Difference between revisions of "Chatlog 2011-03-30"

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15:50:55 <AxelPolleres>   
 
15:50:55 <AxelPolleres>   
 
15:51:10 <sandro> eric: repeating AndyS: I'd like a standard around N-Triples, it is out there, it is used, lets put it on a standards basis.
 
15:51:10 <sandro> eric: repeating AndyS: I'd like a standard around N-Triples, it is out there, it is used, lets put it on a standards basis.
15:51:11 <ericP> turtle: <http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/암스테르담> a <Foo> .
+
15:51:11 <ericP> turtle: <http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/암스테르담> a <Foo> .
15:51:12 <ericP> ntriple: <http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%95%94%EC%8A%A4%ED%85%8C%EB%A5%B4%EB%8B%B4> a <Foo> .
+
15:51:12 <ericP> ntriple: <http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%95%94%EC%8A%A4%ED%85%8C%EB%A5%B4%EB%8B%B4> a <Foo> .
 
15:51:28 <webr3> +1 to and a mime type
 
15:51:28 <webr3> +1 to and a mime type
 
15:51:28 <ericP> q+ to discuss differences between turtle and ntriples
 
15:51:28 <ericP> q+ to discuss differences between turtle and ntriples
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15:52:29 <sandro> AndyS: Yes.
 
15:52:29 <sandro> AndyS: Yes.
 
15:52:59 <sandro> AndyS: Could call it N-Turtle, if we want to distinguish it from N-Triples.
 
15:52:59 <sandro> AndyS: Could call it N-Turtle, if we want to distinguish it from N-Triples.
15:53:04 <gavinc> +q ... and N-Quads? ;)
 
15:53:18 <gavinc> -q ...
 
15:53:25 <gavinc> -q N-Quads?
 
15:53:28 <gavinc> -q ;)
 
 
15:53:35 <gavinc> +q to talk about N-Quads
 
15:53:35 <gavinc> +q to talk about N-Quads
 
15:53:38 <sandro> ericP: Difference is in IRIs.      In N-triples, we we have to do percent-decoding.
 
15:53:38 <sandro> ericP: Difference is in IRIs.      In N-triples, we we have to do percent-decoding.
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16:15:09 <AZ> bye
 
16:15:09 <AZ> bye
 
16:15:14 <Zakim> -SteveH__
 
16:15:14 <Zakim> -SteveH__
16:15:16 <hsbauer> gavin please add my name to the attendance list as Scott Bauer
 
16:15:17 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
 
16:15:33 <gavinc> Will do
 
 
16:15:56 <Zakim> -AZ
 
16:15:56 <Zakim> -AZ
 
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Revision as of 15:27, 1 April 2011

See panel, original RRSAgent log or preview nicely formatted version.

Please justify/explain non-obvious edits to this page, in your "edit summary" text.

14:51:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:51:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-rdf-wg-irc
14:51:23 <gavinc> rrsagent, make records public
14:51:44 <gavinc> Scribe: gavinc
14:53:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:53:44 <hsbauer> hsbauer has joined #rdf-wg
14:53:54 <gavinc> zakim, this is rdfwg
14:53:54 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
14:54:46 <gavinc> 73394
14:55:27 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg
14:55:56 <Zakim> +??P19
14:56:02 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
14:56:04 <Zakim> +Tony
14:56:07 <yvesr> Zakim, +??P19 is yvesr 
14:56:07 <Zakim> sorry, yvesr, I do not recognize a party named '+??P19'
14:56:13 <yvesr> Zakim, P19 is yvesr 
14:56:13 <Zakim> sorry, yvesr, I do not recognize a party named 'P19'
14:56:32 <Zakim> +??P21
14:56:36 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P19 is yvesr 
14:56:36 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
14:56:39 <SteveH__> Zakim, ??P21 is me
14:56:39 <Zakim> +SteveH__; got it
14:57:01 <gavinc> zakim, who is here
14:57:01 <Zakim> gavinc, you need to end that query with '?'
14:57:03 <gavinc> zakim, who is here?
14:57:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.707.861.aaaa, yvesr, Tony, SteveH__
14:57:14 <gavinc> zakim, +1.707 is me
14:57:14 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
14:57:17 <Zakim> +David
14:57:19 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me
14:57:19 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted
14:57:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:58:17 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
14:58:17 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
14:58:21 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:10 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:17 <Zakim> + +20598aabb
14:59:18 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
14:59:34 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
14:59:38 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
14:59:40 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:50 <ericP> ericP has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:54 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:58 <Zakim> +zwu2
15:00:03 <Zakim> +EricP
15:00:11 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:00:11 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:00:13 <AndyS> zakim, what is the conference code?
15:00:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), AndyS
15:00:26 <AndyS> zakim, thank you
15:00:26 <Zakim> you are very welcome, AndyS
15:00:41 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:47 <davidwood> Chair: Guus Schreiber
15:00:51 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:54 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:01:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:01:05 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:14 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
15:01:14 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:01:20 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aacc
15:01:24 <davidwood> zakim, who is here?
15:01:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, yvesr (muted), Tony, SteveH__, David, mbrunati, +20598aabb, AxelPolleres, OlivierCorby, Peter_Patel-Schneider, zwu2 (muted), EricP, Sandro, AndyS,
15:01:31 <Zakim> ... +1.443.212.aacc
15:01:45 <gavinc> zakim, mute me
15:01:45 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
15:01:49 <AlexHall> zakim, +1.443.212.aacc is me
15:01:49 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:02:06 <gavinc> zakim, unmute me
15:02:06 <Zakim> gavinc should no longer be muted
15:02:20 <hsbauer> zakim, who is on the call?
15:02:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, yvesr (muted), Tony, SteveH__, David, mbrunati, +20598aabb, AxelPolleres, OlivierCorby, Peter_Patel-Schneider, zwu2 (muted), EricP, Sandro, AndyS,
15:02:24 <Zakim> ... AlexHall
15:02:40 <gavinc> Topic: Admin
15:03:11 <Zakim> +Ronald
15:03:17 <sandro> zakim, who is making noise?
15:03:28 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +20598aabb (22%)
15:03:31 <AZ> Zakim, I think Ronald is me
15:03:31 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I think Ronald is me', AZ
15:03:42 <AZ> Zakim, Ronald is me
15:03:42 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:03:47 <sandro> zakim, who is making noise?
15:03:58 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:04:02 <sandro> zakim, who is making noise?
15:04:07 <zwu2> subway?
15:04:12 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +20598aabb (28%)
15:04:14 <Zakim> +??P5
15:04:17 <Zakim> +??P8
15:04:18 <sandro> zakim, mute aabb
15:04:18 <Zakim> +20598aabb should now be muted
15:04:25 <zwu2> :)
15:04:27 <AZ> zakim, mute me
15:04:27 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
15:04:27 <sandro> zakim, unmute aabb
15:04:29 <Zakim> +20598aabb should no longer be muted
15:04:40 <sandro> AZ, you were making the noise.
15:04:46 <webr3> Zakim, i am ??P8
15:04:46 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
15:04:53 <Zakim> +Souri_
15:05:11 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:28 <gavinc> Guus: Proposing accepting minutes, no objections, accepted.
15:05:35 <hsbauer> Sorry looks like i was not marked present.
15:05:41 <pfps> Minutes OK, but we should figure out who Tony is.
15:06:16 <hsbauer> My name didn't make the list
15:06:28 <gavinc> zakim, who is here
15:06:28 <Zakim> gavinc, you need to end that query with '?'
15:06:30 <gavinc> zakim, who is here?
15:06:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, yvesr (muted), Tony, SteveH__, David, mbrunati, +20598aabb, AxelPolleres, OlivierCorby, Peter_Patel-Schneider, zwu2 (muted), EricP, Sandro, AndyS,
15:06:36 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, AZ (muted), ??P5, webr3, Souri_
15:07:02 <gavinc> Subtopic: Actions
15:07:15 <webr3> thomas sent regrets too
15:07:28 <gavinc> Guus: Most people with actions are not here.
15:07:57 <gavinc> Guus: Richard did Nathans action, group JOSN use cases on wiki
15:08:00 <sandro> close action-22
15:08:01 <trackbot> ACTION-22 Group json use cases on wiki closed
15:08:13 <Zakim> + +1.850.377.aadd
15:08:25 <gavinc> Subtopic: F2F1
15:08:40 <Souri> regrets for F2F
15:08:44 <gavinc> Guus: Has everyone confirmed attendance?
15:09:05 <cmatheus> Zakim, i am ??P5
15:09:05 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it
15:09:12 <gavinc> Guus: Some people still haven't RSVP'd
15:09:21 <pathayes> pathayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:26 <gavinc> Guus: Remote will be hard with timezones.
15:09:34 <Souri> well, I'll remotely attend the audio portion, if we have a tel#
15:09:44 <gavinc> Topic: Turtle Task Force
15:10:00 <Souri> q+
15:10:01 <pathayes> apologies for 10 mins late.
15:10:20 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/3
15:10:26 <gavinc> Guus: Only two open issues, likely need more
15:10:44 <gavinc> Guus: ??? had a thread on Turtle issues.
15:10:57 <sandro> s/???/Peter and Eric/
15:11:25 <gavinc> Eric: We need a mapping from Turtle to Triples
15:11:57 <gavinc> Sandro: Are we going to produce such a mapping?
15:12:02 <sandro> s/Eric/Peter/
15:12:02 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#sec-parsing Editor's Draft to which pfps referred
15:12:17 <ericP> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2008Jan/0128
15:12:35 <sandro> s/Are we/Maybe the ISSUE is: Are we/
15:13:17 <gavinc> Eric: Recursive or linear definition? How does concatenation work?
15:13:24 <Souri> q-
15:14:49 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Mar/0693.html
15:15:05 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.30
15:15:09 <gavinc> Guus: Can see a perpose for both of them
15:15:11 <gavinc> Guus: Can see a purpose for both of them. Might mean adding an appendix or section to current document.
15:15:12 <gavinc> Eric: Was going to code up both, but sprained wrist
15:15:14 <gavinc> Guus: Is that do able?
15:15:15 <gavinc> Peter: I am only interested in having a good spec. I have my own ideas on what is best, but think having more then one way is worse.
15:15:17 <pfps> I don't want to have two ways to turn Turtle to triples.
15:15:35 <gavinc> Eric: It is somewhat distracting to have two
15:15:40 <gavinc> Peter: Agree.
15:16:09 <gavinc> Guus: Is there a way to work this out?
15:16:15 <sandro> q?
15:16:28 <gavinc> Eric: I don't think either of us think the other is wrong.
15:16:33 <gavinc> Peter: Just misguided
15:17:02 <gavinc> Pat: Are we sure they are different?
15:17:39 <gavinc> ???: Sounds like we have agreement, accept for agreement
15:17:45 <sandro> s/???/Pat/
15:18:00 <webr3> general note: pfps' approach is perhaps more similar to other well used specs (html and webapps ones) and thus may be more familiar to readers
15:19:49 <gavinc> Peter: A good spec doesn't have different interpretations. A recipe often does.
15:20:25 <gavinc> Eric: My main objection is to the recursive method vs the linner method
15:20:42 <sandro> andy: A good set of test cases will help
15:20:49 <gavinc> +1
15:20:59 <webr3> s/linner/linear
15:21:22 <gavinc> AndyS: What happens around BNodes, what happens around escaping
15:21:24 <sandro> andy: layering -- escaping, identifying terminals, etc
15:22:22 <ericP> q+
15:22:34 <ericP> q-
15:22:40 <gavinc> AndyS: Deifine how each part is converted into each bit of a triple so that it can be reused (??)
15:23:44 <gavinc> EricP: Using this grammer in TriG. Notion of reusing the grammer was part of the reason for giving it a linear parsing model. So that it could be reused in cases where there is a document after. Stole what I could from SPARQL
15:24:04 <gavinc> EricP: Reuse of shared understanding from one spec or another
15:24:24 <gavinc> +q
15:24:40 <sandro> andy: Yes, sharing between SPARQL and Turtle spec is good.
15:24:45 <webr3> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2008Jan/0128 this one
15:25:01 <yvesr> +1
15:25:08 <gavinc> Sandro: Reusing and sharing grammer?
15:25:12 <ericP> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2008Jan/0128 pfps's mapping from Turtle grammar to an RDF graph
15:25:15 <gavinc> Peter: There is no grammer in mine.
15:25:29 <gavinc> Peter: It takes the AST, and turns the AST into triples
15:25:50 <gavinc> Peter: Takes AST, silent to sequences, silent to Turtle doc
15:26:30 <gavinc> Sandro: Add Peters spec to Turtle document?
15:26:37 <gavinc> s/Sandro/Guus
15:26:51 <gavinc> Peter: Silly to have a recipe and then a spec
15:26:59 <gavinc> Eric: Both are recipes
15:27:12 <gavinc> Peter: Silly have a ??? followed by a ???
15:27:46 <pfps> s/???/procedural spec/  s/???/non-procedural spec/
15:27:48 <sandro> eric: Who has looked at both of these?
15:28:06 <sandro> gavin: I did.
15:28:12 <sandro> andy: As did I
15:28:24 <sandro> gavin: I got stuck on how whitespace is to be handled in Turtle.
15:28:39 <sandro> gavin: Got it mostly working, but I have no idea if this is correct.
15:28:52 <webr3> 10.
15:28:57 <gavinc> sandro, thank you
15:29:02 <Guus> q?
15:29:06 <gavinc> -q
15:29:27 <AndyS> My parser does tokenization then parsing -- and it's streaming so working on a unit of same-subject makes sense.
15:29:27 <sandro> ISSUE: How do we parse "18." in Turtle?
15:29:28 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-18 - How do we parse "18." in Turtle? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/18/edit .
15:29:50 <yvesr> ah - i thougt i raised that one but must have forgot
15:30:16 <yvesr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0131.html
15:30:38 <gavinc> Guus: Peter do you mind being on Turtle TF?
15:30:47 <gavinc> Peter: I like Graphs more then Turtle ;)
15:31:28 <yvesr> i can edit the issue
15:31:40 <gavinc> Guus: Two other issues with Turtle
15:31:47 <yvesr> (ISSUE-18)
15:32:20 <gavinc> Eric: I think all the terminals have an s at the end of them are supposed to be defined in the sparql spec. 
15:32:35 <gavinc> Eric: Lexical tokens are all the same as SPARQL
15:32:41 <sandro> eric: re ISSUE-1 I think all the terminals have a link back to the SPARQL spec, except BASE and PREFIX.    A few of the lower level productions are different, but the lack of variables makes it difference.
15:32:42 <AndyS> close but not the same e.g. [ :p 123 ] .
15:33:07 <AndyS> close but not the same e.g. [ ns:property 123 ] . (due to Ivan)
15:33:08 <SteveH> INSER DATA { } doesn't allow variables does it?
15:33:10 <sandro> ISSUE: Should TURTLE allow triples like "[ :p 123 ]." as SPARQL does ?
15:33:10 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-19 - Should TURTLE allow triples like "[ :p 123 ]." as SPARQL does ? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/19/edit .
15:33:12 <SteveH> *INSERT
15:33:44 <AndyS> Same with "(1 2 3) ."  -- uncommon
15:33:49 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#sec-grammar-grammar
15:34:16 <webr3> the diagram from n3 is quite good [related] http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/n3/venn
15:34:39 <Souri> s/INSER DATA/INSERT DATA/
15:34:57 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#sec-diff-sparql
15:35:01 <gavinc> Sandro: How are the languages related? How do I get from one to the other?
15:35:16 <sandro> sandro: I want a complete and precise listing in this spec of how it differs from SPARQL.   (base, prefix, variables, maybe terms - as - triples)
15:35:39 <AndyS> SPARQL grammar cheats - just says "don't use variables" -- not part of formal grammar (grammar explosion)
15:36:28 <sandro> sandro: just the bit of SPARQL that INSERT { ... }
15:37:06 <sandro> sandro: it's smaller than BGP, it's just the INSERT part, not the WHERE part.
15:37:32 <AndyS> INSERT DATA can include GRAPH :-)
15:39:11 <SteveH> AndyS, true
15:39:28 <AlexHall> CONSTRUCT template then?
15:39:29 <sandro> sandro: why don't 6-16 have links to SPARQL?
15:39:40 <sandro> eric: they are very similar, but different eg in allowing variables.
15:39:57 <gavinc> Eric: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#sec-grammer 4.4, numbers with s at the end are the same as SPARQL. 6-16 don't match as Turtle doesn't have variables
15:41:12 <sandro> peter: The SPARQL spec does the standard cheat of saying "you need whitespace where you need whitespace".      ... a b 18. a b ...  
15:41:33 <sandro> eric: greedy lexer consumes the dot, simpler solution.
15:41:34 <zwu2> agree
15:41:38 <yvesr> sandro: the turtle spec does the same...
15:41:50 <sandro> s/:/,/
15:41:50 <yvesr> "White space (production ws) is used to separate two tokens which would otherwise be (mis-)recognized as one token"
15:42:05 <sandro> yes
15:42:09 <sandro> I hate that.
15:42:10 <AndyS> q+
15:42:35 <sandro> gavin: i have an issue on that.  I can parse everything, unless it's a double.     I can't figure out how to parse what you just said.
15:43:08 <sandro> gavin: parser had to comment  out the bit with numbers with dots in them.
15:43:15 <AndyS> double has an 'e'
15:43:22 <sandro> peter: typically, you do a greedy lexer, doing doubles and decimals.
15:43:40 <sandro> peter: just about every programming language has this.
15:44:19 <gavinc> https://github.com/norcalrdf/pymantic/blob/master/pymantic/parsers.py
15:44:20 <sandro> AndyS: re LALR(1) parser.    I think we want to go for LL(1), actually, so it can be done via Recursive Descent.   Still need the right tokenizer.
15:44:47 <sandro> ericP: I haven't noticed the difference manifesting for this.
15:45:24 <sandro> q+
15:45:28 <AndyS> q-
15:46:00 <AndyS> q+
15:46:10 <gavinc> Sandro: Speaking as user. Not a grammar geek. Don't want to have to put a space before the period. I don't care if makes the parser harder.
15:46:53 <sandro> peter: you only need to space after a number.
15:47:01 <sandro> sandro: so code puts a space there
15:47:16 <gavinc> AndyS: SPARQL allows for 18. to represent a number, the charter would not allow us to change that
15:47:24 <sandro> andy: SPARQL 1.0 for better or worse requires the space after a number, and SPARQL 1.1 by its charter can't change that.
15:47:36 <sandro> andy: I'm not saying it's a good decision, but that's where we are.
15:47:56 <gavinc> andy: Prefix names do not end in a .
15:47:59 <sandro> AndyS: Prefix names in SPARQL do not end with a .
15:48:01 <AndyS> ack AndyS
15:48:11 <sandro> ack sandro 
15:48:21 <gavinc> Subtopic: Turtle and Triples
15:48:57 <SteveH> q+
15:48:59 <gavinc> Guus: Deprecate N-Triples and just use Turtle? N-Triples developed for test cases.
15:49:21 <ericP> +1 to deprecating ntriples
15:49:31 <sandro> peter: Yes, get rid of N-Triples!
15:49:51 <zwu2> q+
15:49:58 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
15:49:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
15:50:18 <gavinc> AndyS: Easier to put N-Triples into Turtle, used as a dump format and import format
15:50:22 <gavinc> +1
15:50:25 <SteveH> +1
15:50:55 <AxelPolleres>  
15:51:10 <sandro> eric: repeating AndyS: I'd like a standard around N-Triples, it is out there, it is used, lets put it on a standards basis.
15:51:11 <ericP>  turtle: <http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/암스테르담> a <Foo> .
15:51:12 <ericP>  ntriple: <http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%95%94%EC%8A%A4%ED%85%8C%EB%A5%B4%EB%8B%B4> a <Foo> .
15:51:28 <webr3> +1 to and a mime type
15:51:28 <ericP> q+ to discuss differences between turtle and ntriples
15:51:35 <pfps> what is required to turn an n-triples doc into a Turtle doc?
15:51:38 <sandro> sandro: Can it be done as a small section of the Turtle grammar, specifuing the restrictions?
15:51:44 <sandro> AndyS: Yes, and the mime type.
15:52:05 <webr3> pfps, nothing iirc
15:52:26 <sandro> sandro: would N-Triples be a sublanguage of Turtle?
15:52:29 <sandro> AndyS: Yes.
15:52:59 <sandro> AndyS: Could call it N-Turtle, if we want to distinguish it from N-Triples.
15:53:35 <gavinc> +q to talk about N-Quads
15:53:38 <sandro> ericP: Difference is in IRIs.      In N-triples, we we have to do percent-decoding.
15:53:52 <Guus> [sorry, wasn't looking at the q]
15:54:04 <webr3> ericP, we need it to be UTF-8 and a subset of turtle
15:54:13 <sandro> AndyS: I would make N-Turtle, and have it be utf-8.
15:54:44 <sandro> AndyS: I do come across utf-8 N-triples, and also ascii, with percent-encoding.
15:54:44 <webr3> +1 likewise, many didn't know it couldn't be ascii in a recent thread on semantic-web
15:54:56 <sandro> Eric: Some of it is broken, and which way do we want to unbreak it.
15:55:03 <sandro> +1 use IRIs
15:55:04 <AndyS> N-Turtle is preferrable UTF-8
15:55:04 <ericP> q-
15:55:04 <webr3> s/ascii/utf8
15:55:05 <ww> +1 and likewise for nquads
15:55:10 <sandro> Guus: +1 use IRIs
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15:55:27 <sandro> steve:+1 Andy
15:55:37 <gavinc> SteveH: I agree with Andy. We should make N-Triples a subset of Turtle, give it a mimetype and make it UTF-8
15:55:39 <Zakim> -yvesr
15:56:03 <AndyS> Need a different name (RDF-data?) and explain that it's N-Triples made into a standard.
15:56:10 <gavinc> Yvesr: Oracle position, it's really easy to parse
15:56:17 <sandro> zwu2: Oracle uses N-Triples heavily.  We don't want it deprecated.   Yes, it's long but it's REALLY EASY TO PARSE.    Folks zip it up.    So backward compatibility is important to us.
15:56:23 <gavinc> Ah, wrong name
15:56:50 <gavinc> zwu2: Existing N-Triples should be valid as well.
15:56:54 <sandro> guus: Oracle okay with using IRIs?
15:57:05 <sandro> zwu2: Yes, I think
15:57:08 <Zakim> +??P11
15:57:13 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P11 is yvesr 
15:57:13 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:57:26 <sandro> ericP: This change would affect the meaning of any NTriples documents with "%" in them.
15:57:42 <SteveH> q+ to disagree with ericP 
15:57:44 <Souri> +1 to raising an issue
15:57:48 <ww> +q to ask rhetorcally if N-Turtle would be harder to parse than N-Triples, pace backwards compatibility
15:57:50 <zwu2> ack zwu2
15:57:54 <ww> -q
15:57:57 <zwu2> q-
15:58:28 <Guus> q?
15:58:28 <sandro> ACTION: AndyS to make concrete "N-Turtle" proposal
15:58:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Make concrete "N-Turtle" proposal [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-04-06].
15:58:42 <ericP> text/ntriples+turtle would be consistent with RFC3023 §7 ¶1
15:58:43 <SteveH> ericP, I'm not sure http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#ntriples says you should decode %s
15:58:44 <SteveH> q-
15:59:09 <AndyS> +1 to Steve.
15:59:11 <sandro> SteveH: I'm not sure N-Triples doc says you need to unpack %-encoding
15:59:16 <gavinc> SteveH: N-Triples doesn't say you have to un % encode things
15:59:18 <sandro> Eric: Oh, that would be excellent
15:59:24 <Guus> ack gavinc
15:59:24 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to talk about N-Quads
15:59:35 <ww> Q-Turtle
15:59:43 <AndyS> NT has it's own esacaping via \u
15:59:49 <SteveH> yah
15:59:49 <sandro> q?
16:00:50 <sandro> sandro: basic non-answer is that N-Quads is part of the [GRAPHS] task force, and it hasn't made enough progress yet to know.
16:01:12 <gavinc> Guus: I think that's all the issues. Unless we missed something?
16:01:26 <AndyS> raise issue against product turtle so we come back to it when [graph] done with it
16:01:42 <gavinc> Sandro: Issue-19, diffrence between SPARQL and Turtle. In N3 and SPARQL you can do a BNode production... you can make a statement by just having it []
16:01:53 <AndyS> e.g. [ ns:foo 132 ; ns:bar ] .
16:02:37 <gavinc> AndyS: Yes, it should be part of Turtle.
16:02:45 <sandro> Pat: me too.
16:02:50 <gavinc> Pat: Yes, it should be in Turtle.
16:02:51 <ericP> sounds good to me
16:02:55 <gavinc> +1
16:02:57 <webr3> +1
16:03:09 <SteveH> raptor parses it too, fwiw
16:03:15 <AndyS> Be careful that "[] ." does no parse
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16:03:32 <AndyS> Be careful that "[] ." does not parse
16:03:40 <pfps> I'll speak up here.
16:03:49 <SteveH> [ <foo> 132 ; <bar> 23 ] . = two triples in raptor
16:04:11 <gavinc> Gavin: I think most parsers work this way already
16:04:17 <gavinc> Sandro: Maybe gather more data?
16:04:20 <Zakim> -EricP
16:04:25 <AndyS> Jena RIOT accepts it (as 2 triples)
16:04:46 <sandro> excellent,   if Jena and Raptor and rdflib are happy with it, I'm happy with it.  :-)
16:04:48 <webr3> my parsers do too, two triples.
16:04:56 <hsbauer> Gavin please add my name to attendees
16:04:58 <gavinc> Guus: I hope we can make some progress on this at the F2F
16:05:02 <pathayes> the parsers speak...
16:05:22 <gavinc> Topic: General Issues
16:05:36 <gavinc> Sandro: Should we talk more about the F2F?
16:05:57 <gavinc> Guus: We won't get to these general issues today.
16:06:32 <gavinc> Guus: Are there any women in this WG? 
16:06:34 <gavinc> Gavin: No.
16:06:42 <Zakim> -cmatheus
16:07:11 <AndyS> ACTION: Andy to write collect issues and write a proposal standardizing N-Triples.
16:07:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-24 - Write collect issues and write a proposal standardizing N-Triples. [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-04-06].
16:07:25 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has left #rdf-wg
16:07:53 <mbrunati> me on JSON TF, I'll try to do my best .) for the F2F
16:08:14 <Zakim> -webr3
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16:09:06 <gavinc> Sandro: Job of the presentor is to make sure the people at the F2F have a good idea of what's going on
16:09:29 <pathayes> you dont have to use powerpoint....
16:09:57 <gavinc> SteveH: Yeah, I'll do the Turtle TF presentation at the F2F
16:10:42 <gavinc> Guus: Richard in the best position to give this overview
16:11:04 <gavinc> s/this/Graph
16:11:52 <gavinc> Guus: JSON, hard to summarize
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16:12:05 <Zakim> -yvesr
16:12:08 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rdf-wg
16:13:02 <gavinc> Sandro: I'll ask Thomas to present JSON TF at the F2F
16:13:14 <gavinc> Guus: Good to do a summary of the Other Things.
16:13:46 <gavinc> Sandro: Willing to present deprecation issues
16:13:59 <gavinc> Sandro: Make Ivan do the other ones.
16:14:32 <Guus> q?
16:14:45 <gavinc> Guus: Thank you all. See you next week.
16:14:51 <Zakim> - +1.850.377.aadd
16:14:58 <zwu2> bye
16:15:02 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:15:03 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
16:15:06 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has left #rdf-wg
16:15:07 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:15:08 <cmatheus> cmatheus has left #rdf-wg
16:15:08 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:15:09 <AZ> bye
16:15:14 <Zakim> -SteveH__
16:15:56 <Zakim> -AZ
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