Chatlog 2011-12-21

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16:02:08 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:02:08 <trackbot> Date: 21 December 2011
16:02:13 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:13 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS
16:02:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see Scott_Bauer, cygri, pfps, AndyS, AZ, pchampin, JeremyCarroll, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, gavinc, Guus, MacTed, mischat, manu, trackbot, davidwood, mdmdm, manu1, NickH,
16:02:15 <gavinc> zakim, this is 73394
16:02:17 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP
16:02:17 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
16:02:41 <gavinc> there we go!
16:02:51 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
16:02:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +1.540.898.aabb, [IPcaller], +1.707.861.aacc, +1.415.586.aadd, ??P9, ??P11
16:02:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see Scott_Bauer, cygri, pfps, AndyS, AZ, pchampin, JeremyCarroll, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, gavinc, Guus, MacTed, mischat, manu, trackbot, davidwood, mdmdm, manu1, NickH,
16:02:55 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP
16:02:56 <AndyS> scribe: AndyS
16:03:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +1.540.898.aabb, AndyS, gavinc, JeremyCarroll, ??P9, ??P11, MacTed (muted), cygri
16:03:37 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS
16:04:17 <AndyS> topic: Admin
16:05:42 <AndyS> david: admin section then discussion of the path forward for [graph]
16:05:46 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 14 Dec telecon:
16:05:46 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-12-14
16:05:51 <Guus> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +1.540.898.aabb, AndyS, gavinc (muted), JeremyCarroll (muted), yvesr, AZ, MacTed (muted), cygri, Scott_Bauer, AlexHall
16:06:10 <davidwood> zakim, aabb is me
16:06:10 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
16:06:28 <AndyS> topic: Action item review
16:06:35 <AndyS> No pending action items
16:06:45 <AndyS> David: 13 open actions
16:07:06 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaff
16:07:07 <danbri> danbri has joined #rdf-wg
16:07:13 <pchampin> zakim, aaff is me
16:07:13 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
16:07:16 <pchampin> zakim, mute me
16:07:16 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted
16:08:15 <gavinc> Zakim, unmute me
16:08:15 <Zakim> gavinc should no longer be muted
16:09:07 <AndyS> david: action 117 - jeremy ...
16:09:13 <AndyS> ... duration datatypes
16:09:27 <AndyS> jeremy: will do action
16:09:37 <AndyS> ... action 118 similar
16:10:09 <AndyS> david: gavin - action on formatted text literals
16:10:14 <cygri> q+
16:10:55 <AndyS> ack cygri
16:11:08 <AndyS> cygri: pls expand on action 124
16:11:28 <AndyS> gavin: it's because of xml literal downplayed ... what about formatted text?
16:11:55 <AndyS> topic: next meeting
16:12:01 <AndyS> Jan 4
16:12:07 <AndyS> topic: path forward
16:12:45 <AndyS> david: Named graphs has been a major matter for the WG ... but also now see there are concerns about how people view the web
16:13:09 <AndyS> ... lot of perspectives in WG and these all be considered valid.
16:13:34 <AndyS> ... new uses of RDF (Linked Data Ent Workshop)
16:13:50 <AndyS> ... not just for one thing
16:14:09 <AndyS> ... pls keep in mind that other people's perspective are valid
16:14:42 <AndyS> ... WG needs to find a compromiose
16:15:00 <AndyS> ... sandros has suggested we focus on the use cases
16:15:13 <AndyS> ... starting with Richard
16:15:31 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
16:15:44 <PatH> Sorry Im late, having a problem phoning in.
16:16:22 <AndyS> ... email dec 21 at 13:43 UTC (??)
16:16:42 <AndyS> ... Richard, where is the key issues here?
16:17:20 <AndyS> sandro: for now, just think about UC, not analysis one UC until several looked at
16:17:35 <AndyS> ... and we may see the common elements
16:18:01 <AndyS> david: need to look sufficiently deeply
16:18:19 <Zakim> +PatH
16:18:22 <Zakim> -cygri
16:18:49 <AndyS> cygri: this UC was about the exchange of ... really 2 UC ... and a Higgs boson was seen
16:20:25 <AndyS> sandro: what are other people hoping to get out of NG
16:20:44 <Guus> q+ to suggest BBC one to take on, if it takes some time for Richard to come back
16:20:55 <AndyS> david: Jeremy suggested a text case approach
16:21:02 <PatH> maybe if i leave...?
16:21:05 <AndyS> ... will get to that on the hour
16:21:30 <PatH> pchampi, not knowingly.
16:21:51 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has joined #rdf-wg
16:23:01 <AndyS> Jeremy: previously, have found that test cases stress the common ground, not the conceptualisms around it
16:23:10 <PatH> +1 to jeremy
16:23:16 <Guus> +1
16:23:17 <PatH> zakim, mute me
16:23:17 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
16:23:42 <Zakim> +??P8
16:23:50 <cygri> zakim, ??P8 is me
16:23:50 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:23:58 <AndyS> ... I suggested on test case.  We can formally resolve on that then move to next test case.  100 small steps.
16:24:10 <AndyS> (link please)
16:24:13 <PatH> richard is back :-)
16:24:38 <Guus> +1 to the ill-formedness of that test case
16:24:53 <gavinc> { ( {a:b c:d e:f}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ), ( {}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ) }
16:25:16 <Guus> q+ to syggest to do the strawpoll first
16:25:38 <JeremyCarroll> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Dec/0123.html
16:25:41 <davidwood> ack Guus
16:25:41 <Zakim> Guus, you wanted to suggest BBC one to take on, if it takes some time for Richard to come back and to syggest to do the strawpoll first
16:26:03 <AndyS> q+
16:26:04 <gavinc> STRAWPOLL: RDF 1.1 Recommendation will not recommend the use  { ( {a:b c:d e:f}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ), ( {}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ) }
16:26:42 <AndyS> q+ to ask if this is syntax or abstract data model?
16:26:53 <davidwood> ack AndyS
16:26:53 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask if this is syntax or abstract data model?
16:27:28 <AndyS> AndyS: Is this syntax?
16:27:33 <AndyS> Jeremy: Yes.
16:27:38 <PatH> lets stick to abstract model first.
16:27:40 <Guus> it is not TriG syntax, btw
16:27:59 <pfps> q+
16:28:06 <davidwood> q?
16:28:13 <davidwood> ack pfps
16:28:25 <AndyS> pfps: is this an RDF dataset?
16:28:46 <Zakim> +Eric
16:28:49 <AndyS> jeremy: syntax wrong -it is an RDF dataset that has a repeated label on two graphs
16:29:21 <cygri> RDF Dataset definition includes: "Graph names are unique within an RDF dataset."
16:29:31 <AndyS> pfps: RDF dataset has a label only once.
16:29:36 <cygri> so, that's a negative test case.
16:30:28 <gavinc> https://gist.github.com/1506664
16:30:31 <davidwood> q?
16:30:34 <gavinc> Not A Dataset https://gist.github.com/1506664
16:30:39 <PatH> Jeremy is trying to locate the shore by first putting a pole clearly in the water.
16:31:05 <AndyS> david: Negative test, concept, not synatx, 
16:31:18 <JeremyCarroll> STRAWPOLL: RDF 1.1 Recommendation will not recommend the use { ( {a:b c:d e:f}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ), ( {}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ) }
16:31:33 <cygri> +1
16:31:35 <yvesr> +1
16:31:40 <MacTed> (will not recommend?  or will disrecommend?)
16:31:41 <JeremyCarroll> +1
16:31:41 <Guus> +1
16:31:44 <davidwood> +1
16:31:46 <pchampin> +1
16:31:52 <gavinc> +1
16:31:53 <davidwood> Sandro: +1
16:31:53 <AZ> +1
16:31:53 <AndyS> +1
16:31:55 <Guus> we can formulate this stronger, I think
16:31:56 <ericP> +1
16:31:56 <pfps> +1 to what david is saying, not to the strawpoll per se
16:32:00 <MacTed> +1 for not recommending ... but I think that's not the right expression
16:32:07 <AlexHall> +1
16:33:03 <pfps> STRAWPOLL:  In an RDF dataset, there must be a function (and not a general relation) from "tags" to graphs
16:33:09 <ericP> q?
16:33:16 <AndyS> guus: test suite
16:33:29 <ericP> i think a test suite would be bound to a serialization
16:33:33 <AndyS> ... we need a owner/manager
16:33:44 <AndyS> q+
16:34:18 <AndyS> david: if we can't get a test case, keep proposal and not loose it
16:34:21 <gavinc> PROPOSAL : In a TriG document a graph IRI must not be used to label more then one graph.
16:34:51 <AndyS> q-
16:34:57 <Guus> proposal to use TriG as test-suite serialization language
16:35:00 <PatH> English version: the WG will not recommend any construction in which two different graphs are assigned the same label.
16:35:26 <PatH> zakim, unmute me.
16:35:26 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
16:35:30 <AndyS> why not have "tests" being text files for now, pending syntax?
16:35:34 <ericP> a SPARQL-style test suite of a set of a mapping of turtle docs to unique graph names (and default graph) would capture this test without steaking out an interpretation of TriG
16:35:56 <davidwood> PROPOSAL : In a TriG document or similar syntax constituting an RDF dataset, a graph IRI must not be used to label more then one graph.
16:36:02 <AndyS> +1 to ericP as SPARQL tests can write these down
16:36:27 <cygri> q+
16:36:28 <PatH> steaking out, nice. we can try roasting out as well.
16:36:34 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:36:46 <PatH> sounds much better
16:36:56 <PatH> zakim, mute me.
16:36:56 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
16:37:02 <AndyS> cygri: option for different relationships of a "name" and a graph
16:37:17 <AndyS> ... may or may not be mixed in an RDF dataset
16:37:46 <AndyS> ... ??allow the name multiple times for different relationships
16:38:01 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to speak against Richard
16:38:10 <gavinc> <mailto:ivan@w3.org> <relation1> {
16:38:11 <gavinc> 	<a> <b> <c> .
16:38:13 <gavinc> }
16:38:14 <gavinc> <mailto:ivan@w3.org> <relation2> {
16:38:16 <gavinc> 	
16:38:17 <gavinc> }
16:38:23 <AndyS> <labeluri> :p1 {} . <labeluri> :p2 {}
16:38:25 <ericP> <G1> :logSemantics { <s1> <p1> <o1> } ; :signs { <s2> <p2> <o2> }
16:38:39 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
16:38:39 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to speak against Richard
16:38:47 <MacTed> tweaked PROPOSAL : Within a single RDF dataset, whether expressed by a TriG document or any other syntax, a single graph IRI (1) MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph; (2) MAY ONLY be used to label one graph.
16:38:58 <Zakim> -cygri
16:39:03 <AndyS> Jeremy: we can revise if we decide that. Test case is more concrete probe.  Not too many choices.
16:39:15 <Zakim> +??P8
16:39:18 <cygri> zakim, ??P8 is me
16:39:18 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:39:18 <PatH> i see what richard is saying, but agree with jeremy
16:39:55 <PatH> any decision will rule out some possibilities.
16:40:14 <MacTed> intentionally so
16:40:22 <PatH> are they different?
16:41:06 <Guus> PROPOSAL Within a single RDF dataset MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph
16:41:07 <davidwood> PROPOSAL : Within a single RDF dataset, regardless of syntax, a single graph IRI (1) MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph; (2) MAY ONLY be used to label one graph.
16:41:19 <PatH> q+
16:41:20 <MacTed> (1) and (2) are intentionally redundant.  the first conforms more to RFC grammar; the second is more clear to many readers.
16:41:27 <AndyS> Jeremy: multiple labelled blocks is still one graph is a possibility
16:41:27 <ericP> PROPOSAL : Within a single RDF dataset, regardless of syntax, a single graph IRI (1) MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph
16:41:31 <davidwood> ack PatH
16:41:34 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
16:41:34 <Zakim> PatH was not muted, PatH
16:42:19 <AndyS> PatH: one reason for not doing this is where identity is expensive
16:42:20 <cygri> we just need to detect identity of the URIs, not of the graphs
16:42:36 <PatH> zakim, mute me
16:42:36 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
16:42:57 <davidwood> PROPOSAL : Within a single RDF dataset, regardless of syntax, a single graph IRI MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph
16:43:06 <ericP> +1
16:43:06 <MacTed> +1
16:43:07 <pfps> +1
16:43:10 <davidwood> Sandro: +1
16:43:11 <Guus> +1
16:43:11 <davidwood> +1
16:43:12 <PatH> +1
16:43:12 <gavinc> +1
16:43:15 <cygri> +1
16:43:15 <AZ> +1
16:43:15 <AlexHall> +1
16:43:18 <pchampin> +1
16:43:22 <yvesr> +1
16:43:22 <AndyS> +1
16:43:57 <AndyS> RESOLVED: Within a single RDF dataset, regardless of syntax, a single graph IRI MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph
16:44:00 <PatH> cygri, yes of course. sorry.
16:44:24 <AndyS> david: The use case ... richard
16:44:41 <AndyS> cygri: UC about web crawling and crawling RDF data
16:45:02 <AndyS> ... at the time of crawl may not know the use to be made of the data
16:45:12 <AndyS> ... i.e. crawler grabs stuff
16:45:24 <AndyS> ... so keep things in separate graphs
16:45:29 <AndyS> ... keep source info
16:46:22 <AndyS> ... at this stage, data considered is by source only, nothing outside
16:46:28 <Guus> remark about the resolution:  you can interpret it as an implicit resolution that graph names must be IRIs. Should we make this explicit?
16:46:40 <AndyS> ... important - store this in a SPARQL store for query using GRAPH
16:47:15 <AndyS> ... important - crawls can be exchanged (practical reasons) - nquads where 4th slot is the source
16:47:22 <AndyS> ... source URL
16:47:49 <AndyS> david: Are you using the source URL as the graph URI?
16:47:59 <davidwood> q?
16:48:31 <AndyS> cygri: In several examples, inc billion triples dump, and Sindice, then source URL is 4th slot in the dump
16:48:43 <AndyS> ... makes it easy to understand
16:49:17 <AndyS> sandro: similar : tabulator and ?? but they use tag as a retriveal event
16:49:35 <AndyS> ... if higher costs are acceptable
16:49:47 <PatH> do these systems use RDF metadata in which the graph identifiers are used to identify the graphs?
16:50:20 <cygri> q+ to answer pat
16:50:30 <AndyS> david: how does this inform you?
16:51:25 <AndyS> cygri: to PatH: they refer to the source, not the graph 
16:51:26 <PatH> great. 
16:51:59 <AndyS> cygri: does not make much sense about the merge of all the graphs
16:52:34 <AndyS> ... or consistency.  It data management to keep them separate.  May subset and do other stuff later.
16:52:35 <PatH> that really is very nice, and allows an elegant semantic 'gloss' to account for this being conformant.
16:53:08 <AndyS> ... semantics is "not good" lots of things wrong and need to be sorted out by the app on top later
16:53:23 <AndyS> ... we want a way to split the triples by source
16:53:26 <PatH> q+
16:53:35 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
16:53:35 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
16:53:54 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:53:54 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to answer pat
16:54:06 <davidwood> ack PatH
16:54:40 <Zakim> -cygri
16:54:40 <AndyS> PatH: The sticking point for me has been the way URIs are used in difefrent ways - now clear in Richards UC that this is not the case
16:54:55 <Zakim> +??P8
16:55:00 <cygri> zakim, ??P8 is me
16:55:00 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:55:01 <ericP> AggregateDB GETs <http://a.example/doc1.ttl> at with headers <H>, could create any of these DBs:
16:55:04 <ericP>   snapshot: <http://a.example/doc1.ttl>: { <s1> <p1> <o1> }
16:55:07 <ericP>   with-metadata: default graph: { <http://a.example/doc1.ttl> http:headers <H> }
16:55:09 <AndyS> ... so we can add metadata etc 
16:55:09 <ericP>                  <http://a.example/doc1.ttl>: { <s1> <p1> <o1> }
16:55:12 <ericP>   with history: default graph: { </2011-12-21T11:50/http://a.example/doc1.ttl> http:resource <http://a.example/doc1.ttl> ; http:headers <H> }
16:55:15 <ericP>                 </2011-12-21T11:50/http://a.example/doc1.ttl>: { <s1> <p1> <o1> }
16:55:19 <ericP> does that capture likely designs?
16:55:28 <AndyS> s/semantics/data/
16:55:49 <AndyS> PatH: Will write up my point.
16:56:27 <PatH> did we lose richard again?
16:56:34 <ericP> q+
16:56:42 <davidwood> zakim, who is talking?
16:56:42 <AndyS> scribe+
16:56:54 <Zakim> davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (64%), Eric (14%)
16:57:11 <PatH> zakim, mute me
16:57:11 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
16:57:23 <MacTed> scribe was breaking up
16:57:30 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:57:42 <AndyS> Oh dear
16:58:33 <PatH> scrumpy rules.
16:58:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:58:46 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:58:46 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
16:58:48 <PatH> noise...
16:58:54 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute AndyS
16:58:54 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted
16:59:30 <AndyS> ericP: try to cover 3 cases
16:59:40 <AndyS> ... stores in RDF DB 
16:59:49 <AndyS> ... store in doc 1 and add header to dft graph
16:59:55 <davidwood> EricP: See his syntax above, where someone GETs graphs.
17:00:11 <cygri> it covers mine
17:00:12 <AndyS> ... store in doc1 in an dft doc nfo on this
17:00:25 <AndyS> I am scribing
17:00:40 <PatH> it covers enough to give rise to much discussion...
17:01:00 <AndyS> sandro (is unclear to the scribe)
17:01:15 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:01:36 <PatH> sandro: may be other cases.
17:01:42 <davidwood> EricP has covered the two variants of the use case as I have seen them.
17:01:55 <Zakim> +Sandro
17:01:58 <AndyS> ack me
17:02:01 <ericP> ack me
17:02:22 <AndyS> I'll pass
17:02:36 <davidwood> ack Sandro
17:02:38 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:02:50 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
17:03:22 <ericP> sandro: [silence]
17:03:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:04:01 <davidwood> Zakim must be forked.  I hear some.
17:04:03 <AndyS> zakim, IPCAller is me
17:04:03 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
17:04:08 <PatH> Zakim is getting tired.
17:04:23 <AndyS> david: bad conditions
17:04:38 <AndyS> ... regards for the holidays
17:04:43 <AndyS> ADJOURNED 
17:04:47 <yvesr> bye!
17:04:47 <pchampin> thanks
17:04:48 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:04:49 <AndyS> next meeting Jan 4.
17:04:50 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:04:50 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
17:04:51 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:04:52 <Guus> bye
17:04:53 <Zakim> -yvesr
17:04:54 <AZ> bye
17:04:54 <PatH> eric, can you email that example?
17:04:55 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:04:56 <cygri> thanks david!
17:04:59 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:04:59 <Zakim> -gavinc
17:05:01 <Zakim> -pchampin
17:05:02 <Zakim> -cygri
17:05:05 <Zakim> -Eric
17:05:10 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:05:14 <Zakim> -AZ
17:05:15 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
17:05:16 <PatH> muted merry Xmas to all.
17:05:16 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
17:06:02 <Zakim> -Guus
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