RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 13 February 2013

Present
Ted Thibodeau, Arnaud Le Hors, Manu Sporny, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Guus Schreiber, Patrick Hayes, Steve Harris, Gregg Kellogg, David Wood, Richard Cyganiak, Markus Lanthaler, Thomas Baker, Antoine Zimmermann
Scribe
Manu Sporny, Eric Prud'hommeaux
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. add text [[ Note that concatenation of Turtle files does not necessarily produce the RDF graph merge of the two serialized graphs and can lead to unexpected results. For instance, @base may change the BASE URI, re-used blank node labels will be merged, and @prefixes may differ. ]]" to http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#sec-parsing-example link
  2. in accordance with our recollection of earlier decisions, the WG had elected to keep the section on "Turtle in XHMTL " as a non-normative appendix in the Turtle spec link
Topics
16:01:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/13-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/13-rdf-wg-irc

16:01:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

16:01:25 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

16:01:25 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

16:01:26 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:01:26 <trackbot> Date: 13 February 2013
16:01:53 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:01:53 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus

16:01:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, tbaker, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, TallTed, SteveH, yvesr_, Arnaud, trackbot, mischat, manu1, manu, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see PatH, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, tbaker, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, TallTed, SteveH, yvesr_, Arnaud, trackbot, mischat, manu1, manu, sandro, ericP

16:02:25 <PatH> Pat will get on the call when his phone has charged up a little, about 3 minutes.

Patrick Hayes: Pat will get on the call when his phone has charged up a little, about 3 minutes.

16:02:46 <TallTed> Zakim, this is 73394

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, this is 73394

16:02:47 <Zakim> ok, TallTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, TallTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

16:02:53 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

16:02:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see no one

16:02:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, tbaker, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, TallTed, SteveH, yvesr_, Arnaud, trackbot, mischat, manu1, manu, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see PatH, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, tbaker, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, TallTed, SteveH, yvesr_, Arnaud, trackbot, mischat, manu1, manu, sandro, ericP

16:03:07 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

16:03:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see no one

16:03:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, tbaker, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, TallTed, SteveH, yvesr_, Arnaud, trackbot, mischat, manu1, manu, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see PatH, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, tbaker, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, TallTed, SteveH, yvesr_, Arnaud, trackbot, mischat, manu1, manu, sandro, ericP

16:03:55 <tbaker> Tom is on the phone

Thomas Baker: Tom is on the phone

16:05:00 <Arnaud> zakim, mute me

Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, mute me

16:05:00 <Zakim> sorry, Arnaud, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Arnaud, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

16:05:07 <manu> zakim, reboot

Manu Sporny: zakim, reboot

16:05:07 <Zakim> I don't understand 'reboot', manu

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'reboot', manu

16:05:37 <manu> scribenick: manu

(Scribe set to Manu Sporny)

16:05:40 <manu> scribe: manu
16:06:42 <manu> Proposal to accept minutes from last week, any objections?

Proposal to accept minutes from last week, any objections?

16:06:54 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

16:07:00 <manu> No objections. Minutes from last week accepted.

No objections. Minutes from last week accepted.

16:07:09 <ericP> Zakim, [GVoice] is me

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, [GVoice] is me

16:07:09 <Zakim> sorry, ericP, I do not recognize a party named '[GVoice]'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ericP, I do not recognize a party named '[GVoice]'

16:07:22 <manu> Guus: Let's keep the the call short today, 45 minute call today.

Guus Schreiber: Let's keep the the call short today, 45 minute call today.

16:07:48 <manu> Topic: Action Item Review

1. Action Item Review

16:07:57 <manu> Guus: Action 220 - Eric, update? Done?

Guus Schreiber: ACTION-220 - Eric, update? Done?

16:08:01 <manu> ericp: done

Eric Prud'hommeaux: done

16:08:41 <manu> ericp: I ran into some challenges, there was a comment where we didn't talk to the commenter. It was about resetting prefix/base. Without those, I have not been able to publish TURTLE as a CR.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I ran into some challenges, there was a comment where we didn't talk to the commenter. It was about resetting prefix/base. Without those, I have not been able to publish TURTLE as a CR.

16:09:02 <manu> guus: We'll review that a bit later, we would like to deal with this tomorrow. Your action item is completed.

Guus Schreiber: We'll review that a bit later, we would like to deal with this tomorrow. Your action item is completed.

16:09:38 <gkellogg> ISSUE-225?

Gregg Kellogg: ISSUE-225?

16:09:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-225 does not exist.

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-225 does not exist.

16:09:45 <manu> guus: Extension request with TURTLE publication date? I can do that one. Action 214 is done.

Guus Schreiber: Extension request with TURTLE publication date? I can do that one. ACTION-214 is done.

16:09:46 <ericP> action-225?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ACTION-225?

16:09:46 <trackbot> ACTION-225 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to update extension request with Turtle publication dates -- due 2013-01-30 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-225 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to update extension request with Turtle publication dates -- due 2013-01-30 -- OPEN

16:09:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/225

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/225

16:10:04 <manu> guus: Closing Pat's action 214

Guus Schreiber: Closing Pat's ACTION-214

16:11:14 <Arnaud> next week? I thought w3m only meets every other week

Arnaud Le Hors: next week? I thought w3m only meets every other week

16:11:20 <manu> Present: Ted, Arnaud, Manu, EricP, Guus, PatH, SteveH, Gregg, DavidWood, cygri, markus, tbaker, AZ
16:12:02 <manu> guus: The extension request is in process, we'll continue until we hear back from them.

Guus Schreiber: The extension request is in process, we'll continue until we hear back from them.

16:12:50 <manu> Present+ tombaker

Present+ tombaker

16:12:54 <manu> Present+ cygri

Present+ cygri

16:13:18 <SteveH> Zakim, who's on the phone?

Steve Harris: Zakim, who's on the phone?

16:13:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see no one

16:13:40 <manu> Present+ markus

Present+ markus

16:13:55 <PatH> what issue?

Patrick Hayes: what issue?

16:13:56 <manu> Guus: Should we discuss ISSUE-107

Guus Schreiber: Should we discuss ISSUE-107

16:14:02 <cygri> ISSUE-107?

Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-107?

16:14:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open

16:14:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107

16:14:05 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-107: Revised definition of blank nodes

2. ISSUE-107: Revised definition of blank nodes

16:14:12 <ericP> scribenick: ericP

(Scribe set to Eric Prud'hommeaux)

16:14:50 <markus> zakim, who's on the phone?

Markus Lanthaler: zakim, who's on the phone?

16:14:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see no one

16:15:38 <ericP> manu: related to issue-107, JSON-LD serializes multiple graphs to RDF permitting the serializer to assign blank node labels for graphs

Manu Sporny: related to ISSUE-107, JSON-LD serializes multiple graphs to RDF permitting the serializer to assign blank node labels for graphs

16:16:18 <manu>  datasetid:XYZ

Manu Sporny: datasetid:XYZ

16:16:19 <ericP> ... we got pushback from RDF-WG so we're working on a way that creates something like local IRIs dataset:foo

... we got pushback from RDF-WG so we're working on a way that creates something like local IRIs dataset:foo

16:16:23 <manu>  graph:XYZ

Manu Sporny: graph:XYZ

16:16:27 <cygri> <#XYZ>

Richard Cyganiak: <#XYZ>

16:17:09 <ericP> ... we don't want to use fragment ids 'cause since we're using HTTP URLs, fragIDs give these graphs a global name

... we don't want to use fragment ids 'cause since we're using HTTP URLs, fragIDs give these graphs a global name

16:17:39 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:17:43 <ericP> q+

q+

16:17:44 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:17:44 <ericP> q-

q-

16:18:03 <Guus> ack PatH

Guus Schreiber: ack PatH

16:18:35 <ericP> PatH: after reading the emails, i'm slightly puzzled by why not using fragIDs

Patrick Hayes: after reading the emails, i'm slightly puzzled by why not using fragIDs

16:18:51 <ericP> ... a fragID is really a local identifier

... a fragID is really a local identifier

16:18:54 <manu> q+

Manu Sporny: q+

16:19:38 <ericP> ... it seems like the perfect solution responding to the issues that were on the mailing list

... it seems like the perfect solution responding to the issues that were on the mailing list

16:20:27 <TallTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

16:20:32 <manu> ack manu

Manu Sporny: ack manu

16:21:12 <ericP> manu: anyone have a concearn with the fragID being tacked onto the IRI and creating permanent ids?

Manu Sporny: anyone have a concearn with the fragID being tacked onto the IRI and creating permanent ids?

16:21:21 <Guus>  tom: can you chair?

Guus Schreiber: tom: can you chair?

16:21:40 <ericP> TallTed: because my IRI has a fragid today, doesn't mean it will tomorrow

Ted Thibodeau: because my IRI has a fragid today, doesn't mean it will tomorrow

16:21:56 <ericP> ... this will happen forever

... this will happen forever

16:21:57 <manu> [{'@graph': { ...}}, {'@graph': { ...}}] --> what is the name given for each graph name when converted to RDF?

Manu Sporny: [{'@graph': { ...}}, {'@graph': { ...}}] --> what is the name given for each graph name when converted to RDF?

16:21:59 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:22:10 <TallTed> ack me

Ted Thibodeau: ack me

16:22:44 <tbaker> yes, can chair

Thomas Baker: yes, can chair

16:22:49 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:23:19 <ericP> manu: this is a dataset that has two graphs, but they are unnamed. we don't force names in JSON, but serializing as RDF does require names

Manu Sporny: this is a dataset that has two graphs, but they are unnamed. we don't force names in JSON, but serializing as RDF does require names

16:23:35 <gkellogg> Could be <graph:1> { :s :p :o } <graph:2> { :s2 :p2 :o2}

Gregg Kellogg: Could be <graph:1> { :s :p :o } <graph:2> { :s2 :p2 :o2}

16:23:38 <ericP> ... an issue is that the fragIDs change from day to day

... an issue is that the fragIDs change from day to day

16:23:58 <SteveH> use UUIDs?

Steve Harris: use UUIDs?

16:24:20 <ericP> ... bnodes convey a clear message that you can't count on

... bnodes convey a clear message that you can't count on

16:24:22 <tbaker> returning chair to Guus

Thomas Baker: returning chair to Guus

16:24:33 <gkellogg> With frauds <#g1> { :s :p :o } <#g2> {:s2 :p2 :o2}

Gregg Kellogg: With fragids <#g1> { :s :p :o } <#g2> {:s2 :p2 :o2}

16:24:42 <gkellogg> s/frauds/fragids/
16:24:47 <ericP> PatH: so the message that you're sending is that these fragIDs shouldn't be used 'cause they are ephemoral

Patrick Hayes: so the message that you're sending is that these fragIDs shouldn't be used 'cause they are ephemoral

16:24:50 <cygri> q-

Richard Cyganiak: q-

16:24:58 <Guus> ack PatH

Guus Schreiber: ack PatH

16:25:00 <ericP> ... but in RDF, they do have weight

... but in RDF, they do have weight

16:25:42 <ericP> ... so if you hand me an RDF dataset with faux-named graphs in it, are these names likely to be altered?

... so if you hand me an RDF dataset with faux-named graphs in it, are these names likely to be altered?

16:26:01 <ericP> manu: phrase that q: around bnodes.

Manu Sporny: phrase that q: around bnodes.

16:26:17 <Zakim> Zakim-bot will be restarted in 3 minutes to recover caller state; please save your agenda status.  Apologies for the inconvenience

Zakim IRC Bot: Zakim-bot will be restarted in 3 minutes to recover caller state; please save your agenda status. Apologies for the inconvenience

16:26:22 <ericP> ... we could invent universal labels for things that bnodes label

... we could invent universal labels for things that bnodes label

16:28:28 <ericP> PatH: we need bnode labels in RDF 'cause we need to represent graph connectivity

Patrick Hayes: we need bnode labels in RDF 'cause we need to represent graph connectivity

16:28:40 <ericP> ... the analogous situation doens't arrise in graphs

... the analogous situation doens't arrise in graphs

16:29:07 <ericP> manu: in the JSON syntax, you can have the property of one subject talk about a graph without naming it

Manu Sporny: in the JSON syntax, you can have the property of one subject talk about a graph without naming it

16:29:22 <ericP> ... we represent that in JSON-LD without using any graph names whatsoever

... we represent that in JSON-LD without using any graph names whatsoever

16:29:29 <ericP> q+ to point out that JSON-LD is more expressive

q+ to point out that JSON-LD is more expressive

16:29:56 <ericP> ... this is the same process for creating bnode identifiers

... this is the same process for creating bnode identifiers

16:29:57 <gkellogg> { <> dc:created "today"} <> { :s :p :o } -- This might be some use case

Gregg Kellogg: { <> dc:created "today"} <> { :s :p :o } -- This might be some use case

16:30:30 <ericP> PatH: in your case you're using to identify soemthing else, to wit, a graph

Patrick Hayes: in your case you're using to identify soemthing else, to wit, a graph

16:30:50 <ericP> ack me

ack me

16:30:51 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to point out that JSON-LD is more expressive

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to point out that JSON-LD is more expressive

16:31:48 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:31:49 <SteveH> I can't imagine it causing any issues - the (JSON-LD) feature is weird, but replacing your graph labels with URIs won't hurt

Steve Harris: I can't imagine it causing any issues - the (JSON-LD) feature is weird, but replacing your graph labels with URIs won't hurt

16:31:53 <PatH> q-

Patrick Hayes: q-

16:32:11 <manu> ericp: I think we have a situation where RDF + named graphs has a certain expressivity... JSON-LD has a higher expressivity.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I think we have a situation where RDF + named graphs has a certain expressivity... JSON-LD has a higher expressivity. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

16:32:28 <PatH> yes.

Patrick Hayes: yes.

16:32:42 <manu> ericp: In RDF we can talk about literals, blank nodes, graphs... in JSON-LD we also permit blank nodes as the way for establishing connectivity to anonymous graphs.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: In RDF we can talk about literals, blank nodes, graphs... in JSON-LD we also permit blank nodes as the way for establishing connectivity to anonymous graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

16:33:11 <manu> ericp: If bob says the moon is made of green cheese, in RDF we have to give that statement a name, in JSON-LD we don't have that.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: If bob says the moon is made of green cheese, in RDF we have to give that statement a name, in JSON-LD we don't have that. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

16:33:36 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:33:47 <manu> ericp: This brings up whether RDF should be modified to be more expressive?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: This brings up whether RDF should be modified to be more expressive? [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

16:34:04 <manu> ericp: JSON-LD is more expressive than RDF in this instance.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: JSON-LD is more expressive than RDF in this instance. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

16:34:10 <PatH> that sounds like graph literals to me.

Patrick Hayes: that sounds like graph literals to me.

16:34:10 <Guus> ack cygri

Guus Schreiber: ack cygri

16:34:17 <PatH> q-

Patrick Hayes: q-

16:34:18 <cygri> 1. { _:a ex:p ex:o } and { _:b ex:p ex:o } are the same. wouldn't be the case if a and b were IRIs

Richard Cyganiak: 1. { _:a ex:p ex:o } and { _:b ex:p ex:o } are the same. wouldn't be the case if a and b were IRIs

16:34:30 <manu> Guus: You always lose something when going from more expressivity to less expressivity.

Guus Schreiber: You always lose something when going from more expressivity to less expressivity. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

16:34:36 <ericP>  _:statement1 dc:author "Bob" . _:statement1 { :TheMoon :madeOf :greenCheese } .

_:statement1 dc:author "Bob" . _:statement1 { :TheMoon :madeOf :greenCheese } .

16:35:07 <manu> cygri: In the case above, the blank node IDs don't matter because they're the same graph.

Richard Cyganiak: In the case above, the blank node IDs don't matter because they're the same graph. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

16:35:16 <ericP> cygri: if i have to two graphs, with bnodes in then, the graphs are equivalent

Richard Cyganiak: if i have to two graphs, with bnodes in then, the graphs are equivalent

16:35:23 <ericP> ... i don't see that in name graphs

... i don't see that in name graphs

16:35:33 <manu> cygri: The other issue is that with blank node labels, when we merge two graphs, we may have to relabel nodes to avoid clashes.

Richard Cyganiak: The other issue is that with blank node labels, when we merge two graphs, we may have to relabel nodes to avoid clashes. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

16:35:54 <ericP> ... when parsing, if i see _:a in g1 and _:a in g2, i have to make sure that _:a in g2 is distinct

... when parsing, if i see _:a in g1 and _:a in g2, i have to make sure that _:a in g2 is distinct

16:36:14 <manu> cygri: once we've done this, we can merge the graphs. If we assigned labels based on some kind of canonicalization, we wouldn't have to do that because there wouldn't be any clashes.

Richard Cyganiak: once we've done this, we can merge the graphs. If we assigned labels based on some kind of canonicalization, we wouldn't have to do that because there wouldn't be any clashes. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

16:36:48 <ericP> scribenick: manu

(Scribe set to Manu Sporny)

16:36:50 <manu> cygri: If I take both of those reasons for blank node identifiers away, then basically they don't have to be special in the way that they are currently. The situation with graph names is not the same as arbitrary names in the graph.

Richard Cyganiak: If I take both of those reasons for blank node identifiers away, then basically they don't have to be special in the way that they are currently. The situation with graph names is not the same as arbitrary names in the graph.

16:36:52 <ericP> scribenick: manu
16:37:15 <PatH> new scheme or use fragIDs

Patrick Hayes: new scheme or use fragIDs

16:37:21 <manu> Guus: Does the creation of a new IRI scheme cause any concern?

Guus Schreiber: Does the creation of a new IRI scheme cause any concern?

16:37:54 <manu> cygri: I think it's a bad idea to introduce a new IRI scheme, it's a high barrier. Especially if it doesn't have any protocol associated with it. Non-protocol IRI schemes don't seem to work.

Richard Cyganiak: I think it's a bad idea to introduce a new IRI scheme, it's a high barrier. Especially if it doesn't have any protocol associated with it. Non-protocol IRI schemes don't seem to work.

16:38:30 <manu> cygri: Discussion in JSON-LD is to use new IRI scheme, I'm happy w/ using fragment IDs.

Richard Cyganiak: Discussion in JSON-LD is to use new IRI scheme, I'm happy w/ using fragment IDs.

16:38:43 <Guus> ack PatH

Guus Schreiber: ack PatH

16:38:50 <markus> q+

Markus Lanthaler: q+

16:38:51 <manu> manu: Yeah, I guess we'll try for fragIDs.

Manu Sporny: Yeah, I guess we'll try for fragIDs.

16:39:02 <manu> Path: This sounds a lot like graph literals.

Patrick Hayes: This sounds a lot like graph literals.

16:39:04 <ericP> PatH: JSON-LD expressivity sounds like graph literals

Patrick Hayes: JSON-LD expressivity sounds like graph literals [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ]

16:39:33 <ericP>  _:statement1 { :TheMoon :madeOf :greenCheese } dc:author "Bob".

Eric Prud'hommeaux: _:statement1 { :TheMoon :madeOf :greenCheese } dc:author "Bob".

16:39:50 <ericP> vs. _:statement1 dc:author "Bob" . _:statement1 { :TheMoon :madeOf :greenCheese } .

Eric Prud'hommeaux: vs. _:statement1 dc:author "Bob" . _:statement1 { :TheMoon :madeOf :greenCheese } .

16:40:00 <ericP> vs. <statement1> dc:author "Bob" . <statement1> { :TheMoon :madeOf :greenCheese } .

Eric Prud'hommeaux: vs. <statement1> dc:author "Bob" . <statement1> { :TheMoon :madeOf :greenCheese } .

16:40:11 <manu> Markus: How should collisions be handled, then? If you have a dataset/graph - how are you going to resolve fragment ID clashes?

Markus Lanthaler: How should collisions be handled, then? If you have a dataset/graph - how are you going to resolve fragment ID clashes?

16:40:20 <ericP> PatH, i see three different things htere

Eric Prud'hommeaux: PatH, i see three different things htere

16:40:33 <manu> cygri: There are solutions to this.

Richard Cyganiak: There are solutions to this.

16:41:15 <manu> path: You could strip off the document identifier and re-label all fragment identifiers in the document.

Patrick Hayes: You could strip off the document identifier and re-label all fragment identifiers in the document.

16:41:27 <manu> Topic: Semantics

3. Semantics

16:41:41 <manu> Guus: What should we focus on, planning-wise?

Guus Schreiber: What should we focus on, planning-wise?

16:42:08 <manu> PatH: We should focus on interaction between Semantics and Concepts - we need blank node scope discussion.

Patrick Hayes: We should focus on interaction between Semantics and Concepts - we need blank node scope discussion.

16:42:18 <davidwood> +1 to PatH

David Wood: +1 to PatH

16:42:45 <manu> PatH: Datatype interpretations - The version in current semantics document is greatly simplified, the key point is the interpretation of ??? is a URI map, it would require a change to concepts.

Patrick Hayes: Datatype interpretations - The version in current semantics document is greatly simplified, the key point is the interpretation of ??? is a URI map, it would require a change to concepts.

16:42:54 <cygri> PatH, noted.

Richard Cyganiak: PatH, noted.

16:43:01 <manu> PatH: Draw the group attention to these two points of conflict.

Patrick Hayes: Draw the group attention to these two points of conflict.

16:43:16 <manu> Path: One of thse is an issue, the other is not.

Patrick Hayes: One of thse is an issue, the other is not.

16:43:38 <manu> PatH: I can make an issue for the other one, if you'd like.

Patrick Hayes: I can make an issue for the other one, if you'd like.

16:43:59 <manu> Guus: We have several proposals, not agreed on one. We need to resolve this. ISSUE-107 is tabled.

Guus Schreiber: We have several proposals, not agreed on one. We need to resolve this. ISSUE-107 is tabled.

16:44:08 <manu> PatH: I'll get an issue together for datatypes.

Patrick Hayes: I'll get an issue together for datatypes.

16:44:40 <manu> Guus: Any comments on the semantics document?

Guus Schreiber: Any comments on the semantics document?

16:44:56 <manu> PatH: Any comments on editorial matters, send them to me, would love to get feedback.

Patrick Hayes: Any comments on editorial matters, send them to me, would love to get feedback.

16:45:31 <manu> Topic: JSON-LD Update

4. JSON-LD Update

16:46:11 <manu> gkellogg: We have completed work on resolving differences between ways of expressing the algorithms. Converged on a single representation, still need to hammer out some details.

Gregg Kellogg: We have completed work on resolving differences between ways of expressing the algorithms. Converged on a single representation, still need to hammer out some details.

16:46:17 <manu> gkellogg: Syntax document is ready for LC

Gregg Kellogg: Syntax document is ready for LC

16:46:32 <manu> gkellogg: Algorithms document, we are trying to finish before end of Feb 2013.

Gregg Kellogg: Algorithms document, we are trying to finish before end of Feb 2013.

16:46:38 <manu> Guus: Good, sounds like you're on track.

Guus Schreiber: Good, sounds like you're on track.

16:46:51 <manu> Guus: The discussion on graph identifiers, that was one of the few remaining issues?

Guus Schreiber: The discussion on graph identifiers, that was one of the few remaining issues?

16:47:22 <manu> gkellogg: Yes, we need to address what algorithm for collisions w/ fragIDs is going to be.

Gregg Kellogg: Yes, we need to address what algorithm for collisions w/ fragIDs is going to be.

16:47:34 <manu> Guus: There are no outstanding technical issues?

Guus Schreiber: There are no outstanding technical issues?

16:47:36 <cygri> markus, see http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mimeTypesAndFragids -- you can reserve a chunk of fragment id space through your media type. like <#_:XYZ>.

Richard Cyganiak: markus, see http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mimeTypesAndFragids -- you can reserve a chunk of fragment id space through your media type. like <#_:XYZ>.

16:47:42 <manu> gkellogg: There are some open technical issues, but nothing big.

Gregg Kellogg: There are some open technical issues, but nothing big.

16:48:05 <manu> Topic: Review of WG status

5. Review of WG status

16:48:17 <manu> Guus: We have 8 open issues, we can focus on finishing the documents. We're in decent shape.

Guus Schreiber: We have 8 open issues, we can focus on finishing the documents. We're in decent shape.

16:48:24 <cygri> markus, just choose syntax so that it minimises the probability of stepping on too many toes

Richard Cyganiak: markus, just choose syntax so that it minimises the probability of stepping on too many toes

16:48:43 <manu> Guus: Publication of TURTLE CR - EricP and I can do that offline, after we adjourn.

Guus Schreiber: Publication of TURTLE CR - EricP and I can do that offline, after we adjourn.

16:49:00 <markus> thanks cygri, the problem I see however is that it would have to be done at the RDF (data model) layer.. if we just do it in JSON-LD we can't roundtrip to other serial. formats without changing IRIs

Markus Lanthaler: thanks cygri, the problem I see however is that it would have to be done at the RDF (data model) layer.. if we just do it in JSON-LD we can't roundtrip to other serial. formats without changing IRIs

16:49:41 <gkellogg> cygri: always the recursive issue of re-serializing a document already using such fragIDs. However, we can certainly establish a mechanism for avoiding collisions.

Richard Cyganiak: always the recursive issue of re-serializing a document already using such fragIDs. However, we can certainly establish a mechanism for avoiding collisions. [ Scribe Assist by Gregg Kellogg ]

16:49:55 <manu> EricP: Can anybody point us at where if/when we decided to not have syntax to reset base and prefix.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Can anybody point us at where if/when we decided to not have syntax to reset base and prefix.

16:50:20 <manu> Silence. SILENCE!

Silence. SILENCE!

16:50:33 <manu> Ted: is this specifically regarding Turtle?

Ted Thibodeau: is this specifically regarding Turtle?

16:50:45 <manu> Guus: Why don't we adjourn, the people that want to help can stay on the call.

Guus Schreiber: Why don't we adjourn, the people that want to help can stay on the call.

16:50:48 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/mid/CAPTxtVOvdssTMQyyHOGUi42Kw1_eM5VShTmz=52Nut82PMbjWA@mail.gmail.com

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/mid/CAPTxtVOvdssTMQyyHOGUi42Kw1_eM5VShTmz=52Nut82PMbjWA@mail.gmail.com

16:50:55 <manu> EricP: That was the one we never responded to.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: That was the one we never responded to.

16:51:07 <manu> EricP: Did we discuss it and decide that we don't want to have that feature?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Did we discuss it and decide that we don't want to have that feature?

16:52:06 <manu> EricP: Does anybody have recollection to unsetting base/prefix? RFC3986 says that you always have it from document/protocol/etc. Maybe you go back to it when you started parsing.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Does anybody have recollection to unsetting base/prefix? RFC3986 says that you always have it from document/protocol/etc. Maybe you go back to it when you started parsing.

16:52:30 <manu> EricP: We can say that there is no implementation experience, even though there was ample time for it to appear.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: We can say that there is no implementation experience, even though there was ample time for it to appear.

16:52:44 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:52:45 <manu> Guus: Is this a theoretical problem? It's never been reported that somebody wanted this reset syntax to work.

Guus Schreiber: Is this a theoretical problem? It's never been reported that somebody wanted this reset syntax to work.

16:52:55 <cygri> q+ to answer "use n-triples"

Richard Cyganiak: q+ to answer "use n-triples"

16:53:04 <markus> q-

Markus Lanthaler: q-

16:53:24 <manu> cygri: You could say that if you want to do concatentation of text files w/o checking them, use N-Triples.

Richard Cyganiak: You could say that if you want to do concatentation of text files w/o checking them, use N-Triples.

16:53:50 <manu> cygri: With TURTLE you have a slight possibility that a previously syntactically invalid file is now valid, but not in the way that you intend.

Richard Cyganiak: With TURTLE you have a slight possibility that a previously syntactically invalid file is now valid, but not in the way that you intend.

16:53:59 <manu> EricP: It can also move your base around, which is dangerous.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: It can also move your base around, which is dangerous.

16:54:16 <manu> EricP: If I concatenate that w/ something else, that might have expected the base to be something else.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: If I concatenate that w/ something else, that might have expected the base to be something else.

16:54:36 <manu> Ted: it may be valid to say that concatenating TURTLE is going to have valid results.

Ted Thibodeau: it may be valid to say that concatenating TURTLE is going to have valid results.

16:54:56 <manu> cygri: Concatenating TURTLE files may have unintended consequences. Maybe we should say that informatively.

Richard Cyganiak: Concatenating TURTLE files may have unintended consequences. Maybe we should say that informatively.

16:55:04 <manu> Guus: We should say that to the commenter.

Guus Schreiber: We should say that to the commenter.

16:55:44 <cygri> q-

Richard Cyganiak: q-

16:56:07 <manu> EricP: If we're going to do that, we should change text in the document. It'll push us back a bit later than tomorrow for publication. Another alternative is to say that concatenating any TURTLE file to an initial Turtle file, must consider as its base URI the URI that was left over from the previous  TURTLE file and prefixes using relative IRIs may be ...

Eric Prud'hommeaux: If we're going to do that, we should change text in the document. It'll push us back a bit later than tomorrow for publication. Another alternative is to say that concatenating any TURTLE file to an initial Turtle file, must consider as its base URI the URI that was left over from the previous TURTLE file and prefixes using relative IRIs may be ...

16:56:32 <manu> Ted: Too complex, let's say "Concatenating TURTLE files can become problematic if @base and @prefix change.". Done.

Ted Thibodeau: Too complex, let's say "Concatenating TURTLE files can become problematic if @base and @prefix change.". Done.

16:56:41 <manu> cygri: Probably, you don't want to do it - let's say that.

Richard Cyganiak: Probably, you don't want to do it - let's say that.

16:56:56 <manu> PatH: You've got local scopes, you can't just concatenate them. Duh. :P

Patrick Hayes: You've got local scopes, you can't just concatenate them. Duh. :P

16:57:05 <manu> Guus: Proposal for wording?

Guus Schreiber: Proposal for wording?

16:58:01 <PatH> i leave eric muttering.....

Patrick Hayes: i leave eric muttering.....

16:58:24 <ericP> PROPOSED: add text [[ Note that concatonating Turtle files can lead to unexpected results, for instance, @base will change the BASE URI and re-used blank node labels will be merged."

PROPOSED: add text [[ Note that concatonating Turtle files can lead to unexpected results, for instance, @base will change the BASE URI and re-used blank node labels will be merged."

16:59:15 <gkellogg> +1, but the BNode naming issue says it's a problem for N-Triples too.

Gregg Kellogg: +1, but the BNode naming issue says it's a problem for N-Triples too.

16:59:40 <cygri> gkellogg, that's right, i forgot about that at first

Richard Cyganiak: gkellogg, that's right, i forgot about that at first

16:59:42 <TallTed> PROPOSED: add text [[ Note that concatenating Turtle files is not generally recommended as it can lead to unexpected results. For instance, @base may change the BASE URI, re-used blank node labels will be merged, and @prefixes may differ. ]]"

PROPOSED: add text [[ Note that concatenating Turtle files is not generally recommended as it can lead to unexpected results. For instance, @base may change the BASE URI, re-used blank node labels will be merged, and @prefixes may differ. ]]"

16:59:47 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#sec-parsing-example

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#sec-parsing-example

17:00:26 <cygri> PROPOSED: Note that concatenating Turtle files does not necessarily produce the RDF graph merge of the two serialized graphs...

PROPOSED: Note that concatenating Turtle files does not necessarily produce the RDF graph merge of the two serialized graphs...

17:01:20 <ericP> ... for instance, @base will change the BASE URI and re-used blank node labels will be merged."

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... for instance, @base will change the BASE URI and re-used blank node labels will be merged."

17:01:47 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

17:02:10 <TallTed> PROPOSED: add text [[ Note that concatenation of Turtle files does not necessarily produce the RDF graph merge of the two serialized graphs and can lead to unexpected results. For instance, @base may change the BASE URI, re-used blank node labels will be merged, and @prefixes may differ. ]]"

PROPOSED: add text [[ Note that concatenation of Turtle files does not necessarily produce the RDF graph merge of the two serialized graphs and can lead to unexpected results. For instance, @base may change the BASE URI, re-used blank node labels will be merged, and @prefixes may differ. ]]"

17:02:39 <Guus> add this text to http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#sec-parsing-example

Guus Schreiber: add this text to http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#sec-parsing-example

17:02:48 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

17:02:51 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

17:02:54 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

17:02:56 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

17:02:57 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

17:03:18 <manu> gkellogg, markus, PatH, ericP: I just passed the "let's use fragid's as graph names" past our CTO and he said that we would have to normalize the graph in order to do that... it breaks graph comparison if we don't do that... will discuss more and get back to you guys. It doesn't look like fragids are going to work, atm.

gkellogg, markus, PatH, ericP: I just passed the "let's use fragid's as graph names" past our CTO and he said that we would have to normalize the graph in order to do that... it breaks graph comparison if we don't do that... will discuss more and get back to you guys. It doesn't look like fragids are going to work, atm.

17:03:55 <cygri> ericP, you should point out that even adding the unsetting feature for @base and @prefix wouldn't achieve what the commenter wanted, due to blank node labels

Richard Cyganiak: ericP, you should point out that even adding the unsetting feature for @base and @prefix wouldn't achieve what the commenter wanted, due to blank node labels

17:04:03 <TallTed> RESOLVED: add text [[ Note that concatenation of Turtle files does not necessarily produce the RDF graph merge of the two serialized graphs and can lead to unexpected results. For instance, @base may change the BASE URI, re-used blank node labels will be merged, and @prefixes may differ. ]]"  to http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#sec-parsing-example

RESOLVED: add text [[ Note that concatenation of Turtle files does not necessarily produce the RDF graph merge of the two serialized graphs and can lead to unexpected results. For instance, @base may change the BASE URI, re-used blank node labels will be merged, and @prefixes may differ. ]]" to http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#sec-parsing-example

17:04:35 <Guus> ACTION ericP to respond to commenter

Guus Schreiber: ACTION ericP to respond to commenter

17:04:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-228 - Respond to commenter [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-02-20].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-228 - Respond to commenter [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-02-20].

17:04:52 <ericP> PROPOSED: respond to comment CAPTxtVOvdssTMQyyHOGUi42Kw1_eM5VShTmz=52Nut82PMbjWA@mail.gmail.com with [[ The WG discussed this and opted instead to add this text explaining what happens when Turtle files are concatonated. "

PROPOSED: respond to comment CAPTxtVOvdssTMQyyHOGUi42Kw1_eM5VShTmz=52Nut82PMbjWA@mail.gmail.com with [[ The WG discussed this and opted instead to add this text explaining what happens when Turtle files are concatonated. "

17:04:57 <markus> manu, I can't see how it could possibly work without breaking round-tripping to RDF

Markus Lanthaler: manu, I can't see how it could possibly work without breaking round-tripping to RDF

17:05:17 <manu> markus: Yeah, he's raising the same issue.

Markus Lanthaler: Yeah, he's raising the same issue.

17:05:47 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/mid/841A41F1-CC53-49E9-B073-4B1217C1CF62@evilfunhouse.com

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/mid/841A41F1-CC53-49E9-B073-4B1217C1CF62@evilfunhouse.com

17:05:52 <markus> manu, simplest solution. Require graph names in the data.. i.e., @id (containing an IRI) must be there for every named graph otherwise it's an error

Markus Lanthaler: manu, simplest solution. Require graph names in the data.. i.e., @id (containing an IRI) must be there for every named graph otherwise it's an error

17:06:11 <cygri> markus, manu, +1 to that

Richard Cyganiak: markus, manu, +1 to that

17:06:50 <cygri> ericP, i think it was here: </dev/null>

Richard Cyganiak: ericP, i think it was here: </dev/null>

17:06:59 <markus> cygri, sad to loose a nice feature.. now you have to use old-style reification to talk about statements

Markus Lanthaler: cygri, sad to loose a nice feature.. now you have to use old-style reification to talk about statements

17:07:13 <markus> ... or you have to mint an IRI for every stmt

Markus Lanthaler: ... or you have to mint an IRI for every stmt

17:07:47 <TallTed> +1 mint an IRI for every stmt ... but I know I'm lonely on this

Ted Thibodeau: +1 mint an IRI for every stmt ... but I know I'm lonely on this

17:07:49 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

17:07:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see no one

17:07:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, markus, SteveH, Souri, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, gkellogg, cygri, TallTed, yvesr_, Arnaud, trackbot, mischat, manu1, manu, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AZ, markus, SteveH, Souri, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, gkellogg, cygri, TallTed, yvesr_, Arnaud, trackbot, mischat, manu1, manu, sandro, ericP

17:08:39 <cygri> markus, use cases that need statement-level metadata are not the sweet spot for RDF

Richard Cyganiak: markus, use cases that need statement-level metadata are not the sweet spot for RDF

17:08:49 <markus> TallTed, then I don't really understand why we have bnodes at all

Markus Lanthaler: TallTed, then I don't really understand why we have bnodes at all

17:09:05 <SteveH> markus, you're not alone

Steve Harris: markus, you're not alone

17:09:15 <markus> good to know :-)

Markus Lanthaler: good to know :-)

17:10:24 <TallTed> bnodes are for entirely different purposes than named-statements (named-graphs of single-triples)

Ted Thibodeau: bnodes are for entirely different purposes than named-statements (named-graphs of single-triples)

17:10:45 <ericP> PROPOSED: in accordance with our recollection of earlier decisions, the WG had elected to keep the section on "Turtle in XHMTL " as a non-normative appendix in the Turtle spec

PROPOSED: in accordance with our recollection of earlier decisions, the WG had elected to keep the section on "Turtle in XHMTL " as a non-normative appendix in the Turtle spec

17:11:07 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

17:11:07 <cygri> -0

Richard Cyganiak: -0

17:11:10 <TallTed> +0

Ted Thibodeau: +0

17:11:43 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

17:12:50 <ericP> RESOLVED: in accordance with our recollection of earlier decisions, the WG had elected to keep the section on "Turtle in XHMTL " as a non-normative appendix in the Turtle spec

RESOLVED: in accordance with our recollection of earlier decisions, the WG had elected to keep the section on "Turtle in XHMTL " as a non-normative appendix in the Turtle spec

17:12:53 <cygri> I'm not objecting, just uncomfortable with lack of evidence.

Richard Cyganiak: I'm not objecting, just uncomfortable with lack of evidence.

17:13:19 <Guus> ACTION  Guus to find the evidence

Guus Schreiber: ACTION Guus to find the evidence

17:13:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-229 - Find the evidence [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-02-20].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-229 - Find the evidence [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-02-20].

17:14:13 <Guus> ADJOURNED

Guus Schreiber: ADJOURNED

17:14:17 <TallTed> +1   :-)

Ted Thibodeau: +1 :-)

17:14:21 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting

Guus Schreiber: trackbot, end meeting

17:14:21 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

17:14:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been (none)

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been (none)

17:14:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

17:14:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/13-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/13-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

17:14:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

17:14:30 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



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This revision (#3) generated 2013-02-13 23:03:04 UTC by 'gschreib', comments: None