Chatlog 2011-11-30

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16:01:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-irc
16:01:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:01:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
16:01:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
16:01:53 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:01:53 <trackbot> Date: 30 November 2011
16:01:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:01:57 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:01:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-minutes.html MacTed
16:02:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
16:02:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
16:02:03 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:02:05 <trackbot> Date: 30 November 2011
16:02:23 <MacTed> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:02:30 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:34 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
16:02:34 <Zakim> I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted
16:02:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, OpenLink_Software, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc
16:02:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, RRSAgent, Guus, Zakim, pfps, PatH, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AndyS, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, danbri_, mischat, yvesr, mdmdm, NickH, manu, manu1, trackbot, sandro, ericP
16:02:40 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:47 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:02:47 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:02:50 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:02:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:02:51 <gavinc> scribenick: gavinc
16:02:53 <charlesgreer> charlesgreer has joined #rdf-wg
16:03:04 <Guus> zakim, +31 is me
16:03:04 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
16:03:07 <gavinc> Topic: Admin
16:03:25 <Zakim> +AlexHall
16:04:02 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
16:04:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, MacTed (muted), Scott_Bauer, AndyS, Guus, gavinc, AlexHall
16:04:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see charlesgreer, AlexHall, Arnaud, RRSAgent, Guus, Zakim, pfps, PatH, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AndyS, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, danbri_, mischat, yvesr, mdmdm, NickH, manu, manu1,
16:04:06 <Zakim> ... trackbot, sandro, ericP
16:04:52 <Zakim> +ericP
16:04:55 <charlesgreer> zakim, list attendees
16:04:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc, MacTed, Guus, AlexHall, ericP
16:05:07 <Zakim> + +1.850.377.aabb
16:05:10 <Zakim> +Arnaud_LeHors
16:05:10 <charlesgreer> zakim, cgreer is me
16:05:10 <Zakim> +charlesgreer; got it
16:05:52 <PatH> zakim, 1.850377.aabb is me
16:05:54 <Zakim> sorry, PatH, I do not recognize a party named '1.850377.aabb'
16:06:24 <PatH> zakim, 1.850.377.aabb is me
16:06:27 <Zakim> sorry, PatH, I do not recognize a party named '1.850.377.aabb'
16:06:34 <gavinc> Guus: Didn't have a meeting last week for Thanksgiving. Small meeting this week with so many at SemTech
16:08:32 <gavinc> gavinc: Updated Graph-TF wiki page, tried to find more info from mailing lists. Added link to RDF Concepts datatypes to Turtle
16:09:08 <AndyS> AndyS has no progress to report on action #119 "Create a short example for a TriG document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it" - sorry
16:09:08 <gavinc> AndyS: No progress on ISSUE-119
16:09:21 <AndyS> s/ISSUE/ACTION/ !!!!!!!!
16:10:10 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs
16:10:22 <Zakim> + +1.415.586.aacc
16:11:17 <gavinc> Guus: PatH completed ACTION-116
16:11:17 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has joined #rdf-wg
16:11:40 <gavinc> Guus: Sandro and David Wood can't make it next week. May need to cancel 
16:12:14 <gavinc> Topic: RDF XMLLiterals
16:12:36 <gavinc> Guus: Richard is not here. Who wants to give the current status of this debate?
16:12:42 <PatH> zakim, aabb is me
16:12:42 <Zakim> +PatH; got it
16:13:08 <gavinc> AndyS: I don't see any reason to keep XMLLiterals hard coded into the specs.
16:13:17 <PatH> +1
16:13:26 <gavinc> AndyS: As long as their optional, not that concerned about them
16:13:44 <gavinc> +q
16:13:55 <JeremyCarroll> q+
16:14:13 <gavinc> PatH: Was there any consensus in emails? 
16:14:40 <gavinc> Guus: Needed for RDF/XML, but not much else.
16:14:44 <Zakim> +??P28
16:14:56 <NickH> Zakim, ??P28 is me
16:14:56 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
16:15:02 <NickH> Zakim, mute me
16:15:03 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
16:15:11 <gavinc> Guus: No significant disagreement 
16:15:20 <gavinc> avk me
16:15:23 <gavinc> ack me
16:16:20 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
16:16:30 <gavinc> gavinc: No strong opinions if it's optional, but the value space is a bit complicated 
16:16:31 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll
16:16:45 <Zakim> +??P29
16:17:37 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: People seem not to want to mention XML C14N. I think I should provide a rationale
16:19:00 <PatH> +1 to Jeremy. I suggest masking it optional taks away most of the pain.
16:19:29 <PatH> masking/making
16:19:38 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: If you need to compare things, C14N is a requirement. If you want to do logical operations over it then you need to do the C14N. We need to specify how to do compare, but not every application needs to do compare
16:20:16 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: Making it optional seems like the key change. 
16:20:38 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: I prefer doing in L2V mapping, but was easier as an implementor do it in the XML parser
16:20:57 <AndyS> q+
16:21:13 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: At some point will need to compare an XMLLiteral from RDF/XML and Turtle, wherew will we do the work? I think right now we're saying to do it durring the compare
16:21:23 <pfps> q+
16:21:32 <gavinc> q+ 
16:21:41 <ericP> editorially, we could motivate this by use cases: "For use cases which motivate equivalence between XML literals, generators of XML literals rfc2119:SHOULD canonicalize XML literals by XML Canonicalization"
16:21:48 <gavinc> ack AndyS
16:22:13 <gavinc> AndyS: You said that the XML comunity has done some work on equality?
16:22:42 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: XML C14N talks about equality, XML infoset doesn't.
16:22:54 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: Namespaces are an example of this.
16:23:18 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: XML C14N addresses what to do with XML Namespaces
16:23:28 <Guus> ack pfps
16:23:29 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: There are not perfect answers here.
16:24:08 <gavinc> pfps: If reading from an XML document, I understand why you need to get this right, but if your not using XML documents. In Turtle you can treat them as string
16:24:26 <gavinc> Guus: This could be in RDF/XML no RDF Concepts?
16:25:35 <PatH> if this is optional as a datatype, then we can have two kinds of xml literals with different mappings and values. 
16:25:39 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: I think pfps, I think XMLLiteral should compare as a String, and RDF/XML should do the XML C14N, but in Turtle don't do anything. Only works if hand codded perfectly.
16:26:14 <ericP> gavinc: pfps's approach sounds OK
16:26:35 <ericP> ... i've used XML literals a fair amount. I don't think XML literal meets any of its original use cases.
16:26:51 <ericP> ... you can't use it for fragments 'cause c14n talks about documents
16:26:58 <ericP> ... fragments get strange
16:27:13 <JeremyCarroll> hmmm - xc14n is all about fragments not documents ...
16:27:23 <ericP> ... adding formatted XML into RDF seems like a good use case, but we can't use c14n
16:27:35 <PatH> in this pfps proposal, what is the L2V map? what are the literal values? c14n or text?
16:27:47 <ericP> ... we and others put escaped XML into strings
16:28:21 <gavinc> Guus: I don't want to spend a huge ammount of time on this issue.
16:28:24 <ericP> q?
16:28:30 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to correct Gavin's backwards
16:28:34 <gavinc> s/escaped XML/escaped HTML
16:29:09 <ericP> q+
16:29:10 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute me
16:29:10 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
16:29:12 <PatH> zakim, mute me
16:29:12 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
16:32:21 <AndyS> ack ericP
16:32:35 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin raise issue around formated text literals
16:32:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-124 - Raise issue around formated text literals [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-12-07].
16:33:01 <gavinc> ack gavin
16:33:17 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll 
16:33:18 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to correct Gavin's backwards
16:33:23 <gavinc> ericP: ... said stuff about XML C14N ...
16:34:01 <gavinc> Guus: what is the impact?
16:34:33 <gavinc> ericP: for some use cases, generators should use XML C14N
16:34:38 <JeremyCarroll> q+
16:34:43 <PatH> editorial...  
16:34:58 <gavinc> ericP: Pushing back on only being in RDF/XML
16:35:23 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: That's a large editoral change.
16:35:57 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: Muddling up use cases with normative text is not a direction I want the specs to do
16:36:01 <gavinc> s/do/go
16:36:27 <gavinc> Topic: Turtle and SPARQL escapes
16:36:55 <gavinc> Guus: is there consensus?
16:37:30 <gavinc> AndyS: I thought Richards desire and ericP's desires could be resolved with character escapes
16:37:52 <gavinc> AndyS: SPARQL can go on with a at risk feature. 
16:38:20 <gavinc> q+
16:38:41 <gavinc> AndyS: Haven't seen a responce from ericP
16:38:50 <gavinc> ericP: I see all of it as an improvement 
16:38:51 <ericP> +1 from me
16:39:57 <Zakim> +Arnaud.a
16:40:24 <Zakim> -Arnaud_LeHors
16:40:48 <AndyS> If this has consensus, SPARQL-WG can proceed as described in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011OctDec/0229.html
16:44:02 <PatH> The 'committee' heuristic: always make as few binding decisions as possible.
16:45:07 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0249.html (first comment)
16:45:51 <gavinc> "Is escaping the URI-legal, non-alphanumerics as character escapes acceptable to you?"
16:46:33 <JeremyCarroll> shall we create an action to make the text?
16:46:51 <gavinc>    <identifier_char>: [a-zA-Z0-9-] | \\[URI-legal, non-alphanumerics]
16:47:23 <gavinc> Topic: Named Graphs
16:47:44 <AZ> q+
16:47:53 <JeremyCarroll> q-
16:47:56 <gavinc> Guus: There have been some messages on the uses of the 4th column
16:47:59 <gavinc> ack gavinc
16:48:02 <PatH> q+
16:48:34 <gavinc> Guus: IRI in the 4th column seems to be the consensus
16:48:53 <gavinc> AZ: It is still useful to have Literals in the 4th column 
16:49:14 <gavinc> Guus: has to be extreamly compelling to change the design
16:49:44 <gavinc> AZ: For temporal RDF, people are annotating with VALUE, not a IRI
16:50:00 <JeremyCarroll> q+
16:50:30 <gavinc> AZ: other proposals that annotate with trust values, which again, are values. 
16:50:44 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
16:50:44 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
16:50:50 <Guus> ack PatH
16:51:12 <gavinc> PatH: Allow literals in 4th positions, one can imagine uses
16:51:27 <gavinc> PatH: I don't think we have preserve existing desgin, we don't have one
16:51:43 <AZ> strong +1 PatH
16:51:49 <gavinc> PatH: Should not prohibit values in fields in RDF 
16:52:40 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: Original design had a 5th column 
16:53:22 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: When you think about it, you want to talk about small graphs (molecules). Give those subgraphs name...
16:53:23 <PatH> the fourth column need not be a graph name. We dont yet have enough experience to know how quads may be used.
16:53:39 <PatH> q
16:53:44 <AZ> q+
16:53:54 <PatH> q+
16:54:15 <Guus> ack AZ
16:54:25 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll
16:54:28 <gavinc> ... I don't understand the restince to I don't understand the resistance to named graphs.
16:54:40 <gavinc> AZ: Need to be able to relate the IRI to the graph itself as the label.
16:54:51 <gavinc> AZ: The IRI doesn't denote the graph
16:54:55 <Guus> ack PatH
16:55:01 <gavinc> AZ: Then you can't annotate the triples
16:56:08 <gavinc> PatH: the 4th column doesn't denote, so we shouldn't restrict how it's used
16:56:38 <gavinc> Guus: We don't require the 4th column to denote, so we shouldn't place other requirements on the 4th column
16:57:13 <swh> swh has joined #rdf-wg
16:57:23 <ericP> q+ to mention some bias towards IRIs for graph names in SPARQL
16:58:03 <PatH> losing sound?
16:58:05 <AZ> in SPARQL does really have a "fourth column"
16:58:28 <gavinc> AndyS: SPARQL does not "denote", but does require an IRI
16:59:15 <PatH> to hell with writing a spec in order to preserve someone's optimizers.
16:59:29 <pchampin> anyway, SPARQL does allow literals in subject position, doesnt it?
16:59:42 <pchampin> so optimizing that way is already non-compliant :)
16:59:42 <gavinc> AndyS: The words in the SPARQL algebra say IRI, but could change.
17:00:26 <gavinc> Guus: Would feel more comfortable if the SPARQL working group would respond formally 
17:00:57 <AZ> To me it's ok to have SPARQL forbid literals as "name for graphs", it's just that quads with literals would not translate directly to SPARQL datasets
17:01:06 <gavinc> ACTION Guus to ask SPARQL WG about allowing literals in the 4th column 
17:01:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-125 - Ask SPARQL WG about allowing literals in the 4th column  [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-12-07].
17:01:09 <ericP> q-
17:01:10 <PatH> +i az
17:01:10 <Guus> q?
17:01:18 <PatH> +1 az
17:01:48 <AndyS> ... That's a gotcha. :-( 
17:02:16 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to argue for Named Graphs (with denotation)
17:03:20 <pchampin> q+
17:03:46 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll
17:03:46 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to argue for Named Graphs (with denotation)
17:04:00 <PatH> zakim, mute me
17:04:00 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
17:04:04 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: The thing with RDF is that we don't have a Triple. We have a subject, predicate, and object. Those are all different 
17:04:22 <ericP> i didn't see any LL(1) or LALR(1) grammar conflicts when adding literals to http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker?name=trigTurtle&replace=1&lang=perl#prod-trigTurtle_EGP-graph
17:04:47 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: That is the design. The design is about making choices. You get inter op by having a design and limitations.
17:04:53 <PatH> q+
17:05:32 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: The goal of named graphs was to add the least amount of change to address new use cases.
17:05:52 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: I don't see allowing literals in the 4th field to be anything other then us failing to do our jobs
17:05:53 <AndyS> Does any TriG parser enforce one-use of an IRI to id a graph?
17:06:51 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
17:06:51 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
17:07:07 <Guus> q?
17:07:19 <AndyS> q+ to ask to finalize escape item
17:07:35 <AZ> If it's doomed to be an IRI, then we should be more precise about what that IRI refers to
17:07:35 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: the purpose of a standards body is to make decisions in the design
17:07:47 <gavinc> pchampin: no one wants to restrict what the 4th column can be
17:08:02 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: not to provide general machinery that can be used in a non-interoperable fashion
17:08:29 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: previous group went for Subject, Predicate, Object as a triple, not three general items
17:08:45 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: we should specify what the 4th column is specifiying
17:08:45 <gavinc> pchampin: going back to older proposal graph is not labeled not by an IRI but by a resource
17:08:55 <pchampin> ack pa
17:09:01 <pchampin> ack pchampin
17:09:02 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: making it identify the graph is clear and works with the previous spec
17:09:41 <gavinc> PatH: I'm sympathetic with JeremyCarroll's position. I like that design. I've been working there for some months, but that it's untenable. 
17:09:50 <gavinc> ... quad stores violate that design.
17:10:09 <gavinc> ... we need to rethink what that 4th position is
17:10:17 <gavinc> ... we shouldn't tie ourselves up 
17:10:48 <pchampin> +1 to pat
17:10:52 <gavinc> Guus: If the IRI is not forced to denote, then we should make very clear why it's an IRI
17:11:43 <gavinc> Topic: Back to Escapes 
17:11:56 <AndyS> (this discussion invalidates my action 119)
17:12:04 <AndyS> The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is   ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_  (token:  PN_LOCAL), the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
17:12:10 <AndyS> Any generated IRI is still subject to rule governing the legality of IRIs.  e.g. og:audio\:title  (This does not cover one way or the other (1) adding %xx with unescaped % in PN_LOCAL (2) \u escapes in Turtle)
17:12:23 <PatH> I will escape now:-)
17:12:29 <Zakim> -PatH
17:13:58 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is   ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_  (token:  PN_LOCAL), the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
17:13:59 <ericP> +1
17:14:01 <gavinc> +1
17:14:38 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
17:14:38 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
17:15:45 <gavinc> ISSUE-67
17:15:47 <MacTed> The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is   ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_  (token:  PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
17:15:48 <gavinc> ISSUE-67
17:15:48 <trackbot> ISSUE-67 -- \xxxx escaping in prefixed names -- open
17:15:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/67
17:16:02 <gavinc> ISSUE-74
17:16:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open
17:16:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/74
17:16:45 <MacTed> +1 to proposal, with my insert  :-)
17:16:48 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
17:16:48 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
17:17:31 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: resolve ISSUE-74 with -- The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is   ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_  (token:  PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
17:17:35 <ericP> +1
17:17:43 <gavinc>  +1
17:17:43 <MacTed> +1
17:17:59 <AndyS> RESOLVED: resolve ISSUE-74 with -- The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is   ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_  (token:  PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
17:18:26 <gavinc> trackbot, end meeting
17:18:26 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:18:26 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Peter_Patel-Schneider, AZ, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc, MacTed, Guus, AlexHall, ericP, +1.850.377.aabb, Arnaud_LeHors,
17:18:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:18:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
17:18:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:18:28 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:18:29 <Zakim> ... charlesgreer, +1.415.586.aacc, JeremyCarroll, PatH, NickH, pchampin, Arnaud
17:18:31 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
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