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Rdf-extension.html

Sbauer2 — Mon, 28 Jan 2013 16:08:22 GMT

Sbauer2: /* Participation */

= RDF Working Group Charter Extension Request =

The RDF working group, created in February 2011, has an initial lifetime of 24 months, with a [http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdf-wg-charter charter] ending on 31 January 2013. The group has just released 4 Last Call Working Drafts and requests an extension of eleven months to progress these specifications to Recommendation (until 31 December 2013). Note that the timetable is a bit stricter and aims at the Recommendations during summer 2013, but the extension leaves some room for possible shifts.

The abbreviations in the tables below stand for the following Working Group documents:

* rdf-cas: RDF 1.1 Concepts and Abstract Syntax
* rdf-sem: RDF 1.1 Semantics
* rdf-turtle: Turtle: Terse RDF Triple Lanaguage
* json-ld-syntax: JSON-LD 1.0: A JSON-based Serialization for Linked Data
* json-ld-api: JSON-LD 1.0 Processing Algorithms and API
* rdf-trig: TriG: RDF Dataset Language
* rdf-xml: RDF 1.1 XML Syntax Specification
* rdf-schema: RDF Vocabulary Description Language 1.1: RDF Schema
* rdf-primer: RDF 1.1 Primer
* rdf-new: What's New in RDF 1.1

== RDF Working Group Status ==

The group has a healthy membership and a set of core participants (about 20) actively contributing to and and reviewing specifications. The mailing list archive (over 6,700 messages) and the tracker (111 issues, 12 of which remain open) are good indicators of the activity of the working group. Oracle, IBM, Google and the Apache Software Foundation are active participants.

Many members have indicated their intention to implement the specifications, suggesting the need for this decadal update to RDF.

Since its launch, the group has released the following working drafts. Four Recommendation-track documents were published as Last Call Working Draft.

{|
! rowspan="2"|Month
! colspan="8"|Rec track
! colspan="2"|Note track
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! rdf-cas
! rdf-sem
! rdf-turtle
! json-ld-syntax
! json-ld-api
! rdf-trig
! rdf-xml
! rdf-schema
! rdf-primer
! rdf-new
|-
| 2011-02
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| 2011-03
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| 2011-04|
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| 2011-05
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| 2011-06
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| 2011-07
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| 2011-08
| [http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-rdf11-concepts-20110830/ FPWD]
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| [http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-turtle-20110809/ FPWD]
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| 2011-09
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| 2011-10
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| 2011-11|
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| 2011-12
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| 2012-01
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| 2012-02
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| 2012-03
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| 2012-05
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| 2012-06
| [http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-rdf11-concepts-20120605/ WD]
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| 2012-07
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| [http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-turtle-20120710/ LC]
| [http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-json-ld-syntax-20120712/ FPWD]
| [http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-json-ld-api-20120712/ FPWD]
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| 2012-08
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| 2012-09
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| 2013-01
| [http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-rdf11-concepts-20130115/ WD]
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| CR expected
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|}

== Deviation from Charter ==

The RDF working group charter identifies eight possible deliverables, all of which of which may be on recommendation track. Dates are expressed in the form T+X, where T is 2011-02, the start of the group activities, and X the number of months.

TODO: Table of deviations

* '''D1''' (RDF 1.1 Concepts and Abstract Syntax) was delayed due to the group's discussions relating to treatment of RDF graphs, datasets and the relationships between them. However, the document has made steady progress and is nearly ready for Last Call status. The document is currently waiting on the first WD of RDF Semantics.
* '''D2''' (RDF 1.1 Semantics) was substantially delayed due to fundamental disagreements within the group. However, all 12 issues have been successfully resolved and the document is now being drafted.
* '''D3''' (RDF/XML Syntax Specification) was determined not to require major changes or updates. Minor errata will be repaired. This document was not completed earlier due to the necessity of gaining consensus on the concepts and semantics issues.
* '''D4''' (RDF Vocabulary Description Language 1.1: RDF Schema) was determined not to require major changes or updates. Minor errata will be repaired. This document was not completed earlier due to the necessity of gaining consensus on the concepts and semantics issues.
* '''D5''' (RDF Turtle Syntax Specification) has proceeded in an orderly fashion. Discussions related to RDF graphs and datasets necessitated the splitting of this deliverable into two documents, Turtle and TriG, as allowed by our charter.
* '''D6''' (RDF JSON Syntax Specification) was returned to the JSON-LD Interest Group for further work for approximately one year until adequately mature. The specification was returned to the RDF WG in June 2012. Work has proceeded consistently since that time.
* '''D7''' (RDF Primer) was delayed due to the necessity of gaining consensus on the concepts and semantics issues.
* '''D8''' (RDF Test Cases) was delayed due to the necessity of gaining consensus on the concepts and semantics issues.

== Proposed Timetable ==

The proposed revised timetable is as follows.

TODO: timetable

== Participation ==

The following participants have indicated their interest in continued participation in the RDF Working Group, and work on implementation (where appropriate) is ongoing:

* David Wood
* Gregg Kellogg
* Guus Schreiber
* Markus Lanthaler
* Peter F. Patel-Schneider
* Eric Prud'hommeaux
* Pat Hayes
* Pierre-Antoine Champin
* Andy Seaborne
* Richard Cyganiak
* Gavin Carother
* Ivan Herman
* Scott Bauer

=== Notes: ===

RDF 1.1 Concepts and Abstract Syntax (Rec WD)

RDF 1.1 Semantics (to Rec)

Turtle: Terse RDF Triple Lanaguage (Rec CR)

JSON-LD 1.0: A JSON-based Serialization for Linked Data (Rec WD)

JSON-LD 1.0 Processing Algorithms and API (Rec WD)

TriG: RDF Dataset Language (Rec ED)

RDF 1.1 XML Syntax Specification (Rec ED)

RDF Vocabulary Description Language 1.1: RDF Schema (Rec ED)

RDF 1.1 Primer (to Note)

What's New in RDF 1.1 (to Note)

F2F3

Sbauer2 — Fri, 17 Aug 2012 17:14:53 GMT

Sbauer2: /* Participants */

MINUTES: [http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-29 Day 1] [http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-30 Day 2]

Scheduled for 29-30 October 2012 at [http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/ TPAC 2012], Lyon, France

See the (closed) poll results at: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46168/FTF-Fall2012/results

== TPAC location and accommodation ==

=== Venue ===

VENUE: CITÉ CENTRE DE CONGRÈS DE LYON
[http://www.ccc-lyon.com/ Cité Centre de Congrès de Lyon]
50, quai Charles de Gaulle
([http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/#Transportation "Musée d'Art Contemporain" on the Trolleybus line C1])
69463 Lyon Cedex 06
France
Tel: +33 4 72 82 26 26
Fax: +33 4 72 82 26 27

=== Accommodations ===

See "Accommodation" section on the [http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/ TPAC page].

'''Please note that no block booking has been made. It is strongly recommended to make hotel reservations as soon as possible as there will be other meetings at the conference center.'''

== Participants ==

; Intend to attend at TPAC (you must [http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/#Registration register]!)
: David Wood

; Intend to attend remotely
: Andy Seaborne
: Gregg Kellogg
: Scott Bauer
; Regrets

; At risk

== Agenda ==

TODO

Chatlog 2012-04-18

Sbauer2 — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:38:46 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
14:58:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-irc
14:59:03 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
14:59:03 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I don't know what conference this is
14:59:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, mischat, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP
14:59:11 <davidwood> Zakim, this will be RDF
14:59:11 <Zakim> ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
14:59:23 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
14:59:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, davidwood
14:59:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, mischat, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP
15:00:30 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is temporarily me
15:00:31 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it
15:00:40 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:00:50 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:50 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:00:53 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:00:53 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:00:59 <Zakim> +EricP
15:01:04 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:01:52 <ScottB> scribe: Scott
15:01:59 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:02 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:04 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:02:04 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
15:02:11 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:02:42 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaaa
15:02:45 <tbaker> tbaker has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:54 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaaa is me
15:02:55 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
15:02:57 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:02:57 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:03:02 <Zakim> +??P21
15:03:08 <Zakim> +Tom_Baker (was ??P21)
15:03:48 <mischat> mischat has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:15 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:04:15 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:04:20 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
15:04:21 <mischat> mischat has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:32 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me
15:04:32 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:05:33 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:05:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, davidwood, ScottB, MacTed, EricP, Sandro, gavinc, zwu2 (muted), Tom_Baker, AlexHall
15:05:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see mischat, tbaker, AlexHall, zwu2, RRSAgent, Zakim, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP
15:06:40 <ScottB> Topic: Meeting Minutes from April 11
15:06:49 <tbaker> +1 accept minutes
15:06:53 <ScottB> Proposed: accept minutes
15:07:14 <ScottB> Resolution: accept the minutes from last week.
15:07:28 <ScottB> Topic: action items
15:07:52 <ScottB> Guus: Gavin do you want to record a new issue.
15:08:00 <ScottB> Gavin: I'd like to but can't
15:08:18 <ScottB> Topic: Turtle LC
15:08:41 <Zakim> +??P27
15:08:43 <ScottB> Guus: Gavin can you comment
15:08:56 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:02 <ScottB> Gavin: I should be able to get the remainder of the minutes in my the next conference
15:09:18 <ScottB> Guus: Just editorial comments no major new issues.
15:09:30 <gavinc> application/n-triples vs. application/ntriples
15:09:38 <ScottB> Gavin: Do we want a dash or comma in the media types?
15:10:08 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:10:16 <ScottB> Guus: no dash you mean. that's 12.1
15:10:36 <ScottB> Gavin: The dashes are used like segment markers.
15:10:53 <ScottB> … not able to find languages that had dashes
15:11:15 <ScottB> … we don't believe any application uses slash n-triples at the moment.
15:11:28 <ScottB> Guus: My intuition -- leave out the dash.
15:11:46 <ScottB> Guus: Sandro can you comment.
15:11:48 <MacTed> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/index.html
15:11:54 <gavinc> example with dash: audio/x-ms-wma application/x-gzip video/x-ms-wmv
15:12:03 <ScottB> Sandro: Maybe a dash is used like a space.
15:12:15 <gavinc> application/x-font-ttf
15:12:24 <sandro> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/index.html
15:12:31 <ScottB> Gavin: there is no code that uses an n-triples media type.
15:12:47 <ScottB> Guus: what will be easiest to remember.
15:13:00 <ScottB> Sandro: how do we write it in the spec.
15:13:12 <ScottB> Gavin: We write it with a dash.
15:13:20 <Zakim> +??P31
15:13:32 <ScottB> Sandro: we call it n hyphen triple
15:13:37 <pfps> zakim, ??P31 is me
15:13:37 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:13:56 <sandro> cwm -n-triples
15:13:57 <ScottB> Gavin: others use it without a dash. use it on the command line.
15:14:00 <sandro> cwm --n-triples
15:14:01 <gavinc> cwm -ntriples
15:14:21 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:14:33 <PatH> Sorry Im late.
15:14:38 <ScottB> Sandro: Should use two dashes if more than one char.
15:14:51 <davidwood> +1
15:14:52 <gavinc> +0
15:14:52 <Souri> +1
15:14:55 <sandro> +1 dash (mildly)
15:14:59 <MacTed> +1
15:15:02 <ScottB> Guus: type a plus one you are in favor of the dash.
15:15:06 <ericP> +1 to —
15:15:10 <gavinc> heh
15:15:26 <Zakim> +PatH
15:15:35 <sandro> +1 to &dash;
15:16:02 <gavinc> Entity 'dash' not defined ;)
15:16:04 <sandro> love some of these mime types, like: vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.drawingml.diagramLayout+xml
15:16:31 <MacTed> ietf-types@iana.org :-)
15:16:41 <gavinc> RESOLVED: Use application/n-triples for content type of N-Triples
15:18:50 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to send mail to ietf-types to request the media type application/n-triples
15:18:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-163 - Send mail to ietf-types to request the media type application/n-triples [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-04-25].
15:18:52 <ScottB> Guus: Part one has been covered before.
15:19:12 <ScottB> … plan for a new draft next week.
15:19:20 <ScottB> Gavin: another week would be nice.
15:19:59 <MacTed> ( mimetype hyphen appears likely acceptable -- http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/remote-printing )
15:20:05 <ScottB> Guus: We recorded a new data 2 may for the new draft to be available
15:20:16 <ScottB> s/data/date
15:20:44 <ScottB> Topic: Named graph semantics
15:21:31 <PatH> whre is that new use case mentioned?
15:21:49 <ScottB> Guus: Ask to write UC Europeana to use case page.
15:22:17 <ScottB> Sandro: I want to understand use cases as a coder. Discussion on this?
15:22:37 <ScottB> Guus: I'll ask one of the authors to join the telecom.
15:22:49 <ScottB> Sandro: ask him to write it first.
15:23:02 <ScottB> … in something a coder can understand.
15:23:18 <ScottB> Guus: It's an enormous amount of data.
15:23:32 <ScottB> … maybe you can ask him a few questions on the list.
15:23:36 <ScottB> Sandro: ok
15:24:14 <ScottB> Guus: They have issues. Art work described by multiple organizations.
15:24:43 <ScottB> subtopic: RDF with Contexts
15:24:59 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/RDFwithContexts
15:25:00 <ScottB> Guus: Thanks to Pat for the wiki page.
15:25:14 <ScottB> … We should start with QA
15:25:22 <ScottB> … session
15:25:29 <davidwood> +1 to PatH for writing this up
15:26:11 <ScottB> Pat: the generalization if of something not necessarily a graph. Deliberately don't restrict the form of that document.
15:26:15 <gavinc> +1000 allowing it to be empty
15:26:30 <davidwood> +1 to allowing empties
15:26:48 <ScottB> … agree on the meaning of the IRIs without specifying what that meaning is.
15:27:02 <sandro> q+
15:27:18 <Guus> ack sandro
15:27:50 <ScottB> Sandro: when will two colleagues publishing about the same thing use IRI's in different ways.
15:28:18 <ScottB> Pat: Data from different sources should be in diff contexts ( some have this perspective)
15:28:41 <ScottB> Sandro: There is a global hypotheses,
15:28:54 <MacTed> q+
15:28:59 <ScottB> Pat: RDF now accepts the global hypothesis.
15:29:26 <davidwood> Accepting a local hypothesis makes *no statement* about the global hypothesis.
15:29:27 <ScottB> Sandro: If the global hypothesis holds you don't need this.
15:29:42 <ScottB> Pat: Still very useful to put one context under another.
15:30:03 <ScottB> … recording this context more can be added.
15:30:28 <ScottB> … one URI can mean progressively finer things as people add to it.
15:30:43 <MacTed> q+ to say the global hypothesis has been disproven already... the challenge is dealing with data that is presented as if it were valid
15:30:48 <ScottB> … even in the global hypothesis things can work this way.
15:30:55 <ScottB> Sandro: an example:
15:31:09 <ScottB> s/example:/example?
15:31:38 <Guus> q?
15:31:54 <ScottB> Pat: You might rely on a more restrictive meaning accidentally.
15:31:59 <davidwood> q+ to provide other examples of violation of the global hypothesis
15:32:27 <ScottB> … easier to use the same term with some restriction.
15:32:42 <sandro> q?
15:32:53 <Guus> ack MacTed
15:32:53 <Zakim> MacTed, you wanted to say the global hypothesis has been disproven already... the challenge is dealing with data that is presented as if it were valid
15:33:09 <ScottB> Ted: the global hypothesis is the ideal but most are not living by it. Local is the way things are.
15:33:57 <ScottB> … it has been disproven. Giving up is appropriate. Lots of data is produced based on it. we have to deal with it.
15:34:05 <ericP> i'm not sure why I use terms like foaf:name if they mean different things to different people
15:34:09 <ericP> what's the point of RDF anyways?
15:34:24 <ScottB> Sandro: The same URI is supposed to mean something different for the two us?
15:34:50 <ScottB> Ted: We may both be wrong. This is the case with owl:sambas.
15:34:51 <sandro> q>
15:34:52 <sandro> q?
15:35:11 <ScottB> s/owl:sambas/owl:sameas
15:35:15 <Guus> ack davidwood
15:35:15 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to provide other examples of violation of the global hypothesis
15:35:16 <pfps> how is owl:sameAs broken???
15:35:23 <ScottB> david: I agree with Ted:
15:35:23 <sandro> sandro: The way to get the genie back in the bottle is Running Code. We'll get there some day.
15:35:58 <Guus> I think the poinnt ewas not that owl:sameAs is broken, just the way it is used
15:36:09 <ScottB> … Data from the data web shoved into a triple store. Using these I use some and pretend others don't exist.
15:36:34 <ScottB> … you're overriding data that you choose.
15:36:46 <Guus> q+
15:36:48 <ScottB> Sandro: Give an example:
15:36:54 <ericP> q?
15:36:57 <Guus> q+ to give an example
15:37:29 <ScottB> David: Import from DBpedia. RDF label in a dozen langs. I strip some or all and replace while reusing the rest of the triples.
15:38:02 <ScottB> Sandro: Global, when you see rdf: label you know what it meant.
15:38:21 <ScottB> Sandro: Would the new label to be true?
15:38:40 <ScottB> David: I think so. I'm gong to make it up or do what I want.
15:38:57 <ScottB> Sandro: That doesn't mean you disagree with the use of the word.
15:39:19 <ScottB> Pat: I think you are right but how do you tell the difference.
15:39:40 <ericP> q+ to ask how we bridge from conventional RDF to a local hypothesis RDF
15:39:43 <ScottB> Sandro: You can handle all in the first possiblity.
15:40:03 <davidwood> What do you mean by "God"?
15:40:45 <ScottB> Pat: You are presenting an extreme local view.
15:41:00 <ScottB> Sandro: how can there be a middle ground?
15:41:21 <Guus> ack EricP
15:41:21 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask how we bridge from conventional RDF to a local hypothesis RDF
15:41:38 <sandro> sandro: Any time you think you belong on the same island, then you could both use the same URI in the global-hypothesis world.
15:41:41 <ScottB> Eric: What mechanism will allow me to merge rdf graphs.
15:42:10 <ScottB> … how would localities agree on how subjects or predicates mean the same thing.
15:42:40 <ScottB> … once the locality is introduced does it require more rigor to make the query.
15:43:27 <ScottB> Pat: A context must be agreed on for a given group.
15:43:53 <ScottB> Sandro: If a larger group -- do they add another context URI.
15:44:15 <sandro> q?
15:44:28 <ScottB> Ted: There's a lot of data out there without context.
15:44:50 <Guus> q-
15:45:02 <ScottB> … we'll have to deal with the fact that it is produced in one context and used in another.
15:45:10 <ScottB> … The assumption is a dirty merge.
15:45:37 <sandro> q+ to say people can be wrong, people can be talking about different points in time, people can be talking about imagined universes, yes. But we can't just give up on the global hypothesis.
15:45:40 <ScottB> … global does not work because we don't have a clean, solid reference of what that is.
15:45:51 <davidwood> ..and the dirty merge is a feature, not a bug. It is critical to the flexibility of RDF.
15:46:08 <ScottB> Pat: If people pretend it does. It will go on as before.
15:46:40 <Guus> q?
15:46:40 <ScottB> … choice can be made to put them into contexts. Just put inheritance tags in place.
15:46:48 <Guus> ack sandro
15:46:49 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say people can be wrong, people can be talking about different points in time, people can be talking about imagined universes, yes. But we can't just give
15:46:49 <Zakim> ... up on the global hypothesis.
15:47:31 <ScottB> Sandro: Anybody who wants to merge with someone else's data has to have a special agreement.
15:48:00 <ScottB> Pat: Tell the world that they have to be careful, so they can check to see if their data is consistant.
15:49:16 <ScottB> Sandro: Vocabularies can allow mix of 14 different properties.
15:50:10 <ScottB> Pat: a Large ontology has used this successfully. You don't get exponential explosions. They resolved ambiguities by introducing contexts.
15:50:58 <ScottB> … they introduced a relationship of covering.
15:51:27 <ScottB> … these things have something in common as defined by a top context.
15:51:55 <ScottB> Sandro: Theres a super property coving the different senses.
15:52:35 <ScottB> Pat: A change in context shifts vocabulary meaning.
15:52:38 <ScottB> S
15:53:04 <ScottB> Sandro: that makes a lot of sense from an NLP perspective.
15:53:28 <pfps> I'm still having a hard time figuring out just why contexts should become part of RDF.
15:53:33 <ScottB> … concerned about what it means in publishing RDF graphs, because you don't know the vocabulary.
15:53:49 <Zakim> -gavinc
15:54:02 <ScottB> Pat: It should be used in a context that changes meaning intended.
15:54:25 <ScottB> Sandro: a little can be done in existing OWL.
15:54:49 <Guus> q?
15:55:08 <ScottB> … a person has a bunch of properties. A person is a professor, there is new meaning. OWL reasoning understands that.
15:55:53 <ScottB> Pat: You can do things like age changes.
15:56:20 <ScottB> Sandro: I'm concerned about vocabularies changing meanings arbitrarily.
15:56:36 <ericP> +1 to "Hieronymus Bosch" description
15:57:02 <ScottB> Ted: Meanings are going to shift regardless.
15:57:56 <ScottB> Ted: AAA means this is going to happen.
15:58:53 <Zakim> +??P26
15:59:01 <pfps> zakim, ??p26 is me
15:59:01 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:59:16 <ScottB> Eric: Introducing of islands of data that I don't trust. No force will stop people from stopping RDF used as now.
16:00:13 <ScottB> … semantics entails new use cans but the complexity doesn't motivate use.
16:00:24 <Guus> q?
16:00:41 <ScottB> … I don't seem context as being marketable.
16:00:53 <ScottB> Pat: It's just one new RDF relation.
16:01:28 <ScottB> Sandro: Everyone in a given group could give a context.
16:01:51 <ScottB> Eric: Adding contexts gets too complicated.
16:02:24 <Guus> Pat: more than 1 context probably means union (not intersection)
16:02:45 <ScottB> … many people want to share terms, there is a transitive connection. Two predicates written by different people and a third connects them.
16:03:50 <ScottB> Ted: A wrong word meaning can be wrapped. Code can swap it out.
16:04:28 <ScottB> Sandro: this doesn't solve change over time by itself.
16:05:22 <ScottB> Pat: Change over time can be described as an updating of a concept. The old terminology continues in use but is updated.
16:05:25 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:05:41 <ScottB> … all you have to do is invent a context and insert old stuff.
16:06:20 <ScottB> Sandro: How is this different from changing the URI to point to new data.
16:06:59 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
16:06:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, davidwood, ScottB, MacTed, EricP, Sandro, Tom_Baker, AlexHall, ??P27, pfps, PatH, pfps.a
16:07:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, pfps, Souri, mischat, tbaker, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP
16:07:14 <ScottB> Eric: If the graph is sealed, a snapshot is in order.
16:07:32 <ScottB> … we
16:07:59 <Guus> q?
16:08:15 <ScottB> Pat: No one is saying you have to stop what you are doing.
16:08:29 <ScottB> … mends some things that are currently broken.
16:09:08 <Guus> q+
16:09:11 <ScottB> Sandro: If you want to say that two graphs can be merged using this context. It means it can't be done otherwise.
16:09:32 <ScottB> … seems like it can't be otherwise.
16:10:01 <ScottB> Pat: the current RDF semantics are the default.
16:10:38 <ScottB> … if you assert in the context, you are being careful. Otherwise URI's are just URI's.
16:11:24 <ScottB> Eric: What it does is it takes the private, illegal formats are being brought into a set of rules where they are.
16:11:27 <sandro> sandro: IF it's stated clearly enough that rdf:inherits is a way to OPT OUT of the global hypothesis, then I think this is an okay experment, and harmless.
16:11:29 <ScottB> ... legal.
16:12:07 <ScottB> Pat: It lets inferior uses into the public.
16:12:10 <sandro> sandro: So this is a sort of Amnesty proposal.
16:13:08 <ScottB> Sandro: I'm ok with this as long as RDF inheritance as a way to opt out is clear.
16:14:17 <sandro> sandro: So this doesn't really solve the owl:sameAs problem.....
16:14:20 <ScottB> … (correction) the default is a way to opt out of the RDF inheritance.
16:14:52 <ScottB> David: what should the default be.
16:15:25 <ScottB> Sandro: the namespace document needs to opt in.
16:15:50 <ScottB> Eric: updating the namespace documents is onerous.
16:16:20 <ScottB> David: there will still be unintentional differences.
16:17:26 <Zakim> -??P27
16:17:27 <ScottB> Zakim, who is here
16:17:27 <Zakim> ScottB, you need to end that query with '?'
16:17:35 <Zakim> -davidwood
16:17:37 <Zakim> -PatH
16:17:38 <sandro> sandro: (switching sides) There's a strong case to be made that people who really mean their RDF, and really read the ontology documentaiton, might opt into that.
16:17:39 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:17:43 <Zakim> -EricP
16:17:44 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:17:45 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:17:47 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:18:06 <davidwood> I don't think *anyone* doesn't mean their RDF.
16:18:15 <MacTed> and then... the ontology on which they based their RDF gets redefined.
16:18:22 <MacTed> uh oh!
16:18:30 <davidwood> Some people just make bad RDF - by my (or others) definition.
16:19:07 <ScottB> rrsagent, generate the minutes
16:19:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-minutes.html ScottB
16:21:20 <ScottB> rrsagent, publish the minutes
16:21:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-minutes.html ScottB
16:25:00 <ScottB> rrsagent, make logs public
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000295
</nowiki></pre>

Chatlog 2012-04-18

Sbauer2 — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:33:59 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
14:58:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-irc
14:59:03 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
14:59:03 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I don't know what conference this is
14:59:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, mischat, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP
14:59:11 <davidwood> Zakim, this will be RDF
14:59:11 <Zakim> ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
14:59:23 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
14:59:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, davidwood
14:59:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, mischat, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP
15:00:30 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is temporarily me
15:00:31 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it
15:00:40 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:00:50 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:50 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:00:53 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:00:53 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:00:59 <Zakim> +EricP
15:01:04 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:01:52 <ScottB> scribe: Scott
15:01:59 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:02 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:04 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:02:04 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
15:02:11 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:02:42 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaaa
15:02:45 <tbaker> tbaker has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:54 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaaa is me
15:02:55 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
15:02:57 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:02:57 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:03:02 <Zakim> +??P21
15:03:08 <Zakim> +Tom_Baker (was ??P21)
15:03:48 <mischat> mischat has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:15 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:04:15 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:04:20 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
15:04:21 <mischat> mischat has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:32 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me
15:04:32 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:05:33 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:05:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, davidwood, ScottB, MacTed, EricP, Sandro, gavinc, zwu2 (muted), Tom_Baker, AlexHall
15:05:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see mischat, tbaker, AlexHall, zwu2, RRSAgent, Zakim, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP
15:06:40 <ScottB> Topic: Meeting Minutes from April 11
15:06:49 <tbaker> +1 accept minutes
15:06:53 <ScottB> Proposed: accept minutes
15:07:14 <ScottB> Resolution: accept the minutes from last night.
15:07:28 <ScottB> Topic: action items
15:07:52 <ScottB> Guus: Gavin do you want to record a new issue.
15:08:00 <ScottB> Gavin: I'd like to but can't
15:08:18 <ScottB> Topic: Turtle LC
15:08:41 <Zakim> +??P27
15:08:43 <ScottB> Guus: Gavin can you comment
15:08:56 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:02 <ScottB> Gavin: I should be able to get the remainder of the minutes in my the next conference
15:09:18 <ScottB> Guus: Just editorial comments no major new issues.
15:09:30 <gavinc> application/n-triples vs. application/ntriples
15:09:38 <ScottB> Gavin: Do we want a dash or comma in the media types?
15:10:08 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:10:16 <ScottB> Guus: no dash you mean. that's 12.1
15:10:36 <ScottB> Gavin: The dashes are used like segment markers.
15:10:53 <ScottB> … not able to find languages that had dashes
15:11:15 <ScottB> … we don't believe any application uses slash n-triples at the moment.
15:11:28 <ScottB> Guus: My intuition -- leave out the dash.
15:11:46 <ScottB> Guus: Sandro can you comment.
15:11:48 <MacTed> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/index.html
15:11:54 <gavinc> example with dash: audio/x-ms-wma application/x-gzip video/x-ms-wmv
15:12:03 <ScottB> Sandro: Maybe a dash is used like a space.
15:12:15 <gavinc> application/x-font-ttf
15:12:24 <sandro> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/index.html
15:12:31 <ScottB> Gavin: there is no code that uses an n-triples media type.
15:12:47 <ScottB> Guus: what will be easiest to remember.
15:13:00 <ScottB> Sandro: how do we write it in the spec.
15:13:12 <ScottB> Gavin: We write it with a dash.
15:13:20 <Zakim> +??P31
15:13:32 <ScottB> Sandro: we call it n hyphen triple
15:13:37 <pfps> zakim, ??P31 is me
15:13:37 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:13:56 <sandro> cwm -n-triples
15:13:57 <ScottB> Gavin: others use it without a dash. use it on the command line.
15:14:00 <sandro> cwm --n-triples
15:14:01 <gavinc> cwm -ntriples
15:14:21 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:14:33 <PatH> Sorry Im late.
15:14:38 <ScottB> Sandro: Should use two dashes if more than one char.
15:14:51 <davidwood> +1
15:14:52 <gavinc> +0
15:14:52 <Souri> +1
15:14:55 <sandro> +1 dash (mildly)
15:14:59 <MacTed> +1
15:15:02 <ScottB> Guus: type a plus one you are in favor of the dash.
15:15:06 <ericP> +1 to —
15:15:10 <gavinc> heh
15:15:26 <Zakim> +PatH
15:15:35 <sandro> +1 to &dash;
15:16:02 <gavinc> Entity 'dash' not defined ;)
15:16:04 <sandro> love some of these mime types, like: vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.drawingml.diagramLayout+xml
15:16:31 <MacTed> ietf-types@iana.org :-)
15:16:41 <gavinc> RESOLVED: Use application/n-triples for content type of N-Triples
15:18:50 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to send mail to ietf-types to request the media type application/n-triples
15:18:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-163 - Send mail to ietf-types to request the media type application/n-triples [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-04-25].
15:18:52 <ScottB> Guus: Part one has been covered before.
15:19:12 <ScottB> … plan for a new draft next week.
15:19:20 <ScottB> Gavin: another week would be nice.
15:19:59 <MacTed> ( mimetype hyphen appears likely acceptable -- http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/remote-printing )
15:20:05 <ScottB> Guus: We recorded a new data 2 may for the new draft to be available
15:20:16 <ScottB> s/data/date
15:20:44 <ScottB> Topic: Named graph semantics
15:21:31 <PatH> whre is that new use case mentioned?
15:21:49 <ScottB> Guus: Ask to write UC Europeana to use case page.
15:22:17 <ScottB> Sandro: I want to understand use cases as a coder. Discussion on this?
15:22:37 <ScottB> Guus: I'll ask one of the authors to join the telecom.
15:22:49 <ScottB> Sandro: ask him to write it first.
15:23:02 <ScottB> … in something a coder can understand.
15:23:18 <ScottB> Guus: It's an enormous amount of data.
15:23:32 <ScottB> … maybe you can ask him a few questions on the list.
15:23:36 <ScottB> Sandro: ok
15:24:14 <ScottB> Guus: They have issues. Art work described by multiple organizations.
15:24:43 <ScottB> subtopic: RDF with Contexts
15:24:59 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/RDFwithContexts
15:25:00 <ScottB> Guus: Thanks to Pat for the wiki page.
15:25:14 <ScottB> … We should start with QA
15:25:22 <ScottB> … session
15:25:29 <davidwood> +1 to PatH for writing this up
15:26:11 <ScottB> Pat: the generalization if of something not necessarily a graph. Deliberately don't restrict the form of that document.
15:26:15 <gavinc> +1000 allowing it to be empty
15:26:30 <davidwood> +1 to allowing empties
15:26:48 <ScottB> … agree on the meaning of the IRIs without specifying what that meaning is.
15:27:02 <sandro> q+
15:27:18 <Guus> ack sandro
15:27:50 <ScottB> Sandro: when will two colleagues publishing about the same thing use IRI's in different ways.
15:28:18 <ScottB> Pat: Data from different sources should be in diff contexts ( some have this perspective)
15:28:41 <ScottB> Sandro: There is a global hypotheses,
15:28:54 <MacTed> q+
15:28:59 <ScottB> Pat: RDF now accepts the global hypothesis.
15:29:26 <davidwood> Accepting a local hypothesis makes *no statement* about the global hypothesis.
15:29:27 <ScottB> Sandro: If the global hypothesis holds you don't need this.
15:29:42 <ScottB> Pat: Still very useful to put one context under another.
15:30:03 <ScottB> … recording this context more can be added.
15:30:28 <ScottB> … one URI can mean progressively finer things as people add to it.
15:30:43 <MacTed> q+ to say the global hypothesis has been disproven already... the challenge is dealing with data that is presented as if it were valid
15:30:48 <ScottB> … even in the global hypothesis things can work this way.
15:30:55 <ScottB> Sandro: an example:
15:31:09 <ScottB> s/example:/example?
15:31:38 <Guus> q?
15:31:54 <ScottB> Pat: You might rely on a more restrictive meaning accidentally.
15:31:59 <davidwood> q+ to provide other examples of violation of the global hypothesis
15:32:27 <ScottB> … easier to use the same term with some restriction.
15:32:42 <sandro> q?
15:32:53 <Guus> ack MacTed
15:32:53 <Zakim> MacTed, you wanted to say the global hypothesis has been disproven already... the challenge is dealing with data that is presented as if it were valid
15:33:09 <ScottB> Ted: the global hypothesis is the ideal but most are not living by it. Local is the way things are.
15:33:57 <ScottB> … it has been disproven. Giving up is appropriate. Lots of data is produced based on it. we have to deal with it.
15:34:05 <ericP> i'm not sure why I use terms like foaf:name if they mean different things to different people
15:34:09 <ericP> what's the point of RDF anyways?
15:34:24 <ScottB> Sandro: The same URI is supposed to mean something different for the two us?
15:34:50 <ScottB> Ted: We may both be wrong. This is the case with owl:sambas.
15:34:51 <sandro> q>
15:34:52 <sandro> q?
15:35:11 <ScottB> s/owl:sambas/owl:sameas
15:35:15 <Guus> ack davidwood
15:35:15 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to provide other examples of violation of the global hypothesis
15:35:16 <pfps> how is owl:sameAs broken???
15:35:23 <ScottB> david: I agree with Ted:
15:35:23 <sandro> sandro: The way to get the genie back in the bottle is Running Code. We'll get there some day.
15:35:58 <Guus> I think the poinnt ewas not that owl:sameAs is broken, just the way it is used
15:36:09 <ScottB> … Data from the data web shoved into a triple store. Using these I use some and pretend others don't exist.
15:36:34 <ScottB> … you're overriding data that you choose.
15:36:46 <Guus> q+
15:36:48 <ScottB> Sandro: Give an example:
15:36:54 <ericP> q?
15:36:57 <Guus> q+ to give an example
15:37:29 <ScottB> David: Import from DBpedia. RDF label in a dozen langs. I strip some or all and replace while reusing the rest of the triples.
15:38:02 <ScottB> Sandro: Global, when you see rdf: label you know what it meant.
15:38:21 <ScottB> Sandro: Would the new label to be true?
15:38:40 <ScottB> David: I think so. I'm gong to make it up or do what I want.
15:38:57 <ScottB> Sandro: That doesn't mean you disagree with the use of the word.
15:39:19 <ScottB> Pat: I think you are right but how do you tell the difference.
15:39:40 <ericP> q+ to ask how we bridge from conventional RDF to a local hypothesis RDF
15:39:43 <ScottB> Sandro: You can handle all in the first possiblity.
15:40:03 <davidwood> What do you mean by "God"?
15:40:45 <ScottB> Pat: You are presenting an extreme local view.
15:41:00 <ScottB> Sandro: how can there be a middle ground?
15:41:21 <Guus> ack EricP
15:41:21 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask how we bridge from conventional RDF to a local hypothesis RDF
15:41:38 <sandro> sandro: Any time you think you belong on the same island, then you could both use the same URI in the global-hypothesis world.
15:41:41 <ScottB> Eric: What mechanism will allow me to merge rdf graphs.
15:42:10 <ScottB> … how would localities agree on how subjects or predicates mean the same thing.
15:42:40 <ScottB> … once the locality is introduced does it require more rigor to make the query.
15:43:27 <ScottB> Pat: A context must be agreed on for a given group.
15:43:53 <ScottB> Sandro: If a larger group -- do they add another context URI.
15:44:15 <sandro> q?
15:44:28 <ScottB> Ted: There's a lot of data out there without context.
15:44:50 <Guus> q-
15:45:02 <ScottB> … we'll have to deal with the fact that it is produced in one context and used in another.
15:45:10 <ScottB> … The assumption is a dirty merge.
15:45:37 <sandro> q+ to say people can be wrong, people can be talking about different points in time, people can be talking about imagined universes, yes. But we can't just give up on the global hypothesis.
15:45:40 <ScottB> … global does not work because we don't have a clean, solid reference of what that is.
15:45:51 <davidwood> ..and the dirty merge is a feature, not a bug. It is critical to the flexibility of RDF.
15:46:08 <ScottB> Pat: If people pretend it does. It will go on as before.
15:46:40 <Guus> q?
15:46:40 <ScottB> … choice can be made to put them into contexts. Just put inheritance tags in place.
15:46:48 <Guus> ack sandro
15:46:49 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say people can be wrong, people can be talking about different points in time, people can be talking about imagined universes, yes. But we can't just give
15:46:49 <Zakim> ... up on the global hypothesis.
15:47:31 <ScottB> Sandro: Anybody who wants to merge with someone else's data has to have a special agreement.
15:48:00 <ScottB> Pat: Tell the world that they have to be careful, so they can check to see if their data is consistant.
15:49:16 <ScottB> Sandro: Vocabularies can allow mix of 14 different properties.
15:50:10 <ScottB> Pat: a Large ontology has used this successfully. You don't get exponential explosions. They resolved ambiguities by introducing contexts.
15:50:58 <ScottB> … they introduced a relationship of covering.
15:51:27 <ScottB> … these things have something in common as defined by a top context.
15:51:55 <ScottB> Sandro: Theres a super property coving the different senses.
15:52:35 <ScottB> Pat: A change in context shifts vocabulary meaning.
15:52:38 <ScottB> S
15:53:04 <ScottB> Sandro: that makes a lot of sense from an NLP perspective.
15:53:28 <pfps> I'm still having a hard time figuring out just why contexts should become part of RDF.
15:53:33 <ScottB> … concerned about what it means in publishing RDF graphs, because you don't know the vocabulary.
15:53:49 <Zakim> -gavinc
15:54:02 <ScottB> Pat: It should be used in a context that changes meaning intended.
15:54:25 <ScottB> Sandro: a little can be done in existing OWL.
15:54:49 <Guus> q?
15:55:08 <ScottB> … a person has a bunch of properties. A person is a professor, there is new meaning. OWL reasoning understands that.
15:55:53 <ScottB> Pat: You can do things like age changes.
15:56:20 <ScottB> Sandro: I'm concerned about vocabularies changing meanings arbitrarily.
15:56:36 <ericP> +1 to "Hieronymus Bosch" description
15:57:02 <ScottB> Ted: Meanings are going to shift regardless.
15:57:56 <ScottB> Ted: AAA means this is going to happen.
15:58:53 <Zakim> +??P26
15:59:01 <pfps> zakim, ??p26 is me
15:59:01 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:59:16 <ScottB> Eric: Introducing of islands of data that I don't trust. No force will stop people from stopping RDF used as now.
16:00:13 <ScottB> … semantics entails new use cans but the complexity doesn't motivate use.
16:00:24 <Guus> q?
16:00:41 <ScottB> … I don't seem context as being marketable.
16:00:53 <ScottB> Pat: It's just one new RDF relation.
16:01:28 <ScottB> Sandro: Everyone in a given group could give a context.
16:01:51 <ScottB> Eric: Adding contexts gets too complicated.
16:02:24 <Guus> Pat: more than 1 context probably means union (not intersection)
16:02:45 <ScottB> … many people want to share terms, there is a transitive connection. Two predicates written by different people and a third connects them.
16:03:50 <ScottB> Ted: A wrong word meaning can be wrapped. Code can swap it out.
16:04:28 <ScottB> Sandro: this doesn't solve change over time by itself.
16:05:22 <ScottB> Pat: Change over time can be described as an updating of a concept. The old terminology continues in use but is updated.
16:05:25 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:05:41 <ScottB> … all you have to do is invent a context and insert old stuff.
16:06:20 <ScottB> Sandro: How is this different from changing the URI to point to new data.
16:06:59 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
16:06:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, davidwood, ScottB, MacTed, EricP, Sandro, Tom_Baker, AlexHall, ??P27, pfps, PatH, pfps.a
16:07:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, pfps, Souri, mischat, tbaker, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP
16:07:14 <ScottB> Eric: If the graph is sealed, a snapshot is in order.
16:07:32 <ScottB> … we
16:07:59 <Guus> q?
16:08:15 <ScottB> Pat: No one is saying you have to stop what you are doing.
16:08:29 <ScottB> … mends some things that are currently broken.
16:09:08 <Guus> q+
16:09:11 <ScottB> Sandro: If you want to say that two graphs can be merged using this context. It means it can't be done otherwise.
16:09:32 <ScottB> … seems like it can't be otherwise.
16:10:01 <ScottB> Pat: the current RDF semantics are the default.
16:10:38 <ScottB> … if you assert in the context, you are being careful. Otherwise URI's are just URI's.
16:11:24 <ScottB> Eric: What it does is it takes the private, illegal formats are being brought into a set of rules where they are.
16:11:27 <sandro> sandro: IF it's stated clearly enough that rdf:inherits is a way to OPT OUT of the global hypothesis, then I think this is an okay experment, and harmless.
16:11:29 <ScottB> ... legal.
16:12:07 <ScottB> Pat: It lets inferior uses into the public.
16:12:10 <sandro> sandro: So this is a sort of Amnesty proposal.
16:13:08 <ScottB> Sandro: I'm ok with this as long as RDF inheritance as a way to opt out is clear.
16:14:17 <sandro> sandro: So this doesn't really solve the owl:sameAs problem.....
16:14:20 <ScottB> … (correction) the default is a way to opt out of the RDF inheritance.
16:14:52 <ScottB> David: what should the default be.
16:15:25 <ScottB> Sandro: the namespace document needs to opt in.
16:15:50 <ScottB> Eric: updating the namespace documents is onerous.
16:16:20 <ScottB> David: there will still be unintentional differences.
16:17:26 <Zakim> -??P27
16:17:27 <ScottB> Zakim, who is here
16:17:27 <Zakim> ScottB, you need to end that query with '?'
16:17:35 <Zakim> -davidwood
16:17:37 <Zakim> -PatH
16:17:38 <sandro> sandro: (switching sides) There's a strong case to be made that people who really mean their RDF, and really read the ontology documentaiton, might opt into that.
16:17:39 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:17:43 <Zakim> -EricP
16:17:44 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:17:45 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:17:47 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:18:06 <davidwood> I don't think *anyone* doesn't mean their RDF.
16:18:15 <MacTed> and then... the ontology on which they based their RDF gets redefined.
16:18:22 <MacTed> uh oh!
16:18:30 <davidwood> Some people just make bad RDF - by my (or others) definition.
16:19:07 <ScottB> rrsagent, generate the minutes
16:19:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-minutes.html ScottB
16:21:20 <ScottB> rrsagent, publish the minutes
16:21:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-minutes.html ScottB
16:25:00 <ScottB> rrsagent, make logs public
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000295
</nowiki></pre>

Chatlog 2012-04-18

Sbauer2 — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:31:22 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
14:58:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-irc
14:59:03 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
14:59:03 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I don't know what conference this is
14:59:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, mischat, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP
14:59:11 <davidwood> Zakim, this will be RDF
14:59:11 <Zakim> ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
14:59:23 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
14:59:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, davidwood
14:59:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, mischat, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP
15:00:30 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is temporarily me
15:00:31 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it
15:00:40 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:00:50 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:50 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:00:53 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:00:53 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:00:59 <Zakim> +EricP
15:01:04 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:01:52 <ScottB> scribe: Scott
15:01:59 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:02 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:04 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:02:04 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
15:02:11 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:02:42 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaaa
15:02:45 <tbaker> tbaker has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:54 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaaa is me
15:02:55 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
15:02:57 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:02:57 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:03:02 <Zakim> +??P21
15:03:08 <Zakim> +Tom_Baker (was ??P21)
15:03:48 <mischat> mischat has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:15 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:04:15 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:04:20 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
15:04:21 <mischat> mischat has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:32 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me
15:04:32 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:05:33 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:05:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, davidwood, ScottB, MacTed, EricP, Sandro, gavinc, zwu2 (muted), Tom_Baker, AlexHall
15:05:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see mischat, tbaker, AlexHall, zwu2, RRSAgent, Zakim, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP
15:06:40 <ScottB> Topic: Meeting Minutes from April 11
15:06:49 <tbaker> +1 accept minutes
15:06:53 <ScottB> Proposed: accept minutes
15:07:14 <ScottB> Resolution: accept the minutes from last night.
15:07:28 <ScottB> Topic: action items
15:07:52 <ScottB> Guus: Gavin do you want to record a new issue.
15:08:00 <ScottB> Gavin: I'd like to but can't
15:08:18 <ScottB> Topic: Turtle LC
15:08:41 <Zakim> +??P27
15:08:43 <ScottB> Guus: Gavin can you comment
15:08:56 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:02 <ScottB> Gavin: I should be able to get the remainder of the minutes in my the next conference
15:09:18 <ScottB> Guus: Just editorial comments no major new issues.
15:09:30 <gavinc> application/n-triples vs. application/ntriples
15:09:38 <ScottB> Gavin: Do we want a dash or comma in the media types?
15:10:08 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:10:16 <ScottB> Guus: no dash you mean. that's 12.1
15:10:36 <ScottB> Gavin: The dashes are used like segment markers.
15:10:53 <ScottB> … not able to find languages that had dashes
15:11:15 <ScottB> … we don't believe any application uses slash n-triples at the moment.
15:11:28 <ScottB> Guus: My intuition -- leave out the dash.
15:11:46 <ScottB> Guus: Sandro can you comment.
15:11:48 <MacTed> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/index.html
15:11:54 <gavinc> example with dash: audio/x-ms-wma application/x-gzip video/x-ms-wmv
15:12:03 <ScottB> Sandro: Maybe a dash is used like a space.
15:12:15 <gavinc> application/x-font-ttf
15:12:24 <sandro> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/index.html
15:12:31 <ScottB> Gavin: there is no code that uses an n-triples media type.
15:12:47 <ScottB> Guus: what will be easiest to remember.
15:13:00 <ScottB> Sandro: how do we write it in the spec.
15:13:12 <ScottB> Gavin: We write it with a dash.
15:13:20 <Zakim> +??P31
15:13:32 <ScottB> Sandro: we call it n hyphen triple
15:13:37 <pfps> zakim, ??P31 is me
15:13:37 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:13:56 <sandro> cwm -n-triples
15:13:57 <ScottB> Gavin: others use it without a dash. use it on the command line.
15:14:00 <sandro> cwm --n-triples
15:14:01 <gavinc> cwm -ntriples
15:14:21 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:14:33 <PatH> Sorry Im late.
15:14:38 <ScottB> Sandro: Should use two dashes if more than one char.
15:14:51 <davidwood> +1
15:14:52 <gavinc> +0
15:14:52 <Souri> +1
15:14:55 <sandro> +1 dash (mildly)
15:14:59 <MacTed> +1
15:15:02 <ScottB> Guus: type a plus one you are in favor of the dash.
15:15:06 <ericP> +1 to —
15:15:10 <gavinc> heh
15:15:26 <Zakim> +PatH
15:15:35 <sandro> +1 to &dash;
15:16:02 <gavinc> Entity 'dash' not defined ;)
15:16:04 <sandro> love some of these mime types, like: vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.drawingml.diagramLayout+xml
15:16:31 <MacTed> ietf-types@iana.org :-)
15:16:41 <gavinc> RESOLVED: Use application/n-triples for content type of N-Triples
15:18:50 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to send mail to ietf-types to request the media type application/n-triples
15:18:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-163 - Send mail to ietf-types to request the media type application/n-triples [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-04-25].
15:18:52 <ScottB> Guus: Part one has been covered before.
15:19:12 <ScottB> … plan for a new draft next week.
15:19:20 <ScottB> Gavin: another week would be nice.
15:19:59 <MacTed> ( mimetype hyphen appears likely acceptable -- http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/remote-printing )
15:20:05 <ScottB> Guus: We recorded a new data 2 may for the new draft to be available
15:20:16 <ScottB> s/data/date
15:20:44 <ScottB> Topic: Named graph semantics
15:21:31 <PatH> whre is that new use case mentioned?
15:21:49 <ScottB> Guus: Ask to write UC Europeana to use case page.
15:22:17 <ScottB> Sandro: I want to understand use cases as a coder. Discussion on this?
15:22:37 <ScottB> Guus: I'll ask one of the authors to join the telecom.
15:22:49 <ScottB> Sandro: ask him to write it first.
15:23:02 <ScottB> … in something a coder can understand.
15:23:18 <ScottB> Guus: It's an enormous amount of data.
15:23:32 <ScottB> … maybe you can ask him a few questions on the list.
15:23:36 <ScottB> Sandro: ok
15:24:14 <ScottB> Guus: They have issues. Art work described by multiple organizations.
15:24:43 <ScottB> subtopic: RDF with Contexts
15:24:59 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/RDFwithContexts
15:25:00 <ScottB> Guus: Thanks to Pat for the wiki page.
15:25:14 <ScottB> … We should start with QA
15:25:22 <ScottB> … session
15:25:29 <davidwood> +1 to PatH for writing this up
15:26:11 <ScottB> Pat: the generalization if of something not necessarily a graph. Deliberately don't restrict the form of that document.
15:26:15 <gavinc> +1000 allowing it to be empty
15:26:30 <davidwood> +1 to allowing empties
15:26:48 <ScottB> … agree on the meaning of the IRIs without specifying what that meaning is.
15:27:02 <sandro> q+
15:27:18 <Guus> ack sandro
15:27:50 <ScottB> Sandro: when will two colleagues publishing about the same thing use IRI's in different ways.
15:28:18 <ScottB> Pat: Data from different sources should be in diff contexts ( some have this perspective)
15:28:41 <ScottB> Sandro: There is a global hypotheses,
15:28:54 <MacTed> q+
15:28:59 <ScottB> Pat: RDF now accepts the global hypothesis.
15:29:26 <davidwood> Accepting a local hypothesis makes *no statement* about the global hypothesis.
15:29:27 <ScottB> Sandro: If the global hypothesis holds you don't need this.
15:29:42 <ScottB> Pat: Still very useful to put one context under another.
15:30:03 <ScottB> … recording this context more can be added.
15:30:28 <ScottB> … one URI can mean progressively finer things as people add to it.
15:30:43 <MacTed> q+ to say the global hypothesis has been disproven already... the challenge is dealing with data that is presented as if it were valid
15:30:48 <ScottB> … even in the global hypothesis things can work this way.
15:30:55 <ScottB> Sandro: an example:
15:31:09 <ScottB> s/example:/example?
15:31:38 <Guus> q?
15:31:54 <ScottB> Pat: You might rely on a more restrictive meaning accidentally.
15:31:59 <davidwood> q+ to provide other examples of violation of the global hypothesis
15:32:27 <ScottB> … easier to use the same term with some restriction.
15:32:42 <sandro> q?
15:32:53 <Guus> ack MacTed
15:32:53 <Zakim> MacTed, you wanted to say the global hypothesis has been disproven already... the challenge is dealing with data that is presented as if it were valid
15:33:09 <ScottB> Ted: the global hypothesis is the ideal but most are not living by it. Local is the way things are.
15:33:57 <ScottB> … it has been disproven. Giving up is appropriate. Lots of data is produced based on it. we have to deal with it.
15:34:05 <ericP> i'm not sure why I use terms like foaf:name if they mean different things to different people
15:34:09 <ericP> what's the point of RDF anyways?
15:34:24 <ScottB> Sandro: The same URI is supposed to mean something different for the two us?
15:34:50 <ScottB> Ted: We may both be wrong. This is the case with owl:sambas.
15:34:51 <sandro> q>
15:34:52 <sandro> q?
15:35:11 <ScottB> s/owl:sambas/owl:sameas
15:35:15 <Guus> ack davidwood
15:35:15 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to provide other examples of violation of the global hypothesis
15:35:16 <pfps> how is owl:sameAs broken???
15:35:23 <ScottB> david: I agree with Ted:
15:35:23 <sandro> sandro: The way to get the genie back in the bottle is Running Code. We'll get there some day.
15:35:58 <Guus> I think the poinnt ewas not that owl:sameAs is broken, just the way it is used
15:36:09 <ScottB> … Data from the data web shoved into a triple store. Using these I use some and pretend others don't exist.
15:36:34 <ScottB> … you're overriding data that you choose.
15:36:46 <Guus> q+
15:36:48 <ScottB> Sandro: Give an example:
15:36:54 <ericP> q?
15:36:57 <Guus> q+ to give an example
15:37:29 <ScottB> David: Import from DBpedia. RDF label in a dozen langs. I strip some or all and replace while reusing the rest of the triples.
15:38:02 <ScottB> Sandro: Global, when you see rdf: label you know what it meant.
15:38:21 <ScottB> Sandro: Would the new label to be true?
15:38:40 <ScottB> David: I think so. I'm gong to make it up or do what I want.
15:38:57 <ScottB> Sandro: That doesn't mean you disagree with the use of the word.
15:39:19 <ScottB> Pat: I think you are right but how do you tell the difference.
15:39:40 <ericP> q+ to ask how we bridge from conventional RDF to a local hypothesis RDF
15:39:43 <ScottB> Sandro: You can handle all in the first possiblity.
15:40:03 <davidwood> What do you mean by "God"?
15:40:45 <ScottB> Pat: You are presenting an extreme local view.
15:41:00 <ScottB> Sandro: how can there be a middle ground?
15:41:21 <Guus> ack EricP
15:41:21 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask how we bridge from conventional RDF to a local hypothesis RDF
15:41:38 <sandro> sandro: Any time you think you belong on the same island, then you could both use the same URI in the global-hypothesis world.
15:41:41 <ScottB> Eric: What mechanism will allow me to merge rdf graphs.
15:42:10 <ScottB> … how would localities agree on how subjects or predicates mean the same thing.
15:42:40 <ScottB> … once the locality is introduced does it require more rigor to make the query.
15:43:27 <ScottB> Pat: A context must be agreed on for a given group.
15:43:53 <ScottB> Sandro: If a larger group -- do they add another context URI.
15:44:15 <sandro> q?
15:44:28 <ScottB> Ted: There's a lot of data out there without context.
15:44:50 <Guus> q-
15:45:02 <ScottB> … we'll have to deal with the fact that it is produced in one context and used in another.
15:45:10 <ScottB> … The assumption is a dirty merge.
15:45:37 <sandro> q+ to say people can be wrong, people can be talking about different points in time, people can be talking about imagined universes, yes. But we can't just give up on the global hypothesis.
15:45:40 <ScottB> … global does not work because we don't have a clean, solid reference of what that is.
15:45:51 <davidwood> ..and the dirty merge is a feature, not a bug. It is critical to the flexibility of RDF.
15:46:08 <ScottB> Pat: If people pretend it does. It will go on as before.
15:46:40 <Guus> q?
15:46:40 <ScottB> … choice can be made to put them into contexts. Just put inheritance tags in place.
15:46:48 <Guus> ack sandro
15:46:49 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say people can be wrong, people can be talking about different points in time, people can be talking about imagined universes, yes. But we can't just give
15:46:49 <Zakim> ... up on the global hypothesis.
15:47:31 <ScottB> Sandro: Anybody who wants to merge with someone else's data has to have a special agreement.
15:48:00 <ScottB> Pat: Tell the world that they have to be careful, so they can check to see if their data is consistant.
15:49:16 <ScottB> Sandro: Vocabularies can allow mix of 14 different properties.
15:50:10 <ScottB> Pat: a Large ontology has used this successfully. You don't get exponential explosions. They resolved ambiguities by introducing contexts.
15:50:58 <ScottB> … they introduced a relationship of covering.
15:51:27 <ScottB> … these things have something in common as defined by a top context.
15:51:55 <ScottB> Sandro: Theres a super property coving the different senses.
15:52:35 <ScottB> Pat: A change in context shifts vocabulary meaning.
15:52:38 <ScottB> S
15:53:04 <ScottB> Sandro: that makes a lot of sense from an NLP perspective.
15:53:28 <pfps> I'm still having a hard time figuring out just why contexts should become part of RDF.
15:53:33 <ScottB> … concerned about what it means in publishing RDF graphs, because you don't know the vocabulary.
15:53:49 <Zakim> -gavinc
15:54:02 <ScottB> Pat: It should be used in a context that changes meaning intended.
15:54:25 <ScottB> Sandro: a little can be done in existing OWL.
15:54:49 <Guus> q?
15:55:08 <ScottB> … a person has a bunch of properties. A person is a professor, there is new meaning. OWL reasoning understands that.
15:55:53 <ScottB> Pat: You can do things like age changes.
15:56:20 <ScottB> Sandro: I'm concerned about vocabularies changing meanings arbitrarily.
15:56:36 <ericP> +1 to "Hieronymus Bosch" description
15:57:02 <ScottB> Ted: Meanings are going to shift regardless.
15:57:56 <ScottB> Ted: AAA means this is going to happen.
15:58:53 <Zakim> +??P26
15:59:01 <pfps> zakim, ??p26 is me
15:59:01 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:59:16 <ScottB> Eric: Introducing of islands of data that I don't trust. No force will stop people from stopping RDF used as now.
16:00:13 <ScottB> … semantics entails new use cans but the complexity doesn't motivate use.
16:00:24 <Guus> q?
16:00:41 <ScottB> … I don't seem context as being marketable.
16:00:53 <ScottB> Pat: It's just one new RDF relation.
16:01:28 <ScottB> Sandro: Everyone in a given group could give a context.
16:01:51 <ScottB> Eric: Adding contexts gets too complicated.
16:02:24 <Guus> Pat: more than 1 context probably means union (not intersection)
16:02:45 <ScottB> … many people want to share terms, there is a transitive connection. Two predicates written by different people and a third connects them.
16:03:50 <ScottB> Ted: A wrong word meaning can be wrapped. Code can swap it out.
16:04:28 <ScottB> Sandro: this doesn't solve change over time by itself.
16:05:22 <ScottB> Pat: Change over time can be described as an updating of a concept. The old terminology continues in use but is updated.
16:05:25 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:05:41 <ScottB> … all you have to do is invent a context and insert old stuff.
16:06:20 <ScottB> Sandro: How is this different from changing the URI to point to new data.
16:06:59 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
16:06:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, davidwood, ScottB, MacTed, EricP, Sandro, Tom_Baker, AlexHall, ??P27, pfps, PatH, pfps.a
16:07:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, pfps, Souri, mischat, tbaker, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP
16:07:14 <ScottB> Eric: If the graph is sealed, a snapshot is in order.
16:07:32 <ScottB> … we
16:07:59 <Guus> q?
16:08:15 <ScottB> Pat: No one is saying you have to stop what you are doing.
16:08:29 <ScottB> … mends some things that are currently broken.
16:09:08 <Guus> q+
16:09:11 <ScottB> Sandro: If you want to say that two graphs can be merged using this context. It means it can't be done otherwise.
16:09:32 <ScottB> … seems like it can't be otherwise.
16:10:01 <ScottB> Pat: the current RDF semantics are the default.
16:10:38 <ScottB> … if you assert in the context, you are being careful. Otherwise URI's are just URI's.
16:11:24 <ScottB> Eric: What it does is it takes the private, illegal formats are being brought into a set of rules where they are.
16:11:27 <sandro> sandro: IF it's stated clearly enough that rdf:inherits is a way to OPT OUT of the global hypothesis, then I think this is an okay experment, and harmless.
16:11:29 <ScottB> ... legal.
16:12:07 <ScottB> Pat: It lets inferior uses into the public.
16:12:10 <sandro> sandro: So this is a sort of Amnesty proposal.
16:13:08 <ScottB> Sandro: I'm ok with this as long as RDF inheritance as a way to opt out is clear.
16:14:17 <sandro> sandro: So this doesn't really solve the owl:sameAs problem.....
16:14:20 <ScottB> … (correction) the default is a way to opt out of the RDF inheritance.
16:14:52 <ScottB> David: what should the default be.
16:15:25 <ScottB> Sandro: the namespace document needs to opt in.
16:15:50 <ScottB> Eric: updating the namespace documents is onerous.
16:16:20 <ScottB> David: there will still be unintentional differences.
16:17:26 <Zakim> -??P27
16:17:27 <ScottB> Zakim, who is here
16:17:27 <Zakim> ScottB, you need to end that query with '?'
16:17:35 <Zakim> -davidwood
16:17:36 <Zakim> -Tom_Baker
16:17:37 <Zakim> -PatH
16:17:38 <sandro> sandro: (switching sides) There's a strong case to be made that people who really mean their RDF, and really read the ontology documentaiton, might opt into that.
16:17:39 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:17:43 <Zakim> -EricP
16:17:44 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:17:45 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:17:47 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:17:54 <Zakim> -pfps.a
16:18:06 <davidwood> I don't think *anyone* doesn't mean their RDF.
16:18:15 <MacTed> and then... the ontology on which they based their RDF gets redefined.
16:18:22 <MacTed> uh oh!
16:18:30 <davidwood> Some people just make bad RDF - by my (or others) definition.
16:19:07 <ScottB> rrsagent, generate the minutes
16:19:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-minutes.html ScottB
16:21:20 <ScottB> rrsagent, publish the minutes
16:21:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-minutes.html ScottB
16:25:00 <ScottB> rrsagent, make logs public
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000295
</nowiki></pre>

Chatlog 2012-02-15

Sbauer2 — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 17:29:56 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2012/02/15-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
15:58:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/15-rdf-wg-irc
15:58:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:58:58 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
15:59:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
15:59:01 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:59:01 <trackbot> Date: 15 February 2012
15:59:41 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:45 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:45 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS
15:59:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood, manu, trackbot, sandro,
15:59:46 <Zakim> ... ericP
15:59:52 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
15:59:52 <Zakim> sorry, gavinc, I don't know what conference this is
16:00:01 <gavinc> Zakim, this is SW_RDFWG
16:00:01 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
16:00:03 <AndyS> zakim, this is 73394
16:00:03 <Zakim> AndyS, this was already SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
16:00:05 <Zakim> ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
16:00:12 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Guus, [IPcaller], gavinc, ScottB
16:00:17 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P3 is me
16:00:17 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
16:00:18 <Zakim> +PatH
16:00:23 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
16:00:23 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
16:00:24 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:00:35 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:38 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
16:00:39 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
16:00:39 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:00:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:51 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
16:00:52 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:00:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Guus, gavinc (muted), ScottB, PatH, cygri, [IPcaller]
16:00:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood, manu, trackbot,
16:00:52 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP
16:00:55 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
16:00:56 <Zakim> +David_Wood
16:01:12 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:20 <Zakim> +??P14
16:01:29 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aaaa
16:01:39 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:44 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:01:44 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:01:45 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:01:56 <Arnaud> Zakim, *aaaa is me
16:01:56 <Zakim> sorry, Arnaud, I do not recognize a party named '*aaaa'
16:02:03 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
16:02:12 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me
16:02:12 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
16:02:19 <Arnaud> zakim, aaaa is me
16:02:19 <Zakim> +Arnaud; got it
16:02:37 <AZ> \me zakim, ??P14 is me
16:03:18 <Zakim> +EricP
16:03:19 <ScottB> Scribe: ScottB
16:03:44 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 Feb telecon:
16:03:44 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08
16:03:52 <ScottB> Topic: Meetings from minutes last week
16:04:25 <ScottB> David: closing issue or action 166 which doesn't exist
16:04:56 <ScottB> … this is issue 66
16:05:21 <ScottB> … this issue is updated
16:06:29 <Arnaud> this was an interesting statement "I see you on the phone but I don't hear you" :)
16:06:46 <ScottB> … will have to forgo accepting these minutes till later
16:06:58 <davidwood> We will wait on the minutes of 8 Feb until they are cleaned up.
16:07:07 <davidwood> Action item review:
16:07:07 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item
16:07:07 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:07:07 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
16:07:15 <ScottB> Topic: Action item review
16:07:45 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs#TriG.2Fstate
16:07:59 <ScottB> David: Action-145 merge page with Sandros. believe this is complete
16:08:09 <davidwood> close Action-145
16:08:09 <trackbot> ACTION-145 Merge his page with Sandro's closed
16:08:12 <Zakim> -Guus
16:08:32 <ScottB> Alex: back to action 166 could be 136
16:08:41 <ScottB> … closed last week.
16:08:54 <Zakim> +Guus
16:09:18 <ScottB> David: Eric will you edit the minutes to reflect this.
16:09:34 <ScottB> Eric: I'll try to do this
16:10:06 <AlexHall> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Chatlog_2012-02-08
16:11:14 <ScottB> David: open actions that are past due.
16:11:26 <ScottB> … quite a few are overdue.
16:12:33 <Zakim> +danbri
16:13:15 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08 now reflects the s/166/136/ change
16:13:16 <davidwood> close Action-137
16:13:16 <trackbot> ACTION-137 Write down an example of the syntaxes for the named graphs closed
16:13:27 <ScottB> Scott is leaving the actions unscibed hoping thats the right thing to do.
16:14:46 <davidwood> close Action-142
16:14:46 <trackbot> ACTION-142 Repsond to multiline comments comment of Danny Ayres closed
16:16:35 <ScottB> David: there is an agenda item for action 143
16:16:49 <davidwood> close Action-143
16:16:49 <trackbot> ACTION-143 Propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* unescaped while parsing Turtle closed
16:17:14 <ericP> [[
16:17:15 <ericP> The <PERCENT> terminal matches %-encoding sequences. These sequences are not decoded during processing; a term written as <http://a.example/%66oo\-bar> in Turtle designates the RDF IRI http://a.example/%66oo-bar.
16:17:20 <ericP> ]]
16:17:44 <cygri> i think my ACTION-138 and ACTION-117 can also be closed
16:18:35 <gavinc> ericP, change from http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf to https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf
16:18:37 <davidwood> close Action-117
16:18:37 <trackbot> ACTION-117 Check status of duration datatypes closed
16:18:56 <davidwood> Action-138
16:19:03 <davidwood> close Action-138
16:19:03 <trackbot> ACTION-138 Ask the group whether it needs to do anything about http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/ closed
16:19:26 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 Feb telecon:
16:19:26 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08
16:19:27 <ScottB> David: back to the minutes
16:19:44 <ScottB> RESOLVED: last weeks minutes accepted
16:20:21 <ScottB> Topic: Turtle
16:21:27 <ScottB> Eric: the copy paste is just one issue. treat the as an opaque string.
16:21:36 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/rdf/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings
16:22:03 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings
16:23:14 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:23:18 <ScottB> … the other issue turtle strings and iri can use escape sequences. two types: one in the table listed and let char through otherwise thought of as punctuation.
16:23:19 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:23:19 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:23:20 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:23:20 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:23:25 <AndyS> We are going to remove \t etc from IRIs (I hope!). ie. strings, IRI and prefixed name have different scape rules in the detail.
16:23:32 <AndyS> q+
16:23:41 <ScottB> … clarifies that there is two types of escaping.
16:23:45 <davidwood> ack AndyS
16:23:47 <gavinc> Zakim, unmute me
16:23:47 <Zakim> gavinc should no longer be muted
16:24:13 <ScottB> Andy: suggest we take tab reline and double quote out of iris
16:24:49 <PatH> do we have authority over iri syntax?
16:25:01 <ScottB> … three kinds of escapes. code points, white space and double quotes.
16:25:19 <ScottB> Gavin: the backslash quote is only in some string productions.
16:25:36 <ScottB> Andy: It's clear which bits are which elements.
16:26:00 <ScottB> Gavin: match the grammer
16:26:14 <ScottB> Eric: this text is out of sync.
16:26:42 <ScottB> Action: Eric to propose by next week text that replaces section 4.3
16:26:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-147 - Propose by next week text that replaces section 4.3 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-22].
16:26:47 <PatH> grammars rule.
16:28:17 <ericP> <http://a.example/%66oo\-bar> in Turtle designates the RDF IRI http://a.example/%66oo-bar
16:28:23 <ScottB> Eric: wrote an example
16:28:57 <davidwood> q?
16:29:09 <ScottB> … will pick one approach and propose it.
16:29:21 <ScottB> Topic: Named Graphs
16:29:53 <Guus> q+
16:29:53 <ScottB> David: I'd like a brief discussion on how to use the next 45 minutes.
16:30:05 <davidwood> ack Guus
16:30:40 <ScottB> Guus: Discuss the solution design page started by Sandro and go over Pat's email.
16:30:57 <ScottB> Andy: I'd like to hear what everyone's thinking.
16:31:03 <Guus> +1
16:31:58 <ScottB> David: I think we have a lot of different use cases. Not clear what the field of perspectives are. Slow progress in understanding perspectives.
16:32:16 <ScottB> … I have some hope that Pat's proposal will move us forward.
16:32:52 <Guus> +1000
16:32:56 <ScottB> Pat: We shouldn't have expected this would have been fixed quickly.
16:33:12 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:33:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, gavinc, ScottB, PatH, cygri, AndyS, David_Wood, AZ, Arnaud (muted), Ivan, AlexHall, EricP, Guus, danbri, MacTed (muted)
16:33:26 <ScottB> Richard: I would be ok with the minimalist proposal.
16:33:51 <ScottB> … look at how the proposals will work with deployed practice.
16:34:39 <pfps> +1 to Richard's minimalism, but I will to see a painting before I am sure
16:35:10 <ScottB> David: Two things inviolate, not chartered to break rdf. Does us no good to listen and change considerations.
16:35:38 <davidwood> s/change/not change/
16:36:17 <cygri> q+
16:36:17 <ScottB> Pat: I agree about making minimal changes to current deployment. A radical change in the semantics can be changed to match current usage.
16:36:39 <MacTed> +s/can be changed to match/can be made to match/
16:36:43 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:36:48 <MacTed> s/can be changed to match/can be made to match/
16:36:54 <pfps> I would argue that there has not been a change away from the current semantics!
16:37:24 <ScottB> Richard: I've given up on not say anything at all in the semantics about named graphs.
16:38:17 <ScottB> … I still think it's important to keep in mind the actual uses when talking semantics.
16:38:43 <PatH> keep in mind actual users when thinking about semantics. I agree.
16:39:02 <ScottB> s/uses/users
16:40:31 <AZ> +1 pfps
16:40:35 <ScottB> Peter: current semantics is atemporal. It's not concerned with time. It's fine to use RDF as it is today.
16:40:45 <gavinc> +1 pfps
16:41:00 <ScottB> … all it says is that its a graph
16:41:30 <cygri> q+
16:41:50 <ScottB> Pat: Using graphs to record data true at two different times and change the graph.
16:42:25 <ScottB> Peter: Should be able to do what ever is desired and step outside the semantics.
16:42:32 <ericP> sounds like this small theory fails to meet cygri's litmus of informing implementations
16:42:49 <ericP> at least, not as much as we may want to inform (/standardize) them
16:43:17 <ScottB> Pat: if you record daily changes in the graph. The assertion of a the same triple with a different label breaks the semantics.
16:43:19 <AndyS> q+
16:43:20 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:43:21 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:43:23 <MacTed> q+
16:43:38 <ScottB> Peter: I don't see this as a violation.
16:43:39 <cygri> q?
16:44:10 <ericP> peter: the semantics doesn't say anywhere that there should be one graph to bind them
16:44:12 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:44:20 <ScottB> David: Let's have this conversation off the call.
16:45:05 <ScottB> Richard: Pat says what you say about changes to graphs is how people use this.
16:45:38 <ScottB> … It's his position is that semantics break when this happens.
16:46:05 <ScottB> … like Peter I can't see the problem in the semantics.
16:46:32 <ericP> q+ to say that what the current semantics cover may be a non-issue if we have a shared goal of what the semantics *should* cover
16:46:59 <ScottB> Pat: It depends on what you think semantics should be doing.
16:47:42 <ScottB> … semantics should be about how ref graphs convey meaning.
16:47:43 <AndyS> q-
16:47:55 <ericP> +1 to "make it valid to merge two graphs"
16:48:24 <ScottB> … If graphs are sanctioned by the sematics to be temporal they can't be freely merged.
16:48:45 <pfps> I don't see anything in RDF that says when it is acceptable to merge graphs - all that is there is what it means to merge graphs.
16:48:47 <ScottB> @Pat, please edit my scribe as necessary.
16:49:24 <ScottB> Pat: Every graph should find it's own interpretation
16:49:45 <ScottB> Andy: Keep the URI's denoting the same thing, it's just the triples.
16:49:51 <Guus> Peter: as I right to say your view is: if you merge two graphs you're on your own
16:49:52 <pfps> If you took the stance that RDF says that it is always acceptable to merge graphs, then you would be sort of requiring that the Semantic Web was globally coherent. (I would have said consistent, but that's not quite right here.)
16:50:36 <pfps> My view is that if you combine information from different parts of the Semantic Web, then it is up to you to be sure that they are compatible.
16:50:37 <davidwood> pfps, isn't that a persistent misunderstanding of the Semantic Web by its detractors?
16:50:48 <AndyS> +1 to pfps
16:50:50 <ScottB> Pat: if there is a true functional semantics then it means what it means. If a triple means one thing one place and one thing in another, then it needs to be reflected in the semantics.
16:51:09 <ScottB> Andy: It's just the true falseness.
16:51:30 <AndyS> ack me - thanks Pat
16:51:34 <davidwood> ack MacTed
16:51:37 <Guus> I can libe with Peter's view, in the light of the charter
16:52:04 <pfps> I think that my fundamental philosophical basis is that information in the Semantic Web is not necessarily "true", and that thus you have to be careful committing to bits of it.
16:52:04 <ScottB> Ted: People may be using rdf to store information that's not rdf as defined.
16:52:12 <davidwood> Yes, I can live with pfps's view
16:52:49 <ScottB> … we can't treat anything as if is the same for all time.
16:53:04 <davidwood> ack ericP
16:53:04 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that what the current semantics cover may be a non-issue if we have a shared goal of what the semantics *should* cover
16:53:35 <MacTed> q+
16:53:53 <pfps> Unfortunately, it appears that some of disagreement is about "intended" meaning, which, in my opinion, necessarily brings in the less-well-understood parts of philosophy. :-(
16:54:00 <ScottB> Eric: What do we hope to accomplish, to confidently merge documents? I propose we let Pat describe his proposal.
16:54:29 <ScottB> … then we decide if we want to push things that far and discover use cases from that.
16:56:05 <ScottB> Pat: I agree with David that we don't take things on faith. (Regarding rdf statements) Thats a separate issue from what I'm trying to describe.
16:56:22 <ScottB> … People are using rdf in a temporal way.
16:57:00 <ScottB> … Trusting sources is just too big an issue
16:57:37 <ScottB> … We can come up with a way that provides a semantic foundation for this application of rdf.
16:57:38 <ericP> +1 to "useful formulation", via use cases
16:57:55 <davidwood> ack MacTed
16:57:58 <ScottB> David: Trust is one of the more important use cases.
16:58:24 <danbri> (I liked Pat's note, but there's perhaps slightly too much emphasis on time)
16:58:25 <ScottB> Ted: Merging graphs forces rdf into authoritative true graph
16:58:41 <ScottB> Pat: Semantics doesn't deal with trust.
16:59:11 <davidwood> I think that trust was high on the SemWeb layer cake for a good reason. There was never a presumption in the early RDF community (to the best of my recollection) that anyone should implicitly trust all RDF statements, even when merging graphs.
16:59:26 <davidwood> q?
16:59:42 <danbri> I suggest using 'foaf:age' instead of apple colour
16:59:53 <ScottB> Pat: Do your three sources disagree with one another or are they describing a ripening apple.
17:00:07 <ScottB> … they describe a sequence.
17:00:18 <ScottB> … a fine semantic grain is needed.
17:00:42 <ScottB> Pat: if the truth is contextual you can put a context on it.
17:01:15 <ScottB> David: I think there is less contention now than earlier.
17:01:16 <danbri> q+ to suggest 3 grounding scenarios: 1. 'age' of a person 2. file metadata: filesize 3. 'owner'. (better than Apple...)
17:01:24 <ericP> i still think it would be useful to hear Pat discuss his proposal
17:02:02 <davidwood> ack danbri
17:02:44 <MacTed> +1
17:02:48 <ScottB> Dan: I suggest three examples, person age, file size, owner
17:03:24 <ScottB> Zakim, who is on IRC?
17:03:29 <MacTed> to be clearer... +1 to danbri's 3 examples
17:03:29 <Guus> www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs
17:03:41 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest 3 grounding scenarios: 1. 'age' of a person 2. file metadata: filesize 3. 'owner'. (better than Apple...)
17:03:52 <ScottB> Guus: Zakim, who is on the call
17:03:58 <danbri> (bye 'if we can't do these 3', i mean 'we should have a plausible story about describing humans, computer files, ownable things, ... such that we can suggest sensible rdf-based data patterns that address the reality of changing properties in these 3 areas)
17:04:28 <ScottB> Zakim, who is on the call
17:04:30 <Zakim> +Arnaud.a
17:04:35 <Zakim> -Arnaud
17:04:43 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
17:05:26 <ScottB> Guus: The name the graph and the meaning contained somewhere. This works for the first two cases
17:05:33 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ScottB.
17:06:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', ScottB
17:06:32 <ScottB> … we could say this vocabulary is just convention and doesn't affect semantics.
17:06:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, gavinc, ScottB, PatH, cygri, AndyS, David_Wood, AZ, Ivan, AlexHall, EricP, Guus, danbri, MacTed, Arnaud.a
17:07:17 <ScottB> … first question is what should we be doing and second how should we do this.
17:07:36 <ericP> +1
17:07:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, Arnaud, Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood,
17:07:54 <ericP> +1 to working through specific examples in <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs>\
17:07:56 <davidwood> q?
17:07:57 <Zakim> ... manu, trackbot, sandro, ericP
17:08:45 <Zakim> -Arnaud
17:08:51 <Zakim> +Arnaud
17:08:54 <ScottB> Guus: Interpreted Pat's as not changing the data model but the semantics.
17:09:32 <ScottB> … Do we want a statement in the semantics describing what happens when we merge documents.
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000266
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Chatlog 2011-11-02

Sbauer2 — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:30:49 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
14:23:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:23:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-rdf-wg-irc
14:23:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:23:46 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:23:48 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:23:48 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 37 minutes
14:23:49 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:23:49 <trackbot> Date: 02 November 2011
14:52:29 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:52:36 <Zakim> +guus
14:53:14 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
14:53:54 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
14:54:14 <Zakim> +gavinc
14:54:55 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:54:55 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:54:57 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:56:39 <gavinc> Good morning
15:00:03 <swh> swh has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:10 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:29 <mischat_> mischat_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:38 <Zakim> +??P3
15:00:44 <swh> Zakim, ??P3 is [Garlik]
15:00:44 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it
15:01:10 <swh> Zakim, [Garlik] has me, mischat
15:01:10 <Zakim> +swh, mischat; got it
15:01:11 <Zakim> +bhyland
15:01:15 <Zakim> + +1.707.318.aaaa
15:01:20 <davidwood> Zakim, bhyland is me
15:01:20 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
15:01:41 <Zakim> +??P7
15:01:43 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:01:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see guus, Scott_Bauer, gavinc, Ivan, [Garlik], davidwood, +1.707.318.aaaa, ??P7
15:01:45 <Zakim> [Garlik] has swh, mischat
15:01:45 <Zakim> -??P7
15:01:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see mischat_, AndyS, swh, Guus, Zakim, RRSAgent, Scott_Bauer, gavinc, MacTed, danbri, mischat, mox601, AndyS1, ivan, davidwood, manu1, manu, NickH, ericP, trackbot, sandro
15:01:52 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:01:52 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:59 <Scott_Bauer> Scribe: Scott_Bauer
15:02:06 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:02:06 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:02:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:02:08 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:02:09 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:17 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
15:02:17 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:02:31 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:02:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see guus, Scott_Bauer, gavinc, Ivan, [Garlik], davidwood, +1.707.318.aaaa, MacTed (muted), AndyS
15:02:34 <Zakim> [Garlik] has swh, mischat
15:02:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, mischat, AndyS, swh, Guus, Zakim, RRSAgent, Scott_Bauer, gavinc, MacTed, danbri, mox601, AndyS1, ivan, davidwood, manu1, manu, NickH, ericP, trackbot, sandro
15:03:02 <Zakim> +PatH
15:03:07 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:24 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:01 <Zakim> +AlexHall
15:04:18 <Scott_Bauer> scribenick: Scott_Bauer
15:04:27 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: Admin
15:04:38 <PatH> zakim, mute me
15:04:38 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
15:05:18 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:05:23 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
15:05:23 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:05:25 <Scott_Bauer> PROPOSED: accept last weeks minutes
15:05:54 <Guus> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-10-19
15:06:02 <Scott_Bauer> guus: should be 19 rather than 5
15:06:10 <Scott_Bauer> … of October
15:06:32 <PatH> mhausenblas owl:sameAs cygri?
15:06:35 <davidwood> (fixed link to old minutes in agenda)
15:06:40 <Scott_Bauer> RESOLVED: minutes are accepted
15:06:43 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:06:49 <CGI734> CGI734 has joined #rdf-wg
15:06:57 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: Action Items
15:07:02 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:24 <Zakim> +Souri
15:07:31 <Scott_Bauer> guus: Action-3 to be closed
15:07:43 <Zakim> +ericP
15:07:56 <Zakim> +zwu2
15:08:09 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
15:08:09 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
15:08:20 <gavinc> Looks like Sandro and Richard have a lot to do ;)
15:08:22 <Scott_Bauer> guus: quite a number of open items
15:09:06 <Scott_Bauer> guus: need to discuss the primer with Fabien
15:10:05 <Scott_Bauer> guus: will continue all for Richard, Sandro
15:11:17 <Scott_Bauer> sandro: issue three was an attempt to close issues at the end of the face to face.
15:11:34 <Scott_Bauer> … need to find student to go through old comments
15:11:51 <Scott_Bauer> … suggest we reopen issue 3
15:12:13 <cygri> ISSUE-3?
15:12:13 <trackbot> ISSUE-3 -- Between us, we need to study the feedback we got via http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/ on the previous round of specs (and errata) -- open
15:12:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/3
15:13:03 <Scott_Bauer> guus: if you could edit issue 3
15:13:18 <PatH> zakim, mute me
15:13:18 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
15:13:49 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/111 updated to be more clear.
15:14:00 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: Telecon next week
15:14:01 <Zakim> -ericP
15:14:18 <Zakim> +ericP
15:14:38 <Scott_Bauer> guus: time change noted for next week -- back to the same time.
15:14:56 <cygri> ISSUE-71?
15:14:56 <trackbot> ISSUE-71 -- Reconcile various forms of string literals (time permitting) -- pending review
15:14:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/71
15:15:02 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: Issue 71
15:15:31 <Scott_Bauer> guus: amendment proposal from Jerermy Carrroll
15:15:51 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
15:15:51 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
15:16:11 <Scott_Bauer> … Richard is the amendment ok for you?
15:16:15 <gavinc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Oct/0385.html
15:16:53 <Scott_Bauer> … Jeremy is an expert in the language labels.
15:17:00 <AndyS> +1 to proposal
15:17:03 <PatH> +q
15:17:09 <Scott_Bauer> cygri: this looks ok, it's just a clarification.
15:17:47 <swh> I find the wording a bit strange
15:17:56 <swh> +1 to PatH
15:18:00 <Scott_Bauer> PatH: I have no objections to the modification but I do to the other.
15:18:22 <AlexHall> i guess that's why RIF uses "symbol space" instead of "datatype"
15:19:03 <Scott_Bauer> cygri: Two separate concepts that deal with datatype IRIS. Typed datatype iri and a lexicalform
15:19:31 <Scott_Bauer> PatH: Data type IRI used as an IRI?
15:19:34 <Zakim> -ericP
15:19:38 <gavinc_> gavinc_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:19:41 <Scott_Bauer> cygri: it's just an IRI
15:19:45 <Zakim> +ericP
15:19:55 <Scott_Bauer> … nothing that requires it to be a datatype.
15:20:07 <Scott_Bauer> … not syntactically invalid
15:20:31 <Scott_Bauer> … the intention is that this is IRI is exceptional
15:20:40 <AlexHall> q+
15:20:59 <Scott_Bauer> … used in a datatype position but just an IRI
15:21:28 <Scott_Bauer> PatH: That seems to be wrong to put it in that position
15:21:35 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
15:21:35 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
15:22:07 <Scott_Bauer> cygri: I don't think we can really improve on the design
15:22:25 <Scott_Bauer> … I don't' think we want to revisit the design
15:22:35 <Scott_Bauer> PatH: I agree
15:24:02 <Scott_Bauer> cygri: RDF concepts, section 5 on datatypes denoted by one or more uri references. There is nothing that requires them to be connected
15:24:25 <swh> Zakim, who is speaking?
15:24:35 <Zakim> swh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (9%), PatH (70%)
15:24:58 <Scott_Bauer> PatH: I find this design unacceptable
15:25:41 <Scott_Bauer> PatH: This is called a datatype thats not a datatype.
15:25:47 <AndyS> q+ to ask if we have formally decided on the URI as rdf:langString (helps SPARQL finish)
15:25:53 <Scott_Bauer> … let's take it off line
15:26:19 <cygri> q+
15:26:34 <PatH> zakim, mute me
15:26:34 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
15:26:36 <Scott_Bauer> AndyS: Is that going to be the URI?
15:27:00 <Zakim> -ericP
15:27:03 <PatH> but that iri will not actually occur in the literal...
15:27:04 <Scott_Bauer> cygri: There was no discussion of the specific URI
15:27:35 <Scott_Bauer> cygri: Should it be called something different?
15:27:45 <AndyS> ack me
15:27:45 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask if we have formally decided on the URI as rdf:langString (helps SPARQL finish)
15:27:47 <Zakim> +ericP
15:27:48 <cygri> ack me
15:28:00 <PatH> no objections to the label..
15:28:02 <Scott_Bauer> guus: I suggest we keep the label. Is that ok Andy?
15:28:19 <ericP> q-
15:28:34 <PatH> q-
15:29:29 <Scott_Bauer> AlexHall: Datatype IRI that's not and IRI reminds me of how REST defines the simple space. Some of these are also datatypes.
15:29:50 <AlexHall> s/REST/RIF/
15:30:02 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: issue 77
15:30:10 <AlexHall> s/simple/symbol/
15:30:16 <cygri> ISSUE-77?
15:30:16 <trackbot> ISSUE-77 -- Should we mark rdf:Seq as archaic (cf ISSUE-24) -- open
15:30:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/77
15:30:33 <Scott_Bauer> guus: RDF seq and lists discussion
15:31:19 <swh> I don't think there's much consensus
15:31:56 <Scott_Bauer> AndyS: I don't see a consensus forming.
15:32:32 <PatH> link to wikipage?
15:32:37 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Ordered
15:32:50 <Scott_Bauer> guus: First Proposal just call them sequence and list downplay as containers. Consensus on this?
15:33:14 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: I haven't seen push back or support.
15:33:22 <PatH> people DO call them sequence and list, in fact.
15:33:40 <swh> yeah
15:33:41 <gavinc> I think there is some level of consensus on well formedness as well
15:33:43 <PatH> zakim, unmute me.
15:33:43 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
15:33:50 <Scott_Bauer> guus: Semantics proposal is just to remove the semantics.
15:34:32 <ivan> q+
15:34:34 <AndyS> well formedness for Seqs was pushed back at : two rdf:_1 to indicate equal rank
15:34:41 <Scott_Bauer> PatH: We may not need to remove that. We may just not need so many at once (containers)
15:34:45 <Zakim> -ericP
15:35:26 <AlexHall> q-
15:35:31 <Zakim> +ericP
15:35:40 <Guus> ack AlexHall
15:35:54 <Guus> ack ivan
15:36:24 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: The current semantics would define an infinite amount of axiomatic triples.
15:37:26 <Scott_Bauer> … we get interoperability issues.
15:38:10 <Scott_Bauer> … certain conclusions in semantics are used in those properties?
15:38:47 <Scott_Bauer> PatH: I agree is would be better if there was a clearer normative statement.
15:38:49 <ivan> q+
15:39:30 <Scott_Bauer> guus: We should amend the text.
15:39:40 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: We should do this quickly
15:40:07 <Scott_Bauer> … sparql does define one approach to this.
15:40:28 <ivan> q+
15:40:29 <Scott_Bauer> … look at this and see if we can use it to define it.
15:40:40 <Zakim> -ericP
15:40:52 <Zakim> +ericP
15:41:34 <ivan> -> the SPARQL document to look at http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-entailment/
15:42:28 <Scott_Bauer> Action: PatH review the sparql specifications for consistency with rdf semantics for container properties
15:42:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-114 - review the sparql specifications for consistency with rdf semantics for container properties [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-11-09].
15:42:45 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:42:47 <PatH> zakim, mute me
15:42:47 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
15:43:23 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: We have one major user that uses the container properties -- Adobe
15:43:35 <swh> q+
15:43:40 <ivan> ack ivan
15:43:42 <Scott_Bauer> … Should we contact them regarding these changes.
15:43:49 <gavinc> Hi Sandro!
15:43:53 <davidwood> +1 to Ivan. We have been presuming that Adobe will care about terminology.
15:44:17 <swh> q-
15:44:25 <PatH> i think there was a consensus not to deprecate or otherwise be rude about containers?
15:44:37 <swh> not consensus
15:44:49 <PatH> OK
15:45:25 <Scott_Bauer> Action: sandro will discuss the issue of the container properties and deprecation with Adobe.
15:45:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-115 - Will discuss the issue of the container properties and deprecation with Adobe. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2011-11-09].
15:45:49 <swh> q+
15:46:37 <PatH> it means if they do use it they have to take a shower afterwards.
15:47:04 <swh> q?
15:47:11 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: Well Formed Lists
15:47:33 <AndyS> q+
15:47:40 <Scott_Bauer> guus: Is there consensus on this
15:47:58 <Scott_Bauer> sandro: I think so -- question is what would we do with the definition.
15:48:02 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
15:48:02 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
15:48:40 <Scott_Bauer> SteveH: It's not ok to ask Adobe if its ok to deprectate
15:49:03 <cygri> q+
15:49:05 <Scott_Bauer> … the containers
15:49:24 <cygri> q-
15:49:27 <PatH> +q re wellformed lists. Is the idea to have wellformed triples or a different 'native' structure?
15:49:47 <swh> q-
15:49:58 <Scott_Bauer> AndyS: Lists cannot be shared. Can't have two triples pointing to the same object.
15:50:26 <Scott_Bauer> PatH: can you clarify that?
15:50:48 <Scott_Bauer> AndyS: It's linked specifically on the turtle page.
15:50:49 <gavinc> I think PatH it's that IF they are well formed triples they CAN be implemented as a 'native' structure
15:51:17 <Zakim> +ericP
15:51:26 <Zakim> -ericP
15:51:33 <AndyS> """ Each list node has exactly one inbound arc; for all but the first node, it's an rdf:rest arc from the previous node. """
15:51:55 <PatH> ok, clearly we need to check the definition very carefully.
15:52:19 <Scott_Bauer> guus: I don't hear anybody saying it is a problem.
15:52:28 <gavinc> "(Perhaps there is a clearer definition using more math.) " ;)
15:52:45 <Scott_Bauer> … leaving this to further list discussion.
15:52:47 <PatH> gavinc, yes. in fact there are several...
15:53:05 <PatH> zakim, mute me
15:53:05 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
15:53:21 <Scott_Bauer> sandro: would like to approach Adobe for feedback on the possibility.
15:54:04 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: To mark Lists as archaic or not.
15:54:25 <Scott_Bauer> sandro: see Steve's summary
15:54:44 <Scott_Bauer> guus: If we are stuck we go with the minimal option.
15:54:59 <Scott_Bauer> … proposal one.
15:55:09 <PatH> lists archaic??
15:55:45 <PatH> +1 to guus. minimal change.
15:56:18 <Scott_Bauer> Sandro you may need to self scribe I'm not hearing you well
15:56:53 <Scott_Bauer> sandro: should we get rid of one of them?
15:57:06 <Scott_Bauer> … sequences or lists?
15:57:27 <PatH> not clear to me what the alternative(s?) are.
15:57:40 <cygri> sandro: no one is happy with containers, no one is happy with collections. should we try to actually fix the problem? is there will in the wg to approach this?
15:57:55 <cygri> q+
15:58:03 <AndyS> ack me
15:58:11 <PatH> ah. not obvious to me that this is a problem to solve here.
15:58:15 <PatH> q-
15:58:31 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:58:53 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:59:07 <Scott_Bauer> cygri: The other proposals include a list ontology and a datatype that is a list of UI/s
15:59:24 <PatH> +1 cygri
15:59:32 <Guus> +1 to Richard: not really in scope for this WG
15:59:42 <swh> +1
15:59:49 <Scott_Bauer> … seems like this should be carefully considered and explored in some other venue.
15:59:53 <swh> good for an XG (or whatever the current thing is)
15:59:55 <ivan> +1 to richard
16:00:06 <cygri> ack me
16:00:33 <gavinc> +☃ to cygri
16:00:33 <Scott_Bauer> guus: Proposal one the most likely option.
16:01:18 <Scott_Bauer> sandro: We are taking a big step by endorsing turtle and it will be painful to have all these turtle lists out there.
16:01:26 <PatH> i dont see any simple way to get this tidied up now. whatever we do will be a crock at this stage.
16:02:03 <gavinc> ... ( 1, 2, 3) ?type .
16:02:22 <AndyS> Turtle exists in the wild already - I worry about changing current meaning.
16:02:23 <Scott_Bauer> … could perhaps use parenthesis for rdf list
16:02:39 <swh> +1 to AndyS
16:02:43 <PatH> list datatype, maybe.
16:02:47 <gavinc> +1000 to AndyS
16:02:56 <PatH> +1 andy
16:03:04 <AndyS> ():List ():Seq with () as list MIGHT work.
16:03:34 <PatH> lists can have sublists?
16:03:50 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: Named Graph Issues
16:03:50 <AndyS> PatH - yes
16:04:14 <sandro> sandro has joined #rdf-wg
16:04:43 <AndyS> PatH, an object of rdf:first can be a list by Sandro's wording and by Turtle syntax. Unusual but legal.
16:04:44 <gavinc> +q what TriG draft currently says
16:04:50 <Scott_Bauer> guus: Consensus model for moving forward is to agree on the minimal model.
16:04:52 <gavinc> +q to say what TriG draft currently says
16:05:07 <gavinc> Zakim, unmute me
16:05:07 <Zakim> gavinc should no longer be muted
16:05:25 <gavinc> A graph statement pairs an IRI with a RDF Graph. It is intended that triple statements made about that IRI are being made about the graph. The triple statements that make up the graph are enclosed in {}.
16:05:50 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
16:05:50 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
16:05:57 <PatH> +q
16:06:05 <AndyS> I like the approach Guus outlines. Document different practices.
16:06:05 <ivan> ack gavinc
16:06:05 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to say what TriG draft currently says
16:06:09 <Guus> ack gavinc
16:06:14 <Guus> ack patH
16:06:26 <Scott_Bauer> PatH: The second sentence "made using that IRI" would be better
16:06:40 <gavinc> A graph statement pairs an IRI with a RDF Graph. It is intended that triple statements made using that IRI are being made about the graph. The triple statements that make up the graph are enclosed in {}.
16:06:40 <PatH> zakim, mute me
16:06:40 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
16:06:51 <Scott_Bauer> sandro: informal that the IRI denotes the graph
16:07:11 <Scott_Bauer> gavinc: We match that grammar in a number of places.
16:07:16 <ericP> can i simplify
16:07:16 <ericP> SELECT * WHERE { GRAPH <G1> { ?s <p1> ?o1 }
16:07:16 <ericP> SERVICE <S1> { GRAPH <G1> { ?s <p2> ?o2 } } }
16:07:16 <ericP> to
16:07:16 <ericP> SELECT * WHERE { GRAPH <G1> { ?s <p1> ?o1 ; <p2> ?o2 } }
16:07:19 <ericP> ?
16:07:39 <sandro> Yeah, "using that IRI" not "*about* that IRI".
16:08:12 <Scott_Bauer> ericP: One persons notion of a graph doesn't have to match another's. Sandro seems to say they probably should.
16:08:36 <swh> I'm not even sure that's an ideal world
16:08:37 <Scott_Bauer> sandro: That's probably going farther than we can right now.
16:08:44 <gavinc> In a TriG document a graph IRI must not be used to label more then one graph. The IRI of a graph statement may be omitted. In this case the graph is considered the default graph of the RDF Dataset.
16:08:47 <swh> -∞ to those being equivalent
16:08:51 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
16:08:51 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
16:08:57 <PatH> +q
16:09:04 <AndyS> Not the same - need extra assumptions.
16:09:16 <Scott_Bauer> gavinc: TRIG doesn't deal with transactions
16:09:41 <ericP> can i simplify
16:09:41 <ericP> SELECT * WHERE { GRAPH <G1> { ?s <p1> ?o1 }
16:09:41 <ericP> { GRAPH <G1> { ?s <p2> ?o2 } } }
16:09:41 <ericP> to
16:09:41 <ericP> SELECT * WHERE { GRAPH <G1> { ?s <p1> ?o1 ; <p2> ?o2 } }
16:09:44 <ericP> ?
16:09:55 <PatH> IRIs have globsal scope, so they must be the same according to the semantics.
16:10:01 <Scott_Bauer> gavinc: It says you can't label them twice.
16:10:02 <Guus> ack PatH
16:10:13 <AndyS> That is OK.
16:10:14 <Scott_Bauer> ericP: I'll retract this line of reasoning.
16:10:14 <Souri> s/globsal /global /
16:10:33 <swh> what if one dataset is a canned state from 1 year ago?
16:10:37 <gavinc> I agree for versions of global that include everyone getting to have their own globe
16:10:40 <swh> or just hasn't been updated
16:10:54 <swh> yet
16:10:56 <Scott_Bauer> PatH: We have an IRI and it denotes a graph. Nothing about only inside a data set.
16:11:03 <cygri> it's not the deployed RDF world either
16:11:26 <swh> it's not representative of how technology actually works
16:11:40 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html#sec-trig-intro current TriG draft
16:11:58 <Scott_Bauer> sandro: it would be nice if an IRI refers to the same graph but that's not how sparql works.
16:12:00 <AndyS> +1 to cygri -- not just SPARQL, just easier to write down currently.
16:12:20 <Scott_Bauer> … can't just mandate this (Consensus at the face to face)
16:12:21 <AndyS> ... in fact predates SPARQL.
16:13:02 <Scott_Bauer> PatH: I thought a resolution was made to have the IRI denote the graph.
16:13:38 <AndyS> History - SPARQL followed/consensus of subset of deployed usage even back then.
16:13:45 <Scott_Bauer> gavinc: No one could agree on denotes
16:13:50 <swh> +1 to AndyS
16:14:32 <Scott_Bauer> sandro: You can't stop the IRI's from denoting something in RDF, but does it denote the graph.
16:15:16 <Scott_Bauer> … Maybe something at the top of the TRIG document that says how this works.
16:15:35 <gavinc> I'm not hearing anyone complain about "It is intended that triple statements made using that IRI are being made about the graph."
16:15:52 <Scott_Bauer> guus: You could give guidance on what the relationship would identify. Can we reach consensus?
16:16:27 <Scott_Bauer> AndyS: The IRI denotes the graph is what I get out of the statement.
16:16:36 <AndyS> Not AndyS
16:16:48 <AndyS> q+
16:16:58 <cygri> PatH: The IRI denotes the graph is what I get out of the statement.
16:17:02 <Scott_Bauer> swh: What Gavin said doesn't ring any alarm bells.
16:17:04 <PatH> tnx
16:17:24 <Guus> ack AndyS
16:17:29 <sandro> sandro: Maybe we can try to flush out the implications of gavin's text.
16:18:02 <AndyS> q-
16:18:40 <AndyS> Need to use IRI in triple and IRI-graph association consistently but it's easy to get it wrong.
16:19:16 <Scott_Bauer> AndyS: The chief problem is this is global. Don't say denote if that isn't' what's meant.
16:19:23 <gavinc> Sure, PatH but people can something else about that IRI and the world will be happily inconsistent
16:19:39 <AndyS> s/AndyS/PatH/
16:19:47 <AndyS> e.g. <iri> : size "57 bytes" using <iri> to denote the g-snap
16:19:52 <swh> bye
16:19:54 <Zakim> -Souri
16:19:55 <AndyS> bye
16:19:56 <Zakim> -PatH
16:19:57 <Zakim> -[Garlik]
16:19:58 <Zakim> -cygri
16:19:59 <zwu2> bye
16:19:59 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:19:59 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:19:59 <Zakim> -davidwood
16:20:02 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:20:03 <Zakim> -ericP
16:20:05 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:20:05 <Zakim> -gavinc
16:20:06 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:20:16 <Zakim> - +1.707.318.aaaa
16:20:42 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:20:43 <PatH> Me too
16:20:50 <PatH> Us brits all sound alike
16:21:39 <Scott_Bauer> Action: PatH Send message to list about consequences of TRIG document statements about graph RI's
16:21:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-116 - Send message to list about consequences of TRIG document statements about graph RI's [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-11-09].
16:22:04 <Scott_Bauer> trackbot, end meeting
16:22:04 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:22:04 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been guus, Scott_Bauer, gavinc, Ivan, swh, mischat, +1.707.318.aaaa, davidwood, MacTed, AndyS, PatH, AlexHall, cygri, Souri, ericP, zwu2, Sandro
16:22:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:22:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
16:22:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:22:06 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
16:22:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: PatH review the sparql specifications for consistency with rdf semantics for container properties [1]
16:22:06 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-rdf-wg-irc#T15-42-28
16:22:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: sandro will discuss the issue of the container properties and deprecation with Adobe. [2]
16:22:06 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-rdf-wg-irc#T15-45-25
16:22:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: PatH Send message to list about consequences of TRIG document statements about graph RI's [3]
16:22:06 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-rdf-wg-irc#T16-21-39
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000399
</nowiki></pre>

Chatlog 2011-06-15

Sbauer2 — Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:45:25 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
14:26:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:26:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-rdf-wg-irc
14:26:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:26:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:26:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:26:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
14:26:59 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:27:00 <trackbot> Date: 15 June 2011
14:29:39 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:31:43 <AndyS> AndyS has left #rdf-wg
14:31:48 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:43:18 <gavin> gavin has joined #rdf-wg
14:54:44 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
14:55:00 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
14:55:42 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:55:49 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aaaa
14:56:43 <Zakim> +Bernadette
14:57:01 <davidwood> Zakim, Bernadette is davidwood
14:57:01 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
14:57:13 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
14:57:20 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aabb
14:57:23 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:57:23 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:57:25 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:57:25 <Zakim> +Tony
14:57:39 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me
14:57:39 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
14:57:41 <Olivier> Olivier has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:46 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:49 <Zakim> +??P13
14:58:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
14:58:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, +1.760.705.aabb, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, ??P13
14:58:51 <Zakim> +LeeF
14:59:01 <AZ> Zakim, Bernadette is me
14:59:02 <Zakim> sorry, AZ, I do not recognize a party named 'Bernadette'
14:59:02 <mbrunati> zakim ??P13 is me
14:59:25 <gavin> If you were Bernadatte now your davidwood ;)
14:59:26 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P13 is me
14:59:31 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
14:59:37 <Zakim> +??P6
14:59:37 <LeeF> AZ, bernadette was davidwood, not you
14:59:54 <davidwood> AZ, Bernadette dialed from our office number earlier for the SWCG call, so I'm sure it is me now.
14:59:57 <Zakim> +[Sophia]
15:00:09 <cmatheus> zakim, ??P6 is me
15:00:09 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it
15:00:18 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:25 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:08 <AZ> Zakim, +1.760.705.aabb is me
15:01:08 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:01:19 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aacc
15:01:26 <AlexHall> zakim, aacc is me
15:01:26 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:01:31 <Zakim> + +1.303.474.aadd
15:01:48 <Zakim> +??P18
15:01:52 <AndyS> zakim, ??P18 is me
15:01:52 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:02:23 <moustaki> moustaki has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:57 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:03:00 <Zakim> +Souri
15:03:06 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:03:06 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:03:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:03:08 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:03:08 <pfps> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, +1.303.474.aadd, AndyS, MacTed, Souri
15:03:21 <Zakim> +??P28
15:03:30 <Zakim> +??P33
15:03:39 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:40 <pfps> Zakim, mute me
15:03:42 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:03:44 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P28 is yvesr
15:03:45 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:04:06 <mischat> zakim, ??�P33 is me
15:04:06 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '??�P33'
15:04:38 <mischat> zakim, +??P33 is mischat
15:04:38 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'
15:04:46 <mischat> zakim, +??P33 is me
15:04:46 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'
15:04:47 <Scott_Bauer> rrsagent, make records public
15:04:57 <davidwood> pfps, 61#
15:04:58 <ericP> ericP has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:13 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:20 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:05:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, +1.303.474.aadd (muted), AndyS, MacTed (muted), Souri, yvesr, ??P33
15:05:23 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:05:24 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), zwu2
15:05:31 <MacTed> Zakim, P33 is mischat
15:05:31 <Zakim> sorry, MacTed, I do not recognize a party named 'P33'
15:05:33 <Scott_Bauer> Scribe: Scott_Bauer
15:05:34 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:05:34 <pfps> Zakim, MacTed is me
15:05:34 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:05:45 <davidwood> scribenick: Scott_Bauer
15:05:58 <Zakim> +[Sophia.a]
15:05:59 <Zakim> + +1.408.642.aaee
15:06:06 <MacTed> Zakim, ??P33 is mischat
15:06:06 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:06:09 <Zakim> + +1.415.586.aaff
15:06:15 <FabGandon> Zakim, Sophia.a is me
15:06:15 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
15:06:15 <MacTed> Zakim, pfps is OpenLink_Software
15:06:17 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
15:06:23 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:06:23 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:06:36 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 June telecon:
15:06:36 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-08
15:06:38 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: June 8 telcon minutes
15:06:42 <MacTed> pfps - where are you calling from? might +1.303.474.aadd be you?
15:06:59 <Scott_Bauer> david: Made changes but they were not promulgated
15:07:26 <Scott_Bauer> ... edited to capture resolution on issue-60
15:07:45 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:55 <Scott_Bauer> ... closed issue-60 in the tracker, but it doesn't show in the minutes
15:08:21 <pfps> zakim, aadd is me
15:08:21 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:08:25 <Scott_Bauer> ... will check with Sandro
15:08:26 <gavin> Fixed
15:08:28 <pfps> q-
15:08:30 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:08:38 <gavin> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-08 is now correct
15:08:39 <MacTed> ack aadd
15:08:44 <MacTed> ack +1.303.474.aadd
15:08:52 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:08:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, pfps (muted), AndyS, MacTed (muted), Souri, yvesr, mischat, FabGandon,
15:08:56 <Zakim> ... +1.408.642.aaee, +1.415.586.aaff
15:09:15 <Scott_Bauer> Gavin: its all fixed
15:09:34 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:38 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:09:50 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
15:09:50 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:10:06 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: problems with issue-58
15:10:20 <Scott_Bauer> David: closed presumed to be archaic
15:10:37 <AlexHall> I see the resolution in the minutes
15:11:04 <gavin> I'll fix it ;)(
15:11:20 <LeeF> thanks, gavin
15:12:03 <Scott_Bauer> David: I will fix it
15:12:57 <pfps> Zakim, mute me
15:12:58 <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps
15:13:17 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:13:26 <AndyS> Absent any info, presume as per proposal (close, do nothing), but it does not actually say that in the issue tracker.
15:13:53 <Scott_Bauer> David: The wiki is now correct
15:14:33 <Scott_Bauer> ... The minutes from June 8 are accepted
15:14:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... Richard has claimed victory on action-59
15:15:12 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Documents
15:15:32 <Scott_Bauer> ... Peter had action-69
15:15:35 <pfps> yes, my action is done!
15:15:51 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:16:19 <Scott_Bauer> ... passing by Dan, Sandro
15:16:49 <davidwood> Scribes page proposes the summer telecon schedule: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes
15:17:22 <pfps> fine by m
15:17:25 <pfps> s/m/me/
15:17:31 <Scott_Bauer> ... Any objections to the summer telecon schedule as shown
15:17:52 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:18:02 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (13%), yvesr (82%)
15:18:07 <MacTed> Zakim, mute yvesr
15:18:07 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted
15:18:11 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me
15:18:11 <Zakim> yvesr was already muted, yvesr
15:18:43 <davidwood> RESOLVED: to accept the summer telecon schedule.
15:18:44 <Scott_Bauer> ... resolved to accept the schedule as written
15:19:23 <Scott_Bauer> ... Action 56 from Antoine. Guus also not here.
15:19:47 <AZ> Scott, it's not for Antoine, it's Pierre-Antoine's action
15:19:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... Closing the action item for Guus
15:20:35 <Scott_Bauer> ... Pierre-Antoine for action 56 (correction to the above)
15:20:36 <AndyS> ping ericP (Q from chair)
15:20:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... leaving turtle document action open.
15:20:58 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile
15:20:58 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
15:21:00 <Zakim> +EricP
15:21:03 <davidwood> SPARQL/RDF WG Meeting regarding graph terminology:
15:21:03 <davidwood> Poll at http://www.doodle.com/iny935vc6n67vxpv
15:21:33 <Scott_Bauer> ... action item to schedule graph terminology discussion a poll is posted.
15:21:46 <davidwood> Revisit RDF Postponed Issues
15:21:46 <Scott_Bauer> ... brings us back to postponed issues
15:21:55 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: Postponed issues
15:22:04 <AZ> +1 to close it
15:22:04 <AndyS> Currently, 22/June and 6/July most "yes"s -- 15:00 (UTC+01)
15:22:20 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/59
15:22:20 <davidwood> See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0063.html where Peter proposes to close as "opened in error".
15:22:30 <pfps> +1 to close 59
15:22:38 <Scott_Bauer> david: issue 59 opened in error and proposal is to closse as suggested by Peter
15:22:39 <ivan> +1
15:22:42 <davidwood> +1 to close
15:22:44 <cygri> +1 to close ISSUE-59
15:22:46 <zwu2> +1 close
15:22:50 <mbrunati> +1 to close
15:22:55 <cmatheus> +1 close
15:22:58 <yvesr> +1
15:23:01 <pfps> OK
15:23:52 <Scott_Bauer> RESOLVED: Issue-59 was CLOSED because it was opened in error by the last RDF WG. See: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/59
15:23:52 <Scott_Bauer> ... issue-62 in relation to the turtle doc Guus to discuss with Eric.
15:23:57 <gavin> I did talk to eric last week!
15:24:01 <davidwood> ISSUE-62: Revisit "The test cases manifest format has a semantic error"
15:24:01 <trackbot> ISSUE-62 Revisit "The test cases manifest format has a semantic error" notes added
15:24:43 <Scott_Bauer> ... Richard proposed continuing issue-62 proposed to be moved from raised to open
15:24:45 <davidwood> Propose to OPEN ISSUE-62 for later discussions
15:25:02 <cygri> (I think it was danbri who proposed to continue this .... but i agree)
15:25:36 <Scott_Bauer> ... any objections to opening 62, hearing none it is open
15:25:36 <Scott_Bauer> RESOLVED: Issue-62 was OPENED because we need to consider it properly. See: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/62
15:25:48 <Scott_Bauer> ... Moves us to issue-12
15:25:51 <davidwood> ISSUE-12: Reconcile various forms of string literals
15:25:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-12 Reconcile various forms of string literals (time permitting) notes added
15:26:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... Guus thought we were close to consensus.
15:26:10 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/12
15:26:11 <davidwood> Are we reaching consensus: see thread starting with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0010.html
15:26:11 <davidwood> No :) See William's proposal and resulting thread at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0069.html
15:26:23 <Scott_Bauer> ... William made a proposal and I think we are not close.
15:26:23 <AndyS> ww sent regrets
15:26:39 <cygri> q+
15:26:41 <JeremyCarroll> q+
15:26:47 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:26:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... looking back on thread a contrary test case was stated.
15:27:07 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
15:28:14 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: May need to take this off line. The first working group put the lang treatments in late in the day.
15:28:29 <Scott_Bauer> ... late change to the desing of model and syntax.
15:28:53 <Souri> s/desing/design/
15:28:57 <Scott_Bauer> ... 2004 working group felt they weren't able to change the design and the intent of the rdf-wg wasn't clear.
15:29:24 <Zakim> -yvesr
15:29:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... the question is should we fix the design or live with it.
15:30:31 <Scott_Bauer> David: Owl wg expressed a concern in changing datatypes
15:31:01 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: Advantages of the current design is that it works well with DL
15:31:21 <AndyS> Was there a specific example of what possible change messes OWL up?
15:31:38 <Scott_Bauer> ... current design more targeted at more niave user
15:32:24 <Scott_Bauer> David: We already have plain strings. Don't really buy the arguments we are breaking rdf
15:32:53 <davidwood> AndyS, IanH expressed concern over any change to datatypes because that would require changes in OWL.
15:33:49 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: Language tags as datatypes have significant opposition.
15:34:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... other proposal with not too much opposition to abandon the untagged strings and leave the tag literals as they are now.
15:35:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... leaving plain literals as syntatic sugar
15:35:39 <Scott_Bauer> ... what problems would we still work out. What does this mean for OWL. Peter raised some concerns
15:35:58 <Scott_Bauer> ... some questions about how to deal with this in the syntaxs
15:36:09 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to address OWL concerns
15:36:36 <Scott_Bauer> ... curious to hear if this would raise concerns in OWL and Sparql
15:36:58 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
15:36:58 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to address OWL concerns
15:37:56 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: one of the constraints changes may break OWL. They mean by OWL is OWL DL. Mapping from triples into some other language.
15:38:04 <pfps> q+
15:38:07 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:38:07 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
15:38:29 <davidwood> ack pfps
15:38:30 <AndyS> SPARQL -- it's only result of DATATYPE("foo"@en) --> in detail, if class, not datatype, still err but unexpected? SPARQL could just fib a bit and return rdf:LTS.
15:38:32 <Scott_Bauer> ... cause a greater divergence between OWL and RDF.
15:39:24 <Scott_Bauer> Peter: Any change to RDF (substantive) would be changes to OWL RL systems
15:40:08 <Scott_Bauer> Alex: Some details might change in mapping layer, but mapping is transparent for us from rules to sparql queries.
15:40:23 <pfps> zakim, mute me
15:40:23 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
15:40:34 <cygri> q+
15:40:45 <Scott_Bauer> David: Lacking some of the people who could support Richard's proposal are not here.
15:41:04 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:41:06 <zwu2> I have to leave early to attend a customer meeting
15:41:08 <Scott_Bauer> ... Ian is invited to express OWL concerns in the future
15:41:12 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:41:12 <zwu2> bye
15:41:20 <Zakim> - +1.408.642.aaee
15:41:48 <Zakim> +??P19
15:41:54 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P23 is me
15:41:54 <Zakim> sorry, yvesr, I do not recognize a party named '??P23'
15:42:00 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: How does this related to sparql. Two places where its affected. Returning a lang type string currently causes an error.
15:42:13 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P33 is me
15:42:13 <Zakim> I already had ??P33 as mischat, yvesr
15:42:14 <pfps> of course, it is not just OWL RL systems that have to change, but also OWL DL systems - my view is that most OWL DL implementers would not care too much, as long as the changes can be fit into OWL DL, changes to the OWL documents might be more problematic
15:42:18 <AndyS> q+
15:43:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... serializtion of sparql results xsd: string and plain literal are the same in the design with of those is supposed to be produced. How should code be written.
15:43:40 <davidwood> ack AndyS
15:44:04 <davidwood> pfps, Alex (Revelytix) is an OWL RL implementor.
15:44:11 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: to the second point. Policy should be consistant between rdf and sparql results.
15:45:44 <Scott_Bauer> Lee: One place to serialized it and do so in a simple form. If rdf-wg goes in this direction charter implications may be affected.
15:45:54 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: no charter implications
15:46:12 <AlexHall> We are a RIF implementor. Presumably changes to OWL RL would be reflected as changes to the rules as expressed in the profiles doc. We can handle those changes quite easily.
15:46:21 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: The one without the datatype markings should imply the other form is still valid.
15:46:28 <LeeF> ivan, thanks, did not realize that XML results document was already in our charter, so that's something, at least
15:46:31 <davidwood> AlexHall, Thanks
15:46:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... the consumer has to be prepared to deal with eithe form.
15:47:32 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:47:36 <davidwood> q?
15:47:38 <Scott_Bauer> David: Not sure where to take this discussion.
15:48:14 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: have one proposal to point to. Need a straw man proposal.
15:48:23 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to mention real disagreement and/or semantics of SHOULD
15:48:48 <Scott_Bauer> David: Asks Richard to prepare the proposal
15:48:50 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
15:48:50 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention real disagreement and/or semantics of SHOULD
15:48:56 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: I can do that
15:49:16 <davidwood> Thanks to Richard
15:49:27 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to create up-to-date wiki page on ISSUE-12 proposal incl. arguments from the mailing list
15:49:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Create up-to-date wiki page on ISSUE-12 proposal incl. arguments from the mailing list [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-06-22].
15:49:28 <ivan> q+
15:49:32 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: For some reason literal design remains a very contentious issue
15:50:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... It takes up a lot of time for the working group
15:50:40 <Scott_Bauer> ... we will not make everyone happy
15:50:57 <Scott_Bauer> David: There are too many ways to express literals
15:51:53 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:51:53 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
15:52:06 <ericP> i read that as a proposal to discuss the type faces used to represent the number 1 in RDF serializations
15:52:49 <Scott_Bauer> Peter: OWL and RIF spent a lot of time hashing over the addition to literals. If a larger change is made it's a big change to solve a tiny thing.
15:52:53 <ericP> (ref to jjc's concearn that literals are too difficult 'cause they matter to too many folks)
15:53:11 <Scott_Bauer> ... strings with lang tags are not very comprehensive.
15:53:39 <Souri> I'll be happy if the only change we make is say that "abc" = "abc"^^xsd:string (and SPARQL query result could contain a string literal in either form and still be conformant)
15:53:40 <gavin> XML literals for language, oh god... No, no it isn't.
15:54:04 <Scott_Bauer> ... deprecation of lang type literals would make me happy
15:54:14 <LeeF> I'd be happy if Souri's happy
15:54:29 <Scott_Bauer> David: Key argument is we have lang type literals and rdf literals
15:55:02 <davidwood> The key argument is that we have plain literals, rdf:plainLiteral, and xsd:string literals.
15:55:05 <Scott_Bauer> Peter: Any OWL tool will handle any one of these and do the right thing
15:55:31 <gavin> I don't think anyone was
15:55:46 <Scott_Bauer> David: Who's objecting to collapsing the definitions
15:55:59 <LeeF> +10000 to leaving language tags aside :-)
15:56:08 <Scott_Bauer> Gavin: How to do it is the contentious issue
15:56:27 <Scott_Bauer> David: Would someone be willing to write up the propsal
15:56:31 <Scott_Bauer> Richard:
15:56:41 <Scott_Bauer> ... We have that already
15:57:04 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
15:58:25 <Scott_Bauer> David: Issue of contention was around sparql.
15:58:39 <AndyS> err - datatype("foo") is already xsd:string
15:59:07 <cygri> AndyS, but currently it needs an exception in the spec to make it so. that exception could go away
15:59:09 <yvesr> AndyS, so it's fine?
15:59:48 <AlexHall> I thought the SPARQL issue was around results serialization, not datatype("foo")
15:59:49 <AndyS> Yes - it's fine. The output issue is same-as RDF and not covered.
15:59:55 <Scott_Bauer> David: Requestinng that Lee have a look at the page and provide comments re: sparql
16:00:14 <AndyS> AlexHall, yes - we are only talking simple literals - no langs
16:00:22 <davidwood> q?
16:00:27 <AndyS> AlexHall, yes - we are only talking simple literals - no langs covered in this discussion
16:00:29 <Souri> I am worried about "One of the two forms should be forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1"
16:00:41 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to give unrequested advice to chairs
16:00:45 <pchampin> what would be called a "plain literal" then, anyway?
16:01:04 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:01:05 <Scott_Bauer> Lee: Spec has the data issue as an exception. Main concern term that sparql uses for simple literals no longer exist it has a more far reaching effect. Will take a look at it and take it to the sparql working group.
16:01:05 <AndyS> Souri, +1 -- and the answer should be use "foo" form.
16:01:12 <ericP> i think that removing "plain literal" mostly involves removing rows from the operator mapping and conditions for the function definitions
16:01:18 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to take http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain to SPARQL WG to gauge the impact on SPARQL process and schedule
16:01:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Take http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain to SPARQL WG to gauge the impact on SPARQL process and schedule [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-06-22].
16:01:28 <ericP> (having drafted most of the plain literal text)
16:01:48 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: procedural issue. The problem of strings was in the charter as a time permits issue.
16:02:00 <cygri> q+
16:02:12 <pfps> zakim, mute me
16:02:15 <Scott_Bauer> ... it would be ok if the working group decided to postpone the issue
16:02:18 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
16:02:27 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
16:02:27 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give unrequested advice to chairs
16:03:12 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: If the discussion goes on and on, a proposal vote should be taken
16:03:28 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:04:09 <ivan> q+
16:04:31 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: Yes it's a time permitting issue. We understand what's not possible. I would rather see the straw poll first.
16:04:45 <AndyS> SPARQL issue -- simple literal used as return type and arg in various functions - obvious changes though : would fix at least one current bug :-)
16:04:57 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:05:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... I think we are close to finding something
16:05:46 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: Issue has taken up a lot of energy. Named Graphs is something we must do.
16:06:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... We should not just close it but set a deadline
16:06:23 <davidwood> Straw poll: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
16:06:30 <Scott_Bauer> David: I want a straw poll right now.
16:07:58 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: Just to point out datatype is already xsd:string. If you ask for a datatype it returns string
16:08:21 <pchampin> q+ to ask about the term "plain literal"
16:08:36 <pchampin> ack me
16:08:52 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask about the term "plain literal"
16:08:59 <pfps> ls
16:09:10 <Souri> q+ to ask about the fourth item in the Issues: "SPARQL Results XML/JSON are hampered by the variability introduced by syntactic sugar. One of the two forms should be forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1."
16:09:29 <pfps> zakim, mute me
16:09:34 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:09:35 <davidwood> ack Souri
16:09:38 <pchampin> ok
16:09:41 <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps
16:09:47 <Zakim> Souri, you wanted to ask about the fourth item in the Issues: "SPARQL Results XML/JSON are hampered by the variability introduced by syntactic sugar. One of the two forms should be
16:09:52 <Zakim> ... forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1."
16:10:27 <Scott_Bauer> Souri: variability. Would we require sparql one of the two possible? If we are required to return xsd:string
16:10:37 <Scott_Bauer> ... That is a problem
16:10:43 <LeeF> I imagine it's up to the SPARQL WG how to handle that in the XML format?
16:10:55 <gavin> +1 LeeF, someone elses issue
16:11:04 <Scott_Bauer> David: if you return quote: foo as a literal you should know that is an xsd:string
16:11:13 <Scott_Bauer> Souri: thats fine
16:11:21 <davidwood> q?
16:11:49 <cygri> q+
16:12:04 <Scott_Bauer> Pierre: A suggestion. Maybe we can keep the plain literal which are semantically an xsd:string
16:12:27 <LeeF> Pierre++
16:12:35 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:12:39 <Scott_Bauer> David: that makes a lot of sense to me
16:12:50 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: I agree with this absolutely
16:13:12 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:13:17 <LeeF> If RDF can do this by adjusting definitions of the existing terms that SPARQL Query leans on, that would be _great_
16:13:37 <Scott_Bauer> David: lets take a quick straw poll
16:13:46 <pfps> like
16:13:48 <AndyS> +1 and preferred output form (SHOULD -- MUST is hard due to compatibility) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF and in SPARQL results (proposal needs updating to cover this case - not leave open)
16:13:52 <davidwood> +1 to our current understanding of the proposal
16:14:00 <pchampin> +1
16:14:02 <AlexHall> +1
16:14:03 <davidwood> +1 to AndyS
16:14:07 <LeeF> +1 with Cambridge Semantics hat on, reserving judgment with SPARQL WG chair hat on
16:14:11 <Souri> +1 to AndyS
16:14:13 <MacTed> +1
16:14:13 <mbrunati> +1
16:14:18 <Guus> +1
16:14:19 <cmatheus> +1
16:14:20 <yvesr> +1
16:14:23 <gavin> +1
16:14:28 <AZ> +1
16:14:45 <JeremyCarroll> +1
16:14:45 <ivan> 1
16:15:15 <gavin> Who cares about language tags? ;)
16:15:17 <ericP> +1
16:15:32 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to give more unsolicited advice
16:15:47 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
16:15:47 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give more unsolicited advice
16:15:55 <Scott_Bauer> David: We seem to agree on three quarter of this proposal
16:16:00 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
16:16:05 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:16:16 <Scott_Bauer> David: Let's take a formal vote since there are no objectsions
16:16:37 <Souri> s/objectsions/objections/
16:16:53 <Scott_Bauer> PROPOSAL: Accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
16:17:11 <LeeF> Pat has spent a lot of time restating cygri's proposals, so I imagine he'd be happy with this
16:17:12 <JeremyCarroll> if pat wishes to object he can in the e-mail
16:17:23 <JeremyCarroll> and then we deal with that next week
16:17:31 <JeremyCarroll> same for any wg member
16:17:41 <davidwood> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF and in SPARQL results
16:18:00 <cygri> +1
16:18:00 <Souri> +1
16:18:03 <davidwood> +1
16:18:06 <AlexHall> +1
16:18:17 <pfps> +1
16:18:31 <Guus> +1
16:18:41 <Scott_Bauer> PROPOSED: Accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
16:18:51 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:19:07 <pfps> Where does the proposal talk about SPARQL? All the SPARQL stuff is in the issues, right?
16:19:22 <cygri> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same
16:19:29 <gavin> and recomend that any concrete syntax SHOULD use "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string
16:19:34 <LeeF> pfps, just in the proposal that davidwood just wrote on IRC
16:19:41 <AndyS> pfps - david's proposal says "SPARQL results"
16:19:51 <pfps> Of course, any change to RDF may impact SPARQL, and this does, but that is the main reason why we are doing this now, as opposed to later.
16:20:04 <davidwood> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same
16:20:06 <cygri> +1
16:20:09 <Souri> +1
16:20:10 <davidwood> +1
16:20:10 <cmatheus> +1
16:20:11 <mbrunati> +1
16:20:14 <LeeF> +1
16:20:21 <JeremyCarroll> +1
16:20:22 <pfps> ooh, right - I was looking at the wiki page
16:20:23 <AlexHall> +1
16:20:23 <AndyS> +1
16:20:26 <pfps> +1
16:20:27 <gavin> +1
16:20:28 <AndyS> (give or take the unicode char 001C)
16:20:29 <Scott_Bauer> David: Let's vote again on Richard's phrasing
16:20:35 <ivan> +1
16:20:41 <davidwood> RESOLVED: to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same
16:20:47 <pchampin> +1
16:21:47 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:22:00 <Zakim> -mischat
16:22:01 <AndyS> q+
16:22:12 <pfps> OWL already strongly suggests using "foo" in concrete syntaxes
16:22:36 <Scott_Bauer> David: Lee will get back to me in relation to sparql
16:22:48 <davidwood> ack AndyS
16:23:00 <AndyS> ack me
16:23:02 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: Compatability does matter
16:23:36 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: How do we make sure popular implementers are informed as soon as possible.
16:23:40 <gavin> rdflib already does this... sort of... via buggy string implementations ;)
16:23:44 <cygri> s/Richard/ivan/
16:23:48 <Scott_Bauer> David: I suggest a blog post.
16:24:47 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, who is speaking
16:24:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is speaking', Scott_Bauer
16:24:58 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, who is talking
16:24:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', Scott_Bauer
16:25:23 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
16:25:27 <Scott_Bauer> David: Officially adjourned
16:25:31 <mbrunati> bye
16:25:31 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:25:32 <AZ> bye
16:25:33 <Zakim> -cmatheus
16:25:33 <Zakim> -Souri
16:25:34 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:25:34 <Zakim> -cygri
16:25:35 <Zakim> -mbrunati
16:25:35 <Zakim> -[Sophia]
16:25:37 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
16:25:37 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:25:38 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:25:40 <Zakim> -davidwood
16:25:42 <Zakim> -gavin
16:25:44 <Zakim> -AZ
16:25:48 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:25:56 <Zakim> -pfps
16:26:06 <Zakim> -EricP
16:31:38 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000476
</nowiki></pre>

Chatlog 2011-06-15

Sbauer2 — Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:44:39 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
14:26:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:26:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-rdf-wg-irc
14:26:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:26:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:26:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:26:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
14:26:59 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:27:00 <trackbot> Date: 15 June 2011
14:29:39 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:31:43 <AndyS> AndyS has left #rdf-wg
14:31:48 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:43:18 <gavin> gavin has joined #rdf-wg
14:54:44 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
14:55:00 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
14:55:42 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:55:49 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aaaa
14:56:43 <Zakim> +Bernadette
14:57:01 <davidwood> Zakim, Bernadette is davidwood
14:57:01 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
14:57:13 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
14:57:20 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aabb
14:57:23 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:57:23 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:57:25 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:57:25 <Zakim> +Tony
14:57:39 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me
14:57:39 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
14:57:41 <Olivier> Olivier has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:46 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:49 <Zakim> +??P13
14:58:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
14:58:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, +1.760.705.aabb, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, ??P13
14:58:51 <Zakim> +LeeF
14:59:01 <AZ> Zakim, Bernadette is me
14:59:02 <Zakim> sorry, AZ, I do not recognize a party named 'Bernadette'
14:59:02 <mbrunati> zakim ??P13 is me
14:59:25 <gavin> If you were Bernadatte now your davidwood ;)
14:59:26 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P13 is me
14:59:31 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
14:59:37 <Zakim> +??P6
14:59:37 <LeeF> AZ, bernadette was davidwood, not you
14:59:54 <davidwood> AZ, Bernadette dialed from our office number earlier for the SWCG call, so I'm sure it is me now.
14:59:57 <Zakim> +[Sophia]
15:00:09 <cmatheus> zakim, ??P6 is me
15:00:09 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it
15:00:18 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:25 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:08 <AZ> Zakim, +1.760.705.aabb is me
15:01:08 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:01:19 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aacc
15:01:26 <AlexHall> zakim, aacc is me
15:01:26 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:01:31 <Zakim> + +1.303.474.aadd
15:01:48 <Zakim> +??P18
15:01:52 <AndyS> zakim, ??P18 is me
15:01:52 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:02:23 <moustaki> moustaki has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:57 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:03:00 <Zakim> +Souri
15:03:06 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:03:06 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:03:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:03:08 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:03:08 <pfps> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, +1.303.474.aadd, AndyS, MacTed, Souri
15:03:21 <Zakim> +??P28
15:03:30 <Zakim> +??P33
15:03:39 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:40 <pfps> Zakim, mute me
15:03:42 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:03:44 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P28 is yvesr
15:03:45 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:04:06 <mischat> zakim, ??�P33 is me
15:04:06 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '??�P33'
15:04:38 <mischat> zakim, +??P33 is mischat
15:04:38 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'
15:04:46 <mischat> zakim, +??P33 is me
15:04:46 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'
15:04:47 <Scott_Bauer> rrsagent, make records public
15:04:57 <davidwood> pfps, 61#
15:04:58 <ericP> ericP has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:13 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:20 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:05:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, +1.303.474.aadd (muted), AndyS, MacTed (muted), Souri, yvesr, ??P33
15:05:23 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:05:24 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), zwu2
15:05:31 <MacTed> Zakim, P33 is mischat
15:05:31 <Zakim> sorry, MacTed, I do not recognize a party named 'P33'
15:05:33 <Scott_Bauer> Scribe: Scott_Bauer
15:05:34 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:05:34 <pfps> Zakim, MacTed is me
15:05:34 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:05:45 <davidwood> scribenick: Scott_Bauer
15:05:58 <Zakim> +[Sophia.a]
15:05:59 <Zakim> + +1.408.642.aaee
15:06:06 <MacTed> Zakim, ??P33 is mischat
15:06:06 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:06:09 <Zakim> + +1.415.586.aaff
15:06:15 <FabGandon> Zakim, Sophia.a is me
15:06:15 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
15:06:15 <MacTed> Zakim, pfps is OpenLink_Software
15:06:17 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
15:06:23 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:06:23 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:06:36 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 June telecon:
15:06:36 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-08
15:06:38 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: June 8 telcon minutes
15:06:42 <MacTed> pfps - where are you calling from? might +1.303.474.aadd be you?
15:06:59 <Scott_Bauer> david: Made changes but they were not promulgated
15:07:26 <Scott_Bauer> ... edited to capture resolution on issue-60
15:07:45 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:55 <Scott_Bauer> ... closed issue-60 in the tracker, but it doesn't show in the minutes
15:08:21 <pfps> zakim, aadd is me
15:08:21 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:08:25 <Scott_Bauer> ... will check with Sandro
15:08:26 <gavin> Fixed
15:08:28 <pfps> q-
15:08:30 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:08:38 <gavin> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-08 is now correct
15:08:39 <MacTed> ack aadd
15:08:44 <MacTed> ack +1.303.474.aadd
15:08:52 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:08:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, pfps (muted), AndyS, MacTed (muted), Souri, yvesr, mischat, FabGandon,
15:08:56 <Zakim> ... +1.408.642.aaee, +1.415.586.aaff
15:09:15 <Scott_Bauer> Gavin: its all fixed
15:09:34 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:38 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:09:50 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
15:09:50 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:10:06 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: problems with issue-58
15:10:20 <Scott_Bauer> David: closed presumed to be archaic
15:10:37 <AlexHall> I see the resolution in the minutes
15:11:04 <gavin> I'll fix it ;)(
15:11:20 <LeeF> thanks, gavin
15:12:03 <Scott_Bauer> David: I will fix it
15:12:57 <pfps> Zakim, mute me
15:12:58 <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps
15:13:17 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:13:26 <AndyS> Absent any info, presume as per proposal (close, do nothing), but it does not actually say that in the issue tracker.
15:13:53 <Scott_Bauer> David: The wiki is now correct
15:14:33 <Scott_Bauer> ... The minutes from June 8 are accepted
15:14:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... Richard has claimed victory on action-59
15:15:12 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Documents
15:15:32 <Scott_Bauer> ... Peter had action-69
15:15:35 <pfps> yes, my action is done!
15:15:51 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:16:19 <Scott_Bauer> ... passing by Dan, Sandro
15:16:49 <davidwood> Scribes page proposes the summer telecon schedule: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes
15:17:22 <pfps> fine by m
15:17:25 <pfps> s/m/me/
15:17:31 <Scott_Bauer> ... Any objections to the summer telecon schedule as shown
15:17:52 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:18:02 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (13%), yvesr (82%)
15:18:07 <MacTed> Zakim, mute yvesr
15:18:07 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted
15:18:11 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me
15:18:11 <Zakim> yvesr was already muted, yvesr
15:18:43 <davidwood> RESOLVED: to accept the summer telecon schedule.
15:18:44 <Scott_Bauer> ... resolved to accept the schedule as written
15:19:23 <Scott_Bauer> ... Action 56 from Antoine. Guus also not here.
15:19:47 <AZ> Scott, it's not for Antoine, it's Pierre-Antoine's action
15:19:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... Closing the action item for Guus
15:20:35 <Scott_Bauer> ... Pierre-Antoine for action 56 (correction to the above)
15:20:36 <AndyS> ping ericP (Q from chair)
15:20:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... leaving turtle document action open.
15:20:58 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile
15:20:58 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
15:21:00 <Zakim> +EricP
15:21:03 <davidwood> SPARQL/RDF WG Meeting regarding graph terminology:
15:21:03 <davidwood> Poll at http://www.doodle.com/iny935vc6n67vxpv
15:21:33 <Scott_Bauer> ... action item to schedule graph terminology discussion a poll is posted.
15:21:46 <davidwood> Revisit RDF Postponed Issues
15:21:46 <Scott_Bauer> ... brings us back to postponed issues
15:21:55 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: Postponed issues
15:22:04 <AZ> +1 to close it
15:22:04 <AndyS> Currently, 22/June and 6/July most "yes"s -- 15:00 (UTC+01)
15:22:20 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/59
15:22:20 <davidwood> See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0063.html where Peter proposes to close as "opened in error".
15:22:30 <pfps> +1 to close 59
15:22:38 <Scott_Bauer> david: issue 59 opened in error and proposal is to closse as suggested by Peter
15:22:39 <ivan> +1
15:22:42 <davidwood> +1 to close
15:22:44 <cygri> +1 to close ISSUE-59
15:22:46 <zwu2> +1 close
15:22:50 <mbrunati> +1 to close
15:22:55 <cmatheus> +1 close
15:22:58 <yvesr> +1
15:23:01 <pfps> OK
15:23:52 <Scott_Bauer> RESOLVED: Issue-59 was CLOSED because it was opened in error by the last RDF WG. See: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/59
15:23:52 <Scott_Bauer> ... issue-62 in relation to the turtle doc Guus to discuss with Eric.
15:23:57 <gavin> I did talk to eric last week!
15:24:01 <davidwood> ISSUE-62: Revisit "The test cases manifest format has a semantic error"
15:24:01 <trackbot> ISSUE-62 Revisit "The test cases manifest format has a semantic error" notes added
15:24:43 <Scott_Bauer> ... Richard proposed continuing issue-62 proposed to be moved from raised to open
15:24:45 <davidwood> Propose to OPEN ISSUE-62 for later discussions
15:25:02 <cygri> (I think it was danbri who proposed to continue this .... but i agree)
15:25:36 <Scott_Bauer> ... any objections to opening 62, hearing none it is open
15:25:36 <Scott_Bauer> RESOLVED: Issue-62 was OPENED because we need to consider it properly. See:
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/62
15:25:48 <Scott_Bauer> ... Moves us to issue-12
15:25:51 <davidwood> ISSUE-12: Reconcile various forms of string literals
15:25:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-12 Reconcile various forms of string literals (time permitting) notes added
15:26:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... Guus thought we were close to consensus.
15:26:10 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/12
15:26:11 <davidwood> Are we reaching consensus: see thread starting with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0010.html
15:26:11 <davidwood> No :) See William's proposal and resulting thread at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0069.html
15:26:23 <Scott_Bauer> ... William made a proposal and I think we are not close.
15:26:23 <AndyS> ww sent regrets
15:26:39 <cygri> q+
15:26:41 <JeremyCarroll> q+
15:26:47 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:26:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... looking back on thread a contrary test case was stated.
15:27:07 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
15:28:14 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: May need to take this off line. The first working group put the lang treatments in late in the day.
15:28:29 <Scott_Bauer> ... late change to the desing of model and syntax.
15:28:53 <Souri> s/desing/design/
15:28:57 <Scott_Bauer> ... 2004 working group felt they weren't able to change the design and the intent of the rdf-wg wasn't clear.
15:29:24 <Zakim> -yvesr
15:29:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... the question is should we fix the design or live with it.
15:30:31 <Scott_Bauer> David: Owl wg expressed a concern in changing datatypes
15:31:01 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: Advantages of the current design is that it works well with DL
15:31:21 <AndyS> Was there a specific example of what possible change messes OWL up?
15:31:38 <Scott_Bauer> ... current design more targeted at more niave user
15:32:24 <Scott_Bauer> David: We already have plain strings. Don't really buy the arguments we are breaking rdf
15:32:53 <davidwood> AndyS, IanH expressed concern over any change to datatypes because that would require changes in OWL.
15:33:49 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: Language tags as datatypes have significant opposition.
15:34:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... other proposal with not too much opposition to abandon the untagged strings and leave the tag literals as they are now.
15:35:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... leaving plain literals as syntatic sugar
15:35:39 <Scott_Bauer> ... what problems would we still work out. What does this mean for OWL. Peter raised some concerns
15:35:58 <Scott_Bauer> ... some questions about how to deal with this in the syntaxs
15:36:09 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to address OWL concerns
15:36:36 <Scott_Bauer> ... curious to hear if this would raise concerns in OWL and Sparql
15:36:58 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
15:36:58 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to address OWL concerns
15:37:56 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: one of the constraints changes may break OWL. They mean by OWL is OWL DL. Mapping from triples into some other language.
15:38:04 <pfps> q+
15:38:07 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:38:07 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
15:38:29 <davidwood> ack pfps
15:38:30 <AndyS> SPARQL -- it's only result of DATATYPE("foo"@en) --> in detail, if class, not datatype, still err but unexpected? SPARQL could just fib a bit and return rdf:LTS.
15:38:32 <Scott_Bauer> ... cause a greater divergence between OWL and RDF.
15:39:24 <Scott_Bauer> Peter: Any change to RDF (substantive) would be changes to OWL RL systems
15:40:08 <Scott_Bauer> Alex: Some details might change in mapping layer, but mapping is transparent for us from rules to sparql queries.
15:40:23 <pfps> zakim, mute me
15:40:23 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
15:40:34 <cygri> q+
15:40:45 <Scott_Bauer> David: Lacking some of the people who could support Richard's proposal are not here.
15:41:04 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:41:06 <zwu2> I have to leave early to attend a customer meeting
15:41:08 <Scott_Bauer> ... Ian is invited to express OWL concerns in the future
15:41:12 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:41:12 <zwu2> bye
15:41:20 <Zakim> - +1.408.642.aaee
15:41:48 <Zakim> +??P19
15:41:54 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P23 is me
15:41:54 <Zakim> sorry, yvesr, I do not recognize a party named '??P23'
15:42:00 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: How does this related to sparql. Two places where its affected. Returning a lang type string currently causes an error.
15:42:13 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P33 is me
15:42:13 <Zakim> I already had ??P33 as mischat, yvesr
15:42:14 <pfps> of course, it is not just OWL RL systems that have to change, but also OWL DL systems - my view is that most OWL DL implementers would not care too much, as long as the changes can be fit into OWL DL, changes to the OWL documents might be more problematic
15:42:18 <AndyS> q+
15:43:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... serializtion of sparql results xsd: string and plain literal are the same in the design with of those is supposed to be produced. How should code be written.
15:43:40 <davidwood> ack AndyS
15:44:04 <davidwood> pfps, Alex (Revelytix) is an OWL RL implementor.
15:44:11 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: to the second point. Policy should be consistant between rdf and sparql results.
15:45:44 <Scott_Bauer> Lee: One place to serialized it and do so in a simple form. If rdf-wg goes in this direction charter implications may be affected.
15:45:54 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: no charter implications
15:46:12 <AlexHall> We are a RIF implementor. Presumably changes to OWL RL would be reflected as changes to the rules as expressed in the profiles doc. We can handle those changes quite easily.
15:46:21 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: The one without the datatype markings should imply the other form is still valid.
15:46:28 <LeeF> ivan, thanks, did not realize that XML results document was already in our charter, so that's something, at least
15:46:31 <davidwood> AlexHall, Thanks
15:46:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... the consumer has to be prepared to deal with eithe form.
15:47:32 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:47:36 <davidwood> q?
15:47:38 <Scott_Bauer> David: Not sure where to take this discussion.
15:48:14 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: have one proposal to point to. Need a straw man proposal.
15:48:23 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to mention real disagreement and/or semantics of SHOULD
15:48:48 <Scott_Bauer> David: Asks Richard to prepare the proposal
15:48:50 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
15:48:50 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention real disagreement and/or semantics of SHOULD
15:48:56 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: I can do that
15:49:16 <davidwood> Thanks to Richard
15:49:27 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to create up-to-date wiki page on ISSUE-12 proposal incl. arguments from the mailing list
15:49:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Create up-to-date wiki page on ISSUE-12 proposal incl. arguments from the mailing list [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-06-22].
15:49:28 <ivan> q+
15:49:32 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: For some reason literal design remains a very contentious issue
15:50:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... It takes up a lot of time for the working group
15:50:40 <Scott_Bauer> ... we will not make everyone happy
15:50:57 <Scott_Bauer> David: There are too many ways to express literals
15:51:53 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:51:53 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
15:52:06 <ericP> i read that as a proposal to discuss the type faces used to represent the number 1 in RDF serializations
15:52:49 <Scott_Bauer> Peter: OWL and RIF spent a lot of time hashing over the addition to literals. If a larger change is made it's a big change to solve a tiny thing.
15:52:53 <ericP> (ref to jjc's concearn that literals are too difficult 'cause they matter to too many folks)
15:53:11 <Scott_Bauer> ... strings with lang tags are not very comprehensive.
15:53:39 <Souri> I'll be happy if the only change we make is say that "abc" = "abc"^^xsd:string (and SPARQL query result could contain a string literal in either form and still be conformant)
15:53:40 <gavin> XML literals for language, oh god... No, no it isn't.
15:54:04 <Scott_Bauer> ... deprecation of lang type literals would make me happy
15:54:14 <LeeF> I'd be happy if Souri's happy
15:54:29 <Scott_Bauer> David: Key argument is we have lang type literals and rdf literals
15:55:02 <davidwood> The key argument is that we have plain literals, rdf:plainLiteral, and xsd:string literals.
15:55:05 <Scott_Bauer> Peter: Any OWL tool will handle any one of these and do the right thing
15:55:31 <gavin> I don't think anyone was
15:55:46 <Scott_Bauer> David: Who's objecting to collapsing the definitions
15:55:59 <LeeF> +10000 to leaving language tags aside :-)
15:56:08 <Scott_Bauer> Gavin: How to do it is the contentious issue
15:56:27 <Scott_Bauer> David: Would someone be willing to write up the propsal
15:56:31 <Scott_Bauer> Richard:
15:56:41 <Scott_Bauer> ... We have that already
15:57:04 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
15:58:25 <Scott_Bauer> David: Issue of contention was around sparql.
15:58:39 <AndyS> err - datatype("foo") is already xsd:string
15:59:07 <cygri> AndyS, but currently it needs an exception in the spec to make it so. that exception could go away
15:59:09 <yvesr> AndyS, so it's fine?
15:59:48 <AlexHall> I thought the SPARQL issue was around results serialization, not datatype("foo")
15:59:49 <AndyS> Yes - it's fine. The output issue is same-as RDF and not covered.
15:59:55 <Scott_Bauer> David: Requestinng that Lee have a look at the page and provide comments re: sparql
16:00:14 <AndyS> AlexHall, yes - we are only talking simple literals - no langs
16:00:22 <davidwood> q?
16:00:27 <AndyS> AlexHall, yes - we are only talking simple literals - no langs covered in this discussion
16:00:29 <Souri> I am worried about "One of the two forms should be forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1"
16:00:41 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to give unrequested advice to chairs
16:00:45 <pchampin> what would be called a "plain literal" then, anyway?
16:01:04 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:01:05 <Scott_Bauer> Lee: Spec has the data issue as an exception. Main concern term that sparql uses for simple literals no longer exist it has a more far reaching effect. Will take a look at it and take it to the sparql working group.
16:01:05 <AndyS> Souri, +1 -- and the answer should be use "foo" form.
16:01:12 <ericP> i think that removing "plain literal" mostly involves removing rows from the operator mapping and conditions for the function definitions
16:01:18 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to take http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain to SPARQL WG to gauge the impact on SPARQL process and schedule
16:01:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Take http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain to SPARQL WG to gauge the impact on SPARQL process and schedule [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-06-22].
16:01:28 <ericP> (having drafted most of the plain literal text)
16:01:48 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: procedural issue. The problem of strings was in the charter as a time permits issue.
16:02:00 <cygri> q+
16:02:12 <pfps> zakim, mute me
16:02:15 <Scott_Bauer> ... it would be ok if the working group decided to postpone the issue
16:02:18 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
16:02:27 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
16:02:27 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give unrequested advice to chairs
16:03:12 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: If the discussion goes on and on, a proposal vote should be taken
16:03:28 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:04:09 <ivan> q+
16:04:31 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: Yes it's a time permitting issue. We understand what's not possible. I would rather see the straw poll first.
16:04:45 <AndyS> SPARQL issue -- simple literal used as return type and arg in various functions - obvious changes though : would fix at least one current bug :-)
16:04:57 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:05:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... I think we are close to finding something
16:05:46 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: Issue has taken up a lot of energy. Named Graphs is something we must do.
16:06:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... We should not just close it but set a deadline
16:06:23 <davidwood> Straw poll: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
16:06:30 <Scott_Bauer> David: I want a straw poll right now.
16:07:58 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: Just to point out datatype is already xsd:string. If you ask for a datatype it returns string
16:08:21 <pchampin> q+ to ask about the term "plain literal"
16:08:36 <pchampin> ack me
16:08:52 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask about the term "plain literal"
16:08:59 <pfps> ls
16:09:10 <Souri> q+ to ask about the fourth item in the Issues: "SPARQL Results XML/JSON are hampered by the variability introduced by syntactic sugar. One of the two forms should be forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1."
16:09:29 <pfps> zakim, mute me
16:09:34 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:09:35 <davidwood> ack Souri
16:09:38 <pchampin> ok
16:09:41 <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps
16:09:47 <Zakim> Souri, you wanted to ask about the fourth item in the Issues: "SPARQL Results XML/JSON are hampered by the variability introduced by syntactic sugar. One of the two forms should be
16:09:52 <Zakim> ... forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1."
16:10:27 <Scott_Bauer> Souri: variability. Would we require sparql one of the two possible? If we are required to return xsd:string
16:10:37 <Scott_Bauer> ... That is a problem
16:10:43 <LeeF> I imagine it's up to the SPARQL WG how to handle that in the XML format?
16:10:55 <gavin> +1 LeeF, someone elses issue
16:11:04 <Scott_Bauer> David: if you return quote: foo as a literal you should know that is an xsd:string
16:11:13 <Scott_Bauer> Souri: thats fine
16:11:21 <davidwood> q?
16:11:49 <cygri> q+
16:12:04 <Scott_Bauer> Pierre: A suggestion. Maybe we can keep the plain literal which are semantically an xsd:string
16:12:27 <LeeF> Pierre++
16:12:35 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:12:39 <Scott_Bauer> David: that makes a lot of sense to me
16:12:50 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: I agree with this absolutely
16:13:12 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:13:17 <LeeF> If RDF can do this by adjusting definitions of the existing terms that SPARQL Query leans on, that would be _great_
16:13:37 <Scott_Bauer> David: lets take a quick straw poll
16:13:46 <pfps> like
16:13:48 <AndyS> +1 and preferred output form (SHOULD -- MUST is hard due to compatibility) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF and in SPARQL results (proposal needs updating to cover this case - not leave open)
16:13:52 <davidwood> +1 to our current understanding of the proposal
16:14:00 <pchampin> +1
16:14:02 <AlexHall> +1
16:14:03 <davidwood> +1 to AndyS
16:14:07 <LeeF> +1 with Cambridge Semantics hat on, reserving judgment with SPARQL WG chair hat on
16:14:11 <Souri> +1 to AndyS
16:14:13 <MacTed> +1
16:14:13 <mbrunati> +1
16:14:18 <Guus> +1
16:14:19 <cmatheus> +1
16:14:20 <yvesr> +1
16:14:23 <gavin> +1
16:14:28 <AZ> +1
16:14:45 <JeremyCarroll> +1
16:14:45 <ivan> 1
16:15:15 <gavin> Who cares about language tags? ;)
16:15:17 <ericP> +1
16:15:32 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to give more unsolicited advice
16:15:47 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
16:15:47 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give more unsolicited advice
16:15:55 <Scott_Bauer> David: We seem to agree on three quarter of this proposal
16:16:00 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
16:16:05 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:16:16 <Scott_Bauer> David: Let's take a formal vote since there are no objectsions
16:16:37 <Souri> s/objectsions/objections/
16:16:53 <Scott_Bauer> PROPOSAL: Accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
16:17:11 <LeeF> Pat has spent a lot of time restating cygri's proposals, so I imagine he'd be happy with this
16:17:12 <JeremyCarroll> if pat wishes to object he can in the e-mail
16:17:23 <JeremyCarroll> and then we deal with that next week
16:17:31 <JeremyCarroll> same for any wg member
16:17:41 <davidwood> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF and in SPARQL results
16:18:00 <cygri> +1
16:18:00 <Souri> +1
16:18:03 <davidwood> +1
16:18:06 <AlexHall> +1
16:18:17 <pfps> +1
16:18:31 <Guus> +1
16:18:41 <Scott_Bauer> PROPOSED: Accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
16:18:51 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:19:07 <pfps> Where does the proposal talk about SPARQL? All the SPARQL stuff is in the issues, right?
16:19:22 <cygri> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same
16:19:29 <gavin> and recomend that any concrete syntax SHOULD use "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string
16:19:34 <LeeF> pfps, just in the proposal that davidwood just wrote on IRC
16:19:41 <AndyS> pfps - david's proposal says "SPARQL results"
16:19:51 <pfps> Of course, any change to RDF may impact SPARQL, and this does, but that is the main reason why we are doing this now, as opposed to later.
16:20:04 <davidwood> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same
16:20:06 <cygri> +1
16:20:09 <Souri> +1
16:20:10 <davidwood> +1
16:20:10 <cmatheus> +1
16:20:11 <mbrunati> +1
16:20:14 <LeeF> +1
16:20:21 <JeremyCarroll> +1
16:20:22 <pfps> ooh, right - I was looking at the wiki page
16:20:23 <AlexHall> +1
16:20:23 <AndyS> +1
16:20:26 <pfps> +1
16:20:27 <gavin> +1
16:20:28 <AndyS> (give or take the unicode char 001C)
16:20:29 <Scott_Bauer> David: Let's vote again on Richard's phrasing
16:20:35 <ivan> +1
16:20:41 <davidwood> RESOLVED: to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same
16:20:47 <pchampin> +1
16:21:47 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:22:00 <Zakim> -mischat
16:22:01 <AndyS> q+
16:22:12 <pfps> OWL already strongly suggests using "foo" in concrete syntaxes
16:22:36 <Scott_Bauer> David: Lee will get back to me in relation to sparql
16:22:48 <davidwood> ack AndyS
16:23:00 <AndyS> ack me
16:23:02 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: Compatability does matter
16:23:36 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: How do we make sure popular implementers are informed as soon as possible.
16:23:40 <gavin> rdflib already does this... sort of... via buggy string implementations ;)
16:23:44 <cygri> s/Richard/ivan/
16:23:48 <Scott_Bauer> David: I suggest a blog post.
16:24:47 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, who is speaking
16:24:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is speaking', Scott_Bauer
16:24:58 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, who is talking
16:24:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', Scott_Bauer
16:25:23 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
16:25:27 <Scott_Bauer> David: Officially adjourned
16:25:31 <mbrunati> bye
16:25:31 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:25:32 <AZ> bye
16:25:33 <Zakim> -cmatheus
16:25:33 <Zakim> -Souri
16:25:34 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:25:34 <Zakim> -cygri
16:25:35 <Zakim> -mbrunati
16:25:35 <Zakim> -[Sophia]
16:25:37 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
16:25:37 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:25:38 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:25:40 <Zakim> -davidwood
16:25:42 <Zakim> -gavin
16:25:44 <Zakim> -AZ
16:25:48 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:25:56 <Zakim> -pfps
16:26:06 <Zakim> -EricP
16:31:38 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
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Chatlog 2011-06-15

Sbauer2 — Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:43:01 GMT

Sbauer2:

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<pre><nowiki>
14:26:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:26:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-rdf-wg-irc
14:26:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:26:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:26:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:26:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
14:26:59 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:27:00 <trackbot> Date: 15 June 2011
14:29:39 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:31:43 <AndyS> AndyS has left #rdf-wg
14:31:48 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:43:18 <gavin> gavin has joined #rdf-wg
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14:55:00 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
14:55:42 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:55:49 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aaaa
14:56:43 <Zakim> +Bernadette
14:57:01 <davidwood> Zakim, Bernadette is davidwood
14:57:01 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
14:57:13 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
14:57:20 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aabb
14:57:23 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:57:23 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:57:25 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:57:25 <Zakim> +Tony
14:57:39 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me
14:57:39 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
14:57:41 <Olivier> Olivier has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:46 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:49 <Zakim> +??P13
14:58:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
14:58:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, +1.760.705.aabb, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, ??P13
14:58:51 <Zakim> +LeeF
14:59:01 <AZ> Zakim, Bernadette is me
14:59:02 <Zakim> sorry, AZ, I do not recognize a party named 'Bernadette'
14:59:02 <mbrunati> zakim ??P13 is me
14:59:25 <gavin> If you were Bernadatte now your davidwood ;)
14:59:26 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P13 is me
14:59:31 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
14:59:37 <Zakim> +??P6
14:59:37 <LeeF> AZ, bernadette was davidwood, not you
14:59:54 <davidwood> AZ, Bernadette dialed from our office number earlier for the SWCG call, so I'm sure it is me now.
14:59:57 <Zakim> +[Sophia]
15:00:09 <cmatheus> zakim, ??P6 is me
15:00:09 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it
15:00:18 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:25 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:08 <AZ> Zakim, +1.760.705.aabb is me
15:01:08 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:01:19 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aacc
15:01:26 <AlexHall> zakim, aacc is me
15:01:26 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:01:31 <Zakim> + +1.303.474.aadd
15:01:48 <Zakim> +??P18
15:01:52 <AndyS> zakim, ??P18 is me
15:01:52 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:02:23 <moustaki> moustaki has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:57 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:03:00 <Zakim> +Souri
15:03:06 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:03:06 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:03:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:03:08 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:03:08 <pfps> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, +1.303.474.aadd, AndyS, MacTed, Souri
15:03:21 <Zakim> +??P28
15:03:30 <Zakim> +??P33
15:03:39 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:40 <pfps> Zakim, mute me
15:03:42 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:03:44 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P28 is yvesr
15:03:45 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:04:06 <mischat> zakim, ??�P33 is me
15:04:06 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '??�P33'
15:04:38 <mischat> zakim, +??P33 is mischat
15:04:38 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'
15:04:46 <mischat> zakim, +??P33 is me
15:04:46 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'
15:04:47 <Scott_Bauer> rrsagent, make records public
15:04:57 <davidwood> pfps, 61#
15:04:58 <ericP> ericP has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:13 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:20 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:05:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, +1.303.474.aadd (muted), AndyS, MacTed (muted), Souri, yvesr, ??P33
15:05:23 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:05:24 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), zwu2
15:05:31 <MacTed> Zakim, P33 is mischat
15:05:31 <Zakim> sorry, MacTed, I do not recognize a party named 'P33'
15:05:33 <Scott_Bauer> Scribe: Scott_Bauer
15:05:34 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:05:34 <pfps> Zakim, MacTed is me
15:05:34 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:05:45 <davidwood> scribenick: Scott_Bauer
15:05:58 <Zakim> +[Sophia.a]
15:05:59 <Zakim> + +1.408.642.aaee
15:06:06 <MacTed> Zakim, ??P33 is mischat
15:06:06 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:06:09 <Zakim> + +1.415.586.aaff
15:06:15 <FabGandon> Zakim, Sophia.a is me
15:06:15 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
15:06:15 <MacTed> Zakim, pfps is OpenLink_Software
15:06:17 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
15:06:23 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:06:23 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:06:36 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 June telecon:
15:06:36 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-08
15:06:38 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: June 8 telcon minutes
15:06:42 <MacTed> pfps - where are you calling from? might +1.303.474.aadd be you?
15:06:59 <Scott_Bauer> david: Made changes but they were not promulgated
15:07:26 <Scott_Bauer> ... edited to capture resolution on issue-60
15:07:45 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:55 <Scott_Bauer> ... closed issue-60 in the tracker, but it doesn't show in the minutes
15:08:21 <pfps> zakim, aadd is me
15:08:21 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:08:25 <Scott_Bauer> ... will check with Sandro
15:08:26 <gavin> Fixed
15:08:28 <pfps> q-
15:08:30 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:08:38 <gavin> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-08 is now correct
15:08:39 <MacTed> ack aadd
15:08:44 <MacTed> ack +1.303.474.aadd
15:08:52 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:08:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, pfps (muted), AndyS, MacTed (muted), Souri, yvesr, mischat, FabGandon,
15:08:56 <Zakim> ... +1.408.642.aaee, +1.415.586.aaff
15:09:15 <Scott_Bauer> Gavin: its all fixed
15:09:34 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:38 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:09:50 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
15:09:50 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:10:06 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: problems with issue-58
15:10:20 <Scott_Bauer> David: closed presumed to be archaic
15:10:37 <AlexHall> I see the resolution in the minutes
15:11:04 <gavin> I'll fix it ;)(
15:11:20 <LeeF> thanks, gavin
15:12:03 <Scott_Bauer> David: I will fix it
15:12:57 <pfps> Zakim, mute me
15:12:58 <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps
15:13:17 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:13:26 <AndyS> Absent any info, presume as per proposal (close, do nothing), but it does not actually say that in the issue tracker.
15:13:53 <Scott_Bauer> David: The wiki is now correct
15:14:33 <Scott_Bauer> ... The minutes from June 8 are accepted
15:14:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... Richard has claimed victory on action-59
15:15:12 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Documents
15:15:32 <Scott_Bauer> ... Peter had action-69
15:15:35 <pfps> yes, my action is done!
15:15:51 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:16:19 <Scott_Bauer> ... passing by Dan, Sandro
15:16:49 <davidwood> Scribes page proposes the summer telecon schedule: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes
15:17:22 <pfps> fine by m
15:17:25 <pfps> s/m/me/
15:17:31 <Scott_Bauer> ... Any objections to the summer telecon schedule as shown
15:17:52 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:18:02 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (13%), yvesr (82%)
15:18:07 <MacTed> Zakim, mute yvesr
15:18:07 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted
15:18:11 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me
15:18:11 <Zakim> yvesr was already muted, yvesr
15:18:43 <davidwood> RESOLVED: to accept the summer telecon schedule.
15:18:44 <Scott_Bauer> ... resolved to accept the schedule as written
15:19:23 <Scott_Bauer> ... Action 56 from Antoine. Guus also not here.
15:19:47 <AZ> Scott, it's not for Antoine, it's Pierre-Antoine's action
15:19:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... Closing the action item for Guus
15:20:35 <Scott_Bauer> ... Pierre-Antoine for action 56 (correction to the above)
15:20:36 <AndyS> ping ericP (Q from chair)
15:20:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... leaving turtle document action open.
15:20:58 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile
15:20:58 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
15:21:00 <Zakim> +EricP
15:21:03 <davidwood> SPARQL/RDF WG Meeting regarding graph terminology:
15:21:03 <davidwood> Poll at http://www.doodle.com/iny935vc6n67vxpv
15:21:33 <Scott_Bauer> ... action item to schedule graph terminology discussion a poll is posted.
15:21:46 <davidwood> Revisit RDF Postponed Issues
15:21:46 <Scott_Bauer> ... brings us back to postponed issues
15:21:55 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: Postponed issues
15:22:04 <AZ> +1 to close it
15:22:04 <AndyS> Currently, 22/June and 6/July most "yes"s -- 15:00 (UTC+01)
15:22:20 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/59
15:22:20 <davidwood> See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0063.html where Peter proposes to close as "opened in error".
15:22:30 <pfps> +1 to close 59
15:22:38 <Scott_Bauer> david: issue 59 opened in error and proposal is to closse as suggested by Peter
15:22:39 <ivan> +1
15:22:42 <davidwood> +1 to close
15:22:44 <cygri> +1 to close ISSUE-59
15:22:46 <zwu2> +1 close
15:22:50 <mbrunati> +1 to close
15:22:55 <cmatheus> +1 close
15:22:58 <yvesr> +1
15:23:01 <pfps> OK
15:23:52 <Scott_Bauer> RESOLVED: Issue-59 was CLOSED because it was opened in error by the last RDF WG. See:
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/59
15:23:52 <Scott_Bauer> ... issue-62 in relation to the turtle doc Guus to discuss with Eric.
15:23:57 <gavin> I did talk to eric last week!
15:24:01 <davidwood> ISSUE-62: Revisit "The test cases manifest format has a semantic error"
15:24:01 <trackbot> ISSUE-62 Revisit "The test cases manifest format has a semantic error" notes added
15:24:43 <Scott_Bauer> ... Richard proposed continuing issue-62 proposed to be moved from raised to open
15:24:45 <davidwood> Propose to OPEN ISSUE-62 for later discussions
15:25:02 <cygri> (I think it was danbri who proposed to continue this .... but i agree)
15:25:36 <Scott_Bauer> ... any objections to opening 62, hearing none it is open
15:25:36 <Scott_Bauer> RESOLVED: Issue-62 was OPENED because we need to consider it properly. See:
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/62
15:25:48 <Scott_Bauer> ... Moves us to issue-12
15:25:51 <davidwood> ISSUE-12: Reconcile various forms of string literals
15:25:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-12 Reconcile various forms of string literals (time permitting) notes added
15:26:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... Guus thought we were close to consensus.
15:26:10 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/12
15:26:11 <davidwood> Are we reaching consensus: see thread starting with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0010.html
15:26:11 <davidwood> No :) See William's proposal and resulting thread at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0069.html
15:26:23 <Scott_Bauer> ... William made a proposal and I think we are not close.
15:26:23 <AndyS> ww sent regrets
15:26:39 <cygri> q+
15:26:41 <JeremyCarroll> q+
15:26:47 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:26:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... looking back on thread a contrary test case was stated.
15:27:07 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
15:28:14 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: May need to take this off line. The first working group put the lang treatments in late in the day.
15:28:29 <Scott_Bauer> ... late change to the desing of model and syntax.
15:28:53 <Souri> s/desing/design/
15:28:57 <Scott_Bauer> ... 2004 working group felt they weren't able to change the design and the intent of the rdf-wg wasn't clear.
15:29:24 <Zakim> -yvesr
15:29:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... the question is should we fix the design or live with it.
15:30:31 <Scott_Bauer> David: Owl wg expressed a concern in changing datatypes
15:31:01 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: Advantages of the current design is that it works well with DL
15:31:21 <AndyS> Was there a specific example of what possible change messes OWL up?
15:31:38 <Scott_Bauer> ... current design more targeted at more niave user
15:32:24 <Scott_Bauer> David: We already have plain strings. Don't really buy the arguments we are breaking rdf
15:32:53 <davidwood> AndyS, IanH expressed concern over any change to datatypes because that would require changes in OWL.
15:33:49 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: Language tags as datatypes have significant opposition.
15:34:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... other proposal with not too much opposition to abandon the untagged strings and leave the tag literals as they are now.
15:35:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... leaving plain literals as syntatic sugar
15:35:39 <Scott_Bauer> ... what problems would we still work out. What does this mean for OWL. Peter raised some concerns
15:35:58 <Scott_Bauer> ... some questions about how to deal with this in the syntaxs
15:36:09 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to address OWL concerns
15:36:36 <Scott_Bauer> ... curious to hear if this would raise concerns in OWL and Sparql
15:36:58 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
15:36:58 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to address OWL concerns
15:37:56 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: one of the constraints changes may break OWL. They mean by OWL is OWL DL. Mapping from triples into some other language.
15:38:04 <pfps> q+
15:38:07 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:38:07 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
15:38:29 <davidwood> ack pfps
15:38:30 <AndyS> SPARQL -- it's only result of DATATYPE("foo"@en) --> in detail, if class, not datatype, still err but unexpected? SPARQL could just fib a bit and return rdf:LTS.
15:38:32 <Scott_Bauer> ... cause a greater divergence between OWL and RDF.
15:39:24 <Scott_Bauer> Peter: Any change to RDF (substantive) would be changes to OWL RL systems
15:40:08 <Scott_Bauer> Alex: Some details might change in mapping layer, but mapping is transparent for us from rules to sparql queries.
15:40:23 <pfps> zakim, mute me
15:40:23 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
15:40:34 <cygri> q+
15:40:45 <Scott_Bauer> David: Lacking some of the people who could support Richard's proposal are not here.
15:41:04 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:41:06 <zwu2> I have to leave early to attend a customer meeting
15:41:08 <Scott_Bauer> ... Ian is invited to express OWL concerns in the future
15:41:12 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:41:12 <zwu2> bye
15:41:20 <Zakim> - +1.408.642.aaee
15:41:48 <Zakim> +??P19
15:41:54 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P23 is me
15:41:54 <Zakim> sorry, yvesr, I do not recognize a party named '??P23'
15:42:00 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: How does this related to sparql. Two places where its affected. Returning a lang type string currently causes an error.
15:42:13 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P33 is me
15:42:13 <Zakim> I already had ??P33 as mischat, yvesr
15:42:14 <pfps> of course, it is not just OWL RL systems that have to change, but also OWL DL systems - my view is that most OWL DL implementers would not care too much, as long as the changes can be fit into OWL DL, changes to the OWL documents might be more problematic
15:42:18 <AndyS> q+
15:43:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... serializtion of sparql results xsd: string and plain literal are the same in the design with of those is supposed to be produced. How should code be written.
15:43:40 <davidwood> ack AndyS
15:44:04 <davidwood> pfps, Alex (Revelytix) is an OWL RL implementor.
15:44:11 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: to the second point. Policy should be consistant between rdf and sparql results.
15:45:44 <Scott_Bauer> Lee: One place to serialized it and do so in a simple form. If rdf-wg goes in this direction charter implications may be affected.
15:45:54 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: no charter implications
15:46:12 <AlexHall> We are a RIF implementor. Presumably changes to OWL RL would be reflected as changes to the rules as expressed in the profiles doc. We can handle those changes quite easily.
15:46:21 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: The one without the datatype markings should imply the other form is still valid.
15:46:28 <LeeF> ivan, thanks, did not realize that XML results document was already in our charter, so that's something, at least
15:46:31 <davidwood> AlexHall, Thanks
15:46:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... the consumer has to be prepared to deal with eithe form.
15:47:32 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:47:36 <davidwood> q?
15:47:38 <Scott_Bauer> David: Not sure where to take this discussion.
15:48:14 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: have one proposal to point to. Need a straw man proposal.
15:48:23 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to mention real disagreement and/or semantics of SHOULD
15:48:48 <Scott_Bauer> David: Asks Richard to prepare the proposal
15:48:50 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
15:48:50 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention real disagreement and/or semantics of SHOULD
15:48:56 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: I can do that
15:49:16 <davidwood> Thanks to Richard
15:49:27 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to create up-to-date wiki page on ISSUE-12 proposal incl. arguments from the mailing list
15:49:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Create up-to-date wiki page on ISSUE-12 proposal incl. arguments from the mailing list [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-06-22].
15:49:28 <ivan> q+
15:49:32 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: For some reason literal design remains a very contentious issue
15:50:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... It takes up a lot of time for the working group
15:50:40 <Scott_Bauer> ... we will not make everyone happy
15:50:57 <Scott_Bauer> David: There are too many ways to express literals
15:51:53 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:51:53 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
15:52:06 <ericP> i read that as a proposal to discuss the type faces used to represent the number 1 in RDF serializations
15:52:49 <Scott_Bauer> Peter: OWL and RIF spent a lot of time hashing over the addition to literals. If a larger change is made it's a big change to solve a tiny thing.
15:52:53 <ericP> (ref to jjc's concearn that literals are too difficult 'cause they matter to too many folks)
15:53:11 <Scott_Bauer> ... strings with lang tags are not very comprehensive.
15:53:39 <Souri> I'll be happy if the only change we make is say that "abc" = "abc"^^xsd:string (and SPARQL query result could contain a string literal in either form and still be conformant)
15:53:40 <gavin> XML literals for language, oh god... No, no it isn't.
15:54:04 <Scott_Bauer> ... deprecation of lang type literals would make me happy
15:54:14 <LeeF> I'd be happy if Souri's happy
15:54:29 <Scott_Bauer> David: Key argument is we have lang type literals and rdf literals
15:55:02 <davidwood> The key argument is that we have plain literals, rdf:plainLiteral, and xsd:string literals.
15:55:05 <Scott_Bauer> Peter: Any OWL tool will handle any one of these and do the right thing
15:55:31 <gavin> I don't think anyone was
15:55:46 <Scott_Bauer> David: Who's objecting to collapsing the definitions
15:55:59 <LeeF> +10000 to leaving language tags aside :-)
15:56:08 <Scott_Bauer> Gavin: How to do it is the contentious issue
15:56:27 <Scott_Bauer> David: Would someone be willing to write up the propsal
15:56:31 <Scott_Bauer> Richard:
15:56:41 <Scott_Bauer> ... We have that already
15:57:04 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
15:58:25 <Scott_Bauer> David: Issue of contention was around sparql.
15:58:39 <AndyS> err - datatype("foo") is already xsd:string
15:59:07 <cygri> AndyS, but currently it needs an exception in the spec to make it so. that exception could go away
15:59:09 <yvesr> AndyS, so it's fine?
15:59:48 <AlexHall> I thought the SPARQL issue was around results serialization, not datatype("foo")
15:59:49 <AndyS> Yes - it's fine. The output issue is same-as RDF and not covered.
15:59:55 <Scott_Bauer> David: Requestinng that Lee have a look at the page and provide comments re: sparql
16:00:14 <AndyS> AlexHall, yes - we are only talking simple literals - no langs
16:00:22 <davidwood> q?
16:00:27 <AndyS> AlexHall, yes - we are only talking simple literals - no langs covered in this discussion
16:00:29 <Souri> I am worried about "One of the two forms should be forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1"
16:00:41 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to give unrequested advice to chairs
16:00:45 <pchampin> what would be called a "plain literal" then, anyway?
16:01:04 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:01:05 <Scott_Bauer> Lee: Spec has the data issue as an exception. Main concern term that sparql uses for simple literals no longer exist it has a more far reaching effect. Will take a look at it and take it to the sparql working group.
16:01:05 <AndyS> Souri, +1 -- and the answer should be use "foo" form.
16:01:12 <ericP> i think that removing "plain literal" mostly involves removing rows from the operator mapping and conditions for the function definitions
16:01:18 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to take http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain to SPARQL WG to gauge the impact on SPARQL process and schedule
16:01:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Take http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain to SPARQL WG to gauge the impact on SPARQL process and schedule [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-06-22].
16:01:28 <ericP> (having drafted most of the plain literal text)
16:01:48 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: procedural issue. The problem of strings was in the charter as a time permits issue.
16:02:00 <cygri> q+
16:02:12 <pfps> zakim, mute me
16:02:15 <Scott_Bauer> ... it would be ok if the working group decided to postpone the issue
16:02:18 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
16:02:27 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
16:02:27 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give unrequested advice to chairs
16:03:12 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: If the discussion goes on and on, a proposal vote should be taken
16:03:28 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:04:09 <ivan> q+
16:04:31 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: Yes it's a time permitting issue. We understand what's not possible. I would rather see the straw poll first.
16:04:45 <AndyS> SPARQL issue -- simple literal used as return type and arg in various functions - obvious changes though : would fix at least one current bug :-)
16:04:57 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:05:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... I think we are close to finding something
16:05:46 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: Issue has taken up a lot of energy. Named Graphs is something we must do.
16:06:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... We should not just close it but set a deadline
16:06:23 <davidwood> Straw poll: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
16:06:30 <Scott_Bauer> David: I want a straw poll right now.
16:07:58 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: Just to point out datatype is already xsd:string. If you ask for a datatype it returns string
16:08:21 <pchampin> q+ to ask about the term "plain literal"
16:08:36 <pchampin> ack me
16:08:52 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask about the term "plain literal"
16:08:59 <pfps> ls
16:09:10 <Souri> q+ to ask about the fourth item in the Issues: "SPARQL Results XML/JSON are hampered by the variability introduced by syntactic sugar. One of the two forms should be forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1."
16:09:29 <pfps> zakim, mute me
16:09:34 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:09:35 <davidwood> ack Souri
16:09:38 <pchampin> ok
16:09:41 <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps
16:09:47 <Zakim> Souri, you wanted to ask about the fourth item in the Issues: "SPARQL Results XML/JSON are hampered by the variability introduced by syntactic sugar. One of the two forms should be
16:09:52 <Zakim> ... forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1."
16:10:27 <Scott_Bauer> Souri: variability. Would we require sparql one of the two possible? If we are required to return xsd:string
16:10:37 <Scott_Bauer> ... That is a problem
16:10:43 <LeeF> I imagine it's up to the SPARQL WG how to handle that in the XML format?
16:10:55 <gavin> +1 LeeF, someone elses issue
16:11:04 <Scott_Bauer> David: if you return quote: foo as a literal you should know that is an xsd:string
16:11:13 <Scott_Bauer> Souri: thats fine
16:11:21 <davidwood> q?
16:11:49 <cygri> q+
16:12:04 <Scott_Bauer> Pierre: A suggestion. Maybe we can keep the plain literal which are semantically an xsd:string
16:12:27 <LeeF> Pierre++
16:12:35 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:12:39 <Scott_Bauer> David: that makes a lot of sense to me
16:12:50 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: I agree with this absolutely
16:13:12 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:13:17 <LeeF> If RDF can do this by adjusting definitions of the existing terms that SPARQL Query leans on, that would be _great_
16:13:37 <Scott_Bauer> David: lets take a quick straw poll
16:13:46 <pfps> like
16:13:48 <AndyS> +1 and preferred output form (SHOULD -- MUST is hard due to compatibility) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF and in SPARQL results (proposal needs updating to cover this case - not leave open)
16:13:52 <davidwood> +1 to our current understanding of the proposal
16:14:00 <pchampin> +1
16:14:02 <AlexHall> +1
16:14:03 <davidwood> +1 to AndyS
16:14:07 <LeeF> +1 with Cambridge Semantics hat on, reserving judgment with SPARQL WG chair hat on
16:14:11 <Souri> +1 to AndyS
16:14:13 <MacTed> +1
16:14:13 <mbrunati> +1
16:14:18 <Guus> +1
16:14:19 <cmatheus> +1
16:14:20 <yvesr> +1
16:14:23 <gavin> +1
16:14:28 <AZ> +1
16:14:45 <JeremyCarroll> +1
16:14:45 <ivan> 1
16:15:15 <gavin> Who cares about language tags? ;)
16:15:17 <ericP> +1
16:15:32 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to give more unsolicited advice
16:15:47 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
16:15:47 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give more unsolicited advice
16:15:55 <Scott_Bauer> David: We seem to agree on three quarter of this proposal
16:16:00 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
16:16:05 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:16:16 <Scott_Bauer> David: Let's take a formal vote since there are no objectsions
16:16:37 <Souri> s/objectsions/objections/
16:16:53 <Scott_Bauer> PROPOSAL: Accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
16:17:11 <LeeF> Pat has spent a lot of time restating cygri's proposals, so I imagine he'd be happy with this
16:17:12 <JeremyCarroll> if pat wishes to object he can in the e-mail
16:17:23 <JeremyCarroll> and then we deal with that next week
16:17:31 <JeremyCarroll> same for any wg member
16:17:41 <davidwood> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF and in SPARQL results
16:18:00 <cygri> +1
16:18:00 <Souri> +1
16:18:03 <davidwood> +1
16:18:06 <AlexHall> +1
16:18:17 <pfps> +1
16:18:31 <Guus> +1
16:18:41 <Scott_Bauer> PROPOSED: Accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
16:18:51 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:19:07 <pfps> Where does the proposal talk about SPARQL? All the SPARQL stuff is in the issues, right?
16:19:22 <cygri> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same
16:19:29 <gavin> and recomend that any concrete syntax SHOULD use "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string
16:19:34 <LeeF> pfps, just in the proposal that davidwood just wrote on IRC
16:19:41 <AndyS> pfps - david's proposal says "SPARQL results"
16:19:51 <pfps> Of course, any change to RDF may impact SPARQL, and this does, but that is the main reason why we are doing this now, as opposed to later.
16:20:04 <davidwood> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same
16:20:06 <cygri> +1
16:20:09 <Souri> +1
16:20:10 <davidwood> +1
16:20:10 <cmatheus> +1
16:20:11 <mbrunati> +1
16:20:14 <LeeF> +1
16:20:21 <JeremyCarroll> +1
16:20:22 <pfps> ooh, right - I was looking at the wiki page
16:20:23 <AlexHall> +1
16:20:23 <AndyS> +1
16:20:26 <pfps> +1
16:20:27 <gavin> +1
16:20:28 <AndyS> (give or take the unicode char 001C)
16:20:29 <Scott_Bauer> David: Let's vote again on Richard's phrasing
16:20:35 <ivan> +1
16:20:41 <davidwood> RESOLVED: to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same
16:20:47 <pchampin> +1
16:21:47 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:22:00 <Zakim> -mischat
16:22:01 <AndyS> q+
16:22:12 <pfps> OWL already strongly suggests using "foo" in concrete syntaxes
16:22:36 <Scott_Bauer> David: Lee will get back to me in relation to sparql
16:22:48 <davidwood> ack AndyS
16:23:00 <AndyS> ack me
16:23:02 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: Compatability does matter
16:23:36 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: How do we make sure popular implementers are informed as soon as possible.
16:23:40 <gavin> rdflib already does this... sort of... via buggy string implementations ;)
16:23:44 <cygri> s/Richard/ivan/
16:23:48 <Scott_Bauer> David: I suggest a blog post.
16:24:47 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, who is speaking
16:24:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is speaking', Scott_Bauer
16:24:58 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, who is talking
16:24:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', Scott_Bauer
16:25:23 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
16:25:27 <Scott_Bauer> David: Officially adjourned
16:25:31 <mbrunati> bye
16:25:31 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:25:32 <AZ> bye
16:25:33 <Zakim> -cmatheus
16:25:33 <Zakim> -Souri
16:25:34 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:25:34 <Zakim> -cygri
16:25:35 <Zakim> -mbrunati
16:25:35 <Zakim> -[Sophia]
16:25:37 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
16:25:37 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:25:38 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:25:40 <Zakim> -davidwood
16:25:42 <Zakim> -gavin
16:25:44 <Zakim> -AZ
16:25:48 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:25:56 <Zakim> -pfps
16:26:06 <Zakim> -EricP
16:31:38 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000476
</nowiki></pre>

Chatlog 2011-06-15

Sbauer2 — Wed, 15 Jun 2011 16:35:40 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
14:26:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:26:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-rdf-wg-irc
14:26:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:26:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:26:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:26:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
14:26:59 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:27:00 <trackbot> Date: 15 June 2011
14:29:39 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:31:43 <AndyS> AndyS has left #rdf-wg
14:31:48 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:43:18 <gavin> gavin has joined #rdf-wg
14:54:44 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
14:55:00 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
14:55:42 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:55:49 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aaaa
14:56:43 <Zakim> +Bernadette
14:57:01 <davidwood> Zakim, Bernadette is davidwood
14:57:01 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
14:57:13 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
14:57:20 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aabb
14:57:23 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:57:23 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:57:25 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:57:25 <Zakim> +Tony
14:57:39 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me
14:57:39 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
14:57:41 <Olivier> Olivier has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:46 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:49 <Zakim> +??P13
14:58:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
14:58:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, +1.760.705.aabb, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, ??P13
14:58:51 <Zakim> +LeeF
14:59:01 <AZ> Zakim, Bernadette is me
14:59:02 <Zakim> sorry, AZ, I do not recognize a party named 'Bernadette'
14:59:02 <mbrunati> zakim ??P13 is me
14:59:25 <gavin> If you were Bernadatte now your davidwood ;)
14:59:26 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P13 is me
14:59:31 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
14:59:37 <Zakim> +??P6
14:59:37 <LeeF> AZ, bernadette was davidwood, not you
14:59:54 <davidwood> AZ: Bernadette dialed from our office number earlier for the SWCG call, so I'm sure it is me now.
14:59:57 <Zakim> +[Sophia]
15:00:09 <cmatheus> zakim, ??P6 is me
15:00:09 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it
15:00:18 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:25 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:08 <AZ> Zakim, +1.760.705.aabb is me
15:01:08 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:01:19 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aacc
15:01:26 <AlexHall> zakim, aacc is me
15:01:26 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:01:31 <Zakim> + +1.303.474.aadd
15:01:48 <Zakim> +??P18
15:01:52 <AndyS> zakim, ??P18 is me
15:01:52 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:02:23 <moustaki> moustaki has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:57 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:03:00 <Zakim> +Souri
15:03:06 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:03:06 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:03:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:03:08 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:03:08 <pfps> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, +1.303.474.aadd, AndyS, MacTed, Souri
15:03:21 <Zakim> +??P28
15:03:30 <Zakim> +??P33
15:03:39 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:40 <pfps> Zakim, mute me
15:03:42 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:03:44 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P28 is yvesr
15:03:45 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:04:06 <mischat> zakim, ??�P33 is me
15:04:06 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '??�P33'
15:04:38 <mischat> zakim, +??P33 is mischat
15:04:38 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'
15:04:46 <mischat> zakim, +??P33 is me
15:04:46 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'
15:04:47 <Scott_Bauer> rrsagent, make records public
15:04:57 <davidwood> pfps: 61#
15:04:58 <ericP> ericP has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:13 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:20 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:05:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, +1.303.474.aadd (muted), AndyS, MacTed (muted), Souri, yvesr, ??P33
15:05:23 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:05:24 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), zwu2
15:05:31 <MacTed> Zakim, P33 is mischat
15:05:31 <Zakim> sorry, MacTed, I do not recognize a party named 'P33'
15:05:33 <Scott_Bauer> Scribe: Scott_Bauer
15:05:34 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:05:34 <pfps> Zakim, MacTed is me
15:05:34 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:05:45 <davidwood> scribenick: Scott_Bauer
15:05:58 <Zakim> +[Sophia.a]
15:05:59 <Zakim> + +1.408.642.aaee
15:06:06 <MacTed> Zakim, ??P33 is mischat
15:06:06 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:06:09 <Zakim> + +1.415.586.aaff
15:06:15 <FabGandon> Zakim, Sophia.a is me
15:06:15 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
15:06:15 <MacTed> Zakim, pfps is OpenLink_Software
15:06:17 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
15:06:23 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:06:23 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:06:36 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 June telecon:
15:06:36 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-08
15:06:38 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: June 8 telcon minutes
15:06:42 <MacTed> pfps - where are you calling from? might +1.303.474.aadd be you?
15:06:59 <Scott_Bauer> david: Made changes but they were not promulgated
15:07:26 <Scott_Bauer> ... edited to capture resolution on issue-60
15:07:45 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:55 <Scott_Bauer> ... closed issue-60 in the tracker, but it doesn't show in the minutes
15:08:21 <pfps> zakim, aadd is me
15:08:21 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:08:25 <Scott_Bauer> ... will check with Sandro
15:08:26 <gavin> Fixed
15:08:28 <pfps> q-
15:08:30 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:08:38 <gavin> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-08 is now correct
15:08:39 <MacTed> ack aadd
15:08:44 <MacTed> ack +1.303.474.aadd
15:08:52 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:08:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, pfps (muted), AndyS, MacTed (muted), Souri, yvesr, mischat, FabGandon,
15:08:56 <Zakim> ... +1.408.642.aaee, +1.415.586.aaff
15:09:15 <Scott_Bauer> Gavin: its all fixed
15:09:34 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:38 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:09:50 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
15:09:50 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:10:06 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: problems with issue-58
15:10:20 <Scott_Bauer> David: closed presumed to be archaic
15:10:37 <AlexHall> I see the resolution in the minutes
15:11:04 <gavin> I'll fix it ;)(
15:11:20 <LeeF> thanks, gavin
15:12:03 <Scott_Bauer> David: I will fix it
15:12:57 <pfps> Zakim, mute me
15:12:58 <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps
15:13:17 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:13:26 <AndyS> Absent any info, presume as per proposal (close, do nothing), but it does not actually say that in the issue tracker.
15:13:53 <Scott_Bauer> David: The wiki is now correct
15:14:33 <Scott_Bauer> ... The minutes from June 8 are accepted
15:14:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... Richard has claimed victory on action-59
15:15:12 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Documents
15:15:32 <Scott_Bauer> ... Peter had action-69
15:15:35 <pfps> yes, my action is done!
15:15:51 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:16:19 <Scott_Bauer> ... passing by Dan, Sandro
15:16:49 <davidwood> Scribes page proposes the summer telecon schedule: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes
15:17:22 <pfps> fine by m
15:17:25 <pfps> s/m/me/
15:17:31 <Scott_Bauer> ... Any objections to the summer telecon schedule as shown
15:17:52 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:18:02 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (13%), yvesr (82%)
15:18:07 <MacTed> Zakim, mute yvesr
15:18:07 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted
15:18:11 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me
15:18:11 <Zakim> yvesr was already muted, yvesr
15:18:43 <davidwood> RESOLVED: to accept the summer telecon schedule.
15:18:44 <Scott_Bauer> ... resolved to accept the schedule as written
15:19:23 <Scott_Bauer> ... Action 56 from Antoine. Guus also not here.
15:19:47 <AZ> Scott, it's not for Antoine, it's Pierre-Antoine's action
15:19:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... Closing the action item for Guus
15:20:35 <Scott_Bauer> ... Pierre-Antoine for action 56 (correction to the above)
15:20:36 <AndyS> ping ericP (Q from chair)
15:20:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... leaving turtle document action open.
15:20:58 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile
15:20:58 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
15:21:00 <Zakim> +EricP
15:21:03 <davidwood> SPARQL/RDF WG Meeting regarding graph terminology:
15:21:03 <davidwood> ▪ Poll at http://www.doodle.com/iny935vc6n67vxpv
15:21:33 <Scott_Bauer> ... action item to schedule graph terminology discussion a poll is posted.
15:21:46 <davidwood> Revisit RDF Postponed Issues
15:21:46 <Scott_Bauer> ... brings us back to postponed issues
15:21:55 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: Postponed issues
15:22:04 <AZ> +1 to close it
15:22:04 <AndyS> Currently, 22/June and 6/July most "yes"s -- 15:00 (UTC+01)
15:22:20 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/59
15:22:20 <davidwood> ▪ See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0063.html where Peter proposes to close as "opened in error".
15:22:30 <pfps> +1 to close 59
15:22:38 <Scott_Bauer> david: issue 59 opened in error and proposal is to closse as suggested by Peter
15:22:39 <ivan> +1
15:22:42 <davidwood> +1 to close
15:22:44 <cygri> +1 to close ISSUE-59
15:22:46 <zwu2> +1 close
15:22:50 <mbrunati> +1 to close
15:22:55 <cmatheus> +1 close
15:22:58 <yvesr> +1
15:23:01 <pfps> OK
15:23:52 <Scott_Bauer> ... issue-62 in relation to the turtle doc Guus to discuss with Eric.
15:23:57 <gavin> I did talk to eric last week!
15:24:01 <davidwood> ISSUE-62: Revisit "The test cases manifest format has a semantic error"
15:24:01 <trackbot> ISSUE-62 Revisit "The test cases manifest format has a semantic error" notes added
15:24:43 <Scott_Bauer> ... Richard proposed continuing issue-62 proposed to be moved from raised to open
15:24:45 <davidwood> Propose to OPEN ISSUE-62 for later discussions
15:25:02 <cygri> (I think it was danbri who proposed to continue this .... but i agree)
15:25:36 <Scott_Bauer> ... any objections to opening 62, hearing none it is open
15:25:48 <Scott_Bauer> ... Moves us to issue-12
15:25:51 <davidwood> ISSUE-12: Reconcile various forms of string literals
15:25:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-12 Reconcile various forms of string literals (time permitting) notes added
15:26:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... Guus thought we were close to consensus.
15:26:10 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/12
15:26:11 <davidwood> Are we reaching consensus: see thread starting with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0010.html
15:26:11 <davidwood> No :) See William's proposal and resulting thread at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0069.html
15:26:23 <Scott_Bauer> ... William made a proposal and I think we are not close.
15:26:23 <AndyS> ww sent regrets
15:26:39 <cygri> q+
15:26:41 <JeremyCarroll> q+
15:26:47 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:26:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... looking back on thread a contrary test case was stated.
15:27:07 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
15:28:14 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: May need to take this off line. The first working group put the lang treatments in late in the day.
15:28:29 <Scott_Bauer> ... late change to the desing of model and syntax.
15:28:53 <Souri> s/desing/design/
15:28:57 <Scott_Bauer> ... 2004 working group felt they weren't able to change the design and the intent of the rdf-wg wasn't clear.
15:29:24 <Zakim> -yvesr
15:29:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... the question is should we fix the design or live with it.
15:30:31 <Scott_Bauer> David: Owl wg expressed a concern in changing datatypes
15:31:01 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: Advantages of the current design is that it works well with DL
15:31:21 <AndyS> Was there a specific example of what possible change messes OWL up?
15:31:38 <Scott_Bauer> ... current design more targeted at more niave user
15:32:24 <Scott_Bauer> David: We already have plain strings. Don't really buy the arguments we are breaking rdf
15:32:53 <davidwood> AndyS: IanH expressed concern over any change to datatypes because that would require changes in OWL.
15:33:49 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: Language tags as datatypes have significant opposition.
15:34:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... other proposal with not too much opposition to abandon the untagged strings and leave the tag literals as they are now.
15:35:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... leaving plain literals as syntatic sugar
15:35:39 <Scott_Bauer> ... what problems would we still work out. What does this mean for OWL. Peter raised some concerns
15:35:58 <Scott_Bauer> ... some questions about how to deal with this in the syntaxs
15:36:09 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to address OWL concerns
15:36:36 <Scott_Bauer> ... curious to hear if this would raise concerns in OWL and Sparql
15:36:58 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
15:36:58 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to address OWL concerns
15:37:56 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: one of the constraints changes may break OWL. They mean by OWL is OWL DL. Mapping from triples into some other language.
15:38:04 <pfps> q+
15:38:07 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:38:07 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
15:38:29 <davidwood> ack pfps
15:38:30 <AndyS> SPARQL -- it's only result of DATATYPE("foo"@en) --> in detail, if class, not datatype, still err but unexpected? SPARQL could just fib a bit and return rdf:LTS.
15:38:32 <Scott_Bauer> ... cause a greater divergence between OWL and RDF.
15:39:24 <Scott_Bauer> Peter: Any change to RDF (substantive) would be changes to OWL RL systems
15:40:08 <Scott_Bauer> Alex: Some details might change in mapping layer, but mapping is transparent for us from rules to sparql queries.
15:40:23 <pfps> zakim, mute me
15:40:23 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
15:40:34 <cygri> q+
15:40:45 <Scott_Bauer> David: Lacking some of the people who could support Richard's proposal are not here.
15:41:04 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:41:06 <zwu2> I have to leave early to attend a customer meeting
15:41:08 <Scott_Bauer> ... Ian is invited to express OWL concerns in the future
15:41:12 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:41:12 <zwu2> bye
15:41:20 <Zakim> - +1.408.642.aaee
15:41:48 <Zakim> +??P19
15:41:54 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P23 is me
15:41:54 <Zakim> sorry, yvesr, I do not recognize a party named '??P23'
15:42:00 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: How does this related to sparql. Two places where its affected. Returning a lang type string currently causes an error.
15:42:13 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P33 is me
15:42:13 <Zakim> I already had ??P33 as mischat, yvesr
15:42:14 <pfps> of course, it is not just OWL RL systems that have to change, but also OWL DL systems - my view is that most OWL DL implementers would not care too much, as long as the changes can be fit into OWL DL, changes to the OWL documents might be more problematic
15:42:18 <AndyS> q+
15:43:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... serializtion of sparql results xsd: string and plain literal are the same in the design with of those is supposed to be produced. How should code be written.
15:43:40 <davidwood> ack AndyS
15:44:04 <davidwood> pfps: Alex (Revelytix) is an OWL RL implementor.
15:44:11 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: to the second point. Policy should be consistant between rdf and sparql results.
15:45:44 <Scott_Bauer> Lee: One place to serialized it and do so in a simple form. If rdf-wg goes in this direction charter implications may be affected.
15:45:54 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: no charter implications
15:46:12 <AlexHall> We are a RIF implementor. Presumably changes to OWL RL would be reflected as changes to the rules as expressed in the profiles doc. We can handle those changes quite easily.
15:46:21 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: The one without the datatype markings should imply the other form is still valid.
15:46:28 <LeeF> ivan, thanks, did not realize that XML results document was already in our charter, so that's something, at least
15:46:31 <davidwood> AlexHall: Thanks
15:46:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... the consumer has to be prepared to deal with eithe form.
15:47:32 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:47:36 <davidwood> q?
15:47:38 <Scott_Bauer> David: Not sure where to take this discussion.
15:48:14 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: have one proposal to point to. Need a straw man proposal.
15:48:23 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to mention real disagreement and/or semantics of SHOULD
15:48:48 <Scott_Bauer> David: Asks Richard to prepare the proposal
15:48:50 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
15:48:50 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention real disagreement and/or semantics of SHOULD
15:48:56 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: I can do that
15:49:16 <davidwood> Thanks to Richard
15:49:27 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to create up-to-date wiki page on ISSUE-12 proposal incl. arguments from the mailing list
15:49:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Create up-to-date wiki page on ISSUE-12 proposal incl. arguments from the mailing list [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-06-22].
15:49:28 <ivan> q+
15:49:32 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: For some reason literal design remains a very contentious issue
15:50:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... It takes up a lot of time for the working group
15:50:40 <Scott_Bauer> ... we will not make everyone happy
15:50:57 <Scott_Bauer> David: There are too many ways to express literals
15:51:53 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:51:53 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
15:52:06 <ericP> i read that as a proposal to discuss the type faces used to represent the number 1 in RDF serializations
15:52:49 <Scott_Bauer> Peter: OWL and RIF spent a lot of time hashing over the addition to literals. If a larger change is made it's a big change to solve a tiny thing.
15:52:53 <ericP> (ref to jjc's concearn that literals are too difficult 'cause they matter to too many folks)
15:53:11 <Scott_Bauer> ... strings with lang tags are not very comprehensive.
15:53:39 <Souri> I'll be happy if the only change we make is say that "abc" = "abc"^^xsd:string (and SPARQL query result could contain a string literal in either form and still be conformant)
15:53:40 <gavin> XML literals for language, oh god... No, no it isn't.
15:54:04 <Scott_Bauer> ... deprecation of lang type literals would make me happy
15:54:14 <LeeF> I'd be happy if Souri's happy
15:54:29 <Scott_Bauer> David: Key argument is we have lang type literals and rdf literals
15:55:02 <davidwood> The key argument is that we have plain literals, rdf:plainLiteral, and xsd:string literals.
15:55:05 <Scott_Bauer> Peter: Any OWL tool will handle any one of these and do the right thing
15:55:31 <gavin> I don't think anyone was
15:55:46 <Scott_Bauer> David: Who's objecting to collapsing the definitions
15:55:59 <LeeF> +10000 to leaving language tags aside :-)
15:56:08 <Scott_Bauer> Gavin: How to do it is the contentious issue
15:56:27 <Scott_Bauer> David: Would someone be willing to write up the propsal
15:56:31 <Scott_Bauer> Richard:
15:56:41 <Scott_Bauer> ... We have that already
15:57:04 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
15:58:25 <Scott_Bauer> David: Issue of contention was around sparql.
15:58:39 <AndyS> err - datatype("foo") is already xsd:string
15:59:07 <cygri> AndyS, but currently it needs an exception in the spec to make it so. that exception could go away
15:59:09 <yvesr> AndyS, so it's fine?
15:59:48 <AlexHall> I thought the SPARQL issue was around results serialization, not datatype("foo")
15:59:49 <AndyS> Yes - it's fine. The output issue is same-as RDF and not covered.
15:59:55 <Scott_Bauer> David: Requestinng that Lee have a look at the page and provide comments re: sparql
16:00:14 <AndyS> AlexHall, yes - we are only talking simple literals - no langs
16:00:22 <davidwood> q?
16:00:27 <AndyS> AlexHall, yes - we are only talking simple literals - no langs covered in this discussion
16:00:29 <Souri> I am worried about "One of the two forms should be forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1"
16:00:41 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to give unrequested advice to chairs
16:00:45 <pchampin> what would be called a "plain literal" then, anyway?
16:01:04 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:01:05 <Scott_Bauer> Lee: Spec has the data issue as an exception. Main concern term that sparql uses for simple literals no longer exist it has a more far reaching effect. Will take a look at it and take it to the sparql working group.
16:01:05 <AndyS> Souri, +1 -- and the answer should be use "foo" form.
16:01:12 <ericP> i think that removing "plain literal" mostly involves removing rows from the operator mapping and conditions for the function definitions
16:01:18 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to take http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain to SPARQL WG to gauge the impact on SPARQL process and schedule
16:01:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Take http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain to SPARQL WG to gauge the impact on SPARQL process and schedule [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-06-22].
16:01:28 <ericP> (having drafted most of the plain literal text)
16:01:48 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: procedural issue. The problem of strings was in the charter as a time permits issue.
16:02:00 <cygri> q+
16:02:12 <pfps> zakim, mute me
16:02:15 <Scott_Bauer> ... it would be ok if the working group decided to postpone the issue
16:02:18 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
16:02:27 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
16:02:27 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give unrequested advice to chairs
16:03:12 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: If the discussion goes on and on, a proposal vote should be taken
16:03:28 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:04:09 <ivan> q+
16:04:31 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: Yes it's a time permitting issue. We understand what's not possible. I would rather see the straw poll first.
16:04:45 <AndyS> SPARQL issue -- simple literal used as return type and arg in various functions - obvious changes though : would fix at least one current bug :-)
16:04:57 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:05:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... I think we are close to finding something
16:05:46 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: Issue has taken up a lot of energy. Named Graphs is something we must do.
16:06:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... We should not just close it but set a deadline
16:06:23 <davidwood> Straw poll: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
16:06:30 <Scott_Bauer> David: I want a straw poll right now.
16:07:58 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: Just to point out datatype is already xsd:string. If you ask for a datatype it returns string
16:08:21 <pchampin> q+ to ask about the term "plain literal"
16:08:36 <pchampin> ack me
16:08:52 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask about the term "plain literal"
16:08:59 <pfps> ls
16:09:10 <Souri> q+ to ask about the fourth item in the Issues: "SPARQL Results XML/JSON are hampered by the variability introduced by syntactic sugar. One of the two forms should be forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1."
16:09:29 <pfps> zakim, mute me
16:09:34 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:09:35 <davidwood> ack Souri
16:09:38 <pchampin> ok
16:09:41 <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps
16:09:47 <Zakim> Souri, you wanted to ask about the fourth item in the Issues: "SPARQL Results XML/JSON are hampered by the variability introduced by syntactic sugar. One of the two forms should be
16:09:52 <Zakim> ... forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1."
16:10:27 <Scott_Bauer> Souri: variability. Would we require sparql one of the two possible? If we are required to return xsd:string
16:10:37 <Scott_Bauer> ... That is a problem
16:10:43 <LeeF> I imagine it's up to the SPARQL WG how to handle that in the XML format?
16:10:55 <gavin> +1 LeeF, someone elses issue
16:11:04 <Scott_Bauer> David: if you return quote: foo as a literal you should know that is an xsd:string
16:11:13 <Scott_Bauer> Souri: thats fine
16:11:21 <davidwood> q?
16:11:49 <cygri> q+
16:12:04 <Scott_Bauer> Pierre: A suggestion. Maybe we can keep the plain literal which are semantically an xsd:string
16:12:27 <LeeF> Pierre++
16:12:35 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:12:39 <Scott_Bauer> David: that makes a lot of sense to me
16:12:50 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: I agree with this absolutely
16:13:12 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:13:17 <LeeF> If RDF can do this by adjusting definitions of the existing terms that SPARQL Query leans on, that would be _great_
16:13:37 <Scott_Bauer> David: lets take a quick straw poll
16:13:46 <pfps> like
16:13:48 <AndyS> +1 and preferred output form (SHOULD -- MUST is hard due to compatibility) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF and in SPARQL results (proposal needs updating to cover this case - not leave open)
16:13:52 <davidwood> +1 to our current understanding of the proposal
16:14:00 <pchampin> +1
16:14:02 <AlexHall> +1
16:14:03 <davidwood> +1 to AndyS
16:14:07 <LeeF> +1 with Cambridge Semantics hat on, reserving judgment with SPARQL WG chair hat on
16:14:11 <Souri> +1 to AndyS
16:14:13 <MacTed> +1
16:14:13 <mbrunati> +1
16:14:18 <Guus> +1
16:14:19 <cmatheus> +1
16:14:20 <yvesr> +1
16:14:23 <gavin> +1
16:14:28 <AZ> +1
16:14:45 <JeremyCarroll> +1
16:14:45 <ivan> 1
16:15:15 <gavin> Who cares about language tags? ;)
16:15:17 <ericP> +1
16:15:32 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to give more unsolicited advice
16:15:47 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
16:15:47 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give more unsolicited advice
16:15:55 <Scott_Bauer> David: We seem to agree on three quarter of this proposal
16:16:00 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
16:16:05 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:16:16 <Scott_Bauer> David: Let's take a formal vote since there are no objectsions
16:16:37 <Souri> s/objectsions/objections/
16:16:53 <Scott_Bauer> PROPOSAL: Accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
16:17:11 <LeeF> Pat has spent a lot of time restating cygri's proposals, so I imagine he'd be happy with this
16:17:12 <JeremyCarroll> if pat wishes to object he can in the e-mail
16:17:23 <JeremyCarroll> and then we deal with that next week
16:17:31 <JeremyCarroll> same for any wg member
16:17:41 <davidwood> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF and in SPARQL results
16:18:00 <cygri> +1
16:18:00 <Souri> +1
16:18:03 <davidwood> +1
16:18:06 <AlexHall> +1
16:18:17 <pfps> +1
16:18:31 <Guus> +1
16:18:41 <Scott_Bauer> PROPOSED: Accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain
16:18:51 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:19:07 <pfps> Where does the proposal talk about SPARQL? All the SPARQL stuff is in the issues, right?
16:19:22 <cygri> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"�^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same
16:19:29 <gavin> and recomend that any concrete syntax SHOULD use "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string
16:19:34 <LeeF> pfps, just in the proposal that davidwood just wrote on IRC
16:19:41 <AndyS> pfps - david's proposal says "SPARQL results"
16:19:51 <pfps> Of course, any change to RDF may impact SPARQL, and this does, but that is the main reason why we are doing this now, as opposed to later.
16:20:04 <davidwood> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"�^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same
16:20:06 <cygri> +1
16:20:09 <Souri> +1
16:20:10 <davidwood> +1
16:20:10 <cmatheus> +1
16:20:11 <mbrunati> +1
16:20:14 <LeeF> +1
16:20:21 <JeremyCarroll> +1
16:20:22 <pfps> ooh, right - I was looking at the wiki page
16:20:23 <AlexHall> +1
16:20:23 <AndyS> +1
16:20:26 <pfps> +1
16:20:27 <gavin> +1
16:20:28 <AndyS> (give or take the unicode char 001C)
16:20:29 <Scott_Bauer> David: Let's vote again on Richard's phrasing
16:20:35 <ivan> +1
16:20:41 <davidwood> RESOLVED: to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"�^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same
16:20:47 <pchampin> +1
16:21:47 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:22:00 <Zakim> -mischat
16:22:01 <AndyS> q+
16:22:12 <pfps> OWL already strongly suggests using "foo" in concrete syntaxes
16:22:36 <Scott_Bauer> David: Lee will get back to me in relation to sparql
16:22:48 <davidwood> ack AndyS
16:23:00 <AndyS> ack me
16:23:02 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: Compatability does matter
16:23:36 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: How do we make sure popular implementers are informed as soon as possible.
16:23:40 <gavin> rdflib already does this... sort of... via buggy string implementations ;)
16:23:44 <cygri> s/Richard/ivan/
16:23:48 <Scott_Bauer> David: I suggest a blog post.
16:24:47 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, who is speaking
16:24:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is speaking', Scott_Bauer
16:24:58 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, who is talking
16:24:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', Scott_Bauer
16:25:23 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
16:25:27 <Scott_Bauer> David: Officially adjourned
16:25:31 <mbrunati> bye
16:25:31 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:25:32 <AZ> bye
16:25:33 <Zakim> -cmatheus
16:25:33 <Zakim> -Souri
16:25:34 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:25:34 <Zakim> -cygri
16:25:35 <Zakim> -mbrunati
16:25:35 <Zakim> -[Sophia]
16:25:37 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
16:25:37 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:25:38 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:25:40 <Zakim> -davidwood
16:25:42 <Zakim> -gavin
16:25:44 <Zakim> -AZ
16:25:48 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:25:56 <Zakim> -pfps
16:26:06 <Zakim> -EricP
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000475
</nowiki></pre>

F2F2

Sbauer2 — Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:48:25 GMT

Sbauer2: /* Participants */

Not yet scheduled.

See the poll at: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46168/RDFWGFTF2/

== Participants ==

; Intent to attend (you must sign up to get Internet access, food, ...)
: David Wood
: Peter F. Patel-Schneider (very likely if East, only moderately likely if West)
: Scott Bauer

; Intent to attend remotely

; Regrets

F2F1

Sbauer2 — Tue, 15 Mar 2011 13:04:09 GMT

Sbauer2:

;Date
:13-14 April 2011
;Location
: Amsterdam, The Netherlands ([http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/amsterdam.html a guide])
;Agenda
:tbd
;Venue
:[http://www.cwi.nl CWI]; See [http://www.cwi.nl/general/Address separate page] for directions, or the [http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/amsterdam.html pages on Amsterdam] done by Steven Pemberton
;Hotel Recommendations
:[[ftf-amsterdam-hotels|Hotel info]]

; Intent to attend (you must sign up to get internet access, food, ...)
: David Wood
: Ivan Herman
: Richard Cyganiak
: Matteo Brunati
: Sandro Hawke
: Steve Harris
: Guus Schreiber
: Jean-Francois Baget
: Mischa Tuffield
: Nicholas Humfrey
: Yves Raimond
: Thomas Steiner
: Dieter Fensel (trying to reschulde another meeting; will know soon)
; Intent to attend remotely
: Antoine Zimmermann
: Peter F. Patel-Schneider (maybe in person, but not yet determined)
: Axel Polleres
: Gavin Carothers (Time zones likely to be challenging)
: Lee Feigenbaum
: Scott Bauer

; Regrets
: Andy Seaborne

Chatlog 2011-03-02

Sbauer2 — Fri, 04 Mar 2011 14:12:08 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
<sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc
15:21:26 <LeeF> Hard to disagree with that
15:21:47 <LeeF> I think I will never get used to reading the "@" sigil in JSON-LD correctly, alas
15:22:05 <mischat> manu: in your trig looking examples, in the example "Graph Changes Over Time" for example, you have trailing "'s
15:22:06 <mischat> "2011-02-26T00:00:00+0000"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>
15:22:10 <mischat> "
15:22:43 <hsbauer> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:22:44 <manu> @LeeF yeah - we could change it to something else? Every time I've changed the key that establishes the subject, somebody complains about it :P
15:23:02 <hsbauer> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:23:20 <hsbauer> Meeting: RDF WG Teleconference
15:24:14 <LeeF> oh i wasn't complaining, manu, i'm just not used to it
15:24:17 <LeeF> I think it's kind of clever
15:25:28 <hsbauer> is david wood chair today?
15:25:49 <manu> LeeF, it's annoying at first, and then you get used to it. '@' was supposed to symbolize - "This object can be found at..." or "This object describes the data at..." or "This object exists at..."
15:29:12 <hsbauer> Chair: David Wood
15:29:49 <hsbauer> zakim, this will be SW_RDFWG
15:29:49 <Zakim> ok, hsbauer; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
15:33:18 <mischat> um, turtle does allow "." before "]" when writing predicateObject lists, as per rule 7 in the turtle submission thing. The correct (turtle'd version of your example) http://pastebin.com/K7D9LQ36 (obviously this is less the graph bit you would get in trig).
15:42:48 <mischat> ok may do that afterwards :)
15:46:36 <webr3> webr3 has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:38 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:51:41 <gavinc> gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:45 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
15:52:49 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:52:59 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:53:57 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:16 <PatHayes> PatHayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:32 <Zakim> +davidwood
15:54:44 <Zakim> +FabGandon
15:55:00 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:55:12 <gavinc> zakim, mute me
15:55:12 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
15:56:52 <davidwood> Meeting: RDF Working Group
15:56:57 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
15:57:28 <Zakim> +PatH
15:57:33 <manu> zakim, code?
15:57:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu
15:57:44 <Zakim> +??P9
15:57:47 <manu> zakim, I am ??P9
15:57:47 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:57:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:57:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:57:55 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:57:58 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:58:12 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:58:12 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:58:23 <davidwood> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:58:32 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:35 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:40 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
15:58:44 <Zakim> +??P10
15:58:56 <mischat> zakim, P10 is me
15:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
15:59:02 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:59:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:07 <mischat> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:59:07 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:59:10 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:59:10 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:59:22 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:25 <Zakim> +??P12
15:59:32 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:59:33 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
15:59:33 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:59:49 <Zakim> +corby
16:00:03 <PatHayes> Im not hearing the breathing.
16:00:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:07 <Zakim> +Alex_Hall
16:00:11 <webr3> zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
16:00:11 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:00:12 <Zakim> +AZ
16:00:18 <webr3> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:00:18 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
16:00:28 <AlexHall> zakim, Alex_Hall is me
16:00:28 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
16:00:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:00:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:00:52 <Zakim> ... AZ
16:00:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH, danbri, davidwood, yvesr,
16:00:57 <Zakim> ... manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:00:58 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
16:01:14 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:26 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:30 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:01:51 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:01:51 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
16:02:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:27 <Zakim> +cygri
16:02:27 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
<sandro> Topic: Admin
16:02:33 <danbri> regrets from me; at mini-NoTube F2F in Bristol (although not as I feared travelling so will follow in IRC)
16:02:51 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here
16:02:51 <Zakim> mbrunati, you need to end that query with '?'
16:03:05 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here?
16:03:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:08 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, [IPcaller], cygri
16:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see cmatheus, Guus, SteveH__, AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH,
16:03:15 <Zakim> ... danbri, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:03:20 <sandro> regrets: danbri, souri
16:03:24 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:03:24 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
16:03:26 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:03:36 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
16:03:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:40 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, mbrunati, cygri
16:03:45 <SteveH__> Zakim, what's the code?
16:03:45 <AZ> AZ is for Antoine Zimmermann
16:03:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), SteveH__
16:03:58 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:03:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:04:13 <hsbauer> regrets: danbri, yvesr, nickh, champin, tomayac
16:04:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:21 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:04:21 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
16:04:28 <davidwood> Agenda is at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-02 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:59 <pfps> minutes look fine to me
16:05:06 <AndyS> Regrets for last time: AndyS
16:05:07 <hsbauer> david: proposes to accept last weeks minutes
16:05:12 <ivan> +1
16:05:15 <FabGandon> +1
16:05:18 <AZ> +1
16:05:23 <mbrunati> +1
16:05:26 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes
16:05:41 <hsbauer> david: action item review
16:05:43 <davidwood> Action items pending review: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:05:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - items
16:05:47 <PatHayes> ignore this, testing.
16:06:04 <sandro> manu, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:06:47 <hsbauer> ... pending review alex has completed use case, scott has completed use case
16:06:51 <AZ> zakim, unmute me
16:06:51 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted
16:07:11 <hsbauer> ... peter, antoine both completed use cases
16:07:16 <ivan> q+
#16:07:35 <davidwood> ACTION-1: close
16:07:35 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format notes added
16:07:42 <sandro> close action-1
16:07:42 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format closed
16:07:48 <Zakim> +??P2
16:07:52 <davidwood> close action-8
16:07:52 <trackbot> ACTION-8 Provide a use case for graphs closed
16:07:56 <davidwood> close action-9
16:07:56 <trackbot> ACTION-9 Provide a Revelytix use case for graphs closed
16:07:59 <davidwood> close action-13
16:07:59 <trackbot> ACTION-13 separate ontology named graph use case closed
16:08:02 <davidwood> close action-14
16:08:02 <trackbot> ACTION-14 Provide use cases for graphs in the wiki closed
16:08:14 <ivan> q-
16:08:16 <hsbauer> ... closing 8, 13, 14 and 9
16:08:46 <AZ> yversr must be him
16:08:57 <hsbauer> ... open action 4,5
16:08:59 <davidwood> yvesr: Is action-5 complete?
16:09:06 <yvesr> davidwood: i started on it
16:09:09 <davidwood> ok
16:09:11 <yvesr> davidwood: we still need to polish it
16:09:17 <sandro> s/yvesr:/yvesr,/
16:09:19 <hsbauer> ... action 6, still open.
16:09:35 <mischat> Zakim, unmute me
16:09:35 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
16:09:35 <sandro> mischat?
16:09:41 <yvesr> ivan: yes
16:09:46 <yvesr> ivan: but still a draft
16:09:51 <hsbauer> ... action 7, 11 still open
16:10:02 <mischat> zakim, mute me
16:10:02 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:10:30 <hsbauer> ... what's our procedure for raised issues
16:10:48 <hsbauer> ... will call out issues open them and discuss briefly
16:12:00 <hsbauer> ... is turtle the same as sparkle 1.0 -- issue one.
16:12:04 <webr3> could close the issue by saying "no" and responding with all differences
16:12:25 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:12:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:12:39 <hsbauer> david: issue 2
16:13:14 <sandro> issue-2?
16:13:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- What existing proposal, if any, should be the starting point/default for the JSON design? -- open
16:13:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2
16:13:39 <hsbauer> ... What existing proposal should be the starting point for the JSON issue
16:14:20 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:14:28 <Zakim> +FabGandon
16:14:42 <hsbauer> ... issue 3 also opened
16:15:08 <hsbauer> ... issue of handling action item. after pleading it mark it as pending review.
16:15:44 <ivan> April 13 14 in Amsterdam, at CWI
#16:15:46 <davidwood> agendum: FTF1
16:15:49 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:15:57 <hsbauer> ... F2F solid dates and location. Group can start making travel plans.
16:16:18 <sandro> q+
16:16:22 <hsbauer> ... Place is TWI in Amsterdam 13th and 14th of march.
16:16:28 <ivan> s/TWI/CWI/
16:16:32 <zwu2> april?
16:16:37 <hsbauer> ... Ivan will take an action itme.
16:16:46 <ivan> april
16:16:48 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:16:50 <ivan> s/march/April/
16:16:50 <davidwood> action: Guus to make hotel suggestions for FTF1
16:16:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-09].
16:16:54 <hsbauer> ... correction 13th and 14th of April
16:17:11 <sandro> ack sandro
16:17:30 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:17:30 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
#16:17:39 <davidwood> agendum: Turtle TF
16:17:39 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
16:17:39 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
#16:17:45 <davidwood> agendum: JSON TF
#16:17:52 <davidwood> agendum: Graphs TF
16:17:59 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:18:09 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:18:09 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
16:18:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (16%), Sandro (25%), Ivan (34%)
#16:18:14 <davidwood> agendum: Discuss Pat Hayes' Proposal for Graphs
16:18:14 <zwu2> q
16:18:16 <zwu2> q+
#16:18:20 <davidwood> agendum: AOB
16:18:23 <davidwood> next agendum
16:18:37 <davidwood> ack zwu2
16:18:55 <davidwood> next agendum
16:19:19 <hsbauer> zwu2: who is in charge of setting the meeting place?
16:19:50 <LeeF> I may need to send regrets for the first F2F as it conflicts with the Bio IT conference in Boston, which I am semi-committed too
16:19:54 <hsbauer> david: team contacts set the first f2f out of expediency
16:19:55 <LeeF> s/too/to
16:20:11 <hsbauer> ... 3 next will take input for those
16:20:17 <hsbauer> ... this one is fixed
16:20:22 <gavinc> If I remember right there was no remote presence ability at CWI?
16:20:30 <ivan> q+
16:20:36 <ivan> ack zwu2
16:20:42 <ivan> ack zwu
16:21:05 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:21:06 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:21:07 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:21:19 <hsbauer> I will also not be able to attend the first f2f
16:21:29 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:21:40 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:21:54 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:21:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:22:00 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:22:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (16%)
16:22:11 <sandro> ivan: We will have remote audio for the F2F
16:22:27 <sandro> ivan: we may be able to do some low-quality video (eg skype)
16:22:48 <LeeF> q+
16:22:59 <davidwood> ack LeeF
16:23:30 <hsbauer> Leef: can we start on an agenda for f2f
16:23:30 <davidwood> q?
16:23:49 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:23:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:23:53 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:24:04 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (31%)
16:24:18 <davidwood> next agendum
16:24:31 <ivan> -> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/amsterdam.html is a good page to convince sandro et al to hang around...
16:24:44 <hsbauer> Topic: turtle task force
16:25:24 <hsbauer> david: who will be participating. discussion of mailing list asking for notes on this
16:25:53 <hsbauer> ... important task forces have some level of self organization.
16:26:06 <hsbauer> ... have someone to speak for them.
16:26:09 <AndyS> Step 1 -- people add names to TTL TF page
16:26:35 <davidwood> Input material to Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Inputs_Turtle
16:26:41 <hsbauer> ... most important to settle issue number one and deal with input material
16:27:07 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:27:18 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (19%), Guus_Schreiber (19%), Ivan (10%)
16:27:31 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF_interests
16:27:50 <hsbauer> Guus: can we ask for volunteers for spokespersons
16:27:57 <ivan> q+
16:28:30 <ivan> q-
16:28:53 <hsbauer> ivan: I have contacted dave, no response. Eric T. is a possibility.
16:29:10 <SteveH> s/Eric T./Eric P./
16:29:41 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:29:51 <sandro> hsbauer, that was Nathan
16:29:52 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (74%), AndyS (8%), Ivan (3%)
16:30:09 <sandro> webr3=Nathan, just to confuse you
16:30:30 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:30:30 <AndyS> q+
16:30:43 <hsbauer> afraid I missed the comment can someone summarize
16:30:45 <davidwood> ack andys
16:31:03 <gavinc> Would like to participate in the Turtle TF but don't really feel comfortable being the representative for it?
16:31:21 <hsbauer> andys: json task force has a list of names. Is there a difference between interest and participation.
16:31:45 <hsbauer> david: this may have not been a clear process for differentating.
16:31:54 <manu> q+ to volunteer to represent JSON TF
16:32:11 <hsbauer> Topic: JSON
16:32:22 <davidwood> JSON TF: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON
16:32:26 <hsbauer> david: we have participants, inputs and questions
16:32:52 <hsbauer> manu: I'm interested in acting as spokeperson, but may have a conflict of interest.
16:33:06 <PatHayes> I dont see a conflict of interest, quite the contrary.
16:33:16 <nathan> likewise, no conflict imo
16:33:32 <hsbauer> david: personal opinion, editing spec and coordinating task force are not a conflict of interest
16:33:42 <manu> ACTION: Manu to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work.
16:33:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-09].
16:33:53 <PatHayes> Nice try, but you got lumbered.
16:34:22 <hsbauer> manu: taking an action item to summarize postions on the mailing list for json
16:35:00 <hsbauer> manu: are we discussing task force tech issues here or just summarize issues here.
16:35:11 <hsbauer> david: up to the task force.
16:35:24 <Guus> q+
16:35:29 <manu> q-
16:35:32 <hsbauer> ... clarify participants, coordinators is current issue
16:35:44 <manu> q+ to note that JSON-TF will need a separate call.
16:35:48 <ivan> q+
16:36:14 <davidwood> ack Guus
16:36:16 <hsbauer> manu: json will need a separate call for a time
16:36:18 <manu> q-
16:36:52 <hsbauer> Guus: tech discussions are ok, but will be busy with admin for the first few weeks.
16:37:12 <davidwood> ack manu
16:37:12 <sandro> q?
16:37:17 <nathan> q+ to discuss tracker for TFs
16:37:20 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:37:25 <manu> q?
16:37:49 <davidwood> ack nathan
16:37:49 <Zakim> nathan, you wanted to discuss tracker for TFs
16:38:19 <hsbauer> ivan: setting up a separate call is possible
16:38:20 <manu> +1 to separate tracker entries by product
16:38:26 <AZ> +1 to ivan
16:38:33 <gavinc> +1 and they are already setup: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products
16:38:34 <PatHayes> +1 to ivan
16:38:49 <hsbauer> nathan: can issues be opened by the task force?
16:38:54 <ivan> q-
16:38:57 <sandro> +1 let TF's open issues for themselves
16:39:08 <sandro> q+
16:39:14 <zwu2> I just signed up for the graph tf
16:39:38 <hsbauer> david: this is ok
16:40:15 <sandro> q-
16:40:26 <sandro> topic: Graphs TF
16:40:28 <hsbauer> david: tracker will take care of tracking for all
16:40:39 <hsbauer> Topic: Graph Task Force
16:40:51 <sandro> s/Graph/Graphs/
16:41:13 <sandro> s/topic: Graphs TF//
16:41:20 <hsbauer> david: summarize immediate issues
16:41:40 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:41:44 <manu> I really liked Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text e-mail
16:41:47 <sandro> it's LeeF
16:41:51 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), LeeF (100%)
16:41:54 <Guus> suggest to have a wiki page with terms and their defs, as synthesis of ongoing discussion
16:42:27 <hsbauer> Leef: discussions on serializations, sharing, multiple blank nodes.
16:43:01 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
16:43:02 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:43:13 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (4%), Ivan (4%)
16:43:43 <hsbauer> manu: httpRange-14 bound to come up at some point
16:43:59 <nathan> that's ISSUE-57 on the TAG now, and AWWSW TF covers too (I, nathan, work w/ JAR on that)
16:44:04 <manu> We should coordinate with Jonathan Rees on the W3C TAG and the SPARQL WG
16:44:06 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker re. sparql
16:44:16 <hsbauer> Leef: should liase with sparql working group asap
16:44:41 <sandro> lee: SPARQL WG is moving to Last Call with its notion of Graphs
16:44:55 <AlexHall> what is the specific issue wrt graphs and SPARQL wg?
16:45:00 <hsbauer> who is talking?
16:45:03 <manu> Folks will want to re-read: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ... really good stuff in there.
16:45:25 <PatHayes> Suggest that biggest issue might turn out to be, does a GET get the whole graph or can you find out how big the damn thing is first? That is a real issue, most of them are nomenclature.
16:45:41 <FabGandon> q+ to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:45:50 <davidwood> q?
16:45:54 <manu> PatHayes, HEAD /graph ?
16:46:00 <hsbauer> Leef: if issues related to sparql wg are raised some contact should be made
16:46:01 <davidwood> ack FabGandon
16:46:01 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:46:14 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/#http-get
16:46:24 <nathan> PatHayes, agree, there's also if the refers to both the "subject" and the "graph" - tis a gotcha
16:46:38 <PatHayes> manu, I know , but it feels like a dangerous issue where one WG might close a door that another WG needs to have open.
16:46:43 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:46:55 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:47:07 <cygri> q+
16:47:19 <AndyS> Also: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_graphstore (from SPARQL 1.1 Update)
16:47:26 <davidwood> +1 to PatHayer
16:47:30 <sandro> FabGandon: I think there's a mismatch about graph vs resource here, when you dereference.
16:47:32 <sandro> q+
16:47:32 <hsbauer> FabGandon: some differences between practices especially around dereferencing.
16:47:36 <davidwood> s/Pathayer/PatHayes/
16:48:01 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker.
16:48:03 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:48:09 <hsbauer> ... what people are doing when defrerencing a uri
16:48:19 <manu> I tend to see that most people get information about the resource they're dereferencing - the graph is the representation about the resource.
16:48:33 <hsbauer> cygri: opmitting what happens when you look up a uri
16:48:39 <hsbauer> thanks ivan
16:48:57 <manu> perhaps, that's naive - but that seems to be the data people are publishing now w/ RDFa.
16:49:01 <nathan> so, follow your nose is a pita we need to clarify soon, especially w/ graphs uris, lod, issue-57 on tag and so forth - not in charter? can we get away with /not/ getting consensus and agrement
16:49:17 <manu> and I really don't like 303 redirects for most use cases :/
16:49:27 <hsbauer> cygri: looks up a uri on a person which leads to a document. one does a redirect and another gives an rdf:desc with is a graph
16:49:52 <PatHayes> Is a graph an IR? A g-box surely is, right?
16:49:54 <hsbauer> ... keep in mind that you shouldn't use the same uri for identifying person and graph.
16:49:59 <davidwood> ack sandro
16:50:01 <nathan> PatHayes, yes exactly
16:50:21 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:50:27 <cygri> hsbauer, it's sandro
16:50:32 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (70%), AndyS (4%), Ivan (20%)
16:50:47 <hsbauer> sandro: graph is used with considerable ambiguity
16:50:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text viewpoint
16:51:14 <hsbauer> ... proposed three terms in practice most often
16:51:32 <davidwood> In my view, a g-box is an IR.
16:51:33 <hsbauer> ... g-box is the container what sparql means
16:51:42 <hsbauer> ... g-snap
16:51:53 <PatHayes> Ahem. That is what the RDF specs say a graph is.
16:51:56 <hsbauer> ... g-text serialization
16:52:17 <manu> q+ to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:31 <LeeF> davidwood, I believe that is the view of the SPARQL RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol as well
16:52:33 <PatHayes> BTW, I entirely agree with sandro's analysis and his ghastly but usable terminology.
16:52:44 <davidwood> q?
16:52:48 <davidwood> ack manu
16:52:48 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:48 <sandro> sandro: explaining http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0092.html
16:53:01 <hsbauer> manu: like sandro's email. clarifies what we are talking about.
16:53:28 <cygri> q+ to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:53:30 <PatHayes> Lets agree that g-snaps are RDF graphs, ie abstract sets.
16:53:33 <hsbauer> ... the terms may change but this is what we are talking about.
16:53:36 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:53:36 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:54:06 <webr3> PatHayes, +1 yes lets, and not a REST "value" at some time - purely an RDF concept, abstract graph, set of triples
16:54:13 <hsbauer> cygri: rdf semantics g-snap? need clarification.
16:54:40 <hsbauer> ... triples or model theoritic interpretation.
16:54:53 <hsbauer> ... do these documents say the same thing.
16:54:57 <hsbauer> thanks
16:55:20 <hsbauer> PatHayes: model theory doesn't depend on the graph syntax.
16:55:40 <sandro> s/model/the model/
16:55:44 <hsbauer> ... can be adapted
16:56:03 <hsbauer> ... we wanted a not to concrete definition
16:56:36 <hsbauer> ... feeling that we didn't want a central model attached to a particular style
16:57:27 <hsbauer> ... g-snaps instances of g-box -- apparently the mathematical version of the g-box
16:57:29 <manu> I thought g-snaps were supposed to be an non-serialized snapshot of a g-box
16:57:46 <hsbauer> ... g-box and g-text fit in the web arch story.
16:57:47 <webr3> manu, yes correct, abstract set of triples
16:58:04 <sandro> q?
16:58:19 <hsbauer> ... g-text is a serialization of the rdf-graph my understanding.
16:58:20 <cygri> thanks
16:58:26 <AZ> totally right, Pat
16:58:44 <mbrunati> .)
16:59:01 <manu> g-box is the REST Information Resource, it's state at a point in time is a g-snap... if you do an HTTP GET on the IR, you get a g-text.
16:59:06 <hsbauer> david: action item for pat to summarize the issue in an email
16:59:41 <manu> so, effectively graphs are just another type of IR - fits really well with Web Architecture.
16:59:48 <davidwood> q?
16:59:49 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation
16:59:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-03-09].
17:00:11 <hsbauer> david: moving on from graph issue.
17:00:18 <webr3> I'll write up action 7 now then <yay>
17:00:25 <hsbauer> Topic: F2f agenda
17:01:03 <hsbauer> david: issues on our timeline
17:01:22 <hsbauer> ... first deliverable due in May.
17:01:27 <AndyS> q+
17:01:33 <ivan> q+
17:01:37 <sandro> q+ to clarify documents
17:01:46 <hsbauer> ... work out tf starting points and organization
17:01:55 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:02:13 <sandro> andy: "Recommendation Set" ?
17:02:27 <hsbauer> andys: what do you mean by the rdf recommendation set?
17:02:39 <hsbauer> david: check the Charter
17:02:51 <davidwood> 4.1 Milestones
17:02:51 <davidwood> This section simply refers to “RDF Recommendation Set” as a collection of W3C Recommendations that together define the new version of RDF. The exact editorial structure of these documents is to be defined by the Working Group
17:02:55 <AndyS> q-
17:03:01 <PatHayes> Guus just vanished
17:03:03 <davidwood> ack ivan
17:04:06 <hsbauer> ivan: we have to clarify. what is the work ahead of us. explict charter work, remaining work from last time.
17:04:43 <PatHayes> There are several bugs in the sematnics document that need to be fixed. The sheer editing will take time, measured in at least weeks maybe months, given the need to check all changes.
17:04:53 <hsbauer> david: I agree. Ivan would you take action item to start the wiki for the f2f
17:05:20 <davidwood> action: Ivan to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content
17:05:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content [on Ivan Herman - due 2011-03-09].
17:05:32 <davidwood> q?
17:05:38 <davidwood> ack Sandro
17:05:38 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to clarify documents
17:06:04 <hsbauer> sandro: no clear notion about how much change needs to be done to existing documents
17:06:15 <hsbauer> ... turtle is a new document
17:06:25 <hsbauer> ... are the graphs a new document
17:06:35 <hsbauer> ... json also a new document
17:06:35 <PatHayes> It seems clear that Concepts will need at least a thorough editing.
17:06:54 <PatHayes> Right.
17:07:26 <AndyS> Don't see how "TriG" fits [if appropriate] but /me assuming that it can fit in TTL if need be.
17:07:38 <hsbauer> david: updates needed, propose continue with existing and add turtle and json
17:07:50 <sandro> sandro: strawman proposal -- revise each existing document, add two more, JSON and Turtle
17:07:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's suggestion on creating new TURTLE and RDFinJSON documents, updating the rest.
17:08:12 <PatHayes> +1 to sandro
17:08:18 <webr3> manu, RDF in JSON or RDFable JSON ? v different
17:08:20 <manu> AndyS - I'd expect TRiG to be shoved into TURTLE.
17:08:25 <AndyS> q+ to ask about N-Triples
17:08:51 <PatHayes> galapagos?
17:08:59 <gavinc> Can it have a cape?
17:09:03 <manu> webr3 - RDFable JSON (not fond of just shoving RDF triples into a JSON format)
17:09:15 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:09:26 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SteveH (1%), davidwood (29%), PatH (22%), Sandro (19%), Ivan (5%)
17:09:29 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:09:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about N-Triples
17:09:37 <sandro> sandro: Maybe the quads-turtle can be superturtle, with some extra features
17:10:08 <hsbauer> AndyS: not precisely defined for n-triples can it be under this banner
17:10:17 <PatHayes> Sounds like we need a 'various triples formats' document. Can this be in the primer?
17:10:46 <gavinc> +1 as N-Triples and N-Quads as a subset of Turtle
17:10:47 <hsbauer> ... hoping n-triples refinement in scope
17:11:09 <hsbauer> sandro: keep n-triples around
17:11:10 <webr3> we need registered media type for n-triples
17:11:12 <gavinc> One mime type would be nice.
17:11:17 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:11:18 <AlexHall> I think every implementation of N-Triples treats it as a subset of Turtle anyways, so I don't see much danger there
17:11:28 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (9%), Sandro (45%), AndyS (46%), Ivan (33%)
17:11:41 <AndyS> <s> <o> . is different in N-Triples and Turtle
17:11:44 <PatHayes> utf-8 vs ascii is NICE??
17:11:45 <SteveH> AlexHall, no, many treat it differently
17:12:01 <gavinc> Yeah, as Turtle is UTF-8 and NTriples is ASCII
17:12:21 <webr3> ascii-7 bit, all /text tree is us-ascii 7-bit ..
17:12:48 <sandro> andy: n-triples doesn't resolve uris, so <s> is a valid URI from its perspective, "s".
17:12:49 <hsbauer> AndyS: n-triples doesn't say anything about resolving uris.
17:13:09 <mischat> s/resolving uris/resolving relative uris/
17:13:10 <hsbauer> david: gavin raised mime-type registration
17:13:20 <davidwood> q?
17:13:28 <hsbauer> ivan: unfinished mime-type reg in turtle
17:13:46 <AndyS> Very keen to not have N-Triples being text/plain
17:14:01 <sandro> +1 andy
17:14:07 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS
17:14:19 <hsbauer> david: closing for business. Adjourning.
17:14:34 <hsbauer> ... reminder to participate in task forces.
17:15:26 <hsbauer> ... scribe for next week Christopher Matthews?
17:15:27 <cmatheus> correct. yes.
17:15:33 <cmatheus> I
17:15:40 <hsbauer> ... matheus
17:15:44 <gavinc> AndyS, yeah: text/plain, application/n-triples, application/x-n-triples, text/n-triples, text/x-n-triples ... ah, NTriples
17:15:48 <cmatheus> I don't have full telephone access today.
17:16:01 <Zakim> -manu
17:16:02 <zwu2> thanks
17:16:03 <PatHayes> Bye.
17:16:04 <ivan> zakim, drop me
17:16:04 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:16:04 <mbrunati> bye
17:16:05 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:16:05 <Zakim> -cygri
17:16:06 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:16:06 <Zakim> -mischat
17:16:06 <AZ> bye
17:16:08 <Zakim> -corby
17:16:10 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:16:11 <Zakim> -PatH
17:16:14 <Zakim> -webr3
17:16:17 <Zakim> -SteveH
17:16:18 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:16:20 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
17:16:22 <Zakim> -gavinc
17:16:26 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:16:28 <Zakim> -mbrunati
17:16:32 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:16:34 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:16:36 <Zakim> -??P2
17:16:40 <Zakim> -FabGandon
17:16:42 <Zakim> -AZ
17:16:44 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
17:17:47 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
17:18:57 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000531
</nowiki></pre>

Chatlog 2011-03-02

Sbauer2 — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:55:29 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
<sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc
15:21:26 <LeeF> Hard to disagree with that
15:21:47 <LeeF> I think I will never get used to reading the "@" sigil in JSON-LD correctly, alas
15:22:05 <mischat> manu: in your trig looking examples, in the example "Graph Changes Over Time" for example, you have trailing "'s
15:22:06 <mischat> "2011-02-26T00:00:00+0000"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>
15:22:10 <mischat> "
15:22:43 <hsbauer> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:22:44 <manu> @LeeF yeah - we could change it to something else? Every time I've changed the key that establishes the subject, somebody complains about it :P
15:23:02 <hsbauer> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:23:20 <hsbauer> Meeting: RDF WG Teleconference
15:24:14 <LeeF> oh i wasn't complaining, manu, i'm just not used to it
15:24:17 <LeeF> I think it's kind of clever
15:25:28 <hsbauer> is david wood chair today?
15:25:49 <manu> LeeF, it's annoying at first, and then you get used to it. '@' was supposed to symbolize - "This object can be found at..." or "This object describes the data at..." or "This object exists at..."
15:29:12 <hsbauer> Chair: David Wood
15:29:49 <hsbauer> zakim, this will be SW_RDFWG
15:29:49 <Zakim> ok, hsbauer; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
15:33:18 <mischat> um, turtle does allow "." before "]" when writing predicateObject lists, as per rule 7 in the turtle submission thing. The correct (turtle'd version of your example) http://pastebin.com/K7D9LQ36 (obviously this is less the graph bit you would get in trig).
15:42:48 <mischat> ok may do that afterwards :)
15:46:36 <webr3> webr3 has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:38 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:51:41 <gavinc> gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:45 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
15:52:49 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:52:59 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:53:57 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:16 <PatHayes> PatHayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:32 <Zakim> +davidwood
15:54:44 <Zakim> +FabGandon
15:55:00 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:55:12 <gavinc> zakim, mute me
15:55:12 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
15:56:52 <davidwood> Meeting: RDF Working Group
15:56:57 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
15:57:28 <Zakim> +PatH
15:57:33 <manu> zakim, code?
15:57:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu
15:57:44 <Zakim> +??P9
15:57:47 <manu> zakim, I am ??P9
15:57:47 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:57:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:57:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:57:55 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:57:58 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:58:12 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:58:12 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:58:23 <davidwood> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:58:32 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:35 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:40 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
15:58:44 <Zakim> +??P10
15:58:56 <mischat> zakim, P10 is me
15:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
15:59:02 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:59:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:07 <mischat> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:59:07 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:59:10 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:59:10 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:59:22 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:25 <Zakim> +??P12
15:59:32 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:59:33 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
15:59:33 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:59:49 <Zakim> +corby
16:00:03 <PatHayes> Im not hearing the breathing.
16:00:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:07 <Zakim> +Alex_Hall
16:00:11 <webr3> zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
16:00:11 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:00:12 <Zakim> +AZ
16:00:18 <webr3> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:00:18 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
16:00:28 <AlexHall> zakim, Alex_Hall is me
16:00:28 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
16:00:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:00:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:00:52 <Zakim> ... AZ
16:00:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH, danbri, davidwood, yvesr,
16:00:57 <Zakim> ... manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:00:58 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
16:01:14 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:26 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:30 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:01:51 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:01:51 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
16:02:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:27 <Zakim> +cygri
16:02:27 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
<sandro> Topic: Admin
16:02:33 <danbri> regrets from me; at mini-NoTube F2F in Bristol (although not as I feared travelling so will follow in IRC)
16:02:51 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here
16:02:51 <Zakim> mbrunati, you need to end that query with '?'
16:03:05 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here?
16:03:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:08 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, [IPcaller], cygri
16:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see cmatheus, Guus, SteveH__, AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH,
16:03:15 <Zakim> ... danbri, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:03:20 <sandro> regrets: danbri, souri
16:03:24 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:03:24 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
16:03:26 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:03:36 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
16:03:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:40 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, mbrunati, cygri
16:03:45 <SteveH__> Zakim, what's the code?
16:03:45 <AZ> AZ is for Antoine Zimmermann
16:03:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), SteveH__
16:03:58 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:03:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:04:13 <hsbauer> regrets: danbri, yvesr, nickh
16:04:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:21 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:04:21 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
16:04:28 <davidwood> Agenda is at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-02 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:59 <pfps> minutes look fine to me
16:05:06 <AndyS> Regrets for last time: AndyS
16:05:07 <hsbauer> david: proposes to accept last weeks minutes
16:05:12 <ivan> +1
16:05:15 <FabGandon> +1
16:05:18 <AZ> +1
16:05:23 <mbrunati> +1
16:05:26 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes
16:05:41 <hsbauer> david: action item review
16:05:43 <davidwood> Action items pending review: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:05:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - items
16:05:47 <PatHayes> ignore this, testing.
16:06:04 <sandro> manu, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:06:47 <hsbauer> ... pending review alex has completed use case, scott has completed use case
16:06:51 <AZ> zakim, unmute me
16:06:51 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted
16:07:11 <hsbauer> ... peter, antoine both completed use cases
16:07:16 <ivan> q+
#16:07:35 <davidwood> ACTION-1: close
16:07:35 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format notes added
16:07:42 <sandro> close action-1
16:07:42 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format closed
16:07:48 <Zakim> +??P2
16:07:52 <davidwood> close action-8
16:07:52 <trackbot> ACTION-8 Provide a use case for graphs closed
16:07:56 <davidwood> close action-9
16:07:56 <trackbot> ACTION-9 Provide a Revelytix use case for graphs closed
16:07:59 <davidwood> close action-13
16:07:59 <trackbot> ACTION-13 separate ontology named graph use case closed
16:08:02 <davidwood> close action-14
16:08:02 <trackbot> ACTION-14 Provide use cases for graphs in the wiki closed
16:08:14 <ivan> q-
16:08:16 <hsbauer> ... closing 8, 13, 14 and 9
16:08:46 <AZ> yversr must be him
16:08:57 <hsbauer> ... open action 4,5
16:08:59 <davidwood> yvesr: Is action-5 complete?
16:09:06 <yvesr> davidwood: i started on it
16:09:09 <davidwood> ok
16:09:11 <yvesr> davidwood: we still need to polish it
16:09:17 <sandro> s/yvesr:/yvesr,/
16:09:19 <hsbauer> ... action 6, still open.
16:09:35 <mischat> Zakim, unmute me
16:09:35 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
16:09:35 <sandro> mischat?
16:09:41 <yvesr> ivan: yes
16:09:46 <yvesr> ivan: but still a draft
16:09:51 <hsbauer> ... action 7, 11 still open
16:10:02 <mischat> zakim, mute me
16:10:02 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:10:30 <hsbauer> ... what's our procedure for raised issues
16:10:48 <hsbauer> ... will call out issues open them and discuss briefly
16:12:00 <hsbauer> ... is turtle the same as sparkle 1.0 -- issue one.
16:12:04 <webr3> could close the issue by saying "no" and responding with all differences
16:12:25 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:12:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:12:39 <hsbauer> david: issue 2
16:13:14 <sandro> issue-2?
16:13:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- What existing proposal, if any, should be the starting point/default for the JSON design? -- open
16:13:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2
16:13:39 <hsbauer> ... What existing proposal should be the starting point for the JSON issue
16:14:20 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:14:28 <Zakim> +FabGandon
16:14:42 <hsbauer> ... issue 3 also opened
16:15:08 <hsbauer> ... issue of handling action item. after pleading it mark it as pending review.
16:15:44 <ivan> April 13 14 in Amsterdam, at CWI
#16:15:46 <davidwood> agendum: FTF1
16:15:49 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:15:57 <hsbauer> ... F2F solid dates and location. Group can start making travel plans.
16:16:18 <sandro> q+
16:16:22 <hsbauer> ... Place is TWI in Amsterdam 13th and 14th of march.
16:16:28 <ivan> s/TWI/CWI/
16:16:32 <zwu2> april?
16:16:37 <hsbauer> ... Ivan will take an action itme.
16:16:46 <ivan> april
16:16:48 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:16:50 <ivan> s/march/April/
16:16:50 <davidwood> action: Guus to make hotel suggestions for FTF1
16:16:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-09].
16:16:54 <hsbauer> ... correction 13th and 14th of April
16:17:11 <sandro> ack sandro
16:17:30 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:17:30 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
#16:17:39 <davidwood> agendum: Turtle TF
16:17:39 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
16:17:39 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
#16:17:45 <davidwood> agendum: JSON TF
#16:17:52 <davidwood> agendum: Graphs TF
16:17:59 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:18:09 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:18:09 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
16:18:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (16%), Sandro (25%), Ivan (34%)
#16:18:14 <davidwood> agendum: Discuss Pat Hayes' Proposal for Graphs
16:18:14 <zwu2> q
16:18:16 <zwu2> q+
#16:18:20 <davidwood> agendum: AOB
16:18:23 <davidwood> next agendum
16:18:37 <davidwood> ack zwu2
16:18:55 <davidwood> next agendum
16:19:19 <hsbauer> zwu2: who is in charge of setting the meeting place?
16:19:50 <LeeF> I may need to send regrets for the first F2F as it conflicts with the Bio IT conference in Boston, which I am semi-committed too
16:19:54 <hsbauer> david: team contacts set the first f2f out of expediency
16:19:55 <LeeF> s/too/to
16:20:11 <hsbauer> ... 3 next will take input for those
16:20:17 <hsbauer> ... this one is fixed
16:20:22 <gavinc> If I remember right there was no remote presence ability at CWI?
16:20:30 <ivan> q+
16:20:36 <ivan> ack zwu2
16:20:42 <ivan> ack zwu
16:21:05 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:21:06 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:21:07 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:21:19 <hsbauer> I will also not be able to attend the first f2f
16:21:29 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:21:40 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:21:54 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:21:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:22:00 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:22:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (16%)
16:22:11 <sandro> ivan: We will have remote audio for the F2F
16:22:27 <sandro> ivan: we may be able to do some low-quality video (eg skype)
16:22:48 <LeeF> q+
16:22:59 <davidwood> ack LeeF
16:23:30 <hsbauer> Leef: can we start on an agenda for f2f
16:23:30 <davidwood> q?
16:23:49 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:23:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:23:53 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:24:04 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (31%)
16:24:18 <davidwood> next agendum
16:24:31 <ivan> -> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/amsterdam.html is a good page to convince sandro et al to hang around...
16:24:44 <hsbauer> Topic: turtle task force
16:25:24 <hsbauer> david: who will be participating. discussion of mailing list asking for notes on this
16:25:53 <hsbauer> ... important task forces have some level of self organization.
16:26:06 <hsbauer> ... have someone to speak for them.
16:26:09 <AndyS> Step 1 -- people add names to TTL TF page
16:26:35 <davidwood> Input material to Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Inputs_Turtle
16:26:41 <hsbauer> ... most important to settle issue number one and deal with input material
16:27:07 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:27:18 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (19%), Guus_Schreiber (19%), Ivan (10%)
16:27:31 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF_interests
16:27:50 <hsbauer> Guus: can we ask for volunteers for spokespersons
16:27:57 <ivan> q+
16:28:30 <ivan> q-
16:28:53 <hsbauer> ivan: I have contacted dave, no response. Eric T. is a possibility.
16:29:10 <SteveH> s/Eric T./Eric P./
16:29:41 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:29:51 <sandro> hsbauer, that was Nathan
16:29:52 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (74%), AndyS (8%), Ivan (3%)
16:30:09 <sandro> webr3=Nathan, just to confuse you
16:30:30 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:30:30 <AndyS> q+
16:30:43 <hsbauer> afraid I missed the comment can someone summarize
16:30:45 <davidwood> ack andys
16:31:03 <gavinc> Would like to participate in the Turtle TF but don't really feel comfortable being the representative for it?
16:31:21 <hsbauer> andys: json task force has a list of names. Is there a difference between interest and participation.
16:31:45 <hsbauer> david: this may have not been a clear process for differentating.
16:31:54 <manu> q+ to volunteer to represent JSON TF
16:32:11 <hsbauer> Topic: JSON
16:32:22 <davidwood> JSON TF: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON
16:32:26 <hsbauer> david: we have participants, inputs and questions
16:32:52 <hsbauer> manu: I'm interested in acting as spokeperson, but may have a conflict of interest.
16:33:06 <PatHayes> I dont see a conflict of interest, quite the contrary.
16:33:16 <nathan> likewise, no conflict imo
16:33:32 <hsbauer> david: personal opinion, editing spec and coordinating task force are not a conflict of interest
16:33:42 <manu> ACTION: Manu to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work.
16:33:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-09].
16:33:53 <PatHayes> Nice try, but you got lumbered.
16:34:22 <hsbauer> manu: taking an action item to summarize postions on the mailing list for json
16:35:00 <hsbauer> manu: are we discussing task force tech issues here or just summarize issues here.
16:35:11 <hsbauer> david: up to the task force.
16:35:24 <Guus> q+
16:35:29 <manu> q-
16:35:32 <hsbauer> ... clarify participants, coordinators is current issue
16:35:44 <manu> q+ to note that JSON-TF will need a separate call.
16:35:48 <ivan> q+
16:36:14 <davidwood> ack Guus
16:36:16 <hsbauer> manu: json will need a separate call for a time
16:36:18 <manu> q-
16:36:52 <hsbauer> Guus: tech discussions are ok, but will be busy with admin for the first few weeks.
16:37:12 <davidwood> ack manu
16:37:12 <sandro> q?
16:37:17 <nathan> q+ to discuss tracker for TFs
16:37:20 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:37:25 <manu> q?
16:37:49 <davidwood> ack nathan
16:37:49 <Zakim> nathan, you wanted to discuss tracker for TFs
16:38:19 <hsbauer> ivan: setting up a separate call is possible
16:38:20 <manu> +1 to separate tracker entries by product
16:38:26 <AZ> +1 to ivan
16:38:33 <gavinc> +1 and they are already setup: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products
16:38:34 <PatHayes> +1 to ivan
16:38:49 <hsbauer> nathan: can issues be opened by the task force?
16:38:54 <ivan> q-
16:38:57 <sandro> +1 let TF's open issues for themselves
16:39:08 <sandro> q+
16:39:14 <zwu2> I just signed up for the graph tf
16:39:38 <hsbauer> david: this is ok
16:40:15 <sandro> q-
16:40:26 <sandro> topic: Graphs TF
16:40:28 <hsbauer> david: tracker will take care of tracking for all
16:40:39 <hsbauer> Topic: Graph Task Force
16:40:51 <sandro> s/Graph/Graphs/
16:41:13 <sandro> s/topic: Graphs TF//
16:41:20 <hsbauer> david: summarize immediate issues
16:41:40 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:41:44 <manu> I really liked Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text e-mail
16:41:47 <sandro> it's LeeF
16:41:51 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), LeeF (100%)
16:41:54 <Guus> suggest to have a wiki page with terms and their defs, as synthesis of ongoing discussion
16:42:27 <hsbauer> Leef: discussions on serializations, sharing, multiple blank nodes.
16:43:01 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
16:43:02 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:43:13 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (4%), Ivan (4%)
16:43:43 <hsbauer> manu: httpRange-14 bound to come up at some point
16:43:59 <nathan> that's ISSUE-57 on the TAG now, and AWWSW TF covers too (I, nathan, work w/ JAR on that)
16:44:04 <manu> We should coordinate with Jonathan Rees on the W3C TAG and the SPARQL WG
16:44:06 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker re. sparql
16:44:16 <hsbauer> Leef: should liase with sparql working group asap
16:44:41 <sandro> lee: SPARQL WG is moving to Last Call with its notion of Graphs
16:44:55 <AlexHall> what is the specific issue wrt graphs and SPARQL wg?
16:45:00 <hsbauer> who is talking?
16:45:03 <manu> Folks will want to re-read: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ... really good stuff in there.
16:45:25 <PatHayes> Suggest that biggest issue might turn out to be, does a GET get the whole graph or can you find out how big the damn thing is first? That is a real issue, most of them are nomenclature.
16:45:41 <FabGandon> q+ to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:45:50 <davidwood> q?
16:45:54 <manu> PatHayes, HEAD /graph ?
16:46:00 <hsbauer> Leef: if issues related to sparql wg are raised some contact should be made
16:46:01 <davidwood> ack FabGandon
16:46:01 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:46:14 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/#http-get
16:46:24 <nathan> PatHayes, agree, there's also if the refers to both the "subject" and the "graph" - tis a gotcha
16:46:38 <PatHayes> manu, I know , but it feels like a dangerous issue where one WG might close a door that another WG needs to have open.
16:46:43 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:46:55 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:47:07 <cygri> q+
16:47:19 <AndyS> Also: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_graphstore (from SPARQL 1.1 Update)
16:47:26 <davidwood> +1 to PatHayer
16:47:30 <sandro> FabGandon: I think there's a mismatch about graph vs resource here, when you dereference.
16:47:32 <sandro> q+
16:47:32 <hsbauer> FabGandon: some differences between practices especially around dereferencing.
16:47:36 <davidwood> s/Pathayer/PatHayes/
16:48:01 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker.
16:48:03 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:48:09 <hsbauer> ... what people are doing when defrerencing a uri
16:48:19 <manu> I tend to see that most people get information about the resource they're dereferencing - the graph is the representation about the resource.
16:48:33 <hsbauer> cygri: opmitting what happens when you look up a uri
16:48:39 <hsbauer> thanks ivan
16:48:57 <manu> perhaps, that's naive - but that seems to be the data people are publishing now w/ RDFa.
16:49:01 <nathan> so, follow your nose is a pita we need to clarify soon, especially w/ graphs uris, lod, issue-57 on tag and so forth - not in charter? can we get away with /not/ getting consensus and agrement
16:49:17 <manu> and I really don't like 303 redirects for most use cases :/
16:49:27 <hsbauer> cygri: looks up a uri on a person which leads to a document. one does a redirect and another gives an rdf:desc with is a graph
16:49:52 <PatHayes> Is a graph an IR? A g-box surely is, right?
16:49:54 <hsbauer> ... keep in mind that you shouldn't use the same uri for identifying person and graph.
16:49:59 <davidwood> ack sandro
16:50:01 <nathan> PatHayes, yes exactly
16:50:21 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:50:27 <cygri> hsbauer, it's sandro
16:50:32 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (70%), AndyS (4%), Ivan (20%)
16:50:47 <hsbauer> sandro: graph is used with considerable ambiguity
16:50:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text viewpoint
16:51:14 <hsbauer> ... proposed three terms in practice most often
16:51:32 <davidwood> In my view, a g-box is an IR.
16:51:33 <hsbauer> ... g-box is the container what sparql means
16:51:42 <hsbauer> ... g-snap
16:51:53 <PatHayes> Ahem. That is what the RDF specs say a graph is.
16:51:56 <hsbauer> ... g-text serialization
16:52:17 <manu> q+ to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:31 <LeeF> davidwood, I believe that is the view of the SPARQL RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol as well
16:52:33 <PatHayes> BTW, I entirely agree with sandro's analysis and his ghastly but usable terminology.
16:52:44 <davidwood> q?
16:52:48 <davidwood> ack manu
16:52:48 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:48 <sandro> sandro: explaining http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0092.html
16:53:01 <hsbauer> manu: like sandro's email. clarifies what we are talking about.
16:53:28 <cygri> q+ to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:53:30 <PatHayes> Lets agree that g-snaps are RDF graphs, ie abstract sets.
16:53:33 <hsbauer> ... the terms may change but this is what we are talking about.
16:53:36 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:53:36 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:54:06 <webr3> PatHayes, +1 yes lets, and not a REST "value" at some time - purely an RDF concept, abstract graph, set of triples
16:54:13 <hsbauer> cygri: rdf semantics g-snap? need clarification.
16:54:40 <hsbauer> ... triples or model theoritic interpretation.
16:54:53 <hsbauer> ... do these documents say the same thing.
16:54:57 <hsbauer> thanks
16:55:20 <hsbauer> PatHayes: model theory doesn't depend on the graph syntax.
16:55:40 <sandro> s/model/the model/
16:55:44 <hsbauer> ... can be adapted
16:56:03 <hsbauer> ... we wanted a not to concrete definition
16:56:36 <hsbauer> ... feeling that we didn't want a central model attached to a particular style
16:57:27 <hsbauer> ... g-snaps instances of g-box -- apparently the mathematical version of the g-box
16:57:29 <manu> I thought g-snaps were supposed to be an non-serialized snapshot of a g-box
16:57:46 <hsbauer> ... g-box and g-text fit in the web arch story.
16:57:47 <webr3> manu, yes correct, abstract set of triples
16:58:04 <sandro> q?
16:58:19 <hsbauer> ... g-text is a serialization of the rdf-graph my understanding.
16:58:20 <cygri> thanks
16:58:26 <AZ> totally right, Pat
16:58:44 <mbrunati> .)
16:59:01 <manu> g-box is the REST Information Resource, it's state at a point in time is a g-snap... if you do an HTTP GET on the IR, you get a g-text.
16:59:06 <hsbauer> david: action item for pat to summarize the issue in an email
16:59:41 <manu> so, effectively graphs are just another type of IR - fits really well with Web Architecture.
16:59:48 <davidwood> q?
16:59:49 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation
16:59:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-03-09].
17:00:11 <hsbauer> david: moving on from graph issue.
17:00:18 <webr3> I'll write up action 7 now then <yay>
17:00:25 <hsbauer> Topic: F2f agenda
17:01:03 <hsbauer> david: issues on our timeline
17:01:22 <hsbauer> ... first deliverable due in May.
17:01:27 <AndyS> q+
17:01:33 <ivan> q+
17:01:37 <sandro> q+ to clarify documents
17:01:46 <hsbauer> ... work out tf starting points and organization
17:01:55 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:02:13 <sandro> andy: "Recommendation Set" ?
17:02:27 <hsbauer> andys: what do you mean by the rdf recommendation set?
17:02:39 <hsbauer> david: check the Charter
17:02:51 <davidwood> 4.1 Milestones
17:02:51 <davidwood> This section simply refers to “RDF Recommendation Set” as a collection of W3C Recommendations that together define the new version of RDF. The exact editorial structure of these documents is to be defined by the Working Group
17:02:55 <AndyS> q-
17:03:01 <PatHayes> Guus just vanished
17:03:03 <davidwood> ack ivan
17:04:06 <hsbauer> ivan: we have to clarify. what is the work ahead of us. explict charter work, remaining work from last time.
17:04:43 <PatHayes> There are several bugs in the sematnics document that need to be fixed. The sheer editing will take time, measured in at least weeks maybe months, given the need to check all changes.
17:04:53 <hsbauer> david: I agree. Ivan would you take action item to start the wiki for the f2f
17:05:20 <davidwood> action: Ivan to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content
17:05:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content [on Ivan Herman - due 2011-03-09].
17:05:32 <davidwood> q?
17:05:38 <davidwood> ack Sandro
17:05:38 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to clarify documents
17:06:04 <hsbauer> sandro: no clear notion about how much change needs to be done to existing documents
17:06:15 <hsbauer> ... turtle is a new document
17:06:25 <hsbauer> ... are the graphs a new document
17:06:35 <hsbauer> ... json also a new document
17:06:35 <PatHayes> It seems clear that Concepts will need at least a thorough editing.
17:06:54 <PatHayes> Right.
17:07:26 <AndyS> Don't see how "TriG" fits [if appropriate] but /me assuming that it can fit in TTL if need be.
17:07:38 <hsbauer> david: updates needed, propose continue with existing and add turtle and json
17:07:50 <sandro> sandro: strawman proposal -- revise each existing document, add two more, JSON and Turtle
17:07:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's suggestion on creating new TURTLE and RDFinJSON documents, updating the rest.
17:08:12 <PatHayes> +1 to sandro
17:08:18 <webr3> manu, RDF in JSON or RDFable JSON ? v different
17:08:20 <manu> AndyS - I'd expect TRiG to be shoved into TURTLE.
17:08:25 <AndyS> q+ to ask about N-Triples
17:08:51 <PatHayes> galapagos?
17:08:59 <gavinc> Can it have a cape?
17:09:03 <manu> webr3 - RDFable JSON (not fond of just shoving RDF triples into a JSON format)
17:09:15 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:09:26 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SteveH (1%), davidwood (29%), PatH (22%), Sandro (19%), Ivan (5%)
17:09:29 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:09:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about N-Triples
17:09:37 <sandro> sandro: Maybe the quads-turtle can be superturtle, with some extra features
17:10:08 <hsbauer> AndyS: not precisely defined for n-triples can it be under this banner
17:10:17 <PatHayes> Sounds like we need a 'various triples formats' document. Can this be in the primer?
17:10:46 <gavinc> +1 as N-Triples and N-Quads as a subset of Turtle
17:10:47 <hsbauer> ... hoping n-triples refinement in scope
17:11:09 <hsbauer> sandro: keep n-triples around
17:11:10 <webr3> we need registered media type for n-triples
17:11:12 <gavinc> One mime type would be nice.
17:11:17 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:11:18 <AlexHall> I think every implementation of N-Triples treats it as a subset of Turtle anyways, so I don't see much danger there
17:11:28 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (9%), Sandro (45%), AndyS (46%), Ivan (33%)
17:11:41 <AndyS> <s> <o> . is different in N-Triples and Turtle
17:11:44 <PatHayes> utf-8 vs ascii is NICE??
17:11:45 <SteveH> AlexHall, no, many treat it differently
17:12:01 <gavinc> Yeah, as Turtle is UTF-8 and NTriples is ASCII
17:12:21 <webr3> ascii-7 bit, all /text tree is us-ascii 7-bit ..
17:12:48 <sandro> andy: n-triples doesn't resolve uris, so <s> is a valid URI from its perspective, "s".
17:12:49 <hsbauer> AndyS: n-triples doesn't say anything about resolving uris.
17:13:09 <mischat> s/resolving uris/resolving relative uris/
17:13:10 <hsbauer> david: gavin raised mime-type registration
17:13:20 <davidwood> q?
17:13:28 <hsbauer> ivan: unfinished mime-type reg in turtle
17:13:46 <AndyS> Very keen to not have N-Triples being text/plain
17:14:01 <sandro> +1 andy
17:14:07 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS
17:14:19 <hsbauer> david: closing for business. Adjourning.
17:14:34 <hsbauer> ... reminder to participate in task forces.
17:15:26 <hsbauer> ... scribe for next week Christopher Matthews?
17:15:27 <cmatheus> correct. yes.
17:15:33 <cmatheus> I
17:15:40 <hsbauer> ... matheus
17:15:44 <gavinc> AndyS, yeah: text/plain, application/n-triples, application/x-n-triples, text/n-triples, text/x-n-triples ... ah, NTriples
17:15:48 <cmatheus> I don't have full telephone access today.
17:16:01 <Zakim> -manu
17:16:02 <zwu2> thanks
17:16:03 <PatHayes> Bye.
17:16:04 <ivan> zakim, drop me
17:16:04 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:16:04 <mbrunati> bye
17:16:05 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:16:05 <Zakim> -cygri
17:16:06 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:16:06 <Zakim> -mischat
17:16:06 <AZ> bye
17:16:08 <Zakim> -corby
17:16:10 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:16:11 <Zakim> -PatH
17:16:14 <Zakim> -webr3
17:16:17 <Zakim> -SteveH
17:16:18 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:16:20 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
17:16:22 <Zakim> -gavinc
17:16:26 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:16:28 <Zakim> -mbrunati
17:16:32 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:16:34 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:16:36 <Zakim> -??P2
17:16:40 <Zakim> -FabGandon
17:16:42 <Zakim> -AZ
17:16:44 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
17:17:47 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
17:18:57 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000531
</nowiki></pre>

Chatlog 2011-03-02

Sbauer2 — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:54:51 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
<sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc
15:21:26 <LeeF> Hard to disagree with that
15:21:47 <LeeF> I think I will never get used to reading the "@" sigil in JSON-LD correctly, alas
15:22:05 <mischat> manu: in your trig looking examples, in the example "Graph Changes Over Time" for example, you have trailing "'s
15:22:06 <mischat> "2011-02-26T00:00:00+0000"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>
15:22:10 <mischat> "
15:22:43 <hsbauer> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:22:44 <manu> @LeeF yeah - we could change it to something else? Every time I've changed the key that establishes the subject, somebody complains about it :P
15:23:02 <hsbauer> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:23:20 <hsbauer> Meeting: RDF WG Teleconference
15:24:14 <LeeF> oh i wasn't complaining, manu, i'm just not used to it
15:24:17 <LeeF> I think it's kind of clever
15:25:28 <hsbauer> is david wood chair today?
15:25:49 <manu> LeeF, it's annoying at first, and then you get used to it. '@' was supposed to symbolize - "This object can be found at..." or "This object describes the data at..." or "This object exists at..."
15:29:12 <hsbauer> Chair: David Wood
15:29:49 <hsbauer> zakim, this will be SW_RDFWG
15:29:49 <Zakim> ok, hsbauer; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
15:33:18 <mischat> um, turtle does allow "." before "]" when writing predicateObject lists, as per rule 7 in the turtle submission thing. The correct (turtle'd version of your example) http://pastebin.com/K7D9LQ36 (obviously this is less the graph bit you would get in trig).
15:42:48 <mischat> ok may do that afterwards :)
15:46:36 <webr3> webr3 has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:38 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:51:41 <gavinc> gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:45 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
15:52:49 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:52:59 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:53:57 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:16 <PatHayes> PatHayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:32 <Zakim> +davidwood
15:54:44 <Zakim> +FabGandon
15:55:00 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:55:12 <gavinc> zakim, mute me
15:55:12 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
15:56:52 <davidwood> Meeting: RDF Working Group
15:56:57 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
15:57:28 <Zakim> +PatH
15:57:33 <manu> zakim, code?
15:57:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu
15:57:44 <Zakim> +??P9
15:57:47 <manu> zakim, I am ??P9
15:57:47 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:57:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:57:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:57:55 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:57:58 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:58:12 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:58:12 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:58:23 <davidwood> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:58:32 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:35 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:40 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
15:58:44 <Zakim> +??P10
15:58:56 <mischat> zakim, P10 is me
15:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
15:59:02 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:59:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:07 <mischat> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:59:07 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:59:10 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:59:10 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:59:22 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:25 <Zakim> +??P12
15:59:32 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:59:33 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
15:59:33 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:59:49 <Zakim> +corby
16:00:03 <PatHayes> Im not hearing the breathing.
16:00:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:07 <Zakim> +Alex_Hall
16:00:11 <webr3> zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
16:00:11 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:00:12 <Zakim> +AZ
16:00:18 <webr3> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:00:18 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
16:00:28 <AlexHall> zakim, Alex_Hall is me
16:00:28 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
16:00:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:00:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:00:52 <Zakim> ... AZ
16:00:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH, danbri, davidwood, yvesr,
16:00:57 <Zakim> ... manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:00:58 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
16:01:14 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:26 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:30 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:01:51 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:01:51 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
16:02:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:27 <Zakim> +cygri
16:02:27 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
<sandro> Topic: Admin
16:02:33 <danbri> regrets from me; at mini-NoTube F2F in Bristol (although not as I feared travelling so will follow in IRC)
16:02:51 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here
16:02:51 <Zakim> mbrunati, you need to end that query with '?'
16:03:05 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here?
16:03:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:08 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, [IPcaller], cygri
16:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see cmatheus, Guus, SteveH__, AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH,
16:03:15 <Zakim> ... danbri, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:03:20 <sandro> regrets: danbri, souri
16:03:24 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:03:24 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
16:03:26 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:03:36 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
16:03:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:40 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, mbrunati, cygri
16:03:45 <SteveH__> Zakim, what's the code?
16:03:45 <AZ> AZ is for Antoine Zimmermann
16:03:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), SteveH__
16:03:58 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:03:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:04:13 <hsbauer> regrets: danbri, yvesr, nickh
Regrets: Pierre-Antoine Champin
16:04:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:21 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:04:21 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
16:04:28 <davidwood> Agenda is at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-02 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:59 <pfps> minutes look fine to me
16:05:06 <AndyS> Regrets for last time: AndyS
16:05:07 <hsbauer> david: proposes to accept last weeks minutes
16:05:12 <ivan> +1
16:05:15 <FabGandon> +1
16:05:18 <AZ> +1
16:05:23 <mbrunati> +1
16:05:26 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes
16:05:41 <hsbauer> david: action item review
16:05:43 <davidwood> Action items pending review: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:05:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - items
16:05:47 <PatHayes> ignore this, testing.
16:06:04 <sandro> manu, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:06:47 <hsbauer> ... pending review alex has completed use case, scott has completed use case
16:06:51 <AZ> zakim, unmute me
16:06:51 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted
16:07:11 <hsbauer> ... peter, antoine both completed use cases
16:07:16 <ivan> q+
#16:07:35 <davidwood> ACTION-1: close
16:07:35 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format notes added
16:07:42 <sandro> close action-1
16:07:42 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format closed
16:07:48 <Zakim> +??P2
16:07:52 <davidwood> close action-8
16:07:52 <trackbot> ACTION-8 Provide a use case for graphs closed
16:07:56 <davidwood> close action-9
16:07:56 <trackbot> ACTION-9 Provide a Revelytix use case for graphs closed
16:07:59 <davidwood> close action-13
16:07:59 <trackbot> ACTION-13 separate ontology named graph use case closed
16:08:02 <davidwood> close action-14
16:08:02 <trackbot> ACTION-14 Provide use cases for graphs in the wiki closed
16:08:14 <ivan> q-
16:08:16 <hsbauer> ... closing 8, 13, 14 and 9
16:08:46 <AZ> yversr must be him
16:08:57 <hsbauer> ... open action 4,5
16:08:59 <davidwood> yvesr: Is action-5 complete?
16:09:06 <yvesr> davidwood: i started on it
16:09:09 <davidwood> ok
16:09:11 <yvesr> davidwood: we still need to polish it
16:09:17 <sandro> s/yvesr:/yvesr,/
16:09:19 <hsbauer> ... action 6, still open.
16:09:35 <mischat> Zakim, unmute me
16:09:35 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
16:09:35 <sandro> mischat?
16:09:41 <yvesr> ivan: yes
16:09:46 <yvesr> ivan: but still a draft
16:09:51 <hsbauer> ... action 7, 11 still open
16:10:02 <mischat> zakim, mute me
16:10:02 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:10:30 <hsbauer> ... what's our procedure for raised issues
16:10:48 <hsbauer> ... will call out issues open them and discuss briefly
16:12:00 <hsbauer> ... is turtle the same as sparkle 1.0 -- issue one.
16:12:04 <webr3> could close the issue by saying "no" and responding with all differences
16:12:25 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:12:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:12:39 <hsbauer> david: issue 2
16:13:14 <sandro> issue-2?
16:13:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- What existing proposal, if any, should be the starting point/default for the JSON design? -- open
16:13:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2
16:13:39 <hsbauer> ... What existing proposal should be the starting point for the JSON issue
16:14:20 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:14:28 <Zakim> +FabGandon
16:14:42 <hsbauer> ... issue 3 also opened
16:15:08 <hsbauer> ... issue of handling action item. after pleading it mark it as pending review.
16:15:44 <ivan> April 13 14 in Amsterdam, at CWI
#16:15:46 <davidwood> agendum: FTF1
16:15:49 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:15:57 <hsbauer> ... F2F solid dates and location. Group can start making travel plans.
16:16:18 <sandro> q+
16:16:22 <hsbauer> ... Place is TWI in Amsterdam 13th and 14th of march.
16:16:28 <ivan> s/TWI/CWI/
16:16:32 <zwu2> april?
16:16:37 <hsbauer> ... Ivan will take an action itme.
16:16:46 <ivan> april
16:16:48 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:16:50 <ivan> s/march/April/
16:16:50 <davidwood> action: Guus to make hotel suggestions for FTF1
16:16:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-09].
16:16:54 <hsbauer> ... correction 13th and 14th of April
16:17:11 <sandro> ack sandro
16:17:30 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:17:30 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
#16:17:39 <davidwood> agendum: Turtle TF
16:17:39 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
16:17:39 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
#16:17:45 <davidwood> agendum: JSON TF
#16:17:52 <davidwood> agendum: Graphs TF
16:17:59 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:18:09 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:18:09 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
16:18:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (16%), Sandro (25%), Ivan (34%)
#16:18:14 <davidwood> agendum: Discuss Pat Hayes' Proposal for Graphs
16:18:14 <zwu2> q
16:18:16 <zwu2> q+
#16:18:20 <davidwood> agendum: AOB
16:18:23 <davidwood> next agendum
16:18:37 <davidwood> ack zwu2
16:18:55 <davidwood> next agendum
16:19:19 <hsbauer> zwu2: who is in charge of setting the meeting place?
16:19:50 <LeeF> I may need to send regrets for the first F2F as it conflicts with the Bio IT conference in Boston, which I am semi-committed too
16:19:54 <hsbauer> david: team contacts set the first f2f out of expediency
16:19:55 <LeeF> s/too/to
16:20:11 <hsbauer> ... 3 next will take input for those
16:20:17 <hsbauer> ... this one is fixed
16:20:22 <gavinc> If I remember right there was no remote presence ability at CWI?
16:20:30 <ivan> q+
16:20:36 <ivan> ack zwu2
16:20:42 <ivan> ack zwu
16:21:05 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:21:06 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:21:07 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:21:19 <hsbauer> I will also not be able to attend the first f2f
16:21:29 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:21:40 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:21:54 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:21:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:22:00 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:22:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (16%)
16:22:11 <sandro> ivan: We will have remote audio for the F2F
16:22:27 <sandro> ivan: we may be able to do some low-quality video (eg skype)
16:22:48 <LeeF> q+
16:22:59 <davidwood> ack LeeF
16:23:30 <hsbauer> Leef: can we start on an agenda for f2f
16:23:30 <davidwood> q?
16:23:49 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:23:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:23:53 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:24:04 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (31%)
16:24:18 <davidwood> next agendum
16:24:31 <ivan> -> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/amsterdam.html is a good page to convince sandro et al to hang around...
16:24:44 <hsbauer> Topic: turtle task force
16:25:24 <hsbauer> david: who will be participating. discussion of mailing list asking for notes on this
16:25:53 <hsbauer> ... important task forces have some level of self organization.
16:26:06 <hsbauer> ... have someone to speak for them.
16:26:09 <AndyS> Step 1 -- people add names to TTL TF page
16:26:35 <davidwood> Input material to Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Inputs_Turtle
16:26:41 <hsbauer> ... most important to settle issue number one and deal with input material
16:27:07 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:27:18 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (19%), Guus_Schreiber (19%), Ivan (10%)
16:27:31 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF_interests
16:27:50 <hsbauer> Guus: can we ask for volunteers for spokespersons
16:27:57 <ivan> q+
16:28:30 <ivan> q-
16:28:53 <hsbauer> ivan: I have contacted dave, no response. Eric T. is a possibility.
16:29:10 <SteveH> s/Eric T./Eric P./
16:29:41 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:29:51 <sandro> hsbauer, that was Nathan
16:29:52 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (74%), AndyS (8%), Ivan (3%)
16:30:09 <sandro> webr3=Nathan, just to confuse you
16:30:30 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:30:30 <AndyS> q+
16:30:43 <hsbauer> afraid I missed the comment can someone summarize
16:30:45 <davidwood> ack andys
16:31:03 <gavinc> Would like to participate in the Turtle TF but don't really feel comfortable being the representative for it?
16:31:21 <hsbauer> andys: json task force has a list of names. Is there a difference between interest and participation.
16:31:45 <hsbauer> david: this may have not been a clear process for differentating.
16:31:54 <manu> q+ to volunteer to represent JSON TF
16:32:11 <hsbauer> Topic: JSON
16:32:22 <davidwood> JSON TF: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON
16:32:26 <hsbauer> david: we have participants, inputs and questions
16:32:52 <hsbauer> manu: I'm interested in acting as spokeperson, but may have a conflict of interest.
16:33:06 <PatHayes> I dont see a conflict of interest, quite the contrary.
16:33:16 <nathan> likewise, no conflict imo
16:33:32 <hsbauer> david: personal opinion, editing spec and coordinating task force are not a conflict of interest
16:33:42 <manu> ACTION: Manu to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work.
16:33:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-09].
16:33:53 <PatHayes> Nice try, but you got lumbered.
16:34:22 <hsbauer> manu: taking an action item to summarize postions on the mailing list for json
16:35:00 <hsbauer> manu: are we discussing task force tech issues here or just summarize issues here.
16:35:11 <hsbauer> david: up to the task force.
16:35:24 <Guus> q+
16:35:29 <manu> q-
16:35:32 <hsbauer> ... clarify participants, coordinators is current issue
16:35:44 <manu> q+ to note that JSON-TF will need a separate call.
16:35:48 <ivan> q+
16:36:14 <davidwood> ack Guus
16:36:16 <hsbauer> manu: json will need a separate call for a time
16:36:18 <manu> q-
16:36:52 <hsbauer> Guus: tech discussions are ok, but will be busy with admin for the first few weeks.
16:37:12 <davidwood> ack manu
16:37:12 <sandro> q?
16:37:17 <nathan> q+ to discuss tracker for TFs
16:37:20 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:37:25 <manu> q?
16:37:49 <davidwood> ack nathan
16:37:49 <Zakim> nathan, you wanted to discuss tracker for TFs
16:38:19 <hsbauer> ivan: setting up a separate call is possible
16:38:20 <manu> +1 to separate tracker entries by product
16:38:26 <AZ> +1 to ivan
16:38:33 <gavinc> +1 and they are already setup: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products
16:38:34 <PatHayes> +1 to ivan
16:38:49 <hsbauer> nathan: can issues be opened by the task force?
16:38:54 <ivan> q-
16:38:57 <sandro> +1 let TF's open issues for themselves
16:39:08 <sandro> q+
16:39:14 <zwu2> I just signed up for the graph tf
16:39:38 <hsbauer> david: this is ok
16:40:15 <sandro> q-
16:40:26 <sandro> topic: Graphs TF
16:40:28 <hsbauer> david: tracker will take care of tracking for all
16:40:39 <hsbauer> Topic: Graph Task Force
16:40:51 <sandro> s/Graph/Graphs/
16:41:13 <sandro> s/topic: Graphs TF//
16:41:20 <hsbauer> david: summarize immediate issues
16:41:40 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:41:44 <manu> I really liked Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text e-mail
16:41:47 <sandro> it's LeeF
16:41:51 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), LeeF (100%)
16:41:54 <Guus> suggest to have a wiki page with terms and their defs, as synthesis of ongoing discussion
16:42:27 <hsbauer> Leef: discussions on serializations, sharing, multiple blank nodes.
16:43:01 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
16:43:02 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:43:13 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (4%), Ivan (4%)
16:43:43 <hsbauer> manu: httpRange-14 bound to come up at some point
16:43:59 <nathan> that's ISSUE-57 on the TAG now, and AWWSW TF covers too (I, nathan, work w/ JAR on that)
16:44:04 <manu> We should coordinate with Jonathan Rees on the W3C TAG and the SPARQL WG
16:44:06 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker re. sparql
16:44:16 <hsbauer> Leef: should liase with sparql working group asap
16:44:41 <sandro> lee: SPARQL WG is moving to Last Call with its notion of Graphs
16:44:55 <AlexHall> what is the specific issue wrt graphs and SPARQL wg?
16:45:00 <hsbauer> who is talking?
16:45:03 <manu> Folks will want to re-read: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ... really good stuff in there.
16:45:25 <PatHayes> Suggest that biggest issue might turn out to be, does a GET get the whole graph or can you find out how big the damn thing is first? That is a real issue, most of them are nomenclature.
16:45:41 <FabGandon> q+ to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:45:50 <davidwood> q?
16:45:54 <manu> PatHayes, HEAD /graph ?
16:46:00 <hsbauer> Leef: if issues related to sparql wg are raised some contact should be made
16:46:01 <davidwood> ack FabGandon
16:46:01 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:46:14 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/#http-get
16:46:24 <nathan> PatHayes, agree, there's also if the refers to both the "subject" and the "graph" - tis a gotcha
16:46:38 <PatHayes> manu, I know , but it feels like a dangerous issue where one WG might close a door that another WG needs to have open.
16:46:43 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:46:55 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:47:07 <cygri> q+
16:47:19 <AndyS> Also: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_graphstore (from SPARQL 1.1 Update)
16:47:26 <davidwood> +1 to PatHayer
16:47:30 <sandro> FabGandon: I think there's a mismatch about graph vs resource here, when you dereference.
16:47:32 <sandro> q+
16:47:32 <hsbauer> FabGandon: some differences between practices especially around dereferencing.
16:47:36 <davidwood> s/Pathayer/PatHayes/
16:48:01 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker.
16:48:03 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:48:09 <hsbauer> ... what people are doing when defrerencing a uri
16:48:19 <manu> I tend to see that most people get information about the resource they're dereferencing - the graph is the representation about the resource.
16:48:33 <hsbauer> cygri: opmitting what happens when you look up a uri
16:48:39 <hsbauer> thanks ivan
16:48:57 <manu> perhaps, that's naive - but that seems to be the data people are publishing now w/ RDFa.
16:49:01 <nathan> so, follow your nose is a pita we need to clarify soon, especially w/ graphs uris, lod, issue-57 on tag and so forth - not in charter? can we get away with /not/ getting consensus and agrement
16:49:17 <manu> and I really don't like 303 redirects for most use cases :/
16:49:27 <hsbauer> cygri: looks up a uri on a person which leads to a document. one does a redirect and another gives an rdf:desc with is a graph
16:49:52 <PatHayes> Is a graph an IR? A g-box surely is, right?
16:49:54 <hsbauer> ... keep in mind that you shouldn't use the same uri for identifying person and graph.
16:49:59 <davidwood> ack sandro
16:50:01 <nathan> PatHayes, yes exactly
16:50:21 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:50:27 <cygri> hsbauer, it's sandro
16:50:32 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (70%), AndyS (4%), Ivan (20%)
16:50:47 <hsbauer> sandro: graph is used with considerable ambiguity
16:50:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text viewpoint
16:51:14 <hsbauer> ... proposed three terms in practice most often
16:51:32 <davidwood> In my view, a g-box is an IR.
16:51:33 <hsbauer> ... g-box is the container what sparql means
16:51:42 <hsbauer> ... g-snap
16:51:53 <PatHayes> Ahem. That is what the RDF specs say a graph is.
16:51:56 <hsbauer> ... g-text serialization
16:52:17 <manu> q+ to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:31 <LeeF> davidwood, I believe that is the view of the SPARQL RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol as well
16:52:33 <PatHayes> BTW, I entirely agree with sandro's analysis and his ghastly but usable terminology.
16:52:44 <davidwood> q?
16:52:48 <davidwood> ack manu
16:52:48 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:48 <sandro> sandro: explaining http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0092.html
16:53:01 <hsbauer> manu: like sandro's email. clarifies what we are talking about.
16:53:28 <cygri> q+ to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:53:30 <PatHayes> Lets agree that g-snaps are RDF graphs, ie abstract sets.
16:53:33 <hsbauer> ... the terms may change but this is what we are talking about.
16:53:36 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:53:36 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:54:06 <webr3> PatHayes, +1 yes lets, and not a REST "value" at some time - purely an RDF concept, abstract graph, set of triples
16:54:13 <hsbauer> cygri: rdf semantics g-snap? need clarification.
16:54:40 <hsbauer> ... triples or model theoritic interpretation.
16:54:53 <hsbauer> ... do these documents say the same thing.
16:54:57 <hsbauer> thanks
16:55:20 <hsbauer> PatHayes: model theory doesn't depend on the graph syntax.
16:55:40 <sandro> s/model/the model/
16:55:44 <hsbauer> ... can be adapted
16:56:03 <hsbauer> ... we wanted a not to concrete definition
16:56:36 <hsbauer> ... feeling that we didn't want a central model attached to a particular style
16:57:27 <hsbauer> ... g-snaps instances of g-box -- apparently the mathematical version of the g-box
16:57:29 <manu> I thought g-snaps were supposed to be an non-serialized snapshot of a g-box
16:57:46 <hsbauer> ... g-box and g-text fit in the web arch story.
16:57:47 <webr3> manu, yes correct, abstract set of triples
16:58:04 <sandro> q?
16:58:19 <hsbauer> ... g-text is a serialization of the rdf-graph my understanding.
16:58:20 <cygri> thanks
16:58:26 <AZ> totally right, Pat
16:58:44 <mbrunati> .)
16:59:01 <manu> g-box is the REST Information Resource, it's state at a point in time is a g-snap... if you do an HTTP GET on the IR, you get a g-text.
16:59:06 <hsbauer> david: action item for pat to summarize the issue in an email
16:59:41 <manu> so, effectively graphs are just another type of IR - fits really well with Web Architecture.
16:59:48 <davidwood> q?
16:59:49 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation
16:59:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-03-09].
17:00:11 <hsbauer> david: moving on from graph issue.
17:00:18 <webr3> I'll write up action 7 now then <yay>
17:00:25 <hsbauer> Topic: F2f agenda
17:01:03 <hsbauer> david: issues on our timeline
17:01:22 <hsbauer> ... first deliverable due in May.
17:01:27 <AndyS> q+
17:01:33 <ivan> q+
17:01:37 <sandro> q+ to clarify documents
17:01:46 <hsbauer> ... work out tf starting points and organization
17:01:55 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:02:13 <sandro> andy: "Recommendation Set" ?
17:02:27 <hsbauer> andys: what do you mean by the rdf recommendation set?
17:02:39 <hsbauer> david: check the Charter
17:02:51 <davidwood> 4.1 Milestones
17:02:51 <davidwood> This section simply refers to “RDF Recommendation Set” as a collection of W3C Recommendations that together define the new version of RDF. The exact editorial structure of these documents is to be defined by the Working Group
17:02:55 <AndyS> q-
17:03:01 <PatHayes> Guus just vanished
17:03:03 <davidwood> ack ivan
17:04:06 <hsbauer> ivan: we have to clarify. what is the work ahead of us. explict charter work, remaining work from last time.
17:04:43 <PatHayes> There are several bugs in the sematnics document that need to be fixed. The sheer editing will take time, measured in at least weeks maybe months, given the need to check all changes.
17:04:53 <hsbauer> david: I agree. Ivan would you take action item to start the wiki for the f2f
17:05:20 <davidwood> action: Ivan to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content
17:05:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content [on Ivan Herman - due 2011-03-09].
17:05:32 <davidwood> q?
17:05:38 <davidwood> ack Sandro
17:05:38 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to clarify documents
17:06:04 <hsbauer> sandro: no clear notion about how much change needs to be done to existing documents
17:06:15 <hsbauer> ... turtle is a new document
17:06:25 <hsbauer> ... are the graphs a new document
17:06:35 <hsbauer> ... json also a new document
17:06:35 <PatHayes> It seems clear that Concepts will need at least a thorough editing.
17:06:54 <PatHayes> Right.
17:07:26 <AndyS> Don't see how "TriG" fits [if appropriate] but /me assuming that it can fit in TTL if need be.
17:07:38 <hsbauer> david: updates needed, propose continue with existing and add turtle and json
17:07:50 <sandro> sandro: strawman proposal -- revise each existing document, add two more, JSON and Turtle
17:07:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's suggestion on creating new TURTLE and RDFinJSON documents, updating the rest.
17:08:12 <PatHayes> +1 to sandro
17:08:18 <webr3> manu, RDF in JSON or RDFable JSON ? v different
17:08:20 <manu> AndyS - I'd expect TRiG to be shoved into TURTLE.
17:08:25 <AndyS> q+ to ask about N-Triples
17:08:51 <PatHayes> galapagos?
17:08:59 <gavinc> Can it have a cape?
17:09:03 <manu> webr3 - RDFable JSON (not fond of just shoving RDF triples into a JSON format)
17:09:15 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:09:26 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SteveH (1%), davidwood (29%), PatH (22%), Sandro (19%), Ivan (5%)
17:09:29 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:09:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about N-Triples
17:09:37 <sandro> sandro: Maybe the quads-turtle can be superturtle, with some extra features
17:10:08 <hsbauer> AndyS: not precisely defined for n-triples can it be under this banner
17:10:17 <PatHayes> Sounds like we need a 'various triples formats' document. Can this be in the primer?
17:10:46 <gavinc> +1 as N-Triples and N-Quads as a subset of Turtle
17:10:47 <hsbauer> ... hoping n-triples refinement in scope
17:11:09 <hsbauer> sandro: keep n-triples around
17:11:10 <webr3> we need registered media type for n-triples
17:11:12 <gavinc> One mime type would be nice.
17:11:17 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:11:18 <AlexHall> I think every implementation of N-Triples treats it as a subset of Turtle anyways, so I don't see much danger there
17:11:28 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (9%), Sandro (45%), AndyS (46%), Ivan (33%)
17:11:41 <AndyS> <s> <o> . is different in N-Triples and Turtle
17:11:44 <PatHayes> utf-8 vs ascii is NICE??
17:11:45 <SteveH> AlexHall, no, many treat it differently
17:12:01 <gavinc> Yeah, as Turtle is UTF-8 and NTriples is ASCII
17:12:21 <webr3> ascii-7 bit, all /text tree is us-ascii 7-bit ..
17:12:48 <sandro> andy: n-triples doesn't resolve uris, so <s> is a valid URI from its perspective, "s".
17:12:49 <hsbauer> AndyS: n-triples doesn't say anything about resolving uris.
17:13:09 <mischat> s/resolving uris/resolving relative uris/
17:13:10 <hsbauer> david: gavin raised mime-type registration
17:13:20 <davidwood> q?
17:13:28 <hsbauer> ivan: unfinished mime-type reg in turtle
17:13:46 <AndyS> Very keen to not have N-Triples being text/plain
17:14:01 <sandro> +1 andy
17:14:07 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS
17:14:19 <hsbauer> david: closing for business. Adjourning.
17:14:34 <hsbauer> ... reminder to participate in task forces.
17:15:26 <hsbauer> ... scribe for next week Christopher Matthews?
17:15:27 <cmatheus> correct. yes.
17:15:33 <cmatheus> I
17:15:40 <hsbauer> ... matheus
17:15:44 <gavinc> AndyS, yeah: text/plain, application/n-triples, application/x-n-triples, text/n-triples, text/x-n-triples ... ah, NTriples
17:15:48 <cmatheus> I don't have full telephone access today.
17:16:01 <Zakim> -manu
17:16:02 <zwu2> thanks
17:16:03 <PatHayes> Bye.
17:16:04 <ivan> zakim, drop me
17:16:04 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:16:04 <mbrunati> bye
17:16:05 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:16:05 <Zakim> -cygri
17:16:06 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:16:06 <Zakim> -mischat
17:16:06 <AZ> bye
17:16:08 <Zakim> -corby
17:16:10 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:16:11 <Zakim> -PatH
17:16:14 <Zakim> -webr3
17:16:17 <Zakim> -SteveH
17:16:18 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:16:20 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
17:16:22 <Zakim> -gavinc
17:16:26 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:16:28 <Zakim> -mbrunati
17:16:32 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:16:34 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:16:36 <Zakim> -??P2
17:16:40 <Zakim> -FabGandon
17:16:42 <Zakim> -AZ
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17:17:47 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
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Chatlog 2011-03-02

Sbauer2 — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:24:51 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc
15:21:26 <LeeF> Hard to disagree with that
15:21:47 <LeeF> I think I will never get used to reading the "@" sigil in JSON-LD correctly, alas
15:22:05 <mischat> manu: in your trig looking examples, in the example "Graph Changes Over Time" for example, you have trailing "'s
15:22:06 <mischat> "2011-02-26T00:00:00+0000"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>
15:22:10 <mischat> "
15:22:43 <hsbauer> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:22:44 <manu> @LeeF yeah - we could change it to something else? Every time I've changed the key that establishes the subject, somebody complains about it :P
15:23:02 <hsbauer> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:23:20 <hsbauer> Meeting: RDF WG Teleconference
15:24:14 <LeeF> oh i wasn't complaining, manu, i'm just not used to it
15:24:17 <LeeF> I think it's kind of clever
15:25:28 <hsbauer> is david wood chair today?
15:25:49 <manu> LeeF, it's annoying at first, and then you get used to it. '@' was supposed to symbolize - "This object can be found at..." or "This object describes the data at..." or "This object exists at..."
15:29:12 <hsbauer> Chair: David Wood
15:29:49 <hsbauer> zakim, this will be SW_RDFWG
15:29:49 <Zakim> ok, hsbauer; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
15:33:18 <mischat> um, turtle does allow "." before "]" when writing predicateObject lists, as per rule 7 in the turtle submission thing. The correct (turtle'd version of your example) http://pastebin.com/K7D9LQ36 (obviously this is less the graph bit you would get in trig).
15:42:48 <mischat> ok may do that afterwards :)
15:46:36 <webr3> webr3 has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:38 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:51:41 <gavinc> gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:45 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
15:52:49 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:52:59 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:53:57 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:16 <PatHayes> PatHayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:32 <Zakim> +davidwood
15:54:44 <Zakim> +FabGandon
15:55:00 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:55:12 <gavinc> zakim, mute me
15:55:12 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
15:56:52 <davidwood> Meeting: RDF Working Group
15:56:57 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
15:57:28 <Zakim> +PatH
15:57:33 <manu> zakim, code?
15:57:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu
15:57:44 <Zakim> +??P9
15:57:47 <manu> zakim, I am ??P9
15:57:47 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:57:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:57:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:57:55 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:57:58 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:58:12 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:58:12 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:58:23 <davidwood> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:58:32 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:35 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:40 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
15:58:44 <Zakim> +??P10
15:58:56 <mischat> zakim, P10 is me
15:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
15:59:02 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:59:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:07 <mischat> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:59:07 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:59:10 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:59:10 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:59:22 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:25 <Zakim> +??P12
15:59:32 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:59:33 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
15:59:33 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:59:49 <Zakim> +corby
16:00:03 <PatHayes> Im not hearing the breathing.
16:00:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:07 <Zakim> +Alex_Hall
16:00:11 <webr3> zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
16:00:11 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:00:12 <Zakim> +AZ
16:00:18 <webr3> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:00:18 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
16:00:28 <AlexHall> zakim, Alex_Hall is me
16:00:28 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
16:00:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:00:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:00:52 <Zakim> ... AZ
16:00:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH, danbri, davidwood, yvesr,
16:00:57 <Zakim> ... manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:00:58 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
16:01:14 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:26 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:30 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:01:51 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:01:51 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
16:02:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:27 <Zakim> +cygri
16:02:27 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:33 <danbri> regrets from me; at mini-NoTube F2F in Bristol (although not as I feared travelling so will follow in IRC)
16:02:51 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here
16:02:51 <Zakim> mbrunati, you need to end that query with '?'
16:03:05 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here?
16:03:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:08 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, [IPcaller], cygri
16:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see cmatheus, Guus, SteveH__, AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH,
16:03:15 <Zakim> ... danbri, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:03:20 <sandro> regrets: danbri, souri
16:03:24 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:03:24 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
16:03:26 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:03:36 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
16:03:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:40 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, mbrunati, cygri
16:03:45 <SteveH__> Zakim, what's the code?
16:03:45 <AZ> AZ is for Antoine Zimmermann
16:03:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), SteveH__
16:03:58 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:03:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:04:13 <hsbauer> regrets: danbri, yvesr, nickh
16:04:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:21 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:04:21 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
16:04:28 <davidwood> Agenda is at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-02 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:59 <pfps> minutes look fine to me
16:05:06 <AndyS> Regrets for last time: AndyS
16:05:07 <hsbauer> david: proposes to accept last weeks minutes
16:05:12 <ivan> +1
16:05:15 <FabGandon> +1
16:05:18 <AZ> +1
16:05:23 <mbrunati> +1
16:05:26 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes
16:05:41 <hsbauer> david: action item review
16:05:43 <davidwood> Action items pending review: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:05:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - items
16:05:47 <PatHayes> ignore this, testing.
16:06:04 <sandro> manu, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:06:47 <hsbauer> ... pending review alex has completed use case, scott has completed use case
16:06:51 <AZ> zakim, unmute me
16:06:51 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted
16:07:11 <hsbauer> ... peter, antoine both completed use cases
16:07:16 <ivan> q+
#16:07:35 <davidwood> ACTION-1: close
16:07:35 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format notes added
16:07:42 <sandro> close action-1
16:07:42 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format closed
16:07:48 <Zakim> +??P2
16:07:52 <davidwood> close action-8
16:07:52 <trackbot> ACTION-8 Provide a use case for graphs closed
16:07:56 <davidwood> close action-9
16:07:56 <trackbot> ACTION-9 Provide a Revelytix use case for graphs closed
16:07:59 <davidwood> close action-13
16:07:59 <trackbot> ACTION-13 separate ontology named graph use case closed
16:08:02 <davidwood> close action-14
16:08:02 <trackbot> ACTION-14 Provide use cases for graphs in the wiki closed
16:08:14 <ivan> q-
16:08:16 <hsbauer> ... closing 8, 13, 14 and 9
16:08:46 <AZ> yversr must be him
16:08:57 <hsbauer> ... open action 4,5
16:08:59 <davidwood> yvesr: Is action-5 complete?
16:09:06 <yvesr> davidwood: i started on it
16:09:09 <davidwood> ok
16:09:11 <yvesr> davidwood: we still need to polish it
16:09:17 <sandro> s/yvesr:/yvesr,/
16:09:19 <hsbauer> ... action 6, still open.
16:09:35 <mischat> Zakim, unmute me
16:09:35 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
16:09:35 <sandro> mischat?
16:09:41 <yvesr> ivan: yes
16:09:46 <yvesr> ivan: but still a draft
16:09:51 <hsbauer> ... action 7, 11 still open
16:10:02 <mischat> zakim, mute me
16:10:02 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:10:30 <hsbauer> ... what's our procedure for raised issues
16:10:48 <hsbauer> ... will call out issues open them and discuss briefly
16:12:00 <hsbauer> ... is turtle the same as sparkle 1.0 -- issue one.
16:12:04 <webr3> could close the issue by saying "no" and responding with all differences
16:12:25 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:12:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:12:39 <hsbauer> david: issue 2
16:13:14 <sandro> issue-2?
16:13:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- What existing proposal, if any, should be the starting point/default for the JSON design? -- open
16:13:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2
16:13:39 <hsbauer> ... What existing proposal should be the starting point for the JSON issue
16:14:20 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:14:28 <Zakim> +FabGandon
16:14:42 <hsbauer> ... issue 3 also opened
16:15:08 <hsbauer> ... issue of handling action item. after pleading it mark it as pending review.
16:15:44 <ivan> April 13 14 in Amsterdam, at CWI
#16:15:46 <davidwood> agendum: FTF1
16:15:49 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:15:57 <hsbauer> ... F2F solid dates and location. Group can start making travel plans.
16:16:18 <sandro> q+
16:16:22 <hsbauer> ... Place is TWI in Amsterdam 13th and 14th of march.
16:16:28 <ivan> s/TWI/CWI/
16:16:32 <zwu2> april?
16:16:37 <hsbauer> ... Ivan will take an action itme.
16:16:46 <ivan> april
16:16:48 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:16:50 <ivan> s/march/April/
16:16:50 <davidwood> action: Guus to make hotel suggestions for FTF1
16:16:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-09].
16:16:54 <hsbauer> ... correction 13th and 14th of April
16:17:11 <sandro> ack sandro
16:17:30 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:17:30 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
#16:17:39 <davidwood> agendum: Turtle TF
16:17:39 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
16:17:39 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
#16:17:45 <davidwood> agendum: JSON TF
#16:17:52 <davidwood> agendum: Graphs TF
16:17:59 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:18:09 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:18:09 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
16:18:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (16%), Sandro (25%), Ivan (34%)
#16:18:14 <davidwood> agendum: Discuss Pat Hayes' Proposal for Graphs
16:18:14 <zwu2> q
16:18:16 <zwu2> q+
#16:18:20 <davidwood> agendum: AOB
16:18:23 <davidwood> next agendum
16:18:37 <davidwood> ack zwu2
16:18:55 <davidwood> next agendum
16:19:19 <hsbauer> zwu2: who is in charge of setting the meeting place?
16:19:50 <LeeF> I may need to send regrets for the first F2F as it conflicts with the Bio IT conference in Boston, which I am semi-committed too
16:19:54 <hsbauer> david: team contacts set the first f2f out of expediency
16:19:55 <LeeF> s/too/to
16:20:11 <hsbauer> ... 3 next will take input for those
16:20:17 <hsbauer> ... this one is fixed
16:20:22 <gavinc> If I remember right there was no remote presence ability at CWI?
16:20:30 <ivan> q+
16:20:36 <ivan> ack zwu2
16:20:42 <ivan> ack zwu
16:21:05 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:21:06 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:21:07 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:21:19 <hsbauer> I will also not be able to attend the first f2f
16:21:29 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:21:40 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:21:54 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:21:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:22:00 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:22:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (16%)
16:22:11 <sandro> ivan: We will have remote audio for the F2F
16:22:27 <sandro> ivan: we may be able to do some low-quality video (eg skype)
16:22:48 <LeeF> q+
16:22:59 <davidwood> ack LeeF
16:23:30 <hsbauer> Leef: can we start on an agenda for f2f
16:23:30 <davidwood> q?
16:23:49 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:23:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:23:53 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:24:04 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (31%)
16:24:18 <davidwood> next agendum
16:24:31 <ivan> -> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/amsterdam.html is a good page to convince sandro et al to hang around...
16:24:44 <hsbauer> Topic: turtle task force
16:25:24 <hsbauer> david: who will be participating. discussion of mailing list asking for notes on this
16:25:53 <hsbauer> ... important task forces have some level of self organization.
16:26:06 <hsbauer> ... have someone to speak for them.
16:26:09 <AndyS> Step 1 -- people add names to TTL TF page
16:26:35 <davidwood> Input material to Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Inputs_Turtle
16:26:41 <hsbauer> ... most important to settle issue number one and deal with input material
16:27:07 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:27:18 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (19%), Guus_Schreiber (19%), Ivan (10%)
16:27:31 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF_interests
16:27:50 <hsbauer> Guus: can we ask for volunteers for spokespersons
16:27:57 <ivan> q+
16:28:30 <ivan> q-
16:28:53 <hsbauer> ivan: I have contacted dave, no response. Eric T. is a possibility.
16:29:10 <SteveH> s/Eric T./Eric P./
16:29:41 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:29:51 <sandro> hsbauer, that was Nathan
16:29:52 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (74%), AndyS (8%), Ivan (3%)
16:30:09 <sandro> webr3=Nathan, just to confuse you
16:30:30 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:30:30 <AndyS> q+
16:30:43 <hsbauer> afraid I missed the comment can someone summarize
16:30:45 <davidwood> ack andys
16:31:03 <gavinc> Would like to participate in the Turtle TF but don't really feel comfortable being the representative for it?
16:31:21 <hsbauer> andys: json task force has a list of names. Is there a difference between interest and participation.
16:31:45 <hsbauer> david: this may have not been a clear process for differentating.
16:31:54 <manu> q+ to volunteer to represent JSON TF
16:32:11 <hsbauer> Topic: JSON
16:32:22 <davidwood> JSON TF: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON
16:32:26 <hsbauer> david: we have participants, inputs and questions
16:32:52 <hsbauer> manu: I'm interested in acting as spokeperson, but may have a conflict of interest.
16:33:06 <PatHayes> I dont see a conflict of interest, quite the contrary.
16:33:16 <nathan> likewise, no conflict imo
16:33:32 <hsbauer> david: personal opinion, editing spec and coordinating task force are not a conflict of interest
16:33:42 <manu> ACTION: Manu to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work.
16:33:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-09].
16:33:53 <PatHayes> Nice try, but you got lumbered.
16:34:22 <hsbauer> manu: taking an action item to summarize postions on the mailing list for json
16:35:00 <hsbauer> manu: are we discussing task force tech issues here or just summarize issues here.
16:35:11 <hsbauer> david: up to the task force.
16:35:24 <Guus> q+
16:35:29 <manu> q-
16:35:32 <hsbauer> ... clarify participants, coordinators is current issue
16:35:44 <manu> q+ to note that JSON-TF will need a separate call.
16:35:48 <ivan> q+
16:36:14 <davidwood> ack Guus
16:36:16 <hsbauer> manu: json will need a separate call for a time
16:36:18 <manu> q-
16:36:52 <hsbauer> Guus: tech discussions are ok, but will be busy with admin for the first few weeks.
16:37:12 <davidwood> ack manu
16:37:12 <sandro> q?
16:37:17 <nathan> q+ to discuss tracker for TFs
16:37:20 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:37:25 <manu> q?
16:37:49 <davidwood> ack nathan
16:37:49 <Zakim> nathan, you wanted to discuss tracker for TFs
16:38:19 <hsbauer> ivan: setting up a separate call is possible
16:38:20 <manu> +1 to separate tracker entries by product
16:38:26 <AZ> +1 to ivan
16:38:33 <gavinc> +1 and they are already setup: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products
16:38:34 <PatHayes> +1 to ivan
16:38:49 <hsbauer> nathan: can issues be opened by the task force?
16:38:54 <ivan> q-
16:38:57 <sandro> +1 let TF's open issues for themselves
16:39:08 <sandro> q+
16:39:14 <zwu2> I just signed up for the graph tf
16:39:38 <hsbauer> david: this is ok
16:40:15 <sandro> q-
16:40:26 <sandro> topic: Graphs TF
16:40:28 <hsbauer> david: tracker will take care of tracking for all
16:40:39 <hsbauer> Topic: Graph Task Force
16:40:51 <sandro> s/Graph/Graphs/
16:41:13 <sandro> s/topic: Graphs TF//
16:41:20 <hsbauer> david: summarize immediate issues
16:41:40 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:41:44 <manu> I really liked Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text e-mail
16:41:47 <sandro> it's LeeF
16:41:51 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), LeeF (100%)
16:41:54 <Guus> suggest to have a wiki page with terms and their defs, as synthesis of ongoing discussion
16:42:27 <hsbauer> Leef: discussions on serializations, sharing, multiple blank nodes.
16:43:01 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
16:43:02 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:43:13 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (4%), Ivan (4%)
16:43:43 <hsbauer> manu: httpRange-14 bound to come up at some point
16:43:59 <nathan> that's ISSUE-57 on the TAG now, and AWWSW TF covers too (I, nathan, work w/ JAR on that)
16:44:04 <manu> We should coordinate with Jonathan Rees on the W3C TAG and the SPARQL WG
16:44:06 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker re. sparql
16:44:16 <hsbauer> Leef: should liase with sparql working group asap
16:44:41 <sandro> lee: SPARQL WG is moving to Last Call with its notion of Graphs
16:44:55 <AlexHall> what is the specific issue wrt graphs and SPARQL wg?
16:45:00 <hsbauer> who is talking?
16:45:03 <manu> Folks will want to re-read: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ... really good stuff in there.
16:45:25 <PatHayes> Suggest that biggest issue might turn out to be, does a GET get the whole graph or can you find out how big the damn thing is first? That is a real issue, most of them are nomenclature.
16:45:41 <FabGandon> q+ to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:45:50 <davidwood> q?
16:45:54 <manu> PatHayes, HEAD /graph ?
16:46:00 <hsbauer> Leef: if issues related to sparql wg are raised some contact should be made
16:46:01 <davidwood> ack FabGandon
16:46:01 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:46:14 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/#http-get
16:46:24 <nathan> PatHayes, agree, there's also if the refers to both the "subject" and the "graph" - tis a gotcha
16:46:38 <PatHayes> manu, I know , but it feels like a dangerous issue where one WG might close a door that another WG needs to have open.
16:46:43 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:46:55 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:47:07 <cygri> q+
#16:47:19 <AndyS> Also: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_graphstore (from SPARQL 1.1 Update)
16:47:26 <davidwood> +1 to PatHayer
16:47:30 <sandro> FabGandon: I think there's a mismatch about graph vs resource here, when you dereference.
16:47:32 <sandro> q+
16:47:32 <hsbauer> FabGandon: some differences between practices especially around dereferencing.
16:47:36 <davidwood> s/Pathayer/PatHayes/
16:48:01 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker.
16:48:03 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:48:09 <hsbauer> ... what people are doing when defrerencing a uri
16:48:19 <manu> I tend to see that most people get information about the resource they're dereferencing - the graph is the representation about the resource.
16:48:33 <hsbauer> cygri: opmitting what happens when you look up a uri
16:48:39 <hsbauer> thanks ivan
16:48:57 <manu> perhaps, that's naive - but that seems to be the data people are publishing now w/ RDFa.
16:49:01 <nathan> so, follow your nose is a pita we need to clarify soon, especially w/ graphs uris, lod, issue-57 on tag and so forth - not in charter? can we get away with /not/ getting consensus and agrement
16:49:17 <manu> and I really don't like 303 redirects for most use cases :/
16:49:27 <hsbauer> cygri: looks up a uri on a person which leads to a document. one does a redirect and another gives an rdf:desc with is a graph
16:49:52 <PatHayes> Is a graph an IR? A g-box surely is, right?
16:49:54 <hsbauer> ... keep in mind that you shouldn't use the same uri for identifying person and graph.
16:49:59 <davidwood> ack sandro
16:50:01 <nathan> PatHayes, yes exactly
16:50:21 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:50:27 <cygri> hsbauer, it's sandro
16:50:32 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (70%), AndyS (4%), Ivan (20%)
16:50:47 <hsbauer> sandro: graph is used with considerable ambiguity
16:50:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text viewpoint
16:51:14 <hsbauer> ... proposed three terms in practice most often
16:51:32 <davidwood> In my view, a g-box is an IR.
16:51:33 <hsbauer> ... g-box is the container what sparql means
16:51:42 <hsbauer> ... g-snap
16:51:53 <PatHayes> Ahem. That is what the RDF specs say a graph is.
16:51:56 <hsbauer> ... g-text serialization
16:52:17 <manu> q+ to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:31 <LeeF> davidwood, I believe that is the view of the SPARQL RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol as well
16:52:33 <PatHayes> BTW, I entirely agree with sandro's analysis and his ghastly but usable terminology.
16:52:44 <davidwood> q?
16:52:48 <davidwood> ack manu
16:52:48 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:48 <sandro> sandro: explaining http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0092.html
16:53:01 <hsbauer> manu: like sandro's email. clarifies what we are talking about.
16:53:28 <cygri> q+ to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:53:30 <PatHayes> Lets agree that g-snaps are RDF graphs, ie abstract sets.
16:53:33 <hsbauer> ... the terms may change but this is what we are talking about.
16:53:36 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:53:36 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:54:06 <webr3> PatHayes, +1 yes lets, and not a REST "value" at some time - purely an RDF concept, abstract graph, set of triples
16:54:13 <hsbauer> cygri: rdf semantics g-snap? need clarification.
16:54:40 <hsbauer> ... triples or model theoritic interpretation.
16:54:53 <hsbauer> ... do these documents say the same thing.
16:54:57 <hsbauer> thanks
16:55:20 <hsbauer> PatHayes: model theory doesn't depend on the graph syntax.
16:55:40 <sandro> s/model/the model/
16:55:44 <hsbauer> ... can be adapted
16:56:03 <hsbauer> ... we wanted a not to concrete definition
16:56:36 <hsbauer> ... feeling that we didn't want a central model attached to a particular style
16:57:27 <hsbauer> ... g-snaps instances of g-box -- apparently the mathematical version of the g-box
16:57:29 <manu> I thought g-snaps were supposed to be an non-serialized snapshot of a g-box
16:57:46 <hsbauer> ... g-box and g-text fit in the web arch story.
16:57:47 <webr3> manu, yes correct, abstract set of triples
16:58:04 <sandro> q?
16:58:19 <hsbauer> ... g-text is a serialization of the rdf-graph my understanding.
16:58:20 <cygri> thanks
16:58:26 <AZ> totally right, Pat
16:58:44 <mbrunati> .)
16:59:01 <manu> g-box is the REST Information Resource, it's state at a point in time is a g-snap... if you do an HTTP GET on the IR, you get a g-text.
16:59:06 <hsbauer> david: action item for pat to summarize the issue in an email
16:59:41 <manu> so, effectively graphs are just another type of IR - fits really well with Web Architecture.
16:59:48 <davidwood> q?
16:59:49 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation
16:59:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-03-09].
17:00:11 <hsbauer> david: moving on from graph issue.
17:00:18 <webr3> I'll write up action 7 now then <yay>
17:00:25 <hsbauer> Topic: F2f agenda
17:01:03 <hsbauer> david: issues on our timeline
17:01:22 <hsbauer> ... first deliverable due in May.
17:01:27 <AndyS> q+
17:01:33 <ivan> q+
17:01:37 <sandro> q+ to clarify documents
17:01:46 <hsbauer> ... work out tf starting points and organization
17:01:55 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:02:13 <sandro> andy: "Recommendation Set" ?
17:02:27 <hsbauer> andys: what do you mean by the rdf recommendation set?
17:02:39 <hsbauer> david: check the Charter
17:02:51 <davidwood> 4.1 Milestones
17:02:51 <davidwood> This section simply refers to “RDF Recommendation Set” as a collection of W3C Recommendations that together define the new version of RDF. The exact editorial structure of these documents is to be defined by the Working Group
17:02:55 <AndyS> q-
17:03:01 <PatHayes> Guus just vanished
17:03:03 <davidwood> ack ivan
17:04:06 <hsbauer> ivan: we have to clarify. what is the work ahead of us. explict charter work, remaining work from last time.
17:04:43 <PatHayes> There are several bugs in the sematnics document that need to be fixed. The sheer editing will take time, measured in at least weeks maybe months, given the need to check all changes.
17:04:53 <hsbauer> david: I agree. Ivan would you take action item to start the wiki for the f2f
17:05:20 <davidwood> action: Ivan to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content
17:05:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content [on Ivan Herman - due 2011-03-09].
17:05:32 <davidwood> q?
17:05:38 <davidwood> ack Sandro
17:05:38 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to clarify documents
17:06:04 <hsbauer> sandro: no clear notion about how much change needs to be done to existing documents
17:06:15 <hsbauer> ... turtle is a new document
17:06:25 <hsbauer> ... are the graphs a new document
17:06:35 <hsbauer> ... json also a new document
17:06:35 <PatHayes> It seems clear that Concepts will need at least a thorough editing.
17:06:54 <PatHayes> Right.
17:07:26 <AndyS> Don't see how "TriG" fits [if appropriate] but /me assuming that it can fit in TTL if need be.
17:07:38 <hsbauer> david: updates needed, propose continue with existing and add turtle and json
17:07:50 <sandro> sandro: strawman proposal -- revise each existing document, add two more, JSON and Turtle
17:07:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's suggestion on creating new TURTLE and RDFinJSON documents, updating the rest.
17:08:12 <PatHayes> +1 to sandro
17:08:18 <webr3> manu, RDF in JSON or RDFable JSON ? v different
17:08:20 <manu> AndyS - I'd expect TRiG to be shoved into TURTLE.
17:08:25 <AndyS> q+ to ask about N-Triples
17:08:51 <PatHayes> galapagos?
17:08:59 <gavinc> Can it have a cape?
17:09:03 <manu> webr3 - RDFable JSON (not fond of just shoving RDF triples into a JSON format)
17:09:15 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:09:26 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SteveH (1%), davidwood (29%), PatH (22%), Sandro (19%), Ivan (5%)
17:09:29 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:09:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about N-Triples
17:09:37 <sandro> sandro: Maybe the quads-turtle can be superturtle, with some extra features
17:10:08 <hsbauer> AndyS: not precisely defined for n-triples can it be under this banner
17:10:17 <PatHayes> Sounds like we need a 'various triples formats' document. Can this be in the primer?
17:10:46 <gavinc> +1 as N-Triples and N-Quads as a subset of Turtle
17:10:47 <hsbauer> ... hoping n-triples refinement in scope
17:11:09 <hsbauer> sandro: keep n-triples around
17:11:10 <webr3> we need registered media type for n-triples
17:11:12 <gavinc> One mime type would be nice.
17:11:17 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:11:18 <AlexHall> I think every implementation of N-Triples treats it as a subset of Turtle anyways, so I don't see much danger there
17:11:28 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (9%), Sandro (45%), AndyS (46%), Ivan (33%)
17:11:41 <AndyS> <s> <o> . is different in N-Triples and Turtle
17:11:44 <PatHayes> utf-8 vs ascii is NICE??
17:11:45 <SteveH> AlexHall, no, many treat it differently
17:12:01 <gavinc> Yeah, as Turtle is UTF-8 and NTriples is ASCII
17:12:21 <webr3> ascii-7 bit, all /text tree is us-ascii 7-bit ..
17:12:48 <sandro> andy: n-triples doesn't resolve uris, so <s> is a valid URI from its perspective, "s".
17:12:49 <hsbauer> AndyS: n-triples doesn't say anything about resolving uris.
17:13:09 <mischat> s/resolving uris/resolving relative uris/
17:13:10 <hsbauer> david: gavin raised mime-type registration
17:13:20 <davidwood> q?
17:13:28 <hsbauer> ivan: unfinished mime-type reg in turtle
17:13:46 <AndyS> Very keen to not have N-Triples being text/plain
17:14:01 <sandro> +1 andy
17:14:07 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS
17:14:19 <hsbauer> david: closing for business. Adjourning.
17:14:34 <hsbauer> ... reminder to participate in task forces.
17:15:26 <hsbauer> ... scribe for next week Christopher Matthews?
17:15:27 <cmatheus> correct. yes.
17:15:33 <cmatheus> I
17:15:40 <hsbauer> ... matheus
17:15:44 <gavinc> AndyS, yeah: text/plain, application/n-triples, application/x-n-triples, text/n-triples, text/x-n-triples ... ah, NTriples
17:15:48 <cmatheus> I don't have full telephone access today.
17:16:01 <Zakim> -manu
17:16:02 <zwu2> thanks
17:16:03 <PatHayes> Bye.
17:16:04 <ivan> zakim, drop me
17:16:04 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:16:04 <mbrunati> bye
17:16:05 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:16:05 <Zakim> -cygri
17:16:06 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:16:06 <Zakim> -mischat
17:16:06 <AZ> bye
17:16:08 <Zakim> -corby
17:16:10 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:16:11 <Zakim> -PatH
17:16:14 <Zakim> -webr3
17:16:17 <Zakim> -SteveH
17:16:18 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:16:20 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
17:16:22 <Zakim> -gavinc
17:16:26 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:16:28 <Zakim> -mbrunati
17:16:32 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:16:34 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:16:36 <Zakim> -??P2
17:16:40 <Zakim> -FabGandon
17:16:42 <Zakim> -AZ
17:16:44 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
17:17:47 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
17:18:57 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000531
</nowiki></pre>

Chatlog 2011-03-02

Sbauer2 — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:23:15 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc
15:21:26 <LeeF> Hard to disagree with that
15:21:47 <LeeF> I think I will never get used to reading the "@" sigil in JSON-LD correctly, alas
15:22:05 <mischat> manu: in your trig looking examples, in the example "Graph Changes Over Time" for example, you have trailing "'s
15:22:06 <mischat> "2011-02-26T00:00:00+0000"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>
15:22:10 <mischat> "
15:22:43 <hsbauer> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:22:44 <manu> @LeeF yeah - we could change it to something else? Every time I've changed the key that establishes the subject, somebody complains about it :P
15:23:02 <hsbauer> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:23:20 <hsbauer> Meeting: RDF WG Teleconference
15:24:14 <LeeF> oh i wasn't complaining, manu, i'm just not used to it
15:24:17 <LeeF> I think it's kind of clever
15:25:28 <hsbauer> is david wood chair today?
15:25:49 <manu> LeeF, it's annoying at first, and then you get used to it. '@' was supposed to symbolize - "This object can be found at..." or "This object describes the data at..." or "This object exists at..."
15:29:12 <hsbauer> Chair: David Wood
15:29:49 <hsbauer> zakim, this will be SW_RDFWG
15:29:49 <Zakim> ok, hsbauer; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
15:33:18 <mischat> um, turtle does allow "." before "]" when writing predicateObject lists, as per rule 7 in the turtle submission thing. The correct (turtle'd version of your example) http://pastebin.com/K7D9LQ36 (obviously this is less the graph bit you would get in trig).
15:42:48 <mischat> ok may do that afterwards :)
15:46:36 <webr3> webr3 has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:38 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:51:41 <gavinc> gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:45 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
15:52:49 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:52:59 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:53:57 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:16 <PatHayes> PatHayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:32 <Zakim> +davidwood
15:54:44 <Zakim> +FabGandon
15:55:00 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:55:12 <gavinc> zakim, mute me
15:55:12 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
15:56:52 <davidwood> Meeting: RDF Working Group
15:56:57 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
15:57:28 <Zakim> +PatH
15:57:33 <manu> zakim, code?
15:57:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu
15:57:44 <Zakim> +??P9
15:57:47 <manu> zakim, I am ??P9
15:57:47 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:57:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:57:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:57:55 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:57:58 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:58:12 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:58:12 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:58:23 <davidwood> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:58:32 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:35 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:40 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
15:58:44 <Zakim> +??P10
15:58:56 <mischat> zakim, P10 is me
15:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
15:59:02 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:59:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:07 <mischat> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:59:07 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:59:10 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:59:10 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:59:22 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:25 <Zakim> +??P12
15:59:32 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:59:33 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
15:59:33 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:59:49 <Zakim> +corby
16:00:03 <PatHayes> Im not hearing the breathing.
16:00:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:07 <Zakim> +Alex_Hall
16:00:11 <webr3> zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
16:00:11 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:00:12 <Zakim> +AZ
16:00:18 <webr3> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:00:18 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
16:00:28 <AlexHall> zakim, Alex_Hall is me
16:00:28 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
16:00:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:00:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:00:52 <Zakim> ... AZ
16:00:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH, danbri, davidwood, yvesr,
16:00:57 <Zakim> ... manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:00:58 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
16:01:14 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:26 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:30 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:01:51 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:01:51 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
16:02:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:27 <Zakim> +cygri
16:02:27 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:33 <danbri> regrets from me; at mini-NoTube F2F in Bristol (although not as I feared travelling so will follow in IRC)
16:02:51 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here
16:02:51 <Zakim> mbrunati, you need to end that query with '?'
16:03:05 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here?
16:03:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:08 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, [IPcaller], cygri
16:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see cmatheus, Guus, SteveH__, AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH,
16:03:15 <Zakim> ... danbri, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:03:20 <sandro> regrets: danbri, souri
16:03:24 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:03:24 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
16:03:26 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:03:36 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
16:03:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:40 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, mbrunati, cygri
16:03:45 <SteveH__> Zakim, what's the code?
16:03:45 <AZ> AZ is for Antoine Zimmermann
16:03:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), SteveH__
16:03:58 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:03:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:04:13 <hsbauer> regrets: danbri, yvesr, nickh
16:04:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:21 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:04:21 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
16:04:28 <davidwood> Agenda is at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-02 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:59 <pfps> minutes look fine to me
16:05:06 <AndyS> Regrets for last time: AndyS
16:05:07 <hsbauer> david: proposes to accept last weeks minutes
16:05:12 <ivan> +1
16:05:15 <FabGandon> +1
16:05:18 <AZ> +1
16:05:23 <mbrunati> +1
16:05:26 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes
16:05:41 <hsbauer> david: action item review
16:05:43 <davidwood> Action items pending review: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:05:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - items
16:05:47 <PatHayes> ignore this, testing.
16:06:04 <sandro> manu, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:06:47 <hsbauer> ... pending review alex has completed use case, scott has completed use case
16:06:51 <AZ> zakim, unmute me
16:06:51 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted
16:07:11 <hsbauer> ... peter, antoine both completed use cases
16:07:16 <ivan> q+
#16:07:35 <davidwood> ACTION-1: close
16:07:35 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format notes added
16:07:42 <sandro> close action-1
16:07:42 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format closed
16:07:48 <Zakim> +??P2
16:07:52 <davidwood> close action-8
16:07:52 <trackbot> ACTION-8 Provide a use case for graphs closed
16:07:56 <davidwood> close action-9
16:07:56 <trackbot> ACTION-9 Provide a Revelytix use case for graphs closed
16:07:59 <davidwood> close action-13
16:07:59 <trackbot> ACTION-13 separate ontology named graph use case closed
16:08:02 <davidwood> close action-14
16:08:02 <trackbot> ACTION-14 Provide use cases for graphs in the wiki closed
16:08:14 <ivan> q-
16:08:16 <hsbauer> ... closing 8, 13, 14 and 9
16:08:46 <AZ> yversr must be him
16:08:57 <hsbauer> ... open action 4,5
16:08:59 <davidwood> yvesr: Is action-5 complete?
16:09:06 <yvesr> davidwood: i started on it
16:09:09 <davidwood> ok
16:09:11 <yvesr> davidwood: we still need to polish it
16:09:17 <sandro> s/yvesr:/yvesr,/
16:09:19 <hsbauer> ... action 6, still open.
16:09:35 <mischat> Zakim, unmute me
16:09:35 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
16:09:35 <sandro> mischat?
16:09:41 <yvesr> ivan: yes
16:09:46 <yvesr> ivan: but still a draft
16:09:51 <hsbauer> ... action 7, 11 still open
16:10:02 <mischat> zakim, mute me
16:10:02 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:10:30 <hsbauer> ... what's our procedure for raised issues
16:10:48 <hsbauer> ... will call out issues open them and discuss briefly
16:12:00 <hsbauer> ... is turtle the same as sparkle 1.0 -- issue one.
16:12:04 <webr3> could close the issue by saying "no" and responding with all differences
16:12:25 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:12:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:12:39 <hsbauer> david: issue 2
16:13:14 <sandro> issue-2?
16:13:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- What existing proposal, if any, should be the starting point/default for the JSON design? -- open
16:13:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2
16:13:39 <hsbauer> ... What existing proposal should be the starting point for the JSON issue
16:14:20 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:14:28 <Zakim> +FabGandon
16:14:42 <hsbauer> ... issue 3 also opened
16:15:08 <hsbauer> ... issue of handling action item. after pleading it mark it as pending review.
16:15:44 <ivan> April 13 14 in Amsterdam, at CWI
#16:15:46 <davidwood> agendum: FTF1
16:15:49 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:15:57 <hsbauer> ... F2F solid dates and location. Group can start making travel plans.
16:16:18 <sandro> q+
16:16:22 <hsbauer> ... Place is TWI in Amsterdam 13th and 14th of march.
16:16:28 <ivan> s/TWI/CWI/
16:16:32 <zwu2> april?
16:16:37 <hsbauer> ... Ivan will take an action itme.
16:16:46 <ivan> april
16:16:48 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:16:50 <ivan> s/march/April/
16:16:50 <davidwood> action: Guus to make hotel suggestions for FTF1
16:16:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-09].
16:16:54 <hsbauer> ... correction 13th and 14th of April
16:17:11 <sandro> ack sandro
16:17:30 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:17:30 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
#16:17:39 <davidwood> agendum: Turtle TF
16:17:39 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
16:17:39 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
#16:17:45 <davidwood> agendum: JSON TF
#16:17:52 <davidwood> agendum: Graphs TF
16:17:59 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:18:09 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:18:09 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
16:18:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (16%), Sandro (25%), Ivan (34%)
#16:18:14 <davidwood> agendum: Discuss Pat Hayes' Proposal for Graphs
16:18:14 <zwu2> q
16:18:16 <zwu2> q+
#16:18:20 <davidwood> agendum: AOB
16:18:23 <davidwood> next agendum
16:18:37 <davidwood> ack zwu2
16:18:55 <davidwood> next agendum
16:19:19 <hsbauer> zwu2: who is in charge of setting the meeting place?
16:19:50 <LeeF> I may need to send regrets for the first F2F as it conflicts with the Bio IT conference in Boston, which I am semi-committed too
16:19:54 <hsbauer> david: team contacts set the first f2f out of expediency
16:19:55 <LeeF> s/too/to
16:20:11 <hsbauer> ... 3 next will take input for those
16:20:17 <hsbauer> ... this one is fixed
16:20:22 <gavinc> If I remember right there was no remote presence ability at CWI?
16:20:30 <ivan> q+
16:20:36 <ivan> ack zwu2
16:20:42 <ivan> ack zwu
16:21:05 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:21:06 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:21:07 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:21:19 <hsbauer> I will also not be able to attend the first f2f
16:21:29 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:21:40 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:21:54 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:21:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:22:00 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:22:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (16%)
16:22:11 <sandro> ivan: We will have remote audio for the F2F
16:22:27 <sandro> ivan: we may be able to do some low-quality video (eg skype)
16:22:48 <LeeF> q+
16:22:59 <davidwood> ack LeeF
16:23:30 <hsbauer> Leef: can we start on an agenda for f2f
16:23:30 <davidwood> q?
16:23:49 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:23:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:23:53 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:24:04 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (31%)
16:24:18 <davidwood> next agendum
16:24:31 <ivan> -> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/amsterdam.html is a good page to convince sandro et al to hang around...
16:24:44 <hsbauer> Topic: turtle task force
16:25:24 <hsbauer> david: who will be participating. discussion of mailing list asking for notes on this
16:25:53 <hsbauer> ... important task forces have some level of self organization.
16:26:06 <hsbauer> ... have someone to speak for them.
16:26:09 <AndyS> Step 1 -- people add names to TTL TF page
16:26:35 <davidwood> Input material to Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Inputs_Turtle
16:26:41 <hsbauer> ... most important to settle issue number one and deal with input material
16:27:07 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:27:18 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (19%), Guus_Schreiber (19%), Ivan (10%)
16:27:31 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF_interests
16:27:50 <hsbauer> Guus: can we ask for volunteers for spokespersons
16:27:57 <ivan> q+
16:28:30 <ivan> q-
16:28:53 <hsbauer> ivan: I have contacted dave, no response. Eric T. is a possibility.
16:29:10 <SteveH> s/Eric T./Eric P./
16:29:41 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:29:51 <sandro> hsbauer, that was Nathan
16:29:52 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (74%), AndyS (8%), Ivan (3%)
16:30:09 <sandro> webr3=Nathan, just to confuse you
16:30:30 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:30:30 <AndyS> q+
16:30:43 <hsbauer> afraid I missed the comment can someone summarize
16:30:45 <davidwood> ack andys
16:31:03 <gavinc> Would like to participate in the Turtle TF but don't really feel comfortable being the representative for it?
16:31:21 <hsbauer> andys: json task force has a list of names. Is there a difference between interest and participation.
16:31:45 <hsbauer> david: this may have not been a clear process for differentating.
16:31:54 <manu> q+ to volunteer to represent JSON TF
16:32:11 <hsbauer> Topic: JSON
16:32:22 <davidwood> JSON TF: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON
16:32:26 <hsbauer> david: we have participants, inputs and questions
16:32:52 <hsbauer> manu: I'm interested in acting as spokeperson, but may have a conflict of interest.
16:33:06 <PatHayes> I dont see a conflict of interest, quite the contrary.
16:33:16 <nathan> likewise, no conflict imo
16:33:32 <hsbauer> david: personal opinion, editing spec and coordinating task force are not a conflict of interest
16:33:42 <manu> ACTION: Manu to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work.
16:33:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-09].
16:33:53 <PatHayes> Nice try, but you got lumbered.
16:34:22 <hsbauer> manu: taking an action item to summarize postions on the mailing list for json
16:35:00 <hsbauer> manu: are we discussing task force tech issues here or just summarize issues here.
16:35:11 <hsbauer> david: up to the task force.
16:35:24 <Guus> q+
16:35:29 <manu> q-
16:35:32 <hsbauer> ... clarify participants, coordinators is current issue
16:35:44 <manu> q+ to note that JSON-TF will need a separate call.
16:35:48 <ivan> q+
16:36:14 <davidwood> ack Guus
16:36:16 <hsbauer> manu: json will need a separate call for a time
16:36:18 <manu> q-
16:36:52 <hsbauer> Guus: tech discussions are ok, but will be busy with admin for the first few weeks.
16:37:12 <davidwood> ack manu
16:37:12 <sandro> q?
16:37:17 <nathan> q+ to discuss tracker for TFs
16:37:20 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:37:25 <manu> q?
16:37:49 <davidwood> ack nathan
16:37:49 <Zakim> nathan, you wanted to discuss tracker for TFs
16:38:19 <hsbauer> ivan: setting up a separate call is possible
16:38:20 <manu> +1 to separate tracker entries by product
16:38:26 <AZ> +1 to ivan
16:38:33 <gavinc> +1 and they are already setup: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products
16:38:34 <PatHayes> +1 to ivan
16:38:49 <hsbauer> nathan: can issues be opened by the task force?
16:38:54 <ivan> q-
16:38:57 <sandro> +1 let TF's open issues for themselves
16:39:08 <sandro> q+
16:39:14 <zwu2> I just signed up for the graph tf
16:39:38 <hsbauer> david: this is ok
16:40:15 <sandro> q-
16:40:26 <sandro> topic: Graphs TF
16:40:28 <hsbauer> david: tracker will take care of tracking for all
16:40:39 <hsbauer> Topic: Graph Task Force
16:40:51 <sandro> s/Graph/Graphs/
16:41:13 <sandro> s/topic: Graphs TF//
16:41:20 <hsbauer> david: summarize immediate issues
16:41:40 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:41:44 <manu> I really liked Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text e-mail
16:41:47 <sandro> it's LeeF
16:41:51 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), LeeF (100%)
16:41:54 <Guus> suggest to have a wiki page with terms and their defs, as synthesis of ongoing discussion
16:42:27 <hsbauer> Leef: discussions on serializations, sharing, multiple blank nodes.
16:43:01 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
16:43:02 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:43:13 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (4%), Ivan (4%)
16:43:43 <hsbauer> manu: httpRange-14 bound to come up at some point
16:43:59 <nathan> that's ISSUE-57 on the TAG now, and AWWSW TF covers too (I, nathan, work w/ JAR on that)
16:44:04 <manu> We should coordinate with Jonathan Rees on the W3C TAG and the SPARQL WG
16:44:06 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker re. sparql
16:44:16 <hsbauer> Leef: should liase with sparql working group asap
16:44:41 <sandro> lee: SPARQL WG is moving to Last Call with its notion of Graphs
16:44:55 <AlexHall> what is the specific issue wrt graphs and SPARQL wg?
16:45:00 <hsbauer> who is talking?
16:45:03 <manu> Folks will want to re-read: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ... really good stuff in there.
16:45:25 <PatHayes> Suggest that biggest issue might turn out to be, does a GET get the whole graph or can you find out how big the damn thing is first? That is a real issue, most of them are nomenclature.
16:45:41 <FabGandon> q+ to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:45:50 <davidwood> q?
16:45:54 <manu> PatHayes, HEAD /graph ?
16:46:00 <hsbauer> Leef: if issues related to sparql wg are raised some contact should be made
16:46:01 <davidwood> ack FabGandon
16:46:01 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:46:14 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/#http-get
16:46:24 <nathan> PatHayes, agree, there's also if the refers to both the "subject" and the "graph" - tis a gotcha
16:46:38 <PatHayes> manu, I know , but it feels like a dangerous issue where one WG might close a door that another WG needs to have open.
16:46:43 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:46:55 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:47:07 <cygri> q+
16:47:19 <AndyS> Also: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_graphstore (from SPARQL 1.1 Update)
16:47:26 <davidwood> +1 to PatHayer
16:47:30 <sandro> FabGandon: I think there's a mismatch about graph vs resource here, when you dereference.
16:47:32 <sandro> q+
16:47:32 <hsbauer> FabGandon: some differences between practices especially around dereferencing.
16:47:36 <davidwood> s/Pathayer/PatHayes/
16:48:01 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker.
16:48:03 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:48:09 <hsbauer> ... what people are doing when defrerencing a uri
16:48:19 <manu> I tend to see that most people get information about the resource they're dereferencing - the graph is the representation about the resource.
16:48:33 <hsbauer> cygri: opmitting what happens when you look up a uri
16:48:39 <hsbauer> thanks ivan
16:48:57 <manu> perhaps, that's naive - but that seems to be the data people are publishing now w/ RDFa.
16:49:01 <nathan> so, follow your nose is a pita we need to clarify soon, especially w/ graphs uris, lod, issue-57 on tag and so forth - not in charter? can we get away with /not/ getting consensus and agrement
16:49:17 <manu> and I really don't like 303 redirects for most use cases :/
16:49:27 <hsbauer> cygri: looks up a uri on a person which leads to a document. one does a redirect and another gives an rdf:desc with is a graph
16:49:52 <PatHayes> Is a graph an IR? A g-box surely is, right?
16:49:54 <hsbauer> ... keep in mind that you shouldn't use the same uri for identifying person and graph.
16:49:59 <davidwood> ack sandro
16:50:01 <nathan> PatHayes, yes exactly
16:50:21 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:50:27 <cygri> hsbauer, it's sandro
16:50:32 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (70%), AndyS (4%), Ivan (20%)
16:50:47 <hsbauer> sandro: graph is used with considerable ambiguity
16:50:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text viewpoint
16:51:14 <hsbauer> ... proposed three terms in practice most often
16:51:32 <davidwood> In my view, a g-box is an IR.
16:51:33 <hsbauer> ... g-box is the container what sparql means
16:51:42 <hsbauer> ... g-snap
16:51:53 <PatHayes> Ahem. That is what the RDF specs say a graph is.
16:51:56 <hsbauer> ... g-text serialization
16:52:17 <manu> q+ to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:31 <LeeF> davidwood, I believe that is the view of the SPARQL RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol as well
16:52:33 <PatHayes> BTW, I entirely agree with sandro's analysis and his ghastly but usable terminology.
16:52:44 <davidwood> q?
16:52:48 <davidwood> ack manu
16:52:48 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:48 <sandro> sandro: explaining http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0092.html
16:53:01 <hsbauer> manu: like sandro's email. clarifies what we are talking about.
16:53:28 <cygri> q+ to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:53:30 <PatHayes> Lets agree that g-snaps are RDF graphs, ie abstract sets.
16:53:33 <hsbauer> ... the terms may change but this is what we are talking about.
16:53:36 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:53:36 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:54:06 <webr3> PatHayes, +1 yes lets, and not a REST "value" at some time - purely an RDF concept, abstract graph, set of triples
16:54:13 <hsbauer> cygri: rdf semantics g-snap? need clarification.
16:54:40 <hsbauer> ... triples or model theoritic interpretation.
16:54:53 <hsbauer> ... do these documents say the same thing.
16:54:57 <hsbauer> thanks
16:55:20 <hsbauer> PatHayes: model theory doesn't depend on the graph syntax.
16:55:40 <sandro> s/model/the model/
16:55:44 <hsbauer> ... can be adapted
16:56:03 <hsbauer> ... we wanted a not to concrete definition
16:56:36 <hsbauer> ... feeling that we didn't want a central model attached to a particular style
16:57:27 <hsbauer> ... g-snaps instances of g-box -- apparently the mathematical version of the g-box
16:57:29 <manu> I thought g-snaps were supposed to be an non-serialized snapshot of a g-box
16:57:46 <hsbauer> ... g-box and g-text fit in the web arch story.
16:57:47 <webr3> manu, yes correct, abstract set of triples
16:58:04 <sandro> q?
16:58:19 <hsbauer> ... g-text is a serialization of the rdf-graph my understanding.
16:58:20 <cygri> thanks
16:58:26 <AZ> totally right, Pat
16:58:44 <mbrunati> .)
16:59:01 <manu> g-box is the REST Information Resource, it's state at a point in time is a g-snap... if you do an HTTP GET on the IR, you get a g-text.
16:59:06 <hsbauer> david: action item for pat to summarize the issue in an email
16:59:41 <manu> so, effectively graphs are just another type of IR - fits really well with Web Architecture.
16:59:48 <davidwood> q?
16:59:49 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation
16:59:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-03-09].
17:00:11 <hsbauer> david: moving on from graph issue.
17:00:18 <webr3> I'll write up action 7 now then <yay>
17:00:25 <hsbauer> Topic: F2f agenda
17:01:03 <hsbauer> david: issues on our timeline
17:01:22 <hsbauer> ... first deliverable due in May.
17:01:27 <AndyS> q+
17:01:33 <ivan> q+
17:01:37 <sandro> q+ to clarify documents
17:01:46 <hsbauer> ... work out tf starting points and organization
17:01:55 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:02:13 <sandro> andy: "Recommendation Set" ?
17:02:27 <hsbauer> andys: what do you mean by the rdf recommendation set?
17:02:39 <hsbauer> david: check the Charter
17:02:51 <davidwood> 4.1 Milestones
17:02:51 <davidwood> This section simply refers to “RDF Recommendation Set” as a collection of W3C Recommendations that together define the new version of RDF. The exact editorial structure of these documents is to be defined by the Working Group
17:02:55 <AndyS> q-
17:03:01 <PatHayes> Guus just vanished
17:03:03 <davidwood> ack ivan
17:04:06 <hsbauer> ivan: we have to clarify. what is the work ahead of us. explict charter work, remaining work from last time.
17:04:43 <PatHayes> There are several bugs in the sematnics document that need to be fixed. The sheer editing will take time, measured in at least weeks maybe months, given the need to check all changes.
17:04:53 <hsbauer> david: I agree. Ivan would you take action item to start the wiki for the f2f
17:05:20 <davidwood> action: Ivan to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content
17:05:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content [on Ivan Herman - due 2011-03-09].
17:05:32 <davidwood> q?
17:05:38 <davidwood> ack Sandro
17:05:38 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to clarify documents
17:06:04 <hsbauer> sandro: no clear notion about how much change needs to be done to existing documents
17:06:15 <hsbauer> ... turtle is a new document
17:06:25 <hsbauer> ... are the graphs a new document
17:06:35 <hsbauer> ... json also a new document
17:06:35 <PatHayes> It seems clear that Concepts will need at least a thorough editing.
17:06:54 <PatHayes> Right.
17:07:26 <AndyS> Don't see how "TriG" fits [if appropriate] but /me assuming that it can fit in TTL if need be.
17:07:38 <hsbauer> david: updates needed, propose continue with existing and add turtle and json
17:07:50 <sandro> sandro: strawman proposal -- revise each existing document, add two more, JSON and Turtle
17:07:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's suggestion on creating new TURTLE and RDFinJSON documents, updating the rest.
17:08:12 <PatHayes> +1 to sandro
17:08:18 <webr3> manu, RDF in JSON or RDFable JSON ? v different
17:08:20 <manu> AndyS - I'd expect TRiG to be shoved into TURTLE.
17:08:25 <AndyS> q+ to ask about N-Triples
17:08:51 <PatHayes> galapagos?
17:08:59 <gavinc> Can it have a cape?
17:09:03 <manu> webr3 - RDFable JSON (not fond of just shoving RDF triples into a JSON format)
17:09:15 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:09:26 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SteveH (1%), davidwood (29%), PatH (22%), Sandro (19%), Ivan (5%)
17:09:29 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:09:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about N-Triples
17:09:37 <sandro> sandro: Maybe the quads-turtle can be superturtle, with some extra features
17:10:08 <hsbauer> AndyS: not precisely defined for n-triples can it be under this banner
17:10:17 <PatHayes> Sounds like we need a 'various triples formats' document. Can this be in the primer?
17:10:46 <gavinc> +1 as N-Triples and N-Quads as a subset of Turtle
17:10:47 <hsbauer> ... hoping n-triples refinement in scope
17:11:09 <hsbauer> sandro: keep n-triples around
17:11:10 <webr3> we need registered media type for n-triples
17:11:12 <gavinc> One mime type would be nice.
17:11:17 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:11:18 <AlexHall> I think every implementation of N-Triples treats it as a subset of Turtle anyways, so I don't see much danger there
17:11:28 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (9%), Sandro (45%), AndyS (46%), Ivan (33%)
17:11:41 <AndyS> <s> <o> . is different in N-Triples and Turtle
17:11:44 <PatHayes> utf-8 vs ascii is NICE??
17:11:45 <SteveH> AlexHall, no, many treat it differently
17:12:01 <gavinc> Yeah, as Turtle is UTF-8 and NTriples is ASCII
17:12:21 <webr3> ascii-7 bit, all /text tree is us-ascii 7-bit ..
17:12:48 <sandro> andy: n-triples doesn't resolve uris, so <s> is a valid URI from its perspective, "s".
17:12:49 <hsbauer> AndyS: n-triples doesn't say anything about resolving uris.
17:13:09 <mischat> s/resolving uris/resolving relative uris/
17:13:10 <hsbauer> david: gavin raised mime-type registration
17:13:20 <davidwood> q?
17:13:28 <hsbauer> ivan: unfinished mime-type reg in turtle
17:13:46 <AndyS> Very keen to not have N-Triples being text/plain
17:14:01 <sandro> +1 andy
17:14:07 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS
17:14:19 <hsbauer> david: closing for business. Adjourning.
17:14:34 <hsbauer> ... reminder to participate in task forces.
17:15:26 <hsbauer> ... scribe for next week Christopher Matthews?
17:15:27 <cmatheus> correct. yes.
17:15:33 <cmatheus> I
17:15:40 <hsbauer> ... matheus
17:15:44 <gavinc> AndyS, yeah: text/plain, application/n-triples, application/x-n-triples, text/n-triples, text/x-n-triples ... ah, NTriples
17:15:48 <cmatheus> I don't have full telephone access today.
17:16:01 <Zakim> -manu
17:16:02 <zwu2> thanks
17:16:03 <PatHayes> Bye.
17:16:04 <ivan> zakim, drop me
17:16:04 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:16:04 <mbrunati> bye
17:16:05 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:16:05 <Zakim> -cygri
17:16:06 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:16:06 <Zakim> -mischat
17:16:06 <AZ> bye
17:16:08 <Zakim> -corby
17:16:10 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:16:11 <Zakim> -PatH
17:16:14 <Zakim> -webr3
17:16:17 <Zakim> -SteveH
17:16:18 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:16:20 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
17:16:22 <Zakim> -gavinc
17:16:26 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:16:28 <Zakim> -mbrunati
17:16:32 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:16:34 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:16:36 <Zakim> -??P2
17:16:40 <Zakim> -FabGandon
17:16:42 <Zakim> -AZ
17:16:44 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
17:17:47 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
17:18:57 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
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Chatlog 2011-03-02

Sbauer2 — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:20:12 GMT

Sbauer2:

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<pre><nowiki>
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc
15:21:26 <LeeF> Hard to disagree with that
15:21:47 <LeeF> I think I will never get used to reading the "@" sigil in JSON-LD correctly, alas
15:22:05 <mischat> manu: in your trig looking examples, in the example "Graph Changes Over Time" for example, you have trailing "'s
15:22:06 <mischat> "2011-02-26T00:00:00+0000"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>
15:22:10 <mischat> "
15:22:43 <hsbauer> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:22:44 <manu> @LeeF yeah - we could change it to something else? Every time I've changed the key that establishes the subject, somebody complains about it :P
15:23:02 <hsbauer> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:23:20 <hsbauer> Meeting: RDF WG Teleconference
15:24:14 <LeeF> oh i wasn't complaining, manu, i'm just not used to it
15:24:17 <LeeF> I think it's kind of clever
15:25:28 <hsbauer> is david wood chair today?
15:25:49 <manu> LeeF, it's annoying at first, and then you get used to it. '@' was supposed to symbolize - "This object can be found at..." or "This object describes the data at..." or "This object exists at..."
15:29:12 <hsbauer> Chair: David Wood
15:29:49 <hsbauer> zakim, this will be SW_RDFWG
15:29:49 <Zakim> ok, hsbauer; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
15:33:18 <mischat> um, turtle does allow "." before "]" when writing predicateObject lists, as per rule 7 in the turtle submission thing. The correct (turtle'd version of your example) http://pastebin.com/K7D9LQ36 (obviously this is less the graph bit you would get in trig).
15:42:48 <mischat> ok may do that afterwards :)
15:46:36 <webr3> webr3 has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:38 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:51:41 <gavinc> gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:45 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
15:52:49 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:52:59 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:53:57 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:16 <PatHayes> PatHayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:32 <Zakim> +davidwood
15:54:44 <Zakim> +FabGandon
15:55:00 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:55:12 <gavinc> zakim, mute me
15:55:12 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
15:56:52 <davidwood> Meeting: RDF Working Group
15:56:57 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
15:57:28 <Zakim> +PatH
15:57:33 <manu> zakim, code?
15:57:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu
15:57:44 <Zakim> +??P9
15:57:47 <manu> zakim, I am ??P9
15:57:47 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:57:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:57:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:57:55 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:57:58 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:58:12 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:58:12 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:58:23 <davidwood> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:58:32 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:35 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:40 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
15:58:44 <Zakim> +??P10
15:58:56 <mischat> zakim, P10 is me
15:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
15:59:02 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:59:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:07 <mischat> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:59:07 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:59:10 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:59:10 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:59:22 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:25 <Zakim> +??P12
15:59:32 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:59:33 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
15:59:33 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:59:49 <Zakim> +corby
16:00:03 <PatHayes> Im not hearing the breathing.
16:00:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:07 <Zakim> +Alex_Hall
16:00:11 <webr3> zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
16:00:11 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:00:12 <Zakim> +AZ
16:00:18 <webr3> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:00:18 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
16:00:28 <AlexHall> zakim, Alex_Hall is me
16:00:28 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
16:00:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:00:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:00:52 <Zakim> ... AZ
16:00:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH, danbri, davidwood, yvesr,
16:00:57 <Zakim> ... manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:00:58 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
16:01:14 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:26 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:30 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:01:51 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:01:51 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
16:02:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:27 <Zakim> +cygri
16:02:27 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:33 <danbri> regrets from me; at mini-NoTube F2F in Bristol (although not as I feared travelling so will follow in IRC)
16:02:51 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here
16:02:51 <Zakim> mbrunati, you need to end that query with '?'
16:03:05 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here?
16:03:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:08 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, [IPcaller], cygri
16:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see cmatheus, Guus, SteveH__, AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH,
16:03:15 <Zakim> ... danbri, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:03:20 <sandro> regrets: danbri, souri
16:03:24 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:03:24 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
16:03:26 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:03:36 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
16:03:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:40 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, mbrunati, cygri
16:03:45 <SteveH__> Zakim, what's the code?
16:03:45 <AZ> AZ is for Antoine Zimmermann
16:03:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), SteveH__
16:03:58 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:03:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:04:13 <hsbauer> regrets: danbri, yvesr, nickh
16:04:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:21 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:04:21 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
16:04:28 <davidwood> Agenda is at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-02 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:59 <pfps> minutes look fine to me
16:05:06 <AndyS> Regrets for last time: AndyS
16:05:07 <hsbauer> david: proposes to accept last weeks minutes
16:05:12 <ivan> +1
16:05:15 <FabGandon> +1
16:05:18 <AZ> +1
16:05:23 <mbrunati> +1
16:05:26 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes
16:05:41 <hsbauer> david: action item review
16:05:43 <davidwood> Action items pending review: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:05:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - items
16:05:47 <PatHayes> ignore this, testing.
16:06:04 <sandro> manu, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:06:47 <hsbauer> ... pending review alex has completed use case, scott has completed use case
16:06:51 <AZ> zakim, unmute me
16:06:51 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted
16:07:11 <hsbauer> ... peter, antoine both completed use cases
16:07:16 <ivan> q+
16:07:35 <davidwood> ACTION-1: close
16:07:35 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format notes added
16:07:42 <sandro> close action-1
16:07:42 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format closed
16:07:48 <Zakim> +??P2
16:07:52 <davidwood> close action-8
16:07:52 <trackbot> ACTION-8 Provide a use case for graphs closed
16:07:56 <davidwood> close action-9
16:07:56 <trackbot> ACTION-9 Provide a Revelytix use case for graphs closed
16:07:59 <davidwood> close action-13
16:07:59 <trackbot> ACTION-13 separate ontology named graph use case closed
16:08:02 <davidwood> close action-14
16:08:02 <trackbot> ACTION-14 Provide use cases for graphs in the wiki closed
16:08:14 <ivan> q-
16:08:16 <hsbauer> ... closing 8, 13, 14 and 9
16:08:46 <AZ> yversr must be him
16:08:57 <hsbauer> ... open action 4,5
16:08:59 <davidwood> yvesr: Is action-5 complete?
16:09:06 <yvesr> davidwood: i started on it
16:09:09 <davidwood> ok
16:09:11 <yvesr> davidwood: we still need to polish it
16:09:17 <sandro> s/yvesr:/yvesr,/
16:09:19 <hsbauer> ... action 6, still open.
16:09:35 <mischat> Zakim, unmute me
16:09:35 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
16:09:35 <sandro> mischat?
16:09:41 <yvesr> ivan: yes
16:09:46 <yvesr> ivan: but still a draft
16:09:51 <hsbauer> ... action 7, 11 still open
16:10:02 <mischat> zakim, mute me
16:10:02 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:10:30 <hsbauer> ... what's our procedure for raised issues
16:10:48 <hsbauer> ... will call out issues open them and discuss briefly
16:12:00 <hsbauer> ... is turtle the same as sparkle 1.0 -- issue one.
16:12:04 <webr3> could close the issue by saying "no" and responding with all differences
16:12:25 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:12:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:12:39 <hsbauer> david: issue 2
16:13:14 <sandro> issue-2?
16:13:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- What existing proposal, if any, should be the starting point/default for the JSON design? -- open
16:13:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2
16:13:39 <hsbauer> ... What existing proposal should be the starting point for the JSON issue
16:14:20 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:14:28 <Zakim> +FabGandon
16:14:42 <hsbauer> ... issue 3 also opened
16:15:08 <hsbauer> ... issue of handling action item. after pleading it mark it as pending review.
16:15:44 <ivan> April 13 14 in Amsterdam, at CWI
#16:15:46 <davidwood> agendum: FTF1
16:15:49 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:15:57 <hsbauer> ... F2F solid dates and location. Group can start making travel plans.
16:16:18 <sandro> q+
16:16:22 <hsbauer> ... Place is TWI in Amsterdam 13th and 14th of march.
16:16:28 <ivan> s/TWI/CWI/
16:16:32 <zwu2> april?
16:16:37 <hsbauer> ... Ivan will take an action itme.
16:16:46 <ivan> april
16:16:48 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:16:50 <ivan> s/march/April/
16:16:50 <davidwood> action: Guus to make hotel suggestions for FTF1
16:16:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-09].
16:16:54 <hsbauer> ... correction 13th and 14th of April
16:17:11 <sandro> ack sandro
16:17:30 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:17:30 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
#16:17:39 <davidwood> agendum: Turtle TF
16:17:39 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
16:17:39 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
#16:17:45 <davidwood> agendum: JSON TF
#16:17:52 <davidwood> agendum: Graphs TF
16:17:59 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:18:09 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:18:09 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
16:18:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (16%), Sandro (25%), Ivan (34%)
#16:18:14 <davidwood> agendum: Discuss Pat Hayes' Proposal for Graphs
16:18:14 <zwu2> q
16:18:16 <zwu2> q+
#16:18:20 <davidwood> agendum: AOB
16:18:23 <davidwood> next agendum
16:18:37 <davidwood> ack zwu2
16:18:55 <davidwood> next agendum
16:19:19 <hsbauer> zwu2: who is in charge of setting the meeting place?
16:19:50 <LeeF> I may need to send regrets for the first F2F as it conflicts with the Bio IT conference in Boston, which I am semi-committed too
16:19:54 <hsbauer> david: team contacts set the first f2f out of expediency
16:19:55 <LeeF> s/too/to
16:20:11 <hsbauer> ... 3 next will take input for those
16:20:17 <hsbauer> ... this one is fixed
16:20:22 <gavinc> If I remember right there was no remote presence ability at CWI?
16:20:30 <ivan> q+
16:20:36 <ivan> ack zwu2
16:20:42 <ivan> ack zwu
16:21:05 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:21:06 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:21:07 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:21:19 <hsbauer> I will also not be able to attend the first f2f
16:21:29 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:21:40 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:21:54 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:21:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:22:00 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:22:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (16%)
16:22:11 <sandro> ivan: We will have remote audio for the F2F
16:22:27 <sandro> ivan: we may be able to do some low-quality video (eg skype)
16:22:48 <LeeF> q+
16:22:59 <davidwood> ack LeeF
16:23:30 <hsbauer> Leef: can we start on an agenda for f2f
16:23:30 <davidwood> q?
16:23:49 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:23:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:23:53 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:24:04 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (31%)
16:24:18 <davidwood> next agendum
16:24:31 <ivan> -> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/amsterdam.html is a good page to convince sandro et al to hang around...
16:24:44 <hsbauer> Topic: turtle task force
16:25:24 <hsbauer> david: who will be participating. discussion of mailing list asking for notes on this
16:25:53 <hsbauer> ... important task forces have some level of self organization.
16:26:06 <hsbauer> ... have someone to speak for them.
16:26:09 <AndyS> Step 1 -- people add names to TTL TF page
16:26:35 <davidwood> Input material to Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Inputs_Turtle
16:26:41 <hsbauer> ... most important to settle issue number one and deal with input material
16:27:07 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:27:18 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (19%), Guus_Schreiber (19%), Ivan (10%)
16:27:31 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF_interests
16:27:50 <hsbauer> Guus: can we ask for volunteers for spokespersons
16:27:57 <ivan> q+
16:28:30 <ivan> q-
16:28:53 <hsbauer> ivan: I have contacted dave, no response. Eric T. is a possibility.
16:29:10 <SteveH> s/Eric T./Eric P./
16:29:41 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:29:51 <sandro> hsbauer, that was Nathan
16:29:52 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (74%), AndyS (8%), Ivan (3%)
16:30:09 <sandro> webr3=Nathan, just to confuse you
16:30:30 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:30:30 <AndyS> q+
16:30:43 <hsbauer> afraid I missed the comment can someone summarize
16:30:45 <davidwood> ack andys
16:31:03 <gavinc> Would like to participate in the Turtle TF but don't really feel comfortable being the representative for it?
16:31:21 <hsbauer> andys: json task force has a list of names. Is there a difference between interest and participation.
16:31:45 <hsbauer> david: this may have not been a clear process for differentating.
16:31:54 <manu> q+ to volunteer to represent JSON TF
16:32:11 <hsbauer> Topic: JSON
16:32:22 <davidwood> JSON TF: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON
16:32:26 <hsbauer> david: we have participants, inputs and questions
16:32:52 <hsbauer> manu: I'm interested in acting as spokeperson, but may have a conflict of interest.
16:33:06 <PatHayes> I dont see a conflict of interest, quite the contrary.
16:33:16 <nathan> likewise, no conflict imo
16:33:32 <hsbauer> david: personal opinion, editing spec and coordinating task force are not a conflict of interest
16:33:42 <manu> ACTION: Manu to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work.
16:33:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-09].
16:33:53 <PatHayes> Nice try, but you got lumbered.
16:34:22 <hsbauer> manu: taking an action item to summarize postions on the mailing list for json
16:35:00 <hsbauer> manu: are we discussing task force tech issues here or just summarize issues here.
16:35:11 <hsbauer> david: up to the task force.
16:35:24 <Guus> q+
16:35:29 <manu> q-
16:35:32 <hsbauer> ... clarify participants, coordinators is current issue
16:35:44 <manu> q+ to note that JSON-TF will need a separate call.
16:35:48 <ivan> q+
16:36:14 <davidwood> ack Guus
16:36:16 <hsbauer> manu: json will need a separate call for a time
16:36:18 <manu> q-
16:36:52 <hsbauer> Guus: tech discussions are ok, but will be busy with admin for the first few weeks.
16:37:12 <davidwood> ack manu
16:37:12 <sandro> q?
16:37:17 <nathan> q+ to discuss tracker for TFs
16:37:20 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:37:25 <manu> q?
16:37:49 <davidwood> ack nathan
16:37:49 <Zakim> nathan, you wanted to discuss tracker for TFs
16:38:19 <hsbauer> ivan: setting up a separate call is possible
16:38:20 <manu> +1 to separate tracker entries by product
16:38:26 <AZ> +1 to ivan
16:38:33 <gavinc> +1 and they are already setup: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products
16:38:34 <PatHayes> +1 to ivan
16:38:49 <hsbauer> nathan: can issues be opened by the task force?
16:38:54 <ivan> q-
16:38:57 <sandro> +1 let TF's open issues for themselves
16:39:08 <sandro> q+
16:39:14 <zwu2> I just signed up for the graph tf
16:39:38 <hsbauer> david: this is ok
16:40:15 <sandro> q-
16:40:26 <sandro> topic: Graphs TF
16:40:28 <hsbauer> david: tracker will take care of tracking for all
16:40:39 <hsbauer> Topic: Graph Task Force
16:40:51 <sandro> s/Graph/Graphs/
16:41:13 <sandro> s/topic: Graphs TF//
16:41:20 <hsbauer> david: summarize immediate issues
16:41:40 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:41:44 <manu> I really liked Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text e-mail
16:41:47 <sandro> it's LeeF
16:41:51 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), LeeF (100%)
16:41:54 <Guus> suggest to have a wiki page with terms and their defs, as synthesis of ongoing discussion
16:42:27 <hsbauer> Leef: discussions on serializations, sharing, multiple blank nodes.
16:43:01 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
16:43:02 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:43:13 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (4%), Ivan (4%)
16:43:43 <hsbauer> manu: httpRange-14 bound to come up at some point
16:43:59 <nathan> that's ISSUE-57 on the TAG now, and AWWSW TF covers too (I, nathan, work w/ JAR on that)
16:44:04 <manu> We should coordinate with Jonathan Rees on the W3C TAG and the SPARQL WG
16:44:06 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker re. sparql
16:44:16 <hsbauer> Leef: should liase with sparql working group asap
16:44:41 <sandro> lee: SPARQL WG is moving to Last Call with its notion of Graphs
16:44:55 <AlexHall> what is the specific issue wrt graphs and SPARQL wg?
16:45:00 <hsbauer> who is talking?
16:45:03 <manu> Folks will want to re-read: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ... really good stuff in there.
16:45:25 <PatHayes> Suggest that biggest issue might turn out to be, does a GET get the whole graph or can you find out how big the damn thing is first? That is a real issue, most of them are nomenclature.
16:45:41 <FabGandon> q+ to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:45:50 <davidwood> q?
16:45:54 <manu> PatHayes, HEAD /graph ?
16:46:00 <hsbauer> Leef: if issues related to sparql wg are raised some contact should be made
16:46:01 <davidwood> ack FabGandon
16:46:01 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:46:14 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/#http-get
16:46:24 <nathan> PatHayes, agree, there's also if the refers to both the "subject" and the "graph" - tis a gotcha
16:46:38 <PatHayes> manu, I know , but it feels like a dangerous issue where one WG might close a door that another WG needs to have open.
16:46:43 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:46:55 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:47:07 <cygri> q+
16:47:19 <AndyS> Also: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_graphstore (from SPARQL 1.1 Update)
16:47:26 <davidwood> +1 to PatHayer
16:47:30 <sandro> FabGandon: I think there's a mismatch about graph vs resource here, when you dereference.
16:47:32 <sandro> q+
16:47:32 <hsbauer> FabGandon: some differences between practices especially around dereferencing.
16:47:36 <davidwood> s/Pathayer/PatHayes/
16:48:01 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker.
16:48:03 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:48:09 <hsbauer> ... what people are doing when defrerencing a uri
16:48:19 <manu> I tend to see that most people get information about the resource they're dereferencing - the graph is the representation about the resource.
16:48:33 <hsbauer> cygri: opmitting what happens when you look up a uri
16:48:39 <hsbauer> thanks ivan
16:48:57 <manu> perhaps, that's naive - but that seems to be the data people are publishing now w/ RDFa.
16:49:01 <nathan> so, follow your nose is a pita we need to clarify soon, especially w/ graphs uris, lod, issue-57 on tag and so forth - not in charter? can we get away with /not/ getting consensus and agrement
16:49:17 <manu> and I really don't like 303 redirects for most use cases :/
16:49:27 <hsbauer> cygri: looks up a uri on a person which leads to a document. one does a redirect and another gives an rdf:desc with is a graph
16:49:52 <PatHayes> Is a graph an IR? A g-box surely is, right?
16:49:54 <hsbauer> ... keep in mind that you shouldn't use the same uri for identifying person and graph.
16:49:59 <davidwood> ack sandro
16:50:01 <nathan> PatHayes, yes exactly
16:50:21 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:50:27 <cygri> hsbauer, it's sandro
16:50:32 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (70%), AndyS (4%), Ivan (20%)
16:50:47 <hsbauer> sandro: graph is used with considerable ambiguity
16:50:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text viewpoint
16:51:14 <hsbauer> ... proposed three terms in practice most often
16:51:32 <davidwood> In my view, a g-box is an IR.
16:51:33 <hsbauer> ... g-box is the container what sparql means
16:51:42 <hsbauer> ... g-snap
16:51:53 <PatHayes> Ahem. That is what the RDF specs say a graph is.
16:51:56 <hsbauer> ... g-text serialization
16:52:17 <manu> q+ to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:31 <LeeF> davidwood, I believe that is the view of the SPARQL RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol as well
16:52:33 <PatHayes> BTW, I entirely agree with sandro's analysis and his ghastly but usable terminology.
16:52:44 <davidwood> q?
16:52:48 <davidwood> ack manu
16:52:48 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:48 <sandro> sandro: explaining http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0092.html
16:53:01 <hsbauer> manu: like sandro's email. clarifies what we are talking about.
16:53:28 <cygri> q+ to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:53:30 <PatHayes> Lets agree that g-snaps are RDF graphs, ie abstract sets.
16:53:33 <hsbauer> ... the terms may change but this is what we are talking about.
16:53:36 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:53:36 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:54:06 <webr3> PatHayes, +1 yes lets, and not a REST "value" at some time - purely an RDF concept, abstract graph, set of triples
16:54:13 <hsbauer> cygri: rdf semantics g-snap? need clarification.
16:54:40 <hsbauer> ... triples or model theoritic interpretation.
16:54:53 <hsbauer> ... do these documents say the same thing.
16:54:57 <hsbauer> thanks
16:55:20 <hsbauer> PatHayes: model theory doesn't depend on the graph syntax.
16:55:40 <sandro> s/model/the model/
16:55:44 <hsbauer> ... can be adapted
16:56:03 <hsbauer> ... we wanted a not to concrete definition
16:56:36 <hsbauer> ... feeling that we didn't want a central model attached to a particular style
16:57:27 <hsbauer> ... g-snaps instances of g-box -- apparently the mathematical version of the g-box
16:57:29 <manu> I thought g-snaps were supposed to be an non-serialized snapshot of a g-box
16:57:46 <hsbauer> ... g-box and g-text fit in the web arch story.
16:57:47 <webr3> manu, yes correct, abstract set of triples
16:58:04 <sandro> q?
16:58:19 <hsbauer> ... g-text is a serialization of the rdf-graph my understanding.
16:58:20 <cygri> thanks
16:58:26 <AZ> totally right, Pat
16:58:44 <mbrunati> .)
16:59:01 <manu> g-box is the REST Information Resource, it's state at a point in time is a g-snap... if you do an HTTP GET on the IR, you get a g-text.
16:59:06 <hsbauer> david: action item for pat to summarize the issue in an email
16:59:41 <manu> so, effectively graphs are just another type of IR - fits really well with Web Architecture.
16:59:48 <davidwood> q?
16:59:49 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation
16:59:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-03-09].
17:00:11 <hsbauer> david: moving on from graph issue.
17:00:18 <webr3> I'll write up action 7 now then <yay>
17:00:25 <hsbauer> Topic: F2f agenda
17:01:03 <hsbauer> david: issues on our timeline
17:01:22 <hsbauer> ... first deliverable due in May.
17:01:27 <AndyS> q+
17:01:33 <ivan> q+
17:01:37 <sandro> q+ to clarify documents
17:01:46 <hsbauer> ... work out tf starting points and organization
17:01:55 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:02:13 <sandro> andy: "Recommendation Set" ?
17:02:27 <hsbauer> andys: what do you mean by the rdf recommendation set?
17:02:39 <hsbauer> david: check the Charter
17:02:51 <davidwood> 4.1 Milestones
17:02:51 <davidwood> This section simply refers to “RDF Recommendation Set” as a collection of W3C Recommendations that together define the new version of RDF. The exact editorial structure of these documents is to be defined by the Working Group
17:02:55 <AndyS> q-
17:03:01 <PatHayes> Guus just vanished
17:03:03 <davidwood> ack ivan
17:04:06 <hsbauer> ivan: we have to clarify. what is the work ahead of us. explict charter work, remaining work from last time.
17:04:43 <PatHayes> There are several bugs in the sematnics document that need to be fixed. The sheer editing will take time, measured in at least weeks maybe months, given the need to check all changes.
17:04:53 <hsbauer> david: I agree. Ivan would you take action item to start the wiki for the f2f
17:05:20 <davidwood> action: Ivan to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content
17:05:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content [on Ivan Herman - due 2011-03-09].
17:05:32 <davidwood> q?
17:05:38 <davidwood> ack Sandro
17:05:38 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to clarify documents
17:06:04 <hsbauer> sandro: no clear notion about how much change needs to be done to existing documents
17:06:15 <hsbauer> ... turtle is a new document
17:06:25 <hsbauer> ... are the graphs a new document
17:06:35 <hsbauer> ... json also a new document
17:06:35 <PatHayes> It seems clear that Concepts will need at least a thorough editing.
17:06:54 <PatHayes> Right.
17:07:26 <AndyS> Don't see how "TriG" fits [if appropriate] but /me assuming that it can fit in TTL if need be.
17:07:38 <hsbauer> david: updates needed, propose continue with existing and add turtle and json
17:07:50 <sandro> sandro: strawman proposal -- revise each existing document, add two more, JSON and Turtle
17:07:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's suggestion on creating new TURTLE and RDFinJSON documents, updating the rest.
17:08:12 <PatHayes> +1 to sandro
17:08:18 <webr3> manu, RDF in JSON or RDFable JSON ? v different
17:08:20 <manu> AndyS - I'd expect TRiG to be shoved into TURTLE.
17:08:25 <AndyS> q+ to ask about N-Triples
17:08:51 <PatHayes> galapagos?
17:08:59 <gavinc> Can it have a cape?
17:09:03 <manu> webr3 - RDFable JSON (not fond of just shoving RDF triples into a JSON format)
17:09:15 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:09:26 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SteveH (1%), davidwood (29%), PatH (22%), Sandro (19%), Ivan (5%)
17:09:29 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:09:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about N-Triples
17:09:37 <sandro> sandro: Maybe the quads-turtle can be superturtle, with some extra features
17:10:08 <hsbauer> AndyS: not precisely defined for n-triples can it be under this banner
17:10:17 <PatHayes> Sounds like we need a 'various triples formats' document. Can this be in the primer?
17:10:46 <gavinc> +1 as N-Triples and N-Quads as a subset of Turtle
17:10:47 <hsbauer> ... hoping n-triples refinement in scope
17:11:09 <hsbauer> sandro: keep n-triples around
17:11:10 <webr3> we need registered media type for n-triples
17:11:12 <gavinc> One mime type would be nice.
17:11:17 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:11:18 <AlexHall> I think every implementation of N-Triples treats it as a subset of Turtle anyways, so I don't see much danger there
17:11:28 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (9%), Sandro (45%), AndyS (46%), Ivan (33%)
17:11:41 <AndyS> <s> <o> . is different in N-Triples and Turtle
17:11:44 <PatHayes> utf-8 vs ascii is NICE??
17:11:45 <SteveH> AlexHall, no, many treat it differently
17:12:01 <gavinc> Yeah, as Turtle is UTF-8 and NTriples is ASCII
17:12:21 <webr3> ascii-7 bit, all /text tree is us-ascii 7-bit ..
17:12:48 <sandro> andy: n-triples doesn't resolve uris, so <s> is a valid URI from its perspective, "s".
17:12:49 <hsbauer> AndyS: n-triples doesn't say anything about resolving uris.
17:13:09 <mischat> s/resolving uris/resolving relative uris/
17:13:10 <hsbauer> david: gavin raised mime-type registration
17:13:20 <davidwood> q?
17:13:28 <hsbauer> ivan: unfinished mime-type reg in turtle
17:13:46 <AndyS> Very keen to not have N-Triples being text/plain
17:14:01 <sandro> +1 andy
17:14:07 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS
17:14:19 <hsbauer> david: closing for business. Adjourning.
17:14:34 <hsbauer> ... reminder to participate in task forces.
17:15:26 <hsbauer> ... scribe for next week Christopher Matthews?
17:15:27 <cmatheus> correct. yes.
17:15:33 <cmatheus> I
17:15:40 <hsbauer> ... matheus
17:15:44 <gavinc> AndyS, yeah: text/plain, application/n-triples, application/x-n-triples, text/n-triples, text/x-n-triples ... ah, NTriples
17:15:48 <cmatheus> I don't have full telephone access today.
17:16:01 <Zakim> -manu
17:16:02 <zwu2> thanks
17:16:03 <PatHayes> Bye.
17:16:04 <ivan> zakim, drop me
17:16:04 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:16:04 <mbrunati> bye
17:16:05 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:16:05 <Zakim> -cygri
17:16:06 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:16:06 <Zakim> -mischat
17:16:06 <AZ> bye
17:16:08 <Zakim> -corby
17:16:10 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:16:11 <Zakim> -PatH
17:16:14 <Zakim> -webr3
17:16:17 <Zakim> -SteveH
17:16:18 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:16:20 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
17:16:22 <Zakim> -gavinc
17:16:26 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:16:28 <Zakim> -mbrunati
17:16:32 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:16:34 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:16:36 <Zakim> -??P2
17:16:40 <Zakim> -FabGandon
17:16:42 <Zakim> -AZ
17:16:44 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
17:17:47 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
17:18:57 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000531
</nowiki></pre>

Chatlog 2011-03-02

Sbauer2 — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:11:24 GMT

Sbauer2:

{{chatlog|rrsagent=http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc.txt|chatlog={{fullurl:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}
<pre><nowiki>
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc
15:21:26 <LeeF> Hard to disagree with that
15:21:47 <LeeF> I think I will never get used to reading the "@" sigil in JSON-LD correctly, alas
15:22:05 <mischat> manu: in your trig looking examples, in the example "Graph Changes Over Time" for example, you have trailing "'s
15:22:06 <mischat> "2011-02-26T00:00:00+0000"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>
15:22:10 <mischat> "
15:22:43 <hsbauer> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:22:44 <manu> @LeeF yeah - we could change it to something else? Every time I've changed the key that establishes the subject, somebody complains about it :P
15:23:02 <hsbauer> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:23:20 <hsbauer> Meeting: RDF WG Teleconference
15:24:14 <LeeF> oh i wasn't complaining, manu, i'm just not used to it
15:24:17 <LeeF> I think it's kind of clever
15:25:28 <hsbauer> is david wood chair today?
15:25:49 <manu> LeeF, it's annoying at first, and then you get used to it. '@' was supposed to symbolize - "This object can be found at..." or "This object describes the data at..." or "This object exists at..."
15:29:12 <hsbauer> Chair: David Wood
15:29:49 <hsbauer> zakim, this will be SW_RDFWG
15:29:49 <Zakim> ok, hsbauer; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
15:33:18 <mischat> um, turtle does allow "." before "]" when writing predicateObject lists, as per rule 7 in the turtle submission thing. The correct (turtle'd version of your example) http://pastebin.com/K7D9LQ36 (obviously this is less the graph bit you would get in trig).
15:42:48 <mischat> ok may do that afterwards :)
15:46:36 <webr3> webr3 has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:38 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:51:41 <gavinc> gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:45 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
15:52:49 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:52:59 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:53:57 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:16 <PatHayes> PatHayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:32 <Zakim> +davidwood
15:54:44 <Zakim> +FabGandon
15:55:00 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:55:12 <gavinc> zakim, mute me
15:55:12 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
15:56:52 <davidwood> Meeting: RDF Working Group
15:56:57 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
15:57:28 <Zakim> +PatH
15:57:33 <manu> zakim, code?
15:57:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu
15:57:44 <Zakim> +??P9
15:57:47 <manu> zakim, I am ??P9
15:57:47 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:57:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:57:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:57:55 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:57:58 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:58:12 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:58:12 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:58:23 <davidwood> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:58:32 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:35 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:40 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
15:58:44 <Zakim> +??P10
15:58:56 <mischat> zakim, P10 is me
15:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
15:59:02 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:59:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:07 <mischat> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:59:07 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:59:10 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:59:10 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:59:22 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:25 <Zakim> +??P12
15:59:32 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:59:33 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
15:59:33 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:59:49 <Zakim> +corby
16:00:03 <PatHayes> Im not hearing the breathing.
16:00:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:07 <Zakim> +Alex_Hall
16:00:11 <webr3> zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
16:00:11 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:00:12 <Zakim> +AZ
16:00:18 <webr3> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:00:18 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
16:00:28 <AlexHall> zakim, Alex_Hall is me
16:00:28 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
16:00:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:00:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:00:52 <Zakim> ... AZ
16:00:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH, danbri, davidwood, yvesr,
16:00:57 <Zakim> ... manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:00:58 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
16:01:14 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:26 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:30 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:01:51 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:01:51 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
16:02:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:27 <Zakim> +cygri
16:02:27 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:33 <danbri> regrets from me; at mini-NoTube F2F in Bristol (although not as I feared travelling so will follow in IRC)
16:02:51 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here
16:02:51 <Zakim> mbrunati, you need to end that query with '?'
16:03:05 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here?
16:03:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:08 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, [IPcaller], cygri
16:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see cmatheus, Guus, SteveH__, AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH,
16:03:15 <Zakim> ... danbri, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:03:20 <sandro> regrets: danbri, souri
16:03:24 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:03:24 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
16:03:26 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:03:36 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
16:03:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:40 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, mbrunati, cygri
16:03:45 <SteveH__> Zakim, what's the code?
16:03:45 <AZ> AZ is for Antoine Zimmermann
16:03:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), SteveH__
16:03:58 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:03:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:04:13 <hsbauer> regrets: danbri, yvesr, nickh
16:04:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:21 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:04:21 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
16:04:28 <davidwood> Agenda is at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-02 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:59 <pfps> minutes look fine to me
16:05:06 <AndyS> Regrets for last time: AndyS
16:05:07 <hsbauer> david: proposes to accept last weeks minutes
16:05:12 <ivan> +1
16:05:15 <FabGandon> +1
16:05:18 <AZ> +1
16:05:23 <mbrunati> +1
16:05:26 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes
16:05:41 <hsbauer> david: action item review
16:05:43 <davidwood> Action items pending review: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:05:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - items
16:05:47 <PatHayes> ignore this, testing.
16:06:04 <sandro> manu, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:06:47 <hsbauer> ... pending review alex has completed use case, scott has completed use case
16:06:51 <AZ> zakim, unmute me
16:06:51 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted
16:07:11 <hsbauer> ... peter, antoine both completed use cases
16:07:16 <ivan> q+
16:07:35 <davidwood> ACTION-1: close
16:07:35 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format notes added
16:07:42 <sandro> close action-1
16:07:42 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format closed
16:07:48 <Zakim> +??P2
16:07:52 <davidwood> close action-8
16:07:52 <trackbot> ACTION-8 Provide a use case for graphs closed
16:07:56 <davidwood> close action-9
16:07:56 <trackbot> ACTION-9 Provide a Revelytix use case for graphs closed
16:07:59 <davidwood> close action-13
16:07:59 <trackbot> ACTION-13 separate ontology named graph use case closed
16:08:02 <davidwood> close action-14
16:08:02 <trackbot> ACTION-14 Provide use cases for graphs in the wiki closed
16:08:14 <ivan> q-
16:08:16 <hsbauer> ... closing 8, 13, 14 and 9
16:08:46 <AZ> yversr must be him
16:08:57 <hsbauer> ... open action 4,5
16:08:59 <davidwood> yvesr: Is action-5 complete?
16:09:06 <yvesr> davidwood: i started on it
16:09:09 <davidwood> ok
16:09:11 <yvesr> davidwood: we still need to polish it
16:09:17 <sandro> s/yvesr:/yvesr,/
16:09:19 <hsbauer> ... action 6, still open.
16:09:35 <mischat> Zakim, unmute me
16:09:35 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
16:09:35 <sandro> mischat?
16:09:41 <yvesr> ivan: yes
16:09:46 <yvesr> ivan: but still a draft
16:09:51 <hsbauer> ... action 7, 11 still open
16:10:02 <mischat> zakim, mute me
16:10:02 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:10:30 <hsbauer> ... what's our procedure for raised issues
16:10:48 <hsbauer> ... will call out issues open them and discuss briefly
16:12:00 <hsbauer> ... is turtle the same as sparkle 1.0 -- issue one.
16:12:04 <webr3> could close the issue by saying "no" and responding with all differences
16:12:25 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:12:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:12:39 <hsbauer> david: issue 2
16:13:14 <sandro> issue-2?
16:13:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- What existing proposal, if any, should be the starting point/default for the JSON design? -- open
16:13:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2
16:13:39 <hsbauer> ... What existing proposal should be the starting point for the JSON issue
16:14:20 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:14:28 <Zakim> +FabGandon
16:14:42 <hsbauer> ... issue 3 also opened
16:15:08 <hsbauer> ... issue of handling action item. after pleading it mark it as pending review.
16:15:44 <ivan> April 13 14 in Amsterdam, at CWI
16:15:46 <davidwood> agenda: FTF1
16:15:49 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:15:57 <hsbauer> ... F2F solid dates and location. Group can start making travel plans.
16:16:18 <sandro> q+
16:16:22 <hsbauer> ... Place is TWI in Amsterdam 13th and 14th of march.
16:16:28 <ivan> s/TWI/CWI/
16:16:32 <zwu2> april?
16:16:37 <hsbauer> ... Ivan will take an action itme.
16:16:46 <ivan> april
16:16:48 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:16:50 <ivan> s/march/April/
16:16:50 <davidwood> action: Guus to make hotel suggestions for FTF1
16:16:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-09].
16:16:54 <hsbauer> ... correction 13th and 14th of April
16:17:11 <sandro> ack sandro
16:17:30 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:17:30 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
16:17:39 <davidwood> agenda: Turtle TF
16:17:39 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
16:17:39 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
16:17:45 <davidwood> agendum: JSON TF
16:17:52 <davidwood> agendum: Graphs TF
16:17:59 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:18:09 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:18:09 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
16:18:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (16%), Sandro (25%), Ivan (34%)
16:18:14 <davidwood> agendum: Discuss Pat Hayes' Proposal for Graphs
16:18:14 <zwu2> q
16:18:16 <zwu2> q+
16:18:20 <davidwood> agendum: AOB
16:18:23 <davidwood> next agendum
16:18:37 <davidwood> ack zwu2
16:18:55 <davidwood> next agendum
16:19:19 <hsbauer> zwu2: who is in charge of setting the meeting place?
16:19:50 <LeeF> I may need to send regrets for the first F2F as it conflicts with the Bio IT conference in Boston, which I am semi-committed too
16:19:54 <hsbauer> david: team contacts set the first f2f out of expediency
16:19:55 <LeeF> s/too/to
16:20:11 <hsbauer> ... 3 next will take input for those
16:20:17 <hsbauer> ... this one is fixed
16:20:22 <gavinc> If I remember right there was no remote presence ability at CWI?
16:20:30 <ivan> q+
16:20:36 <ivan> ack zwu2
16:20:42 <ivan> ack zwu
16:21:05 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:21:06 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:21:07 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:21:19 <hsbauer> I will also not be able to attend the first f2f
16:21:29 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:21:40 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:21:54 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:21:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:22:00 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:22:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (16%)
16:22:11 <sandro> ivan: We will have remote audio for the F2F
16:22:27 <sandro> ivan: we may be able to do some low-quality video (eg skype)
16:22:48 <LeeF> q+
16:22:59 <davidwood> ack LeeF
16:23:30 <hsbauer> Leef: can we start on an agenda for f2f
16:23:30 <davidwood> q?
16:23:49 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:23:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:23:53 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:24:04 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (31%)
16:24:18 <davidwood> next agendum
16:24:31 <ivan> -> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/amsterdam.html is a good page to convince sandro et al to hang around...
16:24:44 <hsbauer> Topic: turtle task force
16:25:24 <hsbauer> david: who will be participating. discussion of mailing list asking for notes on this
16:25:53 <hsbauer> ... important task forces have some level of self organization.
16:26:06 <hsbauer> ... have someone to speak for them.
16:26:09 <AndyS> Step 1 -- people add names to TTL TF page
16:26:35 <davidwood> Input material to Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Inputs_Turtle
16:26:41 <hsbauer> ... most important to settle issue number one and deal with input material
16:27:07 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:27:18 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (19%), Guus_Schreiber (19%), Ivan (10%)
16:27:31 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF_interests
16:27:50 <hsbauer> Guus: can we ask for volunteers for spokespersons
16:27:57 <ivan> q+
16:28:30 <ivan> q-
16:28:53 <hsbauer> ivan: I have contacted dave, no response. Eric T. is a possibility.
16:29:10 <SteveH> s/Eric T./Eric P./
16:29:41 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:29:51 <sandro> hsbauer, that was Nathan
16:29:52 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (74%), AndyS (8%), Ivan (3%)
16:30:09 <sandro> webr3=Nathan, just to confuse you
16:30:30 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:30:30 <AndyS> q+
16:30:43 <hsbauer> afraid I missed the comment can someone summarize
16:30:45 <davidwood> ack andys
16:31:03 <gavinc> Would like to participate in the Turtle TF but don't really feel comfortable being the representative for it?
16:31:21 <hsbauer> andys: json task force has a list of names. Is there a difference between interest and participation.
16:31:45 <hsbauer> david: this may have not been a clear process for differentating.
16:31:54 <manu> q+ to volunteer to represent JSON TF
16:32:11 <hsbauer> Topic: JSON
16:32:22 <davidwood> JSON TF: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON
16:32:26 <hsbauer> david: we have participants, inputs and questions
16:32:52 <hsbauer> manu: I'm interested in acting as spokeperson, but may have a conflict of interest.
16:33:06 <PatHayes> I dont see a conflict of interest, quite the contrary.
16:33:16 <nathan> likewise, no conflict imo
16:33:32 <hsbauer> david: personal opinion, editing spec and coordinating task force are not a conflict of interest
16:33:42 <manu> ACTION: Manu to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work.
16:33:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-09].
16:33:53 <PatHayes> Nice try, but you got lumbered.
16:34:22 <hsbauer> manu: taking an action item to summarize postions on the mailing list for json
16:35:00 <hsbauer> manu: are we discussing task force tech issues here or just summarize issues here.
16:35:11 <hsbauer> david: up to the task force.
16:35:24 <Guus> q+
16:35:29 <manu> q-
16:35:32 <hsbauer> ... clarify participants, coordinators is current issue
16:35:44 <manu> q+ to note that JSON-TF will need a separate call.
16:35:48 <ivan> q+
16:36:14 <davidwood> ack Guus
16:36:16 <hsbauer> manu: json will need a separate call for a time
16:36:18 <manu> q-
16:36:52 <hsbauer> Guus: tech discussions are ok, but will be busy with admin for the first few weeks.
16:37:12 <davidwood> ack manu
16:37:12 <sandro> q?
16:37:17 <nathan> q+ to discuss tracker for TFs
16:37:20 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:37:25 <manu> q?
16:37:49 <davidwood> ack nathan
16:37:49 <Zakim> nathan, you wanted to discuss tracker for TFs
16:38:19 <hsbauer> ivan: setting up a separate call is possible
16:38:20 <manu> +1 to separate tracker entries by product
16:38:26 <AZ> +1 to ivan
16:38:33 <gavinc> +1 and they are already setup: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products
16:38:34 <PatHayes> +1 to ivan
16:38:49 <hsbauer> nathan: can issues be opened by the task force?
16:38:54 <ivan> q-
16:38:57 <sandro> +1 let TF's open issues for themselves
16:39:08 <sandro> q+
16:39:14 <zwu2> I just signed up for the graph tf
16:39:38 <hsbauer> david: this is ok
16:40:15 <sandro> q-
16:40:26 <sandro> topic: Graphs TF
16:40:28 <hsbauer> david: tracker will take care of tracking for all
16:40:39 <hsbauer> Topic: Graph Task Force
16:40:51 <sandro> s/Graph/Graphs/
16:41:13 <sandro> s/topic: Graphs TF//
16:41:20 <hsbauer> david: summarize immediate issues
16:41:40 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:41:44 <manu> I really liked Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text e-mail
16:41:47 <sandro> it's LeeF
16:41:51 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), LeeF (100%)
16:41:54 <Guus> suggest to have a wiki page with terms and their defs, as synthesis of ongoing discussion
16:42:27 <hsbauer> Leef: discussions on serializations, sharing, multiple blank nodes.
16:43:01 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
16:43:02 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:43:13 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (4%), Ivan (4%)
16:43:43 <hsbauer> manu: httpRange-14 bound to come up at some point
16:43:59 <nathan> that's ISSUE-57 on the TAG now, and AWWSW TF covers too (I, nathan, work w/ JAR on that)
16:44:04 <manu> We should coordinate with Jonathan Rees on the W3C TAG and the SPARQL WG
16:44:06 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker re. sparql
16:44:16 <hsbauer> Leef: should liase with sparql working group asap
16:44:41 <sandro> lee: SPARQL WG is moving to Last Call with its notion of Graphs
16:44:55 <AlexHall> what is the specific issue wrt graphs and SPARQL wg?
16:45:00 <hsbauer> who is talking?
16:45:03 <manu> Folks will want to re-read: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ... really good stuff in there.
16:45:25 <PatHayes> Suggest that biggest issue might turn out to be, does a GET get the whole graph or can you find out how big the damn thing is first? That is a real issue, most of them are nomenclature.
16:45:41 <FabGandon> q+ to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:45:50 <davidwood> q?
16:45:54 <manu> PatHayes, HEAD /graph ?
16:46:00 <hsbauer> Leef: if issues related to sparql wg are raised some contact should be made
16:46:01 <davidwood> ack FabGandon
16:46:01 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:46:14 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/#http-get
16:46:24 <nathan> PatHayes, agree, there's also if the refers to both the "subject" and the "graph" - tis a gotcha
16:46:38 <PatHayes> manu, I know , but it feels like a dangerous issue where one WG might close a door that another WG needs to have open.
16:46:43 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:46:55 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:47:07 <cygri> q+
16:47:19 <AndyS> Also: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_graphstore (from SPARQL 1.1 Update)
16:47:26 <davidwood> +1 to PatHayer
16:47:30 <sandro> FabGandon: I think there's a mismatch about graph vs resource here, when you dereference.
16:47:32 <sandro> q+
16:47:32 <hsbauer> FabGandon: some differences between practices especially around dereferencing.
16:47:36 <davidwood> s/Pathayer/PatHayes/
16:48:01 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker.
16:48:03 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:48:09 <hsbauer> ... what people are doing when defrerencing a uri
16:48:19 <manu> I tend to see that most people get information about the resource they're dereferencing - the graph is the representation about the resource.
16:48:33 <hsbauer> cygri: opmitting what happens when you look up a uri
16:48:39 <hsbauer> thanks ivan
16:48:57 <manu> perhaps, that's naive - but that seems to be the data people are publishing now w/ RDFa.
16:49:01 <nathan> so, follow your nose is a pita we need to clarify soon, especially w/ graphs uris, lod, issue-57 on tag and so forth - not in charter? can we get away with /not/ getting consensus and agrement
16:49:17 <manu> and I really don't like 303 redirects for most use cases :/
16:49:27 <hsbauer> cygri: looks up a uri on a person which leads to a document. one does a redirect and another gives an rdf:desc with is a graph
16:49:52 <PatHayes> Is a graph an IR? A g-box surely is, right?
16:49:54 <hsbauer> ... keep in mind that you shouldn't use the same uri for identifying person and graph.
16:49:59 <davidwood> ack sandro
16:50:01 <nathan> PatHayes, yes exactly
16:50:21 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:50:27 <cygri> hsbauer, it's sandro
16:50:32 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (70%), AndyS (4%), Ivan (20%)
16:50:47 <hsbauer> sandro: graph is used with considerable ambiguity
16:50:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text viewpoint
16:51:14 <hsbauer> ... proposed three terms in practice most often
16:51:32 <davidwood> In my view, a g-box is an IR.
16:51:33 <hsbauer> ... g-box is the container what sparql means
16:51:42 <hsbauer> ... g-snap
16:51:53 <PatHayes> Ahem. That is what the RDF specs say a graph is.
16:51:56 <hsbauer> ... g-text serialization
16:52:17 <manu> q+ to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:31 <LeeF> davidwood, I believe that is the view of the SPARQL RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol as well
16:52:33 <PatHayes> BTW, I entirely agree with sandro's analysis and his ghastly but usable terminology.
16:52:44 <davidwood> q?
16:52:48 <davidwood> ack manu
16:52:48 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:48 <sandro> sandro: explaining http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0092.html
16:53:01 <hsbauer> manu: like sandro's email. clarifies what we are talking about.
16:53:28 <cygri> q+ to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:53:30 <PatHayes> Lets agree that g-snaps are RDF graphs, ie abstract sets.
16:53:33 <hsbauer> ... the terms may change but this is what we are talking about.
16:53:36 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:53:36 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:54:06 <webr3> PatHayes, +1 yes lets, and not a REST "value" at some time - purely an RDF concept, abstract graph, set of triples
16:54:13 <hsbauer> cygri: rdf semantics g-snap? need clarification.
16:54:40 <hsbauer> ... triples or model theoritic interpretation.
16:54:53 <hsbauer> ... do these documents say the same thing.
16:54:57 <hsbauer> thanks
16:55:20 <hsbauer> PatHayes: model theory doesn't depend on the graph syntax.
16:55:40 <sandro> s/model/the model/
16:55:44 <hsbauer> ... can be adapted
16:56:03 <hsbauer> ... we wanted a not to concrete definition
16:56:36 <hsbauer> ... feeling that we didn't want a central model attached to a particular style
16:57:27 <hsbauer> ... g-snaps instances of g-box -- apparently the mathematical version of the g-box
16:57:29 <manu> I thought g-snaps were supposed to be an non-serialized snapshot of a g-box
16:57:46 <hsbauer> ... g-box and g-text fit in the web arch story.
16:57:47 <webr3> manu, yes correct, abstract set of triples
16:58:04 <sandro> q?
16:58:19 <hsbauer> ... g-text is a serialization of the rdf-graph my understanding.
16:58:20 <cygri> thanks
16:58:26 <AZ> totally right, Pat
16:58:44 <mbrunati> .)
16:59:01 <manu> g-box is the REST Information Resource, it's state at a point in time is a g-snap... if you do an HTTP GET on the IR, you get a g-text.
16:59:06 <hsbauer> david: action item for pat to summarize the issue in an email
16:59:41 <manu> so, effectively graphs are just another type of IR - fits really well with Web Architecture.
16:59:48 <davidwood> q?
16:59:49 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation
16:59:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-03-09].
17:00:11 <hsbauer> david: moving on from graph issue.
17:00:18 <webr3> I'll write up action 7 now then <yay>
17:00:25 <hsbauer> Topic: F2f agenda
17:01:03 <hsbauer> david: issues on our timeline
17:01:22 <hsbauer> ... first deliverable due in May.
17:01:27 <AndyS> q+
17:01:33 <ivan> q+
17:01:37 <sandro> q+ to clarify documents
17:01:46 <hsbauer> ... work out tf starting points and organization
17:01:55 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:02:13 <sandro> andy: "Recommendation Set" ?
17:02:27 <hsbauer> andys: what do you mean by the rdf recommendation set?
17:02:39 <hsbauer> david: check the Charter
17:02:51 <davidwood> 4.1 Milestones
17:02:51 <davidwood> This section simply refers to “RDF Recommendation Set” as a collection of W3C Recommendations that together define the new version of RDF. The exact editorial structure of these documents is to be defined by the Working Group
17:02:55 <AndyS> q-
17:03:01 <PatHayes> Guus just vanished
17:03:03 <davidwood> ack ivan
17:04:06 <hsbauer> ivan: we have to clarify. what is the work ahead of us. explict charter work, remaining work from last time.
17:04:43 <PatHayes> There are several bugs in the sematnics document that need to be fixed. The sheer editing will take time, measured in at least weeks maybe months, given the need to check all changes.
17:04:53 <hsbauer> david: I agree. Ivan would you take action item to start the wiki for the f2f
17:05:20 <davidwood> action: Ivan to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content
17:05:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content [on Ivan Herman - due 2011-03-09].
17:05:32 <davidwood> q?
17:05:38 <davidwood> ack Sandro
17:05:38 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to clarify documents
17:06:04 <hsbauer> sandro: no clear notion about how much change needs to be done to existing documents
17:06:15 <hsbauer> ... turtle is a new document
17:06:25 <hsbauer> ... are the graphs a new document
17:06:35 <hsbauer> ... json also a new document
17:06:35 <PatHayes> It seems clear that Concepts will need at least a thorough editing.
17:06:54 <PatHayes> Right.
17:07:26 <AndyS> Don't see how "TriG" fits [if appropriate] but /me assuming that it can fit in TTL if need be.
17:07:38 <hsbauer> david: updates needed, propose continue with existing and add turtle and json
17:07:50 <sandro> sandro: strawman proposal -- revise each existing document, add two more, JSON and Turtle
17:07:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's suggestion on creating new TURTLE and RDFinJSON documents, updating the rest.
17:08:12 <PatHayes> +1 to sandro
17:08:18 <webr3> manu, RDF in JSON or RDFable JSON ? v different
17:08:20 <manu> AndyS - I'd expect TRiG to be shoved into TURTLE.
17:08:25 <AndyS> q+ to ask about N-Triples
17:08:51 <PatHayes> galapagos?
17:08:59 <gavinc> Can it have a cape?
17:09:03 <manu> webr3 - RDFable JSON (not fond of just shoving RDF triples into a JSON format)
17:09:15 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:09:26 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SteveH (1%), davidwood (29%), PatH (22%), Sandro (19%), Ivan (5%)
17:09:29 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:09:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about N-Triples
17:09:37 <sandro> sandro: Maybe the quads-turtle can be superturtle, with some extra features
17:10:08 <hsbauer> AndyS: not precisely defined for n-triples can it be under this banner
17:10:17 <PatHayes> Sounds like we need a 'various triples formats' document. Can this be in the primer?
17:10:46 <gavinc> +1 as N-Triples and N-Quads as a subset of Turtle
17:10:47 <hsbauer> ... hoping n-triples refinement in scope
17:11:09 <hsbauer> sandro: keep n-triples around
17:11:10 <webr3> we need registered media type for n-triples
17:11:12 <gavinc> One mime type would be nice.
17:11:17 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:11:18 <AlexHall> I think every implementation of N-Triples treats it as a subset of Turtle anyways, so I don't see much danger there
17:11:28 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (9%), Sandro (45%), AndyS (46%), Ivan (33%)
17:11:41 <AndyS> <s> <o> . is different in N-Triples and Turtle
17:11:44 <PatHayes> utf-8 vs ascii is NICE??
17:11:45 <SteveH> AlexHall, no, many treat it differently
17:12:01 <gavinc> Yeah, as Turtle is UTF-8 and NTriples is ASCII
17:12:21 <webr3> ascii-7 bit, all /text tree is us-ascii 7-bit ..
17:12:48 <sandro> andy: n-triples doesn't resolve uris, so <s> is a valid URI from its perspective, "s".
17:12:49 <hsbauer> AndyS: n-triples doesn't say anything about resolving uris.
17:13:09 <mischat> s/resolving uris/resolving relative uris/
17:13:10 <hsbauer> david: gavin raised mime-type registration
17:13:20 <davidwood> q?
17:13:28 <hsbauer> ivan: unfinished mime-type reg in turtle
17:13:46 <AndyS> Very keen to not have N-Triples being text/plain
17:14:01 <sandro> +1 andy
17:14:07 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS
17:14:19 <hsbauer> david: closing for business. Adjourning.
17:14:34 <hsbauer> ... reminder to participate in task forces.
17:15:26 <hsbauer> ... scribe for next week Christopher Matthews?
17:15:27 <cmatheus> correct. yes.
17:15:33 <cmatheus> I
17:15:40 <hsbauer> ... matheus
17:15:44 <gavinc> AndyS, yeah: text/plain, application/n-triples, application/x-n-triples, text/n-triples, text/x-n-triples ... ah, NTriples
17:15:48 <cmatheus> I don't have full telephone access today.
17:16:01 <Zakim> -manu
17:16:02 <zwu2> thanks
17:16:03 <PatHayes> Bye.
17:16:04 <ivan> zakim, drop me
17:16:04 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:16:04 <mbrunati> bye
17:16:05 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:16:05 <Zakim> -cygri
17:16:06 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:16:06 <Zakim> -mischat
17:16:06 <AZ> bye
17:16:08 <Zakim> -corby
17:16:10 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:16:11 <Zakim> -PatH
17:16:14 <Zakim> -webr3
17:16:17 <Zakim> -SteveH
17:16:18 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:16:20 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
17:16:22 <Zakim> -gavinc
17:16:26 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:16:28 <Zakim> -mbrunati
17:16:32 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:16:34 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:16:36 <Zakim> -??P2
17:16:40 <Zakim> -FabGandon
17:16:42 <Zakim> -AZ
17:16:44 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
17:17:47 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
17:18:57 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
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Chatlog 2011-03-02

Sbauer2 — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:08:06 GMT

Sbauer2:

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15:19:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc
15:21:26 <LeeF> Hard to disagree with that
15:21:47 <LeeF> I think I will never get used to reading the "@" sigil in JSON-LD correctly, alas
15:22:05 <mischat> manu: in your trig looking examples, in the example "Graph Changes Over Time" for example, you have trailing "'s
15:22:06 <mischat> "2011-02-26T00:00:00+0000"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>
15:22:10 <mischat> "
15:22:43 <hsbauer> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:22:44 <manu> @LeeF yeah - we could change it to something else? Every time I've changed the key that establishes the subject, somebody complains about it :P
15:23:02 <hsbauer> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:23:20 <hsbauer> Meeting: RDF WG Teleconference
15:24:14 <LeeF> oh i wasn't complaining, manu, i'm just not used to it
15:24:17 <LeeF> I think it's kind of clever
15:25:28 <hsbauer> is david wood chair today?
15:25:49 <manu> LeeF, it's annoying at first, and then you get used to it. '@' was supposed to symbolize - "This object can be found at..." or "This object describes the data at..." or "This object exists at..."
15:29:12 <hsbauer> Chair: David Wood
15:29:49 <hsbauer> zakim, this will be SW_RDFWG
15:29:49 <Zakim> ok, hsbauer; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
15:33:18 <mischat> um, turtle does allow "." before "]" when writing predicateObject lists, as per rule 7 in the turtle submission thing. The correct (turtle'd version of your example) http://pastebin.com/K7D9LQ36 (obviously this is less the graph bit you would get in trig).
15:42:48 <mischat> ok may do that afterwards :)
15:46:36 <webr3> webr3 has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:38 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:51:41 <gavinc> gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:45 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
15:52:49 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:52:59 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:53:57 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:16 <PatHayes> PatHayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:32 <Zakim> +davidwood
15:54:44 <Zakim> +FabGandon
15:55:00 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:55:12 <gavinc> zakim, mute me
15:55:12 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
15:56:52 <davidwood> Meeting: RDF Working Group
15:56:57 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
15:57:28 <Zakim> +PatH
15:57:33 <manu> zakim, code?
15:57:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu
15:57:44 <Zakim> +??P9
15:57:47 <manu> zakim, I am ??P9
15:57:47 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:57:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:57:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:57:55 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:57:58 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:58:12 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:58:12 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:58:23 <davidwood> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:58:32 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:35 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:40 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
15:58:44 <Zakim> +??P10
15:58:56 <mischat> zakim, P10 is me
15:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
15:59:02 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:59:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:07 <mischat> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:59:07 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:59:10 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:59:10 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:59:22 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:25 <Zakim> +??P12
15:59:32 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:59:33 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
15:59:33 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:59:49 <Zakim> +corby
16:00:03 <PatHayes> Im not hearing the breathing.
16:00:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:07 <Zakim> +Alex_Hall
16:00:11 <webr3> zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
16:00:11 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:00:12 <Zakim> +AZ
16:00:18 <webr3> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:00:18 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
16:00:28 <AlexHall> zakim, Alex_Hall is me
16:00:28 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
16:00:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:00:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:00:52 <Zakim> ... AZ
16:00:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH, danbri, davidwood, yvesr,
16:00:57 <Zakim> ... manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:00:58 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
16:01:14 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:26 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:30 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:01:51 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:01:51 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
16:02:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:27 <Zakim> +cygri
16:02:27 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:33 <danbri> regrets from me; at mini-NoTube F2F in Bristol (although not as I feared travelling so will follow in IRC)
16:02:51 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here
16:02:51 <Zakim> mbrunati, you need to end that query with '?'
16:03:05 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here?
16:03:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:08 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, [IPcaller], cygri
16:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see cmatheus, Guus, SteveH__, AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH,
16:03:15 <Zakim> ... danbri, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:03:20 <sandro> regrets: danbri, souri
16:03:24 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:03:24 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
16:03:26 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:03:36 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
16:03:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:40 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, mbrunati, cygri
16:03:45 <SteveH__> Zakim, what's the code?
16:03:45 <AZ> AZ is for Antoine Zimmermann
16:03:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), SteveH__
16:03:58 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:03:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:04:13 <hsbauer> regrets: danbri, yvesr, nickh
16:04:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:21 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:04:21 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
16:04:28 <davidwood> Agenda is at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-02 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:59 <pfps> minutes look fine to me
16:05:06 <AndyS> Regrets for last time: AndyS
16:05:07 <hsbauer> david: proposes to accept last weeks minutes
16:05:12 <ivan> +1
16:05:15 <FabGandon> +1
16:05:18 <AZ> +1
16:05:23 <mbrunati> +1
16:05:26 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes
16:05:41 <hsbauer> david: action item review
16:05:43 <davidwood> Action items pending review: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:05:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - items
16:05:47 <PatHayes> ignore this, testing.
16:06:04 <sandro> manu, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:06:47 <hsbauer> ... pending review alex has completed use case, scott has completed use case
16:06:51 <AZ> zakim, unmute me
16:06:51 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted
16:07:11 <hsbauer> ... peter, antoine both completed use cases
16:07:16 <ivan> q+
16:07:35 <davidwood> ACTION-1: close
16:07:35 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format notes added
16:07:42 <sandro> close action-1
16:07:42 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format closed
16:07:48 <Zakim> +??P2
16:07:52 <davidwood> close action-8
16:07:52 <trackbot> ACTION-8 Provide a use case for graphs closed
16:07:56 <davidwood> close action-9
16:07:56 <trackbot> ACTION-9 Provide a Revelytix use case for graphs closed
16:07:59 <davidwood> close action-13
16:07:59 <trackbot> ACTION-13 separate ontology named graph use case closed
16:08:02 <davidwood> close action-14
16:08:02 <trackbot> ACTION-14 Provide use cases for graphs in the wiki closed
16:08:14 <ivan> q-
16:08:16 <hsbauer> ... closing 8, 13, 14 and 9
16:08:46 <AZ> yversr must be him
16:08:57 <hsbauer> ... open action 4,5
16:08:59 <davidwood> yvesr: Is action-5 complete?
16:09:06 <yvesr> davidwood: i started on it
16:09:09 <davidwood> ok
16:09:11 <yvesr> davidwood: we still need to polish it
16:09:17 <sandro> s/yvesr:/yvesr,/
16:09:19 <hsbauer> ... action 6, still open.
16:09:35 <mischat> Zakim, unmute me
16:09:35 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
16:09:35 <sandro> mischat?
16:09:41 <yvesr> ivan: yes
16:09:46 <yvesr> ivan: but still a draft
16:09:51 <hsbauer> ... action 7, 11 still open
16:10:02 <mischat> zakim, mute me
16:10:02 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:10:30 <hsbauer> ... what's our procedure for raised issues
16:10:48 <hsbauer> ... will call out issues open them and discuss briefly
16:12:00 <hsbauer> ... is turtle the same as sparkle 1.0 -- issue one.
16:12:04 <webr3> could close the issue by saying "no" and responding with all differences
16:12:25 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:12:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:12:39 <hsbauer> david: issue 2
16:13:14 <sandro> issue-2?
16:13:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- What existing proposal, if any, should be the starting point/default for the JSON design? -- open
16:13:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2
16:13:39 <hsbauer> ... What existing proposal should be the starting point for the JSON issue
16:14:20 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:14:28 <Zakim> +FabGandon
16:14:42 <hsbauer> ... issue 3 also opened
16:15:08 <hsbauer> ... issue of handling action item. after pleading it mark it as pending review.
16:15:44 <ivan> April 13 14 in Amsterdam, at CWI
16:15:46 <davidwood> agenda: FTF1
16:15:49 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:15:57 <hsbauer> ... F2F solid dates and location. Group can start making travel plans.
16:16:18 <sandro> q+
16:16:22 <hsbauer> ... Place is TWI in Amsterdam 13th and 14th of march.
16:16:28 <ivan> s/TWI/CWI/
16:16:32 <zwu2> april?
16:16:37 <hsbauer> ... Ivan will take an action itme.
16:16:46 <ivan> april
16:16:48 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:16:50 <ivan> s/march/April/
16:16:50 <davidwood> action: Guus to make hotel suggestions for FTF1
16:16:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-09].
16:16:54 <hsbauer> ... correction 13th and 14th of April
16:17:11 <sandro> ack sandro
16:17:30 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:17:30 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
16:17:39 <davidwood> agendum: Turtle TF
16:17:39 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
16:17:39 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
16:17:45 <davidwood> agendum: JSON TF
16:17:52 <davidwood> agendum: Graphs TF
16:17:59 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:18:09 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:18:09 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
16:18:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (16%), Sandro (25%), Ivan (34%)
16:18:14 <davidwood> agendum: Discuss Pat Hayes' Proposal for Graphs
16:18:14 <zwu2> q
16:18:16 <zwu2> q+
16:18:20 <davidwood> agendum: AOB
16:18:23 <davidwood> next agendum
16:18:37 <davidwood> ack zwu2
16:18:55 <davidwood> next agendum
16:19:19 <hsbauer> zwu2: who is in charge of setting the meeting place?
16:19:50 <LeeF> I may need to send regrets for the first F2F as it conflicts with the Bio IT conference in Boston, which I am semi-committed too
16:19:54 <hsbauer> david: team contacts set the first f2f out of expediency
16:19:55 <LeeF> s/too/to
16:20:11 <hsbauer> ... 3 next will take input for those
16:20:17 <hsbauer> ... this one is fixed
16:20:22 <gavinc> If I remember right there was no remote presence ability at CWI?
16:20:30 <ivan> q+
16:20:36 <ivan> ack zwu2
16:20:42 <ivan> ack zwu
16:21:05 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:21:06 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:21:07 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:21:19 <hsbauer> I will also not be able to attend the first f2f
16:21:29 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:21:40 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:21:54 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:21:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:22:00 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:22:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (16%)
16:22:11 <sandro> ivan: We will have remote audio for the F2F
16:22:27 <sandro> ivan: we may be able to do some low-quality video (eg skype)
16:22:48 <LeeF> q+
16:22:59 <davidwood> ack LeeF
16:23:30 <hsbauer> Leef: can we start on an agenda for f2f
16:23:30 <davidwood> q?
16:23:49 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:23:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:23:53 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:24:04 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (31%)
16:24:18 <davidwood> next agendum
16:24:31 <ivan> -> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/amsterdam.html is a good page to convince sandro et al to hang around...
16:24:44 <hsbauer> Topic: turtle task force
16:25:24 <hsbauer> david: who will be participating. discussion of mailing list asking for notes on this
16:25:53 <hsbauer> ... important task forces have some level of self organization.
16:26:06 <hsbauer> ... have someone to speak for them.
16:26:09 <AndyS> Step 1 -- people add names to TTL TF page
16:26:35 <davidwood> Input material to Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Inputs_Turtle
16:26:41 <hsbauer> ... most important to settle issue number one and deal with input material
16:27:07 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:27:18 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (19%), Guus_Schreiber (19%), Ivan (10%)
16:27:31 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF_interests
16:27:50 <hsbauer> Guus: can we ask for volunteers for spokespersons
16:27:57 <ivan> q+
16:28:30 <ivan> q-
16:28:53 <hsbauer> ivan: I have contacted dave, no response. Eric T. is a possibility.
16:29:10 <SteveH> s/Eric T./Eric P./
16:29:41 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:29:51 <sandro> hsbauer, that was Nathan
16:29:52 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (74%), AndyS (8%), Ivan (3%)
16:30:09 <sandro> webr3=Nathan, just to confuse you
16:30:30 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:30:30 <AndyS> q+
16:30:43 <hsbauer> afraid I missed the comment can someone summarize
16:30:45 <davidwood> ack andys
16:31:03 <gavinc> Would like to participate in the Turtle TF but don't really feel comfortable being the representative for it?
16:31:21 <hsbauer> andys: json task force has a list of names. Is there a difference between interest and participation.
16:31:45 <hsbauer> david: this may have not been a clear process for differentating.
16:31:54 <manu> q+ to volunteer to represent JSON TF
16:32:11 <hsbauer> Topic: JSON
16:32:22 <davidwood> JSON TF: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON
16:32:26 <hsbauer> david: we have participants, inputs and questions
16:32:52 <hsbauer> manu: I'm interested in acting as spokeperson, but may have a conflict of interest.
16:33:06 <PatHayes> I dont see a conflict of interest, quite the contrary.
16:33:16 <nathan> likewise, no conflict imo
16:33:32 <hsbauer> david: personal opinion, editing spec and coordinating task force are not a conflict of interest
16:33:42 <manu> ACTION: Manu to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work.
16:33:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-09].
16:33:53 <PatHayes> Nice try, but you got lumbered.
16:34:22 <hsbauer> manu: taking an action item to summarize postions on the mailing list for json
16:35:00 <hsbauer> manu: are we discussing task force tech issues here or just summarize issues here.
16:35:11 <hsbauer> david: up to the task force.
16:35:24 <Guus> q+
16:35:29 <manu> q-
16:35:32 <hsbauer> ... clarify participants, coordinators is current issue
16:35:44 <manu> q+ to note that JSON-TF will need a separate call.
16:35:48 <ivan> q+
16:36:14 <davidwood> ack Guus
16:36:16 <hsbauer> manu: json will need a separate call for a time
16:36:18 <manu> q-
16:36:52 <hsbauer> Guus: tech discussions are ok, but will be busy with admin for the first few weeks.
16:37:12 <davidwood> ack manu
16:37:12 <sandro> q?
16:37:17 <nathan> q+ to discuss tracker for TFs
16:37:20 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:37:25 <manu> q?
16:37:49 <davidwood> ack nathan
16:37:49 <Zakim> nathan, you wanted to discuss tracker for TFs
16:38:19 <hsbauer> ivan: setting up a separate call is possible
16:38:20 <manu> +1 to separate tracker entries by product
16:38:26 <AZ> +1 to ivan
16:38:33 <gavinc> +1 and they are already setup: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products
16:38:34 <PatHayes> +1 to ivan
16:38:49 <hsbauer> nathan: can issues be opened by the task force?
16:38:54 <ivan> q-
16:38:57 <sandro> +1 let TF's open issues for themselves
16:39:08 <sandro> q+
16:39:14 <zwu2> I just signed up for the graph tf
16:39:38 <hsbauer> david: this is ok
16:40:15 <sandro> q-
16:40:26 <sandro> topic: Graphs TF
16:40:28 <hsbauer> david: tracker will take care of tracking for all
16:40:39 <hsbauer> Topic: Graph Task Force
16:40:51 <sandro> s/Graph/Graphs/
16:41:13 <sandro> s/topic: Graphs TF//
16:41:20 <hsbauer> david: summarize immediate issues
16:41:40 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:41:44 <manu> I really liked Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text e-mail
16:41:47 <sandro> it's LeeF
16:41:51 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), LeeF (100%)
16:41:54 <Guus> suggest to have a wiki page with terms and their defs, as synthesis of ongoing discussion
16:42:27 <hsbauer> Leef: discussions on serializations, sharing, multiple blank nodes.
16:43:01 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
16:43:02 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:43:13 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (4%), Ivan (4%)
16:43:43 <hsbauer> manu: httpRange-14 bound to come up at some point
16:43:59 <nathan> that's ISSUE-57 on the TAG now, and AWWSW TF covers too (I, nathan, work w/ JAR on that)
16:44:04 <manu> We should coordinate with Jonathan Rees on the W3C TAG and the SPARQL WG
16:44:06 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker re. sparql
16:44:16 <hsbauer> Leef: should liase with sparql working group asap
16:44:41 <sandro> lee: SPARQL WG is moving to Last Call with its notion of Graphs
16:44:55 <AlexHall> what is the specific issue wrt graphs and SPARQL wg?
16:45:00 <hsbauer> who is talking?
16:45:03 <manu> Folks will want to re-read: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ... really good stuff in there.
16:45:25 <PatHayes> Suggest that biggest issue might turn out to be, does a GET get the whole graph or can you find out how big the damn thing is first? That is a real issue, most of them are nomenclature.
16:45:41 <FabGandon> q+ to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:45:50 <davidwood> q?
16:45:54 <manu> PatHayes, HEAD /graph ?
16:46:00 <hsbauer> Leef: if issues related to sparql wg are raised some contact should be made
16:46:01 <davidwood> ack FabGandon
16:46:01 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:46:14 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/#http-get
16:46:24 <nathan> PatHayes, agree, there's also if the refers to both the "subject" and the "graph" - tis a gotcha
16:46:38 <PatHayes> manu, I know , but it feels like a dangerous issue where one WG might close a door that another WG needs to have open.
16:46:43 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:46:55 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:47:07 <cygri> q+
16:47:19 <AndyS> Also: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_graphstore (from SPARQL 1.1 Update)
16:47:26 <davidwood> +1 to PatHayer
16:47:30 <sandro> FabGandon: I think there's a mismatch about graph vs resource here, when you dereference.
16:47:32 <sandro> q+
16:47:32 <hsbauer> FabGandon: some differences between practices especially around dereferencing.
16:47:36 <davidwood> s/Pathayer/PatHayes/
16:48:01 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker.
16:48:03 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:48:09 <hsbauer> ... what people are doing when defrerencing a uri
16:48:19 <manu> I tend to see that most people get information about the resource they're dereferencing - the graph is the representation about the resource.
16:48:33 <hsbauer> cygri: opmitting what happens when you look up a uri
16:48:39 <hsbauer> thanks ivan
16:48:57 <manu> perhaps, that's naive - but that seems to be the data people are publishing now w/ RDFa.
16:49:01 <nathan> so, follow your nose is a pita we need to clarify soon, especially w/ graphs uris, lod, issue-57 on tag and so forth - not in charter? can we get away with /not/ getting consensus and agrement
16:49:17 <manu> and I really don't like 303 redirects for most use cases :/
16:49:27 <hsbauer> cygri: looks up a uri on a person which leads to a document. one does a redirect and another gives an rdf:desc with is a graph
16:49:52 <PatHayes> Is a graph an IR? A g-box surely is, right?
16:49:54 <hsbauer> ... keep in mind that you shouldn't use the same uri for identifying person and graph.
16:49:59 <davidwood> ack sandro
16:50:01 <nathan> PatHayes, yes exactly
16:50:21 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:50:27 <cygri> hsbauer, it's sandro
16:50:32 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (70%), AndyS (4%), Ivan (20%)
16:50:47 <hsbauer> sandro: graph is used with considerable ambiguity
16:50:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text viewpoint
16:51:14 <hsbauer> ... proposed three terms in practice most often
16:51:32 <davidwood> In my view, a g-box is an IR.
16:51:33 <hsbauer> ... g-box is the container what sparql means
16:51:42 <hsbauer> ... g-snap
16:51:53 <PatHayes> Ahem. That is what the RDF specs say a graph is.
16:51:56 <hsbauer> ... g-text serialization
16:52:17 <manu> q+ to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:31 <LeeF> davidwood, I believe that is the view of the SPARQL RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol as well
16:52:33 <PatHayes> BTW, I entirely agree with sandro's analysis and his ghastly but usable terminology.
16:52:44 <davidwood> q?
16:52:48 <davidwood> ack manu
16:52:48 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:48 <sandro> sandro: explaining http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0092.html
16:53:01 <hsbauer> manu: like sandro's email. clarifies what we are talking about.
16:53:28 <cygri> q+ to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:53:30 <PatHayes> Lets agree that g-snaps are RDF graphs, ie abstract sets.
16:53:33 <hsbauer> ... the terms may change but this is what we are talking about.
16:53:36 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:53:36 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:54:06 <webr3> PatHayes, +1 yes lets, and not a REST "value" at some time - purely an RDF concept, abstract graph, set of triples
16:54:13 <hsbauer> cygri: rdf semantics g-snap? need clarification.
16:54:40 <hsbauer> ... triples or model theoritic interpretation.
16:54:53 <hsbauer> ... do these documents say the same thing.
16:54:57 <hsbauer> thanks
16:55:20 <hsbauer> PatHayes: model theory doesn't depend on the graph syntax.
16:55:40 <sandro> s/model/the model/
16:55:44 <hsbauer> ... can be adapted
16:56:03 <hsbauer> ... we wanted a not to concrete definition
16:56:36 <hsbauer> ... feeling that we didn't want a central model attached to a particular style
16:57:27 <hsbauer> ... g-snaps instances of g-box -- apparently the mathematical version of the g-box
16:57:29 <manu> I thought g-snaps were supposed to be an non-serialized snapshot of a g-box
16:57:46 <hsbauer> ... g-box and g-text fit in the web arch story.
16:57:47 <webr3> manu, yes correct, abstract set of triples
16:58:04 <sandro> q?
16:58:19 <hsbauer> ... g-text is a serialization of the rdf-graph my understanding.
16:58:20 <cygri> thanks
16:58:26 <AZ> totally right, Pat
16:58:44 <mbrunati> .)
16:59:01 <manu> g-box is the REST Information Resource, it's state at a point in time is a g-snap... if you do an HTTP GET on the IR, you get a g-text.
16:59:06 <hsbauer> david: action item for pat to summarize the issue in an email
16:59:41 <manu> so, effectively graphs are just another type of IR - fits really well with Web Architecture.
16:59:48 <davidwood> q?
16:59:49 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation
16:59:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-03-09].
17:00:11 <hsbauer> david: moving on from graph issue.
17:00:18 <webr3> I'll write up action 7 now then <yay>
17:00:25 <hsbauer> Topic: F2f agenda
17:01:03 <hsbauer> david: issues on our timeline
17:01:22 <hsbauer> ... first deliverable due in May.
17:01:27 <AndyS> q+
17:01:33 <ivan> q+
17:01:37 <sandro> q+ to clarify documents
17:01:46 <hsbauer> ... work out tf starting points and organization
17:01:55 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:02:13 <sandro> andy: "Recommendation Set" ?
17:02:27 <hsbauer> andys: what do you mean by the rdf recommendation set?
17:02:39 <hsbauer> david: check the Charter
17:02:51 <davidwood> 4.1 Milestones
17:02:51 <davidwood> This section simply refers to “RDF Recommendation Set” as a collection of W3C Recommendations that together define the new version of RDF. The exact editorial structure of these documents is to be defined by the Working Group
17:02:55 <AndyS> q-
17:03:01 <PatHayes> Guus just vanished
17:03:03 <davidwood> ack ivan
17:04:06 <hsbauer> ivan: we have to clarify. what is the work ahead of us. explict charter work, remaining work from last time.
17:04:43 <PatHayes> There are several bugs in the sematnics document that need to be fixed. The sheer editing will take time, measured in at least weeks maybe months, given the need to check all changes.
17:04:53 <hsbauer> david: I agree. Ivan would you take action item to start the wiki for the f2f
17:05:20 <davidwood> action: Ivan to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content
17:05:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content [on Ivan Herman - due 2011-03-09].
17:05:32 <davidwood> q?
17:05:38 <davidwood> ack Sandro
17:05:38 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to clarify documents
17:06:04 <hsbauer> sandro: no clear notion about how much change needs to be done to existing documents
17:06:15 <hsbauer> ... turtle is a new document
17:06:25 <hsbauer> ... are the graphs a new document
17:06:35 <hsbauer> ... json also a new document
17:06:35 <PatHayes> It seems clear that Concepts will need at least a thorough editing.
17:06:54 <PatHayes> Right.
17:07:26 <AndyS> Don't see how "TriG" fits [if appropriate] but /me assuming that it can fit in TTL if need be.
17:07:38 <hsbauer> david: updates needed, propose continue with existing and add turtle and json
17:07:50 <sandro> sandro: strawman proposal -- revise each existing document, add two more, JSON and Turtle
17:07:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's suggestion on creating new TURTLE and RDFinJSON documents, updating the rest.
17:08:12 <PatHayes> +1 to sandro
17:08:18 <webr3> manu, RDF in JSON or RDFable JSON ? v different
17:08:20 <manu> AndyS - I'd expect TRiG to be shoved into TURTLE.
17:08:25 <AndyS> q+ to ask about N-Triples
17:08:51 <PatHayes> galapagos?
17:08:59 <gavinc> Can it have a cape?
17:09:03 <manu> webr3 - RDFable JSON (not fond of just shoving RDF triples into a JSON format)
17:09:15 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:09:26 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SteveH (1%), davidwood (29%), PatH (22%), Sandro (19%), Ivan (5%)
17:09:29 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:09:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about N-Triples
17:09:37 <sandro> sandro: Maybe the quads-turtle can be superturtle, with some extra features
17:10:08 <hsbauer> AndyS: not precisely defined for n-triples can it be under this banner
17:10:17 <PatHayes> Sounds like we need a 'various triples formats' document. Can this be in the primer?
17:10:46 <gavinc> +1 as N-Triples and N-Quads as a subset of Turtle
17:10:47 <hsbauer> ... hoping n-triples refinement in scope
17:11:09 <hsbauer> sandro: keep n-triples around
17:11:10 <webr3> we need registered media type for n-triples
17:11:12 <gavinc> One mime type would be nice.
17:11:17 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:11:18 <AlexHall> I think every implementation of N-Triples treats it as a subset of Turtle anyways, so I don't see much danger there
17:11:28 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (9%), Sandro (45%), AndyS (46%), Ivan (33%)
17:11:41 <AndyS> <s> <o> . is different in N-Triples and Turtle
17:11:44 <PatHayes> utf-8 vs ascii is NICE??
17:11:45 <SteveH> AlexHall, no, many treat it differently
17:12:01 <gavinc> Yeah, as Turtle is UTF-8 and NTriples is ASCII
17:12:21 <webr3> ascii-7 bit, all /text tree is us-ascii 7-bit ..
17:12:48 <sandro> andy: n-triples doesn't resolve uris, so <s> is a valid URI from its perspective, "s".
17:12:49 <hsbauer> AndyS: n-triples doesn't say anything about resolving uris.
17:13:09 <mischat> s/resolving uris/resolving relative uris/
17:13:10 <hsbauer> david: gavin raised mime-type registration
17:13:20 <davidwood> q?
17:13:28 <hsbauer> ivan: unfinished mime-type reg in turtle
17:13:46 <AndyS> Very keen to not have N-Triples being text/plain
17:14:01 <sandro> +1 andy
17:14:07 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS
17:14:19 <hsbauer> david: closing for business. Adjourning.
17:14:34 <hsbauer> ... reminder to participate in task forces.
17:15:26 <hsbauer> ... scribe for next week Christopher Matthews?
17:15:27 <cmatheus> correct. yes.
17:15:33 <cmatheus> I
17:15:40 <hsbauer> ... matheus
17:15:44 <gavinc> AndyS, yeah: text/plain, application/n-triples, application/x-n-triples, text/n-triples, text/x-n-triples ... ah, NTriples
17:15:48 <cmatheus> I don't have full telephone access today.
17:16:01 <Zakim> -manu
17:16:02 <zwu2> thanks
17:16:03 <PatHayes> Bye.
17:16:04 <ivan> zakim, drop me
17:16:04 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:16:04 <mbrunati> bye
17:16:05 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:16:05 <Zakim> -cygri
17:16:06 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:16:06 <Zakim> -mischat
17:16:06 <AZ> bye
17:16:08 <Zakim> -corby
17:16:10 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:16:11 <Zakim> -PatH
17:16:14 <Zakim> -webr3
17:16:17 <Zakim> -SteveH
17:16:18 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:16:20 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
17:16:22 <Zakim> -gavinc
17:16:26 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:16:28 <Zakim> -mbrunati
17:16:32 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:16:34 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:16:36 <Zakim> -??P2
17:16:40 <Zakim> -FabGandon
17:16:42 <Zakim> -AZ
17:16:44 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
17:17:47 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
17:18:57 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000531
</nowiki></pre>

TF-Graphs-UC

Sbauer2 — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 13:39:47 GMT

Sbauer2: /* Applying Named Graphs to a Terminology Service Prototype */

= Graph Use Cases =

=== Storage Use Cases ===
===== Organizing Information =====
When storing RDF information in a graph store, we would like to organize related information into separate graphs. Each graph must be identified with a URI to facilitate retrieval.
===== Slicing datasets according to multiple dimensions =====
Within the [http://www.bbc.co.uk BBC], we want to slice large RDF datasets according to multiple dimensions: statements about individual programmes, access control, 'ownership' of the data (what product owns/maintains what set of triples), versioning, etc. All those graphs are potentially overlapping or contained within each other. Those issues are very common in large organisations using a single, centralised, triple store.

===== Permissions =====
Another purpose in storing RDF content in different graphs is to enforce a permissions model so that sensitive information is not accessed by unauthorized users.
===== Graph Changes Over Time =====
When storing graph information retrieved from a URL external to an application, it becomes important to store snapshots of the location over time. When these graph snapshots are taken, it is useful to annotate each snapshot with information such as retrieval time, HTTP Headers used, HTTP Response returned, and other such items that may have affected the contents of the graph snapshot.

Here is a quick JSON-LD (assuming g-snap support) example showing two graph snapshots. The home page changes between the two snapshots:

G-SNAP #1:
<pre>
{
"@":
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://linkedin.com/in/manusporny>"
}
"dc:date": "2010-04-18T01:24Z"
}
</pre>

G-SNAP #2:
<pre>
{
"@":
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>"
}
"dc:date": "2011-02-01T18:32Z"
}
</pre>

A more complex example involves supporting decentralized product listings via [http://payswarm.com/ PaySwarm]. That is, in PaySwarm products for sale (access to particular post in a blog, or a particular Web App) are expressed in a decentralized manner on a website. The expression of what is for sale is encapsulated in a graph of information about the asset for sale, pricing information and licensing information that is associated with the sale. The combination of this information is effectively an offer of sale:

<pre>
{
"@": "http://wordpress.payswarm.dev/?p=65#listing",
"a": ["gr:Offering", "ps:Listing"],
"com:payee":
[{
"@": "http://wordpress.payswarm.dev/?p=65#listing-payee",
"a": "com:Payee",
"com:currency": "USD",
"com:destination": "https://payswarm.com/i/johnsmith/accounts/1",
"com:rate": "0.05",
"com:rateType": "<com:FlatAmount>",
"rdfs:comment": "Payment for Intro Blog Article by John Smith."
}],
"com:payeeRule":
[{
"a": "com:PayeeRule",
"com:destinationOwnerType": "<ps:Authority>",
"com:maximumRate": "10",
"com:rateType": "<com:InclusivePercentage>"
}],
"ps:assetHash": "905ab5980931053792fc63e40fb4afd0a2f55e02",
"ps:forAsset": "http://wordpress.payswarm.dev/?p=65#asset",
"ps:license": "http://payswarm.com/licenses/blogging",
"ps:licenseHash": "0d8866836917f8ef58af44accb6efab9a10610ad",
"ps:validFrom": "2011-02-26T00:00:00+0000^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>",
"ps:validUntil": "2011-02-27T00:00:00+0000^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>",
"ps:signature":
{
"a": "ps:JsonldSignature",
"dc:created": "2011-02-26T00:00:00Z^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>",
"dc:creator": "https://payswarm.com/i/johnsmith/keys/4",
"ps:signatureValue": "hluj7gTcjGOhxAfTmr04DXZNYwErXKcNBWqwYnjZCxAPlkl7EUl6L7aS0xENmGe3n3VZebWq9mnPH/mv05tzxUYOi6/ssZG+WFNUXFWRA9u+2AdJL5b07U9s51j3tKG6CRB5wGN6w3MPvgM0TspM+VUGHwsR9ePAfpCuFql9zH4="
}
}
</pre>

Note the "ps:validFrom" and "ps:vaildUntil" dates - that information changes once a day. Since that information in the graph changes, the signatures on the graph change as well. Because of the daily changes, it is important that one is able to track snapshots of this graph as it changes from day to day. Storing this data in a graph store is particularly challenging w/o the fundamental concept of a graph snapshot (Graph Literal).

===== Dependencies e.g. trace inferences and their results =====
Using identifying graphs that where consumed and produced by an inference one can can trace the inferences that enriched a triple store to undo some reasoning for instance when the store is updated.
<pre>
:G1 { :Tom ex:manage :ACompany }

:G2 { :Tom rdf:type ex:Manager }

:G2 ex:deducedFrom :G1
</pre>

=== Query Use Cases ===
While query services are not explicitly addressed in the RDF spec, SPARQL does make use of graph IRIs and we should ensure that the semantics of graph identifiers are compatible with the way in which RDF datasets are defined by SPARQL.
===== Find Information In a Graph =====
When a query service processes a query containing a graph identifier, it must resolve the graph identifier to some collection of materialized RDF content that will be returned in the result set.
===== Computed Graphs =====
Often, graphs exposed by a query service are not present in any sort of physical storage, but rather their contents are computed at query time. Examples include:
* A federated query service may define a graph URI to be the union of graphs accessible through other query services.
* A service that does RDB to RDF mapping via [http://www.w3.org/TR/r2rml/ R2RML] may dynamically compute RDF results based on SQL results at query time.
===== Graph URIs as Locations =====
In the situation where a query service is presented with a graph identifier that is not present in local storage, the query service may wish to resolve the graph URI as a URL and make a request to that URL (possibly with conneg) for a document that serializes the content of that graph.

NB: It is important to consider what the linked data "Follow your nose" approach means for identified graphs.

===== Contextual constraints in queries =====
In e-Science projects we can use identified graphs to represent and query contextual metadata. For instance, evidence-based reasoning requires being able to differentiate assertions considered as universally true and assertions which are concurrent hypothesis or interpretations. One can use identified graphs when annotating experiments (e.g. in biology) or analysis (e.g. in geology). Identified graphs are used to represent different contexts within which alternative metadata can be described.

Identifying the graphs also allows us to hierarchically organize the RDF datasets, based on RDFS entailment. When considering RDF datasets as contexts, the root of the hierarchy contains the triples that are true in any context below it i.e. any other node of the hierarchy entails it. The other nodes of the hierarchy represent specific contexts; each one recursively inherits and adds to the triples of its ancestors. Each node then provides a different context for querying and reasoning. When a hypothesis is tested (as a SPARQL query), the context of the test is specified by the identifier of the graph to be used.

A special case is the introduction of temporal or geographical aspects in querying and reasoning over the triple store: a query may be solved considering only the assertions that are true in a specific range of time or geographical area.

A way to address this family of scenarios is to allow a basic algebra of sets over the identified graphs. For instance to allowing to assert inclusion.

<pre>
:G1 { http://dbpedia.org/page/Nice geo:lat 43.703392 ;
geo:long 7.266274 . }

:G2 ex:includes :G1
:G2 { http://dbpedia.org/page/Nice ex:belongsTo http://dbpedia.org/page/France }

:G3 ex:includes :G1
:G3 { http://dbpedia.org/page/Nice ex:belongsTo http://dbpedia.org/page/Italy }

</pre>

=== Provenance Use Cases ===
===== Digital Signatures on Graphs =====

There are a number of ways to create digital signatures on RDF graphs. Often, you do not want to co-mingle the signature information and the graph. Co-mingling signature information in a graph requires the software to use an algorithm to clean the graph in order to generate the signature hash for verification purposes. It also means that it becomes very difficult to sign a graph containing a digital signature at the top-most level. In order to express a digital signature on a graph of information, the idea of a Graph Literal becomes useful. Take the following as an example of a JSON-LD graph that we would like to digitally sign:

<pre>
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>"
}
</pre>

One could sign the graph above by adding a few triples to the graph:

<pre>
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>",
"sig:signature:
{
"a": "<sig:JsonldSignature>",
"sig:signer": "<http://manu.sporny.org/webid#key-5>",
"sig:signatureValue": "OGQzNGVkMzVmMmQ3ODIyOWM32MzQzNmExMgoYzI4ZDY3NjI4NTIyZTk="
}
}
</pre>

However, nobody else could sign that graph without introducing ambiguity as to who signed the graph first. That is, the second signer couldn't sign the initial signer's signature. Therefore, having the concept of a graph snapshot which can be annotated in the same way that triples are annotated becomes very useful. The first signature could be performed like so:

<pre>
{
"@":
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>"
},
"sig:signature:
{
"a": "<sig:JsonldSignature>",
"sig:signer": "<http://manu.sporny.org/webid#key-5>",
"sig:signatureValue": "OGQzNGVkMzVmMmQ3ODIyOWM32MzQzNmExMgoYzI4ZDY3NjI4NTIyZTk="
}
}
</pre>

The example above separates the signature from the data that is being signed, which is good design. The second signature could be performed like so:

<pre>
{
"@":
{
"@":
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>"
},
"sig:signature:
{
"a": "<sig:JsonldSignature>",
"sig:signer": "<http://manu.sporny.org/webid#key-5>",
"sig:signatureValue": "OGQzNGVkMzVmMmQ3ODIyOWM32MzQzNmExMgoYzI4ZDY3NjI4NTIyZTk="
}
"dc:date": "2011-02-26T22:18Z"
},
"sig:signature:
{
"a": "<sig:JsonldSignature>",
"sig:signer": "<http://authority.payswarm.com/webid#key-873>",
"sig:signatureValue": "kMzVmMVDIyOWM32MzI4ZDY3NjI4mQ3OOGQzNGNTIyZTkQzNmExMgoYz="
}
}
</pre>

Note that a "dc:date" has been associated with the initial signed graph. Using this technique, one could verify that:

# The initial graph was signed by a primary author.
# The initial graph w/ signature was annotated and signed by a secondary author.

This is useful when dealing with web-of-trust issues such as trusting graphs which have been cached by third parties. This happens when product listings are cached by companies like Google and then proxied by 3rd parties. You want to ensure that the initial product listing is valid per the asset owner, and that the state of the cache has been verified by Google. This prevents a nefarious proxy of meddling with the information that will be used to perform a financial transaction.

===== Capture elements of the production context =====
A graph may be produced through a variety of means and in very different contexts. For instance it could be the result of some natural language processing or other extractions techniques.
An identified graph may be linked to the context in which it was produced (source, properties, etc.)

<pre>
:G1 { http://dbpedia.org/page/Antibes geo:lat 43.580833 ;
geo:long 7.123889 .
}
:G1 ex:extractedFrom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibes
:G1 dc:date "2010-11-12"^^xsd:date
</pre>

== Separate Ontology Use Case ==

This use case is derived from a proposal to have OWL annotations that
can be collected together into a separate ontology (and that might even
be able to affect the main ontology). The proposal itself can be seen
at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Annotation_System however this "use
case" is somewhat of a modification of the suggestions in the proposal.

The basic need is to be able to generate multiple ontologies from a
single OWL document. One ontology is the ontology that corresponds to
the main information in the document. The other ontology (or
ontologies) would sit alongside the main ontology. These secondary
ontologies might be used to store and reason about things like
provenance or certainty.

Aside from the ability to have multiple ontologies be generated from a
single document, there is the need to be able to have syntactic entities
in the main document show up as semantic entities in the secondary
ontologies. Note that this does *not* directly require reflection, as
the syntactic entities don't have their semantic import in the secondary
ontologies. Any semantic relationship between the main ontology and
secondary ontologies is mediated by relationships outside the formalism
semantics, again so that there is no need for reflection or reification
or ....

So far this is about (OWL) ontologies, not graphs, but it can be turned
into a use case for referenceable graphs either by replacing OWL
ontologies by RDF graphs or by considering RDF graph naming as the
syntactic mechanism for separate ontologies in the RDF encoding of OWL.

== General Annotation Framework ==

As mentionned above, there are use cases for temporal annotation (a graph is valid during a certain time frame), provenance, etc. We want to support reasoning based on these annotation, using a generic approach as defined in <ref name=r1>U. Straccia, N. Lopes, G. Lukacsy, A. Polleres. A General Framework for Representing and Reasoning with Annotated Semantic Web Data. In ''Proceedings of the Twenty-Fourth AAAI Conference on Artificial Intelligence (AAAI-10)'', AAAI Press, 2010. http://axel.deri.ie/publications/stra-etal-2010AAAI.pdf</ref><ref name=r2>N. Lopes, A. Zimmermann, A. Hogan, G. Lukácsy, A. Polleres, U. Straccia, S. Decker. RDF Needs Annotations. In ''RDF Next Steps'', June 2010. http://www.w3.org/2009/12/rdf-ws/papers/ws09</ref><ref name=r3>N. Lopes, A. Polleres, U. Straccia, A. Zimmermann, AnQL: SPARQLing Up Annotated RDFS. In ''Proceedings of the International Semantic Web Conference (ISWC-10)'', no. 6496 in Lecture Notes in Computer Science, Springer-Verlag, 2010, pp.518–533. http://iswc2010.semanticweb.org/pdf/51.pdf</ref>. For instance, in the temporal setting (i.e., where graphs or triples are annotated with time-frames), if:

<pre>
ex:chadhurley rdf:type ex:YoutubeEmployee . [2005,2010]
</pre>

(that, the triple holds at least between 2005 and 2010) and:

<pre>
ex:YoutubeEmployee rdf:type ex:GoogleEmployee . [2006,2011]
</pre>

then:

<pre>
ex:chadhurley rdf:type ex:GoogleEmployee . [2006,2010]
</pre>

If annotations exist in a dataset, one can query for them, asking for instance when a triple holds (e.g., "who was a GoogleEmployee and when?").
This generalises to other types of annotations, as described in <ref name=r1/><ref name=r2/><ref name=r3/>. E.g., with provenance annotation:

<pre>
foaf:Person rdfs:subClassOf foaf:Agent . foaf:
ex:chadhurley rdf:type foaf:Person . dbpedia:
</pre>

one can infer:

<pre>
ex:chadhurley rdf:type foaf:Agen . foaf: \and dbpedia:
</pre>

A typical use case for including provenance in the data is when exchanging datasets coming from multiple sources. This is for instance done for the Billion Triple Challenge, which in fact does not provide a billion triples but a billion quadruple, so that sources are identified.

Following the same generic framework, it is also possible to deal with fuzzy, probabilistic and uncertain information, e.g.,:

<pre>
ex:pictureAreaXYZ rdf:type ex:HumanFace . 0.82
ex:HumanFace rdfs:subClassOf ex:Ellipse . 0.75
</pre>

Fuzzy-annotated RDF are likely to be produced automatically by tools relying on statistical data or heuristic-based algorithm. Terminological statements with uncertainty are very common outputs of ontology matching algorithms.

In all these situations, identifying the triples or graphs to which attach the annotations is necessary.

<references/>

== Applying Named Graphs to a Terminology Service Prototype ==

Proposed use case for a LexEVS RDF triple store prototype.

LexRDF is an prototype implementation of LexEVS on an RDF triple store. http://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/Publications/CEUR-WS/Vol-521/paper2.pdf

Among its assertions is an expression of definition source using reification to resolve a non-preferred term definition. An example assertion is expressed as follows:

{| border="1" align="center" style="text-align:center;"
! Subject
! Predicate
! Object
|-
|FAO:0000025
|rdf:type
|owl:Class
|-
|FAO:0000025
|skos:prefLabel
|mid reproductive
|-
|FAO:0000025
|skos:altLabel
|“principal growth stages 6.1-6.3"
|-
|A1
|rdf:type
|rdf:Statement
|-
|A1
|rdf:subject
|FAO:0000025
|-
|A1
|rdf:predicate
|skos:definition
|-
|A1
|rdf:object
|“middle stages of reproductive phase."
|-
|A1
|dc:source
|TAIR:lr
|}

As a Named Graph implementation:

LexRDF:Graph1{
FAO:0000025 rdf:type owl:Class
FAO:0000025 skos:prefLabel “mid reproduction”
FAO:0000025 skos:altLabel “principal growth stages 6.1-6.3"
}
LexRDF:_Graph2{
FAO:0000025 skos:definition ”middle stages of reproduction”
}
LexRDF:Graph3{
LexRDF:_Graph2 dc:source TAIR:lr
}

Named Graphs could provide some flexibility in representation in this prototype and eliminate some of the problems associated with overhead when using reification.

TF-Graphs-UC

Sbauer2 — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 02:09:57 GMT

Sbauer2: /* Applying Named Graphs to a Terminology Service Prototype */

= Graph Use Cases =

=== Storage Use Cases ===
===== Organizing Information =====
When storing RDF information in a graph store, we would like to organize related information into separate graphs. Each graph must be identified with a URI to facilitate retrieval.
===== Slicing datasets according to multiple dimensions =====
Within the [http://www.bbc.co.uk BBC], we want to slice large RDF datasets according to multiple dimensions: statements about individual programmes, access control, 'ownership' of the data (what product owns/maintains what set of triples), versioning, etc. All those graphs are potentially overlapping or contained within each other. Those issues are very common in large organisations using a single, centralised, triple store.

===== Permissions =====
Another purpose in storing RDF content in different graphs is to enforce a permissions model so that sensitive information is not accessed by unauthorized users.
===== Graph Changes Over Time =====
When storing graph information retrieved from a URL external to an application, it becomes important to store snapshots of the location over time. When these graph snapshots are taken, it is useful to annotate each snapshot with information such as retrieval time, HTTP Headers used, HTTP Response returned, and other such items that may have affected the contents of the graph snapshot.

Here is a quick JSON-LD (assuming g-snap support) example showing two graph snapshots. The home page changes between the two snapshots:

G-SNAP #1:
<pre>
{
"@":
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://linkedin.com/in/manusporny>"
}
"dc:date": "2010-04-18T01:24Z"
}
</pre>

G-SNAP #2:
<pre>
{
"@":
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>"
}
"dc:date": "2011-02-01T18:32Z"
}
</pre>

A more complex example involves supporting decentralized product listings via [http://payswarm.com/ PaySwarm]. That is, in PaySwarm products for sale (access to particular post in a blog, or a particular Web App) are expressed in a decentralized manner on a website. The expression of what is for sale is encapsulated in a graph of information about the asset for sale, pricing information and licensing information that is associated with the sale. The combination of this information is effectively an offer of sale:

<pre>
{
"@": "http://wordpress.payswarm.dev/?p=65#listing",
"a": ["gr:Offering", "ps:Listing"],
"com:payee":
[{
"@": "http://wordpress.payswarm.dev/?p=65#listing-payee",
"a": "com:Payee",
"com:currency": "USD",
"com:destination": "https://payswarm.com/i/johnsmith/accounts/1",
"com:rate": "0.05",
"com:rateType": "<com:FlatAmount>",
"rdfs:comment": "Payment for Intro Blog Article by John Smith."
}],
"com:payeeRule":
[{
"a": "com:PayeeRule",
"com:destinationOwnerType": "<ps:Authority>",
"com:maximumRate": "10",
"com:rateType": "<com:InclusivePercentage>"
}],
"ps:assetHash": "905ab5980931053792fc63e40fb4afd0a2f55e02",
"ps:forAsset": "http://wordpress.payswarm.dev/?p=65#asset",
"ps:license": "http://payswarm.com/licenses/blogging",
"ps:licenseHash": "0d8866836917f8ef58af44accb6efab9a10610ad",
"ps:validFrom": "2011-02-26T00:00:00+0000^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>",
"ps:validUntil": "2011-02-27T00:00:00+0000^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>",
"ps:signature":
{
"a": "ps:JsonldSignature",
"dc:created": "2011-02-26T00:00:00Z^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>",
"dc:creator": "https://payswarm.com/i/johnsmith/keys/4",
"ps:signatureValue": "hluj7gTcjGOhxAfTmr04DXZNYwErXKcNBWqwYnjZCxAPlkl7EUl6L7aS0xENmGe3n3VZebWq9mnPH/mv05tzxUYOi6/ssZG+WFNUXFWRA9u+2AdJL5b07U9s51j3tKG6CRB5wGN6w3MPvgM0TspM+VUGHwsR9ePAfpCuFql9zH4="
}
}
</pre>

Note the "ps:validFrom" and "ps:vaildUntil" dates - that information changes once a day. Since that information in the graph changes, the signatures on the graph change as well. Because of the daily changes, it is important that one is able to track snapshots of this graph as it changes from day to day. Storing this data in a graph store is particularly challenging w/o the fundamental concept of a graph snapshot (Graph Literal).

===== Dependencies e.g. trace inferences and their results =====
Using identifying graphs that where consumed and produced by an inference one can can trace the inferences that enriched a triple store to undo some reasoning for instance when the store is updated.
<pre>
:G1 { :Tom ex:manage :ACompany }

:G2 { :Tom rdf:type ex:Manager }

:G2 ex:deducedFrom :G1
</pre>

=== Query Use Cases ===
While query services are not explicitly addressed in the RDF spec, SPARQL does make use of graph IRIs and we should ensure that the semantics of graph identifiers are compatible with the way in which RDF datasets are defined by SPARQL.
===== Find Information In a Graph =====
When a query service processes a query containing a graph identifier, it must resolve the graph identifier to some collection of materialized RDF content that will be returned in the result set.
===== Computed Graphs =====
Often, graphs exposed by a query service are not present in any sort of physical storage, but rather their contents are computed at query time. Examples include:
* A federated query service may define a graph URI to be the union of graphs accessible through other query services.
* A service that does RDB to RDF mapping via [http://www.w3.org/TR/r2rml/ R2RML] may dynamically compute RDF results based on SQL results at query time.
===== Graph URIs as Locations =====
In the situation where a query service is presented with a graph identifier that is not present in local storage, the query service may wish to resolve the graph URI as a URL and make a request to that URL (possibly with conneg) for a document that serializes the content of that graph.

NB: It is important to consider what the linked data "Follow your nose" approach means for identified graphs.

===== Contextual constraints in queries =====
In e-Science projects we can use identified graphs to represent and query contextual metadata. For instance, evidence-based reasoning requires being able to differentiate assertions considered as universally true and assertions which are concurrent hypothesis or interpretations. One can use identified graphs when annotating experiments (e.g. in biology) or analysis (e.g. in geology). Identified graphs are used to represent different contexts within which alternative metadata can be described.

Identifying the graphs also allows us to hierarchically organize the RDF datasets, based on RDFS entailment. When considering RDF datasets as contexts, the root of the hierarchy contains the triples that are true in any context below it i.e. any other node of the hierarchy entails it. The other nodes of the hierarchy represent specific contexts; each one recursively inherits and adds to the triples of its ancestors. Each node then provides a different context for querying and reasoning. When a hypothesis is tested (as a SPARQL query), the context of the test is specified by the identifier of the graph to be used.

A special case is the introduction of temporal or geographical aspects in querying and reasoning over the triple store: a query may be solved considering only the assertions that are true in a specific range of time or geographical area.

A way to address this family of scenarios is to allow a basic algebra of sets over the identified graphs. For instance to allowing to assert inclusion.

<pre>
:G1 { http://dbpedia.org/page/Nice geo:lat 43.703392 ;
geo:long 7.266274 . }

:G2 ex:includes :G1
:G2 { http://dbpedia.org/page/Nice ex:belongsTo http://dbpedia.org/page/France }

:G3 ex:includes :G1
:G3 { http://dbpedia.org/page/Nice ex:belongsTo http://dbpedia.org/page/Italy }

</pre>

=== Provenance Use Cases ===
===== Digital Signatures on Graphs =====

There are a number of ways to create digital signatures on RDF graphs. Often, you do not want to co-mingle the signature information and the graph. Co-mingling signature information in a graph requires the software to use an algorithm to clean the graph in order to generate the signature hash for verification purposes. It also means that it becomes very difficult to sign a graph containing a digital signature at the top-most level. In order to express a digital signature on a graph of information, the idea of a Graph Literal becomes useful. Take the following as an example of a JSON-LD graph that we would like to digitally sign:

<pre>
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>"
}
</pre>

One could sign the graph above by adding a few triples to the graph:

<pre>
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>",
"sig:signature:
{
"a": "<sig:JsonldSignature>",
"sig:signer": "<http://manu.sporny.org/webid#key-5>",
"sig:signatureValue": "OGQzNGVkMzVmMmQ3ODIyOWM32MzQzNmExMgoYzI4ZDY3NjI4NTIyZTk="
}
}
</pre>

However, nobody else could sign that graph without introducing ambiguity as to who signed the graph first. That is, the second signer couldn't sign the initial signer's signature. Therefore, having the concept of a graph snapshot which can be annotated in the same way that triples are annotated becomes very useful. The first signature could be performed like so:

<pre>
{
"@":
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>"
},
"sig:signature:
{
"a": "<sig:JsonldSignature>",
"sig:signer": "<http://manu.sporny.org/webid#key-5>",
"sig:signatureValue": "OGQzNGVkMzVmMmQ3ODIyOWM32MzQzNmExMgoYzI4ZDY3NjI4NTIyZTk="
}
}
</pre>

The example above separates the signature from the data that is being signed, which is good design. The second signature could be performed like so:

<pre>
{
"@":
{
"@":
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>"
},
"sig:signature:
{
"a": "<sig:JsonldSignature>",
"sig:signer": "<http://manu.sporny.org/webid#key-5>",
"sig:signatureValue": "OGQzNGVkMzVmMmQ3ODIyOWM32MzQzNmExMgoYzI4ZDY3NjI4NTIyZTk="
}
"dc:date": "2011-02-26T22:18Z"
},
"sig:signature:
{
"a": "<sig:JsonldSignature>",
"sig:signer": "<http://authority.payswarm.com/webid#key-873>",
"sig:signatureValue": "kMzVmMVDIyOWM32MzI4ZDY3NjI4mQ3OOGQzNGNTIyZTkQzNmExMgoYz="
}
}
</pre>

Note that a "dc:date" has been associated with the initial signed graph. Using this technique, one could verify that:

# The initial graph was signed by a primary author.
# The initial graph w/ signature was annotated and signed by a secondary author.

This is useful when dealing with web-of-trust issues such as trusting graphs which have been cached by third parties. This happens when product listings are cached by companies like Google and then proxied by 3rd parties. You want to ensure that the initial product listing is valid per the asset owner, and that the state of the cache has been verified by Google. This prevents a nefarious proxy of meddling with the information that will be used to perform a financial transaction.

===== Capture elements of the production context =====
A graph may be produced through a variety of means and in very different contexts. For instance it could be the result of some natural language processing or other extractions techniques.
An identified graph may be linked to the context in which it was produced (source, properties, etc.)

<pre>
:G1 { http://dbpedia.org/page/Antibes geo:lat 43.580833 ;
geo:long 7.123889 .
}
:G1 ex:extractedFrom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibes
:G1 dc:date "2010-11-12"^^xsd:date
</pre>

== Separate Ontology Use Case ==

This use case is derived from a proposal to have OWL annotations that
can be collected together into a separate ontology (and that might even
be able to affect the main ontology). The proposal itself can be seen
at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Annotation_System however this "use
case" is somewhat of a modification of the suggestions in the proposal.

The basic need is to be able to generate multiple ontologies from a
single OWL document. One ontology is the ontology that corresponds to
the main information in the document. The other ontology (or
ontologies) would sit alongside the main ontology. These secondary
ontologies might be used to store and reason about things like
provenance or certainty.

Aside from the ability to have multiple ontologies be generated from a
single document, there is the need to be able to have syntactic entities
in the main document show up as semantic entities in the secondary
ontologies. Note that this does *not* directly require reflection, as
the syntactic entities don't have their semantic import in the secondary
ontologies. Any semantic relationship between the main ontology and
secondary ontologies is mediated by relationships outside the formalism
semantics, again so that there is no need for reflection or reification
or ....

So far this is about (OWL) ontologies, not graphs, but it can be turned
into a use case for referenceable graphs either by replacing OWL
ontologies by RDF graphs or by considering RDF graph naming as the
syntactic mechanism for separate ontologies in the RDF encoding of OWL.

== General Annotation Framework ==

As mentionned above, there are use cases for temporal annotation (a graph is valid during a certain time frame), provenance, etc. We want to support reasoning based on these annotation, using a generic approach as defined in <ref name=r1>U. Straccia, N. Lopes, G. Lukacsy, A. Polleres. A General Framework for Representing and Reasoning with Annotated Semantic Web Data. In ''Proceedings of the Twenty-Fourth AAAI Conference on Artificial Intelligence (AAAI-10)'', AAAI Press, 2010. http://axel.deri.ie/publications/stra-etal-2010AAAI.pdf</ref><ref name=r2>N. Lopes, A. Zimmermann, A. Hogan, G. Lukácsy, A. Polleres, U. Straccia, S. Decker. RDF Needs Annotations. In ''RDF Next Steps'', June 2010. http://www.w3.org/2009/12/rdf-ws/papers/ws09</ref><ref name=r3>N. Lopes, A. Polleres, U. Straccia, A. Zimmermann, AnQL: SPARQLing Up Annotated RDFS. In ''Proceedings of the International Semantic Web Conference (ISWC-10)'', no. 6496 in Lecture Notes in Computer Science, Springer-Verlag, 2010, pp.518–533. http://iswc2010.semanticweb.org/pdf/51.pdf</ref>. For instance, in the temporal setting (i.e., where graphs or triples are annotated with time-frames), if:

<pre>
ex:chadhurley rdf:type ex:YoutubeEmployee . [2005,2010]
</pre>

(that, the triple holds at least between 2005 and 2010) and:

<pre>
ex:YoutubeEmployee rdf:type ex:GoogleEmployee . [2006,2011]
</pre>

then:

<pre>
ex:chadhurley rdf:type ex:GoogleEmployee . [2006,2010]
</pre>

If annotations exist in a dataset, one can query for them, asking for instance when a triple holds (e.g., "who was a GoogleEmployee and when?").
This generalises to other types of annotations, as described in <ref name=r1/><ref name=r2/><ref name=r3/>. E.g., with provenance annotation:

<pre>
foaf:Person rdfs:subClassOf foaf:Agent . foaf:
ex:chadhurley rdf:type foaf:Person . dbpedia:
</pre>

one can infer:

<pre>
ex:chadhurley rdf:type foaf:Agen . foaf: \and dbpedia:
</pre>

A typical use case for including provenance in the data is when exchanging datasets coming from multiple sources. This is for instance done for the Billion Triple Challenge, which in fact does not provide a billion triples but a billion quadruple, so that sources are identified.

Following the same generic framework, it is also possible to deal with fuzzy, probabilistic and uncertain information, e.g.,:

<pre>
ex:pictureAreaXYZ rdf:type ex:HumanFace . 0.82
ex:HumanFace rdfs:subClassOf ex:Ellipse . 0.75
</pre>

Fuzzy-annotated RDF are likely to be produced automatically by tools relying on statistical data or heuristic-based algorithm. Terminological statements with uncertainty are very common outputs of ontology matching algorithms.

In all these situations, identifying the triples or graphs to which attach the annotations is necessary.

<references/>

== Applying Named Graphs to a Terminology Service Prototype ==

Proposed use case for a LexEVS RDF triple store prototype.

LexRDF is an prototype implementation of LexEVS on an RDF triple store. http://www.deg.byu.edu/ctao/papers/LexRDF--SemRus-v2.pdf.

Among its assertions is an expression of definition source using reification to resolve a non-preferred term definition. An example assertion is expressed as follows:

{| border="1" align="center" style="text-align:center;"
! Subject
! Predicate
! Object
|-
|FAO:0000025
|rdf:type
|owl:Class
|-
|FAO:0000025
|skos:prefLabel
|mid reproductive
|-
|FAO:0000025
|skos:altLabel
|“principal growth stages 6.1-6.3"
|-
|A1
|rdf:type
|rdf:Statement
|-
|A1
|rdf:subject
|FAO:0000025
|-
|A1
|rdf:predicate
|skos:definition
|-
|A1
|rdf:object
|“middle stages of reproductive phase."
|-
|A1
|dc:source
|TAIR:lr
|}

As a Named Graph implementation:

LexRDF:Graph1{
FAO:0000025 rdf:type owl:Class
FAO:0000025 skos:prefLabel “mid reproduction”
FAO:0000025 skos:altLabel “principal growth stages 6.1-6.3"
}
LexRDF:_Graph2{
FAO:0000025 skos:definition ”middle stages of reproduction”
}
LexRDF:Graph3{
LexRDF:_Graph2 dc:source TAIR:lr
}

Named Graphs could provide some flexibility in representation in this prototype and eliminate some of the problems associated with overhead when using reification.

TF-Graphs-UC

Sbauer2 — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 02:08:12 GMT

Sbauer2: /* General Annotation Framework */

= Graph Use Cases =

=== Storage Use Cases ===
===== Organizing Information =====
When storing RDF information in a graph store, we would like to organize related information into separate graphs. Each graph must be identified with a URI to facilitate retrieval.
===== Slicing datasets according to multiple dimensions =====
Within the [http://www.bbc.co.uk BBC], we want to slice large RDF datasets according to multiple dimensions: statements about individual programmes, access control, 'ownership' of the data (what product owns/maintains what set of triples), versioning, etc. All those graphs are potentially overlapping or contained within each other. Those issues are very common in large organisations using a single, centralised, triple store.

===== Permissions =====
Another purpose in storing RDF content in different graphs is to enforce a permissions model so that sensitive information is not accessed by unauthorized users.
===== Graph Changes Over Time =====
When storing graph information retrieved from a URL external to an application, it becomes important to store snapshots of the location over time. When these graph snapshots are taken, it is useful to annotate each snapshot with information such as retrieval time, HTTP Headers used, HTTP Response returned, and other such items that may have affected the contents of the graph snapshot.

Here is a quick JSON-LD (assuming g-snap support) example showing two graph snapshots. The home page changes between the two snapshots:

G-SNAP #1:
<pre>
{
"@":
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://linkedin.com/in/manusporny>"
}
"dc:date": "2010-04-18T01:24Z"
}
</pre>

G-SNAP #2:
<pre>
{
"@":
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>"
}
"dc:date": "2011-02-01T18:32Z"
}
</pre>

A more complex example involves supporting decentralized product listings via [http://payswarm.com/ PaySwarm]. That is, in PaySwarm products for sale (access to particular post in a blog, or a particular Web App) are expressed in a decentralized manner on a website. The expression of what is for sale is encapsulated in a graph of information about the asset for sale, pricing information and licensing information that is associated with the sale. The combination of this information is effectively an offer of sale:

<pre>
{
"@": "http://wordpress.payswarm.dev/?p=65#listing",
"a": ["gr:Offering", "ps:Listing"],
"com:payee":
[{
"@": "http://wordpress.payswarm.dev/?p=65#listing-payee",
"a": "com:Payee",
"com:currency": "USD",
"com:destination": "https://payswarm.com/i/johnsmith/accounts/1",
"com:rate": "0.05",
"com:rateType": "<com:FlatAmount>",
"rdfs:comment": "Payment for Intro Blog Article by John Smith."
}],
"com:payeeRule":
[{
"a": "com:PayeeRule",
"com:destinationOwnerType": "<ps:Authority>",
"com:maximumRate": "10",
"com:rateType": "<com:InclusivePercentage>"
}],
"ps:assetHash": "905ab5980931053792fc63e40fb4afd0a2f55e02",
"ps:forAsset": "http://wordpress.payswarm.dev/?p=65#asset",
"ps:license": "http://payswarm.com/licenses/blogging",
"ps:licenseHash": "0d8866836917f8ef58af44accb6efab9a10610ad",
"ps:validFrom": "2011-02-26T00:00:00+0000^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>",
"ps:validUntil": "2011-02-27T00:00:00+0000^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>",
"ps:signature":
{
"a": "ps:JsonldSignature",
"dc:created": "2011-02-26T00:00:00Z^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>",
"dc:creator": "https://payswarm.com/i/johnsmith/keys/4",
"ps:signatureValue": "hluj7gTcjGOhxAfTmr04DXZNYwErXKcNBWqwYnjZCxAPlkl7EUl6L7aS0xENmGe3n3VZebWq9mnPH/mv05tzxUYOi6/ssZG+WFNUXFWRA9u+2AdJL5b07U9s51j3tKG6CRB5wGN6w3MPvgM0TspM+VUGHwsR9ePAfpCuFql9zH4="
}
}
</pre>

Note the "ps:validFrom" and "ps:vaildUntil" dates - that information changes once a day. Since that information in the graph changes, the signatures on the graph change as well. Because of the daily changes, it is important that one is able to track snapshots of this graph as it changes from day to day. Storing this data in a graph store is particularly challenging w/o the fundamental concept of a graph snapshot (Graph Literal).

===== Dependencies e.g. trace inferences and their results =====
Using identifying graphs that where consumed and produced by an inference one can can trace the inferences that enriched a triple store to undo some reasoning for instance when the store is updated.
<pre>
:G1 { :Tom ex:manage :ACompany }

:G2 { :Tom rdf:type ex:Manager }

:G2 ex:deducedFrom :G1
</pre>

=== Query Use Cases ===
While query services are not explicitly addressed in the RDF spec, SPARQL does make use of graph IRIs and we should ensure that the semantics of graph identifiers are compatible with the way in which RDF datasets are defined by SPARQL.
===== Find Information In a Graph =====
When a query service processes a query containing a graph identifier, it must resolve the graph identifier to some collection of materialized RDF content that will be returned in the result set.
===== Computed Graphs =====
Often, graphs exposed by a query service are not present in any sort of physical storage, but rather their contents are computed at query time. Examples include:
* A federated query service may define a graph URI to be the union of graphs accessible through other query services.
* A service that does RDB to RDF mapping via [http://www.w3.org/TR/r2rml/ R2RML] may dynamically compute RDF results based on SQL results at query time.
===== Graph URIs as Locations =====
In the situation where a query service is presented with a graph identifier that is not present in local storage, the query service may wish to resolve the graph URI as a URL and make a request to that URL (possibly with conneg) for a document that serializes the content of that graph.

NB: It is important to consider what the linked data "Follow your nose" approach means for identified graphs.

===== Contextual constraints in queries =====
In e-Science projects we can use identified graphs to represent and query contextual metadata. For instance, evidence-based reasoning requires being able to differentiate assertions considered as universally true and assertions which are concurrent hypothesis or interpretations. One can use identified graphs when annotating experiments (e.g. in biology) or analysis (e.g. in geology). Identified graphs are used to represent different contexts within which alternative metadata can be described.

Identifying the graphs also allows us to hierarchically organize the RDF datasets, based on RDFS entailment. When considering RDF datasets as contexts, the root of the hierarchy contains the triples that are true in any context below it i.e. any other node of the hierarchy entails it. The other nodes of the hierarchy represent specific contexts; each one recursively inherits and adds to the triples of its ancestors. Each node then provides a different context for querying and reasoning. When a hypothesis is tested (as a SPARQL query), the context of the test is specified by the identifier of the graph to be used.

A special case is the introduction of temporal or geographical aspects in querying and reasoning over the triple store: a query may be solved considering only the assertions that are true in a specific range of time or geographical area.

A way to address this family of scenarios is to allow a basic algebra of sets over the identified graphs. For instance to allowing to assert inclusion.

<pre>
:G1 { http://dbpedia.org/page/Nice geo:lat 43.703392 ;
geo:long 7.266274 . }

:G2 ex:includes :G1
:G2 { http://dbpedia.org/page/Nice ex:belongsTo http://dbpedia.org/page/France }

:G3 ex:includes :G1
:G3 { http://dbpedia.org/page/Nice ex:belongsTo http://dbpedia.org/page/Italy }

</pre>

=== Provenance Use Cases ===
===== Digital Signatures on Graphs =====

There are a number of ways to create digital signatures on RDF graphs. Often, you do not want to co-mingle the signature information and the graph. Co-mingling signature information in a graph requires the software to use an algorithm to clean the graph in order to generate the signature hash for verification purposes. It also means that it becomes very difficult to sign a graph containing a digital signature at the top-most level. In order to express a digital signature on a graph of information, the idea of a Graph Literal becomes useful. Take the following as an example of a JSON-LD graph that we would like to digitally sign:

<pre>
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>"
}
</pre>

One could sign the graph above by adding a few triples to the graph:

<pre>
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>",
"sig:signature:
{
"a": "<sig:JsonldSignature>",
"sig:signer": "<http://manu.sporny.org/webid#key-5>",
"sig:signatureValue": "OGQzNGVkMzVmMmQ3ODIyOWM32MzQzNmExMgoYzI4ZDY3NjI4NTIyZTk="
}
}
</pre>

However, nobody else could sign that graph without introducing ambiguity as to who signed the graph first. That is, the second signer couldn't sign the initial signer's signature. Therefore, having the concept of a graph snapshot which can be annotated in the same way that triples are annotated becomes very useful. The first signature could be performed like so:

<pre>
{
"@":
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>"
},
"sig:signature:
{
"a": "<sig:JsonldSignature>",
"sig:signer": "<http://manu.sporny.org/webid#key-5>",
"sig:signatureValue": "OGQzNGVkMzVmMmQ3ODIyOWM32MzQzNmExMgoYzI4ZDY3NjI4NTIyZTk="
}
}
</pre>

The example above separates the signature from the data that is being signed, which is good design. The second signature could be performed like so:

<pre>
{
"@":
{
"@":
{
"a": "<foaf:Person>",
"foaf:name": "Manu Sporny",
"foaf:homepage": "<http://manu.sporny.org/>"
},
"sig:signature:
{
"a": "<sig:JsonldSignature>",
"sig:signer": "<http://manu.sporny.org/webid#key-5>",
"sig:signatureValue": "OGQzNGVkMzVmMmQ3ODIyOWM32MzQzNmExMgoYzI4ZDY3NjI4NTIyZTk="
}
"dc:date": "2011-02-26T22:18Z"
},
"sig:signature:
{
"a": "<sig:JsonldSignature>",
"sig:signer": "<http://authority.payswarm.com/webid#key-873>",
"sig:signatureValue": "kMzVmMVDIyOWM32MzI4ZDY3NjI4mQ3OOGQzNGNTIyZTkQzNmExMgoYz="
}
}
</pre>

Note that a "dc:date" has been associated with the initial signed graph. Using this technique, one could verify that:

# The initial graph was signed by a primary author.
# The initial graph w/ signature was annotated and signed by a secondary author.

This is useful when dealing with web-of-trust issues such as trusting graphs which have been cached by third parties. This happens when product listings are cached by companies like Google and then proxied by 3rd parties. You want to ensure that the initial product listing is valid per the asset owner, and that the state of the cache has been verified by Google. This prevents a nefarious proxy of meddling with the information that will be used to perform a financial transaction.

===== Capture elements of the production context =====
A graph may be produced through a variety of means and in very different contexts. For instance it could be the result of some natural language processing or other extractions techniques.
An identified graph may be linked to the context in which it was produced (source, properties, etc.)

<pre>
:G1 { http://dbpedia.org/page/Antibes geo:lat 43.580833 ;
geo:long 7.123889 .
}
:G1 ex:extractedFrom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibes
:G1 dc:date "2010-11-12"^^xsd:date
</pre>

== Separate Ontology Use Case ==

This use case is derived from a proposal to have OWL annotations that
can be collected together into a separate ontology (and that might even
be able to affect the main ontology). The proposal itself can be seen
at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Annotation_System however this "use
case" is somewhat of a modification of the suggestions in the proposal.

The basic need is to be able to generate multiple ontologies from a
single OWL document. One ontology is the ontology that corresponds to
the main information in the document. The other ontology (or
ontologies) would sit alongside the main ontology. These secondary
ontologies might be used to store and reason about things like
provenance or certainty.

Aside from the ability to have multiple ontologies be generated from a
single document, there is the need to be able to have syntactic entities
in the main document show up as semantic entities in the secondary
ontologies. Note that this does *not* directly require reflection, as
the syntactic entities don't have their semantic import in the secondary
ontologies. Any semantic relationship between the main ontology and
secondary ontologies is mediated by relationships outside the formalism
semantics, again so that there is no need for reflection or reification
or ....

So far this is about (OWL) ontologies, not graphs, but it can be turned
into a use case for referenceable graphs either by replacing OWL
ontologies by RDF graphs or by considering RDF graph naming as the
syntactic mechanism for separate ontologies in the RDF encoding of OWL.

== General Annotation Framework ==

As mentionned above, there are use cases for temporal annotation (a graph is valid during a certain time frame), provenance, etc. We want to support reasoning based on these annotation, using a generic approach as defined in <ref name=r1>U. Straccia, N. Lopes, G. Lukacsy, A. Polleres. A General Framework for Representing and Reasoning with Annotated Semantic Web Data. In ''Proceedings of the Twenty-Fourth AAAI Conference on Artificial Intelligence (AAAI-10)'', AAAI Press, 2010. http://axel.deri.ie/publications/stra-etal-2010AAAI.pdf</ref><ref name=r2>N. Lopes, A. Zimmermann, A. Hogan, G. Lukácsy, A. Polleres, U. Straccia, S. Decker. RDF Needs Annotations. In ''RDF Next Steps'', June 2010. http://www.w3.org/2009/12/rdf-ws/papers/ws09</ref><ref name=r3>N. Lopes, A. Polleres, U. Straccia, A. Zimmermann, AnQL: SPARQLing Up Annotated RDFS. In ''Proceedings of the International Semantic Web Conference (ISWC-10)'', no. 6496 in Lecture Notes in Computer Science, Springer-Verlag, 2010, pp.518–533. http://iswc2010.semanticweb.org/pdf/51.pdf</ref>. For instance, in the temporal setting (i.e., where graphs or triples are annotated with time-frames), if:

<pre>
ex:chadhurley rdf:type ex:YoutubeEmployee . [2005,2010]
</pre>

(that, the triple holds at least between 2005 and 2010) and:

<pre>
ex:YoutubeEmployee rdf:type ex:GoogleEmployee . [2006,2011]
</pre>

then:

<pre>
ex:chadhurley rdf:type ex:GoogleEmployee . [2006,2010]
</pre>

If annotations exist in a dataset, one can query for them, asking for instance when a triple holds (e.g., "who was a GoogleEmployee and when?").
This generalises to other types of annotations, as described in <ref name=r1/><ref name=r2/><ref name=r3/>. E.g., with provenance annotation:

<pre>
foaf:Person rdfs:subClassOf foaf:Agent . foaf:
ex:chadhurley rdf:type foaf:Person . dbpedia:
</pre>

one can infer:

<pre>
ex:chadhurley rdf:type foaf:Agen . foaf: \and dbpedia:
</pre>

A typical use case for including provenance in the data is when exchanging datasets coming from multiple sources. This is for instance done for the Billion Triple Challenge, which in fact does not provide a billion triples but a billion quadruple, so that sources are identified.

Following the same generic framework, it is also possible to deal with fuzzy, probabilistic and uncertain information, e.g.,:

<pre>
ex:pictureAreaXYZ rdf:type ex:HumanFace . 0.82
ex:HumanFace rdfs:subClassOf ex:Ellipse . 0.75
</pre>

Fuzzy-annotated RDF are likely to be produced automatically by tools relying on statistical data or heuristic-based algorithm. Terminological statements with uncertainty are very common outputs of ontology matching algorithms.

In all these situations, identifying the triples or graphs to which attach the annotations is necessary.

<references/>

== Applying Named Graphs to a Terminology Service Prototype ==

Proposed use case for a LexEVS RDF triple store prototype.

LexRDF is an prototype implementation of LexEVS on an RDF triple store. http://www.deg.byu.edu/ctao/papers/LexRDF--SemRus-v2.pdf.

Among its assertions is an expression of definition source using reification to resolve a non-preferred term definition. An example assertion is expressed as follows:

{| border="1" align="center" style="text-align:center;"
! Subject
! Predicate
! Object
|-
|FAO:0000025
|rdf:type
|owl:Class
|-
|FAO:0000025
|skos:prefLabel
|mid reproductive
|-
|FAO:0000025
|skos:altLabel
|“principal growth stages 6.1-6.3"
|-
|A1
|rdf:type
|rdf:Statement
|-
|A1
|rdf:subject
|FAO:0000025
|-
|A1
|rdf:predicate
|skos:definition
|-
|A1
|rdf:object
|“middle stages of reproductive phase."
|-
|A1
|dc:source
|TAIR:lr
|}

Applying Named Graph:

LexRDF:Graph1{
FAO:0000025 rdf:type owl:Class
FAO:0000025 skos:prefLabel “mid reproduction”
FAO:0000025 skos:altLabel “principal growth stages 6.1-6.3"
}
LexRDF:_Graph2{
FAO:0000025 skos:definition ”middle stages of reproduction”
}
LexRDF:Graph3{
LexRDF:_Graph2 dc:source TAIR:lr
}

Named Graphs could provide some flexibility in representation in this prototype and eliminate some of the problems associated with overhead when using reification.

TF interests

Sbauer2 — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 22:07:49 GMT

Sbauer2:

The table content is based on the users’ own pages…

{| border=1
|
! Turtle Spec
! JSON Serialization
! Graph Identification
|-
| [[User:Jbaget|Jean-François Baget, INRIA]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:Sbauer2|Scott Bauer, Mayo Clinic]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |✓
|-
| Dan Brickley, VU
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:Mbrunati|Matteo Brunati, IWA-HWG Association]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:Gcarothe3|Gavin Carothers]], TopQuandrant
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:Jcarroll|Jeremy Carroll, TopQuandrant]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ✓
|-
| [[User:Pchampin|Pierre-Antoine Champin, Un Lyon]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:Ocorby|Olivier Corby, INRIA]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ✓
|-
| [[User:Rcygania2|Richard Cyganiak, DERI]]
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ✓
|-
| [[User:Sdas2|Souripriya Das, Oracle]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:Lfeigenb|Lee Feigenbaum]], Cambridge Semantics
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ✓
|-
| Dieter Fensel, Ontotext
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ?
|-
| [[User:Fgandon|Fabien Gandon, INRIA]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ✓
|-
| Alex Hall, Revelytix
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| Michael Hausenblas, DERI
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:Sharris2|Steve Harris, Garlik]]
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ✓
|-
| [[User:Sandro|Sandro Hawke, W3C]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:Phayes3|Pat Hayes, Invited Expert]]
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ✓
|-
| [[User:Ivan|Ivan Herman, W3C]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:Nhumfrey|Nicholas Humfrey, BBC]]
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:CMatheus|Christopher Matheus, Alcatel-Lucent]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:Peter_F_Patel-Schneider|Peter F Patel-Schneider, Alcatel-Lucent]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ✓
|-
| Axel Polleres, DERI
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:Yraimond|Yves Raimond, BBC]]
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ✓
|-
| [[User:Nrixham|Nathan Rixham, Invited Expert]]
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" | ✓
|-
| Guus Schreiber, VU
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:Andy_Seaborne|Andy Seaborne, Apache]]
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" | ✓
|-
| [[User:Msporny|Manu Sporny, Digital Bazaar]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" | ✓
|-
| [[User:Tsteiner|Thomas Steiner, Google]]
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:Mtiffiel|Mischa Tuffield, Garlik]]
| align="center" | ✓
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ✓
|-
| [[User:Dwood4|David Wood, Talis]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| [[User:ZheWu|Zhe (Alan) Wu, Oracle]]
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| Mohamed Zergaoui, Innovimax
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
|-
| Antoine Zimmermann, Un Lyon
| align="center" |
| align="center" |
| align="center" | ✓
|}

User:Sbauer2

Sbauer2 — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:35:03 GMT

Sbauer2: /* Scott Bauer */

==Scott Bauer==

I'm a developer in a terminology informatics group at the Mayo clinic Department of Health Sciences Research in the Division of Biomedical Statistics and Informatics. I've led a developer study group for Web Semantics. We produce the LexEVS terminology service which extends the LexGrid model. We support transformations of OWL and other sources into the LexGrid data model. Our group has done a mapping for, and implemented a prototype of, LexRDF, an RDF based version of a common terminology service. We have just released an implementation of the draft CTS2 model in LexEVS 6.0

==Focus==

* I'm interested in the overall usability of the RDF Standard.
* Able to act as a conduit for issues raised by researchers in Web Semantics at Mayo.
* Interested in namespace names and identifiers and the mappings to and from URI's and in particular the development of a canonical transform for the same.
* Also interested in Named Graphs and updates to set notation.

User:Sbauer2

Sbauer2 — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:33:34 GMT

Sbauer2: /* Scott Bauer */

==Scott Bauer==

I'm a developer in a terminology informatics group at the Mayo clinic Department of Health Sciences Research in the Division of Biomedical Statistics and Informatics. I've led a developer study group for Web Semantics. We produce the LexEVS terminology service which extends the LexGrid model. We support transformations of OWL and other sources into the LexGrid data model. Our group has done a mapping for, and implemented a prototype of, LexRDF, an RDF based version of a common terminology service. We have just released a implementation of the draft CTS2 model in LexEVS 6.0

==Focus==

* I'm interested in the overall usability of the RDF Standard.
* Able to act as a conduit for issues raised by researchers in Web Semantics at Mayo.
* Interested in namespace names and identifiers and the mappings to and from URI's and in particular the development of a canonical transform for the same.
* Also interested in Named Graphs and updates to set notation.

User:Sbauer2

Sbauer2 — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:33:02 GMT

Sbauer2: /* Scott Bauer */

==Scott Bauer==

I'm a developer in a terminology informatics group at the Mayo clinic Department of Health Sciences Research in the Division of Biomedical Statistics and Informatics. I've led a developer study group for Web Semantics. We produce the LexEVS terminology service which extends the LexGrid model. We support transformations of OWL and other sources into the LexGrid data model. Our group has done a mapping for and implemented a prototype of, LexRDF, an RDF based version of a common terminology service. We have just released a implementation of the draft CTS2 model in LexEVS 6.0

==Focus==

* I'm interested in the overall usability of the RDF Standard.
* Able to act as a conduit for issues raised by researchers in Web Semantics at Mayo.
* Interested in namespace names and identifiers and the mappings to and from URI's and in particular the development of a canonical transform for the same.
* Also interested in Named Graphs and updates to set notation.

User:Sbauer2

Sbauer2 — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:27:43 GMT

Sbauer2: /* Scott Bauer */

==Scott Bauer==

I'm a developer in a terminology informatics group at the Mayo clinic department of Health Sciences Research in the Division of Biomedical Statistics and Informatics. I've lead a developer study group for Web Semantics. We produce the LexEVS terminology service which extends the LexGrid model. We support transformations of OWL and other sources into the LexGrid data model. Our group has done a mapping for and implemented a prototype of, LexRDF, an RDF based version of a common terminology service. We have just released a implementation of the draft CTS2 model in LexEVS 6.0

==Focus==

* I'm interested in the overall usability of the RDF Standard.
* Able to act as a conduit for issues raised by researchers in Web Semantics at Mayo.
* Interested in namespace names and identifiers and the mappings to and from URI's and in particular the development of a canonical transform for the same.
* Also interested in Named Graphs and updates to set notation.

User:Sbauer2

Sbauer2 — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:23:44 GMT

Sbauer2: /* Scott Bauer */

==Scott Bauer==

I'm a developer in a terminology informatics group at the Mayo School of Health Sciences in the Department of Biomedical Statistics and Informatics. I've lead a developer study group for Web Semantics. We produce the LexEVS terminology service which extends the LexGrid model. We support transformations of OWL and other sources into the LexGrid data model. Our group has done a mapping for and implemented a prototype of, LexRDF, an RDF based version of a common terminology service. We have just released a implementation of the draft CTS2 model in LexEVS 6.0

==Focus==

* I'm interested in the overall usability of the RDF Standard.
* Able to act as a conduit for issues raised by researchers in Web Semantics at Mayo.
* Interested in namespace names and identifiers and the mappings to and from URI's and in particular the development of a canonical transform for the same.
* Also interested in Named Graphs and updates to set notation.

User:Sbauer2

Sbauer2 — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:21:46 GMT

Sbauer2: /* Scott Bauer */

==Scott Bauer==

I'm a developer in a terminology informatics group at the Mayo Foundation in the Department of Biomedical Statistics and Informatics. I've lead a developer study group for Web Semantics. We produce the LexEVS terminology service which extends the LexGrid model. We support transformations of OWL and other sources into the LexGrid data model. Our group has done a mapping for and implemented a prototype of, LexRDF, an RDF based version of a common terminology service. We have just released a implementation of the draft CTS2 model in LexEVS 6.0

==Focus==

* I'm interested in the overall usability of the RDF Standard.
* Able to act as a conduit for issues raised by researchers in Web Semantics at Mayo.
* Interested in namespace names and identifiers and the mappings to and from URI's and in particular the development of a canonical transform for the same.
* Also interested in Named Graphs and updates to set notation.

User:Sbauer2

Sbauer2 — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:19:20 GMT

Sbauer2: Created page with "==Scott Bauer== I'm a developer in a terminology informatics group at the Mayo Foundation in the Department of Biomedical Statistics and Informatics. I've lead a developer stud…"

==Scott Bauer==

I'm a developer in a terminology informatics group at the Mayo Foundation in the Department of Biomedical Statistics and Informatics. I've lead a developer study group for Web Semantics. We produce the LexEVS terminology service which extends the LexGrid model. We support transformations of OWL and other sources into the LexGrid data model. Our group has done a mapping for and implemented a prototype of, LexRDF, an RDF based version of a common terminology service. We have just release a implementation of the draft CTS2 model in LexEVS 6.0

==Focus==

* I'm interested in the overall usability of the RDF Standard.
* Able to act as a conduit for issues raised by researchers in Web Semantics at Mayo.
* Interested in namespace names and identifiers and the mappings to and from URI's and in particular the development of a canonical transform for the same.
* Also interested in Named Graphs and updates to set notation.