Chatlog 2011-09-28

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14:58:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-rdf-wg-irc
14:58:39 <pfps> scribenick pfps
14:59:18 <gavinc> trackbot, start meeting
14:59:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:59:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:23 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:59:23 <trackbot> Date: 28 September 2011
14:59:58 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:09 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:38 <pfps> scribenick: pfps
15:00:43 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:00:43 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
15:00:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain, yvesr_,
15:00:47 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP
15:01:11 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:30 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:01:30 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, MacTed
15:01:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain,
15:01:33 <Zakim> ... yvesr_, sandro, ericP
15:01:36 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 73394
15:01:36 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:01:38 <Zakim> +bhyland
15:01:39 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:01:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, Tony, +33.4.77.42.aabb, +1.443.212.aacc, OpenLink_Software, Arnaud, +1.707.861.aadd, bhyland
15:01:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain,
15:01:47 <Zakim> ... yvesr_, sandro, ericP
15:01:48 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:49 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:01:50 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:51 <gavinc> zakim, aadd is me
15:01:53 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:55 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:57 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
15:01:58 <AlexHall> zakim, aacc is me
15:01:59 <davidwood> zakim, bhyland is me
15:02:01 <Zakim> + +44.207.923.aaee
15:02:03 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, Tony is me
15:02:05 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:02:06 <pfps> scribenick: pfps
15:02:07 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
15:02:09 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
15:02:14 <Guus> zakim, +31.20.598.aaaa is me
15:02:17 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
15:02:18 <Arnaud> fyi, I will have to drop at the hour
15:02:21 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:28 <pfps> topic: Admin
15:02:41 <Zakim> +PatH
15:03:09 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:15 <yvesr_> Zakim, who's on the call?
15:03:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Scott_Bauer, +33.4.77.42.aabb, AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, gavinc, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +44.207.923.aaee, PatH
15:03:15 <AZ> zakim, aabb is me
15:03:18 <PatH> I will have to drop out in 30 mins for a short while.
15:03:18 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:03:27 <yvesr_> Zakim, +44.207.923.aaee is me
15:03:27 <Zakim> +yvesr_; got it
15:03:32 <yvesr_> Zakim, mute me
15:03:32 <Zakim> yvesr_ should now be muted
15:03:37 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:03:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, gavinc, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, yvesr_ (muted), PatH
15:03:37 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see cmatheus, pchampin, PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood,
15:03:41 <Zakim> ... trackbot, stain, yvesr_, sandro, ericP
15:03:45 <Zakim> + +1.781.899.aaff
15:03:45 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:03:47 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
15:03:55 <sandro> zakim, aaff is Sandro
15:03:55 <Zakim> +Sandro; got it
15:04:04 <Zakim> +??P34
15:04:12 <pchampin> zakim, ??P34 is me
15:04:12 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
15:04:14 <pchampin> zakim, mute me
15:04:14 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted
15:04:28 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aagg
15:04:33 <PatH> zakim, mute me
15:04:33 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
15:04:39 <zwu2> zakim, aagg is me
15:04:39 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
15:04:49 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:04:50 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:04:52 <pfps> PROPOSED: accept minutes of 21 Sep  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-09-21
15:05:03 <PatH> +1
15:05:21 <pfps> RESOLVED: accept minutes of 21 Sep http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-09-21
15:05:33 <pfps> guus: action items - pending
15:05:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:06:16 <Zakim> +EricP
15:06:37 <yvesr_> done :)
15:06:49 <pfps> guus: 77 done, 89 [done], 90 done, 91 done
15:06:51 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:02 <pfps> guus: open actions
15:07:08 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aahh
15:07:18 <Souri> zakim, aahh is me
15:07:19 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
15:07:27 <pfps> guus: action 82 - Sandro?
15:07:42 <pfps> sandro: no action yet - will try this week
15:07:53 <pfps> guus: action 86 - Sandro?
15:08:08 <sandro> action-86?
15:08:08 <trackbot> ACTION-86 -- Sandro Hawke to provide example for how code is simpler with language-tag options 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN
15:08:08 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/86
15:08:35 <pfps> sandro: 86 is either done or obsolete
15:08:41 <pfps> guus: everything is to continue
15:08:43 <sandro> it's both!
15:09:07 <pfps> TOPIC: F2F planning
15:09:12 <pfps> guus:  anything to be done
15:09:14 <sandro> is it disjunction and/or conjunction?  :-)
15:09:22 <yvesr_> Zakim, unmute me
15:09:23 <Zakim> yvesr_ should no longer be muted
15:09:51 <pfps> davidwood: note that times have changed (and are now aligned)
15:09:53 <yvesr_> Zakim, mute me
15:09:53 <Zakim> yvesr_ should now be muted
15:09:59 <ericP> sandro, do you know the foo to make sure the Stata doors are unlocked?
15:10:09 <ericP> if not, i'll dig into it
15:10:22 <sandro> please do, eric.
15:10:36 <pfps> guus: agenda for F2F2 is on the wiki, need to make sure that some open time remains
15:10:53 <pfps> guus:  no need to change more right now
15:10:54 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
15:11:15 <pfps> TOPIC: Turtle in HTML
15:11:36 <pfps> guus: see message from Gavin
15:11:57 <pfps> gavinc: document needs to be brought up before HTML task force
15:12:13 <pfps> s/HTML/HTML data/
15:13:04 <pfps> ACTION gavinc: liase with HTML data task force to bring up Turtle in HTML document, etc.
15:13:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-92 - Liase with HTML data task force to bring up Turtle in HTML document, etc. [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-10-05].
15:13:52 <pfps> TOPIC: Liaison with Provenance WG 
15:14:11 <pfps> guus: trust use case from Sandro http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-prov/2011Sep/0003.html
15:14:33 <davidwood> q+ to ask what impact Turtle in HTML might have on RDF/JSON
15:14:34 <pfps> guus: this appears to be a good, driving example
15:15:00 <pfps> sandro: I can't speak for the PWG, even though I tried to provoke discussion of it there
15:15:30 <pfps> sandro: Richard had some comments, notably a set of actions
15:16:03 <pfps> guus: how about RDF to show example(s)?
15:16:23 <PatH> this example seems very ambitious to me. ZDoes the Prov. grp consider it in their scope?
15:16:36 <Zakim> +??P3
15:16:44 <pfps> sandro: one issue is when you need a "snapshot", e.g., "That's not right", but then the "that" is fixed
15:16:48 <AndyS> zakim, ??P3 is me
15:16:48 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:17:10 <pfps> sandro: Richard's proposal does not appear to speak to this
15:17:10 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:18:18 <pfps> guus: can we come up with some worked examples, showing potential RDF content?
15:18:34 <pfps> sandro: I'll try to work this into the conversation with Richard
15:18:57 <sandro> will post to public-rdf-prov@w3.org
15:19:08 <pfps> sandro: on the joint mailing list public-rdf-prov@w3.org
15:19:52 <pfps> guus: can something be done on this at the F2F?  
15:20:06 <davidwood> q-
15:20:07 <pfps> guus: we need to prepare something on this for F2F
15:20:30 <pfps> sandro: can others do other examples?
15:20:52 <pfps> guus: how about responding to the first example with potential solutions?
15:21:44 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
15:22:14 <pfps> the above link is the relevant page for this WG to edit on provenance
15:22:23 <pfps> guus: volunteers to do something?
15:22:58 <pfps> gavinc: there is an example - i'll work on it
15:23:36 <yvesr_> just got a nice use-case from Denni V - I asked him to write it up
15:23:47 <yvesr_> about data wikis
15:23:59 <PatH> whatever you decide, it only works if everyone does it.
15:24:19 <gavinc> Exactly. 
15:24:40 <sandro> sandro: maybe simplest solution is all script/turtle elements are the default graph, unless they have id tags.    This gives you a dataset serialization format (although only when the graph ids have the same base)
15:24:51 <pfps> guus:  please come up with interesting suggestions for proposals
15:25:04 <Zakim> -Arnaud
15:25:22 <sandro> Jan
15:25:41 <Guus> Jan Wielemaker
15:25:43 <Zakim> +Arnaud
15:25:50 <AndyS> (implicit) base URIs considered harmful.
15:25:52 <Guus> will ask him to look at examples
15:25:54 <pfps> guus: i'll ask Jan Wielemaker to contribute
15:26:08 <davidwood> AndyS++
15:26:45 <PatH> "My favorite quadstore", a contemporary love story.
15:26:54 <gavinc> www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Graphs-In-Turtle 
15:27:02 <pfps> guus: provenance will be a main topic at the F2F
15:27:55 <pfps> gavinc: work on serialization of all this
15:28:32 <pfps> gavinc: looking at what it would take to standarize something like TRIG or n-QUADS and how it could be compatible with Turtle
15:29:11 <pfps> gavinc: proposal from me (GRAPH keyword); another like TRIG (see strawman page)

15:30:25 <pfps> gavinc: problem with TRIG is that it isn't n-quads (because TRIG has to have all the graph in one spot)
15:30:36 <Zakim> -PatH
15:30:40 <pfps> Strawman proposal Richard: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph
15:30:48 <ericP> q+ to say the semantics might be easier if each graph simply added to the "database" so repeats simply append
15:31:14 <pfps> Sandro: I don't like stateful syntaxes
15:31:52 <sandro> ericp
15:32:28 <pfps> ericP: Turtle already has state - in [], prefixes, etc., so we wouldn't be too much worse
15:32:35 <ericP> <G1> { <G2> { <s> <p> <o> } }
15:32:40 <Guus> q?
15:32:47 <Guus> ack eripP
15:32:53 <ericP> <G1> {
15:32:58 <Guus> ack aricP
15:33:02 <AndyS> Turtle is only concat as whole files.  (bNode labels excepted) is that enough?
15:33:03 <ericP>   <G2> { <s> <p> <o> }
15:33:05 <ericP> }
15:33:15 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:33:28 <sandro> sandro: so good practice might be to start every turtle doc with "@graph . #go back to the default graph"   if you think there might be concats.
15:33:29 <pfps> ericP: some of this can be addressed by fiddling with embedding
15:33:46 <Guus> ack ericP
15:33:46 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say the semantics might be easier if each graph simply added to the "database" so repeats simply append
15:34:06 <pfps> ericP: concatenation has some negative consequences
15:35:01 <pfps> ericP:  line-orientation also runs counter to concatenability
15:35:20 <LeeF> We repeat the same graph ID a fair amount
15:35:30 <LeeF> (in our TriG documents)
15:35:33 <LeeF> And it's additive
15:35:38 <pfps> AndyS: the (?) implementation of TRIG actually allows graph id repetition
15:36:13 <pfps> gavinc: but the semantics may not be best
15:36:34 <sandro>  = vs +=
15:36:36 <pfps> sandro: N3 has an implicit "=", so concatentation isn't the intended meaning
15:36:48 <pfps> ericP: which version of N3
15:37:01 <ericP> s/ericP/AndyS/
15:37:16 <pfps> sandro: both
15:38:15 <sandro> sandro: for this week, I'm inclined to go with @graph, since it's more clear to me what it means.
15:38:21 <ericP> with the curly braces approach, we have a short way to write the grammar:
15:38:22 <ericP> [1]    	trigDoc 	   ::=    	( directive | trigGraph )*
15:38:22 <ericP> [2]    	trigGraph 	   ::=    	IRIref "="? "{" turtleDoc" "}" "."? 
15:38:37 <ericP> and lean on the turtle spec
15:38:52 <pfps> sandro: @graph form - semantics??
15:39:20 <gavinc> @graph . #go back to the default graph
15:39:22 <pfps> gavinc: not complete
15:39:32 <sandro> sandro: when you hit the end of the turtle file, do you know exactly which triples are in each named graph?
15:40:10 <pfps> guus: any relationship to documents
15:41:09 <pfps> ??
15:41:26 <ericP> q+ to say that i fiddled with making trig lean on Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/Trig
15:41:43 <pfps> sandro: dataset = gbox, gsnap is different
15:42:08 <pfps> gavinc: need something that shows complete graph contents
15:42:44 <pfps> sandro: yes
15:42:51 <sandro> sandro: maybe = syntax will be clearer these are gsnaps
15:43:09 <sandro> (uh oh - phone problems - may drop off without warning.)
15:43:22 <pfps> ericP: i fiddled with making trig lean on Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/Trig
15:43:35 <AndyS> Why not make Trig simply  +Turtle (unnamed {} optional) +NQuads (outside {})
15:44:34 <pfps> sandro:  how about splitting the difference?
15:44:43 <pfps> AndyS: the strawman is more line oriented
15:45:02 <ericP> q-
15:45:08 <pfps> AndyS: this helps with relationship to n-quads
15:45:22 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:46:37 <sandro> [....] is nesting, yeah.
15:46:43 <pfps> gavinc: trig introduces nesting to turtle, which doesn't have much
15:47:18 <yvesr_> although only one degree of nesting (in trig)
15:47:28 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:47:59 <pfps> TOPIC: Status RDF Dataset proposal 
15:48:09 <pfps> Strawman proposal Richard: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph
15:48:33 <pfps> guus: as Richard is not here, let's move on
15:48:44 <pfps> guus: ISSUE-12 language-tagged literals 
15:48:58 <pfps> guus: Results of poll so far: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46168/tagged_literals/results
15:49:42 <pfps> guus:  the proposals with only a few "no" votes are 1 and 2d
15:49:56 <pfps> guus: the other proposals are very likely to be problematic
15:50:41 <pfps> guus: option 2d has fewer prefer not votes, so it appears to be a more-liked solution
15:51:12 <AZ> +1 to go on with 2d
15:51:17 <pfps> guus: shall we spend *more* time discussing this, or should we just try for 2d
15:51:20 <gavinc> +1 to go with 2d
15:51:24 <LeeF> I'm happy with 2d
15:51:37 <pchampin> +1 to go on with 2d
15:51:40 <yvesr_> guus++
15:52:08 <ericP> Arnaud, did you say that the current RDF spec says that language tags are normalized to lower case?
15:52:47 <pfps> davidwood: should we spend some time looking at cleaning up various uses of string literals
15:53:05 <gavinc> ericP, yes
15:53:29 <pfps> guus: spending scarce F2F time may not be the best way
15:54:07 <pfps> guus: can we put forward a proposal (next week?) in preparation for a final decision at the F2F?
15:54:13 <ericP> gavinc, wasnt' that why we gave up on the datatype approach?
15:54:18 <pfps> davidwood: OK
15:54:27 <ericP> oh well, i'm not going to push anything
15:54:51 <pfps> guus: i'll propose a resolution for next week (but maybe the initial proposer would be better)
15:55:20 <AndyS> ericP - yes - sec 6.5 of "concepts"
15:55:40 <pfps> sandro:  we need to try to make a final resolution - no backsliding!
15:56:41 <pfps> ACTION guus: propose a resolution for next week on language-tagged-literals
15:56:05 <pfps> TOPIC: AOB
15:56:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-93 - Propose a resolution for next week on language-tagged-literals [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-10-05].
15:57:01 <pfps> guus: adjourned
15:57:07 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:57:08 <yvesr_> bye!
15:57:08 <Zakim> -MacTed
15:57:10 <Zakim> -EricP
15:57:10 <AZ> bye
15:57:11 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:57:11 <Zakim> -Souri
15:57:11 <Zakim> -yvesr_
15:57:13 <Zakim> -davidwood
15:57:13 <Zakim> -Guus
15:57:14 <Zakim> -Arnaud
15:57:14 <zwu2> bye
15:57:16 <Zakim> -gavinc
15:57:17 <Zakim> -AlexHall
15:57:20 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:57:24 <Zakim> -zwu2
15:57:28 <Zakim> -AZ
15:57:34 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:57:36 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
15:58:31 <pfps> rrsagent, please set logs world-visible
15:58:40 <pfps> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:58:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-rdf-wg-minutes.html pfps
15:58:51 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
15:59:16 <pfps> rrsagent, please set minutes world-visible
15:59:16 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please set minutes world-visible', pfps.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:00:13 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
16:08:17 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:08:19 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
16:08:20 <Zakim> Attendees were +33.4.77.42.aabb, +1.443.212.aacc, Arnaud, +1.707.861.aadd, Peter_Patel-Schneider, MacTed, gavinc, AlexHall, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, Guus, PatH, AZ, yvesr_,
16:08:22 <Zakim> ... +1.781.899.aaff, Sandro, pchampin, +1.650.265.aagg, zwu2, EricP, +1.603.897.aahh, Souri, AndyS, LeeF
16:08:48 <pfps> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:08:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-rdf-wg-minutes.html pfps
16:09:14 <gavinc> Those aren't are minutes system btw ;)
16:10:26 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/
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