Chatlog 2011-09-21

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16:28:55 <MacTed> scribenick: AZ
16:33:02 <MacTed> chair: David Wood
14:57:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:52 <RRSAgent> logging to
14:57:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:57:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:57:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:57 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:57:57 <trackbot> Date: 21 September 2011
14:58:24 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:31 <Zakim> +AZ
14:58:39 <Zakim> +bhyland
14:58:55 <davidwood> Zakim, bhyland is me
14:58:55 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
14:59:23 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:00:18 <Zakim> +??P14
15:00:43 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:08 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
15:01:31 <gavinc> zakim, who is talking
15:01:31 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', gavinc
15:01:46 <davidwood> Zakim, +P14 is Arnaud
15:01:46 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named '+P14'
15:01:57 <davidwood> Zakim, P14 is Arnaud
15:01:57 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named 'P14'
15:02:12 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:15 <gavinc> zakim, ??P14 is Arnaud
15:02:15 <Zakim> +Arnaud; got it
15:02:58 <Zakim> +??P22
15:03:05 <pchampin> +??P22 is me
15:03:17 <Zakim> +??P25
15:03:26 <pchampin> zakim, ??P22 is me
15:03:26 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
15:03:29 <mischat> Zakim, ??P25 is me 
15:03:29 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:03:32 <pchampin> zakim, mute me
15:03:32 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted
15:04:18 <cygri> zakim, what's the code?
15:04:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, cygri
15:04:30 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:04:35 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is me
15:04:35 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:04:58 <AZ> topic: Admin
15:05:17 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:22 <davidwood> Proposed to accept
15:05:24 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:05:24 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, zwu2
15:05:38 <AZ> PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of the 14 Sep telecon
15:05:58 <Zakim> +zwu2
15:06:03 <AZ> davidwood: The meeting was adjourned before the minutes were issued
15:06:06 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:06:06 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:06:10 <mischat> the minutes do state where the telecon adjourned 
15:06:43 <AZ> davidwood: we'll close Guus action
15:07:32 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:07:33 <AZ>  cygri: will do my action later today
15:08:07 <AZ> topic: FTF planning 
15:08:17 <ericP> davidwood, Guus, i'm on another call. RDF WG has dibs so you can ping "ericP" in irc and I'll switch focus
15:08:23 <mischat>
15:09:24 <AZ> davidwood: talks on hotels difficult to find
15:10:09 <AZ> davidwood: we'll have the F2F split in 2 places (EU and US)
15:11:02 <mischat>
15:11:08 <cygri> q+
15:11:25 <AZ> davidwood: we have to figure out 2 things,
15:11:36 <AZ> ...: manage the timezones
15:12:04 <AZ> ...: when London adjourn, we use the time left in Boston to do useful things
15:12:25 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:12:32 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:12:33 <AZ> ...: we make progress on the RDF primer
15:12:55 <AZ> cygri: I was surprised by the strong titles in the agenda
15:13:21 <AZ> ... I wasn't expecting the two would work apart
15:13:37 <gavinc> Issue seems to be that far more people will be in London then in Boston :\
15:13:40 <AZ> ... there are advantages in doing that, more stuff gets done,
15:13:51 <AZ> .... but advantages having shared time
15:14:07 <AZ> ... we should maximise shared time
15:14:36 <pchampin> +1 to try to align schedule as much as possible
15:14:37 <AZ> davidwood: I hope we can get in MIT earlier
15:14:47 <mischat> cygri: i agree too, but iirc yvesr_ and NickH mentioned that there was end time to when we had to get out of their buildings
15:14:52 <gavinc> there are 5 solid confirmations in Boston, and 11 in London 
15:15:06 <AZ> ... and we can't be in BBC late
15:15:14 <LeeF> I'm sorry that my phone has decided to act up, but I wanted to say that I'm not sure that a group editing of the primer will be a good way to edit the primer. I think we might be more successful identifying goals for the updated primer and then enlisting 1 or 2 editors to do the actual updating.
15:15:31 <AZ> ... the current agenda is (sort of) a worst case scenario
15:15:58 <AZ> cygri: currently, we'll adjourn in London at 5pm
15:16:04 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:16:04 <mischat> cygri++
15:16:13 <AZ> ... we could shift everything 2 hours backward
15:16:45 <davidwood> Yves Raimond
15:16:47 <davidwood> (BBC)
15:17:01 <mischat> davidwood: to email yvesr_ about how late we can stay at the BBC's london location 
15:17:13 <AZ> ACTION: david to mail Yves if we can get to BBC later
15:17:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-90 - Mail Yves if we can get to BBC later [on David Wood - due 2011-09-28].
15:17:20 <mischat> davidwood, LeeF had a point above 
15:17:23 <LeeF> q+
15:17:30 <cygri> q+
15:17:31 <davidwood> ack LeeF
15:18:20 <AZ> LeeF: we should get consensus on what to put in Primer then assign writing to 2 people
15:18:42 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:18:52 <mischat>
15:18:57 <mischat> editors doc ^^
15:19:20 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:19:22 <AZ> davidwood: with neither editors of Primer on the call we can't really decide how to proceed wrt Primer
15:19:49 <LeeF> Great! (i was just confused by what it said in the agenda)
15:19:54 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:19:58 <AZ> ...: we will just suggest updates for Primer at the Boston meeting
15:20:24 <AZ> cygri: we should spend time on the documents the WG has to update and produce
15:20:54 <davidwood> Changed agenda wording for the RDF Primer task
15:21:01 <AZ> ... a number of documents have not yet been touch in terms of editing
15:21:16 <LeeF> I will attend at MIT - I didn't realize I wasn't already on the list. Sorry!
15:21:40 <AZ> ... it's not clear what's going to happen wrt the JSON document
15:21:58 <AZ> ... we should discuss the JSON doc at the meeting
15:22:14 <AZ> davidwood: there should be someone reviewing the JSON doc
15:22:24 <AZ> ... and present the review to the group on the ML
15:23:03 <AZ> cygri: there was a decision at the F2F1 that we have 2 documents
15:23:21 <AZ> ... is there still this consensus?
15:23:29 <mischat> zakim, who is on the call?
15:23:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see AZ, davidwood, gavinc, Arnaud, Scott_Bauer, pchampin (muted), mischat, cygri, zwu2 (muted), LeeF
15:23:41 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:23:49 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:23:49 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:23:51 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:23:51 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:24:41 <AZ> davidwood: we have 2 actions to do for the F2F:
15:24:54 <AZ> ... 1. whether BC can be accessible late and;
15:25:03 <AZ> ... 2. review JSON LD
15:25:04 <MacTed> s/BC/BBC/
15:25:40 <davidwood> TO DO for the Agenda:
15:25:45 <mischat> i was wrong about a json-ld review, I was thinking of all the json-ld related chat on the mailing list that is all 
15:26:05 <AZ> davidwood: I'll update the agenda accordingly
15:26:20 <AZ> topic: Liaison with Provenance WG 
15:26:32 <AZ> davidwood: there was a telecon last Thursday
15:26:47 <AZ> ... there is a mailing list for RDF / Prov liaison
15:27:00 <AZ>
15:27:10 <mischat>
15:27:22 <AZ> ... anyone interested in Graph TF should take a look and join the discussions
15:27:26 <mischat> and the minutes to the meeting last week
15:28:06 <AZ> ... the Prov WG make good progress but it's not clear exactly there use cases
15:28:30 <davidwood> Discussed
15:28:59 <AZ> ... we (RDF WG) have a provenance use case
15:29:01 <mischat>
15:29:12 <AZ> s/a provenance use case/provenance use cases/
15:29:38 <AZ> ... we need an agreement on the g-* terminology
15:29:48 <mischat>
15:29:53 <AZ> ... it must be fixed after the F2F2
15:29:55 <mischat> g-box
15:30:35 <AZ> ... the Prov WG is waiting for our final terminology
15:30:41 <Arnaud> got it, thanks
15:30:42 <AZ> ... and they need their final use cases
15:31:04 <davidwood> q?
15:31:45 <AZ> topic: Status RDF Dataset proposal 
15:32:31 <AZ> davidwood: Richard, can you answer Sandro's criticism wrt the Dataset proposal?
15:33:05 <davidwood> Sandro's criticism:
15:33:06 <AZ> ... in the minutes of the last meeting
15:33:51 <AZ> cygri: the proposal is not based on use cases, but based on SPARQL specs
15:34:20 <AZ> ... these concepts are already implemented in SPARQL graph stores
15:34:31 <AZ> ... this addresses a lot of use cases
15:34:50 <AZ> ... but it's worth looking at it in more details
15:35:15 <AZ> ... we have to define what cannot be addressed by the proposal
15:35:52 <AZ> ... People who think it is not sufficient should point out which use cases are not addressed
15:37:15 <pchampin> q+ to ask a question to Richard about the dataset proposal
15:37:18 <AZ> ... I still think that the proposal is enough for all use cases
15:38:21 <AZ> davidwood: we are not sure the prov use case we have are use cases for the Prov WG (?)
15:38:23 <mischat> q?
15:39:19 <AZ> ... we need Sandro to discuss his criticism and he's not here
15:39:47 <pchampin> +1 to Richard
15:39:51 <AZ> cygri: versioning is related somehow to provenance too
15:39:54 <davidwood> q?
15:39:57 <pchampin> ack me
15:39:59 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask a question to Richard about the dataset proposal
15:40:02 <davidwood> ack pchampin
15:40:05 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to respond to Sandro's trust use case
15:40:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-91 - Respond to Sandro's trust use case [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-09-28].
15:40:45 <AZ> Pierre-Antoine: in the dataset proposal, things are very specific to queries
15:40:54 <AZ> ... eg, default graph
15:41:25 <AZ> ... shouldn't we clear the proposal from this focus (which comes from SPARQL)
15:41:47 <AZ> cygri: true, default graph comes from SPARQL and may not be necessary
15:42:25 <AZ> ... it's still open to discussion whether to keep it
15:42:47 <AZ> ... but it's good to take what SPARQL has and make as little changes as possible
15:43:42 <AZ> ... if we diverge from SPARQL, we should have a good explanation for it
15:44:38 <AZ> pchampin: I agree but some things in the Dataset proposal seem strange from RDF pov
15:45:04 <gavinc> The strange thing to me is that there can't be more then one ;)
15:45:16 <AZ> cygri: pchampin, if something seems weird, please find a cocnrete example to explain the reason
15:45:21 <davidwood> q?
15:45:22 <AZ> pchampin: I'll do that
15:46:15 <AZ> davidwood: we may not be able to address the tagged literals issue
15:46:27 <davidwood> <>
15:46:33 <AZ> ... everyone, please discuss the F2F agenda,
15:46:36 <davidwood> ^^ Please join if you are interested in graphs
15:46:45 <MacTed> what's the link/address by which to join?
15:47:00 <AZ> ... and join the Prov / RDF ML if interested in graphs
15:47:06 <gavinc> <> SUBSCRIBE
15:47:07 <mischat>  Subject: subscribe
15:47:18 <gavinc> NOT the mailing list address
15:47:19 <zwu2> q+
15:47:27 <MacTed> -request is key!  we don't want 17 "subscribe" messages going to the list...
15:47:29 <cygri> q+ to mention R2RML last call
15:47:32 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
15:47:32 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
15:47:44 <davidwood> ack zwu
15:48:18 <MacTed> <>
15:48:20 <MacTed> that will work
15:48:33 <AZ> zwu2: is it possible to change the schedule a bit to have more overlapping time
15:48:40 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:48:40 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to mention R2RML last call
15:48:53 <cygri>
15:48:57 <cygri>
15:49:01 <AZ> cygri: RDB2RDF has turned their docs to last call
15:49:44 <AZ> ... we invite comments, especially open questions,
15:50:10 <AZ> ... 1. whether the mapping language require a specific syntax or should it be just a vocabulary
15:50:51 <AZ> ... 2. how to get to specific parts of URIs
15:51:55 <AZ> ... There are also issues related to Turtle etc wrt punctuation
15:52:19 <davidwood> q?
15:52:43 <AZ> davidwood: we'll adjourn (early due to lack of participants)
15:53:34 <AZ> davidwood: cygri, please discuss Sandro's criticism and bring this to the list
15:54:05 <gavinc> <People/ID-7> rdf:type <People> . 
15:55:52 <Zakim> -zwu2
15:55:54 <Zakim> -MacTed
15:55:55 <Zakim> -cygri
15:55:55 <Zakim> -gavinc
15:55:57 <Zakim> -davidwood
15:55:57 <Zakim> -mischat
15:55:59 <Zakim> -Arnaud
15:56:04 <pchampin> bye all
15:56:05 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
15:56:20 <davidwood> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:56:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate davidwood
15:56:24 <mischat> :)
15:56:28 <Zakim> -pchampin
15:56:29 <Zakim> -AZ
15:57:05 <davidwood> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
15:57:17 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:57:18 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
15:57:20 <Zakim> Attendees were AZ, davidwood, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, Arnaud, pchampin, mischat, cygri, zwu2, LeeF, MacTed

16:07:16 <AZ> argh, the scribe was not specified
16:07:49 <AZ> the generated minutes are not ok
16:09:23 <mischat> should do the trick 
16:17:15 <danbri> danbri has joined #rdf-wg
16:18:26 <mischat> can you not go in and edit the editable logs and add `scribe: XXXX and scribenick: XXX` 
16:18:29 <mischat> AZ: ?
16:28:55 <MacTed> scribenick: AZ
16:29:01 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:29:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate MacTed
16:29:56 <MacTed> that may be enough...
16:31:02 <MacTed> chair: davidwood
16:31:05 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:31:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate MacTed
16:31:47 <MacTed> RRSAgent, help
16:32:53 <gavinc> RRSAgent isn't what we use for Minutes BTW
16:33:02 <MacTed> chair: David Wood
16:33:12 <MacTed> bah.
16:33:49 <MacTed> competing systems that do the same thing...  I loves them!  :-/
16:37:16 <MacTed> trackbot, end meeting
16:37:16 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:37:16 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:37:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:37:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:37:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:37:18 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in :
16:37:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: david to mail Yves if we can get to BBC later [1]
16:37:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in
16:37:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cygri to respond to Sandro's trust use case [2]
16:37:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in