Chatlog 2012-06-13

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14:04:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:04:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-rdf-wg-irc
14:04:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:04:13 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:04:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:04:16 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:04:16 <trackbot> Date: 13 June 2012
14:04:16 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 56 minutes
14:13:28 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
14:54:11 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
14:55:07 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
14:56:23 <ScottB> ScottB has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:11 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:00:18 <Zakim> +??P4
15:00:22 <AndyS> zakim, ??P4 is me
15:00:22 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:00:43 <Zakim> +bernadette
15:00:44 <Zakim> + +1.781.273.aaaa
15:00:52 <davidwood> Zakim, bernadette is me
15:00:52 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
15:00:55 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:58 <MacTed> Zakim, aaaa is OpenLink_Software
15:00:58 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
15:01:04 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:04 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:05 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:05 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:19 <Zakim> +??P10
15:01:21 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
15:01:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, davidwood, MacTed (muted), ??P10
15:01:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see SteveH_, ScottB, pfps, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, MacTed, SteveH, gavinc, ivan, AndyS, yvesr, manu1, manu, sandro, davidwood, trackbot, NickH, ericP
15:01:22 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aabb
15:01:23 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:01:29 <gavinc> Zakim, aabb is me
15:01:30 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
15:01:32 <Zakim> +??P9
15:01:36 <pfps> zakim, IBM is temporarily me
15:01:36 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:01:39 <gkellogg> zakim, ??P9 is me
15:01:41 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
15:01:48 <Zakim> +Tony
15:02:03 <Zakim> +??P17
15:02:07 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is temporarily me
15:02:10 <SteveH_> Zakim, ??P17 is me
15:02:13 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it
15:02:16 <Zakim> +SteveH_; got it
15:02:23 <MacTed> MacTed has changed the topic to: RDF-WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ -- latest agenda = http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.06.13 (MacTed)
15:02:36 <Zakim> +Arnaud
15:02:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:02:47 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:02:48 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:03:15 <AZ> Zakim, who is here?
15:03:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, davidwood, MacTed (muted), ??P10, gavinc, pfps, gkellogg, ScottB, SteveH_, Arnaud, Ivan
15:03:28 <AZ> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:03:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see SteveH_, ScottB, pfps, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, MacTed, SteveH, gavinc, ivan, AndyS, yvesr, manu1, manu, sandro, davidwood, trackbot, NickH, ericP
15:03:38 <ivan> scribenick: AZ
15:03:40 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:03:45 <manu1> zakim, code?
15:03:48 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aacc
15:03:55 <davidwood> chair: David Wood
15:03:58 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), manu1
15:04:04 <Souri> Souri has joined #RDF-WG
15:04:22 <AZ> Topic: Admin
15:04:27 <Zakim> +??P24
15:04:59 <manu1> q+ to request that JSON-LD be moved to the front of the agenda.
15:05:01 <davidwood> PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of the 30 May telecon:
15:05:02 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-05-30
15:05:20 <manu1> I have reviewed them - they look good. :)
15:05:24 <manu1> I also scribed.
15:05:24 <pfps> the minutes look fine
15:05:35 <davidwood> Review of action items
15:05:35 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
15:05:35 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
15:05:36 <AZ> RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 30 May telecon:
15:06:03 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:28 <davidwood> Topic: Summer Schedule
15:07:42 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:53 <pfps> Which weeks?
15:08:01 <AZ> davidwood: starting july until august we do 1 meeting every 2 weeks
15:08:13 <pfps> Good - July 4 week off.
15:08:20 <MacTed> (winter schedule for Southern Hemisphere... if we had any)
15:09:11 <Zakim> +??P36
15:09:17 <pchampin> zakim, ??p36 is me
15:09:17 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
15:10:04 <AZ> davidwood: 11th july, 25th july, 8 aug, 22nd aug.
15:10:11 <manu1> I think we should try to publish the JSON-LD specs as FPWDs in July - we should do a straw poll on 11 July 2012 in this WG to make it happen (barring any serious changes)
15:10:20 <davidwood> Meetings to be held on 11 July, 25 July, 8 August, 22 August.  Weekly meetings to resume as of 5 September.
15:10:22 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aadd
15:10:55 <davidwood> Topic: Turtle Last Call
15:11:39 <AZ> gavinc: we would need Richard's comments
15:12:00 <AZ> davidwood: are the comments minor enough to go last call
15:12:55 <AndyS> [166s]     PN_LOCAL_ESC is unclear.  What is the precedence of adjacent and | ? 
15:13:00 <AZ> ericP: we should remind people that it is Last Call
15:13:26 <pfps> If the editor isn't saying "trivial" then I don't think that we should go forward.
15:13:44 <AZ> gavinc: currently the document has 2 normative big sections
15:14:00 <gavinc> pfps... yeah, not going to last call
15:14:28 <AZ> ericP: nwe wrote the first 2 sections to be approachable for ???
15:14:49 <ivan> s/???/mortals/
15:15:16 <AZ> ericP: we may want to make 1st section normative
15:16:25 <AZ> gavinc: we need to take one more look at the doc
15:16:49 <AZ> s/gavinc/ericP/
15:17:22 <Zakim> +[VrijeUni]
15:17:30 <AZ> ericP: if we can write the doc to satisfy the WG
15:17:44 <Guus> zakim, +[VrijeUni] is me
15:17:44 <Zakim> sorry, Guus, I do not recognize a party named '+[VrijeUni]'
15:18:05 <Guus> zakim, VrijeUni is me
15:18:05 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
15:18:24 <AZ> ericP: we could have normative sections with subsections that are informative
15:18:51 <AZ> ericP: or start with informtive, tutorial like, then normative hard-to-read one
15:19:16 <gavinc> Example of the problematic sections http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#relative-iris
15:20:00 <AZ> AndyS: there should not be normative sub-sections inside non-normative ones
15:20:39 <AZ> ericP: Richard observed there was 2 definitions of everything,
15:20:53 <AZ> ...: we can make one informative def and one normative
15:21:09 <AZ> gavinc: relative IRI section is duplicated
15:21:26 <AZ> ... and both are normative
15:21:43 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:21:43 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:21:44 <AZ> ... but if we get rid of one of them it's unreadable
15:21:48 <MacTed> q+
15:21:49 <davidwood> q?
15:22:06 <AZ> ericP: I think one is informative
15:22:11 <AZ> gavinc: I don't think so
15:22:34 <davidwood> q+ to ask about moving changes in the Status section to the Changes section
15:23:01 <manu1> +1 to what MacTed said.
15:23:01 <AZ> ericP: it's not exact duplication, rather reformulation
15:23:38 <davidwood> ack manu
15:23:38 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to request that JSON-LD be moved to the front of the agenda.
15:24:06 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:24:13 <AZ> manu1: probably if you have to repeat things it means there may be a problem in the organization of the doc
15:24:53 <AZ> ... it may not be explained well enough, or we are getting too detailed
15:25:06 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aaee
15:25:22 <AZ> ... there should be a simple introduction to the concepts
15:25:39 <AZ> ... would that be difficult to reshape it this way
15:26:00 <AZ> gavinc: but there are fairly large disagreements
15:26:05 <MacTed> q-
15:26:08 <Zakim> - +1.617.324.aadd
15:26:21 <davidwood> ack davidwood
15:26:21 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to ask about moving changes in the Status section to the Changes section
15:26:30 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aaff
15:27:07 <AZ> davidwood: there are changes llisted in the status section
15:27:07 <mischat> mischat has joined #rdf-wg
15:27:37 <AZ> gavinc: I'll move that for the last call version
15:28:01 <AZ> davidwood: it's important to have this doc out, but I understand that work is needed still
15:28:13 <AZ> davidwood: we have a small agenda today, we can discuss it more
15:28:40 <AZ> gavinc: the issues are not that bad
15:28:56 <AZ> ... before Sec 5 are mostly informative
15:29:38 <Zakim> -Arnaud
15:29:46 <manu1> +1 to what EricP just said!
15:30:00 <Zakim> +Arnaud
15:30:02 <ericP> \ O /"
15:30:20 <AZ> ericP: we would probably not benefit a lot from discussing this now, let's have concrete decisions
15:31:14 <AZ> davidwood: please provide comments again on the document
15:31:28 <AZ> Topic: JSON LD
15:32:04 <AZ> davidwood: we had 3 people reviewing JSON LD
15:33:13 <davidwood> q?
15:33:16 <manu1> http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/
15:33:16 <AZ> (couldn't hear well what AndyS asked)
15:33:25 <manu1> http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-api/
15:33:38 <AZ> manu1: this is the link to the doc you should e reviewing
15:34:10 <AZ> ... we will not change that doc while it's being reviewed
15:34:17 <gavinc> wasn't there a decision to move the document into dvcs.w3.org?
15:34:21 <manu1> We responding to RDF WG issues here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jun/0028.html
15:34:43 <AZ> ... we responded to the comments there
15:35:00 <AZ> ... we tried to aligned as much as possible to RDF concepts
15:35:09 <AZ> ... but there are places where we couldn't
15:35:51 <AZ> ... there was an issue on "predicate" vs "property"
15:36:20 <AZ> ... apart from those remaining details, everything re. terminology was addressed
15:36:43 <AZ> AndyS: the doc should move to w3.org
15:36:53 <AZ> davidwood: there are some issues with the community
15:37:15 <AZ> manu1: the JSON community have to get a clean doc and hand it to W3C
15:37:32 <davidwood> The RDF WG has agreed to take on the JSON-LD docs, in this form: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-05-30#resolution_2
15:38:10 <AZ> ... when the doc is ready to be an FPWD it will be given to the RDF WG
15:39:03 <AZ> davidwood: the resolution was to agree to proceed by having the doc prepared under the auspice of the JSON group before going to W3C rec track
15:39:13 <AZ> ... but what about patent policy?
15:39:20 <AndyS> q+ to ask the question he was getting round to :-)
15:39:56 <davidwood> ack AndyS
15:39:56 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask the question he was getting round to :-)
15:40:05 <Zakim> -Arnaud
15:41:13 <AZ> manu1: we believ we now have the document that RDF WG asked for
15:41:26 <Zakim> -ericP
15:41:51 <Zakim> +ericP
15:41:54 <AZ> manu1: when RDF WG agrees with the state of the doc, we will have all the IP agreement and all the process
15:42:25 <AZ> AndyS: I thought that the doc would move to the w3.org namespace
15:42:55 <AZ> ... and then would review it
15:42:56 <AndyS> PS I did warn about a potential lack of time - still applies.
15:43:26 <AZ> pchampin: will do the review by Monday (?)
15:43:58 <davidwood> q?
15:44:14 <AZ> manu1: the IP agreement will not be made until it has moved to the RDF WG
15:44:40 <AndyS> q+ to check who will then handle the comments once it's moved - Greg? Manu? presumably.
15:45:17 <AZ> ivan: at semtech, there was a presentation of JSON LD and some of the audience seemed to find it too complicated
15:45:20 <gkellogg> q+
15:45:40 <AZ> ... some thought parts of the algorithm were not really needed
15:46:14 <AZ> ... from a JSON developer point of view, it seemed confusing
15:46:50 <davidwood> ack gkellogg
15:46:52 <AZ> davidwood: the JSON dev did not want to go into a complete techno stack
15:46:53 <manu1> AZ - Correction - the JSON-LD Syntax and API IPR agreement will not be made until this group says that they are fine with the changes we've made and want to transfer the work into this group as-is.
15:47:59 <AZ> gkellogg: people were more confused by the transformation going on between formats
15:48:07 <davidwood> ack AndyS
15:48:07 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to check who will then handle the comments once it's moved - Greg? Manu? presumably.
15:48:41 <AZ> (sorry did not understand AndyS's comment)
15:49:22 <AZ> AndyS: who will be editor? Greg, manu and markus
15:49:45 <Zakim> -gkellogg
15:49:51 <Souri> q+ (at the risk of not fully knowing the exact issue) to express personal preference for "predicate" (because property can be used as subject, predicate, and object)
15:50:12 <davidwood> ack Souri
15:50:33 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:50:41 <PatH> sorry Im late.
15:50:53 <gavinc> properties exist in Javascript already don't they?
15:51:05 <AZ> Souri: re. property / predicate, predicate make sense and property may be confusing also
15:51:26 <Souri> pred-obj vs. prop-val, I see
15:51:30 <Zakim> +PatH
15:51:31 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:45 <AZ> manu1: for English speakers, predicate seems more technical
15:52:18 <AZ> ... property is well understood and used in everyday conversation by native English speakers
15:52:31 <davidwood> q?
15:52:35 <gavinc> +q Javascript has property 
15:52:43 <davidwood> ack gavinc
15:52:47 <PatH> technically the predicate denotes the proprty, but that realy is getting pedantic..
15:53:49 <PatH> i am a native and im confused.
15:54:06 <gavinc> Gavin?
15:54:09 <gavinc> I'm reviewing?
15:54:56 <AZ> manu1: if there is not issues with the reviews, we will proceed with the IPR process
15:55:12 <AZ> ... otherwise, if there are major issues, we will stop and discuss it
15:55:14 <PatH> zakim, mute me
15:55:14 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
15:55:57 <AZ> ... we will address the issues of the reviews and have the version ready in july
15:56:47 <AZ> Topic: AOB
15:57:02 <Zakim> -pfps
15:57:03 <Zakim> -PatH
15:57:04 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aacc
15:57:04 <Zakim> -??P24
15:57:07 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:57:08 <Zakim> -davidwood
15:57:08 <Zakim> -ScottB
15:57:08 <Zakim> -AlexHall
15:57:10 <davidwood> Adjounred
15:57:10 <AndyS> gavin?
15:57:12 <ericP> gavinc, meet after (my) lunch?
15:57:13 <Zakim> -gavinc
15:57:14 <Zakim> -pchampin
15:57:17 <davidwood> err, Adjourned
15:57:19 <Zakim> -Guus
15:57:26 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:57:31 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect ericP 
15:57:31 <Zakim> ericP is being disconnected
15:57:32 <Zakim> -ericP
15:57:36 <Zakim> -MacTed
15:57:42 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
15:58:22 <AndyS> gavinc, ericP --- see email re grammar problems -- risks being a material change later.
15:58:54 <gavinc> seen
15:58:56 <gavinc> updating
15:59:31 <Zakim> -AZ
16:00:34 <AndyS> If it's HTML generation problems, might be elsewhere - inc NT.  Didn't check exhaustively.
16:06:28 <Zakim> +Arnaud
16:06:30 <Zakim> -SteveH_
16:06:59 <Zakim> -Arnaud
16:07:00 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
16:07:02 <Zakim> Attendees were AndyS, +1.781.273.aaaa, davidwood, MacTed, +1.707.861.aabb, gavinc, pfps, gkellogg, ScottB, SteveH_, Arnaud, Ivan, AZ, +1.603.897.aacc, pchampin, +1.617.324.aadd,
16:07:05 <Zakim> ... Guus, +1.443.212.aaee, AlexHall, +1.617.324.aaff, ericP, PatH
16:07:36 <ericP> AndyS, re precedence ambiguity?
16:08:39 <AndyS> EricP
16:09:44 <AndyS> the 166s rule is wrong. Lost some brackets?  A B | C = (A B) | C but A (B | C) was meant.
16:10:44 <ericP> ahh, that sounds like the sort of error i could have made when i was trying to strip out unnecessary ()s
16:10:53 <gavinc> No.
16:11:03 <gavinc> It's not in the .bnf grammar
16:11:11 <gavinc> it's in the HTML produced from the .bnf grammar
16:11:32 <AndyS> DECIMAL thing is wrong in BNF?
16:11:38 <gavinc> Yes.
16:12:21 <gavinc> DECIMAL was C&P pasted from our list email thread on the subject ;)
16:12:28 <gavinc> last
16:13:35 <ericP> gavinc, i had hand-massaged the html so that's why i suspect the culprit whom i mentioned
16:13:51 <gavinc> ?
16:13:55 <gavinc> when?
16:14:39 <ericP> when i had my fingers in the grammar section a few weeks ago
16:15:02 <gavinc> ah, well since then not using yacker ;)
16:15:18 <gavinc> https://github.com/norcalrdf/pymantic/blob/master/pymantic/scripts/bnf2html
16:17:34 <ericP> yacker's toString doesn't pass the parent precendence so it errs on the side of excessive ()s. i think i used it and then stripped out the ()s
16:18:01 <ericP> that bnf2html uses parent precedence?
16:18:07 <gavinc> yes
16:18:16 <gavinc> but didn't seem to work just right ;)
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