Chatlog 2012-12-12

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15:58:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/12-rdf-wg-irc
15:58:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:58:07 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
15:58:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
15:58:10 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:58:10 <trackbot> Date: 12 December 2012
15:59:44 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:59:52 <Zakim> +??P4
16:00:16 <Zakim> + +31.20.598.aaaa
16:00:35 <Guus_> zakim, +31.20 is me
16:00:35 <Zakim> +Guus_; got it
16:00:38 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P4 is me
16:00:39 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
16:00:41 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:00:58 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:00:58 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:01:00 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:01:00 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:01:14 <MacTed> MacTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ - current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.12.12
16:01:36 <Guus_> eric: can you scribe
16:01:43 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:11 <Guus_> zakim, who is here?
16:02:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Guus_, MacTed (muted)
16:02:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see gkellogg, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus_, davidwood1, LeeF, MacTed, ivan, Arnaud, mischat, manu, ericP, manu1, trackbot, yvesr, sandro
16:02:51 <Guus_> three of us here, waiting for others to join
16:03:09 <Zakim> +Arnaud
16:03:12 <Zakim> +LeeF
16:03:38 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:03:56 <Zakim> +ivan
16:04:34 <Zakim> +EricP
16:04:42 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:08 <Zakim> +MHausenblas
16:05:09 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:21 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
16:05:21 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:06:16 <cygri> scribe: cygri
16:06:20 <Zakim> +PatH
16:06:22 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
16:06:36 <PatH> zakim, mute me
16:06:36 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
16:07:18 <cygri> chair: guus
16:07:24 <cygri> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.12.12
16:07:26 <cygri> topic: Admin
16:07:48 <cygri> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 05 December telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-05
16:08:08 <zwu2> got a phone problem...
16:08:18 <cygri> RESOLUTION: Accept the minutes of the 05 December telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-05
16:08:32 <cygri> Review of action items
16:08:33 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:08:45 <cygri> guus: I think sandro can claim success on one action
16:09:05 <cygri> ACTION-217?
16:09:05 <trackbot> ACTION-217 -- Sandro Hawke to produce an LALR grammar that supports "<a> <b> <c> ; ;" and "<a> <b> <c> ; ; ." -- due 2012-12-12 -- OPEN
16:09:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/217
16:10:08 <cygri> topic: Turtle
16:10:20 <cygri> subtopic: I18N comments
16:10:32 <cygri> guus: I18n came with a long list of responses just before the deadline we set
16:11:02 <cygri> ... I invited someone from i18n WG to join us
16:11:13 <cygri> ericP: their meeting is in parallel
16:11:39 <cygri> mail from addison: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Dec/0030.html
16:11:57 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/20121210234622.GE25523@w3.org -> ericP'
16:12:20 <Zakim> + +1.408.992.aabb
16:12:27 <cygri> ericP: issue-178 is a nit about how BCP47 is referenced
16:12:29 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
16:12:34 <AndyS1> AndyS1 has joined #rdf-wg
16:12:42 <cygri> ... I pointed out where the reference is, and he was content with that
16:13:07 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/mid/131F80DEA635F044946897AFDA9AC34773A90CC92C@EX-SEA31-D.ant.amazon.com
16:13:17 <cygri> guus: is his response on the mailing list?
16:13:22 <MacTed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0133.html
16:13:33 <cygri> ericP: it's on the www-international list
16:14:41 <cygri> ... issue-180, i fixed this everywhere except in the grammar, where we follow XML grammar convention. he was content with that.
16:15:32 <cygri> ... issue-183, we need good examples for integer, decimal and double
16:15:38 <cygri> ... for the shortcut notations
16:15:51 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aacc
16:16:01 <ericP> > @prefix : <http://example.org/elements> .
16:16:05 <ericP> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium>
16:16:07 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
16:16:09 <cygri> ... the complaint was that i was using quantities without explicit units
16:16:09 <ericP> >     :atomicNumber 2 ;               # xsd:integer
16:16:13 <ericP> >     :atomicMass 4.002602 ;          # xsd:decimal
16:16:17 <ericP> >     :specificGravity 1.663E-4 .     # xsd:double
16:16:45 <cygri> ... i came up with a chemistry example. he liked it. it might be a bit harder to approach. i can commit if the WG is ok with it
16:16:52 <PatH> I like it, especially if it said in a squeaky voice.
16:17:13 <cygri> guus: any objections to using it?
16:17:14 <Zakim> + +1.603.438.aadd
16:17:22 <cygri> ... none heard
16:17:33 <zwu2> zakim, +1.603.438.aadd is me
16:17:33 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
16:17:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:17:54 <cygri> ericP: (does the hg push dance in the background)
16:17:57 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:17:57 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
16:18:13 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
16:18:36 <cygri> ... issue-189 was effectively the same as issue-178
16:19:12 <cygri> ... issue-190 requires no action on our part, he agreed that staying aligned with XML is a reasonable choice
16:19:16 <cygri> ... that's all
16:19:33 <cygri> guus: very good, that's not as bad as i thought
16:19:35 <PatH> Well done Eric.
16:20:02 <cygri> ... it would be good if this was on record on our comments list
16:20:09 <cygri> ericP: i'll try to bounce it there
16:20:43 <cygri> subtopic: Left-recursive LALR(1) grammar for turtle
16:21:05 <cygri> ericP: it would be very nice to publish with an LALR or LL1 grammar
16:21:17 <cygri> ... andy said that sandro's grammar has a shift-reduce conflict
16:21:34 <AndyS> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_recursion
16:21:36 <cygri> ... including those is unfortunate as it's bad for error reporting
16:21:45 <cygri> ... but we need to make progress
16:22:12 <cygri> ... propose adding a note that shows both productions
16:22:13 <AndyS> The S/R error is silent in many systems (default is shift - see Bison reference)
16:22:38 <cygri> ... mark it as an at-risk feature in the next publication
16:22:40 <ivan> q+
16:22:43 <Guus_> q?
16:22:59 <cygri> ivan: you think we can't go to CR?
16:23:07 <ericP> <><><>;;;.
16:23:18 <cygri> ericP: if we changed the language -- changed what's an acceptable turtle document...
16:23:20 <Arnaud> didn't we go over this last week already??
16:23:32 <cygri> ivan: if you mark the specific feature at-risk, then i don't see a problem
16:23:50 <cygri> guus: we discussed this extensively last week
16:24:17 <AndyS> q+ to ask why we replace one rule with one which creates probs for other people.
16:24:19 <cygri> ericP: i just would like to make sure that the at-risk text mentions that we plan to find a grammar that's LALR1 and LL1 friendly
16:24:30 <ivan> ack ivan
16:24:52 <PatH> Aew we going to do that or are we inviting the world to ty to write one?
16:25:37 <PatH> q?
16:26:27 <ericP> PROPOSED: provide At Risk text which notes: 1 change from prior publication; 2 that the WG wants "<><><>;;;." to be legal; 3 that we will look for a grammar representation which produces no S/R conflicts in LL(1) or LALR(1)
16:26:49 <cygri> ericP: this should be possible, as SPARQL grammar doesn't have conflicts
16:27:53 <cygri> AndyS: i thought the agreement was to keep the grammar from sparql, and add a note saying how it can be done with a different grammar
16:28:14 <cygri> ericP: I believe that's a change from the previous publication
16:28:51 <cygri> AndyS: we shouldn't be making life more difficult for some people just to make it easier for some others.
16:29:11 <cygri> ericP: what's wrong with finding a grammar that works for both?
16:29:43 <cygri> [scribe can't keep up]
16:30:05 <Guus_> let's summarize later, richard
16:30:29 <AndyS> SPARQL -- [77]  PropertyListNotEmpty  ::=  Verb ObjectList ( ';' ( Verb ObjectList )? )*
16:30:42 <cygri> ericP: i think we could make a grammar that is LL1 and LALR1 friendly. but that would take too much time.
16:31:18 <cygri> AndyS: we would then have different grammars for turtle and sparql
16:32:04 <cygri> ericP: what's the concern with finding a LALR1 friendly expression?
16:34:35 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Dec/0025.html
16:34:56 <cygri> ericP: the SPARQL grammar has no shift-reduce conflict, but the same grammar rules produce a shift-reduce conflict in turtle because the context is different
16:36:33 <cygri> [disagreement whether the current grammar produces a S/R conflict or not]
16:37:35 <PatH> Hey, the Pope just tweeted.
16:38:02 <LeeF> :-)
16:38:10 <AndyS> I do not support the text but will not object.
16:38:19 <Arnaud> +1
16:38:25 <ivan> +1
16:38:37 <ericP> +1
16:38:41 <zwu2> +0
16:38:42 <ivan> +1
16:38:44 <cygri> ±0
16:38:47 <PatH> +0
16:38:51 <MacTed> +0
16:38:57 <Souri> 0
16:39:12 <yvesr> 0
16:39:46 <cygri> ivan: having an at-risk on a minor detail like that is the way to go, shouldn't hold up CR
16:39:56 <LeeF> +1
16:40:07 <cygri> ericP: but the question is whether it should also say that we may still tweak the grammar
16:40:11 <AndyS> Alternative proposal -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Dec/0025.html
16:40:35 <cygri> RESOLUTION: provide At Risk text which notes: 1 change from prior publication; 2 that the WG wants "<><><>;;;." to be legal; 3 that we will look for a grammar representation which produces no S/R conflicts in LL(1) or LALR(1)
16:40:53 <cygri> AndyS: alternative proposal is for the record
16:41:28 <cygri> guus: ivan, would it be okay to make CR proposal given that it was not on the agenda?
16:41:31 <cygri> ivan: yes
16:41:56 <ericP> -> dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html editor's draft of Turtle Spec
16:42:07 <ericP> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html editor's draft of Turtle Spec
16:42:16 <ivan> +1
16:43:31 <ericP> PROPOSAL: that the Rdf WG ask for a transition of the Turtle Spec from LC to CR
16:44:13 <cygri> subtopic: CR transition
16:45:25 <cygri> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/402f2133f823/rdf-turtle/index.html
16:45:25 <ericP> PROPOSAL: that the Rdf WG ask the director for a transition of the Turtle Spec <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html> from Last Call to Candidate Rec
16:45:53 <Arnaud> +1
16:45:54 <ivan> +1
16:45:56 <swh> swh has joined #rdf-wg
16:45:58 <Guus_> +1
16:45:58 <yvesr> +1
16:45:59 <ericP> +1
16:45:59 <cygri> +1
16:46:01 <zwu2> 1
16:46:01 <MacTed> +1
16:46:09 <Souri> +1
16:46:15 <pfps> +1
16:46:38 <ericP> RESOLVED: that the Rdf WG ask the director for a transition of the Turtle Spec <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html> from Last Call to Candidate Rec
16:46:51 <cygri> guus: would like to thank the editors
16:47:14 <ericP> ACTION: guus to write Turtle CR transtion request
16:47:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-218 - Write Turtle CR transtion request [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-12-19].
16:47:17 <cygri> ... i will write the transition request, may need some input from the eds
16:47:34 <cygri> ivan: target publication date would be 1st or 2nd week of january
16:48:07 <cygri> ... there has to be one week between the request for transition and the transition itself
16:48:47 <cygri> ... the final version has to be frozen and goes to the transition call
16:48:58 <cygri> ... when can you cast it in concrete?
16:49:07 <cygri> ericP: tomorrow, today, when is it needed?
16:49:28 <cygri> guus: i would like to have a frozen version as quick as we can
16:50:01 <cygri> ivan: we need five business day between transition request and transition call
16:50:15 <cygri> guus: can we have the call end of next week?
16:50:37 <cygri> ivan: we could try next week friday if the request goes out tomorrow
16:51:11 <cygri> ... assuming ralph is around
16:51:45 <cygri> guus: so if the request goes out next week, we can have the call first business week of january
16:52:54 <cygri> ... one more topic for the CR transition is testing
16:53:06 <cygri> ... i'll put it on the agenda next week
16:53:28 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
16:53:33 <ericP> topic: JSON-LD
16:54:13 <Guus_> zakim, who is here?
16:54:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Guus_, MacTed (muted), Arnaud (muted), LeeF, ivan, EricP, cygri, PatH (muted), +1.408.992.aabb, +1.603.897.aacc, zwu2, AndyS
16:54:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see swh, Souri, AndyS, pfps, cygri, PatH, zwu2, gkellogg, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus_, davidwood1, LeeF, MacTed, ivan, Arnaud, mischat, manu, ericP, manu1, trackbot, yvesr,
16:54:15 <Zakim> ... sandro
16:55:15 <ericP> guus: i tried to push some work from your plate to the task force. did that work?
16:55:22 <ericP> cygri: not sure if there's been progress?
16:55:30 <ericP> topic: RDF Concepts
16:55:51 <ericP> guus: last week, we agreed to publish, presuming agreement of the editors
16:56:01 <ericP> ... pfps published a review just afterwards
16:56:21 <ericP> cygri: pfps and antoine gave many good comments
16:56:33 <ericP> ... they agreed to publish if we could address them
16:56:40 <ericP> ... that was the outcome of two weeks ago
16:56:50 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:57:10 <ericP> ... i haven't updated the doc to reflect these comments, but they all seem feasible
16:57:21 <ericP> ... at the worst, there will be some new issue text
16:59:01 <ericP> ivan: if denis has the text in hand today, he can publish tomorrow
16:59:31 <ericP> cygri: today boston time means next 4 hours. i *think* i can pull this off
17:00:21 <ericP> ... i'd like to get this off my plate
17:00:33 <Zakim> -PatH
17:00:43 <PatH> bye all.
17:00:46 <zwu2> bye
17:00:48 <Zakim> - +1.408.992.aabb
17:00:50 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:00:50 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aacc
17:00:52 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:00:52 <Zakim> -yvesr
17:00:56 <Zakim> -cygri
17:00:56 <Zakim> -Arnaud
17:00:56 <Zakim> -ivan
17:00:59 <cygri> ivan, just to confirm
17:01:06 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:01:10 <ivan> yes?
17:01:11 <cygri> what exactly do i send to whom?
17:01:12 <Zakim> -EricP
17:01:45 <ivan> Denis Ah-Kang <denis@w3.org>, copy to webreq@w3.org
17:01:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus_
17:01:57 <Zakim> Guus_ is being disconnected
17:01:58 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
17:01:58 <Zakim> Attendees were +31.20.598.aaaa, Guus_, yvesr, MacTed, Arnaud, LeeF, ivan, EricP, cygri, PatH, +1.408.992.aabb, +1.603.897.aacc, zwu2, AndyS
17:02:10 <cygri> excellent, ivan. what do i need to provide along with the link?
17:02:24 <cygri> just the url or anything else?
17:02:29 <ivan> richard, I will draft and send an official publication request
17:02:33 <ivan> cc to you
17:02:41 <cygri> ok great
17:02:45 <ivan> and then you will have to send him the exact URI where the text is
17:02:53 <ivan> whenever it is done
17:03:08 <cygri> awesome. i'll go do my editing then
17:03:47 <cygri> thanks a lot ivan!
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