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15:53:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg 15:53:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/07-rdf-wg-irc 15:53:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 15:53:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394 15:53:35 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference 15:53:35 <trackbot> Date: 07 March 2012 15:53:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg 15:54:05 <gavinc> Zakim, this is 73394 15:54:05 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM 15:54:18 <gavinc> Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:54:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, +1.707.861.aaaa 15:54:32 <gavinc> Zakim, aaaa is me 15:54:32 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it 15:56:21 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P3 is me 15:56:21 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it 15:56:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg 15:57:08 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 15:57:08 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 15:57:09 <Zakim> +Ivan 15:58:16 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg 15:59:18 <Zakim> +pfps 16:00:11 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg 16:00:34 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has joined #rdf-wg 16:00:36 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 16:00:36 <pchampin_> pchampin_ has joined #rdf-wg 16:00:49 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 16:00:50 <MacTed> Zakim, mute m 16:00:51 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 16:00:51 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 16:00:59 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aabb 16:01:16 <Arnaud> zakim, aabb is me 16:01:16 <Zakim> +Arnaud; got it 16:01:33 <Zakim> +sandro 16:01:43 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg 16:01:57 <cgreer> cgreer has joined #rdf-wg 16:02:02 <Zakim> +Guus 16:02:04 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg 16:02:52 <Zakim> + +1.415.586.aacc 16:02:53 <Zakim> + +1.707.318.aadd 16:02:54 <Zakim> +??P15 16:03:04 <cgreer> zakim,aadd is me 16:03:04 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it 16:03:12 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg 16:04:18 <Zakim> +??P22 16:04:22 <AndyS> zakim, ??P22 is me 16:04:22 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 16:04:30 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg 16:04:36 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aaee 16:04:55 <AlexHall> zakim, aaee is me 16:04:55 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it 16:05:08 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg 16:05:09 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg 16:05:15 <Guus> zakim, who is here? 16:05:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, gavinc, Ivan, pfps, MacTed (muted), Arnaud (muted), sandro, Guus, cgreer, JeremyCarroll (muted), pchampin, AndyS, AlexHall 16:05:15 <zwu2> zakim, code? 16:05:17 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:firstname.lastname@example.org), zwu2 16:05:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see FabGandon, zwu2, AlexHall, AZ, pchampin, cgreer, Guus, JeremyCarroll, Arnaud, pfps, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, gavinc, mischat, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, SteveH, AndyS1, ivan, 16:05:19 <Zakim> ... trackbot, davidwood, NickH, mdmdm, yvesr, manu, manu1, sandro, ericP 16:05:52 <pchampin> ok 16:06:07 <Zakim> +davidwood 16:06:08 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaff 16:06:16 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaff is me 16:06:16 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it 16:06:20 <zwu2> zakim, mute me 16:06:20 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted 16:06:39 <Zakim> +[Sophia] 16:06:50 <FabGandon> Zakim, Sophia is me. 16:06:50 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it 16:07:24 <pchampin> topic: admin 16:07:35 <pchampin> subtopic: last week's minute approval 16:07:42 <pchampin> guus: any objection? 16:07:44 <davidwood> scribenick: pchampin 16:07:56 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-29 16:08:05 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aagg 16:08:06 <Zakim> +LeeF 16:08:25 <Zakim> + +1.646.434.aahh 16:08:33 <pchampin> guus: no objection, approved 16:08:43 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg 16:09:03 <AZ> zakim, aahh is me 16:09:03 <Zakim> +AZ; got it 16:09:04 <pchampin> subtopic: open action review 16:09:54 <pchampin> antoine: re ACTION-149, I sent an email about it 16:10:16 <pchampin> guus: marking it as done 16:10:33 <pchampin> ... any progress to report on other actions? 16:10:44 <pchampin> sandro: not on mine, sorry 16:10:53 <FabGandon> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-xml/index.html# 16:11:06 <AZ> email of my action http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Mar/0038.html 16:11:11 <pchampin> fabien: the URI above is the current version of the RDF/XML spec 16:11:27 <pchampin> ... I ported it to respec 16:11:37 <Zakim> +EricP 16:12:19 <pchampin> ... how can I make sure I don't forget any modification that ought to be done? 16:12:50 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/errata#rdf-syntax-grammar errata 16:13:28 <pchampin> ivan: above is the URL of an errata document I collected over the years 16:13:59 <pchampin> guus: this is also referred by ISSUE-6 16:14:10 <pchampin> subtopic: light-saving time 16:14:28 <pchampin> guus: for the following two weeks, the telecons will be one hour sooner in Europe, 16:14:47 <pchampin> ... due to earlier light-saving time in the US 16:15:34 <pchampin> subtopic: FTF3 16:15:42 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/ 29 October - 2 November 2012 Lyon, France 16:16:10 <gavinc> Oh lovely, over halloweenen again? 16:16:22 <davidwood> ISWC in Boston, 11-15 Nov. 16:16:28 <sandro> http://iswc2012.semanticweb.org/ November 11-15 Boston, USA 16:16:37 <pchampin> ivan: TPAC begins 2 weeks earlier than ISWC, should not clash 16:16:47 <gavinc> Geee, another F2F in Europe? 16:17:05 <davidwood> You didn't need to go last time :) 16:17:10 <pchampin> guus: should we organise FTF3 during TPAC? 16:17:21 <AndyS> Last time it was officially in Boston. 16:17:33 <pchampin> sandro: this is usually a good thing to have a FTF during TPAC 16:17:40 <AndyS> ... just larger in London :-) 16:17:52 <pchampin> ivan: we could convince the Provenance WG to meet with us, which would also be a good thing 16:19:18 <pchampin> david: are we sure we do not want to meet before november? 16:20:53 <pchampin> ... I would propose to have a task-force meeting in the meantime in Boston to make a decision about the Graph question 16:21:10 <pchampin> ivan: would exclude a lot of people, though, as finding a budget for a TF meeting would be harder 16:21:52 <sandro> zakim, who is talking? 16:22:03 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Arnaud (10%), Guus (24%), davidwood (51%), Ivan (18%) 16:22:04 <pchampin> david: even a few people can make good progress 16:22:09 <pchampin> ... and then make a proposal to the WG 16:23:18 <MacTed> I'm sitting in noisy construction environment today ... but I agree with David's informal task force idea 16:23:37 <MacTed> the whiteboard scribbling after adjournment was valuable time 16:23:43 <gavinc> I agree with informal/formal task force idea 16:24:34 <davidwood> WWW2012 http://www2012.wwwconference.org/ 16-20 April in Lyon 16:25:17 <pchampin> guus: the current proposition is to hold FTF3 at TPAC, unless someone objects in the following week 16:25:23 <AndyS> Who wants to be in the task force? 16:25:52 <pchampin> arnaud: what happened to the proposal to have FTF3 in Sophia after WWW? 16:25:58 <pchampin> guus: it seems to be too early 16:26:06 <ericP> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes 16:26:08 <ericP> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapesB 16:26:11 <pchampin> topic: Tutle 16:26:33 <pchampin> eric: I wrote two versions (URIs above) 16:27:05 <pchampin> ... the first one is what was there before 16:27:27 <pchampin> ... the second one defines different kind of escape sequences, then specifies which is usable where 16:27:52 <pchampin> ... the second answers to Andy's proposal, but I prefer the first one 16:27:59 <pchampin> andy: I can live with the first one 16:28:03 <MacTed> I actually find B much clearer... 16:28:08 <sandro> I like B too 16:28:08 <ericP> +1 16:29:01 <ivan> q+ 16:29:19 <Guus> ack ivan 16:29:24 <MacTed> +1 ivan & sandro 16:29:36 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 16:29:36 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 16:29:54 <pchampin> sandro: I prefer the 2nd one; with the first one, I lose track 16:30:00 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 16:30:00 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 16:30:13 <pchampin> ivan: agree with sandro 16:30:19 <pchampin> MacTed: agree with sandro 16:30:34 <pchampin> guus: eric, would you be happy with the 2nd option? 16:30:36 <pchampin> eric: yes 16:31:48 <ivan> PROPOSED: take the 'B' version to solve issue-67 16:31:50 <Guus> ISSUE 67 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/67 16:31:58 <gavinc> ISSUE-74? 16:31:58 <trackbot> ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open 16:31:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/74 16:32:53 <pchampin> gavin: I think that this covers ISSUE-74 as well (see above) 16:32:56 <ivan> +1 16:33:04 <pchampin> ivan: let's first solve ISSUE-67 16:33:09 <pchampin> pchampin: +1 16:33:15 <MacTed> +1 16:33:21 <ivan> RESOLVED: take the 'B' version to solve issue-67 16:33:23 <AndyS> +1 16:33:25 <zwu2> +1 16:33:25 <yvesr> +1 16:34:46 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/3 16:35:58 <pchampin> guus: as we just solved ISSUE-67, there are 3 issues left regarding Turtle: ISSUE-4, ISSUE-73, ISSUE-74 16:36:08 <davidwood> q+ to discuss references to ISSUE-4 in the Turtle draft 16:36:28 <pchampin> ISSUE-4? 16:36:28 <trackbot> ISSUE-4 -- Do we depecate N-Triples and use Turtle instead? -- open 16:36:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/4 16:37:23 <pchampin> gavin: we considered defining N-Triples inside the Turtle document, but this was never resolved 16:37:56 <pchampin> ... see now section 11 in the Turtle document 16:38:09 <pchampin> david: I think there is a conflation of what issue 4 means 16:38:21 <pchampin> ... deprecating is not the same as folding it in the Turtle document 16:38:38 <zwu2> N-TRIPLES are used in production, it is not a good idea to deprecate it 16:38:38 <pchampin> ... those are two different questions 16:38:43 <ivan> q+ 16:38:47 <ivan> ack davidwood 16:38:48 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to discuss references to ISSUE-4 in the Turtle draft 16:39:03 <pchampin> ... my answers would be "no" to deprecation, and "yes" to including it 16:39:09 <AndyS> (1) Keep N-triples (2) one doc or two - don't care. 16:40:13 <zwu2> q+ 16:40:18 <ivan> q- 16:40:29 <Souri> Same as Andy: (1) Keep N-triples (2) one doc or two - don't care. 16:41:26 <pchampin> guus: wasn't there an objection from Oracle about merging N-Triple with Turtle, regarding UTF-8? 16:41:33 <pchampin> david: I think we had a resolution about it 16:41:51 <pchampin> ... btw, it would be good to have a place containing all the resolutions of the group 16:41:57 <pchampin> q+ 16:42:08 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me 16:42:08 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted 16:42:44 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-31 16:42:54 <davidwood> Resolutions 16:42:54 <davidwood> 1. Create a UTF version of ntriples in the Turtle REC, while making clear that the ASCII version of ntriples is still acceptable for use. ASCII ntriples would continue to live in the test cases document. File extensions and media types should be in conformance to the proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0170.html http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-31#resolution_1 16:44:34 <AndyS> Names : N-triples, N-triples-ascii (on the wire:: application/n-triples;charset=ascii) 16:44:58 <pchampin> gavin: but then, what will we call N-Triples? 16:45:02 <sandro> +1 Andy 16:45:09 <JeremyCarroll> q+ 16:45:17 <zwu2> q- 16:45:24 <pchampin> ... this is why the Turtle specs currently says "N prime" (which is a terrible name= 16:45:28 <pchampin> s/name=/name)/ 16:45:31 <pchampin> q- 16:45:33 <sandro> Same-syntax-different-charset ? 16:46:36 <pchampin> jeremy: there is nothing wrong in calling them both N-Triples, as long as content-negociation correctly sorts it out 16:46:36 <davidwood> Interesting point, JeremyCarroll 16:46:39 <ivan> q+ 16:46:40 <pchampin> q+ 16:46:47 <ivan> ack JeremyCarroll 16:46:51 <AndyS> +1 to Jeremy 16:46:56 <gavinc> +1 16:48:00 <AndyS> q+ 16:48:03 <pchampin> ivan: we are forced to have chaset=utf-8 in the Turtle-UTF8 media type, because the default encoding for text/* media types is ASCII 16:48:11 <ivan> ack ivan 16:48:13 <Guus> ack ivan 16:48:22 <Guus> ack pchampin 16:49:09 <Guus> ack AndyS 16:49:12 <AndyS> ack me 16:49:52 <gavinc> Current document, text/turtle, text/ntriples+turtle 16:49:59 <pchampin> pchampin: agree with Jeremy and Ivan; anyway, the media-types have to be different (as the media-type for N-triples-ascii is text/plain, historically) 16:50:21 <pchampin> andy: N-triples is hardly human readable, anyway 16:51:52 <gavinc> PREPOSAL N-Triple has content type 'application/ntriples' and uses the content type paramater charset with allowed values of utf-8 or ascii 16:52:11 <JeremyCarroll> +1 16:52:18 <gavinc> +1 16:52:19 <JeremyCarroll> s/PREPOSAL/PROPOSAL/ 16:52:22 <JeremyCarroll> :) 16:52:57 <gavinc> s/paramater/parameter 16:53:23 <davidwood> s/paramater/parameter/ 16:53:26 <pchampin> sandro: you can't say that n-triple is so unreadable that it does not belong to the text/* hierarchy 16:53:57 <ivan> q+ 16:54:13 <pchampin> q+ 16:54:23 <Guus> ack ivan 16:54:59 <davidwood> +1 to Ivan. Displaying text/* in browsers is helpful. 16:55:12 <pchampin> ivan: for me, the fact that it belongs to the text/* hierarchy means that browsers can display the content without any additional application, contrarily to application/* content-types 16:55:20 <pchampin> pchampin: +1 to Ivan 16:55:23 <Guus> ack pchampin 16:55:30 <sandro> +1 text/* means I can use emacs on it. 16:55:33 <pchampin> jeremy: I think I disagree 16:55:43 <AndyS> text/html is not displayed as source 16:55:48 <gavinc> application/xml is editable in emacs 16:56:01 <AZ_> AZ_ has joined #rdf-wg 16:56:05 <pchampin> ... think of XML; displaying the angle-brackets is not the best way to display it 16:56:06 <AndyS> Let's see what else is in text/* 16:56:25 <davidwood> JeremyCarroll, if we were to define a Content-Type for HTML today, I would argue for application/html 16:56:42 <davidwood> …for the reasons you stated. 16:57:11 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to summarize media type proposal with respect to turtle as well 16:57:13 <zwu2> q+ 16:57:24 <pchampin> pchampin: no strong opinion about text vs. application 16:57:52 <pchampin> ... but for the moment the media type for n-triples is text/plain 16:57:59 <pchampin> ... would Oracle agree to change that? 16:58:40 <gavinc> +q 16:58:45 <Souri> +1 to Zhe's -1 16:58:49 <Guus> ack zwu 16:58:55 <AndyS> Surely, if "it" is served as text/plain it's ASCII as currently done 16:59:35 <pchampin> zwu: for us, N-Triple is in production, and should not change (neither charset not content-type) 17:00:38 <MacTed> N-Triples-ASCII is same as N-Triples (historic); is subset of N-Triples-UTF8 17:00:44 <JeremyCarroll> ack me 17:00:44 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to summarize media type proposal with respect to turtle as well 17:00:56 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll 17:01:05 <Guus> ack gavinc 17:01:21 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll: with Gavin's proposal various documents have mutliple legal mimetypes 17:01:32 <AndyS> q+ to ask we spend some time on next steps to keep things moving over the week. 17:01:45 <Souri> q+ 17:02:00 <pchampin> gavin: N-Triple was explicitly not intended to become a standard format 17:02:04 <AndyS> ack me 17:02:04 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask we spend some time on next steps to keep things moving over the week. 17:02:05 <zwu2> q+ 17:02:06 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll: e.g. an ascii ntriples doc can be served as text/plain applicaiton/ntriples, ascii; alpplicaiton/ntriples utf8; text/turtle utf8 17:02:19 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to add to gavin's point 17:02:44 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: strong disagreement with Souri 17:02:49 <pfps> +1 to gavin - anyone can object to anything, and this is a serious bar to change, but certainly not an absolute bar 17:03:05 <ericP> q? 17:03:11 <Souri> q- 17:03:21 <Guus> ack zwu 17:03:23 <pchampin> souri: extending n-triple it is ok as soon as it maintaisn backward compatibility 17:03:35 <ericP> q+ to ask about rev'ing tools vs. rev'ing written data 17:04:12 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll 17:04:12 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to add to gavin's point 17:04:16 <JeremyCarroll> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#ntriples 17:04:49 <JeremyCarroll> NOTE : N-Triples is an RDF syntax for expressing RDF test cases and defining the correspondence between RDF/XML and the RDF abstract syntax. RDF/XML [RDF-SYNTAX] is the recommended syntax for applications to exchange RDF information. 17:05:52 <zwu2> q+ 17:06:04 <pchampin> q+ 17:06:44 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 17:06:44 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 17:07:38 <Souri> q+ 17:07:56 <pfps> Further, there has been no previous attempt (that I am aware of) to promote n-triples to an interchange syntax. 17:08:02 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 17:08:02 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 17:08:10 <pchampin> jeremy: zwu and souri can not oppose to us a language that they used in a way that was explicitly discouraged by the spec 17:08:20 <sandro> ted: The retrofit is the responsibility of the implementor who did not read the standard. 17:08:34 <pchampin> zwu: but now, the market reality is here, we should take it into account 17:08:58 <pchampin> q? 17:09:20 <Guus> ack EricP 17:09:20 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask about rev'ing tools vs. rev'ing written data 17:09:50 <gavinc> N-Triples is excellent, lets make it a standard! 17:09:53 <davidwood> From the charter: "The mission of the RDF Working Group, part of the Semantic Web Activity, is to update the 2004 version of the Resource Description Framework (RDF) Recommendation. The scope of work is to extend RDF to include some of the features that the community has identified as both desirable and important for interoperability based on experience with the 2004 version of the standard, but *without having a negative effect on existing deployment effort 17:09:57 <Souri> q- 17:10:01 <davidwood> Unfortunate or not 17:10:21 <AndyS> I have not seen any proposal that invalidates existing N-triples data. 17:10:29 <JeremyCarroll> +1 to AndyS 17:11:02 <davidwood> Well, yes, but the Content-Type would still be an issue beyond the data. 17:11:09 <sandro> Still... what if there is old SOFTWARE ? *it* will break on seeing the new N-Triples data. 17:11:18 <gavinc> Yes. 17:11:20 <pchampin> gavin: anything considered to be n-triples is acceptable by the Turtle grammar 17:11:26 <JeremyCarroll> old software will break on *any* change 17:11:33 <ericP> sandro, how's http://220.127.116.11/rdf/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes look to you? 17:11:39 <Guus> ack pchampin 17:11:45 <Guus> ack zwu 17:11:51 <pchampin> q- 17:13:57 <pchampin> guus: could eric come up with a proposal for ISSUE-73 and ISSUE-74 17:14:04 <pchampin> ISSUE-73? 17:14:04 <trackbot> ISSUE-73 -- IRI_REF vs. IRIref -- open 17:14:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/73 17:14:07 <pchampin> ISSUE-74? 17:14:07 <trackbot> ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open 17:14:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/74 17:14:12 <ericP> http://18.104.22.168/rdf/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes 17:14:20 <sandro> ericP, I'm pretty happy with the table. 17:15:04 <AndyS> I'm happy to change the SPARQL names. 17:15:13 <AndyS> (likely grammar update anyway) 17:16:00 <pchampin> eric: issue-73 should be solved consistently in Turtle and SPARQL 17:16:49 <pchampin> guus: volunteers for reviewing the draft? 17:16:53 <pchampin> andy: I volunteer 17:17:33 <pchampin> guus: will differ the choice of a 2nd volunteer until next week 17:17:38 <Zakim> -Ivan 17:17:39 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll 17:17:40 <Zakim> -FabGandon 17:17:40 <AZ_> bye 17:17:43 <Zakim> -davidwood 17:17:45 <Zakim> -AZ 17:17:46 <Zakim> -cgreer 17:17:48 <Zakim> -zwu2 17:17:49 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aagg 17:17:50 <Zakim> -pfps 17:17:51 <Zakim> -AlexHall 17:17:53 <Zakim> -Arnaud 17:17:54 <pchampin> ADJOURNED 17:17:55 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg 17:17:56 <Zakim> -yvesr 17:17:58 <Zakim> -MacTed 17:19:06 <gavinc> Zakim, who is on the phone? 17:19:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, sandro, Guus, pchampin, AndyS, LeeF, EricP 17:19:18 <Guus> :-) 17:20:30 <Zakim> -sandro 17:20:42 <Zakim> -Guus # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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