Chatlog 2012-12-05

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16:00:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-irc
16:00:16 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P10 is me
16:00:16 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
16:00:17 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
16:00:29 <pchampin_> pchampin_ has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:41 <ericP> trackbot, start meeting
16:00:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:00:45 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
16:00:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
16:00:46 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:00:46 <trackbot> Date: 05 December 2012
16:00:52 <Guus> zakim, mute me
16:00:52 <Zakim> sorry, Guus, I don't know what conference this is
16:00:53 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:06 <ericP> Zakim, this is rdf
16:01:06 <Zakim> ok, ericP; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
16:01:12 <Zakim> +Arnaud
16:01:24 <markus> markus has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:30 <davidwood> Zakim, this is RDF
16:01:30 <Zakim> davidwood, this was already SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
16:01:31 <Zakim> ok, davidwood; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
16:01:41 <Zakim> +??P14
16:01:53 <pchampin_> zakim, ??P14 is me
16:01:53 <Zakim> +pchampin_; got it
16:01:55 <Zakim> +??P15
16:01:59 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P15
16:01:59 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
16:02:02 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
16:02:16 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:02:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.540.898.aaaa, +31.20.598.aabb, yvesr, OpenLink_Software, Arnaud, pchampin_, gkellogg, [GVoice]
16:02:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, Arnaud, AndyS, pchampin_, RRSAgent, Zakim, ericP, Guus, gkellogg, manu1, MacTed, davidwood, webr3, trackbot, yvesr, sandro, manu, mischat
16:02:24 <davidwood> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:02:24 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
16:02:25 <ericP> Zakim, [GVoice] is me
16:02:25 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
16:02:26 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:02:26 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:02:27 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:02:27 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:02:56 <Arnaud> scribe: Arnaud
16:02:57 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:03:24 <AndyS> I am muted
16:03:35 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:03:35 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
16:04:09 <Zakim> +??P27
16:04:09 <Arnaud> topic: Minutes of last meeting
16:04:01 <davidwood> PROPOSED: accept the minutes of the 28 Nov telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-11-28
16:04:17 <davidwood> RESOLVED: accept the minutes of the 28 Nov telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-11-28
16:04:22 <markus> Zakim, ??P27 is me
16:04:22 <Zakim> +markus; got it
16:04:26 <Arnaud> topic: Action items
16:04:27 <davidwood> Review of action items
16:04:27 <davidwood> 	▪	http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:04:27 <davidwood> 	▪	http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
16:04:35 <MacTed> MacTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ - current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.12.05
16:04:49 <Arnaud> no pending review
16:05:12 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:05:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, +31.20.598.aabb, yvesr, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, pchampin_, gkellogg, ericP, AndyS, markus
16:05:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, Arnaud, AndyS, pchampin_, RRSAgent, Zakim, ericP, Guus, gkellogg, manu1, MacTed, davidwood, webr3, trackbot, yvesr, sandro, manu, mischat
16:05:13 <Arnaud> davidwood: anyone claiming credit for any of the open actions?
16:05:17 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:06:03 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aacc
16:06:16 <ivan> ivan has joined #rdf-wg
16:06:25 <zwu2> zakim,+1.650.265.aacc is me
16:06:25 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
16:06:28 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:06:28 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:07:11 <ivan> zakim, code?
16:07:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
16:07:16 <Arnaud> davidwood: none, moving on
16:07:25 <Arnaud> topic: Updating W3C Web Summaries
16:07:35 <Zakim> +ivan
16:07:36 <davidwood> Can we update http://www.w3.org/RDF/ ?
16:07:49 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aadd
16:08:24 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:08:24 <sandro> sorry I'm late
16:08:36 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
16:08:49 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/standards/techs/rdf#w3c_all
16:08:54 <Arnaud> ivan: this is wiki so it should be easy to update
16:08:58 <davidwood> Why doesn't http://www.w3.org/standards/techs/rdf#w3c_all list RDFa?
16:09:29 <Arnaud> ivan: that page is automatically generated based on some magic formula
16:09:50 <Arnaud> sandro: send an email to webmaster to request an update
16:10:28 <markus> Btw. JSON-LD API spec is also missing from the list at http://www.w3.org/standards/techs/rdf#w3c_all
16:11:18 <davidwood> Action: davidwood to arrange update of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview and http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
16:11:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-216 - Arrange update of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview and http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open [on David Wood - due 2012-12-12].
16:12:06 <Arnaud> topic: Turtle
16:12:42 <Arnaud> subtopic: test preparations
16:13:12 <ericP> local name					//subject/iri/PrefixedName/PNAME_LN
16:13:12 <ericP> objectList with two objects			//predicateObjectList[objectList/object[2]]
16:13:12 <ericP> predicateObjectList with two objectLists	//predicateObjectList[objectList[2]]
16:13:20 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
16:13:59 <Arnaud> ericp: have been working on a script for testing
16:14:17 <ericP> dvcs .... /rdf-turtle/coverage/paths
16:14:26 <ericP> dvcs .... /rdf-turtle/coverage
16:14:32 <Arnaud> ... should I commit this stuff to mercurial?
16:14:55 <Arnaud> sandro: concerned this will get published
16:16:24 <Zakim> +PatH
16:16:39 <ericP> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/
16:17:17 <Arnaud> discussion on where to put eric's stuff
16:18:46 <PatH> zakim, mute me
16:18:46 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
16:20:13 <Arnaud> ericp: could put a README to give instructions on publication
16:20:46 <Arnaud> ericp: will create a new directory
16:20:49 <Arnaud> subtopic: LC comments
16:21:04 <Arnaud> eripc: not sure where we stand on the I18N comments
16:21:16 <Arnaud> ericp: will ping Richard
16:21:31 <Arnaud> s/eripc/ericp/
16:21:54 <Arnaud> ivan: we need to give a firm deadline
16:21:56 <ericP> s/will ping Richard/will ping Richard Ishida/
16:22:22 <Arnaud> ivan: you need to go to the chair
16:23:02 <ericP> is it better to mail the right person who won't respond or the wrong person who will respond?
16:23:11 <Arnaud> ... specifying that by December 15 if we don't hear back from them we will consider the issue closed
16:23:36 <Arnaud> ivan: for Prov they didn't reply
16:24:18 <Arnaud> ericp: ok, will do
16:25:11 <Arnaud> ericp: we have another issue with the grammar we need to figure out what to do with
16:26:35 <Arnaud> ... if we change the grammar I expect we'd have another LC
16:27:12 <Arnaud> ivan: would only be required if there is a design change, don't think this applies
16:27:31 <Arnaud> ericp: issue is that the language changes
16:28:03 <Arnaud> this is because we didn't manage to make it an LL1 grammar
16:28:34 <sandro> AndyS ?
16:28:48 <Arnaud> gkellogg: it's a performance issue
16:28:57 <AndyS> Let's be concrete - ptr to rule?
16:29:17 <Arnaud> ericp: in any case the grammar now appears to be different, allows n trailing semi colons
16:29:21 <gkellogg> [7] predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList (";" (predicateObjectList)?)*
16:29:58 <Arnaud> ericp: need to dig back into the history
#16:30:02 <Arnaud> sandro: still don'
16:30:21 <Arnaud> sandro: still don't think this qualifies for 2nd LC
16:30:29 <ivan> q+
16:31:27 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:31:28 <Arnaud> ivan: according to ralph we could make note of the change when going to CR and still go to CR
16:31:29 <sandro> Ivan: quoting Ralph Swick -- how about we just make this AT RISK then we can go to CR without solving this first
16:31:34 <AndyS> eric wants something more ... non recursive which is a tool issue.
16:31:50 <PatH> Well, that was easy.
16:32:13 <Arnaud> ivan: this is a corner case that doesn't seem worth losing weeks over
16:32:27 <AndyS> q+
16:32:40 <Arnaud> ... very few implementers will actually be impacted
16:32:43 <davidwood> ack AndyS
16:32:56 <gkellogg> Andy's rule: predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList (";" (predicateObjectList)?)?
16:33:02 <Arnaud> andys: this matters to people who automatically produce data
16:33:29 <Arnaud> sandro: as a user I would like the freedom of adding extra semi colons
16:33:40 <Arnaud> gkellogg: I agree
16:34:29 <Arnaud> ericp: we need to figure this out to exit LC
16:34:48 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-predicateObjectList
16:35:41 <Arnaud> LC rule has a * at the end: predicateObjectList  ::=  verb objectList (';' predicateObjectList?)*
16:35:53 <gkellogg> [7] predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList ( ";" ( verb objectList)? )*
16:36:26 <PatH> It's semicolons all the way down.
16:36:55 <sandro> In LC: predicateObjectList 	::= 	verb objectList (';' predicateObjectList?)*
16:37:31 <Arnaud> andys: we should focus on what we want, instead of what we have
16:37:42 <Arnaud> ... do we want to allow multiple semi colons or not?
16:38:58 <sandro> sandro: lets do test cases that have multiple and trailing semicolons
16:39:28 <PatH> allowing <anything> has obvious advantages. Are there any reasons to prohibit multiple semicolons? If not, I suggest we decide to allow them.
16:39:35 <Arnaud> ericp: we had one that worked as LR1, changed for LL1
16:39:41 <AndyS> SPARQL allows multiple semis
16:39:56 <AndyS> therefore I think Turtle should.
16:40:01 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
16:40:38 <Arnaud> ericp: concerned about what it will do to people who write tools
16:41:03 <Arnaud> sandro: can we resolve on doing test cases for this?
16:41:56 <Arnaud> sandro: would like to have a resolution on what is allowed and not allowed, then see if we can get a grammar that matches it
16:42:18 <Arnaud> ericp: would rather try to figure out the grammar
16:42:36 <Arnaud> sandro: can you write test cases so I can test my implementation?
16:42:40 <AndyS> If it is LL(1) it is LALR(1) if the first part of the rule is clean (the trailing part is irrelevant)
16:42:40 <Arnaud> ericp: yes
16:43:08 <ericP> <a> <b> <c> ; ;
16:43:22 <ericP> <a> <b> <c> ; ; .
16:44:16 <PatH> wherever we are, I vote for it.
16:44:32 <Arnaud> ericp: will send mail to I18N giving a week for replying
16:44:35 <davidwood> q?
16:44:40 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:44:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, +31.20.598.aabb, yvesr, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, pchampin_, gkellogg, ericP, AndyS, markus, zwu2 (muted), ivan, +1.603.897.aadd, Sandro, PatH (muted)
16:44:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, PatH, Souri, ivan, zwu2, markus, Arnaud, AndyS, pchampin_, RRSAgent, Zakim, ericP, Guus, gkellogg, manu1, MacTed, davidwood, webr3, trackbot, yvesr, sandro,
16:44:43 <Zakim> ... manu, mischat
16:44:47 <Arnaud> ... if we figure out the grammar by next week we can then publish
16:44:49 <sandro> ACTION: sandro to produce an LALR grammar that supports "<a> <b> <c> ; ;" and "<a> <b> <c> ; ; ."
16:44:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-217 - Produce an LALR grammar that supports "<a> <b> <c> ; ;" and "<a> <b> <c> ; ; ." [on Sandro Hawke - due 2012-12-12].
16:45:04 <AndyS> Err - the submission was LALR(1)
16:45:37 <Arnaud> ericp: yes, but we changed it since then
16:45:53 <Arnaud> topic: JSON-LD
16:46:22 <markus> https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/157
16:46:31 <Arnaud> markus: most controversial is issue-157
16:46:36 <markus> http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/index.html#data-model
16:47:22 <Arnaud> markus: trying to reuse the same terminology but there still are some differences
16:47:29 <markus> http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/index.html#relationship-to-rdf
16:48:06 <Arnaud> markus: also blank nodes are allowed as graph names, which isn't allowed in RDF
16:48:25 <ericP> can a datatype be a bnode?
16:48:44 <Arnaud> markus: trying to address that with a note stating people shouldn't create such graphs
16:48:46 <PatH> eric: no.
16:48:59 <ericP> PatH, sorry, i meant in JSON-LD
16:49:09 <sandro> sandro: how about "it's not a JSON-LD document if it has a free-standing node"
16:49:11 <AndyS> can a graph name be a literal?
16:49:15 <PatH> Not inside a typed lieral, anyway.
16:49:30 <PatH> OK
16:49:44 <Zakim> -ericP
16:50:05 <Arnaud> sandro: why do you use SHOULD instead of MUST?
16:50:27 <Arnaud> markus: trying to remain permissive
16:50:51 <Arnaud> sandro: SHOULDs are trouble, and I see more value in aligning with RDF
16:51:07 <Arnaud> sandro: not a showstopper but I would vote no
16:51:23 <Arnaud> sandro: looks good otherwise
16:51:28 <davidwood> q?
16:51:37 <Arnaud> markus: other minor differences, like lists
16:51:38 <davidwood> q+ re the JSON-LD data model
16:51:53 <Arnaud> markus: in json-ld there are arrays
16:52:22 <Arnaud> markus: other issue is about graph vs dataset
16:52:25 <davidwood> ack davidwood
16:52:25 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to discuss the JSON-LD data model
16:52:30 <davidwood> "Summarized these differences mean that JSON-LD is capable of serializing any RDF graph or dataset and most, but not all, JSON-LD documents can be transformed to RDF. "
16:53:01 <Arnaud> davidwood: this statement means to me that there is still a significant difference despite the effort to minimize the diff
16:53:12 <Arnaud> davidwood: is that a fundamental issue?
16:53:33 <Arnaud> davidwood: or just syntactic?
16:53:37 <Arnaud> markus: not sure
16:54:12 <Arnaud> davidwood: if you state in the spec the difference is merely syntactic we don't have a problem
16:54:17 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
16:54:17 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
16:54:28 <PatH> q+
16:54:38 <PatH> Yup.
16:54:56 <Arnaud> markus: but I don't think we can just reuse the RDF data model, because of where we allow blank nodes
16:55:05 <sandro> davidwood: is there a reason you need to allow blank nodes there?
16:55:18 <sandro> gkellogg: it would be complicated to prevent
16:55:27 <sandro> davidwood: lots of RDF tools don't prevent it either.
16:56:31 <davidwood> ack PatH
16:56:35 <Arnaud> gkellogg: if we don't need to enforce this in the algos then I think we can do that
16:56:38 <sandro> I'm also happy with the algorithms allowing it.
16:58:30 <AndyS> RDF/XML does not allow bNodes as predicates ... easy to add to Turtle, RDF/XML less so.
16:59:05 <Arnaud> PatH: json-ld doesn't have the same limitations as RDF and it allows users to experiment, don't think we should discourage that
16:59:11 <manu> zakim, code?
16:59:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), manu
16:59:23 <Zakim> +??P26
16:59:27 <manu> zakim, I am ??P26
16:59:27 <Zakim> +manu; got it
16:59:41 <AndyS> q+
17:00:37 <Arnaud> sandro: could have a strict mode
17:00:48 <Arnaud> markus: that creates interoperability problems
17:00:49 <PatH> zakim, mute me
17:00:49 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
17:01:06 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:02:02 <Arnaud> andys: this isn't just about parsers, it also affects about data producers
17:02:10 <Arnaud> s/about//
17:02:28 <AndyS> So does this matter: receive JSON-LD -> publish Turtle -> someone else converts to JSON-LD
17:02:39 <Arnaud> davidwood: where does that this leave us?
17:02:53 <Arnaud> sandro: not happy but don't blame them for doing this
17:03:07 <Arnaud> ivan: I can live with it
17:03:24 <Arnaud> sandro: would like a procedure check, maybe consider that AT RISK
17:04:02 <Arnaud> davidwood: could certainly prompt the community for feedback on whether this is really a problem
17:05:00 <Arnaud> ivan: could say that the algos only work for generalized triples
17:05:17 <Arnaud> ... but ok with leaving it as is
17:05:23 <Arnaud> ... not a showstopper for me
17:05:29 <markus> https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/182
17:05:31 <Arnaud> markus: another thing is graph vs dataset
17:05:46 <markus> http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/index.html#relationship-to-rdf
17:05:54 <sandro> Essential -- is JSON restricted to RDF, or is it Generalized RDF Triples?      *shrug*      Either way is okay with me, but GRT will cause some big problems, I'm sure.
17:06:15 <Arnaud> markus: resolved it saying a json-ld doc can be used as a graph store
17:06:34 <Arnaud> ivan: how do I find out whether the doc I get from the web is a graph or dataset?
17:06:51 <Arnaud> markus: it's always a dataset with json-ld
17:07:04 <davidwood> q?
17:07:08 <PatH> I like that. Everything on the Web is a dataset. that makes perfect sense.
17:07:16 <Arnaud> ivan: whether it's in the default graph is up to the application
17:07:19 <Arnaud> markus: yes
17:07:23 <PatH> LOL
17:07:51 <sandro> issue-105?
17:07:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-105 -- Graphs, datasets, authoritative representations, and content negotiation -- open
17:07:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/105
17:08:34 <yvesr> PatH, but then we might need to group datasets together or track their provenance, and we end up with datasets of datasets :)
17:08:48 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
17:09:10 <Arnaud> sandro: I think proposed resolution would work, can we use the same thing for TRIG?
17:09:41 <Arnaud> gkellogg: I think the solution we came up with for json-ld should work generically
17:10:00 <Arnaud> markus: will send an email on that to the mailing list later
17:10:22 <Arnaud> sandro: I think there is an issue with that but will get it in email
17:10:28 <AndyS> TriG isn't a grammar superset of TTL so works less cleanly.
17:11:30 <Arnaud> markus: algos are still first in the spec but not as prominent anymore
17:11:39 <Arnaud> ivan: what about compliance section?
17:12:06 <Arnaud> markus: define two products: 1: compliant to algos, 2: compliant to algos and apis
17:13:07 <Arnaud> ivan: I think the approach to separate json-ld processor is fine
17:13:27 <Arnaud> ... I'm fine with the content of the document but not the title
17:13:44 <Arnaud> markus: I think that's something the wg can address
17:14:05 <Arnaud> ... any suggestions?
17:14:17 <Arnaud> ivan: needs alcohol for that :)
17:14:17 <PatH> I have to leave. Use it well.
17:14:22 <markus> https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/178
17:14:32 <Zakim> -PatH
17:15:20 <Arnaud> davidwood: any other business for today?
17:15:27 <Zakim> -ivan
17:15:28 <Arnaud> davidwood: meeting adjourned
17:15:29 <zwu2> bye
17:15:29 <Zakim> -gkellogg
17:15:32 <Zakim> -manu
17:15:33 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:15:33 <Zakim> -yvesr
17:15:34 <Zakim> -markus
17:15:34 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:15:34 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:15:35 <Zakim> -pchampin_
17:15:35 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:15:35 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:15:37 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aadd
17:15:37 <Zakim> -Arnaud
17:15:45 <AndyS> AndyS has left #rdf-wg
17:15:57 <manu> great work on the call today, markus! :)
17:16:12 <markus> thanks :-)
17:16:19 <manu> (as well as all of the editing work you've been doing - great job all around!) :)
17:16:43 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting
17:16:43 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:16:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.540.898.aaaa, +31.20.598.aabb, yvesr, Arnaud, pchampin_, gkellogg, davidwood, ericP, MacTed, AndyS, markus, zwu2, ivan, +1.603.897.aadd,
17:16:46 <Zakim> ... Sandro, PatH, manu
17:16:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:16:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
17:16:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:16:52 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
17:16:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: davidwood to arrange update of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview and http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open [1]
17:16:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-irc#T16-11-18
17:16:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: sandro to produce an LALR grammar that supports "<a> <b> <c> ; ;" and "<a> <b> <c> ; ; ." [2]
17:16:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-irc#T16-44-49
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