Chatlog 2011-07-06

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14:57:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-rdf-wg-irc
14:58:18 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:20 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:30 <davidwood> zakim, code?
14:58:31 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I don't know what conference this is
14:58:47 <davidwood> zakim, I agree with Pat.  You can be hopeless at times.
14:58:47 <Zakim> I don't understand you, davidwood
14:59:32 <gavinc> zakim, this will be rdf
14:59:32 <Zakim> ok, gavinc, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
14:59:53 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see +44.207.923.aaaa, ??P11, ??P16, davidwood
15:00:03 <Zakim> +??P22
15:00:04 <AndyS> zakim, ??P16 is me
15:00:04 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:00:06 <yvesr> Zakim, +44.207.923.aaaa is yvesr
15:00:06 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:00:11 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me
15:00:12 <AndyS> (maybe)
15:00:13 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:00:13 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted
15:00:23 <AndyS> zakim, mute me
15:00:23 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted
15:00:27 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
15:00:34 <davidwood> zakim, who is talking?
15:00:45 <Zakim> davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (5%)
15:00:45 <mischat_> mischat_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:49 <cmatheus> zakim, ??P22 is me
15:00:49 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it
15:00:52 <Zakim> +??P34
15:01:01 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:01:03 <AndyS> zakim, unmute me
15:01:03 <Zakim> AndyS should no longer be muted
15:01:06 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:06 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:08 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:16 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P34 is me
15:01:16 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
15:01:19 <pchampin> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr (muted), ??P11 (muted), AndyS, davidwood, cmatheus, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, mbrunati, MacTed (muted)
15:01:22 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:01:32 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:35 <pchampin> zakim, ??P11 is me
15:01:35 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
15:01:36 <Zakim> +??P38
15:01:42 <tomayac> tomayac has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:44 <mischat_> zakim, ??P38 is me
15:01:44 <Zakim> +mischat_; got it
15:01:48 <mischat_> zakim, mute me
15:01:48 <Zakim> mischat_ should now be muted
15:01:49 <cmatheus> hello, I'm am here and ready to scribe.
15:01:52 <mischat_> hello
15:01:53 <davidwood> Thanks
15:02:11 <cmatheus> scribe: cmatheus
15:02:11 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
15:02:15 <iand> iand has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:24 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me
15:02:24 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:02:36 <cmatheus> zakim, scribe: cmatheus
15:02:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'scribe: cmatheus', cmatheus
15:02:36 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:02:38 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), zwu2
15:02:50 <sandro> regrets: sandro 
15:02:51 <cmatheus> Scribe: cmatheus
15:02:51 <davidwood> scribe: cmatheus
15:03:04 <Zakim> +tomayac
15:03:17 <cmatheus> I was expecting a confirmation from Zakim but haven't seen one.
15:03:18 <davidwood> sandro: We could use your help with the 22 June telecon minutes if you can.  Please see email for details.
15:03:23 <Zakim> +zwu2
15:03:28 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:03:28 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:03:31 <AndyS> zakim a bit confused?  #41 not working? Very very delayed?
15:03:46 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:03:46 <davidwood> Scribe: Christopher Matheus
15:03:54 <cmatheus> is there a way to confirm that am the scribe?
15:03:57 <davidwood> scribenick: cmatheus
15:04:07 <sandro> done, davidwood 
15:04:11 <Zakim> +??P16
15:04:16 <AndyS> zakim, ??P16 is me
15:04:16 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:04:21 <davidwood> cmatheus, That is an RRSAgent function, not a Zakim function.
15:04:26 <Zakim> +iand
15:04:28 <davidwood> sandro, thanks!
15:04:39 <cmatheus> thanks
15:04:43 <davidwood> np
15:04:51 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
15:04:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr (muted), pchampin (muted), davidwood, cmatheus, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, mbrunati, MacTed (muted), LeeF, mischat_ (muted), AlexHall, tomayac, zwu2 (muted),
15:04:55 <Zakim> ... AndyS, iand
15:05:17 <sandro> scribe: cmatheus 
15:05:50 <cmatheus> davidwood: telecom minutes from June 22 -- I don't see them
15:06:16 <davidwood> sandro, URL for the 22 June minutes?  I don't see them...
15:06:53 <AndyS> Were there minutes from the graph terminology RDF/SPARQL telecon?
<cmatheus> Topic: June 29 telecon minutes
15:06:56 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 29 June telecon:
15:06:56 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-29
15:07:02 <cmatheus> in mean time... propose to accept minutes form June 29
15:07:21 <AndyS> OK  - thx davidwood.
15:07:28 <cmatheus> does anyone object to them being accepted?
15:07:35 <sandro> davidwood, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-22
15:07:41 <sandro> (not cleaned up AT ALL thought)
15:07:42 <cmatheus> okay, accpet the June 29 minutes as written
15:08:04 <cmatheus> Resolution: minutes June 29 acceptted
15:08:36 <yvesr> i did
Topic: June 22 telecon minutes
15:08:45 <cmatheus> davidwood: Richard was going to fix the minutes but is on holiday
15:09:08 <cmatheus> typical of summer so we'll leave in his hands
15:09:44 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-22 haven't you know read them
15:09:50 <cmatheus> I'm no longer in member acl so some things I cannot edit
15:10:12 <cmatheus> we now have minutes for 22 June meeting -- please look through them so we can resolve them
15:10:54 <cmatheus> no resolutions but thought there were some action items taken
Topic: Issue 32
15:11:26 <cmatheus> one thing from meeting was we agreed to defer issue 32 until next meeting
15:11:36 <cmatheus> discussed on June 29 but no resolution was proposed
15:11:42 <LeeF> I am, but there are people talking in my office
15:11:57 <LeeF> ISSUE-32?
15:11:57 <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- Can we identify both g-boxes and g-snaps? -- open
15:11:57 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/32
15:12:02 <cmatheus> is Lee here today?  do you have any comment on issue 32?
15:12:29 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
15:12:29 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
15:12:30 <cmatheus> LeeF:  I think we discussed it a bunch but we said we had to wait on actions from graph telecomm
#15:12:30 <Zakim> +EricP.a
15:12:35 <Zakim> +PatHayes
15:12:54 <cmatheus> things seemed close but there were actions on Righard and a few others to make a proposal to align things
15:13:11 <cmatheus> davidwood:  with that taken care of are there objections to June 22 minutes?
15:13:23 <AndyS> abstain (was no there)
15:13:28 <AndyS> abstain (was not there)
15:13:30 <cmatheus> resolution: accept minutes for June 22
15:13:35 <davidwood> Turtle Editors Draft
15:13:35 <davidwood> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html
15:13:35 <davidwood> 	▪	Discuss existing issues, notes.
15:13:35 <davidwood> 	▪	Any other issues to raise?
Topic: Turtle
15:13:56 <cmatheus> davidwood: move on to turtle discussion
15:14:26 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:14:39 <cygri> zakim, what's the code?
15:14:39 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), cygri
15:14:44 <cmatheus> Eric or Gavin, which would like to go through document in terms of issues and notes?
15:14:47 <Zakim> +cygri
15:15:03 <cmatheus> ericp: gavin more tapped in than me
15:15:13 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:15:16 <davidwood> cygri, hi.  Have you been able to create minutes for the RDF/SPARQL telecon?
15:15:45 <cmatheus> gavinc: out standing issue 13 around xsd strings and plain literals, some language about it in the draft
15:16:02 <cmatheus> issue about escape sequences being allowed
15:16:09 <PatH> david, if that was meant for me, not yet.
15:16:10 <cmatheus> and the grammar table has issues
15:16:24 <cygri> davidwood, no, totally forgot about it, sorry. i have the log and will do it first thing tomorrow
15:16:26 <Zakim> -pchampin
15:16:30 <cmatheus> in the production of the table (editorial issue)
15:16:48 <cmatheus> davidwood: associate issue in doc with working group issues
15:17:02 <cmatheus> gavin: I didnt see an issue for the one Eric added?
15:17:11 <ericP> ericP has changed the topic to: RDF-WG weekly meeting - Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.06
15:17:16 <cmatheus> ericP:  I'm not sure there's an issue for that
15:17:30 <cmatheus> davidwood: there's an issue that hasn't been openned and we should
15:17:38 <gavinc> AndyS, where?
15:17:57 <Zakim> +??P11
15:18:00 <cmatheus> gavin: if there is one it would be good to be able to link to it
15:18:03 <AndyS> gavinc - in the abstract (in tip)
15:18:06 <pchampin> zakim, ??P11 is me
15:18:06 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
15:18:30 <cmatheus> davidwood: we have 9 issues that have been raised and not openned
15:18:34 <AndyS> gavinc - not a block on FPWD
15:19:12 <cmatheus> I'd rather use tracker to track issues so we should raise issues for these
15:19:42 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/new
15:19:46 <AndyS> ISSUE-13?
15:19:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-13 -- Review RDF XML Literals -- open
15:19:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/13
15:19:56 <cmatheus> gavinc:  why don't I create a place holder one and we can use that
15:20:22 <cmatheus> davidwood: issue 12 has been closed
15:21:14 <Zakim> -cmatheus
15:21:26 <cmatheus> cygri: issue 12 isn't closed
15:21:46 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
#15:21:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr (muted), davidwood, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, mbrunati, MacTed (muted), LeeF, mischat_ (muted), AlexHall, tomayac, zwu2 (muted), AndyS, iand, EricP.a, PatHayes,
15:21:49 <Zakim> ... cygri, pchampin (muted)
15:21:52 <cmatheus> I JUST LOST MY PHONE CONNECTION -- COULD SOMEONE SCRIBE UNTIL I GET BACK ON?
15:22:28 <Zakim> + +33.4.72.69.aacc
15:22:35 <pchampin> zakim, aacc is me
15:22:35 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
15:22:54 <mischat> gavinc: : sandro asked about a change to turtle to allow <script> tags to inject turtle into an HTML document 
15:22:55 <Zakim> +??P15
15:23:00 <cmatheus> I'm back
15:23:39 <mischat> zakim, ??P15 is cmatheus 
15:23:39 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it
15:23:45 <mischat> zakim, mute cmatheus 
15:23:45 <Zakim> cmatheus should now be muted
15:24:21 <Zakim> -zwu2
15:24:35 <mischat> gavinc: mentions that the examples in the source code of the current working spec is in the format which sandro asked for 
15:24:50 <Zakim> +zwu2
15:24:53 <cmatheus> davidwood:  it's been well supported by browsers but not not by developers -- worth calling out.
15:25:04 <mischat> davidwood: doesn't think that the <script> tag approach isn't that well known by developers, and should be highlighted by this group
15:25:06 <cmatheus> gavinc: I can stick it in there
15:25:46 <cmatheus> davidwood:  we're trying to move this into a working draft -- what's it look like on your schedule as far as moving this into a working draft?
15:25:52 <cmatheus> gavinc: I'd like to
15:25:57 <cmatheus> ericp: I'd like to
15:26:02 <mischat> this is sandro email about the <script/> tag http://www.w3.org/mid/1307483315.2989.75.camel@waldron FWIW
15:26:03 <iand> +1 to publishing turtle draft as wd
15:26:18 <mischat> +1 to the turtle draft as a wd
15:26:20 <cmatheus> davidwood:  why don't we just do that in this meeing?
15:26:26 <PatH> +1
15:26:31 <davidwood> +1
15:26:32 <yvesr> +1
15:26:32 <mischat> +1
15:26:33 <zwu2> +1
15:26:34 <iand> +1
15:26:34 <mbrunati> +1
15:26:34 <AndyS> +1 to publishing Turtle doc as WD
15:26:37 <ericP> +1
15:26:38 <tomayac> +1
15:26:39 <cmatheus> if the editors are ready I propose we move the turtle doc to a working draft today
15:26:40 <AlexHall> +1
15:26:44 <LeeF> +1
15:26:45 <cmatheus> cmatheus: +1
15:26:45 <gavinc> +1 to publishing turtle as FPWD
15:26:50 <NickH> +1
15:26:57 <cmatheus> davidwood: so resolved
15:27:09 <pchampin> +1
15:27:13 <cygri> q+�
15:27:21 <davidwood> RESOLVED: Move http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html to Working Draft.
15:27:25 <cygri> q?
15:27:36 <cmatheus> thank you for that -- it's looking good
15:28:18 <cmatheus> cygri: is this a good time to consider doing an editors' draft of the RDF Concepts doc
15:28:36 <ericP> Proposed text: Note that Turtle can be embedded in <script></script> or <pre></pre> elements. Embedding in a script element <script type="text/turtle"><CDATA[[ turtle hear ]]></script> will not be displayed by browsers, while <pre class="data"> turtle here </pre>. In the second example, you may use a class to alter display or to signify that it can be parsed as text/turtle.
15:28:37 <cmatheus> only some minor changes are needed but it is in a state to be considered as a working draft
15:28:42 <PatH> surely though the graph terminology should be in Concepts, no?
15:28:55 <cmatheus> davidwood: I agree it's time to move it to a working draft state
15:29:07 <yvesr> PatH, indeed
15:29:15 <gavinc> ericP, that's not exactly accurate, but something like that yeah
15:29:20 <cmatheus> I haven't looked at the document in about 10 days
15:29:49 <cmatheus> propose we make this a topic for the next meeting, July 20th.
15:29:57 <PatH> july, maybe?
15:30:12 <cmatheus> look over the Concepts doc over the next fortnight, is that okay with you?
15:30:13 <gavinc> ericP, pre.example script { display:block; } for example in the turtle spec 
15:30:21 <cmatheus> cygri: yes that's great
15:30:31 <cmatheus> davidwood: I'll make sure it gets on the agenda
15:30:44 <ericP> gavinc, sounds good
Topic: Graphs
15:31:03 <cmatheus> davidwood: we've now left the tutrle draft and are moving onto graphs
15:31:20 <cmatheus> Lee, can you lead this discussion in absence of minutes?
15:31:38 <cmatheus> LeeF: I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to lead this discussion today.
15:31:52 <cmatheus> davidwood: okay. 
15:32:18 <cmatheus> Richard, it seems you were asked to create minutes from an earlier telecom.  will you be able to do that task?
15:32:39 <danbri> danbri has joined #rdf-wg
15:32:39 <cmatheus> cygri:  it completely fell off my radar so I didn't make minutes from it
15:32:43 <ericP> q+
15:32:47 <cmatheus> will do so first thing tomorrow
15:32:49 <mischat> i too think that the graph terminology should go into the concept document 
15:33:04 <cmatheus> davidwood: please send a url to the minutes when they are ready
15:33:06 <davidwood> ack ericP
15:33:14 <davidwood> ack \ 
15:33:17 <davidwood> :)
15:33:19 <gavinc> ack �
15:33:24 <cmatheus> ericp:  if you want something that takes minutes and dumps them as html you can pass them to me
15:33:38 <cmatheus> cygri:  sounds good, I'll do that
15:34:26 <cmatheus> davidwood: in absence of Lee today I suggest we go through things opened in June 29 telecom, unless someone has a better idea for today's time
15:34:44 <cmatheus> let's go to issue 14: whats a named graph and what should we call it?
15:34:56 <PatH> q+
15:35:13 <cmatheus> Sandro has proposed the term gbox which we have consensus on
15:35:20 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:35:25 <Zakim> -zwu2
15:35:26 <MacTed> s/sandor/sandro/
15:35:30 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatHayes (15%), pchampin.a (25%), AndyS (25%), davidwood (45%)
15:35:33 <cmatheus> we now need to align this with SPARQL documents which are much further along
15:35:37 <davidwood> ack PatH
15:35:56 <cmatheus> path: we're having discussions on email on this topic - not sure of the state they're in
15:36:17 <cmatheus> some progress is being made, not sure what you want to do now
15:36:26 <Zakim> +??P22
15:36:36 <cmatheus> davidwood: everyone seems to want to see minutes from that telecom.
15:36:46 <Zakim> +zwu2
15:36:58 <NickH> Zakim, ??P22 is me
15:36:58 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
15:37:05 <cmatheus> let's take a quick look down the issues list and see if there's one that we can make progress on
15:37:05 <cygri> ISSUE-38?
15:37:05 <trackbot> ISSUE-38 -- What new vocabulary should be added to RDF to talk about graphs? -- raised
15:37:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/38
15:37:08 <NickH> Zakim, mute me
15:37:08 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Topic: Issue 38
15:37:29 <cmatheus> leef:  issue 38 hasn't been discussed yet so there's nothing preventing progress on it today
15:37:46 <gavinc> s/leef/gavinc
15:37:53 <mischat> list of issues FWIW http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/
15:37:56 <cygri> q+
15:37:59 <cmatheus> davidwood: let's jump into 38 to see where we get
15:38:09 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:38:16 <cmatheus> some talk on this but it's a bit stale
15:38:53 <cmatheus> cygri: rdb2rdf working group is talking about whether we (rdf-wg) have a default graph and can we (rdb2rdf-wg) use that
15:39:13 <AndyS> q+
15:39:16 <mischat> i wonder if there is any consensus with regards to what the default graph is  
15:39:17 <ericP> i'm afraid of a graph name for the default graph
15:39:20 <PatH> what is THE default graph?
15:39:25 <cmatheus> can we get from the rdf-wg some concept of a default graph that we can use in SPARQL?
15:39:34 <ericP> PatH, it's MY default graph
15:39:48 <cmatheus> davidwood: this seems to be conflating issue 29 and 38, but it's a good point, I agree with that
15:39:51 <PatH> There is no notion of default anything in the RDF model.
15:39:52 <davidwood> ack AndyS
15:40:21 <gavinc> Mmm, do DataSets need names too? /me ducks
15:40:22 <ericP>  file://localhost/~ ?
15:40:23 <cmatheus> andys: there isn't a default graph, as Pat's noted
15:40:32 <PatH> Ah. So default is a property of datasets whose value is a g-box.
15:40:49 <PatH>  rdf:defaultGraphOf
15:40:55 <cmatheus> davidwood: you were vocal about the fact that not every default graph sits in a database
15:40:59 <gavinc> I think so PatH
15:41:31 <cmatheus> when the entire graph resides in a file the file's url is the default graph -- do you recall this discussion?
15:41:34 <cmatheus> andys: no
15:41:35 <davidwood> s/default//
15:42:00 <PatH> q+
15:42:10 <davidwood> ack PatH
15:42:12 <cmatheus> there isn't a web addressable name for the default graph because it's context dependent
15:42:15 <ericP> there are lots of ambiguous URLs
15:42:48 <cmatheus> path: it's a property of data sets whose value is a graph
15:43:02 <cmatheus> fit's into the rdf model perfectly if its a property
15:43:31 <cmatheus> davidwood: I don't ink there's a problem with that.  question is is it mandatory and if the location changes does the name change?
15:43:35 <AndyS> ericP, not in this sense (I hope!).  file://localhost/.. hides context in localhost
15:43:42 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:44:00 <cmatheus> path: if the state has changed but the name stays the same there's an issue
15:44:04 <ericP> AndyS, true
15:44:32 <AndyS> ?? :datasetbase rdb2rdf:defaultGraph [ .... ]
15:44:37 <cmatheus> davidwood: if you hash a serialization of a graph and you tweak some property of the graph you get a different hash
15:44:45 <ericP> i'd expect that, if i were e.g. reading a test manifest and find n graphs asserted to be the default graph, i'd put them all into the default graph
15:44:50 <cmatheus> path: isn't that true of any hashable argument
15:44:55 <MacTed> q+
15:44:56 <cmatheus> davidwood:  true
15:44:57 <Zakim> +Vicki
15:45:00 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:45:00 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:45:05 <AZ> zakim, I am Vicki
15:45:05 <Zakim> ok, AZ, I now associate you with Vicki
15:45:14 <mischat> as it stands we can only sign serialisations anyway 
15:45:16 <davidwood> q?
15:45:17 <gavinc> really? graphs are madness? ;)
15:45:26 <cmatheus> the naming is metadata that's outside of the graph -- get recursion problem of meta data, and meta-meta data and there lies madness
15:46:02 <cmatheus> path: things that are named by uri's are changeable but we want the name to stay the same -- this raises a lot of issues for rdf that I don't think we can solve
15:46:10 <cmatheus> this would get very difficult
15:46:11 <AndyS> ARQ uses <urn:x-arq:DefaultGraph> which is very poor modeling but very useful (as per rdb2rdf UC)  GRAPH<urn:x-arq:DefaultGraph> {...} works :-)
15:46:28 <cmatheus> davidwood:  if you change a graph you 've got a copy of a graph that's a very different thing
15:46:36 <davidwood> ack MacTed
15:46:39 <cmatheus> I think I agree with you  and it's not an issue
15:46:46 <cygri> AndyS, that would work for us. We use rr:defaultGraph
15:47:05 <cmatheus> MacTed: if we say once we name something that it never chances then we've got problems
15:47:05 <AndyS> cygri, as property? As resource?
15:47:17 <cmatheus> I've been the same person all my life but I've changed over time
15:47:26 <PatH> Thi sis what we have the g-box/graph distinction for.
15:47:32 <cmatheus> the graph that describes me changes over time but it still describes me
15:47:48 <PatH> GRAPHS DO NOT CHANGE.
15:47:49 <cygri> AndyS: <... some mapping rules ...> rr:targetGraph rr:defaultGraph.
15:47:54 <cmatheus> this is a problem that needs to be changed - immutability of descriptions needs to come into play soon
15:48:14 <cmatheus> need complete set of identifiers that nail down a document at a given point in time
15:48:17 <pchampin> q+
15:48:30 <cmatheus> I'm not comfortable I have gbox and gtext names right in my head yet
15:48:48 <cmatheus> WHO'S TALKING PLEASE?
15:48:54 <PatH> Andy
15:48:55 <cmatheus> thanks
15:49:37 <cygri> q+
15:49:45 <cmatheus> andys: in a perfect snapshot of the web (no changes, everything static) if you give a name to the graph which is a uri it needs to go to the same place
15:49:59 <PatH> Right, so default-graph is a property even in a static Web. 
15:50:04 <cmatheus> that concept of the world doesn't work if you use a uri for the default graph
15:50:13 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise ?
15:50:16 <davidwood> ack pchampin
#15:50:23 <Zakim> mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pchampin.a (34%), davidwood (24%), MacTed (30%)
15:50:26 <AZ> zakim, mute me
15:50:26 <Zakim> Vicki should now be muted
15:50:49 <cmatheus> pchampin:  I agree with pat about the default graph.
15:50:52 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:50:52 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:50:56 <AndyS> cygri - rr:defaultGraph names what resource?  GET rr:defaultGraph --> ?
15:50:59 <cmatheus> the problem comes from the misuse of the default graph
15:51:27 <cygri> AndyS, why presume that you can GET graph names?
15:51:32 <cmatheus> if you think of he default graph as a gbox then things work
15:51:46 <cygri> AndyS, GET rr:defaultGraph, you get the R2RML vocabulary document
15:51:52 <cmatheus> andys: it can be a gsnap and you can freeze everything
15:52:07 <cmatheus> davidwood: makes sense to me in a database context
15:52:22 <ericP> when do we care about naming the totality of a graph?
15:52:25 <PatH> The issue, I think, is that if :Store is labile, then  ( :store rdf:defaultGraphIs :graph .) can change truthvalue when :store is updated.
15:52:26 <ericP> defining inferential closure
15:52:27 <mischat> +1 to pchampin explanation, i wonder why the RDF WG are worrying about the default graphs, surely these are triplestore/sparql related. and as far as I can tell are vendor specific in the world of triplestore  
15:52:28 <cmatheus> not true for rdf users who never use an rdf store
15:52:28 <ericP> writing tests
15:52:45 <AndyS> cygri, conceptually, names can be resolved.  I am asking if it is the name of a graph and so is GET <someURL> if it's http://
15:52:47 <cmatheus> there's danger in using terms that don't apply to larger community
15:52:51 <davidwood> q?
15:53:13 <cmatheus> andys: we must keep in  mind that when we say graph sometimes we mean gbox, something gsnap
15:53:23 <PatH> q+
15:53:48 <cmatheus> in this case I think it means gbox
15:53:59 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:54:05 <mischat> i guess when you execute a sparql query on a sparql store, you are getting results on a g-snap
15:54:18 <cmatheus> cygri: in reply to Andy from earlier...
15:54:34 <cmatheus> I don't think there's an assumption that the graph name has to resolve to the graph
15:54:44 <cmatheus> not sure what the basis is for such a presumption
15:54:49 <PatH> RDG graph is (defined to be) a set, in the mathematical sense of "set". Mathematical sets don't change. 
15:55:11 <cmatheus> from that point of view I don't see a problem with assigning a uri to a graph
15:55:14 <AndyS> q+
15:55:27 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
15:55:28 <cmatheus> another point, maybe it's good to think back to use cases
15:55:42 <cmatheus> there's a wiki page from months ago of really good use cases
15:55:55 <yvesr> +1 to think back of use cases
15:55:58 <cmatheus> SPAQRL as it stands can address most of these use case
15:56:18 <pchampin> well, Richard, http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/ suggests that graph URIs *could*, in some situations, resolve to the content of the graph
15:56:24 <cmatheus> might be goog to see which use cases break when we use the SPARQL design
15:56:33 <davidwood> ack PatH
15:56:35 <PatH> goog, but not good.
15:56:45 <cmatheus> davidwood: this is fundamentally the argument -- theory vs. practice
15:56:55 <cmatheus> path: I pretty much agree with Richard
15:57:22 <AndyS> ack me
15:57:44 <AndyS> (was just about default graph -- different from other naming UCs)
15:57:45 <cmatheus> however, if we introduce rdf terminology for the default graph then we can say something is the "default graph" -- then its truth value can change when the data stored is changed
15:57:53 <cmatheus> cygri; is this always the case?
15:58:02 <cmatheus> path: no
15:58:05 <yvesr> linked data changes a lot...
15:58:10 <yvesr> like any other data on the web
15:58:11 <pchampin> s/is this/isn't this/
15:58:18 <yvesr> look at wikipedia!
15:58:24 <cmatheus> if these things are going to be changing their state very rapidly what's the point of creating them
15:58:27 <Zakim> -tomayac
15:58:51 <cmatheus> cygri: even if a triple is valid for only a few milliseconds that's fine if that's what you need
15:58:52 <AndyS> FROM <graph1> => one default graph ... elsewhere FROM <graph2> ==> different default graph ... even in a fully static world.
15:58:58 <cmatheus> path: let me back off and agree
15:59:20 <cmatheus> we shouldn't make it illegal but we should draw attention to it and warn people about it
15:59:46 <cmatheus> triples that change quickly is different from the original intended use of RDF
16:00:07 <cmatheus> davidwood: five years ago rdf databases were read optimized
16:00:16 <cmatheus> we don't see that in the world now at all
16:00:24 <Zakim> -yvesr
16:00:34 <davidwood> q?
16:00:37 <AlexHall> we store a lot of system state in an rdf database, and it's subject to frequent change. we also don't tend to expose that mutable state outside our system.
16:00:41 <cmatheus> there are massive deletes, rapid writes.  this has been a sea change in the way people use rdf in the last few years
16:00:51 <pchampin> q+
16:01:04 <cmatheus> path: okay, but if we do this and start using this terminology a lot of people are going to be surprised
16:01:14 <mischat> we are current doing > 2000 queries/updates per second on our live sparql store
16:01:20 <LeeF> I think it might be useful to have test cases that exhibit the difference between these two approaches to terminology -- what actually changes?
16:01:29 <Zakim> -NickH
16:01:59 <cmatheus> path: the gbox and gsnap concepts we have we defined and gsnaps are the mathematical graphs
16:02:14 <cygri> q+
16:02:21 <davidwood> q?
16:02:22 <cmatheus> davidwood: we mean graph differently when we talk about gbox, gsnap and gtext
16:02:25 <pchampin> q-
16:02:39 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:02:48 <cmatheus> cygri: I strongly agree
16:03:11 <cmatheus> big problem here.  have two conflicting uses of the word graph
16:03:30 <cmatheus> rdf graph - an immutable set
16:03:47 <AndyS> q+
16:03:55 <cmatheus> named graph in sparql - a graph is something mutable.  can update it and it still has the same name
16:03:59 <LeeF> In the Anzo APIs, we use the term "named graph" for the mutable things
#16:04:01 <Zakim> -EricP.a
16:04:03 <cmatheus> there's confusion in the two uses of the word graph
16:04:20 <davidwood> ack AndyS
16:04:23 <PatH> q+
16:04:24 <iand> might be worth considering the sparql graph as being a container of triples
16:04:37 <zwu2> I doubt end users care about these differences. they probably don't even realize the differences
16:04:40 <cmatheus> these are fundamentally different in what they mean and we need to do some about this
16:04:53 <cmatheus> andys; named graph are not behaving like the default graph
16:05:27 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:05:28 <cmatheus> the default graph is relative to the store and are unlike what uris give us
16:05:29 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:05:31 <iand> yes
16:05:37 <cmatheus> davidwood: I might challenge that
16:06:09 <cmatheus> iand - can you discuss your expectations on this
16:06:09 <mischat> indeed AndyS and different stores have implemented their defaults graphs in different ways 
16:06:14 <PatH> hard to hear
16:06:18 <cygri> AndyS: i think i don't fully agree. <foo> in my graph and in your graph can be different
16:06:45 <cmatheus> iand:  garble grable...
16:07:00 <AndyS> cygri - true can be different but consider completely static world 
16:07:02 <cmatheus> what does named graph identifier mean?
16:07:09 <cmatheus> a tag for the graph or an identified for the graph?
16:07:21 <AndyS> ... default graph different  - not same info 
16:07:23 <AndyS> ...  Example: FROM <graph1> => one default graph ... elsewhere FROM <graph2> => different default graph
16:07:28 <cmatheus> if it's an identifier then you should expect the same graph wherever you are 
16:07:28 <cygri> q+
16:07:49 <cmatheus> if it's a tag you don't have the expectation that it is the same graph
16:07:52 <davidwood> ack PatH
16:08:08 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:08:29 <cmatheus> cygri: what Ian mentioned is different from the one I brought up earlier
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16:09:00 <cmatheus> regardless of whether you consider the iri in a named graph as an identifier or a tag there's still the fact the named graphs name things you can update
16:09:07 <cmatheus> rdf graphs are not like that
16:09:13 <AlexHall> problem is, the notion of "default graph" is always relative to some context
16:09:14 <AndyS> mischat - yes - dft graph as union of named graphs shows its different in different places as well.
16:09:28 <tomayac> tomayac has joined #rdf-wg
16:09:34 <pchampin> but we can still name g-snaps and g-boxes, can't we??
16:09:35 <cmatheus> rdf graphs are more like gboxs and named graphs are more like gsnaps
16:09:50 <davidwood> q?
16:09:52 <AndyS> ... makes me nervous about it having a URI : property or class, not individual.
16:09:54 <cmatheus> SPARQL doesn't make any assumptions about how you use the graph
16:10:00 <pchampin> q+
16:10:25 <PatH> q+
16:10:26 <cmatheus> I hear a number of people here pushing to the position where a global iri would be used in this name graph
16:10:53 <PatH> RIGHT
16:11:01 <pchampin> ack me
16:11:07 <cmatheus> davidwood:maybe we need to talk about naming gsnaps and gboxes in different ways
16:11:13 <iand> q+ mirroring data and portability of sparql (will type not use phone)
16:11:23 <iand> q+ to ask about mirroring data and portability of sparql (will type not use phone)
16:11:44 <cmatheus> pchampin: it sounded like Richard was claiming we could only name one kind of graph but I think we can name both
16:11:59 <cmatheus> but we need to keep these notion separate
16:12:08 <mischat> i would like the term graph used in sparql as is, as it is used in practice, and for the RDF WG to use less ambiguous terms as spec'ed out in our previous conversation re:  g-*. This discussion should probably be kept to the concepts document, and in any quad based serialisation
16:12:15 <cmatheus> I agree that sparql doesn't make an assumption about the use of iri
16:12:34 <cmatheus> but if you have control of an iri you can make the graph available when getting the iri
16:13:03 <cmatheus> in sparql the iri is homogenous to a resource in the query
16:13:48 <cmatheus> we are naming graphs with a resource not an iri
16:14:05 <cmatheus> Leef: you can name anything with a uri
16:14:07 <gavinc> "A "g-snap" as an idealized snapshot of a g-box; "
16:14:11 <cmatheus> davidwood: but do you have to?
16:14:16 <davidwood> ack PatH
16:14:29 <MacTed> s/LeeF/MacTed/
16:14:32 <pchampin> you can name a g-snap with a literal (the corresponding g-text)
16:14:33 <cmatheus> path: this discussion could have taken place in any context having to do with computer science
16:14:45 <cmatheus> we have a dilema
16:14:57 <cmatheus> 1st - I agree you can name anything with an iri
16:15:00 <iand> are we just saying that there is a property sparql:graph that has a domain of sparql:Dataset and range of rdf:gsnap
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16:15:06 <gavinc> Name g-boxes, if you want to name a specific g-snap make a new damn g-box and never change it's contents 
16:15:16 <cmatheus> most people will use iri's to refer to graphs and others with use them for gboxes
16:15:18 <MacTed> the issue seems to be -- "how do we change 'named graph' everywhere to 'named g-box'?"
16:15:33 <cmatheus> can't have different conventions for naming the two - people won't use it
16:15:48 <cmatheus> people will want to use same name for the two types of graph
16:15:49 <Zakim> -iand
16:15:49 <MacTed> actually...  currently "named graph" is used for both, g-snaps and g-boxes
16:16:00 <cmatheus> the ambiguity of naming is going to be with us in the real world
16:16:18 <cmatheus> next thought - maybe we can have a different type of property
16:16:21 <davidwood> PatH: Ambiguity of naming will be with us whether we like it or not.
16:16:22 <Zakim> +iand
16:16:37 <cmatheus> some apply to the state some apply to the object transcending the state
16:17:03 <pchampin> so you mean that property rdf:numberOfTriples would actually mean "number of triples in the current state of that g-box" ?
16:17:04 <cmatheus> having coercion for the property isn't going to work
16:17:21 <cmatheus> take rdf:type -- we would have to have two different types, one for object one for state
16:17:27 <iand> +1 to macted's suggestion of changing "named graph" to "named gbox"
16:17:38 <gavinc> "we should learn to cope with ambiguity in URIs"
16:17:40 <cmatheus> if a name is used ambiguously there's nothing we can do about it
16:17:49 <PatH> gavinc :-)
16:18:24 <mischat> jeni blogged about this stuff yesterday, worth a read http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/159 
16:18:43 <cmatheus> cmatheus: I need to end scribing here, sorry
16:18:48 <Zakim> -cygri
16:18:54 <cmatheus> I'll wait until later tomorrow to edit the minutes
16:18:55 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:18:57 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:18:58 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
16:19:01 <mbrunati> hi guys
16:19:04 <Zakim> -AZ
16:19:05 <Zakim> -mbrunati
16:19:06 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:19:11 <Zakim> -mischat_
16:19:13 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
16:19:14 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:19:17 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:19:19 <Zakim> -cmatheus
16:19:21 <Zakim> -gavinc
16:19:26 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:19:38 <PatH> Current best guess for terminology is 'graph resource' for anything mutable that emits graph representations; 'graph' for snaps, and 'graph representation' for g-texts. THis fits with the REST terminology and allows the use of 'graph' for them all when people are being sloppy.
16:19:40 <gavinc>  Process question.... how do we publish a WD of Turtle? :D
16:20:05 <davidwood> Ask Sandro :)
16:20:14 <gavinc> He said not to if we were using Respec ;)
16:20:23 <Zakim> -PatHayes
16:20:45 <pchampin> ...but we will however ;)
16:20:49 <AndyS> +1 to PatH (I think ...)
16:21:12 <gavinc> +1 to PatH 
16:21:21 <mischat> does the 'graph' for snaps match with the GRAPH verb in sparql
16:21:37 <mischat> i guess it does when thinking about queries, not sure when thinking about updates
16:22:18 <AndyS> query usage and update usage are different ... query world is static so g-box/g-snap binding is fixed
16:22:26 <Zakim> -iand
16:23:10 <AndyS> SPARQL 1.0 does not fix GRAPH uri (much careful wording)  and the wording is not designed for SPARQL 1.1 update 
16:23:12 <gavinc> the GRAPH verb means a graph resource in UPDATE and a graph in SELECT/CONSTRUCT
16:23:18 <gavinc> ?
16:24:29 <AndyS> Best rewording I can make is SPARQL 1.0 "associates" a URI with a g-snap.  Different apps associate differently (name of web location for data, unique nema for action of reading).
16:24:47 <gavinc> Anyway, be around later today and will tag a revision for the WD for the Turtle document 
16:25:18 <AndyS> In update there is also (URI, g-box) pair which is definitely a g-box in local store.
16:25:26 <davidwood> gavinc, see http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html#configuration to change the specStatus to WD
16:25:28 <pchampin> agreed
16:26:20 <AndyS> 'cos if you change it, you see the change but someone else's store does not change (or generally people get upset :-) 
16:26:38 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
#16:26:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, pchampin, pchampin.a
16:26:46 <gavinc> Yeah, know how to do that David, what to do AFTER that is somewhat confusing ;)
16:26:58 <gavinc> Will have a tagged HTML document by the end of today
16:27:09 <davidwood> gavinc, is there anything else to do?  I think it will auto-update the header.
16:27:31 <davidwood> "The specStatus is used to pick the base style sheet, as well as to configure various parts of the specification's header and Status of this Document. "
16:27:52 <AndyS> gavinc, when you find out how to pub respec, coudl yo ulet me know as I have a respec note to do.  There is someway to get pure HTML out apparently.
16:28:07 <gavinc> Yeah, that will just leave it in HG and using javascript
16:28:16 <gavinc> step 2 is get some XHTML to publish
16:29:57 <gavinc> it's First Public Working Draft isn't it?
16:30:04 <gavinc> some process wonk around?
16:30:10 <davidwood> Yes, I suppose so
16:30:40 <Zakim> -davidwood
#16:30:42 <Zakim> -pchampin.a
16:31:07 <davidwood> gavinc, I'm still reading the Respec page...
16:31:40 <davidwood> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:31:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html davidwood
16:31:48 <gavinc> sandro, you around?
16:32:11 <davidwood> gavinc, http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html#saving-the-generated-specification
16:32:37 <davidwood> "The solution that is used here is that you hit the Ctrl+Shift+Alt+S key combination (this is subject to change until we agree on an option we all like). That will show a menu offering to either "Save as HTML", "Save as HTML (Source)", "Save as XHTML", or "Save as XHTML (Source)". You can hit Esc to hide it."
16:32:44 <gavinc> Yeah
16:33:06 <davidwood> Then I suppose you put it into the WG's mercurial repo.
16:33:21 <gavinc> mmmm
16:33:26 <davidwood> davidwood has left #rdf-wg
16:34:07 <davidwood> davidwood has joined #rdf-wg
16:34:43 <davidwood> Do you have the details for that?  There was an email to the list...
16:34:54 <gavinc> Yeah, yeah
16:35:07 <gavinc> it's where the document is living 
16:35:43 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, pchampin, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
16:35:44 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
#16:35:47 <Zakim> Attendees were davidwood, AndyS, yvesr, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, cmatheus, MacTed, mbrunati, LeeF, pchampin, mischat_, +1.443.212.aabb, AlexHall, tomayac, zwu2, iand, EricP.a,
16:35:50 <Zakim> ... PatHayes, cygri, +33.4.72.69.aacc, NickH, AZ
16:36:47 <davidwood> I think Sandro is happy to deal with publishing HTML to a URI :)
16:37:44 <gavinc> the short name is Turtle yes?
16:37:52 <davidwood> Yes
16:38:38 <davidwood> I suggest saving the document from Respc to XHTML, adding the saved file into the WG's hg repo and telling Sandro he needs to publish it to the appropriate URL.  Does that work for you?
16:38:49 <gavinc> yep yep
16:38:55 <gavinc> I think :D
16:39:16 <davidwood> Richard's message with hg instructions is at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0012.html
16:39:24 <gavinc> Yeah, I have hg all working 
16:39:28 <davidwood> oh, good
16:39:29 <gavinc> that's how we've been editing
16:39:38 <gavinc> and publishing EDs
16:40:10 <davidwood> We'll all learn something about this as you do it.  Isn't it nice to be first? :)
16:41:52 <gavinc> Oh
16:41:53 <gavinc> damn
16:42:01 <gavinc> still have to fix biblio DB
16:43:57 <davidwood> oops
17:01:52 <gavinc> Victory! http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/Turtle-FPWD/rdf-turtle/index.html
17:02:55 <davidwood> gavinc, Thanks!
17:03:10 <gavinc> now to save the XHTML
17:07:55 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/built-xhtml/FPWD.html built XHTML
17:08:23 <ericP> gavinc, will you be online later to chat about turtle?
17:08:35 <ericP> (editing details)
17:08:39 <gavinc> Yes, taking kids to train park, back in the afternoon
17:08:43 <ericP> cool
17:09:40 <ericP> seen the train museum one stop north of san jose on caltrain?
17:10:03 <gavinc> Yep!
17:17:16 <ericP> i always try to make connections through there. fabulously interesting and low-key museum
17:18:26 <ericP> gavinc, should i pester you or ralph about topquadrant tech for embedding sparql query results in html?
17:45:32 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
18:24:24 <mischat> mischat has joined #rdf-wg
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20:54:21 <ericP> gavinc, back?
21:46:01 <gavinc> Yes
21:46:03 <gavinc> ;)
21:46:30 <gavinc> You here?
21:51:02 <gavinc> ericP, ping!
21:51:42 <ericP> heya
21:51:57 <ericP> sounds like if we want to fix stuff in turtle, we should do it tonight
21:52:31 <gavinc> at least before a FPWD, yeah, ... though there is one checked in now ;)
21:53:59 <gavinc> One current oddity is that parts of the document (mostly the abstract at this point) talk about how compatable with N3 Turtle is, where as the compared to N3 section now (correctly?) points out that while N3 was the largest input into Turtle that compatibility isn't really a goal of Turtle any longer
21:54:41 <gavinc> The table for the BNF is still a bit of a mess, never did get yacker to generate what you had from before (Maybe it was hand done after yacker?)
21:56:20 <gavinc> Also still have the are we defining N-Triples as an appendix inside Turtle or as a separate document 
22:12:25 <ericP> did it 
22:12:55 <ericP> did the document get moved to a new place? or do we still edit what we've been editing?
22:13:07 <gavinc> same place
22:15:26 <ericP> cool
22:16:37 <gavinc> the one tagged for the CfC is http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/Turtle-FPWD/rdf-turtle/index.html but the tip is back to an ED for more editing 
22:28:03 <ericP> should i dink with the grammar tonight?
22:31:45 <gavinc> Yeah, I think the HTML needs help
22:32:03 <gavinc> I didn't know if I was missing something in how to get yacker to what you had it do
22:32:14 <gavinc> or if all the numbering and terminal spliting was done by hand
22:32:53 <gavinc> Did go so far as to spend about 3 hours seeing if I could parse the EBNF directly in javascript and output the HTML that way ;) 
22:32:57 <gavinc> then I thought better of it
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