Chatlog 2011-02-23

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# reconstructed by sandro -- we forgot to have RRSAgent present
<sandro> PRESENT: Alex Hall, Antoine Zimmermann, Axel Polleres, Christopher Matheus, Dan Brickley, David Wood, Dieter Fensel, Fabien Gandon, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Jean-François Baget, Manu Sporny, Matteo Brunati, Mischa Tuffield, Nathan Rixham, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Sandro Hawke, Scott Bauer, Souripriya Das, Thomas Steiner, Yves Raimond, Zhe Wu
15:51:23 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:51:31 <Zakim> + +33.4.67.92.aaaa
15:52:51 <Zakim> + +43.512.507.aabb
15:53:48 <Zakim> +davidwood
15:54:07 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
15:54:14 <Zakim> +??P8
15:54:19 <webr3> zakim, i am ??
15:54:19 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
15:54:21 <Zakim> +??P7
15:54:27 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:54:32 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:54:32 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:54:34 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:54:58 <mischat> zakim, i am ??P7
15:54:58 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:55:06 <JFB> 33.4.67.92 is Jean-François Baget, scribing...
15:55:07 <mischat> zakim mute me
15:55:12 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:55:13 <Zakim> + +33.4.72.43.aacc
15:55:14 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:55:40 <pfps> people should mute whenever possible
15:55:45 <AZ> zakim, +33.4.72.43.aacc is me
15:55:45 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:55:52 <mischat> zakim, unmute me
15:55:53 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
15:55:55 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:55:55 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:56:03 <AZ> zakim, mute me
15:56:04 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
15:56:06 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:56:06 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:56:11 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:56:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see +33.4.67.92.aaaa, +43.512.507.aabb, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan (muted), AZ (muted)
15:56:13 <JFB> zakim, +33.4.67.92.aaaa is me
15:56:14 <Zakim> +JFB; got it
15:56:59 <JFB>  zakim, who is on the phone?
15:56:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB, +43.512.507.aabb, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan (muted), AZ (muted)
15:57:47 <dfensel6_> +43.512.507 is dfensel6 (dieter fenel)
15:58:24 <dfensel6_> dfensel6 is my w3c nickname
15:58:35 <JFB> zakim, mute me
15:58:35 <Zakim> JFB should now be muted
15:58:52 <dfensel6_> I tried to save a character.
15:58:56 <mischat> zakim, 43.512.507 is dfensel6
15:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '43.512.507'
15:59:12 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aadd
15:59:21 <dfensel6_>  +43.512.507 is dfensel6 (dieter fensel)
#15:59:24 <mischat> member:zakim, 43.512.507.aabb is dfensel6
15:59:44 <mischat> zakim, 43.512.507.aabb is dfensel6
15:59:44 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '43.512.507.aabb'
15:59:47 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone
15:59:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', pfps
15:59:50 <Zakim> +Zhe_Wu
15:59:55 <gavinc> zakim, +1.707.861 is me
15:59:55 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
15:59:56 <manu1> zakim, code?
15:59:56 <Zakim> +??P18
15:59:58 <webr3> zakim, +43.512.507.aabb is dfensel6
15:59:58 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu1
16:00:00 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:00 <Zakim> +dfensel6; got it
16:00:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB (muted), dfensel6, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan (muted), AZ (muted), gavinc, Zhe_Wu, ??P18
16:00:05 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:00:05 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:00:06 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aaee
16:00:12 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
16:00:13 <gavinc> zakim, mute me
16:00:13 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
16:00:48 <zwu2> zakim, zwu2 is Zhe_Wu
16:00:48 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2, I do not recognize a party named 'zwu2'
16:00:50 <Zakim> +Guus
16:01:00 <AlexHall> zakim, aaee is me
16:01:00 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
16:01:02 <zwu2> zakim, Zhe_Wu is zwu2
16:01:02 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
16:01:08 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:01:08 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:01:16 <Zakim> +??P30
16:01:18 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:01:19 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P30
16:01:19 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
16:01:43 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
16:01:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB (muted), dfensel6, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan (muted), AZ (muted), gavinc (muted), zwu2 (muted), ??P18,
16:01:46 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, AxelPolleres, Guus, manu1, Sandro
16:01:52 <mbrunati> q+
16:01:57 <mbrunati> q-
16:02:03 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
16:02:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB (muted), dfensel6, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan (muted), AZ (muted), gavinc (muted), zwu2 (muted), ??P18,
16:02:06 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, AxelPolleres, Guus, manu1, Sandro
16:02:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see FabGandon, pchampin, AxelPolleres, zwu2, AlexHall, mbrunati, Guus, gavinc, tomayac, pfps, AZ, dfensel6_, hsbauer, JFB, domel, danbri, SteveH, ivan, mischat, cmatheus,
16:02:10 <Zakim> ... manu1, webr3, davidwood, yvesr, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:02:12 <Zakim> +[Sophia]
16:02:14 <Zakim> +??P34
16:02:19 <JFB> zakim, agenda?
16:02:19 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:02:21 <Zakim> 5. Establishment of initial task forces.  We need task forces for the obligatory pieces of work: Subgraphs, Turtle, JSON [from davidwood]
16:02:23 <mbrunati> zakim, i am ??P18
16:02:24 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
16:02:28 <FabGandon> Zakim, +[Sophia] is me
16:02:28 <Zakim> sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named '+[Sophia]'
16:02:38 <Zakim> -??P34
16:02:44 <FabGandon> Zakim, [Sophia] is me
16:02:44 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
16:03:00 <Zakim> + +1.404.978.aaff - is perhaps Dzung_Tran?
16:03:02 <JFB> zakim, agenda?
16:03:02 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:03:04 <Zakim> 5. Establishment of initial task forces.  We need task forces for the obligatory pieces of work: Subgraphs, Turtle, JSON [from davidwood]
16:03:15 <Zakim> +Souri
16:03:17 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
16:03:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB (muted), dfensel6, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan (muted), AZ (muted), gavinc (muted), zwu2 (muted), mbrunati,
16:03:21 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, AxelPolleres, Guus, manu1, Sandro, FabGandon, Dzung_Tran?, Souri
16:03:32 <JFB> on the call and muted
16:03:32 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
16:03:43 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (64%), mbrunati (4%), Guus (9%)
16:03:44 <JFB> zakim, unmute me
16:03:46 <Zakim> JFB should no longer be muted
16:04:04 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
16:04:04 <Zakim> +??P40
16:04:14 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dfensel6 (16%), davidwood (15%), JFB (21%), Guus (30%), ??P40 (9%)
16:04:21 <ivan> scribenick: JFB
16:04:23 <JFB> zakim, mute me
16:04:23 <Zakim> JFB should now be muted
16:04:28 <mbrunati> zakim, mute me
16:04:28 <Zakim> mbrunati should now be muted
16:04:37 <mbrunati> zakim, unmute me
16:04:37 <Zakim> mbrunati should no longer be muted
16:04:47 <sandro> zakim, Guus has DanBri
16:04:47 <Zakim> +DanBri; got it
<sandro> topic: Admin
16:05:11 <JFB> 2nd telecon, agenda + 1 msg from peter
16:05:11 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P40
16:05:11 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P40', yvesr
16:05:15 <pfps> Minutes are fine.
16:05:17 <sandro> davidwood, please try zakim muting yourself -- I think you might be the source of echo.
16:05:28 <davidwood> Zakim, mute me
16:05:28 <Zakim> davidwood should now be muted
16:05:32 <JFB> objections to minutes from last agenda ?
16:05:34 <davidwood> The minutes are fine
16:05:43 <JFB> minutes accepted
16:05:44 <mbrunati> minutes ok
16:05:49 <sandro> (yes, davidwood, that did it.   you might try calling back.)
16:05:54 <davidwood> ok
16:06:01 <JFB> no actions from previous telecon
16:06:02 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P40 is yvesr
16:06:03 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
16:06:03 <Zakim> -davidwood
16:06:07 <danbri_> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0040.html
16:06:19 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
16:06:21 <Zakim> +davidwood
16:06:30 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dfensel6 (16%), Guus (46%)
16:06:30 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/ tracker link
<sandro> subtopic: Raising Issues
16:06:32 <JFB> link to the issue tracker  (http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/)
16:06:54 <sandro> nope, actually I think dfensel6_ is that source of echo.   Dieter, can you try "zakim, mute me" ?
16:07:05 <dfensel6_> zakim, mute me
16:07:05 <Zakim> sorry, dfensel6_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:07:07 <JFB> issue tracker: 1st step raise an issue
16:07:19 <JFB> becomes open when accepted at telecon
16:07:46 <sandro> zakim, dfensel6 is dfensel6_
16:07:46 <Zakim> +dfensel6_; got it
16:07:55 <sandro> zakim, mute dfensel6_
16:07:55 <Zakim> dfensel6_ should now be muted
16:08:05 <JFB> use the products when defining an issue
16:08:16 <JFB> question?
16:08:22 <mischat> any questions about the issue tracker ?
16:08:52 <pfps> change "General" to "Misc"?
16:08:54 <JFB> question (who?) what for RDF general ?
16:09:04 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
16:09:04 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
16:09:07 <JFB> answer: anything that does not fit anywhere else
16:09:14 <Zakim> -mischat
16:09:24 <davidwood> chair Guus
16:09:29 <sandro> s/question (who?) /sandro:/
16:09:39 <davidwood> chair: Guus
16:09:52 <sandro> s/answer:/guus: answer:/
16:09:53 <JFB> Guus: (just to give everything a problem)
16:09:56 <Zakim> +??P7
16:09:57 <AxelPolleres> I assume issues are in general added by chairs only? Can we refer to particular products in mails, etc.?
16:10:01 <JFB> zakim, unmute me
16:10:01 <Zakim> JFB should no longer be muted
16:10:10 <mischat> zakim, ??P7 is me
16:10:10 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
16:10:14 <mischat> zakim, mute me
16:10:14 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:10:17 <JFB> zakim, mute me
16:10:17 <Zakim> JFB should now be muted
16:10:19 <JFB> zakim, unmute me
16:10:19 <Zakim> JFB should no longer be muted
16:10:34 <JFB>  zakim, who is on the phone?
16:10:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB, dfensel6_ (muted), Scott_Bauer, webr3, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, AZ (muted), gavinc (muted), zwu2 (muted), mbrunati, AlexHall, AxelPolleres, Guus, manu1,
16:10:37 <Zakim> ... Sandro, FabGandon, Dzung_Tran?, Souri, yvesr, davidwood, mischat (muted)
16:10:38 <Zakim> Guus has DanBri
16:10:39 <davidwood> AxelPolleres: Issues may be added by anyone, but will be discussed as a group.
16:10:40 <manu1> q+ to ask if it's okay to raise issues now?
#16:10:49 <JFB>Topic: Task Forces
16:10:51 <ivan> zakim, mischat has also Jeremy
16:10:51 <Zakim> +also, Jeremy; got it
16:10:56 <AxelPolleres> david, ok
#16:11:05 <JFB> Turtle
16:11:17 <danbri> peter's mail as mentioned by Guus - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0050.html
16:12:03 <JFB> Guus: All group members can raise an issue, then it will be discussed at telecon
16:12:13 <sandro> guus: Let's go ahead and let people RAISE issues themselves, but don't go too crazy with it.
16:12:17 <mischat> zakim, ??P7 is me
16:12:17 <Zakim> I already had ??P7 as mischat, mischat
16:12:38 <Zakim> +PatH
16:12:52 <JFB>Topic: Turtle Task Force
16:13:04 <AxelPolleres> q+ how to relate to products in Issues/mails?
16:13:10 <sandro> (Note that RAISING an issue does not make it OPEN.   The chairs turn RAISED issues into OPEN ones)
16:13:14 <ivan> ack manu1
16:13:14 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to ask if it's okay to raise issues now?
16:13:18 <danbri> Re Turtle, http://www.w3.org/2009/12/rdf-ws/papers/ws11 "Turtle needs better alignment with the SPARQL triples pattern language since there are differences in QName / Curie formats as well as some other minor differences."
16:13:20 <ivan> ack how
16:13:20 <Zakim> how, you wanted to relate to products in Issues/mails?
16:13:34 <danbri> in http://www.dajobe.org/2004/01/turtle/2006-12-04/#sec-diff-sparql differences with sparql are listed; in http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/turtle/ (later doc) not so much detail.
16:13:44 <yvesr> danbri: and prefix definitions
16:13:53 <manu1> +1 for using the TURTLE Team Submission as the starting point.
16:13:56 <danbri> ah no, it's here http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/turtle/#sec-diff-sparql
16:14:00 <ivan> q+
16:14:07 <yvesr> +1
16:14:41 <webr3> ed draft: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/
16:14:47 <JFB> (who's speaking?)
16:14:50 <danbri> q+ to ask if we have SPARQL WG members here; could SPARQL 1.1 and Turtle converge with a few tweaks on either side?
16:14:59 <JFB> thks
16:15:21 <Zakim> +??P20
16:15:26 <mischat> that page is not public
16:15:30 <AxelPolleres> danbri, the prefix syntax is the major diff, isn't it?
16:15:59 <cmatheus> zakim, ??P20 is me
16:15:59 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it
16:16:05 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/ -> Insufficient Access Privileges
16:16:06 <danbri> (eg. literal subjects are permitted in sparql too, in theory at least)
16:16:07 <webr3> see D changes too
16:16:19 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#sec-grammar-parsing
16:16:26 <mischat> Section 4.5 ^^
16:16:45 <yvesr> manu1: works for me
16:16:59 <JFB> Section 4.5 of  http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#sec-grammar-parsing Parsing turtle
16:17:09 <sandro> Here is a color-coded diff: http://www.w3.org/People/Sandro/turtle-diff
16:17:58 <JFB> X suggests revised version of that document as a atsarting point
16:18:07 <ivan> s/X/Pat/
16:18:08 <JFB> (pat hayes)
16:18:10 <sandro> PROPOSED: use http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/ as the starting point for the Turtle work
16:18:15 <manu1> +1
16:18:17 <ivan> +1
16:18:18 <webr3> +1
16:18:18 <FabGandon> +1
16:18:20 <gavinc> +q
16:18:21 <JFB> +1
16:18:21 <danbri> +1
16:18:22 <mbrunati> +1
16:18:22 <tomayac> +1
16:18:23 <ivan> ack ivan
16:18:23 <mischat> +1
16:18:26 <AZ> +1
16:18:28 <sandro> RESOLVED: use http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/ as the starting point for the Turtle work
16:18:30 <yvesr> +1
16:18:37 <JFB> accepted
16:18:50 <gavinc> -q
16:18:52 <JFB> zakim, mute me
16:18:52 <Zakim> JFB should now be muted
16:19:17 <sandro> manu1, there is something bizarre going on with access control.   Try http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/Overview.html
16:19:18 <danbri> ack danbri?
16:19:26 <AxelPolleres> q+
16:19:33 <ivan> ack danbri
16:19:33 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask if we have SPARQL WG members here; could SPARQL 1.1 and Turtle converge with a few tweaks on either side?
16:19:43 <mischat> SteveH is
16:19:47 <danbri> audible?
16:19:50 <mischat> here and on both groups
16:19:55 <yvesr> NickH is
16:19:58 <danbri> great
16:19:59 <sandro> danbri: do we have SPARQL folks in this WG?
16:20:02 <Souri> I am
16:20:02 <JFB> Is there any SPARQL 1.1 members in the WG?
16:20:10 <ivan> ack AxelPolleres
16:20:27 <JFB> I don't hear anything....
16:20:34 <sandro> AxelPolleres: Me, LeeF, Souri, (Sandro)
16:20:41 <danbri> axelpolleres - you are a little quiet
16:21:14 <ivan> q+
16:21:27 <JFB> Axel, I already got volume problems... now I don't hear anything
16:21:28 <pfps> It would be *very* nice if the two syntaxes aligned completely.
16:21:31 <mischat> +1 to danbri's pov
16:21:34 <davidwood> +1
16:21:35 <FabGandon> +1 to align Turtle and SPARQL 1.1
16:21:42 <AxelPolleres> I'd propose to go for SPARQL's prefix syntax :-)
16:21:56 <yvesr> that'll break a lot of parsers though...
16:21:57 <pfps> axel: SPARQL syntax and (our) Turtle syntax should align
16:22:00 <JFB> Aligning sparql1.1 and turtle
16:22:26 <sandro> ISSUE: Is TURTLE the same as SPARQL 1.1 triple syntax?
16:22:26 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-1 - Is TURTLE the same as SPARQL 1.1 triple syntax?  ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/1/edit .
16:22:27 <PatHayes> +1 to dan's point. And it applies not just to syntx details but also to terminology. Ideally, one of these specs should simply reference the other as normative.
16:22:28 <ivan> q-
16:22:36 <JFB> is turtle the sandrome as sparql 1.1 turtle syntax?
16:22:36 <ivan>  Note: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#sec-diff-sparql
16:22:55 <ivan> q+
16:23:00 <AxelPolleres> q?
16:23:30 <ivan> q-
16:23:37 <JFB> Guus: we'll move to this on the next weeks
16:23:46 <AxelPolleres> should be noted that the grammaer in SPARQL1.1 is practically frozen at this point... so if changed form SPARQL's side would be needed, then they'd need to be raised ASAP
16:24:20 <sandro> ivan: Eric Prud'hommeaux was looking at the comparison to SPARQL.   The IRIs seem to be the difference.   (aside from PREFIX, which is an obvious difference.)   And whole IRI is a general issue for this group.
16:24:21 <mischat> +1 to ivan
16:24:32 <JFB> Dan: the syntax with ??? is the main issue, central to this WG
16:24:40 <JFB> IRI
16:24:44 <danbri> rrsagent, pointer?
16:24:50 <sandro> s/???/IRI/
16:24:51 <ivan> s/Dan:/Ivan:/
16:25:01 <sandro> s/Dan/Ivan/
16:25:08 <sandro> zakim, where is cygri?
16:25:08 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not understand your question
16:25:09 <Zakim> -mischat
16:25:16 <sandro> zakim, is cygri here?
16:25:16 <Zakim> sandro, I do not see Cygri anywhere
16:25:19 <AxelPolleres> ... would be good if all the points that are relevant here would be collected and discussed soon.
16:25:21 <AlexHall> i'm here
16:25:28 <PatHayes> Alexs point is important. We should rapidly seek any likely future point where our needs might cause us to deviate from SPARQL syntax and bring that to the front of our queue.
16:25:32 <AxelPolleres> (I can ping cygri)
16:25:44 <PatHayes> Axel's point, sorry.
16:25:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-rdf-wg-irc
16:25:58 <Zakim> +??P7
16:26:17 <mischat> zakim, ??P7 is me
16:26:17 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
16:26:18 <gavinc> Did I miss how we were supposed to "Sign up" for a Task Force?
16:26:21 <mischat> zakim, mute me
16:26:21 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:26:38 <JFB> Signing up for the task forces
16:27:04 <sandro> yes, gavinc, the chairs asked us to do that.   we're still discovering what that means....
16:27:26 <gavinc> Andy sent regrets last week
16:27:42 <JFB> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:27:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB (muted), dfensel6_ (muted), Scott_Bauer, webr3, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, AZ (muted), gavinc (muted), zwu2 (muted), mbrunati, AlexHall, AxelPolleres,
16:27:46 <Zakim> ... Guus, manu1, Sandro, FabGandon, Dzung_Tran?, Souri, yvesr, davidwood, PatH, cmatheus, mischat (muted)
16:27:48 <Zakim> Guus has DanBri
16:27:59 <zwu2> I will make a decision a bit later
16:28:24 <JFB> decide rapidly if we want to invite other experts
16:28:29 <yvesr> inviting dajobe as an invited expert?
16:28:46 <danbri> +1 on dajobe if he has time
16:28:59 <yvesr> ivan: good
16:29:22 <danbri> q?
16:29:41 <JFB> Topic: JSON Task Force
16:29:46 <Zakim> -dfensel6_
16:29:52 <JFB> issue: identifying a document
16:29:52 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2 - Identifying a document ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2/edit .
16:30:03 <manu1> q+ to suggest discussion and then possibly JSON-LD spec.
16:30:26 <yvesr> talis json as a starting point
16:31:23 <JFB> Guus: as a personal opinion , Talis
16:31:41 <Zakim> +dfensel6_
16:31:44 <JFB> serialization is less useful than ...
16:32:16 <JFB> we should aim at the web authoring community
16:32:33 <AZ> s/Guus/davidwood/
16:32:37 <gavinc> That does seem to cross the boundries with a possible recharter of the RDFa WG?
16:33:16 <webr3> q+ to say we have two needs
16:33:20 <JFB> Manu: basic questions, then decide which document
16:33:35 <JFB> get rdf into hands of non rdf people
16:33:37 <tomayac> +1 for focusing on john doe web dev, do not req. rdf knowledge imho.
16:33:44 <PatHayes> David: are your two options necessarily divergent? Or can we do both?
16:34:11 <JFB> give a limited subset to rdf developers
16:34:24 <sandro> s/David:/David,/
16:34:32 <PatHayes> Tnx
16:34:47 <PatHayes> David, see earlier IRC line.
16:34:55 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
16:35:09 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (19%), AxelPolleres (5%)
16:35:29 <davidwood> PatHayes: We could do both, if we want to serve both the SemWeb and Web author communities.  That seems to me to be within the charter (and possibly a good idea).
16:35:44 <JFB> sandro: ? your view on your input and lightweight json
16:35:45 <webr3> q-
16:35:59 <cmatheus> +1 pat
16:36:04 <webr3> q+
16:36:08 <gavinc> Does the JSON syntax need to be the easy to use form?
16:36:09 <manu1> q-
16:36:20 <PatHayes> Todays burden is tomorrow's opportunity :-)
16:36:20 <JFB> Manu: limited subset to give to RDF developers, that's the important point
16:36:45 <JFB>  zakim, who is talking?
16:36:56 <Zakim> JFB, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: webr3 (99%)
16:37:19 <JFB> Nathan: simple object view of rdf
16:37:20 <sandro> sandro: I think the most import thing is is giving JSON users easy access to RDF
16:37:42 <Guus> q?
16:37:49 <ivan> ack webr3
16:37:50 <manu1> I have strong feelings against another full-blown serialization of RDF in JSON (machine-optimized version).
16:37:52 <JFB> one version for machines, one for humans
16:38:17 <PatHayes> sandro, I agree, but hope that this could be a step towards a fuller serialization rather than incompatible with it.
16:38:30 <manu1> I think TURTLE is a fantastic full-blown serialization of RDF (that is both human and machine-optimized) - I don't think JSON needs to re-invent that wheel.
16:39:02 <davidwood> sandro: It would be nice to have one OWL, too :)
16:39:06 <yvesr> maybe the answer is to not 'restrict' json but rather add a optional 'uri' attribute on JSON objects allowing to extract RDF from JSON? (GRDDL for JSON?)
16:39:35 <manu1> +1 to Sandro's point - we need to come up with something that can be minimal and scale to full-blown.
16:40:31 <sandro> manu1: Yes, JSON-LD has that design goal Sandro is talking about, where you can start small and simple, but it expands when you want full RDF.
16:40:34 <PatHayes> Sounds like we are all in violent agreement.
16:40:56 <JFB> Guus: take another week to discuss contribute
16:40:56 <gavinc> As long as we don't mention prefixes ;)
16:41:04 <webr3> PatHayes, it does - all have the same end goals
16:41:08 <Zakim> -mischat
16:41:22 <manu1> I also want to point out that there are some ugly things in JSON-LD - the basics work, but it's not done (because we wanted input from RDF WG).
16:41:32 <JFB> Then we will take the starting point that best fits our goals
16:41:39 <JFB> in one or two weeks
16:41:44 <sandro> guus: In the next week or two, let's decide on a starting point.
16:42:04 <Zakim> +??P3
16:42:16 <mischat> zakim , ??P3 is me
16:42:20 <mischat> zakim, mute me
16:42:20 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:42:40 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON
16:42:45 <mischat> zakim, ??P3 is me
16:42:45 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
16:42:48 <mischat> zakim, mute me
16:42:48 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:42:49 <manu1> (I don't have the link to the big page yet)
16:43:13 <JFB> Will contribute to the JSON wiki: Nathan, manu, Andy?, ???
16:43:22 <ivan> s/???/Thomas/
16:43:27 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF_interests
16:43:54 <JFB> + david and sandro
16:44:16 <cmatheus> I also volunteer to be in on JSON task force
16:44:26 <JFB> + cmatheus
16:44:32 <mbrunati> clear
16:45:02 <JFB>Topic: Graphs Task Force
16:45:11 <AlexHall> q+
16:45:16 <JFB> a bit more complicated
16:45:58 <manu1> q+ to chat about GRAPH work
16:46:01 <PatHayes> q+
16:46:16 <JFB> questions we should ask?
16:46:17 <gavinc> Part of the issue may be that even without a spec people have been using them? And SPARQL does have a spec for how GRAPH works with it?
16:46:17 <danbri> q+ to characterise the sparql approach as 'wrapping something around RDF-as-is'
16:46:37 <sandro> q?
16:46:47 <gavinc> Jeremy is under the weather
16:46:49 <danbri> q?
16:47:01 <ivan> ack AlexHall
16:47:03 <JFB> Alex:
16:47:09 <pfps> pfps:  I'm not particularly happy with any of the starting documents for graphs.
16:47:31 <sandro> AlexHall: I don't see a clear statement of what the problem we're trying to solve is
16:47:34 <JFB> what is the pb we're trying to solve?
16:47:36 <pfps> +1 to AlexHall
16:47:40 <sandro> +1 AlexHall Let's Start with Use Cases
16:47:46 <PatHayes> +1 to AlexHall
16:47:53 <pfps> q+
16:47:54 <webr3> +1 to Axel (andFabgandon)
16:48:11 <pfps> q+ to try to figure out *why* we are going beyond triples
16:48:13 <yvesr> is SPARQL actually properly defining graphs anywhere?
16:48:13 <sandro> q+ to argue for use cases
16:48:18 <ivan> ack manu1
16:48:18 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to chat about GRAPH work
16:48:22 <JFB> Manu:
16:48:34 <JFB> digital signatures on data
16:48:50 <JFB> graphs that change over time
16:48:53 <sandro> manu: We want named graphs and graph literals for digital signatures, and in financial services we need a way to freeze graphs and talk about their change over time.
16:49:07 <AxelPolleres> one need is to have "hook" for saying something about graphs/sets or triples, such as signatures (as Manu) mentions, temporal and other annotaitons.... especially as the workshop has pointed in the direciton of dprecating reification
16:49:08 <sandro> manu: Nathan did a lot of work on this for the RDFa API
16:49:10 <pfps> here we go ... named graphs for attribution vs named graphs for intent
16:49:18 <danbri>  nearby: Toby's RDFa draft, http://buzzword.org.uk/2009/rdfa4/spec
16:49:29 <Guus> q?
16:49:36 <PatHayes> Also, there is right now no such thing as a graph that changes with time.
16:49:54 <danbri> q-
16:49:59 <sandro> PatHayes, there multiple meanings of the word "graph"  :-)
16:50:00 <JFB> we should go with an initial document (condensed use cases?)
16:50:18 <sandro> q-
16:50:30 <pfps> q- as the discussion is bringing up the divergence
16:50:34 <pfps> q-
16:50:45 <JFB> Pat Hayes:
16:51:06 <sandro> PatHayes: I want to emphasize what Alex said.      The various proposals are solving subtely different problems.
16:51:09 <JFB> various proposals solve different problems
16:51:10 <ivan> ack PatHayes
16:51:12 <sandro> q+
16:51:23 <JFB> need clarification
16:51:33 <manu1> I agree, we do need clarifications on basic RDF concepts - merging graphs, etc.
16:51:36 <pfps> +1 to Pat's call for clarification
16:51:38 <sandro> pat: if a graph gets merged into a big triple store, can I still find it
16:51:44 <JFB>  example: is a merged graph still an identifiable graph
16:51:53 <danbri> +1
16:51:53 <sandro> pat: and manu said graphs change with time, but they can't.
16:51:56 <gavinc> +1
16:52:03 <JFB> in rdf graphs are sets that don't change
16:52:04 <zwu2> +1 PatHayes
16:52:12 <sandro> q-
16:52:30 <FabGandon> +1 to use cases
16:52:32 <sandro> pat: we need a collection of clear use cases
16:52:41 <JFB> consensus on the usefulness of use cases?
16:52:42 <sandro> q?
16:52:44 <ivan> q+
16:52:48 <pfps> I don't know about a *large* collection of use cases - perhaps a moderate number of use cases would be better
16:52:51 <danbri>  nearby: w3c provenance incubator report: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/XGR-prov-20101214/ (and a WG is currently being proposed)
16:52:52 <PatHayes> Pfps, then you need to check your set theory books again :-)
16:53:02 <danbri> check the XG report for use cases
16:53:14 <sandro> I'd like a *small* and *succinct* collection of use cases, if that's at all possible.
16:53:21 <AxelPolleres> �Are you talking about mutable graph stores? please cf. the work in SPARQL1.1 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/ (note that this is an Editor's draft)
16:53:30 <yvesr> we (bbc) can contribute use-cases
16:53:34 <AxelPolleres> +1 to ivan
16:53:37 <JFB> can someone explain the way sparqle uses named grzaphs?
16:53:48 <AxelPolleres> q+
16:53:49 <PatHayes> pfps, maybe not, but right now thats what the specs say.
16:53:49 <sandro> s/can/ivan: can/
16:53:54 <FabGandon> +1 to link to GRAPH / FROM / FROM NAME
16:53:54 <sandro> ack ivan
16:54:02 <ivan> ack ivan
16:54:02 <Guus> ack
16:54:13 <JFB> Ivan, then...
16:54:15 <Guus> ack
16:54:28 <Guus> ack AxelPolleres
16:55:14 <sandro> AxelPolleres: SPARQL has datasets which are a good basis for this work.     Also, "changes of graphs" are addressed in SPARQL 1.1 update.
16:55:50 <JFB> action for use case format
16:55:50 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - for
16:56:14 <JFB> who?
16:56:16 <PatHayes> sandro, our work is to fix RDF. Right now the RDF specs say a grraph is a set. Sets do not change with time. SPARQL can say what it likes, but if it says a set can change with time then it is just flat wrong.
16:56:20 <JFB> Fabien
16:56:22 <gavinc> Willing to provide some use cases as well
16:56:36 <ivan> action: Guus to provide a use case format
16:56:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1 - Provide a use case format [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-02].
16:56:40 <JFB> and Gavin
16:57:21 <Zakim> -mischat
16:57:21 <JFB> Fabien, Manu and Gavin will contribute
16:57:26 <manu1> ACTION: Manu to provide use cases for temporal graphs and digital signatures on graphs.
16:57:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2 - Provide use cases for temporal graphs and digital signatures on graphs. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-02].
16:57:34 <ivan> action: Fabien to provide a use case for graphs
16:57:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3 - Provide a use case for graphs [on Fabien Gandon - due 2011-03-02].
16:57:38 <danbri> action: danbri, draft a use case for named graphs from FOAF work
16:57:38 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - danbri,
16:57:44 <danbri> action: danbri draft a use case for named graphs from FOAF work
16:57:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-4 - Draft a use case for named graphs from FOAF work [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-03-02].
16:58:15 <yvesr> action: yvesr draft a use case for named graphs from BBC work
16:58:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-5 - Draft a use case for named graphs from BBC work [on Yves Raimond - due 2011-03-02].
16:58:16 <gavinc> I'm happy to provide the ones from Jermey
16:58:18 <webr3> I'll take up an action to write a wiki page clarifying the difference in the approaches, and possible tie to the use cases others write up (which falls where) - if that's useful
16:58:23 <ivan> action: PatHayes to provide a use case for graphs
16:58:23 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - PatHayes
16:58:25 <Zakim> +Luca
16:58:25 <JFB> list of use cases: Jeremy, PAt
16:58:41 <pchampin> zakim, Luca is me
16:58:41 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
16:58:50 <ivan> action: hayes to provide use case for graphs
16:58:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-6 - Provide use case for graphs [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-03-02].
16:59:29 <webr3> action: nathan to write a wiki page clarifying the difference in the common approaches (named/literal)
16:59:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-7 - Write a wiki page clarifying the difference in the common approaches (named/literal) [on Nathan Rixham - due 2011-03-02].
16:59:39 <ivan> action: bauer to provide a use case for graphs
16:59:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-8 - Provide a use case for graphs [on Scott Bauer - due 2011-03-02].
16:59:54 <Zakim> +??P41
17:00:11 <mischat> zakim, ??P41 is me
17:00:12 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
17:00:13 <dfensel6_> yes
17:00:18 <mischat> zakim, mute me
17:00:18 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
17:00:20 <dfensel6_> zakim, unmute
17:00:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmute', dfensel6_
17:00:31 <dfensel6_> yes
17:00:42 <JFB> use cases: olivier corby will surely contribute, and fensel
17:01:01 <ivan> action: hall to provide a revelytrix use case for graphs
17:01:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Provide a revelytrix use case for graphs [on Alex Hall - due 2011-03-02].
17:01:08 <mischat> zakim, unmute me
17:01:12 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
17:01:24 <mischat> zakim, mute me
17:01:24 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
17:01:47 <ivan> action: pfps to come up with something on use cases for graphs
17:01:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Come up with something on use cases for graphs [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2011-03-02].
17:02:16 <yvesr> q+
17:02:20 <mischat> action: mischat to provide Garlik pov re: use-cases with SteveH
17:02:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Provide Garlik pov re: use-cases with SteveH [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2011-03-02].
17:02:58 <JFB> Nathan starts wikipage for use cases?
17:03:24 <AZ> I'm here
17:03:33 <AZ> zakim, unmute me
17:03:33 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted
17:03:38 <yvesr> q-
17:04:00 <ivan> q+
17:04:27 <AZ> zakim, mute me
17:04:27 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
17:04:39 <FabGandon> +1 to link to Provenance XG
17:04:49 <ivan> action: guus to talk to paul groth to get a provenance use case for graphs
17:04:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-12 - Talk to paul groth to get a provenance use case for graphs [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-02].
17:04:55 <mischat> +1 to liase with pgroth
17:05:11 <webr3> q.. i can still add use cases without taking on an action to do so, yes?
17:06:13 <PatHayes> I am muted. I swear, I am muted.
17:06:28 <JFB> Other problems to address?
17:08:18 <danbri> issue: Between us, we need to study the feedback we got via http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/ on the previous round of specs (and errata)
17:08:18 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-3 - Between us, we need to study the feedback we got via http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/ on the previous round of specs (and errata) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/3/edit .
17:08:23 <Zakim> -yvesr
17:08:24 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:08:24 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:08:26 <Zakim> -PatH
17:08:29 <mbrunati> ok, bye
17:08:30 <Zakim> -dfensel6_
17:08:32 <Zakim> -manu1
#17:08:34 <Zakim> -Dzung_Tran?
17:08:35 <AZ> bye
17:08:36 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:08:40 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:08:42 <ivan> zakim, drop me
17:08:42 <Zakim> -Souri
17:08:44 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:08:46 <Zakim> -Guus
17:08:50 <Zakim> -cmatheus
17:08:52 <Zakim> -JFB
17:08:55 <Zakim> -webr3
17:08:56 <Zakim> -gavinc
17:08:58 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
17:09:01 <Zakim> -mbrunati
17:09:02 <Zakim> -mischat
17:09:05 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
17:09:06 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:09:08 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:09:10 <Zakim> -AZ
17:09:12 <Zakim> -FabGandon
17:09:14 <Zakim> -pchampin
17:09:16 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
17:09:19 <Zakim> Attendees were davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, AZ, JFB, +1.707.861.aadd, gavinc, +1.443.212.aaee, AxelPolleres, AlexHall, zwu2, Sandro, manu1, mbrunati,
17:09:21 <Zakim> ... FabGandon, +1.404.978.aaff, Souri, DanBri, yvesr, dfensel6_, also, Jeremy, PatH, cmatheus, mischat, pchampin
17:12:28 <sandro> JFB, there was a mistake made in the setup for the meeting which will complicate the next step with scribing -- I'll take care of it, then send you email.
17:12:41 <sandro> (not your mistake -- a chairs/staff mistake)
17:13:09 <danbri> (rrsagent missing?)
17:13:22 <sandro> yep  :)
17:13:25 <davidwood> ugh!
17:13:28 <davidwood> Sorry
17:13:39 <davidwood> Thanks, Sandro
17:16:53 <danbri> re json, ... do / in URIs need to be escaped?
17:17:06 <danbri> i've seen http:\/\/ but not sure if mandatory
17:18:04 <webr3> danbri, in JSON yes, but many author JSON as JS objects then JSON.encode it (which does that)
17:18:27 <sandro> danbri, you mean quotes are not being used?
17:19:39 <danbri> with quotes
17:20:13 <danbri> i guess i saw some examples without the escaping
17:20:26 <webr3> well, it's optional infact
17:20:38 <danbri> gotta run
17:20:39 <webr3> but \ always needs encoded (not /)
17:21:13 <webr3> just for anybody following valid: { "foo": "http://example.org/" }
17:22:12 <webr3> also valid: { "foo": "http:\/\/example.org\/" }
17:22:38 <webr3>  invalid: { "foo": "\wrong slash\" }
17:23:16 <davidwood> yeah, ok