14:52:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eval
14:52:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/05-eval-irc
14:52:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:52:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eval
14:52:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
14:52:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:52:34 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
14:52:34 <trackbot> Date: 05 January 2012
14:52:44 <shadi> chair: Eric
14:53:01 <ssirois> zakim, who is on phone?
14:53:01 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ssirois.
14:53:17 <shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Jan/0004.html
14:53:53 <shadi> agenda+ Welcome
14:54:11 <shadi> agenda+ Methodology overall reactions
14:54:16 <shadi> agenda+ Section 4
14:54:23 <shadi> agenda+ Section 3.7
14:54:36 <shadi> agenda+ Face-to-face meeting
14:55:18 <ssirois> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:55:18 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has not yet started, ssirois
14:55:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, ssirois, vivienne, shadi, trackbot
14:56:02 <houtepen> houtepen has joined #eval
14:56:43 <houtepen> zakim, mute me
14:56:44 <Zakim> sorry, houtepen, I don't know what conference this is
14:57:34 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #eval
14:58:17 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:17 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has not yet started, shadi
14:58:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see Kathy, houtepen, Zakim, RRSAgent, ssirois, vivienne, shadi, trackbot
14:58:33 <shadi> zakim, this is evaltf
14:58:33 <Zakim> sorry, shadi, I do not see a conference named 'evaltf' in progress or scheduled at this time
14:58:36 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has joined #eval
14:58:44 <shadi> zakim, list conferences
14:58:44 <Zakim> I see T&S_GLDWG()10:00AM, WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM, TAG_f2f()7:30AM active
14:58:47 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are IA_WebApps(Widgets)9:00AM, XML_PMWG()10:00AM, WF_TF()9:00AM, UW_UWA()9:00AM, Math_IG()10:00AM, MM_MMI(EMMA)10:00AM, Team_Global(review)8:00AM,
14:58:50 <Zakim> ... INC_(DecisionXG)10:00AM, SW_RDFa()10:00AM
14:58:55 <shadi> zakim, this is wai_ertwg
14:58:55 <Zakim> ok, shadi; that matches WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM
14:58:58 <Zakim> + +1.301.975.aacc
14:59:02 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, +31.30.239.aaaa, Shadi, +1.978.443.aabb, +1.301.975.aacc
14:59:17 <ssirois> zakim, ??P3 is me
14:59:17 <Zakim> +ssirois; got it
14:59:21 <dboudreau> dboudreau has joined #eval
14:59:27 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aadd
14:59:36 <shadi> zakim, aaaa is houtepen 
14:59:36 <Zakim> +houtepen; got it
14:59:46 <shadi> zakim, aabb is Kathy
14:59:46 <Zakim> +Kathy; got it
14:59:50 <houtepen> zakim, mute me
14:59:50 <Zakim> houtepen should now be muted
14:59:55 <shadi> zakim, aacc is Liz
14:59:55 <Zakim> +Liz; got it
15:00:04 <shadi> zakim, aadd is ericvelleman 
15:00:04 <Zakim> +ericvelleman; got it
15:00:09 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #eval
15:00:20 <Zakim> + +1.514.312.aaee
15:00:34 <efong> efong has joined #eval
15:00:46 <shadi> zakim, aaee is dboudreau
15:00:46 <Zakim> +dboudreau; got it
15:00:58 <Zakim> + +49.404.318.aaff
15:01:20 <ssirois> zakim, mute me
15:01:25 <Zakim> + +1.517.353.aagg
15:01:26 <Detlev> Zakim, aaff is me
15:01:33 <Zakim> ssirois should now be muted
15:01:42 <Mike_Elledge> Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
15:01:43 <Zakim> +Detlev; got it
15:01:58 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:02:03 <Zakim> +??P30
15:02:07 <SarahSwierenga> SarahSwierenga has joined #eval
15:02:10 <shadi> zakim, aagg is Mike
15:02:16 <Detlev> zakim, mute me
15:02:30 <shadi> zakim, ??p30 is Vivienne
15:02:31 <Zakim> sorry, vivienne, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:02:41 <Zakim> +Mike; got it
15:02:43 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:02:43 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #eval
15:03:05 <Zakim> +Vivienne; got it
15:03:19 <Zakim> + +1.517.432.aahh
15:03:23 <houtepen> zakim, unmute me
15:03:25 <shadi> scribe: Shadi
15:03:31 <houtepen> zakim. mute me
15:03:37 <vivienne> zakim, unmute me
15:03:39 <houtepen> zakim, mute me
15:03:45 <Zakim> houtepen should no longer be muted
15:03:48 <shadi> zakim, aahh is Sarah
15:03:56 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:03:59 <Zakim> Vivienne was not muted, vivienne
15:04:01 <Zakim> houtepen should now be muted
15:04:04 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:04:05 <Zakim> +Sarah; got it
15:04:05 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:04:11 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
15:04:11 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:13 <Zakim> Vivienne was already muted, vivienne
15:04:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see ssirois (muted), houtepen (muted), Shadi, Kathy, Liz, ericvelleman, dboudreau, Detlev (muted), Mike, Vivienne (muted), Sarah, Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:04:21 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:04:22 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:04:24 <shadi> agenda?
15:04:32 <Mike_Elledge> q+
15:04:39 <shadi> zakim, tahe up agendum 1
15:04:42 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:04:45 <Zakim> I don't understand 'tahe up agendum 1', shadi
15:04:51 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome" taken up [from shadi]
15:04:56 <shadi> EV: happy new year!
15:05:01 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
15:05:02 <Zakim> Kathy should now be muted
15:05:07 <shadi> ...new version of the methodology online
15:05:14 <shadi> ...changes to section 3 and 4
15:05:29 <shadi> ...addressed comments from the WCAG group
15:05:40 <shadi> ...getting more flesh but still needs more work
15:06:25 <shadi> q?
15:07:03 <shadi> ...want to specifically look at scope and size of sample today
15:07:33 <shadi> ...counting the minimum pages is 25 but could lead up to 5000
15:07:41 <dboudreau> q+
15:07:44 <shadi> ...5000 is unrealistic but 5 may be too little
15:08:02 <shadi> ack mike
15:08:21 <shadi> q- dboudreau 
15:08:26 <shadi> zakim, take up next
15:08:28 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Methodology overall reactions" taken up [from shadi]
15:08:30 <shadi> q+ dboudreau 
15:08:51 <shadi> ME: confused by the use of the term "resource"
15:09:11 <shadi> ...also wondering about getting hung on trying to define a specific number of pages
15:09:19 <shadi> ...maybe better to define ranges
15:09:30 <shadi> ...because could vary depending on context
15:09:40 <Detlev> agree
15:09:41 <shadi> ...for instance goal and cost etc
15:10:20 <shadi> EV: used "resource" but did not introduce it
15:10:27 <ericvelleman> q?
15:10:30 <shadi> ...could discuss other options too
15:10:32 <vivienne> q+
15:10:44 <shadi> ack dboudreau 
15:11:25 <shadi> DB: we use the term "template", usually ~4 pages
15:11:35 <shadi> ..."template" because they are representative
15:11:52 <shadi> ...like pages with forms, multiple heading levels, etc
15:12:27 <Detlev> absolutely agree
15:12:51 <shadi> ...we try to find the most important issues for the developers to fix
15:13:00 <shadi> ...usually in an iterative process
15:13:15 <vivienne> I absolutely agree with Denis' approach, and I do much the same
15:13:30 <Tim> Tim has joined #eval
15:13:31 <shadi> ...smaller evaluation first but a more complete one later on
15:14:20 <shadi> ...initial sample is small that can be done by manual evaluation too
15:14:46 <shadi> ...not dependent on large-scale automatic tool
15:15:05 <vivienne> q-
15:15:14 <Mike_Elledge> +1 to Denis' comment
15:15:17 <shadi> EV: have description of "template"
15:15:31 <shadi> ...but just counting those we end up with several pages already
15:15:37 <Detlev> q+
15:15:54 <ssirois> I cannot disagree with dboudreau on that one since i do work the same way (at the same place! :P)
15:16:08 <efong>  
15:16:29 <shadi> ...we also do not clearly describe the role of tools
15:16:37 <shadi> ...for example to help select pages
15:16:43 <ericvelleman> q?
15:17:10 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
15:17:30 <shadi> DB: many of our clients may not be large websites
15:17:55 <shadi> ...thorough review is up to 2 hours per page
15:18:56 <shadi> ...for small websites can be only 4 pages but sometimes up to 8 pages
15:19:09 <shadi> ...because sets can be overlapping
15:19:26 <shadi> ...like data tables may be together with forms or such
15:19:57 <shadi> EV: also have preliminary review
15:20:09 <shadi> ...could that cover first phase?
15:20:25 <shadi> q+
15:20:29 <Detlev> zakim, unmute me
15:20:29 <Zakim> Detlev should no longer be muted
15:20:35 <shadi> ack det
15:20:35 <dboudreau> zakim, mute me
15:20:36 <Zakim> dboudreau should now be muted
15:21:00 <shadi> DF: also in a similar situation with types of websites
15:21:16 <shadi> ...vivienne had also mentioned the pages with overlapping content
15:21:43 <shadi> ...also add specific "elements" to a sample
15:22:13 <shadi> ...for example only evaluating the tables in a page because the other aspects have been already reviewed
15:22:50 <Detlev> zakim, mute me
15:22:50 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:22:56 <ericvelleman> q?
15:22:57 <shadi> ack me
15:24:12 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:24:12 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:24:18 <dboudreau> @shadi - tho is exactly what we do when we have larger clients that can actually afford to start with a preliminary
15:24:22 <Kathy> q+
15:24:31 <shadi> SAZ: agree with what was said, leads to a dynamic approach
15:24:35 <dboudreau> s/tho/this
15:24:51 <shadi> ...but need to keep preliminary review separare from conformance evaluation
15:24:57 <Detlev> sure - states and elements have t be exactly determined
15:25:01 <ericvelleman> q?
15:25:04 <Kathy> ack me
15:25:08 <Mike_Elledge> q+
15:25:16 <shadi> ack Kathy 
15:25:30 <shadi> KW: agree with Denis and Detlev
15:25:59 <Ryladog> q+
15:26:08 <shadi> ...but with more complex sites, particularly more application type, we find that more task-based approaches are more useful
15:26:32 <shadi> ...maybe need different scenarios on the different page sizes rather than a single limit
15:26:45 <shadi> EV: example of a scenario?
15:27:16 <shadi> KW: for example a retail store, you could have scenarios like "user registering" or "registered users checking out" etc
15:27:40 <shadi> ...still have repetitvness of pages but often the content is different
15:27:53 <ericvelleman> q?
15:27:59 <shadi> ack Mike_Elledge 
15:28:00 <Detlev> q+
15:28:02 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
15:28:02 <Zakim> Kathy should now be muted
15:28:09 <shadi> ME: agree with everyone
15:28:33 <shadi> ...scenarios and tasks rather than a hard-limit on pages
15:29:04 <shadi> zakim, who is making noise?
15:29:11 <ericvelleman> q?
15:29:15 <Zakim> shadi, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ericvelleman (59%), Katie_Haritos-Shea (59%)
15:29:22 <shadi> ack Ryladog 
15:29:41 <shadi> KHS: need to have something measurable and repeatable
15:29:59 <shadi> ...maybe need a range to give people a goal to shoot for
15:30:48 <shadi> EV: range seems to make sense
15:30:58 <shadi> zakim, mute katie
15:30:58 <Zakim> Katie_Haritos-Shea should now be muted
15:30:58 <Detlev> zakim, unmute me
15:30:59 <Zakim> Detlev should no longer be muted
15:31:00 <dboudreau> adding one page for every x page makes no sense if we had 2000 pages of smile content form the same template
15:31:01 <ericvelleman> q?
15:31:10 <shadi> ack Detlev 
15:31:15 <dboudreau> s/smile/simple
15:31:39 <shadi> DF: with small websites it usually only needs a small number of pages
15:32:06 <shadi> ...also if you look enough you will surely find an issue somewhere
15:32:30 <shadi> ...need to focus on things that are vitally important
15:33:06 <Detlev> zakim, mute me
15:33:06 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:33:16 <shadi> EV: looking at error margins later in the document
15:33:30 <shadi> ...will come back to it later on
15:33:38 <vivienne> q+
15:33:40 <ssirois> zakim, drop ssirois
15:33:40 <Zakim> ssirois is being disconnected
15:33:41 <Zakim> -ssirois
15:33:47 <shadi> q+
15:34:05 <shadi> EV: seems there is a tendency for less pages
15:34:08 <ericvelleman> q?
15:34:11 <vivienne> ack me
15:34:14 <shadi> ack vivienne 
15:34:39 <Zakim> +??P3
15:34:49 <ssirois> zakim, ??P3 is me
15:34:49 <Zakim> +ssirois; got it
15:34:53 <ssirois> zakim, mute me
15:34:53 <Zakim> ssirois should now be muted
15:35:17 <Detlev> blackboxing (local copies?) will often not work with dynamic sites
15:35:26 <shadi> VC: wondering if need to consider proof of the state of the website at the time of evaluation
15:35:34 <Ryladog> date and hour of each page tested - not the site
15:35:34 <shadi> ...do people mirror the website?
15:35:50 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:35:50 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
15:36:00 <Mike_Elledge> Definitely need to say when the site/which version/etc. is tested
15:36:32 <shadi> EV: pages can change very quickly
15:36:35 <Detlev> q+
15:36:47 <shadi> ...may need to cover in the evaluation report
15:37:03 <vivienne> ack me
15:37:56 <shadi> VC: wondering if we are going to do some form of proof of what was tested, maybe as part of the scope
15:38:04 <ericvelleman> q?
15:38:08 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:38:08 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
15:38:09 <shadi> ack me
15:39:15 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:39:15 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:39:26 <ericvelleman> q?
15:39:27 <Detlev> zakim, unmute me
15:39:27 <Zakim> Detlev should no longer be muted
15:39:35 <shadi> SAZ: sample size should not only grow by size but also by complexity
15:39:58 <shadi> ...Detlev had mentioned adding "elements" like tables or forms etc to the sampel
15:40:45 <shadi> DF: many pages could also impact the score, especially if the score is based on the number of pages tested
15:40:51 <Detlev> zakim, mute me
15:40:51 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:41:05 <shadi> ...for example by diluting a single instance of a significant barrier
15:41:13 <dboudreau> q+
15:41:16 <ericvelleman> q?
15:41:19 <shadi> EV: what about proof?
15:41:22 <Detlev> zakim, unmute me
15:41:22 <Zakim> Detlev should no longer be muted
15:41:24 <Mike_Elledge> q+
15:41:37 <shadi> ...should we damand that people mirror the pages they test?
15:41:42 <shadi> ack detlev
15:41:58 <shadi> DF: did not work very well for dynamic pages
15:42:06 <shadi> ...is of limited value
15:42:22 <dboudreau> +1 to detlev
15:42:28 <shadi> ...but may also use screenshots
15:42:52 <shadi> ...but essential is the date and time of the testing
15:42:57 <dboudreau> ack me
15:43:05 <Detlev> zakim, mute me
15:43:05 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:43:09 <shadi> ...arguments over the result is not very frequent
15:43:16 <shadi> ack dboudreau 
15:43:34 <shadi> DB: similar experience as Detlev
15:43:59 <shadi> ...do not always record the pages, hardly ever used
15:44:11 <shadi> ...but still good idea to suggest
15:44:38 <shadi> EV: may be possible to suggest it but may not be easy to require it as part of the methodology
15:45:08 <shadi> ack Mike_Elledge 
15:45:19 <shadi> ME: we do not save the pages for the reasons mentioned
15:45:40 <dboudreau_> dboudreau_ has joined #eval
15:45:41 <shadi> ...but we do take screenshots to keep a sense of what the page looked like
15:45:46 <Kathy> q+
15:45:56 <shadi> EV: we save the code locally
15:46:11 <shadi> ...for occassional querries
15:46:31 <dboudreau_> zakim, mute me
15:46:31 <Zakim> sorry, dboudreau_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:46:40 <ericvelleman> q?
15:46:42 <Kathy> ack me
15:46:53 <shadi> zakim, dboudreau_ is really dboudreau
15:46:53 <Zakim> sorry, shadi, I do not recognize a party named 'dboudreau_'
15:47:10 <shadi> ack Kathy 
15:47:22 <Kathy> mute me
15:47:29 <shadi> KW: in addition to the screenshot also helpful to have the original code
15:47:39 <shadi> agenda?
15:47:55 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 5
15:47:55 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Face-to-face meeting" taken up [from shadi]
15:48:00 <shadi> ack me
15:49:15 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/
15:51:13 <shadi> SAZ: no critical mass yet
15:51:23 <shadi> ...but really important to consider TPAC
15:51:30 <vivienne> It's all far from Australia!
15:51:42 <shadi> ...could co-locate meeting with WCAG WG and/or other relevant groups
15:51:47 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:51:47 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:51:53 <shadi> zakim, take up next
15:51:53 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Methodology overall reactions" taken up [from shadi]
15:52:01 <shadi> zakim, take up next
15:52:01 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, shadi
15:52:08 <shadi> zakim, drop agendum 2
15:52:08 <Zakim> agendum 2, Methodology overall reactions, dropped
15:52:10 <shadi> zakim, take up next
15:52:10 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Section 4" taken up [from shadi]
15:52:16 <Detlev> q+
15:52:41 <ericvelleman> q?
15:52:43 <Detlev> zakim, unmute me
15:52:43 <Zakim> Detlev should no longer be muted
15:52:51 <shadi> ack det
15:53:06 <shadi> EV: need to test alternative versions?
15:53:19 <shadi> DF: at least some aspects of the alternative versions
15:53:39 <Tim> q+
15:53:40 <shadi> ...for example that you can get to the alternative version, or switch it on an off etc
15:53:53 <shadi> ...also need to ensure that the content is equivalent
15:53:58 <ericvelleman> q?
15:54:08 <shadi> ...but not need to test the content twice
15:54:10 <vivienne> I think that Detlev's point of equivalency of content is the important aspect
15:54:25 <shadi> ack tim
15:54:31 <Detlev> zakim, mute me
15:54:31 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:54:42 <shadi> TB: WCAG has a definition of "accessibility supported"
15:54:52 <shadi> ...how does that come into play?
15:55:27 <shadi> q+
15:55:46 <shadi> ack me
15:56:20 <Mike_Elledge> Not sure I understand, Tim. Can you explain further?
15:57:20 <ericvelleman> q?
15:59:34 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
15:59:35 <Zakim> Kathy should now be muted
16:00:53 <ssirois> zakim, unmute me
16:00:53 <Zakim> ssirois should no longer be muted
16:01:00 <Detlev> bye
16:01:00 <dboudreau> thanks all, take care
16:01:01 <vivienne> thanks, bye for now
16:01:01 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
16:01:02 <Kathy> bye
16:01:03 <Mike_Elledge> Thanks, bye!
16:01:04 <Zakim> -Sarah
16:01:05 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
16:01:05 <vivienne> vivienne has left #eval
16:01:06 <houtepen> bye
16:01:06 <Zakim> -Detlev
16:01:07 <Zakim> -Kathy
16:01:07 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has left #eval
16:01:08 <Zakim> -Shadi
16:01:09 <Zakim> -Mike
16:01:09 <Zakim> -dboudreau
16:01:12 <Zakim> -Liz
16:01:16 <houtepen> houtepen has left #eval
16:01:24 <Zakim> -ssirois
16:01:28 <Zakim> -Vivienne
16:02:26 <Zakim> -houtepen
16:03:22 <dboudreau> dboudreau has left #eval
16:04:32 <shadi> regrets: Kerstin, Alistair
16:04:40 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see ericvelleman
16:04:45 <shadi> zakim, drop eric
16:04:45 <Zakim> ericvelleman is being disconnected
16:04:47 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
16:04:48 <Zakim> Attendees were +31.30.239.aaaa, Shadi, +1.978.443.aabb, +1.301.975.aacc, ssirois, +31.30.239.aadd, houtepen, Kathy, Liz, ericvelleman, +1.514.312.aaee, dboudreau, +49.404.318.aaff,
16:04:50 <Zakim> ... +1.517.353.aagg, Detlev, Mike, Vivienne, +1.517.432.aahh, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Sarah, Tim_Boland
16:04:57 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
16:04:57 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:04:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:04:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/05-eval-minutes.html trackbot
16:04:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:04:59 <RRSAgent> I see no action items