RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 11 April 2012

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, Dan Brickley, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Nicholas Humfrey, Patrick Hayes, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Sandro Hawke, Souripriya Das, Steve Harris, Ted Thibodeau, Tom Baker
Guests
Tom Baker
Scribe
Pierre-Antoine Champin
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions

None.

Topics
14:09:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/11-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/11-rdf-wg-irc

14:09:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:09:36 <pchampin_> Guest: Tom (tbaker) Baker
14:09:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

14:09:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 51 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 51 minutes

14:09:39 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:09:39 <trackbot> Date: 11 April 2012
14:57:15 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 47 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

14:57:21 <Zakim> +??P0

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0

14:57:26 <AndyS> zakim, ??P0 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P0 is me

14:57:26 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

14:57:34 <AndyS> trackbot, start meeting

Andy Seaborne: trackbot, start meeting

14:57:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:57:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

14:57:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

14:57:40 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:57:40 <trackbot> Date: 11 April 2012
14:57:56 <AndyS> zakim, this is 73394

Andy Seaborne: zakim, this is 73394

14:57:56 <Zakim> ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

14:58:07 <Zakim> + +1.540.898.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.540.898.aaaa

14:58:09 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:58:09 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:58:11 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

14:58:20 <NickH> +44.203.318.0479 isn't Zakim anymore!

Nicholas Humfrey: +44.203.318.0479 isn't Zakim anymore!

14:58:30 <NickH> it is some American company

Nicholas Humfrey: it is some American company

14:59:08 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

14:59:20 <NickH> Zakim, ??P3 is me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P3 is me

14:59:20 <Zakim> +NickH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it

14:59:27 <NickH> NickH: still here http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.04.11

Nicholas Humfrey: still here http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.04.11 [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ]

14:59:31 <NickH> arg

Nicholas Humfrey: arg

14:59:39 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?

David Wood: Zakim, who is here?

14:59:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, +1.540.898.aaaa, Ivan, NickH

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AndyS, +1.540.898.aaaa, Ivan, NickH

14:59:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see tbaker, pchampin_, gavinc, danbri_, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, swh, MacTed, LeeF, mischat, ivan, Arnaud, davidwood, manu1, manu, yvesr_, NickH, trackbot, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see tbaker, pchampin_, gavinc, danbri_, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, swh, MacTed, LeeF, mischat, ivan, Arnaud, davidwood, manu1, manu, yvesr_, NickH, trackbot, sandro, ericP

14:59:52 <davidwood> Zakim, aaaa is me

David Wood: Zakim, aaaa is me

14:59:52 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it

14:59:58 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.861.aabb

15:00:00 <NickH> Zakim, mute me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, mute me

15:00:00 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted

15:00:04 <gavinc> Zakim, aabb is me

Gavin Carothers: Zakim, aabb is me

15:00:04 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it

15:01:04 <Zakim> + +1.781.899.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.781.899.aacc

15:01:45 <davidwood> tbaker, please try again

David Wood: tbaker, please try again

15:01:55 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.996.aadd

15:02:13 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

15:02:15 <Arnaud> zakim, aadd is me

Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, aadd is me

15:02:15 <Zakim> +Arnaud; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud; got it

15:02:25 <Zakim> +??P13

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13

15:02:28 <pchampin_> zakim, ??P8 is me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P8 is me

15:02:29 <Zakim> +pchampin_; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin_; got it

15:02:42 <tbaker> zakim, ??P13 is tbaker

Tom Baker: zakim, ??P13 is tbaker

15:02:45 <Zakim> +tbaker; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tbaker; got it

15:02:51 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

15:02:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, davidwood, Ivan, NickH (muted), gavinc, +1.781.899.aacc, Arnaud, pchampin_, tbaker

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AndyS, davidwood, Ivan, NickH (muted), gavinc, +1.781.899.aacc, Arnaud, pchampin_, tbaker

15:03:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, tbaker, pchampin_, gavinc, danbri_, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, swh, MacTed, LeeF, mischat, ivan, Arnaud, davidwood, manu1, manu, yvesr_, NickH, trackbot, sandro,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see PatH, tbaker, pchampin_, gavinc, danbri_, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, swh, MacTed, LeeF, mischat, ivan, Arnaud, davidwood, manu1, manu, yvesr_, NickH, trackbot, sandro,

15:03:08 <Zakim> ... ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... ericP

15:03:10 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

15:03:12 <sandro> zakim, aacc is Sandro

Sandro Hawke: zakim, aacc is Sandro

15:03:16 <Zakim> +Sandro; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro; got it

15:03:16 <swh> Zakim, ??P14 is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P14 is me

15:03:24 <Zakim> + +31.20.598.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +31.20.598.aaee

15:03:26 <Zakim> +swh; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +swh; got it

15:03:37 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

15:03:44 <ivan> zakim, aaee is Guus

Ivan Herman: zakim, aaee is Guus

15:03:55 <Zakim> +Guus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus; got it

15:03:58 <Zakim> + +1.781.273.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.781.273.aaff

15:04:09 <MacTed> Zakim, aaff is OpenLink_Software

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, aaff is OpenLink_Software

15:04:19 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software; got it

15:04:39 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Softwareis temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Softwareis temporarily me

15:04:41 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:04:46 <pchampin_> scribe: pchampin

(Scribe set to Pierre-Antoine Champin)

15:04:47 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:04:48 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:04:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'OpenLink_Softwareis temporarily me', MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'OpenLink_Softwareis temporarily me', MacTed

15:04:56 <Zakim> sorry, MacTed, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, MacTed, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

15:05:00 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:05:01 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 4 Apr telecon:

David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 4 Apr telecon:

15:05:01 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-04-04

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-04-04

15:05:06 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:05:06 <pchampin_> topic: last week minutes

1. last week minutes

15:05:27 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

15:05:32 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

15:05:40 <pchampin_> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 4 Apr telecon

RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 4 Apr telecon

15:05:44 <davidwood> Action item review:

David Wood: Action item review:

15:05:44 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - item

15:05:44 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

15:05:44 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

15:05:54 <pchampin_> topic: action item review

2. action item review

15:06:15 <Zakim> +??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25

15:06:29 <gavinc> Andy's review is complete. And we asked Pierre Antoine not to do it yet

Gavin Carothers: Andy's review is complete. And we asked Pierre Antoine not to do it yet

15:06:41 <AZ> zakim, ??P25 is me

Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, ??P25 is me

15:06:41 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

15:06:50 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aagg

15:07:15 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

15:07:15 <Souri> zakim, aagg is me

Souripriya Das: zakim, aagg is me

15:07:16 <Zakim> +Souri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri; got it

15:07:32 <AndyS> q-

Andy Seaborne: q-

15:07:44 <Zakim> +LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF

15:07:56 <AndyS> My review is gone-as-much as i can - need to do grammar

Andy Seaborne: My review is gone-as-much as i can - need to do grammar

15:09:31 <AndyS> close ACTION-157

Andy Seaborne: close ACTION-157

15:09:31 <trackbot> ACTION-157 Review Turtle LC draft by April 9 closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-157 Review Turtle LC draft by April 9 closed

15:09:52 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.324.aahh

15:09:56 <pchampin_> david: Tom Baker is with us today

David Wood: Tom Baker is with us today

15:10:05 <ericP> Zakim, aahh is me

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, aahh is me

15:10:05 <Zakim> +ericP; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP; got it

15:10:09 <pchampin_> ... he is involved in the RDF for Library group

... he was involved in the RDF for Library Incubator group

15:10:19 <ivan> s/is/was/
15:10:23 <pchampin_> ... and came to us to discuss a use case he has for named graphs

... and came to us to discuss a use case he has for named graphs

15:10:36 <ivan> s/Library group/Library Incubator group/
15:10:47 <pchampin_> ... may be an important one to include in our short list

... may be an important one to include in our short list

15:11:06 <pchampin_> topic: named graphs

3. named graphs

15:11:23 <gavinc> Functional Requirements for Bibliographic Records (FRBR)

Gavin Carothers: Functional Requirements for Bibliographic Records (FRBR)

15:11:24 <davidwood> s/Library Incubator group/Library Linked Data Interest Group/
15:11:40 <pchampin_> tbaker: distinction between general properties of a resource (title, subject)

Tom Baker: distinction between general properties of a resource (title, subject)

15:12:04 <ivan> s/Data Interest Group/Data Incubator Group/
15:12:08 <pchampin_> ... and very specific properties (e.g. the fact that it's missing a page)

... and very specific properties (e.g. the fact that it's missing a page)

15:12:49 <PatH> zakim, unmute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me

15:12:49 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

15:13:05 <ivan> zakim, mute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me

15:13:05 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted

15:13:07 <pchampin_> ... FRBR has different levels, from very generic to very specific (Work/Expression/Manifestation/Item)

... FRBR has different levels, from very generic to very specific (Work/Expression/Manifestation/Item)

15:13:17 <pchampin_> ... semantized as four disjoint classes

... semantized as four disjoint classes

15:13:52 <pchampin_> ... problem: in the end of the day, I'm describing a book, a single thing, not 4 distinct entities

... problem: in the end of the day, I'm describing a book, a single thing, not 4 distinct entities

15:14:34 <pchampin_> ... if I'm describing a bible, some properties will apply to the Work or the Expression

... if I'm describing a bible, some properties will apply to the Work or the Expression

15:14:41 <pchampin_> ... while some others will apply to the Item

... while some others will apply to the Item

15:14:47 <ivan> -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRBR Functional Requirements for Bibliographic Records

Ivan Herman: -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRBR Functional Requirements for Bibliographic Records

15:14:48 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

15:14:55 <pchampin_> ... but I don't want to have to specify to which it applies for every property

... but I don't want to have to specify to which it applies for every property

15:15:39 <pchampin_> ... idea: to use named graphs

... idea: to use named graphs

15:15:44 <Zakim> +gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc

15:16:09 <pchampin_> ... you have 4 chunks of  statements :

... you have 4 chunks of statements :

15:16:15 <ivan> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2012Apr/0001.html Tom's email with the details

Ivan Herman: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2012Apr/0001.html Tom's email with the details

15:16:32 <pchampin_> work-level, expression-level, manifestation-level, item-level

work-level, expression-level, manifestation-level, item-level

15:16:50 <pchampin_> ... work-level, expression-level, manifestation-level, item-level

... work-level, expression-level, manifestation-level, item-level

15:17:14 <pchampin_> ... each maintained at different level (national library for the work-level, personal? for item-level)

... each maintained at different level (national library for the work-level, personal? for item-level)

15:17:33 <pchampin_> ... better solution than to copy-paste info from high-level to low-level?

... better solution than to copy-paste info from high-level to low-level?

15:18:33 <pchampin_> ... refering to "frames" as a mean to merge information from different levels; is that the same as a graph?

... refering to "frames" as a mean to merge information from different levels; is that the same as a graph?

15:18:53 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:18:54 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:19:00 <gavinc> q+

Gavin Carothers: q+

15:19:57 <pchampin_> david: where do you see the line between what should be handled by RDF itself, and what should be handled by a higher level application?

David Wood: where do you see the line between what should be handled by RDF itself, and what should be handled by a higher level application?

15:20:51 <ivan> ack PatH

Ivan Herman: ack PatH

15:20:59 <pchampin_> tbaker: the notion of "frame" seems to be close to the notion of named graph, hence relevant for RDF

Tom Baker: the notion of "frame" seems to be close to the notion of named graph, hence relevant for RDF

15:21:05 <davidwood> tbaker: Hopes that RDF will support named graphs and merges of named graphs.

Tom Baker: Hopes that RDF will support named graphs and merges of named graphs. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

15:21:08 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

15:21:30 <pchampin_> ... then the way item-level inherits manifestation-level but not the other way around would be application specific

... then the way item-level inherits manifestation-level but not the other way around would be application specific

15:21:49 <pchampin_> pat: why named graphs? why not simply graphs?

Patrick Hayes: why named graphs? why not simply graphs?

15:22:35 <pchampin_> tbaker: provenance is an important feature for the library world

Tom Baker: provenance is an important feature for the library world

15:24:10 <pchampin_> pat: then what do you want to name? a static graph or a "box" whose content may change in time?

Patrick Hayes: then what do you want to name? a static graph or a "box" whose content may change in time?

15:25:09 <pchampin_> tbaker: that would rather be the "box"

Tom Baker: that would rather be the "box"

15:25:17 <pchampin_> ... although there would be some versioning issue,

... although there would be some versioning issue,

15:25:42 <pchampin_> ... you would want to be able to access a previous version of a given description level

... you would want to be able to access a previous version of a given description level

15:25:46 <davidwood> ack gavinc

David Wood: ack gavinc

15:26:15 <tbaker> URL of the FRBR use case mentioned by Gavin?

Tom Baker: URL of the FRBR use case mentioned by Gavin?

15:26:18 <pchampin_> gavin: I hope that some of our use cases match, as they come from an implementation of FRBR in RDF

Gavin Carothers: I hope that some of our use cases match, as they come from an implementation of FRBR in RDF

15:27:35 <tbaker> +1 for dynamic

Tom Baker: +1 for dynamic

15:27:44 <pchampin_> gavin: in that implementation, the naming *had* to be dynamic (i.e. name "boxes" rather than static graphs)

Gavin Carothers: in that implementation, the naming *had* to be dynamic (i.e. name "boxes" rather than static graphs)

15:27:57 <pchampin_> ... as different organizations maintained different levels

... as different organizations maintained different levels

15:28:30 <pchampin_> ... and they had to reference someone else's description, despite the fact that this description might evolve

... and they had to reference someone else's description, despite the fact that this description might evolve

15:28:40 <tbaker> q+ to ask if Gavin has proposed something quite similar to this concept?

Tom Baker: q+ to ask if Gavin has proposed something quite similar to this concept?

15:29:35 <pchampin_> gavin: not everything true about the work has to be true about the item

Gavin Carothers: not everything true about the work has to be true about the item

15:29:58 <davidwood> ack tbaker

David Wood: ack tbaker

15:29:58 <Zakim> tbaker, you wanted to ask if Gavin has proposed something quite similar to this concept?

Zakim IRC Bot: tbaker, you wanted to ask if Gavin has proposed something quite similar to this concept?

15:29:59 <pchampin_> ... e.g. the title of the item may include the words "2nd edition", while the title of the work does not include them

... e.g. the title of the item may include the words "2nd edition", while the title of the work does not include them

15:30:01 <PatH> q+ for my third q

Patrick Hayes: q+ for my third q

15:30:42 <pchampin_> tbaker: this is an interesting question to the library people

Tom Baker: this is an interesting question to the library people

15:30:51 <pchampin_> ... which use case are about FRBR, precisely?

... which use case are about FRBR, precisely?

15:31:30 <pchampin_> gavin: the term FRBR does not appear explicitly, but several of them come from that implementation

Gavin Carothers: the term FRBR does not appear explicitly, but several of them come from that implementation

15:31:40 <pchampin_> ... an example is: using the subject of the graph as the name of the graph

... an example is: using the subject of the graph as the name of the graph

15:31:40 <PatH> tbaker says +1 for dynamic but he also wants strict provenancing for old versions, so there has to be some static stuff under the hood.

Patrick Hayes: tbaker says +1 for dynamic but he also wants strict provenancing for old versions, so there has to be some static stuff under the hood.

15:32:29 <pchampin_> tbaker: this notion of primary subject is an important question for us

Tom Baker: this notion of primary subject is an important question for us

15:32:29 <tbaker> q-

Tom Baker: q-

15:33:05 <PatH> i will stay on the q until this topic is done.

Patrick Hayes: i will stay on the q until this topic is done.

15:33:12 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

15:33:13 <pchampin_> david: we've been discussing a way to associate information to the graph itself, rather than the graph content

David Wood: we've been discussing a way to associate information to the graph itself, rather than the graph content

15:33:23 <Zakim> -NickH

Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH

15:33:25 <pchampin_> ... would that address this question about the primary subject?

... would that address this question about the primary subject?

15:33:33 <ericP> q+ to present two representations <http://codepad.org/d9Cl2yiy>

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to present two representations <http://codepad.org/d9Cl2yiy>

15:33:35 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

15:33:35 <Zakim> PatH, you wanted to discuss my third q

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH, you wanted to discuss my third q

15:33:37 <pchampin_> tbaker: yes, that would be helpful

Tom Baker: yes, that would be helpful

15:34:01 <ericP> http://codepad.org/d9Cl2yiy

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://codepad.org/d9Cl2yiy

15:34:11 <gavinc> +q to answer why you need named graphs

Gavin Carothers: +q to answer why you need named graphs

15:34:50 <gavinc> -q

Gavin Carothers: -q

15:35:07 <pchampin_> eric: what is the motivation again for having separate graphs rather than one big graph?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: what is the motivation again for having separate graphs rather than one big graph?

15:35:14 <pchampin_> ... (see URL above)

... (see URL above)

15:35:28 <pchampin_> tbaker: the motivation is to have the different graphs maintained by different people

Tom Baker: the motivation is to have the different graphs maintained by different people

15:35:40 <pchampin_> ... and different provenance information associate with them

... and different provenance information associate with them

15:37:18 <MacTed> descriptionOfWork generated by, transcribed by, input by...

Ted Thibodeau: descriptionOfWork generated by, transcribed by, input by...

15:37:18 <MacTed> work generated by, edited by, printed by...

Ted Thibodeau: work generated by, edited by, printed by...

15:37:18 <MacTed> regarding "primary subject", these may be useful predicates -- foaf:primaryTopic , foaf:topic

Ted Thibodeau: regarding "primary subject", these may be useful predicates -- foaf:primaryTopic , foaf:topic

15:37:28 <ericP> http://codepad.org/MuEeISyf

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://codepad.org/MuEeISyf

15:37:51 <davidwood> ack ericP

David Wood: ack ericP

15:37:51 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to present two representations <http://codepad.org/d9Cl2yiy>

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to present two representations <http://codepad.org/d9Cl2yiy>

15:39:24 <gavinc> btw there should be relationships between work1G expression1G manifestation1G and item1G

Gavin Carothers: btw there should be relationships between work1G expression1G manifestation1G and item1G

15:39:30 <gavinc> otherwise I have no idea why you'd bother ;)

Gavin Carothers: otherwise I have no idea why you'd bother ;)

15:39:43 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:39:51 <davidwood> Social convention is allowed :)

David Wood: Social convention is allowed :)

15:41:23 <MacTed> context!

Ted Thibodeau: context!

15:41:28 <pchampin_> eric: where would I put information stating "Moby Dick is a bad whale"?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: where would I put information stating "Moby Dick is a bad whale"?

15:41:33 <ericP> http://codepad.org/gLghUHoo

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://codepad.org/gLghUHoo

15:42:04 <pchampin_> tbaker: this is the kind of question that would generate a lot of discussion in the library community

Tom Baker: this is the kind of question that would generate a lot of discussion in the library community

15:42:13 <ericP> gavinc, can you give me a relationship to add to the trig?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, can you give me a relationship to add to the trig?

15:42:16 <pchampin_> ... everyone agrees that it is good to have different levels

... everyone agrees that it is good to have different levels

15:42:23 <PatH> tom just made the case for rdf :-)

Patrick Hayes: tom just made the case for rdf :-)

15:42:24 <ericP> (between work1G and expression1G)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: (between work1G and expression1G)

15:42:34 <pchampin_> ... but there is disagreement about where to draw the line

... but there is disagreement about where to draw the line

15:42:47 <gavinc> ericP: http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html will help ;)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html will help ;) [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ]

15:42:57 <davidwood> ack ivan

David Wood: ack ivan

15:43:59 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:44:04 <pchampin_> ivan: in eric's example, the graphs are mostly not relating to each other

Ivan Herman: in eric's example, the graphs are mostly not relating to each other

15:44:16 <pchampin_> ... so something must be missing

... so something must be missing

15:44:58 <pchampin_> ... how do you expect the properties to "fly" from work to item, e.g.,

... how do you expect the properties to "fly" from work to item, e.g.,

15:45:11 <pchampin_> ... do you expect a generic mechanism to take care of this for you?

... do you expect a generic mechanism to take care of this for you?

15:45:13 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/microdata.html#examples-1

Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/microdata.html#examples-1

15:45:24 <gavinc> Example FRBR relationships

Gavin Carothers: Example FRBR relationships

15:45:25 <pchampin_> ... or would that be FRBR-specific rules?

... or would that be FRBR-specific rules?

15:45:38 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:45:38 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:46:19 <MacTed> there are triples left out of the "Many Named Graphs" example

Ted Thibodeau: there are triples left out of the "Many Named Graphs" example

15:46:33 <pchampin_> tbaker: re. FRBR-specific rule, same answer as to David's question sooner.

Tom Baker: re. FRBR-specific rule, same answer as to David's question sooner.

15:46:34 <MacTed> they *are* there in the "One RDF Graph" ... and they *should* be in the second as well

Ted Thibodeau: they *are* there in the "One RDF Graph" ... and they *should* be in the second as well

15:46:36 <gavinc> properties frbr:realization, frbr:realizationOf etc

Gavin Carothers: properties frbr:realization, frbr:realizationOf etc

15:48:14 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

15:48:41 <MacTed> q+ to say inference is commonplace for e.g., subclassOf

Ted Thibodeau: q+ to say inference is commonplace for e.g., subclassOf

15:49:38 <pchampin_> tbaker: the "inheritance" rules would be FRBR-specific; but what can be generic is how to merge different kinds of informations stored in different named graphs

Tom Baker: the "inheritance" rules would be FRBR-specific; but what can be generic is how to merge different kinds of informations stored in different named graphs

15:49:46 <ericP> http://codepad.org/NH3S6CJi copies the subject relationships from the turtle (but no graph relationships)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://codepad.org/NH3S6CJi copies the subject relationships from the turtle (but no graph relationships)

15:50:04 <tbaker> Ivan: we have to be able to express somehow that we take the union of those four graphs and operate rules on the union of the four graphs.

Ivan Herman: we have to be able to express somehow that we take the union of those four graphs and operate rules on the union of the four graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Tom Baker ]

15:50:23 <pchampin_> ivan: from your example, I understand that we need a mechanism to merge the content of several graphs together

Ivan Herman: from your example, I understand that we need a mechanism to merge the content of several graphs together

15:50:42 <pchampin_> ... so that we can then do something with that union of graphs: like rules, RDFS, etc...

... so that we can then do something with that union of graphs: like rules, RDFS, etc...

15:51:17 <tbaker> Pat: If I understand FRBR, can see that there need to be links starting from item and going to more general... A chain from the item back up to the work.  What I don't see is any particular need for links going down the hierarchy.

Patrick Hayes: If I understand FRBR, can see that there need to be links starting from item and going to more general... A chain from the item back up to the work. What I don't see is any particular need for links going down the hierarchy. [ Scribe Assist by Tom Baker ]

15:52:24 <gavinc> PatH, realization, realizationOf http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html#realization

Gavin Carothers: PatH, realization, realizationOf http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html#realization

15:53:36 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:53:40 <pchampin_> tbaker: one would want to be able to follow the relations in both directions

Tom Baker: one would want to be able to follow the relations in both directions

15:53:40 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

15:54:04 <Zakim> +Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud

15:54:13 <gavinc> PatH, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_Requirements_for_Bibliographic_Records

Gavin Carothers: PatH, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_Requirements_for_Bibliographic_Records

15:54:29 <danbri_> folks, sorry I can't join the call. I wrote a giant something on FRBR a year ago; http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2011Mar/0129.html ... short version: FRBR is about describing mass-produced entities, and the link to our notion of 'class' needs examining.

Dan Brickley: folks, sorry I can't join the call. I wrote a giant something on FRBR a year ago; http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2011Mar/0129.html ... short version: FRBR is about describing mass-produced entities, and the link to our notion of 'class' needs examining.

15:54:43 <pchampin_> pat: why not using class-instance relation in the FRBR hierarchy instead of specific relations?

Patrick Hayes: why not using class-instance relation in the FRBR hierarchy instead of specific relations?

15:54:49 <davidwood> Thanks, danbri

David Wood: Thanks, danbri

15:54:58 <pchampin_> ... e.g. Items are instances of the corresponding Expression

... e.g. Items are instances of the corresponding Manifestation

15:55:11 <ericP> -> http://codepad.org/W2zZZhIZ with some N3 handle inference

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://codepad.org/W2zZZhIZ with some N3 handle inference

15:55:18 <gavinc> +1 danbri

Gavin Carothers: +1 danbri

15:55:53 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

15:56:00 <davidwood> ack MacTed

David Wood: ack MacTed

15:56:00 <Zakim> MacTed, you wanted to say inference is commonplace for e.g., subclassOf

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, you wanted to say inference is commonplace for e.g., subclassOf

15:56:25 <tbaker> +1 danbri's post on public-lld

Tom Baker: +1 danbri's post on public-lld

15:57:00 <pchampin_> macted: the fact that FRBR does not model it as class-instance does not prevent one's specific ontology to add that relation and use it for inference

Ted Thibodeau: the fact that FRBR does not model it as class-instance does not prevent one's specific ontology to add that relation and use it for inference

15:57:26 <pchampin_> s/corresponding Expression/corresponding Manifestation/
15:57:55 <pchampin_> tbaker: there has been counter-proposals to the 4 distinct levels

Tom Baker: there has been counter-proposals to the 4 distinct levels

15:58:00 <PatH> +1 also danbri which even has a T-shirt design http://www.flickr.com/photos/danbri/2891150205/

Patrick Hayes: +1 also danbri which even has a T-shirt design http://www.flickr.com/photos/danbri/2891150205/

15:58:05 <pchampin_> ... someone made a proposal with only 3 levels

... someone made a proposal with only 3 levels

15:58:18 <pchampin_> ... music catalogs have a different classification

... music catalogs have a different classification

15:58:46 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:58:56 <danbri> (tshirt example ... that's as close as I've come to finding a role for OWL in my life :)

Dan Brickley: (tshirt example ... that's as close as I've come to finding a role for OWL in my life :)

15:59:02 <tbaker> q+ to ask about next steps

Tom Baker: q+ to ask about next steps

15:59:36 <pchampin_> macted: what about containers?

Ted Thibodeau: what about containers?

15:59:54 <pchampin_> tbaker: this is another big discussion

Tom Baker: this is another big discussion

16:00:04 <davidwood> ack tbaker

David Wood: ack tbaker

16:00:04 <Zakim> tbaker, you wanted to ask about next steps

Zakim IRC Bot: tbaker, you wanted to ask about next steps

16:00:25 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

16:01:20 <pchampin_> david: I propose to put tom's use cases in our short list

David Wood: I propose to put tom's use cases in our short list

16:02:01 <sandro> Pat: What Tom seems to need is the ability to get at graphs, at bits of graphs, and do reasoning with those bits of graphs        [ scribe attempt ]

Patrick Hayes: What Tom seems to need is the ability to get at graphs, at bits of graphs, and do reasoning with those bits of graphs [ scribe attempt ] [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:02:26 <davidwood> …also to attach metadata to graphs

David Wood: …also to attach metadata to graphs

16:02:43 <PatH> Toms use case needs named graphs to support provenance information, metadata, and inference access to the contents of the named graphs, all combined in application-specific ways.

Patrick Hayes: Toms use case needs named graphs to support provenance information, metadata, and inference access to the contents of the named graphs, all combined in application-specific ways.

16:03:40 <ericP> <http://codepad.org/j8fMAGlg> uses graphs to perform inferences performed by ?p ?o in <http://codepad.org/W2zZZhIZ>

Eric Prud'hommeaux: <http://codepad.org/j8fMAGlg> uses graphs to perform inferences performed by ?p ?o in <http://codepad.org/W2zZZhIZ>

16:03:43 <tbaker> q+ to suggest putting it in wiki with Eric's example

Tom Baker: q+ to suggest putting it in wiki with Eric's example

16:04:04 <pchampin_> sandro: sounds very general, difficult to say if it is addressed or not

Sandro Hawke: sounds very general, difficult to say if it is addressed or not

16:04:14 <pchampin_> pat: this is more of an aggregate use case

Patrick Hayes: this is more of an aggregate use case

16:04:17 <davidwood> ack tbaker

David Wood: ack tbaker

16:04:17 <Zakim> tbaker, you wanted to suggest putting it in wiki with Eric's example

Zakim IRC Bot: tbaker, you wanted to suggest putting it in wiki with Eric's example

16:06:06 <pchampin_> david: could Tom and Eric formulate these use cases on the wiki?

David Wood: could Tom and Eric formulate these use cases on the wiki?

16:06:40 <tbaker> q+ to quickly respond to Pat

Tom Baker: q+ to quickly respond to Pat

16:06:49 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:06:53 <ivan> ack tbaker

Ivan Herman: ack tbaker

16:06:53 <Zakim> tbaker, you wanted to quickly respond to Pat

Zakim IRC Bot: tbaker, you wanted to quickly respond to Pat

16:07:05 <gavinc> There is AN ontology http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html which may be horribly wrong

Gavin Carothers: There is AN ontology http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html which may be horribly wrong

16:07:25 <davidwood> ACTION: EricP to work with Tom Baker to add the FRBR use case to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs

ACTION: EricP to work with Tom Baker to add the FRBR use case to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs

16:07:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-162 - Work with Tom Baker to add the FRBR use case to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs  [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-04-18].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-162 - Work with Tom Baker to add the FRBR use case to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-04-18].

16:07:45 <pchampin_> pat: my concern is: should we focus first on RDF or on the ontology? but let's go on RDF

Patrick Hayes: my concern is: should we focus first on RDF or on the ontology? but let's go on RDF

16:09:02 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:09:02 <pchampin_> tbaker: focusing on the RDF and named graphs will help keep the core of the ontology simple [scribe hopse he got it right]

Tom Baker: focusing on the RDF and named graphs will help keep the core of the ontology simple [scribe hopse he got it right]

16:09:08 <davidwood> ack ivan

David Wood: ack ivan

16:09:33 <PatH> This may be a first, discussing ontology standards while emptying a cat litter tray.

Patrick Hayes: This may be a first, discussing ontology standards while emptying a cat litter tray.

16:09:33 <pchampin_> ivan: I don't feel that we are so far off to address Tom's use cases

Ivan Herman: I don't feel that we are so far off to address Tom's use cases

16:10:12 <PatH> +1 to ivan on union issue.

Patrick Hayes: +1 to ivan on union issue.

16:10:20 <gavinc> Need to be able to construct unions too!

Gavin Carothers: Need to be able to construct unions too!

16:10:32 <PatH> i feel jubilant.

Patrick Hayes: i feel jubilant.

16:10:48 <tbaker> I feel jubiliant that Pat feels jubilant

Tom Baker: I feel jubiliant that Pat feels jubilant

16:10:48 <pchampin_> ... if we agree that the default graph of a dataset would always be the union of all the named graph, then we might have what Tom needs

... if we agree that the default graph of a dataset would always be the union of all the named graph, then we might have what Tom needs

16:11:36 <sandro> q

Sandro Hawke: q

16:11:38 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

16:12:08 <AndyS> Maybe it is not feature of the TriG exchanged, but is done with the named graph once received.

Andy Seaborne: Maybe it is not feature of the TriG exchanged, but is done with the named graph once received.

16:12:11 <pchampin_> ... there should be no semantic problem; it's the syntactical details that need to be worked out

... there should be no semantic problem; it's the syntactical details that need to be worked out

16:12:20 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs_FRBR persuant to ACTION-162

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs_FRBR persuant to ACTION-162

16:12:51 <AndyS> Maybe it is not feature of the TriG exchanged, but is about what is done with the collection of named graphs once received. -- requirement no dft graph in this case.

Andy Seaborne: Maybe it is not feature of the TriG exchanged, but is about what is done with the collection of named graphs once received. -- requirement no dft graph in this case.

16:12:54 <tbaker> david: Proposal already addresses metadata on graphs (Ivan's formalization of Sandro's as tweaked by Pat).  The deltas are in relation to where we want to draw the line on inference.

David Wood: Proposal already addresses metadata on graphs (Ivan's formalization of Sandro's as tweaked by Pat). The deltas are in relation to where we want to draw the line on inference. [ Scribe Assist by Tom Baker ]

16:13:01 <PatH> we never say X is always Y if we can give users an easy way to say this particular  X is a Y

Patrick Hayes: we never say X is always Y if we can give users an easy way to say this particular X is a Y

16:13:25 <pchampin_> david: the remaining question would then be: where do we draw the line for inference, right?

David Wood: the remaining question would then be: where do we draw the line for inference, right?

16:13:30 <tbaker> Ivan: We draw the line on inference.  Ontology-based inference based on FRBR is out there, we should not touch, but in my proposal, inferencing done only on the default graph.

Ivan Herman: We draw the line on inference. Ontology-based inference based on FRBR is out there, we should not touch, but in my proposal, inferencing done only on the default graph. [ Scribe Assist by Tom Baker ]

16:14:01 <tbaker> ... This is not the way tom wants to use them.  Rather: take the union and do inference on that.  Additional trick needed.

Tom Baker: ... This is not the way tom wants to use them. Rather: take the union and do inference on that. Additional trick needed.

16:14:01 <pchampin_> ... with a mechanism to "quote" some of the graphs (i.e. keep them out of inference)

... with a mechanism to "quote" some of the graphs (i.e. keep them out of inference)

16:14:24 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

16:14:25 <tbaker> david: In order to facilitate that inferencing, Tom's proposal may be missing a layer.

David Wood: In order to facilitate that inferencing, Tom's proposal may be missing a layer. [ Scribe Assist by Tom Baker ]

16:14:30 <sandro> sandro: How about we have Merge-Default-Graph-Datasets and Explicit-Default-Graph-Datasets, and use Trig {} to serialize the difference?

Sandro Hawke: How about we have Merge-Default-Graph-Datasets and Explicit-Default-Graph-Datasets, and use Trig {} to serialize the difference? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:14:43 <pchampin_> david: it seems to me that Tom's proposal is missing a layer, though

David Wood: it seems to me that Tom's proposal is missing a layer, though

16:15:09 <davidwood> Does the inferencing requirement suggest the need for a graph that holds named graphs (single-level nesting)?

David Wood: Does the inferencing requirement suggest the need for a graph that holds named graphs (single-level nesting)?

16:15:10 <tbaker> Sandro: As Ivan puts it: in SPARQL world, two types of datasets.  Never been explicit about ... .

Sandro Hawke: As Ivan puts it: in SPARQL world, two types of datasets. Never been explicit about ... . [ Scribe Assist by Tom Baker ]

16:15:14 <PatH> I have to go very soon.

Patrick Hayes: I have to go very soon.

16:15:25 <pchampin_> sandro: in the SPARQL world, there has always been two kinds of dataset

Sandro Hawke: in the SPARQL world, there has always been two kinds of dataset

16:15:27 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

16:15:35 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

16:15:50 <pchampin_> ... need a way to make this explicit in Trig

... need a way to make this explicit in Trig

16:16:10 <PatH> I got to go, sorry.

Patrick Hayes: I got to go, sorry.

16:16:17 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

16:16:18 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

16:16:36 <tbaker> Thank you all for the great input - looking forward to follow-up!

Tom Baker: Thank you all for the great input - looking forward to follow-up!

16:16:54 <davidwood> Thanks, tbaker!

David Wood: Thanks, tbaker!

16:16:56 <AndyS> Thanks Tom.

Andy Seaborne: Thanks Tom.

16:17:46 <davidwood> adjourned

David Wood: adjourned

16:20:04 <ericP> tbaker, take a peek at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs_FRBR> ?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: tbaker, take a peek at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs_FRBR> ?

16:20:59 <Zakim> -swh

Zakim IRC Bot: -swh

16:21:15 <tbaker> ok - do we want to fold in some of the text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2012Apr/0001.html

Tom Baker: ok - do we want to fold in some of the text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2012Apr/0001.html

16:24:55 <Zakim> -Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus

16:25:17 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:25:20 <ericP> tbaker, yeah, i linked to it as a placeholder. it should absolutely recapitulate everything that folks need to swap in the decisions parameters

Eric Prud'hommeaux: tbaker, yeah, i linked to it as a placeholder. it should absolutely recapitulate everything that folks need to swap in the decisions parameters

16:25:55 <davidwood> pchampin, please see the directions at the top of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes

David Wood: pchampin, please see the directions at the top of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes



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This revision (#1) generated 2012-04-11 16:37:08 UTC by 'pchampin', comments: None