 <Luc> q?
16:33:19 <GK> Yolanda: need to explain what is meant by these terms on documents.
16:33:21 <satya> @Simon, prov-o describes what prov-dm means ontologically - did you mean something in addition to prov-o?
16:33:51 <GK> Luc: 6 months is a long time to next release.
16:34:20 <GK> ... also W3C has "3 month rule" for updates to active documents.
16:34:52 <GK> Simon: our long term aims were on a 6 month period, but we can make interime releases.
16:35:18 <sandro> three month rule, fyi: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/groups#three-month-rule
16:35:26 <GK> Luc: could you please identify (offline) date for next working draft?
16:35:27 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aaff
16:35:39 <GK> Simon: OK.  Maybe March/April?
16:35:57 <Luc> q?
16:36:12 <GK> Luc: Prov-O - what are your plans?
16:36:20 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aagg
16:36:46 <GK> Khalid: need to align prov-o with current prov-dm, other topics not yet considered...
16:37:02 <GK> ... also have not determined next release date
16:37:33 <GK> ... Stephan will try to identify potential users from those identified by connections TF
16:37:53 <GK> Luc: can you please come back with a planned release date.
16:37:56 <Luc> q?
16:37:59 <dgarijo> we finished half of the list, so hopefully in a couple of telecons we're done with the alignement.
16:38:09 <Zakim> -Yolanda
16:38:23 <tlebo> satya
16:38:24 <pgroth> can't hear you satya
16:38:26 <dgarijo> @GK Satya
16:38:47 <pgroth> now
16:38:51 <khalidbelhajjame> we can hear you now
16:39:01 <Luc> the three month rule: a new draft of each active technical report at least once every three months
16:39:03 <Paolo> @GK satya
16:39:28 <satya> We plan to release next pwd by Feb - given the three month rule
16:40:07 <satya> and a major update before 2nd F2F
16:40:27 <GK> Luc: apart from 3 month rule, would be nice to have stable document by F2F meeting.
16:40:40 <GK> ... doesn't need to be formally released.
16:40:57 <Luc> q?
16:40:58 <GK> Khalid: should be fairly closely aligned by F2F meeting
16:41:08 <satya> we can discuss this during our call also next Monday
16:41:13 <GK> Topic: prov-dm
16:41:17 <satya> sure, I was planning to initiate release process by end of Jan/first week of Feb
16:41:20 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aagg
16:41:39 <Luc> @satya, it looks good
16:41:39 <GK> Paolo: "complemetOf" issue is reaching convergence.
16:41:47 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#record-complement-of
16:41:58 <GK> New next is (at link above)
16:42:29 <GK> q+ to say I still need to review the actual text, but agree with the direction of discussions
16:43:07 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aahh
16:43:08 <GK> ThPaolo: the term "compelentOf" is still used, we need to formally agree new terms
16:43:34 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#record-Collection
16:43:45 <GK> paolo: collections, has been substantially simplified
16:44:13 <GK> ... have long response from Stian to work though, but we do seem to be converging
16:44:27 <GK> ... hope to finish this successfully (in next week?)
16:44:49 <tlebo> +q to ask about global versus local naming in "complementOf" section and rest of document.
16:45:03 <GK> ... issue about whether collections actually belong - discussion on list, along with discussion of what is domain specific.
16:45:48 <tlebo> +1 to how the new specializationOf section looks
16:46:06 <Luc> q?
16:46:08 <Luc> ack gk
16:46:08 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I still need to review the actual text, but agree with the direction of discussions
16:46:26 <GK> Tim: specialization section looks great
16:46:46 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aahh
16:46:46 <GK> ... have problem with distinction between global and local naming
16:47:15 <GK> ... think this is "very dissonant" (something that needs to be discussed?)
16:47:33 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaii
16:47:45 <GK> Luc: there is a specific issue addressing this.
16:49:08 <tlebo> q-
16:49:45 <GK> Luc: about vote about new terminology; granularity is too coarse (?)
16:50:17 <Luc> q?
16:50:26 <GK> q+ to ask why can't vote on the text as-is, or alternatively vote on choice of terminology, or...
16:50:38 <pgroth>  q+
16:50:48 <satya> +1, I think we need to discuss over raised issue first
16:50:49 <tlebo> I'm happy to close any issues that I've raised for complementOf
16:50:50 <Luc> ack gk
16:50:50 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask why can't vote on the text as-is, or alternatively vote on choice of terminology, or...
16:50:59 <JimMcCusker> +q
16:51:30 <Luc> ack pgr
16:51:39 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aaii
16:51:47 <pgroth> ack pgroth
16:51:49 <GK> GK: only need to vote if there is disagreement
16:52:04 <GK> paul: issue system seems to work well
16:52:56 <GK> jimMc: issue of one entity record for each identifier.  And if identifier is URI, can't enforce scoping of interpretation.
16:53:00 <Luc> q?
16:53:03 <Luc> ack jim
16:53:22 <GK> Topic: Prov-o/Prov-dm
16:53:48 <Luc> closing issues Closed pending review: ISSUE-50: Satya ISSUE-57: Graham ISSUE-100: Satya ISSUE-105: Satya ISSUE-113: Khalid ISSUE-121: Satya ISSUE-124: Satya ISSUE-125: Satya ISSUE-126: Satya ISSUE-127: Satya ISSUE-176: Tim ISSUE-178: Tim ISSUE-191: Satya ISSUE-201: Satya To be answered: ISSUE-185: Satya ISSUE-186: Satya ISSUE-187: Satya ISSUE-188: Satya ISSUE-189: Satya ISSUE-192: Satya ISSUE-193: Satya ISSUE-200: Satya [edit]
16:53:54 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aajj
16:54:02 <GK> Luc: aiming for release by end of month
16:54:04 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05#prov-dm
16:54:13 <GK> Topic: prov-dm (still - closing issues)
16:54:26 <satya> @jimMc, +1
16:55:09 <Luc> q?
16:55:20 <tlebo> +1 I'll review my issues
16:55:21 <GK> Luc: need people to raised issues to respond to confirm issues can be closed.  Would be better to close old issues and open new ones.
16:55:25 <satya> @Luc, sure will try to review and respond asap the outstanding issues
16:56:17 <GK> GK: happy to close issue 57, will raise new if I have problem with new text 
16:56:32 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_graphs_to_model_Accounts
16:56:40 <GK> Topic: Prov-o/Prov-dm
16:56:51 <GK> Discussion of accounts
16:58:11 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aajj
16:58:20 <GK> Tim: proposing that account assertions are "RDF abstract graph" - set of triples independent of location.  Tryimng to core construct of activity to associate asserter with account graph.  Then addressing association of abstract graph with where it rests.
16:59:24 <GK> ... triple store organization of named graphs is "chaotic" - can re-use service description vocabulary.
16:59:47 <GK> q+ 
16:59:56 <pgroth> q+
16:59:59 <Luc> ack GK
17:00:07 <dgarijo> q+
17:00:59 <Luc> ack pg
17:01:38 <GK> GK: my comments (on list) really reeferring to *assertion* of an account, rather than problem of account being an "abstract graph".
17:01:41 <pgroth> ack pgroth
17:02:08 <GK> Paul: qustion about tuyping of graph (missed details of response) 
17:02:20 <tlebo> +1 to confusion over Activyt versus Entity - partiatlly b/c I'm not sure yet :-)
17:02:32 <GK> Daniel: account as activity or entity?  Gets confusing.
17:03:00 <GK> ... distinguishes between account as wrapper, and activity that creates that wrapper.
17:03:27 <Luc> q?
17:03:31 <Luc> ack dga
17:04:14 <GK> Tim: yes, there is some confusion, indecision yet.  Details still to be worked out (wasAtributedTo property mentioned?)
17:04:48 <GK> Tim: still want to quality association with some activity (e.g. similar to derivedfrom?)
17:04:57 <Luc> q?
17:05:48 <GK> Luc: have raised issue of mixing accounts and entities.
17:05:54 <dgarijo> @Tim: anyway, this is the kind of discussion we needed to make this work. Thanks!
17:06:53 <GK> q+
17:07:29 <GK> q+ to ask about what "abstract graph" is used to mean
17:07:44 <Luc> ack gk
17:07:44 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask about what "abstract graph" is used to mean
17:07:55 <Zakim> -??P29
17:08:01 <Luc> q?
17:08:45 <GK> Tim: terms we have are graph container, RDF abstract graph, and ...
17:09:21 <Luc> q?
17:09:34 <GK> SPARQL service description associates a graph with a name
17:09:53 <Luc> q?
17:10:17 <GK> (sorry, my audio got interrupted)
17:10:46 <pgroth> thanks tim!
17:10:56 <tlebo> thanks for feedback!
17:11:06 <dgarijo> :)
17:11:18 <GK> Luc: wrapping up
17:11:21 <Zakim> -tlebo
17:11:21 <GK> Ends.
17:11:22 <Zakim> -??P11
17:11:23 <Zakim> -dgarijo
17:11:27 <Zakim> -jcheney
17:11:29 <Zakim> -sandro
17:11:31 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
17:11:35 <Zakim> -Paolo
17:11:39 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:11:41 <Zakim> -Luc
17:11:43 <Zakim> -pgroth
17:11:45 <Zakim> -GK
17:11:47 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aacc
17:12:43 <Zakim> -??P40
17:35:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, ??P56, in SW_(PROV)11:00AM
17:35:05 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
17:35:07 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, Luc, Paolo, GK, +1.315.330.aabb, sandro, khalidbelhajjame, MacTed, jcheney, Yolanda, +1.518.633.aacc, tlebo, dgarijo, +1.760.705.aadd, +1.760.705.aaee,
17:35:10 <Zakim> ... +1.760.705.aaff, +1.760.705.aagg, +1.760.705.aahh, +1.760.705.aaii, +1.760.705.aajj
17:47:45 <GK> GK has left #prov
19:17:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #prov