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15:19:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg <sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02 15:19:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc 15:21:26 <LeeF> Hard to disagree with that 15:21:47 <LeeF> I think I will never get used to reading the "@" sigil in JSON-LD correctly, alas 15:22:05 <mischat> manu: in your trig looking examples, in the example "Graph Changes Over Time" for example, you have trailing "'s 15:22:06 <mischat> "2011-02-26T00:00:00+0000"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime> 15:22:10 <mischat> " 15:22:43 <hsbauer> Scribe: Scott Bauer 15:22:44 <manu> @LeeF yeah - we could change it to something else? Every time I've changed the key that establishes the subject, somebody complains about it :P 15:23:02 <hsbauer> ScribeNick: hsbauer 15:23:20 <hsbauer> Meeting: RDF WG Teleconference 15:24:14 <LeeF> oh i wasn't complaining, manu, i'm just not used to it 15:24:17 <LeeF> I think it's kind of clever 15:25:28 <hsbauer> is david wood chair today? 15:25:49 <manu> LeeF, it's annoying at first, and then you get used to it. '@' was supposed to symbolize - "This object can be found at..." or "This object describes the data at..." or "This object exists at..." 15:29:12 <hsbauer> Chair: David Wood 15:29:49 <hsbauer> zakim, this will be SW_RDFWG 15:29:49 <Zakim> ok, hsbauer; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes 15:33:18 <mischat> um, turtle does allow "." before "]" when writing predicateObject lists, as per rule 7 in the turtle submission thing. The correct (turtle'd version of your example) http://pastebin.com/K7D9LQ36 (obviously this is less the graph bit you would get in trig). 15:42:48 <mischat> ok may do that afterwards :) 15:46:36 <webr3> webr3 has joined #rdf-wg 15:51:38 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started 15:51:41 <gavinc> gavinc has joined #rdf-wg 15:51:45 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer 15:52:49 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg 15:52:59 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public 15:53:57 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #rdf-wg 15:54:16 <PatHayes> PatHayes has joined #rdf-wg 15:54:32 <Zakim> +davidwood 15:54:44 <Zakim> +FabGandon 15:55:00 <Zakim> +gavinc 15:55:12 <gavinc> zakim, mute me 15:55:12 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted 15:56:52 <davidwood> Meeting: RDF Working Group 15:56:57 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood 15:57:28 <Zakim> +PatH 15:57:33 <manu> zakim, code? 15:57:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+188.8.131.52.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu 15:57:44 <Zakim> +??P9 15:57:47 <manu> zakim, I am ??P9 15:57:47 <Zakim> +manu; got it 15:57:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 15:57:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 15:57:49 <Zakim> +Ivan 15:57:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg 15:57:55 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer 15:57:58 <Zakim> +Sandro 15:58:12 <ivan> zakim, mute me 15:58:12 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted 15:58:23 <davidwood> ScribeNick: hsbauer 15:58:32 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg 15:58:35 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg 15:58:40 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02 15:58:44 <Zakim> +??P10 15:58:56 <mischat> zakim, P10 is me 15:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named 'P10' 15:59:02 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider 15:59:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg 15:59:07 <mischat> zakim, ??P10 is me 15:59:07 <Zakim> +mischat; got it 15:59:10 <mischat> zakim, mute me 15:59:10 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted 15:59:22 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg 15:59:25 <Zakim> +??P12 15:59:32 <Zakim> +LeeF 15:59:33 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me 15:59:33 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 15:59:49 <Zakim> +corby 16:00:03 <PatHayes> Im not hearing the breathing. 16:00:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 16:00:07 <Zakim> +Alex_Hall 16:00:11 <webr3> zakim, +[IPcaller] is me 16:00:11 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]' 16:00:12 <Zakim> +AZ 16:00:18 <webr3> zakim, IPcaller is me 16:00:18 <Zakim> +webr3; got it 16:00:28 <AlexHall> zakim, Alex_Hall is me 16:00:28 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it 16:00:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here? 16:00:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall, 16:00:52 <Zakim> ... AZ 16:00:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH, danbri, davidwood, yvesr, 16:00:57 <Zakim> ... manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot 16:00:58 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber 16:01:14 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg 16:01:26 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg 16:01:30 <Zakim> +zwu2 16:01:51 <AZ> zakim, mute me 16:01:51 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted 16:02:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 16:02:27 <Zakim> +cygri 16:02:27 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg <sandro> Topic: Admin 16:02:33 <danbri> regrets from me; at mini-NoTube F2F in Bristol (although not as I feared travelling so will follow in IRC) 16:02:51 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here 16:02:51 <Zakim> mbrunati, you need to end that query with '?' 16:03:05 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here? 16:03:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall, 16:03:08 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, [IPcaller], cygri 16:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see cmatheus, Guus, SteveH__, AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH, 16:03:15 <Zakim> ... danbri, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot 16:03:20 <sandro> regrets: danbri, souri 16:03:24 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPCaller] is me 16:03:24 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it 16:03:26 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg 16:03:36 <manu> zakim, who is on the call? 16:03:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall, 16:03:40 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, mbrunati, cygri 16:03:45 <SteveH__> Zakim, what's the code? 16:03:45 <AZ> AZ is for Antoine Zimmermann 16:03:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+184.108.40.206.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), SteveH__ 16:03:58 <zwu2> zakim, mute me 16:03:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted 16:04:13 <hsbauer> regrets: danbri, yvesr, nickh, champin, tomayac 16:04:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 16:04:21 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 16:04:21 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it 16:04:28 <davidwood> Agenda is at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02 16:04:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-02 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02 16:04:59 <pfps> minutes look fine to me 16:05:06 <AndyS> Regrets for last time: AndyS 16:05:07 <hsbauer> david: proposes to accept last weeks minutes 16:05:12 <ivan> +1 16:05:15 <FabGandon> +1 16:05:18 <AZ> +1 16:05:23 <mbrunati> +1 16:05:26 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes 16:05:41 <hsbauer> david: action item review 16:05:43 <davidwood> Action items pending review: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview 16:05:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - items 16:05:47 <PatHayes> ignore this, testing. 16:06:04 <sandro> manu, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02 16:06:47 <hsbauer> ... pending review alex has completed use case, scott has completed use case 16:06:51 <AZ> zakim, unmute me 16:06:51 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted 16:07:11 <hsbauer> ... peter, antoine both completed use cases 16:07:16 <ivan> q+ #16:07:35 <davidwood> ACTION-1: close 16:07:35 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format notes added 16:07:42 <sandro> close action-1 16:07:42 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format closed 16:07:48 <Zakim> +??P2 16:07:52 <davidwood> close action-8 16:07:52 <trackbot> ACTION-8 Provide a use case for graphs closed 16:07:56 <davidwood> close action-9 16:07:56 <trackbot> ACTION-9 Provide a Revelytix use case for graphs closed 16:07:59 <davidwood> close action-13 16:07:59 <trackbot> ACTION-13 separate ontology named graph use case closed 16:08:02 <davidwood> close action-14 16:08:02 <trackbot> ACTION-14 Provide use cases for graphs in the wiki closed 16:08:14 <ivan> q- 16:08:16 <hsbauer> ... closing 8, 13, 14 and 9 16:08:46 <AZ> yversr must be him 16:08:57 <hsbauer> ... open action 4,5 16:08:59 <davidwood> yvesr: Is action-5 complete? 16:09:06 <yvesr> davidwood: i started on it 16:09:09 <davidwood> ok 16:09:11 <yvesr> davidwood: we still need to polish it 16:09:17 <sandro> s/yvesr:/yvesr,/ 16:09:19 <hsbauer> ... action 6, still open. 16:09:35 <mischat> Zakim, unmute me 16:09:35 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted 16:09:35 <sandro> mischat? 16:09:41 <yvesr> ivan: yes 16:09:46 <yvesr> ivan: but still a draft 16:09:51 <hsbauer> ... action 7, 11 still open 16:10:02 <mischat> zakim, mute me 16:10:02 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted 16:10:30 <hsbauer> ... what's our procedure for raised issues 16:10:48 <hsbauer> ... will call out issues open them and discuss briefly 16:12:00 <hsbauer> ... is turtle the same as sparkle 1.0 -- issue one. 16:12:04 <webr3> could close the issue by saying "no" and responding with all differences 16:12:25 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking 16:12:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer 16:12:39 <hsbauer> david: issue 2 16:13:14 <sandro> issue-2? 16:13:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- What existing proposal, if any, should be the starting point/default for the JSON design? -- open 16:13:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2 16:13:39 <hsbauer> ... What existing proposal should be the starting point for the JSON issue 16:14:20 <Zakim> -FabGandon 16:14:28 <Zakim> +FabGandon 16:14:42 <hsbauer> ... issue 3 also opened 16:15:08 <hsbauer> ... issue of handling action item. after pleading it mark it as pending review. 16:15:44 <ivan> April 13 14 in Amsterdam, at CWI #16:15:46 <davidwood> agendum: FTF1 16:15:49 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1 16:15:57 <hsbauer> ... F2F solid dates and location. Group can start making travel plans. 16:16:18 <sandro> q+ 16:16:22 <hsbauer> ... Place is TWI in Amsterdam 13th and 14th of march. 16:16:28 <ivan> s/TWI/CWI/ 16:16:32 <zwu2> april? 16:16:37 <hsbauer> ... Ivan will take an action itme. 16:16:46 <ivan> april 16:16:48 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1 16:16:50 <ivan> s/march/April/ 16:16:50 <davidwood> action: Guus to make hotel suggestions for FTF1 16:16:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-09]. 16:16:54 <hsbauer> ... correction 13th and 14th of April 16:17:11 <sandro> ack sandro 16:17:30 <AZ> zakim, mute me 16:17:30 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted #16:17:39 <davidwood> agendum: Turtle TF 16:17:39 <ivan> zakim, unmute me 16:17:39 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted #16:17:45 <davidwood> agendum: JSON TF #16:17:52 <davidwood> agendum: Graphs TF 16:17:59 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking? 16:18:09 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me 16:18:09 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted 16:18:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (16%), Sandro (25%), Ivan (34%) #16:18:14 <davidwood> agendum: Discuss Pat Hayes' Proposal for Graphs 16:18:14 <zwu2> q 16:18:16 <zwu2> q+ #16:18:20 <davidwood> agendum: AOB 16:18:23 <davidwood> next agendum 16:18:37 <davidwood> ack zwu2 16:18:55 <davidwood> next agendum 16:19:19 <hsbauer> zwu2: who is in charge of setting the meeting place? 16:19:50 <LeeF> I may need to send regrets for the first F2F as it conflicts with the Bio IT conference in Boston, which I am semi-committed too 16:19:54 <hsbauer> david: team contacts set the first f2f out of expediency 16:19:55 <LeeF> s/too/to 16:20:11 <hsbauer> ... 3 next will take input for those 16:20:17 <hsbauer> ... this one is fixed 16:20:22 <gavinc> If I remember right there was no remote presence ability at CWI? 16:20:30 <ivan> q+ 16:20:36 <ivan> ack zwu2 16:20:42 <ivan> ack zwu 16:21:05 <davidwood> ack ivan 16:21:06 <zwu2> zakim, mute me 16:21:07 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted 16:21:19 <hsbauer> I will also not be able to attend the first f2f 16:21:29 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking? 16:21:40 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 16:21:54 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking 16:21:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer 16:22:00 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking? 16:22:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (16%) 16:22:11 <sandro> ivan: We will have remote audio for the F2F 16:22:27 <sandro> ivan: we may be able to do some low-quality video (eg skype) 16:22:48 <LeeF> q+ 16:22:59 <davidwood> ack LeeF 16:23:30 <hsbauer> Leef: can we start on an agenda for f2f 16:23:30 <davidwood> q? 16:23:49 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking 16:23:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer 16:23:53 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking? 16:24:04 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (31%) 16:24:18 <davidwood> next agendum 16:24:31 <ivan> -> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/amsterdam.html is a good page to convince sandro et al to hang around... 16:24:44 <hsbauer> Topic: turtle task force 16:25:24 <hsbauer> david: who will be participating. discussion of mailing list asking for notes on this 16:25:53 <hsbauer> ... important task forces have some level of self organization. 16:26:06 <hsbauer> ... have someone to speak for them. 16:26:09 <AndyS> Step 1 -- people add names to TTL TF page 16:26:35 <davidwood> Input material to Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Inputs_Turtle 16:26:41 <hsbauer> ... most important to settle issue number one and deal with input material 16:27:07 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking? 16:27:18 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (19%), Guus_Schreiber (19%), Ivan (10%) 16:27:31 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF_interests 16:27:50 <hsbauer> Guus: can we ask for volunteers for spokespersons 16:27:57 <ivan> q+ 16:28:30 <ivan> q- 16:28:53 <hsbauer> ivan: I have contacted dave, no response. Eric T. is a possibility. 16:29:10 <SteveH> s/Eric T./Eric P./ 16:29:41 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking? 16:29:51 <sandro> hsbauer, that was Nathan 16:29:52 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (74%), AndyS (8%), Ivan (3%) 16:30:09 <sandro> webr3=Nathan, just to confuse you 16:30:30 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg 16:30:30 <AndyS> q+ 16:30:43 <hsbauer> afraid I missed the comment can someone summarize 16:30:45 <davidwood> ack andys 16:31:03 <gavinc> Would like to participate in the Turtle TF but don't really feel comfortable being the representative for it? 16:31:21 <hsbauer> andys: json task force has a list of names. Is there a difference between interest and participation. 16:31:45 <hsbauer> david: this may have not been a clear process for differentating. 16:31:54 <manu> q+ to volunteer to represent JSON TF 16:32:11 <hsbauer> Topic: JSON 16:32:22 <davidwood> JSON TF: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON 16:32:26 <hsbauer> david: we have participants, inputs and questions 16:32:52 <hsbauer> manu: I'm interested in acting as spokeperson, but may have a conflict of interest. 16:33:06 <PatHayes> I dont see a conflict of interest, quite the contrary. 16:33:16 <nathan> likewise, no conflict imo 16:33:32 <hsbauer> david: personal opinion, editing spec and coordinating task force are not a conflict of interest 16:33:42 <manu> ACTION: Manu to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. 16:33:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-09]. 16:33:53 <PatHayes> Nice try, but you got lumbered. 16:34:22 <hsbauer> manu: taking an action item to summarize postions on the mailing list for json 16:35:00 <hsbauer> manu: are we discussing task force tech issues here or just summarize issues here. 16:35:11 <hsbauer> david: up to the task force. 16:35:24 <Guus> q+ 16:35:29 <manu> q- 16:35:32 <hsbauer> ... clarify participants, coordinators is current issue 16:35:44 <manu> q+ to note that JSON-TF will need a separate call. 16:35:48 <ivan> q+ 16:36:14 <davidwood> ack Guus 16:36:16 <hsbauer> manu: json will need a separate call for a time 16:36:18 <manu> q- 16:36:52 <hsbauer> Guus: tech discussions are ok, but will be busy with admin for the first few weeks. 16:37:12 <davidwood> ack manu 16:37:12 <sandro> q? 16:37:17 <nathan> q+ to discuss tracker for TFs 16:37:20 <davidwood> ack ivan 16:37:25 <manu> q? 16:37:49 <davidwood> ack nathan 16:37:49 <Zakim> nathan, you wanted to discuss tracker for TFs 16:38:19 <hsbauer> ivan: setting up a separate call is possible 16:38:20 <manu> +1 to separate tracker entries by product 16:38:26 <AZ> +1 to ivan 16:38:33 <gavinc> +1 and they are already setup: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products 16:38:34 <PatHayes> +1 to ivan 16:38:49 <hsbauer> nathan: can issues be opened by the task force? 16:38:54 <ivan> q- 16:38:57 <sandro> +1 let TF's open issues for themselves 16:39:08 <sandro> q+ 16:39:14 <zwu2> I just signed up for the graph tf 16:39:38 <hsbauer> david: this is ok 16:40:15 <sandro> q- 16:40:26 <sandro> topic: Graphs TF 16:40:28 <hsbauer> david: tracker will take care of tracking for all 16:40:39 <hsbauer> Topic: Graph Task Force 16:40:51 <sandro> s/Graph/Graphs/ 16:41:13 <sandro> s/topic: Graphs TF// 16:41:20 <hsbauer> david: summarize immediate issues 16:41:40 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking? 16:41:44 <manu> I really liked Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text e-mail 16:41:47 <sandro> it's LeeF 16:41:51 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), LeeF (100%) 16:41:54 <Guus> suggest to have a wiki page with terms and their defs, as synthesis of ongoing discussion 16:42:27 <hsbauer> Leef: discussions on serializations, sharing, multiple blank nodes. 16:43:01 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC 16:43:02 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking? 16:43:13 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (4%), Ivan (4%) 16:43:43 <hsbauer> manu: httpRange-14 bound to come up at some point 16:43:59 <nathan> that's ISSUE-57 on the TAG now, and AWWSW TF covers too (I, nathan, work w/ JAR on that) 16:44:04 <manu> We should coordinate with Jonathan Rees on the W3C TAG and the SPARQL WG 16:44:06 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker re. sparql 16:44:16 <hsbauer> Leef: should liase with sparql working group asap 16:44:41 <sandro> lee: SPARQL WG is moving to Last Call with its notion of Graphs 16:44:55 <AlexHall> what is the specific issue wrt graphs and SPARQL wg? 16:45:00 <hsbauer> who is talking? 16:45:03 <manu> Folks will want to re-read: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ... really good stuff in there. 16:45:25 <PatHayes> Suggest that biggest issue might turn out to be, does a GET get the whole graph or can you find out how big the damn thing is first? That is a real issue, most of them are nomenclature. 16:45:41 <FabGandon> q+ to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph 16:45:50 <davidwood> q? 16:45:54 <manu> PatHayes, HEAD /graph ? 16:46:00 <hsbauer> Leef: if issues related to sparql wg are raised some contact should be made 16:46:01 <davidwood> ack FabGandon 16:46:01 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph 16:46:14 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/#http-get 16:46:24 <nathan> PatHayes, agree, there's also if the <u> refers to both the "subject" and the "graph" - tis a gotcha 16:46:38 <PatHayes> manu, I know , but it feels like a dangerous issue where one WG might close a door that another WG needs to have open. 16:46:43 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking? 16:46:55 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 16:47:07 <cygri> q+ 16:47:19 <AndyS> Also: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_graphstore (from SPARQL 1.1 Update) 16:47:26 <davidwood> +1 to PatHayer 16:47:30 <sandro> FabGandon: I think there's a mismatch about graph vs resource here, when you dereference. 16:47:32 <sandro> q+ 16:47:32 <hsbauer> FabGandon: some differences between practices especially around dereferencing. 16:47:36 <davidwood> s/Pathayer/PatHayes/ 16:48:01 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker. 16:48:03 <davidwood> ack cygri 16:48:09 <hsbauer> ... what people are doing when defrerencing a uri 16:48:19 <manu> I tend to see that most people get information about the resource they're dereferencing - the graph is the representation about the resource. 16:48:33 <hsbauer> cygri: opmitting what happens when you look up a uri 16:48:39 <hsbauer> thanks ivan 16:48:57 <manu> perhaps, that's naive - but that seems to be the data people are publishing now w/ RDFa. 16:49:01 <nathan> so, follow your nose is a pita we need to clarify soon, especially w/ graphs uris, lod, issue-57 on tag and so forth - not in charter? can we get away with /not/ getting consensus and agrement 16:49:17 <manu> and I really don't like 303 redirects for most use cases :/ 16:49:27 <hsbauer> cygri: looks up a uri on a person which leads to a document. one does a redirect and another gives an rdf:desc with is a graph 16:49:52 <PatHayes> Is a graph an IR? A g-box surely is, right? 16:49:54 <hsbauer> ... keep in mind that you shouldn't use the same uri for identifying person and graph. 16:49:59 <davidwood> ack sandro 16:50:01 <nathan> PatHayes, yes exactly 16:50:21 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking? 16:50:27 <cygri> hsbauer, it's sandro 16:50:32 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (70%), AndyS (4%), Ivan (20%) 16:50:47 <hsbauer> sandro: graph is used with considerable ambiguity 16:50:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text viewpoint 16:51:14 <hsbauer> ... proposed three terms in practice most often 16:51:32 <davidwood> In my view, a g-box is an IR. 16:51:33 <hsbauer> ... g-box is the container what sparql means 16:51:42 <hsbauer> ... g-snap 16:51:53 <PatHayes> Ahem. That is what the RDF specs say a graph is. 16:51:56 <hsbauer> ... g-text serialization 16:52:17 <manu> q+ to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal. 16:52:31 <LeeF> davidwood, I believe that is the view of the SPARQL RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol as well 16:52:33 <PatHayes> BTW, I entirely agree with sandro's analysis and his ghastly but usable terminology. 16:52:44 <davidwood> q? 16:52:48 <davidwood> ack manu 16:52:48 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal. 16:52:48 <sandro> sandro: explaining http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0092.html 16:53:01 <hsbauer> manu: like sandro's email. clarifies what we are talking about. 16:53:28 <cygri> q+ to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics 16:53:30 <PatHayes> Lets agree that g-snaps are RDF graphs, ie abstract sets. 16:53:33 <hsbauer> ... the terms may change but this is what we are talking about. 16:53:36 <davidwood> ack cygri 16:53:36 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics 16:54:06 <webr3> PatHayes, +1 yes lets, and not a REST "value" at some time - purely an RDF concept, abstract graph, set of triples 16:54:13 <hsbauer> cygri: rdf semantics g-snap? need clarification. 16:54:40 <hsbauer> ... triples or model theoritic interpretation. 16:54:53 <hsbauer> ... do these documents say the same thing. 16:54:57 <hsbauer> thanks 16:55:20 <hsbauer> PatHayes: model theory doesn't depend on the graph syntax. 16:55:40 <sandro> s/model/the model/ 16:55:44 <hsbauer> ... can be adapted 16:56:03 <hsbauer> ... we wanted a not to concrete definition 16:56:36 <hsbauer> ... feeling that we didn't want a central model attached to a particular style 16:57:27 <hsbauer> ... g-snaps instances of g-box -- apparently the mathematical version of the g-box 16:57:29 <manu> I thought g-snaps were supposed to be an non-serialized snapshot of a g-box 16:57:46 <hsbauer> ... g-box and g-text fit in the web arch story. 16:57:47 <webr3> manu, yes correct, abstract set of triples 16:58:04 <sandro> q? 16:58:19 <hsbauer> ... g-text is a serialization of the rdf-graph my understanding. 16:58:20 <cygri> thanks 16:58:26 <AZ> totally right, Pat 16:58:44 <mbrunati> .) 16:59:01 <manu> g-box is the REST Information Resource, it's state at a point in time is a g-snap... if you do an HTTP GET on the IR, you get a g-text. 16:59:06 <hsbauer> david: action item for pat to summarize the issue in an email 16:59:41 <manu> so, effectively graphs are just another type of IR - fits really well with Web Architecture. 16:59:48 <davidwood> q? 16:59:49 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation 16:59:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-03-09]. 17:00:11 <hsbauer> david: moving on from graph issue. 17:00:18 <webr3> I'll write up action 7 now then <yay> 17:00:25 <hsbauer> Topic: F2f agenda 17:01:03 <hsbauer> david: issues on our timeline 17:01:22 <hsbauer> ... first deliverable due in May. 17:01:27 <AndyS> q+ 17:01:33 <ivan> q+ 17:01:37 <sandro> q+ to clarify documents 17:01:46 <hsbauer> ... work out tf starting points and organization 17:01:55 <davidwood> ack AndyS 17:02:13 <sandro> andy: "Recommendation Set" ? 17:02:27 <hsbauer> andys: what do you mean by the rdf recommendation set? 17:02:39 <hsbauer> david: check the Charter 17:02:51 <davidwood> 4.1 Milestones 17:02:51 <davidwood> This section simply refers to “RDF Recommendation Set” as a collection of W3C Recommendations that together define the new version of RDF. The exact editorial structure of these documents is to be defined by the Working Group 17:02:55 <AndyS> q- 17:03:01 <PatHayes> Guus just vanished 17:03:03 <davidwood> ack ivan 17:04:06 <hsbauer> ivan: we have to clarify. what is the work ahead of us. explict charter work, remaining work from last time. 17:04:43 <PatHayes> There are several bugs in the sematnics document that need to be fixed. The sheer editing will take time, measured in at least weeks maybe months, given the need to check all changes. 17:04:53 <hsbauer> david: I agree. Ivan would you take action item to start the wiki for the f2f 17:05:20 <davidwood> action: Ivan to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content 17:05:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content [on Ivan Herman - due 2011-03-09]. 17:05:32 <davidwood> q? 17:05:38 <davidwood> ack Sandro 17:05:38 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to clarify documents 17:06:04 <hsbauer> sandro: no clear notion about how much change needs to be done to existing documents 17:06:15 <hsbauer> ... turtle is a new document 17:06:25 <hsbauer> ... are the graphs a new document 17:06:35 <hsbauer> ... json also a new document 17:06:35 <PatHayes> It seems clear that Concepts will need at least a thorough editing. 17:06:54 <PatHayes> Right. 17:07:26 <AndyS> Don't see how "TriG" fits [if appropriate] but /me assuming that it can fit in TTL if need be. 17:07:38 <hsbauer> david: updates needed, propose continue with existing and add turtle and json 17:07:50 <sandro> sandro: strawman proposal -- revise each existing document, add two more, JSON and Turtle 17:07:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's suggestion on creating new TURTLE and RDFinJSON documents, updating the rest. 17:08:12 <PatHayes> +1 to sandro 17:08:18 <webr3> manu, RDF in JSON or RDFable JSON ? v different 17:08:20 <manu> AndyS - I'd expect TRiG to be shoved into TURTLE. 17:08:25 <AndyS> q+ to ask about N-Triples 17:08:51 <PatHayes> galapagos? 17:08:59 <gavinc> Can it have a cape? 17:09:03 <manu> webr3 - RDFable JSON (not fond of just shoving RDF triples into a JSON format) 17:09:15 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking? 17:09:26 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SteveH (1%), davidwood (29%), PatH (22%), Sandro (19%), Ivan (5%) 17:09:29 <davidwood> ack AndyS 17:09:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about N-Triples 17:09:37 <sandro> sandro: Maybe the quads-turtle can be superturtle, with some extra features 17:10:08 <hsbauer> AndyS: not precisely defined for n-triples can it be under this banner 17:10:17 <PatHayes> Sounds like we need a 'various triples formats' document. Can this be in the primer? 17:10:46 <gavinc> +1 as N-Triples and N-Quads as a subset of Turtle 17:10:47 <hsbauer> ... hoping n-triples refinement in scope 17:11:09 <hsbauer> sandro: keep n-triples around 17:11:10 <webr3> we need registered media type for n-triples 17:11:12 <gavinc> One mime type would be nice. 17:11:17 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking? 17:11:18 <AlexHall> I think every implementation of N-Triples treats it as a subset of Turtle anyways, so I don't see much danger there 17:11:28 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (9%), Sandro (45%), AndyS (46%), Ivan (33%) 17:11:41 <AndyS> <s> <p> <o> . is different in N-Triples and Turtle 17:11:44 <PatHayes> utf-8 vs ascii is NICE?? 17:11:45 <SteveH> AlexHall, no, many treat it differently 17:12:01 <gavinc> Yeah, as Turtle is UTF-8 and NTriples is ASCII 17:12:21 <webr3> ascii-7 bit, all /text tree is us-ascii 7-bit .. 17:12:48 <sandro> andy: n-triples doesn't resolve uris, so <s> is a valid URI from its perspective, "s". 17:12:49 <hsbauer> AndyS: n-triples doesn't say anything about resolving uris. 17:13:09 <mischat> s/resolving uris/resolving relative uris/ 17:13:10 <hsbauer> david: gavin raised mime-type registration 17:13:20 <davidwood> q? 17:13:28 <hsbauer> ivan: unfinished mime-type reg in turtle 17:13:46 <AndyS> Very keen to not have N-Triples being text/plain 17:14:01 <sandro> +1 andy 17:14:07 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS 17:14:19 <hsbauer> david: closing for business. Adjourning. 17:14:34 <hsbauer> ... reminder to participate in task forces. 17:15:26 <hsbauer> ... scribe for next week Christopher Matthews? 17:15:27 <cmatheus> correct. yes. 17:15:33 <cmatheus> I 17:15:40 <hsbauer> ... matheus 17:15:44 <gavinc> AndyS, yeah: text/plain, application/n-triples, application/x-n-triples, text/n-triples, text/x-n-triples ... ah, NTriples 17:15:48 <cmatheus> I don't have full telephone access today. 17:16:01 <Zakim> -manu 17:16:02 <zwu2> thanks 17:16:03 <PatHayes> Bye. 17:16:04 <ivan> zakim, drop me 17:16:04 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected 17:16:04 <mbrunati> bye 17:16:05 <Zakim> -Ivan 17:16:05 <Zakim> -cygri 17:16:06 <Zakim> -Sandro 17:16:06 <Zakim> -mischat 17:16:06 <AZ> bye 17:16:08 <Zakim> -corby 17:16:10 <Zakim> -zwu2 17:16:11 <Zakim> -PatH 17:16:14 <Zakim> -webr3 17:16:17 <Zakim> -SteveH 17:16:18 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider 17:16:20 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber 17:16:22 <Zakim> -gavinc 17:16:26 <Zakim> -davidwood 17:16:28 <Zakim> -mbrunati 17:16:32 <Zakim> -AlexHall 17:16:34 <Zakim> -AndyS 17:16:36 <Zakim> -??P2 17:16:40 <Zakim> -FabGandon 17:16:42 <Zakim> -AZ 17:16:44 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg 17:17:47 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg 17:18:57 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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