15:58:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:58:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/05-html-a11y-irc
15:58:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:58:11 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:58:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
15:58:13 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
15:58:14 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:58:14 <trackbot> Date: 05 January 2012
15:59:27 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
15:59:34 <Zakim> +??P16
15:59:42 <janina> zakim, ??P16 is Janina_Sajka
15:59:42 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
15:59:54 <MichaelC> regrets: Laura_Carlson, Marco_Ranon
16:00:17 <Zakim> +??P20
16:00:23 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P20 is Michael_Cooper
16:00:23 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper; got it
16:00:25 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
16:00:25 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:00:27 <Zakim> +Mike
16:00:45 <MichaelC> zakim, drop Mike
16:00:45 <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
16:00:46 <Zakim> -Mike
16:01:04 <MikeSmith> hmm
16:01:06 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Jan/0012.html
16:01:44 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
16:01:47 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-goog
16:01:56 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:01:58 <Zakim> +Mike
16:02:21 <MichaelC> chair: Mike_Smith
16:02:50 <Zakim> +Rich
16:03:16 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
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16:03:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:16 <MichaelC> zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner
16:04:16 <Zakim> +Steve_Faulkner; got it
16:04:50 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
16:06:42 <janina> scribe: janina
16:06:55 <janina> topic: status re deadlines
16:07:26 <janina> ms: Good starting point might be recap from Bug Triage
16:07:43 <janina> cs: Also have an agendum--Have sent in bug update
16:07:55 <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Jan/0002.html
16:08:30 <janina> mc: Looked at needsinfo bugs, still need relevant info
16:09:17 <janina> mc: Categorized the won'tfix bugs (approx 80) into 12 categories
16:09:36 <janina> mc: Each category contains related bugs
16:09:50 <MikeSmith> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Dec/0316.html detailed bugs summary from Cynthia on Dec 23
16:09:52 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:09:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/05-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:10:01 <janina> mc: Some issues are closed, wondering whether to reopen? or create new issue?
16:10:41 <janina> mc: Currently believe there might be 8 to 10 issues to escalate
16:14:30 <janina> rs: Concern about how decisions reached can be vacated under WG process
16:14:45 <janina> js: Think it's worth discussing, but orthagonal to current discussion
16:15:25 <janina> ms: We were discussing existing, unescalated bugs, whether we need to escalate in order to make January 15 deadline
16:15:41 <janina> cs: Any we can review now?
16:15:44 <janina> mc: No.
16:16:51 <janina> js: Are we OK on work load?
16:17:00 <janina> mc: Yes on the won'tfix set that we categorized
16:17:09 <janina> mc: Unsure about the needsinfo
16:17:24 <janina> mc: Approx 30-40 needsinfo ones
16:17:57 <janina> mc: Also some marked fixed which we haven't verified, and may not be able to verify, or verify that we agree with the fix
16:18:47 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&keywords=a11ytf&bug_status=RESOLVED&resolution=NEEDSINFO Bugs as needsinfo
16:19:03 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&keywords=a11ytf&bug_status=RESOLVED&resolution=WONTFIX Bugs marked won't fix
16:19:21 <janina> ms: Was asking about the categorizations ...
16:19:30 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&keywords=a11ytf&bug_status=RESOLVED&resolution=FIXED Bugs marked as fixed
16:19:43 <MichaelC> Potential issues to escalate:
16:19:45 <MichaelC> Text alternatives
16:19:49 <MichaelC> ARIA mapping
16:19:52 <MichaelC> Canvas
16:19:56 <MichaelC> Conformance
16:20:03 <MichaelC> Media
16:20:05 <MichaelC> Keyboard Access
16:20:11 <MichaelC> Tooltip vs title
16:20:17 <MichaelC> Contenteditable
16:20:20 <MichaelC> Drag and Drop
16:20:31 <MichaelC> ... and some misc ones that might be new issues
16:21:47 <janina> ms: I posted a comment re drag and drop, and want to note that I haven't seen any new info relating to keyboard issues on it.
16:21:57 <janina> ms: We went around on this a year ago
16:22:37 <janina> ms: Gez re-reviewed following the editor's changes approx November 2010, and found no remaining issues
16:22:52 <janina> ms: Looking through everything since, I see nothing new to identify problem
16:23:23 <janina> jf: I think Everett filed comments and bugs around this recently
16:23:50 <janina> mc: I think there were some drag and drop bugs we verified in December.
16:24:22 <janina> mc: We're triagging for a closer look
16:25:15 <janina> ms: Important to identify what specific issues are if we go forward with a new dnd bug
16:25:25 <janina> ms: Possible to get Gez on this briefly?
16:25:54 <janina> mc: Both Gez and Everett participate in Bug Triage, Everett more
16:27:55 <Stevef> q+
16:28:07 <janina> ms: Seems we're OK on bugs
16:28:16 <janina> rs: So, going back to the issue I've raised
16:28:45 <janina> rs: Concerned W3C doesn't have control of this spec, because lacking process
16:29:58 <MikeSmith> ack Stevef 
16:30:37 <janina> sf: Some of the needsinfo have to do with adding role attrib 
16:30:52 <janina> sf: Seems these should be a priority
16:31:28 <janina> mc: won'tfix we'll be covering on Tuesday, needsinfo we've assigned
16:31:51 <Stevef> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11891
16:33:20 <janina> mc: Our expectation is to create tracker items for escalated issues, then associated parts of particular bugs to those
16:33:29 <janina> mc: So, the TF will be following the tracker issues
16:33:48 <janina> mc: So, for ARIA, perhaps something like "Make sure ARIA is completely mapped"
16:34:11 <janina> sf: Agree, but also have the concern that we follow process and not be at risk for changes that come out of the blue
16:34:31 <janina> rs: Because if our time and resolutions are at risk, we're wasting our time here
16:35:22 <janina> cs: Leonie sent me needsinfo, and I also looked at any I had previously touched
16:36:06 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review Spec review wiki page
16:36:12 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-a11y
16:36:15 <cyns>  http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/All
16:36:53 <cyns> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13512
16:36:57 <janina> cs: First one I thought needed discussion
16:38:05 <janina> mc: We triagged this as a feature request
16:38:33 <janina> cs: Pretty significant issue for web apps, don't see it as a feature request, think it's underspecified
16:38:39 <janina> cs: If moving to another spec, that's fine
16:38:59 <janina> cs: AT's have hacked around this, but a resolution would be better
16:40:41 <janina> mc: Maybe that we could agree this should be worked on in Web Apps
16:40:47 <janina> cs: Don't feel qualified to say that
16:41:00 <janina> ms: Willing to have an opinion, but don't know we have a consensus
16:41:09 <janina> cs: Who does Anna speak for on this?
16:41:10 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
16:41:20 <janina> ms: Nobody speaks for the wg in bugzilla
16:41:27 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
16:42:00 <Zakim> -Mike
16:42:01 <janina> ms: So, as an editorial assistant, he speaks on behalf of the editor on this
16:42:12 <janina> cs: Is there wg consensus on this?
16:42:13 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-goog
16:42:13 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:42:15 <Zakim> +Mike
16:42:18 <janina> js: Should we ask for wg consensus on this?
16:43:07 <janina> ms: As of now this is outside of html
16:44:04 <janina> mc: So our interest may be to insure there's a normative ref to DOM in the html specs
16:44:27 <janina> cs: OK. Will move bug to Web Apps
16:45:13 <janina> cs: OK, next ... 13659
16:45:30 <cyns> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13659
16:45:50 <janina> cs: duplicate of 13599
16:46:00 <janina> cs: not really a11y, inclined to drop from our radar
16:46:44 <janina> cs: 13662
16:47:30 <janina> cs: I suggest we verify
16:47:35 <janina> [agreement]
16:47:46 <janina> cs: 13656
16:47:57 <cyns> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13656
16:48:23 <janina> cs: Anyone have examples?
16:48:30 <janina> cs: Help appreciated on this
16:48:37 <janina> ms: Suggest an email on list for this one
16:48:51 <janina> mc: Also possibly John Gunderson
16:49:09 <janina> cs: 13528
16:49:17 <janina> cs: I verify
16:49:30 <janina> [agreement]
16:49:34 <janina> cs: 13531
16:49:58 <cyns> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13531
16:50:27 <janina> cs: there are examples in the spec that aren't best practice, though editor doesn't agree
16:50:58 <janina> cs: It's allowed, but not the best example
16:51:10 <janina> sf: Did a study of this recently, and there are issues
16:52:05 <Stevef> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/form-labels.html
16:52:40 <janina> ms: Meta question here is is this something to escalate to an issue?
16:53:03 <janina> ms: Perhaps to update the bug with comments
16:53:19 <janina> sf: Basically, this doesn't work with crome and safari
16:54:05 <janina> js: What about the invalids?
16:54:16 <janina> mc: I see about 15, and I'll make sure triage looks at them
16:54:56 <janina> ms: Suggest Triage should also look at Cynthia's remaining items, about 7 more bugs
16:56:06 <janina> ms: So let's talk about the issue Rich raised
16:56:23 <janina> ms: Agree with Janina that this isn't specifically a TF issue, but something that should be discussed in the WG
16:56:46 <janina> ms: My concern is whether the chairs even have control over the W3C spec
16:57:01 <janina> ms: Well, they do about the WG process
16:57:27 <janina> ms: Clearly, the HTML-WG is in many ways different from other W3C
16:57:46 <janina> ms: The chairs are making decisions, and have made a decision in this case
16:58:04 <janina> rs: Based on their assessment that browsers would not implement, but we're not in CR
16:58:33 <janina> rs: It's premature to use that as a yardstick
16:59:55 <janina> ms: PLH also involved in the discussion on this as was I
17:00:07 <janina> RS: I'm not wed to the API we created, ncesarrily
17:00:17 <janina> rs: people are using canvas to do text
17:00:58 <janina> rs: seems their decision is based on issues that have persisted, and we have no a11y support or the ability, 
17:02:29 <janina> ms: reminds that our process is edit and then discuss
17:03:50 <janina> ms: pointing out the separate canvas spec
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17:04:00 <janina> rs: but the changes are not tracking
17:10:40 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
17:36:11 <Stevef> HTML Canvas 2D Context Extensions
17:36:12 <Stevef> http://dev.w3.org/html5/canvas-extensions/Overview.html
17:44:03 <Zakim> -Steve_Faulkner
17:44:06 <Zakim> -Rich
17:44:52 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
17:44:57 <Zakim> -Mike
17:44:58 <janina> zakim, bye
17:44:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
17:44:58 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Janina_Sajka, Michael_Cooper, Mike, Rich, John_Foliot, Steve_Faulkner, Cynthia_Shelly
17:45:05 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
17:45:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/05-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
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