Chatlog 2011-03-16

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14:52:49 <JFB> JFB has joined #rdf-wg
14:53:10 <mbrunati> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.16
14:56:16 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
14:56:22 <mbrunati> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:56:22 <Zakim> sorry, mbrunati, I don't know what conference this is
14:56:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, JFB, Zakim, RRSAgent, OlivierCorby, AxelPolleres, mbrunati, LeeF_, LeeF, hsbauer, webr3, mischat, danbri, ivan, yvesr, davidwood, NickH, manu1, manu, sandro,
14:56:26 <Zakim> ... trackbot
14:57:21 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:03 <LeeF> zakim, this will be rdfwg
14:58:03 <Zakim> ok, LeeF, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
14:58:08 <mbrunati> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:09 <mbrunati> regrets: Antoine Zimmermann, Nathan
14:58:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, ??P4, [IPcaller]
14:58:13 <LeeF> zakim, code?
14:58:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), LeeF
14:58:17 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
14:58:17 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-rdf-wg-irc#T14-58-17
14:58:19 <yvesr> Zakim: ??P4 is yvesr 
14:58:25 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P4 is yvesr 
14:58:25 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
14:58:36 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
14:58:36 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
14:58:39 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, yvesr, mbrunati
14:58:43 <Zakim> + +34.67.92.aaaa
14:58:49 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
14:58:53 <Zakim> +??P12
14:58:57 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aabb
14:59:02 <LeeF> zakim, aabb is me
14:59:02 <Zakim> + +34.92.38.aacc
14:59:02 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
14:59:03 <mbrunati> scribe: mbrunati
14:59:07 <JFB> +34.67.92.aaaa is JFB
14:59:11 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:59:16 <Zakim> +??P15
14:59:18 <manu> zakim, I am ??aabb
14:59:18 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '??aabb'
14:59:24 <AndyS> zakim, ??p15 is me
14:59:25 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
14:59:25 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:59:26 <gavin> gavin has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:28 <manu> zakim, I am aabb
14:59:30 <JFB> zakim,  +34.67.92.aaaa is JFB
14:59:31 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named 'aabb'
14:59:33 <Zakim> +JFB; got it
14:59:37 <mbrunati> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P12, LeeF, +34.92.38.aacc, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres
14:59:39 <manu> zakim, I am +1.617.553.aabb
14:59:42 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '+1.617.553.aabb'
14:59:44 <Zakim> +Tony
14:59:50 <OlivierCorby> zakim, aacc is me
14:59:50 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby; got it
14:59:52 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:54 <Zakim> -??P12
15:00:30 <Zakim> +??P12
15:00:38 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aadd
15:00:39 <manu> zakim, I am ??P12
15:00:39 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:00:52 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:55 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aaee
15:00:57 <gavin> zakim, I am +1.707.861.aadd
15:00:57 <Zakim> +gavin; got it
15:01:39 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:57 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is me
15:02:10 <gavin> zakim, mute me
15:02:24 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
15:02:31 <cygri> no zakim
15:02:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:37 <cygri> oh hi zakim
15:02:39 <gavin> zakim, mute me
15:02:41 <JFB> zakim, mute me
15:02:43 <Zakim> sorry, gavin, I don't know what conference this is
15:02:44 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
15:02:47 <cygri> zakim, who is here?
15:02:47 <sandro> zakim, this is rif-wg
15:02:49 <Zakim> sorry, JFB, I don't know what conference this is
15:02:51 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is
15:02:58 <gavin> zakim, this is rdf-wg
15:02:59 <Zakim> sorry, cygri, I don't know what conference this is
15:02:59 <sandro> zakim, this is rdf-wg
15:03:03 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'rif-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:03:05 <mbrunati> thanks
15:03:06 <tomayac> tomayac has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see cygri, FabGandon, AlexHall, gavin, AndyS, pfps, JFB, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, mbrunati, LeeF_, LeeF, hsbauer, webr3, mischat, danbri, ivan, yvesr, davidwood, NickH,
15:03:09 <LeeF> sandro, it's already setup
15:03:14 <Zakim> ... manu1, manu, sandro, trackbot
15:03:14 <LeeF> it's "rdfwg"
15:03:18 <Zakim> sorry, gavin, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:03:20 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:03:21 <sandro> LeeF, it was not....
15:03:26 <sandro> zakim, this is rdfwg
15:03:30 <LeeF> yes it was :)
15:03:38 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:03:43 <sandro> Lee, then explain "--> Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169) has joined #rdf-wg"
15:03:57 <mbrunati> who is talking?
15:04:00 <sandro> Zakim, who is here?
15:04:02 <LeeF> ah well, i'd have to first explain "[11:01] * Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169) Quit (Client exited)" i guess :)
15:04:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, Peter_Patel-Schneider, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa,
15:04:08 <mbrunati> zakim, who is talking?
15:04:09 <sandro> LeeF, ahhhhhh
15:04:13 <gavin> Oh dear
15:04:19 <mbrunati> zakim goes down
15:04:28 <mbrunati> twice
15:04:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:55 <AndyS> and trackbot?
15:05:40 <gavin> trackbot does seem to be here
15:05:40 <tomayac> zakim, mute me
15:05:42 <mbrunati> zakim, who is talking?
15:05:46 <Zakim> sorry, tomayac, I don't know what conference this is
15:05:48 <Zakim> sorry, mbrunati, I don't know what conference this is
15:05:52 <gavin> zakim, this is rdfwg
15:06:00 <Zakim> ok, gavin; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:06:21 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer
15:06:21 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-rdf-wg-irc#T15-06-21
15:06:30 <gavin> zakim, mute me
15:06:41 <Zakim> gavin should now be muted
15:06:51 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:52 <NickH> Zakim, ??P42 is me
15:06:53 <davidwood> Minutes from last week: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-09
15:06:53 <mbrunati> Topic: Admin
15:06:53 <mbrunati> minutes last telecon
15:06:55 <pfps> minutes look fine to me
15:06:56 <davidwood> Propose to accept
15:07:00 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-16  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.16
15:07:01 <mbrunati> +1
15:07:03 <tomayac> +1
15:07:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin (muted), +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood,
15:07:15 <Zakim> ... [Sophia], +1.404.978.aaaa, ??P42 (muted)
15:07:17 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
15:07:37 <NickH> stupid americans ;-)
15:07:49 <davidwood> 	▪	Action item review:
15:07:49 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
15:07:51 <mbrunati> ivan: dst time and one hour before for the Europeans
15:07:53 <AlexHall> zakim, 01+1.443.212.aaee is me
15:08:03 <Zakim> sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '01+1.443.212.aaee'
15:08:15 <gavin> zakim, unmute me
15:08:18 <FabGandon> zakim, [Sophia] is me
15:08:19 <Zakim> gavin should no longer be muted
15:08:22 <pfps> ACTION-17 appears to be done
15:08:22 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 17
15:08:23 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
15:08:38 <davidwood> ACTION-17:  Gavin's response at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology
15:08:38 <trackbot> ACTION-17 Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation notes added
15:08:57 <cygri> gavin, very nice diagram!
15:09:04 <AlexHall> zakim, 212.aaee is me
15:09:04 <Zakim> sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '212.aaee'
15:09:09 <mbrunati> gavin has made the diagram on GRAPH
15:09:27 <sandro> zakim, list attendees
15:09:28 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa,
15:09:30 <Zakim> ... David_Wood, +1.404.978.aaaa, NickH, FabGandon
15:09:35 <AndyS> gavin, "me:" and ":me" are the same?
15:10:00 <mbrunati> action-6 
15:10:00 <gavin> Andy, yes... thanks. Will fix :D
15:10:19 <Zakim> -yvesr
15:10:41 <davidwood> F2F1
15:10:41 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
15:10:49 <mbrunati> action-items, one more week with an hour earlier for the Europeans
15:11:08 <Zakim> +??P4
15:11:10 <mbrunati> topic: F2FI
15:11:16 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P4 is yvesr 
15:11:16 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:11:27 <sandro> q+ to ask about hotels
15:11:48 <gavin> zakim, mute me
15:11:48 <Zakim> gavin should now be muted
15:11:55 <mbrunati> please express the intent to make presence explicit on the f2f on the wiki
15:12:33 <mbrunati> there are some action-items for the next week
15:12:58 <mbrunati> action-4 and action6 are overdue
15:13:13 <davidwood> q?
15:13:17 <davidwood> ack sandro
15:13:17 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about hotels
15:13:26 <mbrunati> more work on the GRAPH Task force
15:13:28 <NickH> sandro: yvesr and I are staying at Mercure Hotel Amsterdam Aan de Amstel
15:13:29 <yvesr> we're staying at the Mercure hotel
15:13:35 <yvesr> (near Amstel station)
15:13:51 <NickH> I believe SteveH and mischat are too
15:13:55 <mbrunati> sandro: on hotels on the f2f at the Mercure hotel
15:14:48 <mbrunati> topic: GRAPH TF, a proposal
15:14:50 <davidwood> Graph task force:  Richard's proposal: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal
15:15:27 <mbrunati> a proposal to make something concrete to work on
15:15:56 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me
15:15:56 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted
15:16:13 <mbrunati> how to address better the use cases, take the concept of RDF core, SPARQL 
15:16:24 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
15:16:50 <mbrunati> RDF dataset identify in SPARQL are basically syntactic
15:17:22 <mbrunati> they are based on something already defined
15:17:49 <mbrunati> the discussion on the ML is on two points
15:18:13 <gavin> In addition to the named graphs and default graph mentioned by Richard many SPARQL implementations support a Union graph as well.
15:18:57 <manu> q+ to discuss data-deduplication in RDF as it relates to bnodes.
15:19:08 <mbrunati> semantics and SPARQL: is it complete or not?
15:19:11 <davidwood> q?
15:19:50 <sandro> q+ 
15:19:53 <Zakim> +??P49
15:19:55 <mbrunati> what the relations between graph, bnodes, what identify graph, g-snaps or snapshot and so on
15:20:06 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:20:06 <AxelPolleres> well, SPARQL will say *something* about semantics in its Entailment Regimes document, but there will not be interdependencies between graphs in Datasets in SPARQL Entailment regimes. 
15:20:07 <Zakim> -??P49
15:20:09 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aabb
15:20:16 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), +3539149aaaa (24%), David_Wood (29%), ??P51 (20%)
15:20:29 <Zakim> +??P49
15:21:08 <AndyS> Axel, isn't entailment is only for graphs?
15:21:14 <mbrunati> another point is maybe this proposal is something that is complete or not?
15:21:14 <davidwood> ack Manu
15:21:14 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to discuss data-deduplication in RDF as it relates to bnodes.
15:21:28 <mbrunati> manu: 
15:22:06 <mbrunati> what are the proper directions on using bnodes in this context? g-snaps 
15:22:29 <gavin> +q to mention Union graph and it's usefulness
15:23:00 <mbrunati> thinking on hard drives, the core OS thinking on files on different ways, and bnodes 
15:23:14 <mbrunati> we can think on them on the same way
15:24:07 <davidwood> ack Sandro
15:24:08 <mbrunati> bnode as a file container maybe... we really need bnodes as a cross g-snaps
15:24:26 <AndyS> q+ to talk about graph/subgraph
15:24:30 <mbrunati> zakim, who is talking?
15:24:40 <Zakim> mbrunati, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (14%), David_Wood (65%)
15:24:56 <mbrunati> bnodes are probably a problem for SPARQL users
15:25:05 <sandro> davidwood: The problem I see with bnodes is when they are returned from a query and people want to follow-up.
15:25:42 <davidwood> q?
15:25:49 <gavin> Nope.
15:25:55 <davidwood> ack AndyS
15:25:55 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to talk about graph/subgraph
15:26:00 <mbrunati> andy:
15:26:25 <sandro> AndyS: sometimes you know one graph is a strict mathematical subgraph, eg a inference view of the data and the base data, then you know it's the same bnode.
15:26:26 <manu> Manu: Looking at this from a data de-duplication perspective, perhaps bnodes could be viewed as only being an implementation concern?
15:26:47 <mbrunati> richard: 
15:27:04 <sandro> +1 test cases on bnodes
15:27:12 <sandro> +1 test cases on bnode sharing
15:27:19 <yvesr> +1
15:27:19 <manu> Manu: That is, you can share the bnode data across multiple instances in a copy-on-write way... that would allow us to say that bnodes are only valid inside a particular g-snap (it would make our decision easier)
15:27:42 <davidwood> q?
15:28:11 <mbrunati> sandro:
15:28:12 <manu> Manu: So, one could expect thousands of bnodes that are exactly the same between multiple g-snaps... but that storage space could be compressed using bnode de-duplication on disk.
15:28:31 <davidwood> g-handle? :P
15:28:42 <gavin> zakim, unmute me
15:28:42 <Zakim> gavin was not muted, gavin
15:28:49 <mbrunati> people use graphs and not are talking about graphs...
15:29:08 <manu> Manu: However, there are other concerns as David and Andy mention about queries on bnodes.
15:29:14 <mbrunati> what's the relation between URIS and g-snaps
15:29:21 <AndyS> SPARQL's "named graph" is the pair without meaning of the relationship -- maybe we need a "best practices" for using that
15:29:26 <gavin> +1 sandro
15:29:28 <mbrunati> URIs as g-boxes
15:29:43 <manu> +1 to sandro's terminology
15:29:56 <FabGandon> +1 for URIs identifying g-boxes
15:30:05 <manu> Graph Box -> Graph Snapshot -> Graph Representation
15:30:17 <cygri> q+
15:30:18 <manu> Graph Resource -> Graph Snapshot -> Graph Representation ?
15:30:18 <AndyS> +1 to g-snap of a g-box (the IRI) at some point in time
15:30:24 <mbrunati> we need to determine more terminology
15:30:28 <mbrunati> gavin:
15:30:41 <gavin> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/
15:31:02 <manu> Maps nicely to Resource -> Snapshot -> Representation - perhaps we should add this to TAG/WEBARCH people?
15:31:04 <mbrunati> on the rdf update on the SPARQL WG
15:31:27 <mbrunati> what is the mapping? in turtle
15:31:44 <AndyS> New name of that doc is "SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol"
15:32:08 <mbrunati> gavin: other thing in the document, SPARQL mentions union graph
15:32:18 <davidwood> q?
15:32:22 <davidwood> ack gavin
15:32:22 <Zakim> gavin, you wanted to mention Union graph and it's usefulness
15:32:40 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:32:44 <mbrunati> what graph are coming from, what is dataset notion in this context
15:32:48 <mbrunati> richard:
15:33:18 <danbri_> danbri_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:33:20 <manu> +1 sharing blank nodes between two g-snaps matters with union graphs.
15:33:22 <mbrunati> union graph, URIs are g-boxes
15:34:13 <mbrunati> if we want to store some metadata about the graph, 
15:34:37 <mbrunati> we have to identify a sort of snapshot of that graph
15:34:42 <danbri_> [could someone ask Guus if he could let me into his office?]
15:35:08 <manu> q+ to ask Guus to let Dan into his office
15:35:11 <mbrunati> with or without some trasformation on it? 
15:35:18 <gavin> zakim, mute me
15:35:18 <Zakim> gavin should now be muted
15:35:32 <davidwood> q?
15:36:14 <manu> q-
15:36:26 <mbrunati> richard:
15:36:39 <sandro> sandro: Excellent example, fetching http://www.w3.org and putting the metadata into a dataset, you'd have to do a (reversable) syntactic transformation, eg into http://myserve.example.com/fetched=http://www.w3.org
15:36:41 <mbrunati> how to understand how to move forward on it?
15:37:17 <mbrunati> sandro has pointed out more attention on terminology
15:37:21 <cygri> propose that a g-sandro is a (URI, g-snap) pair
15:37:23 <gavin> Yeah, but SPARQL already uses it?
15:37:29 <yvesr> cygri: :)
15:37:34 <gavin> FROM NAMED
15:38:00 <mbrunati> what are graphs, definitions, better named graph definitions maybe, some confusion on defs
15:38:10 <sandro> a "name g-box pair" ?
15:38:38 <AndyS> q+
15:38:46 <mbrunati> URI, IRIs graph, we have to more focus on named graph on SPARQL
15:39:13 <mbrunati> how to get out metadata about and out of this graph?
15:39:14 <davidwood> ack AndyS
15:39:17 <mbrunati> andys:
15:39:54 <mbrunati> URI as id for the graph or maybe 
15:41:20 <mbrunati> much meaning in a word, in a graph, in a name, few weeks to make clearer it
15:41:45 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
15:41:49 <mbrunati> zakim, who is talking?
15:42:00 <Zakim> mbrunati, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Peter_Patel-Schneider (30%), Sandro (5%), David_Wood (19%)
15:43:15 <mbrunati> richard wants to make a more practical nextstep on it
15:43:24 <mbrunati> more work on the ML
15:43:28 <davidwood> q?
15:43:51 <sandro> sandro: It would be great to get the wording around "named graph" made somehow clearer in SPARQL drafts before LC, or at least before PR.
15:43:54 <mbrunati> david: now Turtle
15:44:01 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Turtle/Proposals
15:44:07 <mbrunati> nathan:
15:44:22 <sandro> s/nathan:/richard:
15:44:29 <AndyS> was Richard again (+1 for all the effort)
15:44:34 <mbrunati> thanks
15:44:40 <davidwood> Yes, +1 to Richard
15:44:53 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #rdf-wg
15:45:19 <mbrunati> name graph, more work, some proposal are out of scope
15:46:26 <mbrunati> more usable, more use cases, many different languages, special characters
15:47:14 <mbrunati> some proposals on graph TF
15:47:18 <gavin> +1 as it's also great for building parsers ;)
15:47:18 <mbrunati> david:
15:47:49 <AndyS> Can we not start with the n-triples text in RDF test cases?
15:48:15 <mbrunati> a comment on Twitter that strongly not Turtle in RDF rec
15:49:10 <mbrunati> we have to understand what is out of scope on the f2f
15:49:49 <mbrunati> it's important to make ideas freely in this WG, even if someone upset and so on
15:49:50 <manu> I don't think that we need the "!" syntax in TURTLE, either... our company has never had a need for it.
15:50:12 <gavin> At least for Turtle task force it doesn't look like very many people are going be at the F2F :(
15:50:37 <mbrunati> f2f on the JSON proposals, it's important to move on also
15:50:59 <manu> +1 to get the preliminary JSON document sorted by the end of 1st F2F
15:51:22 <mbrunati> david: what the timeline of closing out the opened issues?
15:51:53 <mbrunati> we not have an opened issue on named graph
15:52:01 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aacc
15:52:12 <sandro> issue: What is a named graph and what should we call it?
15:52:12 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-14 - What is a named graph and what should we call it? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/14/edit .
15:52:58 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:53:17 <mbrunati> david: are there other opened issues on this telecon?
15:53:25 <sandro> issue: what is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc
15:53:25 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-15 - What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/15/edit .
15:54:29 <gavin> other people have been having trouble
15:54:30 <mbrunati> david: how to understand better what kind of documents we supposed are working on?
15:54:41 <gavin> zakim, mute me
15:54:41 <Zakim> gavin should now be muted
15:54:48 <davidwood> q?
15:55:04 <mbrunati> we have to use Turtle or not? 
15:56:12 <mbrunati> maybe it is necessary to collect on wikis periodical revisions on materials discussed
15:56:23 <mbrunati> JSON TF now
15:56:33 <mbrunati> manu:
15:56:35 <manu> syntax options for JSON: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options
15:56:38 <tomayac> +1 for nathan's work!
15:56:51 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Use_Cases
15:56:58 <davidwood> Kudos to the JSON TF for the longest wiki page :)
15:57:00 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Design_Requirements
15:57:04 <mbrunati> collected some info on JSON syntax options, use cases, design requirements
15:57:10 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options
15:57:13 <mbrunati> +1 for nathan's work 
15:57:40 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options#Syntax_Structure
15:57:46 <mbrunati> the primary decision is 
15:58:07 <mbrunati> JSON based on triples or objects model
15:58:19 <mbrunati> or document approach
15:58:30 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
15:58:52 <mbrunati> to move forward we have to make some decision, but it's not clear how
15:59:11 <mbrunati> maybe we have missed out some information on these proposals
15:59:20 <LeeF> q+ to ask if we're putting the cart before the horse
15:59:29 <Zakim> + +33.4.92.38.aadd
15:59:58 <davidwood> ack LeeF
15:59:58 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to ask if we're putting the cart before the horse
16:00:19 <tomayac> q+
16:00:39 <cygri> q+
16:00:45 <mbrunati> leef: probably we need to know what problems we try to solve
16:00:45 <AndyS> +1 to LeeF
16:01:02 <manu> the object-based vs. triple-based decision hints at the problem we're trying to solve.
16:01:13 <cygri> +1 to LeeF
16:01:16 <mbrunati> +1 manu
16:01:25 <sandro> sandro: "make existing JSON map to RDF model"  -- "make RDF easy for JSON users" -- "make json serialization of RDF"
16:01:26 <yvesr> indeed - the answer will depend on whether we wanta full rdf serialisation or not
16:01:34 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#A_primary_goal_SHOULD_be_to_build_a_human-friendly_version_of_the_serialization_for_JSON_developers
16:01:49 <sandro> (actually, some of that was Lee)
16:01:52 <davidwood> ack tomayac
16:02:00 <mbrunati> tomayac:
16:02:08 <AndyS> +1 to conflates issue with implementation
16:02:13 <yvesr> +1
16:02:17 <sandro> +1 at-a-glance serializations.
16:02:22 <NickH> +1
16:02:44 <mbrunati> maybe we not need a complete serialization on json
16:03:11 <mbrunati> zakim, who is talking?
16:03:21 <Zakim> mbrunati, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (19%), David_Wood (24%), +1.404.978.aaaa (19%)
16:03:23 <davidwood> q?
16:04:04 <mbrunati> not now
16:04:15 <mbrunati> thanks
16:04:19 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:04:58 <sandro> ACTION tomayac to create and start to populate a wiki area of demo graphs with how they each look in each json proposal.
16:04:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-20 - Create and start to populate a wiki area of demo graphs with how they each look in each json proposal. [on Thomas Steiner - due 2011-03-23].
16:05:08 <mbrunati> cygri: more documentation on use cases and so on...
16:05:19 <mbrunati> triple vs object approach
16:05:56 <mbrunati> the problem maybe is on the head of us, how to manage a triplestore from a javascript context
16:06:08 <yvesr> although SPARQL results in JSON is probably not in our scope
16:06:28 <sandro> cygri: some people find it important to, eg, access a triplestore without a (turtle) library.     or, "i have an RDF graph and want to write it in json".   or manu's thing I don't quite understand.   
16:06:54 <manu> q+ to respond to Richard.
16:06:57 <sandro> cygri: is the motivation to add bits of annotaiton to existing json, so they can be parsed as RDF?
16:07:15 <sandro> cygri: or do you not need migration/annotation
16:07:15 <mbrunati> manage the existing json stuff or to generate RDF to JSON syntax 
16:07:19 <davidwood> ack manu
16:07:19 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to respond to Richard.
16:07:22 <mbrunati> or something else?
16:07:26 <mbrunati> manu:
16:07:56 <cygri> q+
16:08:09 <sandro> manu: (1) annotation pre-existing json, and (2) take data people are emitting today (eg twitter) and understand that as RDF, by adding a "default context"
16:08:49 <mbrunati> shall we make a json complete serialization of RDF? 
16:09:00 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:09:07 <mbrunati> cygri: 
16:09:40 <sandro> +1 manu --- don't worry about another rdf serializaion, but DO both make it easy for json developers, AND try to including existing json data via annotations
16:10:01 <AndyS> q+ to ask about the relationship to RDFa-WG RDF API (process Q)
16:10:05 <davidwood> Scribe: mbrunati
16:10:12 <davidwood> Chair: davidwood
16:11:28 <sandro> Zakim, list attendees
16:11:28 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa,
16:11:31 <Zakim> ... David_Wood, +1.404.978.aaaa, NickH, FabGandon, +1.603.897.aabb, +1.760.705.aacc, +33.4.92.38.aadd
16:11:44 <manu> q+ to propose a separate RDF in JSON call to work through these issues.
16:12:15 <mbrunati> the discussion is on how to manage graphs, and all RDF stuff on JSON context, 
16:12:35 <sandro> cygri: This goal of trying to parse RDF out of existing json may be out of scope for this WG.
16:12:46 <davidwood> ack AndyS
16:12:46 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about the relationship to RDFa-WG RDF API (process Q)
16:12:59 <mbrunati> david: not enough time to complete the agenda on RDF Rec probably
16:13:25 <davidwood> ack manu
16:13:25 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to propose a separate RDF in JSON call to work through these issues.
16:13:26 <mbrunati> AndyS: relations between RDF - WG and RDFa
16:13:33 <tomayac> wondering whether the any-json-2-rdf-json wouldn't be a one-off mapping each single time. can there be a generalized approach?
16:14:34 <mbrunati> RDFa-WG and WG RDF API correct
16:15:00 <sandro> manu: The RDF WebApps WG will do RDFa API and RDF API.
16:15:10 <sandro> q+
16:15:12 <mbrunati> manu: there is a strong relation between these WG, the point is how to accomplish it?
16:15:49 <sandro> +1 manu, make a doodle poll for a telecon time
16:15:59 <davidwood> Sandro, do you wish to respond to Manu or address setting up a call for JSON?
16:16:03 <mbrunati> manu: we need a separate call to make clear this misunderstanding probably
16:16:14 <davidwood> ack sandro
16:16:16 <mbrunati> sandro: 
16:16:55 <mbrunati> it's not clear but it take months to manage resources on it
16:16:58 <mbrunati> david: 
16:17:00 <manu> ACTION: Manu to create a doodle poll to find a time to have a call.
16:17:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-21 - Create a doodle poll to find a time to have a call. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-23].
16:17:18 <mbrunati> probably time is finished at this time
16:17:19 <gavin> Regrets for the next meeting. And was the scribe. Jeremy will be here instead!
16:17:25 <mbrunati> thanks 
16:17:26 <tomayac> bye
16:17:28 <Zakim> -manu
16:17:30 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:17:30 <Zakim> - +33.4.92.38.aadd
16:17:34 <Zakim> - +3539149aaaa
16:17:35 <pchampin> bye
16:17:35 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aabb
16:17:35 <Zakim> -Tony
16:17:36 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
16:17:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, Sandro, AndyS, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, FabGandon, +1.404.978.aaaa, NickH (muted), yvesr (muted), ??P49,
16:17:39 <Zakim> ... +1.760.705.aacc
16:17:39 <Zakim> - +1.443.212.aaee
16:17:43 <LeeF> cheers, everyone
16:17:43 <pchampin> pchampin has left #rdf-wg
16:17:47 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aacc
16:17:48 <gavin> zakim, unmute me
16:17:49 <hsbauer> bye
16:17:49 <Zakim> gavin was not muted, gavin
16:17:52 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:17:52 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:17:57 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:18:08 <Zakim> -??P49
16:18:15 <Zakim> - +1.404.978.aaaa
16:18:24 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
16:18:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see mbrunati, JFB, Sandro, gavin, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, FabGandon, NickH (muted), yvesr (muted)
16:18:28 <Zakim> -NickH
16:18:42 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:19:29 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
16:19:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see mbrunati, JFB, Sandro, gavin, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, yvesr (muted)
16:20:10 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has left #rdf-wg
16:20:23 <sandro> gavin: I can't scribe next week, but jeremy will
16:20:31 <Zakim> -gavin
16:22:23 <danbri_> posted draft FOAF use case for named graphs in http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/4
16:22:34 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
16:22:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see mbrunati, JFB, Sandro, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, yvesr (muted)
16:22:34 <danbri_> not sure exactly what was wanted so mostly historical, with sketch of requirements
16:22:54 <Zakim> -yvesr
16:22:59 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:23:00 <Zakim> -David_Wood
16:23:00 <Zakim> - +31.20.598.aaaa
16:23:02 <Zakim> -JFB
16:23:04 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
16:23:05 <Zakim> Attendees were yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood,
16:23:07 <Zakim> ... +1.404.978.aaaa, NickH, FabGandon, +1.603.897.aabb, +1.760.705.aacc, +33.4.92.38.aadd
16:25:36 <mbrunati> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:25:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-rdf-wg-minutes.html mbrunati
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