Chatlog 2013-02-27

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15:58:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-rdf-wg-irc
15:58:57 <Guus> trackbot, start meeting
15:58:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:59:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
15:59:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
15:59:01 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:59:01 <trackbot> Date: 27 February 2013
15:59:03 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
15:59:03 <Zakim> I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted
15:59:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:59:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.408.530.aaaa, Guus
15:59:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, pfps, gkellogg, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, gavinc_, manu1, manu, yvesr, mischat, trackbot, sandro, ericP
15:59:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
15:59:06 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:59:06 <trackbot> Date: 27 February 2013
15:59:06 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
15:59:10 <AndyS> Partial regrets - I can only attend for about 45 mins.
15:59:23 <pfps> zakim, aaaa is me
15:59:23 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:59:36 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:36 <Zakim> I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted
15:59:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.408.530.aaaa, Guus
15:59:52 <pfps> zakim, aaaa is me
15:59:52 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
16:00:01 <Zakim> +??P2
16:00:05 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P2
16:00:05 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
16:00:09 <Zakim> +??P3
16:00:19 <SteveH> Zakim, ??p3 is me
16:00:19 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
16:00:36 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:00:49 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:00:50 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
16:00:52 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
16:00:52 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
16:00:59 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ -- current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.27
16:01:00 <Zakim> +??P6
16:01:05 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P6 is me
16:01:05 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
16:01:21 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:16 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
16:02:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Guus, gkellogg, SteveH, TallTed (muted), yvesr
16:02:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, pfps, gkellogg, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, gavinc_, manu1, manu, yvesr, mischat, trackbot, sandro, ericP
16:02:21 <Zakim> +GavinC
16:02:43 <Zakim> + +081165aabb
16:03:02 <AZ> Zakim, aabb is me
16:03:02 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
16:03:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:03:31 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
16:03:31 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
16:03:47 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
16:04:20 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:04:20 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:04:21 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:04:27 <Zakim> +Arnaud
16:04:33 <ivan> zakim, mute me
16:04:33 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
16:05:03 <Guus> zakim, pick a scribe
16:05:03 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AZ
16:05:24 <markus> markus has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:45 <AZ> scribe: AZ
16:06:26 <AZ> Topic: Admin
16:06:27 <AZ> Topic: Turtle
16:07:13 <Zakim> +??P8
16:07:18 <markus> zakim, ??P8 is me
16:07:18 <Zakim> +markus; got it
16:07:20 <AZ> gavinc_: there should be a page about the CR
16:07:40 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
16:07:42 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:07:55 <AZ> gavinc_: before Turtle being published we agreed to produce a document about thinigs done in Last Call?
16:09:20 <AZ> Guus: we can close the comments by internalization group
16:09:35 <AZ> Guus: Ivan proposed to write a page like the OWL page
16:09:49 <Souri> Souri has joined #RDF-WG
16:09:55 <PatH> having a little trouble calling in, working on it.
16:10:07 <AZ> sandro: in RDF, documents are pretty much self standing
16:10:33 <gkellogg> Turtle, TriG, and N-Triples would seem to be more closely related.
16:10:34 <Zakim> +??P14
16:10:41 <AZ> Guus: let us archive all comments being done since CR
16:10:45 <gavinc_> Yeah, my thoughts as well gkellogg
16:10:55 <gavinc_> given I have to update all three of those
16:11:01 <ivan> ivan, unmute me
16:11:07 <Souri> zakim, P14 is me
16:11:07 <Zakim> sorry, Souri, I do not recognize a party named 'P14'
16:11:14 <Souri> zakim, ??P14 is me
16:11:15 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
16:11:31 <AZ> gavinc_: I'll finish a page about the comments
16:11:59 <gkellogg> q+ on test suite coverage
16:12:04 <AZ> gavinc_: we have to publish the test cases
16:12:11 <AndyS> +1 to gkellogg -- and NQuads.
16:12:17 <AZ> sandro: they should be linked from the document
16:12:31 <gkellogg> Conformance Report: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/reports/index.html
16:12:34 <PatH> looks like I am going to have to be restricted to IRC until my phone carrier comes back :-(
16:12:35 <AZ> ...: and we have to list the implementations
16:13:31 <pfps> shouldn't we note this error and fix it at REC?
16:14:05 <AZ> AndyS: their could be a formal publication of the test suite
16:14:25 <AZ> ... W3C would use the test suite licence
16:15:01 <AZ> (sorry did not get the end)
16:15:17 <sandro> google brings me to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Test_Suite
16:15:47 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2008/04-testsuite-license.html
16:16:10 <AZ> AndyS: they are not complaininng of tests suite licence, but they complain about the Apacche Licence attached to it
16:17:24 <AZ> ... I could change this as a copywriter
16:17:34 <gavinc_> I'd say the main issue is the lack of publication of the test suite
16:18:34 <AZ> sandro: the page about test suite should have link to the suite
16:20:12 <AZ> sandro: I can update the submission to point to the the suite
16:20:38 <Guus> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/file/default/rdf-turtle/tests-ttl
16:20:56 <AZ> Guus: in the extension request the link to test suite was the one posted
16:21:12 <gkellogg> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/reports/index.html
16:21:49 <AZ> Guus: who would like to take an action to do this
16:22:02 <AZ> gavinc: I can do this
16:22:44 <AZ> gavinc: I can also resolve the licence issue
16:23:39 <AZ> gavinc: we can set up a mercurial directory and put a tag there
16:24:23 <AZ> AndyS: sandro, could you check the W3C process for the test suite
16:25:05 <gkellogg> List of dajobe's current Turtle tests, including test-31 through test-38: https://github.com/dajobe/raptor/tree/master/tests/turtle
16:25:05 <sandro> action: sandro to learn about the w3c test suite license
16:25:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-232 - Learn about the w3c test suite license [on Sandro Hawke - due 2013-03-06].
16:25:15 <Guus> ACTION Gavin to publish the consolidated test suite
16:25:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-233 - Publish the consolidated test suite [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-03-06].
16:25:38 <AZ> gavinc: all tests are under W3C license and ??? licence
16:25:43 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2004/10/27-testcases
16:25:51 <sandro> s/???/3-clause BSD/
16:25:59 <AndyS> ??? == W3C test suite license
16:26:46 <Zakim> +PatH
16:27:15 <gavinc> https://github.com/dajobe/raptor/blob/master/tests/turtle/test-30.ttl
16:28:16 <AZ> topic:Semantics
16:28:17 <gavinc> btw #turtle exists ;)
16:28:46 <AndyS> gregg - there was renumbering old 30 is new 27 and is there
16:28:47 <AZ> Guus: there are several emails on the first editor's draft for semantics
16:28:54 <AZ> ... from pfps and Path
16:28:58 <gkellogg> andys: cool, thanks
16:29:27 <AndyS> greeg - blame automated test suite writing.
16:29:35 <AZ> PatH: I think all the issues can be resolved wihtout spending much telecon time
16:29:39 <AndyS> s/greeg/gregg/
16:29:54 <AZ> pfps: we have to resovle the issues on ill-typed literals do not denote anymore
16:30:24 <pfps> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Feb/0233.html
16:32:03 <AZ> PatH: it's a substantial change to semantics and made in reaction to Richard's request
16:32:21 <ericP> oops, looks like i missed the test suite topic
16:32:28 <ericP> can anyone confirm/deny that?
16:32:38 <AZ> ... who believe that a graph that has ill-typed literals should not be consistent
16:33:01 <AZ> ... the proposal makes all triples with an ill-typed literal false
16:33:35 <pfps> this change has been discussed extensively in the past, as well
16:33:43 <AZ> ... I haven't find arguments really against it
16:34:10 <Guus> PROPOSE closing Issue 109 as described by Pat back in November in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0195.html  The proposal is, roughly, to make ill-typed literals not denote anything, which (due to the very picky details of the wording of the rest of the semantics) means that any triple with an ill-typed literal is false (and not ill-typed itself, which you might have thought).
16:34:21 <pfps> +1
16:34:23 <AZ> +1
16:34:24 <PatH> +1
16:34:26 <TallTed> +1
16:34:28 <yvesr> +1
16:34:28 <Souri> +1
16:34:29 <ivan> +1
16:34:29 <pfps> +0.999999
16:34:30 <Guus> +1
16:34:32 <gkellogg> +1
16:34:33 <sandro> +1
16:34:33 <markus> +1
16:34:43 <Arnaud> 0
16:34:47 <Guus> RESOLVED: closing Issue 109 as described by Pat back in November in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0195.html  The proposal is, roughly, to make ill-typed literals not denote anything, which (due to the very picky details of the wording of the rest of the semantics) means that any triple with an ill-typed literal is false (and not ill-typed itself, which you might have thought).
16:35:35 <AZ> pfps: which datatypes are required in RDF implementation
16:35:52 <AndyS> q+
16:35:59 <gkellogg> q-
16:36:00 <gavinc> +1 to RDF XMLLiteral being optional... I swear we resolved that?
16:36:12 <sandro> +1 I think so, too.
16:36:17 <gavinc> ... are you SURE we don't?
16:36:37 <AZ> ... in particular XMLLiteral?
16:37:22 <gavinc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012May/0198.html
16:37:36 <sandro> issue-13?
16:37:36 <trackbot> ISSUE-13 -- Review RDF XML Literals -- closed
16:37:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/13
16:37:50 <AZ> ... can someone fix the "list of resolutions"
16:37:53 <AndyS> q-
16:38:07 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/closed is a good place to start looking for resolutions :)
16:38:33 <AZ> gavinc: HTML is optional too (ISSUE 33)
16:38:49 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/63
16:39:02 <AZ> s/63/33/
16:39:11 <AZ> s/33/63/
16:39:42 <AZ> ... the last issue is rdf:langString
16:39:59 <AZ> s/.../pfps/
16:40:44 <AZ> PatH: I think the idea was a datatype with empty lexical-to-value mapping
16:41:26 <gavinc> Also, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0071.html
16:41:28 <AZ> ... the goal is to have a type for all literals but not force rdf:langString to be a proper datatype
16:41:39 <AZ> pfps: this should be fixed in Concepts
16:41:58 <gavinc> This is related to ISSUE-94
16:42:00 <gavinc> ISSUE-94?
16:42:00 <trackbot> ISSUE-94 -- Definition of literals does not include language-tagged strings properly -- closed
16:42:00 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/94
16:42:25 <AZ> pfps: everything else in the semantics can be seen just as bugs
16:42:41 <ivan> q+
16:42:45 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
16:42:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Guus, gkellogg, SteveH, TallTed (muted), yvesr, GavinC, AZ, AndyS, Ivan (muted), Arnaud (muted), markus, Sandro, Souri, PatH
16:42:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, PatH, markus, Arnaud, AZ, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, pfps, gkellogg, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, yvesr, mischat, trackbot, sandro, ericP
16:43:10 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:43:47 <AZ> pfps: it just requires minor edits to make it a FPWD
16:44:13 <AZ> Guus: <can't hear>
16:44:29 <Zakim> -Guus
16:44:46 <Guus> reviews can be done befpre html edits
16:44:59 <Guus> review volunteers? at least two needed
16:45:26 <pfps> can't be me
16:45:31 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
16:45:31 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
16:45:45 <pfps> I suggest Richard, even though he is not on the call - he cares about this
16:46:00 <Zakim> +Guus
16:46:58 <AZ> Guus: we need reviewers for the document, even before the edits
16:47:03 <AZ> AZ: I can review it
16:47:18 <AZ> pfps: I would like Richard to do it
16:47:32 <Guus> ACTION Guus to ask Richard to review Semantics
16:47:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-234 - Ask Richard to review Semantics [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-03-06].
16:47:44 <AZ> PatH: there is a section that is missing about the inference rules
16:47:57 <pfps> the inference rules are informative, not normative
16:48:09 <AZ> ivan: what's going on with the rules?
16:48:21 <AZ> ... in which document do they go
16:48:53 <AZ> PatH: we can put the rules in an informative section in Semantics
16:49:01 <pfps> I vote for fewer documents
16:49:15 <pfps> why are the rules needed for concepts?
16:49:31 <AZ> ACTION AZ to review RDF 1.1 Semantics
16:49:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-235 - Review RDF 1.1 Semantics [on Antoine Zimmermann - due 2013-03-06].
16:49:49 <AZ> Guus: we really need to go to LC for Concepts
16:49:58 <AZ> ... for this we need a FPWD for Semantics
16:50:30 <AZ> ivan: our extension request said we would have Concepts in LC by 1st march
16:50:56 <AZ> PatH: I can do the changes before next telecon
16:51:49 <AZ> Guus: in the mean time we can talk about Concepts to prepare it for LC
16:52:43 <Guus> Reviewing period Semantics draft: 6-13 Mar
16:53:33 <pfps> q+
16:53:35 <AZ> PatH: there is a debate about D-entailemnt whether D should be seen as a datatype map
16:53:55 <AZ> ... I see a solution that requires a small change to RDF Concepts
16:54:00 <ivan> q-
16:54:08 <AZ> Guus: let us get this to the agenda of next week
16:54:32 <Guus> ack pfps
16:54:55 <AZ> pfps: I believe Pat's solution is not viable
16:55:22 <AZ> PatH: I know how to fix this, I have to make it more precise
16:55:34 <AZ> +1 pfps
16:55:44 <pfps> my problem is with a normative part of RDF Semantics referring to "web conventions"
16:56:10 <AZ> topic:Concepts
16:56:21 <AZ> Guus: there is an issue on bnode definition
16:56:50 <AZ> PatH: Concepts sould define the notion of scope
16:57:01 <AZ> ... scope of bnodes
16:59:43 <AZ> <people looking in the ML archives>
16:59:59 <Guus> ACTION Guus put spec of scope bnodes in Concepts on agenda for 6 Mar
16:59:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-236 - Put spec of scope bnodes in Concepts on agenda for 6 Mar [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-03-06].
17:00:42 <pfps> I can review Concepts, but I will reiterate my concerns that have not yet been addressed.
17:00:43 <AZ> Guus: we need reviewers for the LC draft
17:01:14 <pfps> There has been push back on some of them.
17:01:15 <AZ> I can review too, to be sure my concerns have been addressed
17:01:23 <PatH> i can review concepts.
17:02:01 <SteveH> I'll be on vacation
17:02:21 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me
17:02:21 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted
17:02:51 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
17:02:51 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
17:03:06 <Guus> Peter and Ted are reviewer candidates
17:03:25 <AZ> topic:JSON-LD
17:03:59 <AZ> Guus: we must find reviewers for this one too
17:04:00 <Guus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Feb/0189.html
17:05:15 <AZ> PatH: I'll volunteer
17:05:20 <AZ> sandro: I'll volunteer too
17:06:26 <AZ> PatH: in fact, if it's now, I'll have to withdraw sorry
17:06:57 <AZ> Guus: let us ask AndyS if he'd like to revieww it
17:07:06 <Guus> ACTION Guus to ask Andy to review JSPN-LD syntax doc
17:07:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-237 - Ask Andy to review JSPN-LD syntax doc [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-03-06].
17:07:26 <AZ> s/JSPN-LD/JSON-LD/
17:08:23 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:08:26 <AZ> gkellogg: we have work to do on the API
17:08:28 <Zakim> -Arnaud
17:08:29 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:08:29 <Zakim> -PatH
17:08:31 <AZ> bye
17:08:32 <Zakim> -markus
17:08:32 <Zakim> -TallTed
17:08:33 <Zakim> -gkellogg
17:08:34 <Zakim> -GavinC
17:08:34 <Zakim> -yvesr
17:08:35 <markus> bye
17:08:36 <Zakim> -SteveH
17:08:40 <Zakim> -AZ
17:08:41 <Zakim> -pfps
17:08:41 <Zakim> -Guus
17:08:48 <Zakim> -Souri
17:08:50 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
17:08:50 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.530.aaaa, Guus, pfps, gkellogg, SteveH, TallTed, yvesr, GavinC, +081165aabb, AZ, AndyS, Ivan, Arnaud, markus, Sandro, Souri, PatH
17:09:41 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
17:09:50 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting
17:09:50 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:09:50 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:09:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:09:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
17:09:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:09:59 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
17:09:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: sandro to learn about the w3c test suite license [1]
17:09:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-rdf-wg-irc#T16-25-05-1
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