Chatlog 2011-04-06

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14:58:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:13 <RRSAgent> logging to
14:58:14 <danbri_> regrets from me, am also in a meeting
14:58:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:58:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:18 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:58:18 <trackbot> Date: 06 April 2011
14:58:23 <danbri_> (though within earshot of guus)
14:58:24 <LeeF> trackbot, this will be rdfwg
14:58:24 <trackbot> Sorry, LeeF, I don't understand 'trackbot, this will be rdfwg'. Please refer to for help
14:58:29 <LeeF> zakim, this will be rdfwg
14:58:29 <Zakim> ok, LeeF, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
14:58:33 <Zakim> +??P24
14:58:36 <mischat_> mischat_ has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:41 <AndyS1> zakim, ??P24 is me
14:58:41 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it
14:58:41 <FabGandon> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:58:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, Tony, AndyS1
14:58:45 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:58:47 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:58 <LeeF> zakim, code?
14:58:58 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), LeeF
14:59:00 <Zakim> +gavinc
14:59:15 <Zakim> +??P17
14:59:20 <Zakim> +LeeF
14:59:42 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
14:59:46 <Zakim> +??P7
14:59:48 <Zakim> -Tony
14:59:54 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:57 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
15:00:13 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P17 is me
15:00:13 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
15:00:16 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:22 <Zakim> +Tony
15:00:54 <Zakim> + +43.512.507.aabb
15:01:00 <SteveH_> Zakim, ??P7 is [Garlik]
15:01:00 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it
15:01:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:09 <SteveH> Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH and mischat 
15:01:09 <Zakim> +SteveH, mischat; got it
15:01:28 <Zakim> +??P21
15:01:47 <Zakim> +Souri_
15:02:03 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:11 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:43 <Zakim> +AlexHall
15:02:57 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:08 <cygri> zakim, ??P21 is me
15:03:08 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:03:20 <Zakim> +PatH
15:03:29 <sandro> pchampin, you're scheduled to scribe today....
15:03:31 <hsbauer> I don't seem to be recognized on the call again:  Scott Bauer
15:03:36 <pchampin> yes
15:03:44 <pchampin> struggling with zakim to dial in
15:03:52 <pchampin> shouldn't take too long :-/
15:04:12 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
15:04:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, AndyS1, Sandro, gavinc, mbrunati, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Garlik], OlivierCorby, Tony, +43.512.507.aabb, cygri, Souri_,
15:04:15 <PatHayes> I had a few snags with zakim today.
15:04:15 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, PatH
15:04:15 <Zakim> [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:04:47 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:04:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, AndyS1, Sandro, gavinc, mbrunati, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Garlik], OlivierCorby, Tony, +43.512.507.aabb, cygri, Souri_,
15:04:51 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, PatH
15:04:51 <Zakim> [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:04:53 <SteveH> q-
15:05:00 <SteveH> queue=
15:05:06 <sandro> zakim, Tony is hsbauer 
15:05:06 <Zakim> +hsbauer; got it
15:05:12 <pchampin> can you remind me the conference code?
15:05:12 <Guus> q?
15:05:17 <hsbauer> thanks
15:05:19 <pchampin> rdfwg? 
15:05:20 <sandro> zakim, what is the code?
15:05:20 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), sandro
15:05:32 <Zakim> +Luca
15:05:33 <Guus> 73394
15:05:50 <pchampin> scribe: pchampin
15:07:01 <JFB> Sorry I won't be able to be on the phone today: my phone's not working....
15:38:45 <pchampin> topic: Announcement: Provenance WG
15:38:45 <pchampin> sandro: the provenance WG just started, interested participants should join it
15:07:09 <pchampin> topic: administrative
15:07:20 <pfps> minutes look good
15:07:22 <Zakim> +Luca.a
15:07:22 <pchampin> last week minutes
15:07:28 <Zakim> +zwu2
15:07:35 <m029206__> m029206__ has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:43 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:47 <pchampin> RESOLUTION: minutes accepted
15:07:53 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise?
15:08:03 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:08:03 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:08:04 <Zakim> mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luca.a (47%), +31.20.598.aaaa (76%), +43.512.507.aabb (4%)
15:08:11 <gavin>
15:08:15 <mischat> zakim, mute Luca.a
15:08:15 <Zakim> Luca.a should now be muted
15:08:17 <mischat> sorry
15:08:27 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:08:34 <pchampin> subtopic: open action items
15:08:49 <mischat>
15:09:05 <pchampin>
15:09:11 <Zakim> +??P8
15:09:21 <gavin> Most support SPARQL JSON results
15:09:29 <ww> ww has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:40 <ww> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, AndyS1, Sandro, gavinc, mbrunati, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Garlik], OlivierCorby, hsbauer, +43.512.507.aabb, cygri, Souri_,
15:09:43 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, PatH, Luca, Luca.a (muted), zwu2 (muted), ??P8
15:09:44 <Zakim> [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:09:45 <pchampin> drop action-6
15:09:49 <gavin> I'm unware of any that support anything else (other then Talis)
15:09:53 <sandro> close action-6
15:09:53 <trackbot> ACTION-6 Provide use case for graphs closed
15:09:56 <ww> zakim, ??P8 is me
15:09:56 <Zakim> +ww; got it
15:09:58 <pchampin> action-6: dropped
15:09:58 <trackbot> ACTION-6 Provide use case for graphs notes added
15:10:01 <pchampin> close action-6
15:10:01 <trackbot> ACTION-6 Provide use case for graphs closed
15:10:02 <ww> zakim, mute me
15:10:02 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
15:10:15 <mischat> gavin: i wasn't interested in SPARQL result formats. I was only interested in RDF imports and RDF serialisation outputted via the CONSTRUCT verb
15:10:17 <pchampin> action-19: done
15:10:17 <trackbot> ACTION-19 Make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild notes added
15:10:33 <mischat> zwu2: can you have a look at and could you update the Oracle support 
15:10:33 <pchampin> close action-19
15:10:33 <trackbot> ACTION-19 Make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild closed
15:10:37 <AndyS1> 
15:10:50 <AZ> \me don't know who I am on the phone
15:10:52 <pchampin> guus: thomas is not here, so action-20 is left pending
15:11:05 <pchampin> close action-24
15:11:05 <trackbot> ACTION-24 Collect issues and write a proposal standardizing N-Triples. closed
15:11:21 <pchampin> topic: F2F1
15:11:36 <pchampin> guus: an agenda has been posted on the mailing list
15:12:02 <sandro>
15:12:04 <pfps> q+
15:12:06 <dfensel6_> dfensel6_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:12:13 <Zakim> -Luca.a
15:12:18 <pchampin> ... it has been suggested to shift the schedule later
15:12:24 <pchampin> ... to make it easier for remote participants
15:12:38 <Zakim> +Luca.a
15:12:51 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:12:57 <AZ> Zakim, +Luca.a is me
15:12:57 <Zakim> sorry, AZ, I do not recognize a party named '+Luca.a'
15:13:01 <AZ> Zakim, Luca.a is me
15:13:01 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:13:04 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: +31.20.598.aaaa (3%), +43.512.507.aabb (4%)
15:13:08 <AZ> Zakim, mute me
15:13:08 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
15:13:48 <pchampin> ... We could move it 30minutes later on the first day.
15:14:07 <pfps> q+
15:14:14 <pchampin> ... and 1h later on the second day.
15:14:17 <sandro> PROPOSED: Move Day-1 agenda 30 minutes later, for people in other time zones, and Day-2 60 minutes later.   So business starts at 10am.
15:14:42 <pchampin> cygri: I have a plane, so 1h later is max for me
15:15:01 <pchampin> pfps: I also have a train on the evening
15:15:31 <pchampin> ... As the schedule has been announced, I think we should not change the schedule, at least on the 2nd day.
15:15:32 <ww> as remote participant, later is inconvenient for me, but i don't strongly object, defer to consensus
15:15:52 <sandro> sandro: let's put the breakouts first, since remote participation probable wont work....
15:16:03 <mischat>
15:16:07 <pfps> q-
15:16:10 <pchampin> guus: by moving the breakup, we can make it more convenient
15:16:21 <gavin> UTC+2
15:16:26 <sandro>
15:16:45 <gavin> UTC+2, GMT changes with BST ;)
15:17:16 <gavin> mmm... midnight telecon
15:17:20 <pchampin> guus: any objections to switch breakout and cleaning sessions on the 2nd day?
15:17:33 <pchampin> s/breakup/breakout/
15:18:05 <mbrunati> .)
15:18:06 <pchampin> ... or we still have the option of making the 2nd day only 30 minutes later
15:18:12 <sandro> Guus: Day 2 goes until 5pm, and I'll delay the first day 30 mins.
15:18:15 <LeeF> thank you, Guus.
15:18:25 <hsbauer> q+
15:19:04 <pchampin> guus: Ivan is not here, we have no further detail about the phone bridge
15:19:19 <mbrunati> at cwi, any suggestion where to go exactly?
15:19:36 <pchampin> sandro: I'll try to setup a video, so that remote participants can see the presents
15:19:40 <hsbauer> q-
15:19:41 <pchampin> ... bandwidth permitting
15:20:23 <pchampin> guus: normally the breakout sessions wil have no remote participants
15:20:44 <pchampin> ... but I will see if we can get a 2nd speaker phone
15:21:21 <sandro> pathayes
15:21:36 <LeeF> PatHayes +1000
15:21:42 <zwu2> very considerate :)
15:21:52 <pchampin> pathayes: it is difficult for remote participants to actually participate
15:22:19 <pchampin> ... we would need some "phone scribe" to ensure that they can 
15:22:43 <pchampin> topic: graph task force
15:22:51 <pchampin> guus: a number of issues have been raised
15:23:05 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:23:18 <pchampin> ... I propose we have a short discussion about each of them.
15:23:43 <sandro> ( Pat, I like this idea of someone who is charged with representing the remote participants.   I think their title should be "The Avatar."   :-)
15:23:44 <pchampin> ... Thanks to Richard for accepting to do a summary for the F2F.
15:23:52 <pchampin>
15:24:34 <pchampin> issue-5 is about defining a datatype for graph literals
15:25:01 <pchampin> sandro: N3 uses the {} to describe a g-snap
15:25:08 <ww> q+
15:25:18 <cygri> q+
15:25:23 <pchampin> ... it could be seen as a special literal, with a special datatype
15:25:35 <pchampin> ... and its own lexical/value spaces
15:25:45 <Guus> q?
15:25:53 <pchampin> ... The issue is: is this valuable? Do we want to keep that?
15:25:53 <ww> zakim, unmute me
15:25:53 <Zakim> ww should no longer be muted
15:26:26 <pchampin> ww: if we make datatypes like that, how would that affect blank node scoping rules?
15:26:45 <pchampin> ... (even if those rules are not completely explicit)
15:27:13 <pchampin> ... if a quoted graph is a literal, what happens to the bnodes it shares with the enclosing graph
15:27:16 <ww> zakim, mute me
15:27:16 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
15:27:20 <pchampin> sandto: if they are considered as literal,
15:27:23 <AndyS1> q+ to ask about N3 graphs and variables (? log:semantics)
15:27:25 <pchampin> ... there would be no sharing at all
15:27:38 <Guus> ack ww
15:27:44 <pchampin> cygri: I'm not sure it is particularly useful,
15:27:48 <ww> zakim, mute me
15:27:48 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
15:27:56 <Guus> ack cygri
15:28:23 <pchampin> ... maybe this could be part of a larger solution to a larger problem? 
15:28:25 <sandro> ( cygri sounds like he's in an underwater cavern )
15:28:40 <Guus> ack AndyS
15:28:40 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about N3 graphs and variables (? log:semantics)
15:28:56 <pchampin> sandro: not a solution for the moment, just something we should keep in mind
15:29:04 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:29:06 <cygri> (sandro, it's a hallway with really bad acoustics)
15:29:07 <AndyS1> ack me
15:29:35 <pchampin> andy: are you implying to also keep variables and more things from N3?
15:29:41 <sandro> sandro: I was really just suggesting a quick and easy way to get SOME of what N3 gives us, using datatype for graph literals.
15:29:54 <cygri> ISSUE-14?
15:29:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-14 -- What is a named graph and what should we call it? -- raised
15:29:54 <trackbot>
15:29:58 <PatH> Call it "named graph" ?
15:30:03 <gavin> +1 ;)
15:30:11 <AZ> +1
15:30:12 <pchampin> sandro: the idea is not to import those more complicated things
15:30:34 <sandro> Call it a Name-Graph-Binding.
15:30:44 <cygri> g-pair?
15:31:03 <PatH> They have been called 'named graphs' for about a decade now. Why change anything?
15:31:07 <gavin> SPARQL already refers to it as Named Graphs
15:31:33 <pchampin> sandro: find the term 'named graph' confusing, as for me graph means g-snap
15:32:01 <PatH> named numbers... Pi, root-2, ...
15:32:25 <Guus> q?
15:32:36 <pchampin> sandro: yes, mathematical graphs like numbers can have names
15:33:12 <cygri> q+
15:33:16 <pchampin> ... but it in the case of named graph, it seems to me that we want to name the binding
15:33:30 <pchampin> ... i.e. the graph bound to the name can change
15:33:35 <ww> i think i understand (named) graphs in a similar way to sandro
15:33:41 <sandro> "Named G-Box"
15:33:43 <Guus> ack cygri
15:33:53 <pchampin> PatH: in the original proposal, it was indeed graphs that were named
15:34:11 <PatH> named <whatever we decide to call g-boxes>
15:34:13 <pchampin> ... but you suggest that in practice, the *g-box* are named?
15:34:16 <pchampin> sandro: yes
15:34:33 <pchampin> cygri: you are assuming a particular proposal where the g-box are named
15:34:33 <PatH> <which I really sincerely hope will not be "g-box">
15:34:43 <pchampin> ... in that case, "named graph" does not make much sense
15:35:22 <pchampin> ... In SPARL, there are two notions:
15:35:29 <pchampin> ... dataset: a set of g-snaps
15:35:42 <cygri> graph store
15:35:51 <pchampin> graph store: a set of g-boxes
15:35:53 <cygri> (sorry for poor acoustics)
15:36:12 <pchampin> guus: do we need a notion of named g-snaps ?
15:36:17 <gavin> +q
15:36:43 <PatH> I think we might need the idea of a named g-snap, yes. Need to think about this more.
15:36:48 <LeeF> In Anzo, we use the term "named graph' for named g-box, despite the linguistic imprecision
15:36:48 <AndyS1> dataset can (often, does) indirect -- query over the value (g-snap)
15:36:58 <pchampin> sandro: I have never seen anyone with a good use case for named g-snap
15:37:04 <cygri> q+
15:37:33 <mischat> i hope that whatever happens here can we make sure that we align with SPARQL
15:37:33 <pchampin> guus: most use cases are about provenance, which is about naming g-box
15:37:38 <PatH> We can always think of a g-snap as a 'fixed' g-box. But then we would need to be able to clearly say that it is 'fixed' and what this means.
15:37:41 <pchampin> ... or am I over-interpreting?
15:38:05 <AndyS1> +1 to PatH
15:38:22 <ww> i tend to think that provenance actually has more to do with g-snaps
15:38:35 <dfensel6__> dfensel6__ has joined #rdf-wg
15:39:49 <pchampin> PatH: Naming of g-snaps is just naming of read-only r-boxes
15:39:51 <sandro> q+
15:39:51 <ww> +1
15:40:11 <sandro> q+ to talk about explicit metadata on gboxes & time
15:40:22 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:40:55 <pchampin> gavin: People seem to keep naming mutable g-boxes, not immutable g-boxes. 
15:41:00 <cygri> q-
15:41:06 <LeeF> ack gavin
15:41:10 <cygri> (too noisy here)
15:41:15 <PatH> Point well taken. I agree. Maybe we should leave this matter to the wide world to sort out.
15:41:28 <zwu2> +1
15:41:42 <pchampin> gavin: it could be useful to truy to name g-snaps, but I don't think anybody ever tried to do that
15:42:10 <cygri> i wanted to say: in sparql it's just g-snaps. sparql says nothing about what the named graph uri identifies. it's just a data structure for having multiple graphs. that's sufficient for many use cases 
15:42:12 <PatH> That was gavin's point about nobody having implemented this.
15:42:15 <pchampin> sandro: I like the idea of naming a g-box that does not change
15:42:42 <pchampin> ... but it is interesting also to talk about a g-box at a particulat instant in time
15:42:48 <PatH> If we can say <box>is immutable in RDF< then a box can say that it itself is immutable. 
15:43:21 <sandro> <box> rdf:type eg:ImmutableGBox
15:43:27 <FabGandon> +1
15:43:29 <pchampin> issue-15?
15:43:29 <trackbot> ISSUE-15 -- What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc -- raised
15:43:29 <trackbot>
15:43:58 <pchampin> guus: this issue has no owner
15:44:04 <pchampin> sandro: must be something I typed in the IRC
15:44:49 <pchampin> ... In several previous proposal, there is no explicit relationship between the IRI and the triples
15:45:04 <pchampin> ... In N3 there is a relationship, usually owl:sameAs
15:45:06 <PatH> Isnt this the same issue we were just talking about?
15:45:19 <PatH> OK
15:45:19 <pchampin> pchampin: @PathH yes, it seems to me
15:45:33 <pchampin> sandro: yes, they are related
15:45:38 <PatH> OK to leave them separate issues.
15:45:42 <ww> trig == n3 w/ implied owl:sameAs (and no nesting)
15:45:51 <cygri> ACTION: richard to write up the different options re ISSUE-15
15:45:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-25 - Write up the different options re ISSUE-15 [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-04-13].
15:46:21 <pchampin> guus: so we should open those issues, any one objecting?
15:46:40 <pchampin> issue-17?
15:46:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-17 -- How are RDF datasets to be merged? -- raised
15:46:40 <trackbot>
15:46:52 <pchampin> guus: david on the call?
15:48:07 <pchampin> pfps: we need to fix a problem with the SPARQL definition, sent some comment to the mailing list
15:49:12 <LeeF> and peter's reply at
15:49:25 <PatH> Why is this our business? Surely the notion of RDF Store belongs to SPARQL , no?
15:49:39 <pchampin> pchampin: +1 PatH
15:50:08 <pfps> SPARQL has a definition of the merge of RDF datasets.   This is closely related to named graphs, which we are supposed to be dealing with.
15:50:26 <PatH> The notion of 'default' for example isnt in the RDF specs anywhere.
15:50:29 <Zakim> - +43.512.507.aabb
15:50:45 <AndyS1> I see comment, but no proposal for change.  The editor will address the comment.
15:51:33 <pfps> I was trying to not prejudice any solution (by not providing my own).  I pointed out that the "defintion" allows multiple answers.
15:51:35 <PatH> On the face of it, the definition in the emails does not make sense, since it presumes that one name can name two different graphs.
15:52:10 <cygri> PatH: that's why i'd like to treat them as merely (URI, g-snap) pairs
15:52:10 <PatH> Which if it happens should be an error condition, seems to me.
15:52:23 <PatH> OK
15:52:45 <pchampin> open issue-17
15:52:53 <AndyS1> graphs are closed descriptions?  
15:52:55 <pchampin> issue-18?
15:52:55 <trackbot> ISSUE-18 -- How do we parse "18." in Turtle? -- raised
15:52:55 <trackbot>
15:53:17 <ww> q+
15:53:32 <ww> zakim, unmute me
15:53:32 <Zakim> ww should no longer be muted
15:54:01 <cygri> sandro, would you like to mention bnode skolemization here?�
15:54:03 <AlexHall> PatH, perhaps the same graph is named in both those datasets with competing assertions as to the contents of that graph?
15:54:36 <AZ> issue 21
15:54:43 <cygri> ISSUE-21?
15:54:43 <trackbot> ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- raised
15:54:43 <trackbot>
15:55:26 <Souri> q+
15:55:33 <cygri> i think i'm +1 with ww
15:55:38 <PatH> +1 sandro
15:55:40 <gavin> +q
15:55:43 <gavin> -q
15:55:47 <ww> zakim, mute me
15:55:47 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
15:55:51 <Guus> ack sandro
15:55:51 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about explicit metadata on gboxes & time
15:55:51 <pchampin> ww: what happens if we take two files containing triples, and merge them in a format supporting quads?
15:56:00 <pchampin> sandro: Since you have to do bnode renaming in merging turtle, why not for quads?
15:56:00 <AndyS1> merge is on g-snaps, not g-texts?
15:56:02 <Guus> ack ww
15:56:11 <ww> zakim, mute me
15:56:11 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
15:56:13 <Guus> ack Souri
15:56:15 <pchampin> sandro: you should not be able to simply merge 2 ttl files. You should rename bnodes before.
15:56:41 <pchampin> souri: the notion of having the same bnode in two different graphs seems odd to me
15:56:55 <AndyS1> q+
15:56:55 <pchampin> sandro: I think bnodes are scoped to the document, not to the graph
15:56:59 <PatH> Blank node *identifiers* are scoped according to conventions defined by the particular format.
15:57:11 <pchampin> ... which is convenient for the moment as our documents contain only one graph
15:57:16 <PatH> Blank nodes should be unique to a 'grpah' (= g-box)
15:57:23 <Souri> q+
15:57:27 <pchampin> ... but if a document was to contain several graphs, it would happen.
15:57:52 <pchampin> ... Consider a subgraph of a given graph; they can obviously share bnodes.
15:58:00 <ww> blank node scope comes up in several places...
15:58:00 <LeeF> It's not clear to me if we're discussing the scope of blank nodes, the mathematical objects, or the scope of blank node identifiers, the way of writing down the things in g-texts, or both
15:58:12 <pchampin> guus: isn't that another issue?
15:58:31 <AndyS1> q-
15:58:32 <ww> +1 sandro's correction of loose language - bnode identifiers are what have scope
15:58:53 <PatH> +1 sandro.
15:59:12 <pchampin> souri: we are talking from a storing point of view
15:59:24 <AndyS1> Both - bnodes as variables have a scope but != bnode labels in a serialization
15:59:43 <pchampin> ... _:x boild down to prefixing x with the name of the graph
16:00:30 <PatH> Lee; blank nodes dont have scope. They are gloablly unique. Bnode IDs have scope.
16:00:42 <gavin> ... the blank node would -have- to be unique to a graph. Two graphs may exist on diffrent systems on the web, if you want their identity to be the same same USE A URI. 
16:00:59 <AndyS1> +1 to PatH's description
16:01:22 <pchampin> sandro: some SPARQL endpoints, like 4store, have the default graph to be the union of all other stores
16:01:27 <PatH> I will try to add some text to clarify all this.
16:01:36 <Guus> propose to add Pat's description to Issue 21 description
16:01:53 <Guus> thx Pat
16:01:56 <Souri> q+
16:02:05 <SteveH> q+
16:02:17 <pchampin> ... so how do we serialize this?
16:02:17 <Guus> ack Souri
16:02:27 <PatH> Souri, sandro, please CC me on any offline emails.
16:02:45 <SteveH> q-
16:03:05 <Guus> pls no offline emails
16:03:17 <Guus> q?
16:03:22 <pchampin> souri: we have to distinguish between _:x used in two different files
16:03:40 <pchampin> ... bnodes are scoped to the graph
16:04:15 <pfps> It is possible for two RDF graphs to contain the "same" bnode, but the RDF semantics doesn't let you see any effects of this.
16:04:16 <pchampin> action PatH to write an description of action-21
16:04:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Write an description of action-21 [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-04-13].
16:04:41 <pchampin> issue-22?
16:04:41 <trackbot> ISSUE-22 -- Does multigraph syntax need to support empty graphs? -- raised
16:04:41 <trackbot>
16:05:22 <pchampin> LeeF: a quad store can be naively seens as a big table with 4 columns
16:05:43 <Guus> q?
16:05:44 <pchampin> ... but this naive view does not allow to represent an empty graph
16:06:09 <pchampin> ... so should serialization support that? Some serialization can (e.g. Trig)
16:06:14 <gavin> +q
16:06:16 <PatH> Nah, its NIL is LISP. Yes, lets allow this.
16:06:32 <PatH> +q
16:06:55 <AndyS1> When "named X" considered, becomes more relevant
16:07:12 <pchampin> pfps: are we going to allow necessarily empty g-*?
16:07:15 <PatH> BTW, in the RDF semantics, the empty graph is (a) unique and (b) always false.
16:07:15 <sandro> q+ to answer peter
16:07:33 <cygri> guus, I just created ISSUE-23 to capture discussion i had with dave on the mailing list
16:07:41 <Guus> ack gavin
16:07:48 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:08:10 <pfps> suppose you have a set of quads - how to you know that you have all the triples in a particular graph?
16:08:10 <pchampin> gavin: most document databases (e.g. mongodb) explicitly do not allow empty documents
16:08:24 <pchampin> ... an XML doc has to contain at least an element
16:08:27 <Guus> ack PatH
16:08:37 <LeeF> i'm not sure that's the same issue? i'll never know that, whether i'm writing down 0 triples or 100 triples
16:08:41 <LeeF> right?
16:08:42 <pfps> to follow this on ... all the possible empty named graphs already exist in RDF
16:09:04 <pchampin> PatH: I was going to vote for empty graph, mathematically more elegant
16:09:11 <ww> intuitively +1 to PatH
16:09:12 <pchampin> ... they are useful limit cases
16:09:22 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise?
16:09:24 <pchampin> pchampin: +1
16:09:27 <LeeF> FWIW, I was trying to lay out the issue as I understand it neutrally, I do have a strong opinion on how the issue should be resolved :)
16:09:33 <Zakim> mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (5%), Luca (66%)
16:09:40 <PatH> I think the morse code is agreeing with us.
16:09:43 <pchampin> sandro: most (all?) RDF syntax allow to convey the empty graph
16:09:53 <pchampin> ... forbidding that would be a problem
16:09:59 <Zakim> -ww
16:10:19 <pchampin> guus: position for the moment: allow empty graph unless there is a very good reason not too
16:10:25 <sandro> zakim, mute luca
16:10:25 <Zakim> Luca should now be muted
16:10:28 <Souri> the flip side is that managing graphs as first class entity creates additional complexity (like tables in an RDBMS)
16:10:32 <pchampin> ... but let's keep the issue open for the moment
16:10:38 <cygri> ISSUE-23?
16:10:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-23 -- Does going from single-graph to multi-graph require new format and new media types? -- raised
16:10:38 <trackbot>
16:11:36 <LeeF> Souri, SPARQL Update acknowledged that by trying to allow both sorts of stores likely behavior
16:11:57 <cygri> LeeF, and I think that makes the SPARQL Update spec quite awkward
16:12:10 <pchampin> sandro: I will open issue-23
16:12:12 <LeeF> cygri, I don't necessarily disagree with that
16:12:25 <pchampin> topic: cleanup issues
16:12:37 <pchampin> guus: we have a face at the F2F to discuss them
16:12:37 <cygri> LeeF, as a matter of principle, I think “let's allow both” is rarely the right answer in a spec
16:12:50 <LeeF> cygri, I also don't disagree with that
16:12:54 <cygri> :-)
16:13:13 <pchampin> ... we need to make some progress on the issue about the "RDF Recommendation Set"
16:13:24 <Guus> q?
16:13:34 <pchampin> ... and start thinking about editors for those documents
16:13:37 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Agenda: q-
16:14:05 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:14:07 <zwu2> bye
16:14:10 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:14:10 <cygri> thank you! bye!
16:14:13 <Zakim> -cygri
16:14:14 <Zakim> -PatH
16:14:14 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:14:16 <Zakim> -Souri_
16:14:17 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
16:14:18 <Zakim> -[Garlik]
16:14:19 <Zakim> -AZ
16:14:20 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:14:22 <pchampin> RRSagent, draft minutes
16:14:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate pchampin
16:14:24 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:14:28 <Zakim> -gavinc
16:14:32 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:14:35 <mbrunati> ok, bye
16:14:37 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
16:14:40 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:14:43 <Zakim> -mbrunati
16:14:49 <Zakim> -AndyS1
16:14:50 <Zakim> - +31.20.598.aaaa
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16:15:29 <Zakim> -hsbauer
16:15:47 <gavin> gavin has left #rdf-wg
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16:17:30 <sandro> I'm on irc, but not th ephone.
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