IRC log of html-a11y on 2012-01-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:58:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/05-html-a11y-irc
15:58:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:58:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:58:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
15:58:13 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
15:58:14 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:58:14 [trackbot]
Date: 05 January 2012
15:59:27 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
15:59:34 [Zakim]
+??P16
15:59:42 [janina]
zakim, ??P16 is Janina_Sajka
15:59:42 [Zakim]
+Janina_Sajka; got it
15:59:54 [MichaelC]
regrets: Laura_Carlson, Marco_Ranon
16:00:17 [Zakim]
+??P20
16:00:23 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P20 is Michael_Cooper
16:00:23 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper; got it
16:00:25 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike
16:00:25 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:00:27 [Zakim]
+Mike
16:00:45 [MichaelC]
zakim, drop Mike
16:00:45 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
16:00:46 [Zakim]
-Mike
16:01:04 [MikeSmith]
hmm
16:01:06 [MichaelC]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Jan/0012.html
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16:01:47 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike-goog
16:01:56 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:01:58 [Zakim]
+Mike
16:02:21 [MichaelC]
chair: Mike_Smith
16:02:50 [Zakim]
+Rich
16:03:16 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot
16:03:22 [dboudreau]
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16:03:52 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:04:16 [MichaelC]
zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner
16:04:16 [Zakim]
+Steve_Faulkner; got it
16:04:50 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
16:06:42 [janina]
scribe: janina
16:06:55 [janina]
topic: status re deadlines
16:07:26 [janina]
ms: Good starting point might be recap from Bug Triage
16:07:43 [janina]
cs: Also have an agendum--Have sent in bug update
16:07:55 [MikeSmith]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Jan/0002.html
16:08:30 [janina]
mc: Looked at needsinfo bugs, still need relevant info
16:09:17 [janina]
mc: Categorized the won'tfix bugs (approx 80) into 12 categories
16:09:36 [janina]
mc: Each category contains related bugs
16:09:50 [MikeSmith]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Dec/0316.html detailed bugs summary from Cynthia on Dec 23
16:09:52 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:09:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/05-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:10:01 [janina]
mc: Some issues are closed, wondering whether to reopen? or create new issue?
16:10:41 [janina]
mc: Currently believe there might be 8 to 10 issues to escalate
16:14:30 [janina]
rs: Concern about how decisions reached can be vacated under WG process
16:14:45 [janina]
js: Think it's worth discussing, but orthagonal to current discussion
16:15:25 [janina]
ms: We were discussing existing, unescalated bugs, whether we need to escalate in order to make January 15 deadline
16:15:41 [janina]
cs: Any we can review now?
16:15:44 [janina]
mc: No.
16:16:51 [janina]
js: Are we OK on work load?
16:17:00 [janina]
mc: Yes on the won'tfix set that we categorized
16:17:09 [janina]
mc: Unsure about the needsinfo
16:17:24 [janina]
mc: Approx 30-40 needsinfo ones
16:17:57 [janina]
mc: Also some marked fixed which we haven't verified, and may not be able to verify, or verify that we agree with the fix
16:18:47 [MichaelC]
-> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&keywords=a11ytf&bug_status=RESOLVED&resolution=NEEDSINFO Bugs as needsinfo
16:19:03 [MichaelC]
-> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&keywords=a11ytf&bug_status=RESOLVED&resolution=WONTFIX Bugs marked won't fix
16:19:21 [janina]
ms: Was asking about the categorizations ...
16:19:30 [MichaelC]
-> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&keywords=a11ytf&bug_status=RESOLVED&resolution=FIXED Bugs marked as fixed
16:19:43 [MichaelC]
Potential issues to escalate:
16:19:45 [MichaelC]
Text alternatives
16:19:49 [MichaelC]
ARIA mapping
16:19:52 [MichaelC]
Canvas
16:19:56 [MichaelC]
Conformance
16:20:03 [MichaelC]
Media
16:20:05 [MichaelC]
Keyboard Access
16:20:11 [MichaelC]
Tooltip vs title
16:20:17 [MichaelC]
Contenteditable
16:20:20 [MichaelC]
Drag and Drop
16:20:31 [MichaelC]
... and some misc ones that might be new issues
16:21:47 [janina]
ms: I posted a comment re drag and drop, and want to note that I haven't seen any new info relating to keyboard issues on it.
16:21:57 [janina]
ms: We went around on this a year ago
16:22:37 [janina]
ms: Gez re-reviewed following the editor's changes approx November 2010, and found no remaining issues
16:22:52 [janina]
ms: Looking through everything since, I see nothing new to identify problem
16:23:23 [janina]
jf: I think Everett filed comments and bugs around this recently
16:23:50 [janina]
mc: I think there were some drag and drop bugs we verified in December.
16:24:22 [janina]
mc: We're triagging for a closer look
16:25:15 [janina]
ms: Important to identify what specific issues are if we go forward with a new dnd bug
16:25:25 [janina]
ms: Possible to get Gez on this briefly?
16:25:54 [janina]
mc: Both Gez and Everett participate in Bug Triage, Everett more
16:27:55 [Stevef]
q+
16:28:07 [janina]
ms: Seems we're OK on bugs
16:28:16 [janina]
rs: So, going back to the issue I've raised
16:28:45 [janina]
rs: Concerned W3C doesn't have control of this spec, because lacking process
16:29:58 [MikeSmith]
ack Stevef
16:30:37 [janina]
sf: Some of the needsinfo have to do with adding role attrib
16:30:52 [janina]
sf: Seems these should be a priority
16:31:28 [janina]
mc: won'tfix we'll be covering on Tuesday, needsinfo we've assigned
16:31:51 [Stevef]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11891
16:33:20 [janina]
mc: Our expectation is to create tracker items for escalated issues, then associated parts of particular bugs to those
16:33:29 [janina]
mc: So, the TF will be following the tracker issues
16:33:48 [janina]
mc: So, for ARIA, perhaps something like "Make sure ARIA is completely mapped"
16:34:11 [janina]
sf: Agree, but also have the concern that we follow process and not be at risk for changes that come out of the blue
16:34:31 [janina]
rs: Because if our time and resolutions are at risk, we're wasting our time here
16:35:22 [janina]
cs: Leonie sent me needsinfo, and I also looked at any I had previously touched
16:36:06 [MichaelC]
-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review Spec review wiki page
16:36:12 [cyns]
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16:36:15 [cyns]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/All
16:36:53 [cyns]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13512
16:36:57 [janina]
cs: First one I thought needed discussion
16:38:05 [janina]
mc: We triagged this as a feature request
16:38:33 [janina]
cs: Pretty significant issue for web apps, don't see it as a feature request, think it's underspecified
16:38:39 [janina]
cs: If moving to another spec, that's fine
16:38:59 [janina]
cs: AT's have hacked around this, but a resolution would be better
16:40:41 [janina]
mc: Maybe that we could agree this should be worked on in Web Apps
16:40:47 [janina]
cs: Don't feel qualified to say that
16:41:00 [janina]
ms: Willing to have an opinion, but don't know we have a consensus
16:41:09 [janina]
cs: Who does Anna speak for on this?
16:41:10 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
16:41:20 [janina]
ms: Nobody speaks for the wg in bugzilla
16:41:27 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot
16:42:00 [Zakim]
-Mike
16:42:01 [janina]
ms: So, as an editorial assistant, he speaks on behalf of the editor on this
16:42:12 [janina]
cs: Is there wg consensus on this?
16:42:13 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike-goog
16:42:13 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:42:15 [Zakim]
+Mike
16:42:18 [janina]
js: Should we ask for wg consensus on this?
16:43:07 [janina]
ms: As of now this is outside of html
16:44:04 [janina]
mc: So our interest may be to insure there's a normative ref to DOM in the html specs
16:44:27 [janina]
cs: OK. Will move bug to Web Apps
16:45:13 [janina]
cs: OK, next ... 13659
16:45:30 [cyns]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13659
16:45:50 [janina]
cs: duplicate of 13599
16:46:00 [janina]
cs: not really a11y, inclined to drop from our radar
16:46:44 [janina]
cs: 13662
16:47:30 [janina]
cs: I suggest we verify
16:47:35 [janina]
[agreement]
16:47:46 [janina]
cs: 13656
16:47:57 [cyns]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13656
16:48:23 [janina]
cs: Anyone have examples?
16:48:30 [janina]
cs: Help appreciated on this
16:48:37 [janina]
ms: Suggest an email on list for this one
16:48:51 [janina]
mc: Also possibly John Gunderson
16:49:09 [janina]
cs: 13528
16:49:17 [janina]
cs: I verify
16:49:30 [janina]
[agreement]
16:49:34 [janina]
cs: 13531
16:49:58 [cyns]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13531
16:50:27 [janina]
cs: there are examples in the spec that aren't best practice, though editor doesn't agree
16:50:58 [janina]
cs: It's allowed, but not the best example
16:51:10 [janina]
sf: Did a study of this recently, and there are issues
16:52:05 [Stevef]
http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/form-labels.html
16:52:40 [janina]
ms: Meta question here is is this something to escalate to an issue?
16:53:03 [janina]
ms: Perhaps to update the bug with comments
16:53:19 [janina]
sf: Basically, this doesn't work with crome and safari
16:54:05 [janina]
js: What about the invalids?
16:54:16 [janina]
mc: I see about 15, and I'll make sure triage looks at them
16:54:56 [janina]
ms: Suggest Triage should also look at Cynthia's remaining items, about 7 more bugs
16:56:06 [janina]
ms: So let's talk about the issue Rich raised
16:56:23 [janina]
ms: Agree with Janina that this isn't specifically a TF issue, but something that should be discussed in the WG
16:56:46 [janina]
ms: My concern is whether the chairs even have control over the W3C spec
16:57:01 [janina]
ms: Well, they do about the WG process
16:57:27 [janina]
ms: Clearly, the HTML-WG is in many ways different from other W3C
16:57:46 [janina]
ms: The chairs are making decisions, and have made a decision in this case
16:58:04 [janina]
rs: Based on their assessment that browsers would not implement, but we're not in CR
16:58:33 [janina]
rs: It's premature to use that as a yardstick
16:59:55 [janina]
ms: PLH also involved in the discussion on this as was I
17:00:07 [janina]
RS: I'm not wed to the API we created, ncesarrily
17:00:17 [janina]
rs: people are using canvas to do text
17:00:58 [janina]
rs: seems their decision is based on issues that have persisted, and we have no a11y support or the ability,
17:02:29 [janina]
ms: reminds that our process is edit and then discuss
17:03:50 [janina]
ms: pointing out the separate canvas spec
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17:04:00 [janina]
rs: but the changes are not tracking
17:10:40 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
17:36:11 [Stevef]
HTML Canvas 2D Context Extensions
17:36:12 [Stevef]
http://dev.w3.org/html5/canvas-extensions/Overview.html
17:44:03 [Zakim]
-Steve_Faulkner
17:44:06 [Zakim]
-Rich
17:44:52 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
17:44:57 [Zakim]
-Mike
17:44:58 [janina]
zakim, bye
17:44:58 [Zakim]
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17:44:58 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Janina_Sajka, Michael_Cooper, Mike, Rich, John_Foliot, Steve_Faulkner, Cynthia_Shelly
17:45:05 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:45:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/05-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
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