None.
14:33:16 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:33:16 <trackbot> Date: 05 September 2012
14:33:24 <ivan> Chair: David Wood
15:02:06 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
15:02:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan (muted), davidwood, Arnaud, Tony, AZ, MacTed (muted), gkellogg, Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan (muted), davidwood, Arnaud, Tony, AZ, MacTed (muted), gkellogg, Souri ←
15:02:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, Arnaud, cgreer, gkellogg, AZ, AndyS, danbri, Guus, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, AndyS_, MacTed, ivan, SteveH, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, sandro, manu, ericP, yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, Arnaud, cgreer, gkellogg, AZ, AndyS, danbri, Guus, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, AndyS_, MacTed, ivan, SteveH, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, sandro, manu, ericP, yvesr ←
15:05:07 <AndyS> Topic: minutes from last time
15:05:21 <AndyS> david: ... 22 august
David Wood: ... 22 august [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:05:27 <danbri> (regrets from me; in Malaysia for Dublin Core conference)
Dan Brickley: (regrets from me; in Malaysia for Dublin Core conference) ←
15:05:39 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 22 Aug telecon:
David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 22 Aug telecon: ←
15:05:39 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-08-22
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-08-22 ←
15:06:04 <AndyS> topic: action items
15:06:07 <davidwood> Review of actions
David Wood: Review of actions ←
15:06:07 <davidwood> ▪ http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
David Wood: ▪ http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview ←
15:06:07 <davidwood> ▪ http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
David Wood: ▪ http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open ←
15:06:24 <AndyS> pat - action 178 pending
Andy Seaborne: pat - ACTION-178 pending ←
15:07:28 <AndyS> david: any open actions done or progressed?
David Wood: any open actions done or progressed? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:07:55 <gavinc> That's check on bat phone, or video, or what is available I think?
Gavin Carothers: That's check on bat phone, or video, or what is available I think? ←
15:08:12 <AndyS> sandro: hardware for F2F - there is a polycom for the room
Sandro Hawke: hardware for F2F - there is a polycom for the room [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:08:13 <gavinc> yeah, I think it was check for a bat phone (polycom)
Gavin Carothers: yeah, I think it was check for a bat phone (polycom) ←
15:08:27 <AndyS> close action-182
Andy Seaborne: close ACTION-182 ←
15:08:27 <trackbot> ACTION-182 Check on hardware for meeting. closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-182 Check on hardware for meeting. closed ←
15:09:56 <Guus> propose to insert agenda item on review Turtle LC comments
Guus Schreiber: propose to insert agenda item on review Turtle LC comments ←
15:10:03 <AndyS> EricP: action 162 ... close for now?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ACTION-162 ... close for now? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:10:11 <AndyS> close action-162
Andy Seaborne: close ACTION-162 ←
15:10:11 <trackbot> ACTION-162 Work with Tom Baker to add the FRBR use case to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-162 Work with Tom Baker to add the FRBR use case to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs closed ←
15:10:32 <AndyS> (ericP to ping tom to let him know what's happened)
Andy Seaborne: (ericP to ping tom to let him know what's happened) ←
15:10:50 <AndyS> topic: admin
15:11:11 <AndyS> david: we are not in summer any more - weekly TCs resume
David Wood: we are not in summer any more - weekly TCs resume [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:11:16 <AndyS> topic: F2F
15:11:51 <AndyS> david: power for the chairs, but not observers and the outer ring of people. Issue if >15 people
David Wood: power for the chairs, but not observers and the outer ring of people. Issue if >15 people [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:12:02 <gavinc> (or is there literally not enough power?)
Gavin Carothers: (or is there literally not enough power?) ←
15:12:52 <AndyS> ... anyone on the wiki to attend needs to also register for TPAC
Andy Seaborne: ... anyone on the wiki to attend needs to also register for TPAC ←
15:13:34 <gavinc> there seem to be only 7 people signed up to go in person
Gavin Carothers: there seem to be only 7 people signed up to go in person ←
15:13:57 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaii
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.265.aaii ←
15:14:16 <davidwood> Topic: RDF Graph Identification
15:14:16 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaii is me
Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.650.265.aaii is me ←
15:14:16 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it ←
15:15:07 <AndyS> david: no terminological discussion in the TCs for now ... use the mailing list.
David Wood: no terminological discussion in the TCs for now ... use the mailing list. [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:15:20 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
15:15:36 <AndyS> ... new terms need to be framed as fitting on the diagram
Andy Seaborne: ... new terms need to be framed as fitting on the diagram ←
15:15:57 <AndyS> ... arrows fixed, words can vary
Andy Seaborne: ... arrows fixed, words can vary ←
15:16:02 <Zakim> +ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP ←
15:16:09 <AndyS> ... ok? (silence)
Andy Seaborne: ... ok? (silence) ←
15:16:27 <AndyS> ... 3 proposals
Andy Seaborne: ... 3 proposals ←
15:16:40 <AZ> yes, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Minimal-dataset-semantics
Antoine Zimmermann: yes, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Minimal-dataset-semantics ←
15:16:50 <AndyS> ... node ids , issue-21
Andy Seaborne: ... node ids , ISSUE-21 ←
15:17:15 <AndyS> ... issue-1 extended to cover TriG (bNode labels)
Andy Seaborne: ... ISSUE-1 extended to cover TriG (bNode labels) ←
15:17:32 <davidwood> Proposal: Node-IDs be shared between graphs in a TriG document. (This addresses ISSUE-21: Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format?)
PROPOSED: Node-IDs be shared between graphs in a TriG document. (This addresses ISSUE-21: Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format?) ←
15:18:01 <gavinc> +1 if and only if RDF semantics is extended to allow this
Gavin Carothers: +1 if and only if RDF semantics is extended to allow this ←
15:18:01 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
15:18:08 <AndyS> ... mimimal semantics (Pierre-Antoine message of today)
Andy Seaborne: ... mimimal semantics (Pierre-Antoine message of today) ←
15:18:10 <davidwood> ack AZ
David Wood: ack AZ ←
15:18:50 <Zakim> + +3539149aakk
Zakim IRC Bot: + +3539149aakk ←
15:18:56 <cygri> zakim, aakk is me
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, aakk is me ←
15:18:56 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it ←
15:19:22 <AndyS> pchampin: what does it mean?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: what does it mean? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:20:05 <gavinc> +q
Gavin Carothers: +q ←
15:20:07 <AndyS> ... bNodes do not denote ... so saying the bnodes denote the same resource is wrong
Andy Seaborne: ... bNodes do not denote ... so saying the bnodes denote the same resource is wrong ←
15:20:14 <SteveH> <a> { _:a a <Foo> } <b> { _:a a <Foo> } + SELECT DISTINT ?s WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } = one result
Steve Harris: <a> { _:a a <Foo> } <b> { _:a a <Foo> } + SELECT DISTINT ?s WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } = one result ←
15:20:22 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:20:29 <AndyS> david: relate to skolemization?
David Wood: relate to skolemization? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:20:30 <SteveH> with default graph = union of named graphs...
Steve Harris: with default graph = union of named graphs... ←
15:20:36 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
15:20:47 <sandro> (no!)
Sandro Hawke: (no!) ←
15:21:07 <SteveH> -1 to having both behaviours
Steve Harris: -1 to having both behaviours ←
15:21:10 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
15:21:23 <davidwood> ack gavinc
David Wood: ack gavinc ←
15:21:30 <gavinc> The formal semantics [RDF-MT] of RDF do not provide for the meaning of blank nodes between graphs. BlankNodes sharing the same label in different graph literals must not be considered to be the same BlankNode.
Gavin Carothers: The formal semantics [RDF-MT] of RDF do not provide for the meaning of blank nodes between graphs. BlankNodes sharing the same label in different graph literals must not be considered to be the same BlankNode. ←
15:21:35 <AndyS> pchampin: should be able to reuse the identifier to be different bNodes
Pierre-Antoine Champin: should be able to reuse the identifier to be different bNodes [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:21:40 <Zakim> +ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP ←
15:22:06 <AndyS> gavin: current spec says that same label is different bNode in different graphs
Gavin Carothers: current spec says that same label is different bNode in different graphs [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:22:20 <AndyS> ... to reverse need to say what it means
Andy Seaborne: ... to reverse need to say what it means ←
15:22:21 <ivan> +1 to gavin; this is a general dataset issue
Ivan Herman: +1 to gavin; this is a general dataset issue ←
15:22:24 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
15:22:43 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:22:55 <AndyS> sandro: bNodes can be shared currently (current practice) e.g. subgraph
Sandro Hawke: bNodes can be shared currently (current practice) e.g. subgraph [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:23:00 <AZ> I agree with that, no problem
Antoine Zimmermann: I agree with that, no problem ←
15:23:02 <SteveH> also RDF Union defines it
Steve Harris: also RDF Union defines it ←
15:23:08 <AndyS> ... that is what we are trying to capture in TriG
Andy Seaborne: ... that is what we are trying to capture in TriG ←
15:23:48 <gavinc> This effectively treats all blank nodes as having the same meaning as existentially quantified variables in the RDF graph in which they occur, and which have the scope of the entire graph. In terms of the N-Triples syntax, this amounts to the convention that would place the quantifiers just outside, or at the outer edge of, the N-Triples document corresponding to the graph. This in turn means that there is a subtle but important distinction in meaning between the
Gavin Carothers: This effectively treats all blank nodes as having the same meaning as existentially quantified variables in the RDF graph in which they occur, and which have the scope of the entire graph. In terms of the N-Triples syntax, this amounts to the convention that would place the quantifiers just outside, or at the outer edge of, the N-Triples document corresponding to the graph. This in turn means that there is a subtle but important distinction in meaning between the ←
15:23:49 <gavinc> operation of forming the union of two graphs and that of forming the merge. The simple union of two graphs corresponds to the conjunction ( 'and' ) of all the triples in the graphs, maintaining the identity of any blank nodes which occur in both graphs. This is appropriate when the information in the graphs comes from a single source, or where one is derived from the other by means of some valid inference process, as for example when applying an inference rule to
Gavin Carothers: operation of forming the union of two graphs and that of forming the merge. The simple union of two graphs corresponds to the conjunction ( 'and' ) of all the triples in the graphs, maintaining the identity of any blank nodes which occur in both graphs. This is appropriate when the information in the graphs comes from a single source, or where one is derived from the other by means of some valid inference process, as for example when applying an inference rule to ←
15:23:51 <gavinc> add a triple to a graph. Merging two graphs treats the blank nodes in each graph as being existentially quantified in that graph, so that no blank node from one graph is allowed to stray into the scope of the other graph's surrounding quantifier. This is appropriate when the graphs come from different sources and there is no justification for assuming that a blank node in one refers to the same entity as any blank node in the other.
Gavin Carothers: add a triple to a graph. Merging two graphs treats the blank nodes in each graph as being existentially quantified in that graph, so that no blank node from one graph is allowed to stray into the scope of the other graph's surrounding quantifier. This is appropriate when the graphs come from different sources and there is no justification for assuming that a blank node in one refers to the same entity as any blank node in the other. ←
15:24:03 <AndyS> pchampin: when you transmit graphs, what you have is the file id for the bnode
Pierre-Antoine Champin: when you transmit graphs, what you have is the file id for the bnode [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:24:11 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:24:18 <AndyS> ... issue is the language of "denote"
Andy Seaborne: ... issue is the language of "denote" ←
15:24:50 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
15:24:55 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:25:08 <AndyS> sandro: the proposal is about making it the same node
Sandro Hawke: the proposal is about making it the same node [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:25:45 <AndyS> cygri: may be true about shared bNodes ... but all triple syntaxes can't say it.
Richard Cyganiak: may be true about shared bNodes ... but all triple syntaxes can't say it. [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:25:57 <sandro> PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node.
PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node. ←
15:26:03 <AndyS> ... can't write it down ... can't express it.
Andy Seaborne: ... can't write it down ... can't express it. ←
15:26:33 <Arnaud> should we talk about g-text vs g-box/g-snap rather than graph here?
Arnaud Le Hors: should we talk about g-text vs g-box/g-snap rather than graph here? ←
15:26:40 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
15:26:40 <AndyS> ... has not been a problem
Andy Seaborne: ... has not been a problem ←
15:26:51 <davidwood> I don't think we are going to prove or disprove the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis here...
David Wood: I don't think we are going to prove or disprove the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis here... ←
15:26:54 <Zakim> +ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP ←
15:27:10 <AndyS> (AndyS disagrees ... N-quad dumps)
Andy Seaborne: (AndyS disagrees ... N-quad dumps) ←
15:27:38 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:27:42 <davidwood> ack Souri
David Wood: ack Souri ←
15:27:42 <AndyS> cygri: how about making the scope as the graph only
Richard Cyganiak: how about making the scope as the graph only [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:27:46 <MacTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
15:27:53 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:27:53 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:27:55 <gkellogg> People have expressed blank nodes between graphs, just not using standardized formats. N-Quads, N3, and at least my implementation of TriG share BNode identifiers within the document to mean the same node..
Gregg Kellogg: People have expressed blank nodes between graphs, just not using standardized formats. N-Quads, N3, and at least my implementation of TriG share BNode identifiers within the document to mean the same node.. ←
15:28:08 <gavinc> and yes you can write it down today (but not in a predictable way that is interrupted the same way by different SPARQL stores)
Gavin Carothers: and yes you can write it down today (but not in a predictable way that is interrupted the same way by different SPARQL stores) ←
15:28:27 <AndyS> (does any store interpret it as different bNodes?)
Andy Seaborne: (does any store interpret it as different bNodes?) ←
15:28:32 <cgreer> +1 to Andy. N-Quad dumps don't have a syntactic graph boundary, so they need bnodes to be document-scoped
Charles Greer: +1 to Andy. N-Quad dumps don't have a syntactic graph boundary, so they need bnodes to be document-scoped ←
15:28:34 <gavinc> (Yes :( )
Gavin Carothers: (Yes :( ) ←
15:28:41 <SteveH> AndyS, nothing in nquads says that _:a in different graphs is the same bNode, AFAIK
Steve Harris: AndyS, nothing in nquads says that _:a in different graphs is the same bNode, AFAIK ←
15:28:57 <AndyS> souri: issue about id across documents
Souripriya Das: issue about id across documents [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:28:59 <sandro> q+ to answer souri
Sandro Hawke: q+ to answer souri ←
15:29:20 <AndyS> steveH ... sure ... this is about current practice
Andy Seaborne: steveH ... sure ... this is about current practice ←
15:29:21 <sandro> Souri, that's a harder problem, and one we're not solving with this proposal.
Sandro Hawke: Souri, that's a harder problem, and one we're not solving with this proposal. ←
15:29:32 <davidwood> agreed
David Wood: agreed ←
15:29:37 <SteveH> AndyS, I think they're different in 4store, but I'd have to test
Steve Harris: AndyS, I think they're different in 4store, but I'd have to test ←
15:29:56 <gavinc> SteveH, I think they are too
Gavin Carothers: SteveH, I think they are too ←
15:30:10 <AndyS> souri: adding to a doc becomes difficult
Souripriya Das: adding to a doc becomes difficult [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:30:23 <davidwood> PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node.
PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node. ←
15:30:26 <SteveH> Souri's issue is delt with better by bnode Skolemisation IMHO
Steve Harris: Souri's issue is delt with better by bnode Skolemisation IMHO ←
15:30:30 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aall
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.553.aall ←
15:30:33 <gavinc> couldn't restore a TDB dump into 4store for that reason with blank nodes used for people :\
Gavin Carothers: couldn't restore a TDB dump into 4store for that reason with blank nodes used for people :\ ←
15:30:36 <LeeF> zakim, aall is me
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aall is me ←
15:30:36 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF; got it ←
15:30:59 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
15:31:11 <SteveH> gavinc, yeah, you have to turn on auto-skolemisation, then it will Just Work™
Steve Harris: gavinc, yeah, you have to turn on auto-skolemisation, then it will Just Work™ ←
15:31:19 <AndyS> david: scope of discussion is one trig doc ... not across multiple docs or loads
David Wood: scope of discussion is one trig doc ... not across multiple docs or loads [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:31:20 <davidwood> ack MacTed
David Wood: ack MacTed ←
15:31:33 <zwu2> one can always skolemize
Zhe Wu: one can always skolemize ←
15:31:46 <AndyS> MacTed: scope is container
Ted Thibodeau: scope is container [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:31:56 <AndyS> ... the container is a trig doc
Andy Seaborne: ... the container is a trig doc ←
15:32:00 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
15:32:22 <Zakim> +ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP ←
15:32:25 <gkellogg> +1 to what MacTed said
Gregg Kellogg: +1 to what MacTed said ←
15:32:28 <SteveH> that assumes the doc has a single author
Steve Harris: that assumes the doc has a single author ←
15:32:32 <AndyS> ... app/person writing file has the responsibility
Andy Seaborne: ... app/person writing file has the responsibility ←
15:32:37 <LeeF> FYI, I just asked what our current setup does, and it treats the same blank node ID in different graphs in a single trig parser as the same blank node
Lee Feigenbaum: FYI, I just asked what our current setup does, and it treats the same blank node ID in different graphs in a single trig parser as the same blank node ←
15:32:52 <LeeF> (I don't believe we ever rely on this, however)
Lee Feigenbaum: (I don't believe we ever rely on this, however) ←
15:32:54 <AndyS> ... and the loading changes the bnodes
Andy Seaborne: ... and the loading changes the bnodes ←
15:33:21 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
15:33:21 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to answer souri
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to answer souri ←
15:33:29 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:33:29 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:33:33 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:33:42 <AndyS> this is the same currently within one graph and multiple authors.
Andy Seaborne: this is the same currently within one graph and multiple authors. ←
15:33:51 <AndyS> ack souri
Andy Seaborne: ack souri ←
15:33:53 <ericP> here's the query i expect to work in SPARQL (which I believe already works in most SPARQL endpoints):
Eric Prud'hommeaux: here's the query i expect to work in SPARQL (which I believe already works in most SPARQL endpoints): ←
15:33:54 <SteveH> yes
Steve Harris: yes ←
15:33:56 <ericP> data -- GRAPH <g1> { _:s1 <p1> "o1" } GRAPH <g2> { _:s1 <p2> "o2" }
Eric Prud'hommeaux: data -- GRAPH <g1> { _:s1 <p1> "o1" } GRAPH <g2> { _:s1 <p2> "o2" } ←
15:33:58 <ericP> query -- SELECT ?s { GRAPH <g1> { ?s <p1> "o1" } GRAPH <g2> { ?s <p2> "o2" } }
Eric Prud'hommeaux: query -- SELECT ?s { GRAPH <g1> { ?s <p1> "o1" } GRAPH <g2> { ?s <p2> "o2" } } ←
15:34:01 <ericP> results -- { (?s -> _:asdf1) }
Eric Prud'hommeaux: results -- { (?s -> _:asdf1) } ←
15:34:02 <SteveH> but it's not as trivial as MacTed makes it sound
Steve Harris: but it's not as trivial as MacTed makes it sound ←
15:34:49 <AndyS> sandro: can just use bNode labels - not needing to go via skolemization
Sandro Hawke: can just use bNode labels - not needing to go via skolemization [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:35:07 <LeeF> ericP, in Anzo, today, that would work as you say
Lee Feigenbaum: ericP, in Anzo, today, that would work as you say ←
15:35:17 <AndyS> ... one parser run only ... not across two parse runs (even of same doc)
Andy Seaborne: ... one parser run only ... not across two parse runs (even of same doc) ←
15:35:51 <SteveH> ericP, what about INSERT DATA GRAPH <g1> { _:s1 <p1> "o1" } ; INSERT DATA GRAPH <g2> { _:s1 <p2> "o2" } ?
Steve Harris: ericP, what about INSERT DATA GRAPH <g1> { _:s1 <p1> "o1" } ; INSERT DATA GRAPH <g2> { _:s1 <p2> "o2" } ? ←
15:35:52 <AndyS> souri: (checks on understanding whether this is long term persistence)
Souripriya Das: (checks on understanding whether this is long term persistence) [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:36:02 <AndyS> souri: (checks on understanding whether this is long term persistence of bnode ids)
Souripriya Das: (checks on understanding whether this is long term persistence of bnode ids) [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:36:10 <AndyS> sandro: no
Sandro Hawke: no [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:36:27 <davidwood> PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node. This closes ISSUE-21.
PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node. This closes ISSUE-21. ←
15:36:36 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:36:38 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
15:36:40 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
15:36:40 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
15:36:40 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:36:41 <AndyS> steveH -- that is the same
Andy Seaborne: steveH -- that is the same ←
15:36:42 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
15:36:42 <cgreer> +1
Charles Greer: +1 ←
15:36:47 <cygri> -1
Richard Cyganiak: -1 ←
15:36:49 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
15:36:49 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
15:36:51 <ivan> 0
Ivan Herman: 0 ←
15:36:51 <AZ> +0.5 I think
Antoine Zimmermann: +0.5 I think ←
15:36:55 <Souri> -0.5
Souripriya Das: -0.5 ←
15:37:01 <ivan> -0 actually
Ivan Herman: -0 actually ←
15:37:02 <gavinc> +0
Gavin Carothers: +0 ←
15:37:05 <zwu2> -0.1
15:37:30 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
15:37:37 <AndyS> cygri: objection: it makes it more complicated and no use case
Richard Cyganiak: objection: it makes it more complicated and no use case [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:37:44 <Zakim> +ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP ←
15:37:51 <AndyS> ... have seen that it can occur in SPARQL
Andy Seaborne: ... have seen that it can occur in SPARQL ←
15:37:53 <davidwood> LeeF, can you please speak to your use case?
David Wood: LeeF, can you please speak to your use case? ←
15:38:02 <AndyS> q+ to ask about subgraph UC
Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask about subgraph UC ←
15:38:29 <ericP> SteveH, re: INSERT, yes, I think we're on the same page for what that produces
Eric Prud'hommeaux: SteveH, re: INSERT, yes, I think we're on the same page for what that produces ←
15:38:35 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
15:38:43 <AndyS> ... application use case is what?
Andy Seaborne: ... application use case is what? ←
15:38:44 <SteveH> FWIW, I think that Skolemisation is a much better solution to the serialisation problem, but it seems that I'm the only one :)
Steve Harris: FWIW, I think that Skolemisation is a much better solution to the serialisation problem, but it seems that I'm the only one :) ←
15:39:20 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs#Separation_of_Inference
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs#Separation_of_Inference ←
15:39:30 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
15:39:30 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about subgraph UC
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about subgraph UC ←
15:39:32 <AndyS> Leef: this (bnodes across graphs) is what anzo does
Lee Feigenbaum: this (bnodes across graphs) is what anzo does [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:39:41 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
15:40:08 <AZ> AndyS: we have a used case for subgraphs
Andy Seaborne: we have a used case for subgraphs [ Scribe Assist by Antoine Zimmermann ] ←
15:40:29 <AZ> cygri: but I'd like a real application scenario
Richard Cyganiak: but I'd like a real application scenario [ Scribe Assist by Antoine Zimmermann ] ←
15:40:44 <SteveH> ericP, in my system INSERT … ; INSERT is two parser runs IIRC
Steve Harris: ericP, in my system INSERT … ; INSERT is two parser runs IIRC ←
15:41:35 <AZ> sandro: you want to keep separated inferences for instance
Sandro Hawke: you want to keep separated inferences for instance [ Scribe Assist by Antoine Zimmermann ] ←
15:41:42 <AZ> cygri: who's doing that?
Richard Cyganiak: who's doing that? [ Scribe Assist by Antoine Zimmermann ] ←
15:41:47 <SteveH> backing up a SPARQL dataset is a valid usecase
Steve Harris: backing up a SPARQL dataset is a valid usecase ←
15:41:54 <SteveH> people do that all the time
Steve Harris: people do that all the time ←
15:43:22 <AndyS> cygri: can't do it by loading files off the web
Richard Cyganiak: can't do it by loading files off the web [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:43:38 <AndyS> ... who does this in practice?
Andy Seaborne: ... who does this in practice? ←
15:44:22 <AZ> q-
Antoine Zimmermann: q- ←
15:44:27 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:44:27 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:44:38 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:44:45 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
15:45:00 <AndyS> davidwood: high bar to have such an example of must have this feature
David Wood: high bar to have such an example of must have this feature [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:45:09 <AndyS> sandro: prov WG ?
Sandro Hawke: prov WG ? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:45:39 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
15:45:47 <AndyS> cygri: it's simpler not to share
Richard Cyganiak: it's simpler not to share [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:45:59 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
15:46:18 <davidwood> ack SteveH
David Wood: ack SteveH ←
15:46:30 <AndyS> You can dump the store in INSERT DATA format
Andy Seaborne: You can dump the store in INSERT DATA format ←
15:47:09 <sandro> steve: the backing up of a sparql data store is a reasonable use case here.
Steve Harris: the backing up of a sparql data store is a reasonable use case here. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:47:44 <sandro> cygri: (1) sharing blank nodes between graphs, or (2) not sharing them. What breaks if we go with #2.
Richard Cyganiak: (1) sharing blank nodes between graphs, or (2) not sharing them. What breaks if we go with #2. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:48:02 <gavinc> something that breaks: The ability serialize an inference graph separately from an asserted graph
Gavin Carothers: something that breaks: The ability serialize an inference graph separately from an asserted graph ←
15:48:12 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
15:48:16 <sandro> AndyS: user applications would break
Andy Seaborne: user applications would break [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:48:18 <zwu2> Oracle is doing 2
15:48:38 <SteveH> so does 4store
Steve Harris: so does 4store ←
15:48:40 <davidwood> zwu2, can you speak to Oracle's use case?
David Wood: zwu2, can you speak to Oracle's use case? ←
15:48:43 <AndyS> cygri: what breaks if we adopt the unshared design?
Richard Cyganiak: what breaks if we adopt the unshared design? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:48:54 <sandro> AndyS: It's not fair to compare having different bars for the two different cases.
Andy Seaborne: It's not fair to compare having different bars for the two different cases. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:49:10 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
15:49:24 <Zakim> +ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP ←
15:49:35 <AndyS> AndyS: user applications using Jena and other APIs do - eric and others have noted it already happens
Andy Seaborne: user applications using Jena and other APIs do - eric and others have noted it already happens [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:50:08 <AndyS> sandro: most choices with option 1
Sandro Hawke: most choices with option 1 [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:50:11 <ericP> options 2 forces a lot of design decisions
Eric Prud'hommeaux: options 2 forces a lot of design decisions ←
15:50:13 <cygri> davidwood, skolem uris
Richard Cyganiak: davidwood, skolem uris ←
15:50:13 <SteveH> sandro, users have the same choices both ways
Steve Harris: sandro, users have the same choices both ways ←
15:50:27 <SteveH> it's about ease / danger
Steve Harris: it's about ease / danger ←
15:50:40 <SteveH> too much rope maybe
Steve Harris: too much rope maybe ←
15:50:40 <ericP> anything i want to be able to connect between different graphs, i need to promise to honor a persistent identifier
Eric Prud'hommeaux: anything i want to be able to connect between different graphs, i need to promise to honor a persistent identifier ←
15:50:51 <AndyS> I agree with sandro - it's it banned, it can't be done so enforced not sharing is less choice
Andy Seaborne: I agree with sandro - it's it banned, it can't be done so enforced not sharing is less choice ←
15:51:48 <gavinc> Inside a SPARQL database you can do it already
Gavin Carothers: Inside a SPARQL database you can do it already ←
15:51:56 <AndyS> david: clarification: This is solely with one trig doc (and only one parser run on that doc)
David Wood: clarification: This is solely with one trig doc (and only one parser run on that doc) [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
15:52:14 <ericP> i think we're also talking about the RDF model here 'cause what else will i parse the Trig doc into?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i think we're also talking about the RDF model here 'cause what else will i parse the Trig doc into? ←
15:52:22 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
15:52:26 <SteveH> gavinc, actually, you can't - you can copy one, but no reuse in different graphs
Steve Harris: gavinc, actually, you can't - you can copy one, but no reuse in different graphs ←
15:52:40 <SteveH> …necessarily
Steve Harris: …necessarily ←
15:52:40 <AndyS> q+ to ask Oracle about reading the same ttl file twice
Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask Oracle about reading the same ttl file twice ←
15:52:41 <gavinc> correction, you can in SOME SPARQL stores
Gavin Carothers: correction, you can in SOME SPARQL stores ←
15:52:42 <ericP> q+ to ask how this is different from named identifiers?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask how this is different from named identifiers? ←
15:52:43 <gavinc> sigh
Gavin Carothers: sigh ←
15:53:40 <AndyS> Shall we try the other proposal as a strawpoll?
Andy Seaborne: Shall we try the other proposal as a strawpoll? ←
15:54:04 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
15:54:04 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask Oracle about reading the same ttl file twice
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask Oracle about reading the same ttl file twice ←
15:54:14 <SteveH> davidwood, I think the usecase are as common as each other
Steve Harris: davidwood, I think the usecase are as common as each other ←
15:55:40 <sandro> souri: the blank nodes names are combined with the graph names -- and are stable ids. If you read the file multiple times, it's the same bnode.
Souripriya Das: the blank nodes names are combined with the graph names -- and are stable ids. If you read the file multiple times, it's the same bnode. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:55:50 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:55:50 <Zakim> MacTed was not muted, MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed was not muted, MacTed ←
15:55:59 <MacTed> q+ to talk again about container scope
Ted Thibodeau: q+ to talk again about container scope ←
15:56:21 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
15:56:34 <Zakim> +ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP ←
15:56:42 <gkellogg> BNode scope should just be to a particular parse of a specific document. Parsing twice should result in two different nodes. Otherwise, use Skolemized identifiers
Gregg Kellogg: BNode scope should just be to a particular parse of a specific document. Parsing twice should result in two different nodes. Otherwise, use Skolemized identifiers ←
15:56:43 <sandro> souri: if you say _:b1 in 2009 and again say _:b1 in 2011, we make it the same node -- because otherwise users can't get at that bnode, to add some more data. So we went with that option.
Souripriya Das: if you say _:b1 in 2009 and again say _:b1 in 2011, we make it the same node -- because otherwise users can't get at that bnode, to add some more data. So we went with that option. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:56:51 <cygri> q+ to ask wether stores that don't support shared bnodes conform to SPARQL
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to ask wether stores that don't support shared bnodes conform to SPARQL ←
15:57:24 <sandro> souri: but we could add a flag to do it the other way, when people want.
Souripriya Das: but we could add a flag to do it the other way, when people want. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:57:44 <ericP> INSERT INTO <g1> { _:gen1 <p1> "s1" }; INSERT INTO <g1> { _:gen1 <p2> "s2" }; -- how many distinct subjects are there in <g1>?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: INSERT INTO <g1> { _:gen1 <p1> "s1" }; INSERT INTO <g1> { _:gen1 <p2> "s2" }; -- how many distinct subjects are there in <g1>? ←
15:57:49 <ericP> sounds like 1 in Oracle
Eric Prud'hommeaux: sounds like 1 in Oracle ←
15:59:04 <Souri> q+ to say (if we do go with bNode sharing amongst graphs) why address it partially? Why restrict the context to a single trig document? One could define a context (as a set of trig documents, for example) for which graphs share bNode ids.
Souripriya Das: q+ to say (if we do go with bNode sharing amongst graphs) why address it partially? Why restrict the context to a single trig document? One could define a context (as a set of trig documents, for example) for which graphs share bNode ids. ←
15:59:32 <sandro> good luck chairing, davidwood :-)
Sandro Hawke: good luck chairing, davidwood :-) ←
15:59:42 <davidwood> Thanks, sandro :)
David Wood: Thanks, sandro :) ←
16:00:10 <gavinc> q?
Gavin Carothers: q? ←
16:00:18 <davidwood> ack ericP
David Wood: ack ericP ←
16:00:18 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask how this is different from named identifiers?
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask how this is different from named identifiers? ←
16:00:27 <MacTed> q-
Ted Thibodeau: q- ←
16:00:29 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:00:34 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:01:28 <sandro> eric: Zhe raised the concern that shared blank node labels in a big trig file could be a maintenance problem.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zhe raised the concern that shared blank node labels in a big trig file could be a maintenance problem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:01:44 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:01:44 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask wether stores that don't support shared bnodes conform to SPARQL
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to ask wether stores that don't support shared bnodes conform to SPARQL ←
16:01:47 <AndyS> ericP: concern (oracle) is that shared across graphs for OWL (e.g.). Issue is persistent identifiers. How is more complex to have shared bnodes than URIs?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: concern (oracle) is that shared across graphs for OWL (e.g.). Issue is persistent identifiers. How is more complex to have shared bnodes than URIs? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
16:01:49 <sandro> eric: How is that harder than dealing with URLs that are shared between graphs.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: How is that harder than dealing with URLs that are shared between graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:01:53 <zwu2> not following you, eric
Zhe Wu: not following you, eric ←
16:01:59 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:02:18 <sandro> cygri: bnodes are variables, so sharing them is more complex.
Richard Cyganiak: bnodes are variables, so sharing them is more complex. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:02:56 <sandro> cygri: Does a conforming SPARQL store have to support shared blank nodes?
Richard Cyganiak: Does a conforming SPARQL store have to support shared blank nodes? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:03:08 <SteveH> I can say that making 4store behave so that bNode label scope is the document would be very easy, and there would be few additional side effects
Steve Harris: I can say that making 4store behave so that bNode label scope is the document would be very easy, and there would be few additional side effects ←
16:03:28 <sandro> AndyS: There is a test on this, Yes.
Andy Seaborne: There is a test on this, Yes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:03:35 <davidwood> ack Souri
David Wood: ack Souri ←
16:03:35 <Zakim> Souri, you wanted to say (if we do go with bNode sharing amongst graphs) why address it partially? Why restrict the context to a single trig document? One could define a context
Zakim IRC Bot: Souri, you wanted to say (if we do go with bNode sharing amongst graphs) why address it partially? Why restrict the context to a single trig document? One could define a context ←
16:03:38 <Zakim> ... (as a set of trig documents, for example) for which graphs share bNode ids.
Zakim IRC Bot: ... (as a set of trig documents, for example) for which graphs share bNode ids. ←
16:04:08 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:04:14 <SteveH> Souri, if you want to do that you have Skolem URIs
Steve Harris: Souri, if you want to do that you have Skolem URIs ←
16:05:02 <gkellogg> sharing BNodes across parser runs is what Skolum ids are for, no?
Gregg Kellogg: sharing BNodes across parser runs is what Skolum ids are for, no? ←
16:05:14 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
16:05:18 <sandro> q-
Sandro Hawke: q- ←
16:05:53 <LeeF> :-D
Lee Feigenbaum: :-D ←
16:05:55 <Souri> :-)
Souripriya Das: :-) ←
16:05:57 <AndyS> david: asks cygri about current position after discussion
David Wood: asks cygri about current position after discussion [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
16:06:50 <AndyS> cygri: accept people want to do this. Not convinced this is the right thing to do. I ask "what breaks" .. need to think about it.
Richard Cyganiak: accept people want to do this. Not convinced this is the right thing to do. I ask "what breaks" .. need to think about it. [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
16:07:20 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
16:07:23 <AndyS> ... not in a position at the moment to say I accept
Andy Seaborne: ... not in a position at the moment to say I accept ←
16:07:26 <SteveH> Question for cygri, would you prefer it was undefined / implementation defined as it is now?
Steve Harris: Question for cygri, would you prefer it was undefined / implementation defined as it is now? ←
16:07:36 <Zakim> +ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP ←
16:08:08 <Zakim> -ScottB
Zakim IRC Bot: -ScottB ←
16:08:26 <SteveH> I don't think it's reasonable to consider this as a small change!
Steve Harris: I don't think it's reasonable to consider this as a small change! ←
16:08:42 <zwu2> there are implementations on the line, David,
Zhe Wu: there are implementations on the line, David, ←
16:08:45 <AndyS> david: we need to make progress ... agenda was little steps for things after some time of the RDF-WG running
David Wood: we need to make progress ... agenda was little steps for things after some time of the RDF-WG running [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
16:08:46 <zwu2> it is not a small issue
Zhe Wu: it is not a small issue ←
16:08:47 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
16:08:56 <sandro> My question for cygri is (a) how else can we do sparql backups and (b) how else to do http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs#Separation_of_Inference
Sandro Hawke: My question for cygri is (a) how else can we do sparql backups and (b) how else to do http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs#Separation_of_Inference ←
16:09:35 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:09:36 <PatH> Sorry Im late. Wassup?
Patrick Hayes: Sorry Im late. Wassup? ←
16:09:46 <sandro> rofl PatH
Sandro Hawke: rofl PatH ←
16:10:00 <davidwood> ISSUE-21 was opened on 2011-04-01
David Wood: ISSUE-21 was opened on 2011-04-01 ←
16:10:01 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21 ←
16:10:04 <PatH> Tnx.
Patrick Hayes: Tnx. ←
16:10:34 <gavinc> +q
Gavin Carothers: +q ←
16:10:42 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
16:11:21 <SteveH> q+ to give my position
Steve Harris: q+ to give my position ←
16:11:31 <davidwood> ack gavinc
David Wood: ack gavinc ←
16:11:58 <AndyS> ACTION: cygri: send email to list about bNodes labels in TriG docs
ACTION: cygri: send email to list about bNodes labels in TriG docs ←
16:11:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-183 - Send email to list about bNodes labels in TriG docs [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-09-12].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-183 - Send email to list about bNodes labels in TriG docs [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-09-12]. ←
16:12:25 <davidwood> ack SteveH
David Wood: ack SteveH ←
16:12:25 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to give my position
Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to give my position ←
16:12:51 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
16:12:55 <Zakim> +ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP ←
16:13:11 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:13:13 <AndyS> steveH: most important is consensus and consistency
Steve Harris: most important is consensus and consistency [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
16:14:10 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
16:14:16 <sandro> davidwood: Meeting is adjourned.
David Wood: Meeting is adjourned. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:14:16 <sandro> Topic: After meeting discussion
16:15:04 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
16:15:16 <SteveH> the agenda could have linked to the threads
Steve Harris: the agenda could have linked to the threads ←
16:15:32 <davidwood> Souri, the meeting (and thus the queue) is closed.
David Wood: Souri, the meeting (and thus the queue) is closed. ←
16:15:44 <Arnaud> I feel David's pain but agree with Sandro, it doesn't seem fair to suddenly force resolution
Arnaud Le Hors: I feel David's pain but agree with Sandro, it doesn't seem fair to suddenly force resolution ←
16:16:28 <AndyS> never mind
Andy Seaborne: never mind ←
16:16:31 <SteveH> AndyS, you might nee to type
Steve Harris: AndyS, you might nee to type ←
16:16:56 <davidwood> Zakim, who is on the phone?
David Wood: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:16:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan (muted), davidwood, Arnaud, AZ, MacTed (muted), gkellogg, Souri, Sandro, SteveH, gavinc, zwu2, cygri, LeeF, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan (muted), davidwood, Arnaud, AZ, MacTed (muted), gkellogg, Souri, Sandro, SteveH, gavinc, zwu2, cygri, LeeF, ericP ←
16:17:02 <AndyS> much frustration of blocking by very high bar being introduced in a TC
Andy Seaborne: much frustration of blocking by very high bar being introduced in a TC ←
16:17:17 <Arnaud> +1 to sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 to sandro ←
16:18:25 <sandro> sandro: I'm fine with us demanding more of participants -- eg reading the email -- but lets not do it quite so suddenly.
Sandro Hawke: I'm fine with us demanding more of participants -- eg reading the email -- but lets not do it quite so suddenly. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:19:37 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
16:19:47 <Souri> why not extend Trig to have named contexts as scopes for bNode sharing graphs (in a trig document): context <http://.../C1> graphs {G1, G2} . context <http://.../C2> graphs {G3, G4, G9}
Souripriya Das: why not extend Trig to have named contexts as scopes for bNode sharing graphs (in a trig document): context <http://.../C1> graphs {G1, G2} . context <http://.../C2> graphs {G3, G4, G9} ←
16:20:29 <Zakim> -gkellogg
Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg ←
16:20:32 <AndyS> I'd rather make bNodes anon individuals ... that is way out of scope!
Andy Seaborne: I'd rather make bNodes anon individuals ... that is way out of scope! ←
16:20:37 <PatH> PLase don't call them "contexts", though. HOw about 'scopes'?
Patrick Hayes: PLase don't call them "contexts", though. HOw about 'scopes'? ←
16:20:44 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS
Steve Harris: +1 to AndyS ←
16:20:50 <SteveH> …on both counts
Steve Harris: …on both counts ←
16:21:40 <SteveH> This isn't a small decision - it effects existing systems
Steve Harris: This isn't a small decision - it effects existing systems ←
16:21:43 <cygri> it is not a trivial issue.
Richard Cyganiak: it is not a trivial issue. ←
16:22:05 <Souri> Yes, scopes (instead of contexts). bNodeScope <http://.../SC1> graphs {G1, G2} . bNodeScope <http://.../SC2> graphs {G3, G4, G9}
Souripriya Das: Yes, scopes (instead of contexts). bNodeScope <http://.../SC1> graphs {G1, G2} . bNodeScope <http://.../SC2> graphs {G3, G4, G9} ←
16:22:06 <AndyS> so go for the form that limits the change needed ??
Andy Seaborne: so go for the form that limits the change needed ?? ←
16:22:41 <SteveH> exactly
Steve Harris: exactly ←
16:23:26 <PatH> IS there a current accepted consensus? The two obvious ones are document scope and graph scope. Is either of these the current reality?
Patrick Hayes: IS there a current accepted consensus? The two obvious ones are document scope and graph scope. Is either of these the current reality? ←
16:23:42 <SteveH> PatH, everyone does one of those
Steve Harris: PatH, everyone does one of those ←
16:23:42 <Guus> sure
Guus Schreiber: sure ←
16:23:59 <sandro> PatH, we tried to reach consensus and everyone but Richard was okay with document-scope. Richard said he needed to think about it more.
Sandro Hawke: PatH, we tried to reach consensus and everyone but Richard was okay with document-scope. Richard said he needed to think about it more. ←
16:24:01 <SteveH> PatH, some people care more than others, and we don't know which is more common
Steve Harris: PatH, some people care more than others, and we don't know which is more common ←
16:24:04 <PatH> But some do one and some do the other?
Patrick Hayes: But some do one and some do the other? ←
16:24:15 <SteveH> sandro, Richard and Souri were unhappy
Steve Harris: sandro, Richard and Souri were unhappy ←
16:24:19 <PatH> Sounds like its time to think some more :-)
Patrick Hayes: Sounds like its time to think some more :-) ←
16:24:27 <SteveH> PatH, yes, you have to do one or the other
Steve Harris: PatH, yes, you have to do one or the other ←
16:24:54 <SteveH> …realistically, you could pick a behaviour at random I guess :)
Steve Harris: …realistically, you could pick a behaviour at random I guess :) ←
16:25:01 <Souri> I'd suggest using explicit bNode Sharing Scopes
Souripriya Das: I'd suggest using explicit bNode Sharing Scopes ←
16:25:03 <LeeF> I would not object to either discussion here.
Lee Feigenbaum: I would not object to either decision here. ←
16:25:07 <SteveH> same here
Steve Harris: same here ←
16:25:08 <LeeF> s/discussion/decision
16:25:39 <PatH> HOw about: default is document scope, but have a way to 'tighten scope around a graph, maybe with a syntax marker?
Patrick Hayes: HOw about: default is document scope, but have a way to 'tighten scope around a graph, maybe with a syntax marker? ←
16:26:04 <PatH> After all, graph scope is document scope + being careful with bnodeIDs.
Patrick Hayes: After all, graph scope is document scope + being careful with bnodeIDs. ←
16:26:23 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:26:23 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:26:42 <Souri> Agree with Pat, but would like the scope to be named, so that from other documents we can refer to this scope.
Souripriya Das: Agree with Pat, but would like the scope to be named, so that from other documents we can refer to this scope. ←
16:26:45 <sandro> Andy: likely I'd formally object to graph-scope blank node labels.
Andy Seaborne: likely I'd formally object to graph-scope blank node labels. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:27:11 <SteveH> A strawpoll that informed a proposal would have helped I think
Steve Harris: A strawpoll that informed a proposal would have helped I think ←
16:27:11 <Guus> I like Pat's proposal, but am wary of additional syntax
Guus Schreiber: I like Pat's proposal, but am wary of additional syntax ←
16:27:29 <Souri> ... and the scopes cannot be bNodes -- must be IRIs
Souripriya Das: ... and the scopes cannot be bNodes -- must be IRIs ←
16:27:31 <AndyS> (sandro - the meeting is adjourned - I was going to truncate the minutes to when David said adjourned - is that best practice?)
Andy Seaborne: (sandro - the meeting is adjourned - I was going to truncate the minutes to when David said adjourned - is that best practice?) ←
16:27:33 <SteveH> We would object to any significant deviation from existing TriG implementaitons
Steve Harris: We would object to any significant deviation from existing TriG implementaitons ←
16:27:43 <SteveH> such as extra syntax
Steve Harris: such as extra syntax ←
16:27:46 <PatH> I was thinking more that a graph could have a flag indicating that its nodeIDs are private to it. WIderscopeists can treat this as a signal to standardize apaprt.
Patrick Hayes: I was thinking more that a graph could have a flag indicating that its nodeIDs are private to it. WIderscopeists can treat this as a signal to standardize apaprt. ←
16:27:57 <sandro> AndyS, I think this stuff is valuable -- I'd keep it as "after-meeting discussion"
Sandro Hawke: AndyS, I think this stuff is valuable -- I'd keep it as "after-meeting discussion" ←
16:28:16 <AndyS> sandro - ack - leave in IRC, not in minutes?
Andy Seaborne: sandro - ack - leave in IRC, not in minutes? ←
16:28:25 <Guus> not breaking current practice should be a key concern
Guus Schreiber: not breaking current practice should be a key concern ←
16:28:40 <SteveH> yes
Steve Harris: yes ←
16:28:42 <AndyS> so what TriG impls should we check?
Andy Seaborne: so what TriG impls should we check? ←
16:29:20 <sandro> AndyS, I would keep in minutes, with clear heading, but it's your call
Sandro Hawke: AndyS, I would keep in minutes, with clear heading, but it's your call ←
16:30:01 <gavinc> RESOLVE to close ISSUE-82 with the wording: "In a TriG document graph statements with the same graph IRI should be unioned to form a single RDF Graph. Blank nodes in each graph statement with the same label are considered to be the same blank node."
Gavin Carothers: RESOLVE to close ISSUE-82 with the wording: "In a TriG document graph statements with the same graph IRI should be unioned to form a single RDF Graph. Blank nodes in each graph statement with the same label are considered to be the same blank node." ←
16:30:03 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
16:30:15 <AndyS> redland, sesame, jena, rdflib, perl RDF::..., dotnetrdf, (ruby), javascript, 4store, ... what more?
Andy Seaborne: redland, sesame, jena, rdflib, perl RDF::..., dotnetrdf, (ruby), javascript, 4store, ... what more? ←
16:30:54 <LeeF> Anzo I reported on already
Lee Feigenbaum: Anzo I reported on already ←
16:31:00 <davidwood> AndyS, not really, no :)
David Wood: AndyS, not really, no :) ←
16:31:31 <SteveH> AndyS, Oracle?
Steve Harris: AndyS, Oracle? ←
16:31:46 <AndyS> virtuoso, DB2RDF, anzo, oracle (already mentioned here),
Andy Seaborne: virtuoso, DB2RDF, anzo, oracle (already mentioned here), ←
16:31:49 <davidwood> Oracle uses Jena's parser, no?
David Wood: Oracle uses Jena's parser, no? ←
16:31:59 <Souri> Steve, not sure what the question is?
Souripriya Das: Steve, not sure what the question is? ←
16:32:02 <SteveH> 5store, but it's probably not fair to count that as well, and actually I don't know what it does here
Steve Harris: 5store, but it's probably not fair to count that as well, and actually I don't know what it does here ←
16:32:07 <AndyS> Oracle uses Redland and Jena at different time IIRC
Andy Seaborne: Oracle uses Redland and Jena at different time IIRC ←
16:32:46 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
16:32:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan (muted), davidwood, Arnaud, AZ, MacTed, Souri, Sandro, SteveH, gavinc, zwu2, cygri, LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan (muted), davidwood, Arnaud, AZ, MacTed, Souri, Sandro, SteveH, gavinc, zwu2, cygri, LeeF ←
16:34:26 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:34:31 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:34:32 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
16:34:34 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:34:35 <Zakim> -cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri ←
16:34:35 <Zakim> -davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood ←
16:34:37 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
16:34:38 <Zakim> -SteveH
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH ←
16:34:38 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
16:34:40 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
16:34:43 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
16:34:46 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:34:48 <Zakim> - +1.707.318.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.707.318.aabb ←
16:39:47 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, zwu2, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, zwu2, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:39:48 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended ←
16:39:48 <Zakim> Attendees were Guus, AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan, +1.540.898.aacc, +1.408.996.aadd, Arnaud, davidwood, +1.781.273.aaee, AZ, +1.603.897.aaff, MacTed, gkellogg, Souri, Sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Guus, AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan, +1.540.898.aacc, +1.408.996.aadd, Arnaud, davidwood, +1.781.273.aaee, AZ, +1.603.897.aaff, MacTed, gkellogg, Souri, Sandro, ←
16:39:48 <Zakim> ... ScottB, SteveH, +1.617.324.aagg, ericP, +1.707.861.aahh, gavinc, zwu2, +3539149aajj, +3539149aakk, cygri, +1.617.553.aall, LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ScottB, SteveH, +1.617.324.aagg, ericP, +1.707.861.aahh, gavinc, zwu2, +3539149aajj, +3539149aakk, cygri, +1.617.553.aall, LeeF ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#1) generated 2012-09-05 17:10:33 UTC by 'aseaborne', comments: None