RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 15 February 2012

Seen
Alex Hall, Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, Dan Brickley, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Richard Cyganiak, Scott Bauer, Ted Thibodeau, Yves Raimond
Scribe
Scott Bauer
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. last weeks minutes accepted link
Topics
15:58:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/15-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/15-rdf-wg-irc

15:58:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

15:59:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

15:59:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

15:59:01 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:59:01 <trackbot> Date: 15 February 2012
15:59:45 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?

Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:59:45 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS

15:59:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood, manu, trackbot, sandro,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood, manu, trackbot, sandro,

15:59:46 <Zakim> ... ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... ericP

15:59:52 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me

Gavin Carothers: Zakim, mute me

15:59:52 <Zakim> sorry, gavinc, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, gavinc, I don't know what conference this is

16:00:01 <gavinc> Zakim, this is SW_RDFWG

Gavin Carothers: Zakim, this is SW_RDFWG

16:00:01 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

16:00:03 <AndyS> zakim, this is 73394

Andy Seaborne: zakim, this is 73394

16:00:03 <Zakim> AndyS, this was already SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, this was already SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

16:00:05 <Zakim> ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

16:00:12 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?

Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:00:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Guus, [IPcaller], gavinc, ScottB

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P3, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Guus, [IPcaller], gavinc, ScottB

16:00:17 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P3 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P3 is me

16:00:17 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

16:00:18 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

16:00:23 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me

Gavin Carothers: Zakim, mute me

16:00:23 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should now be muted

16:00:24 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

16:00:38 <Zakim> +mhausenblas

Zakim IRC Bot: +mhausenblas

16:00:39 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me

16:00:39 <Zakim> +cygri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it

16:00:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

16:00:51 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:00:52 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me

16:00:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Guus, gavinc (muted), ScottB, PatH, cygri, [IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Guus, gavinc (muted), ScottB, PatH, cygri, [IPcaller]

16:00:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood, manu, trackbot,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood, manu, trackbot,

16:00:52 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro, ericP

16:00:55 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

16:00:56 <Zakim> +David_Wood

Zakim IRC Bot: +David_Wood

16:01:20 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

16:01:29 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.996.aaaa

16:01:44 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

16:01:44 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

16:01:45 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

16:01:56 <Arnaud> Zakim, *aaaa is me

Arnaud Le Hors: Zakim, *aaaa is me

16:01:56 <Zakim> sorry, Arnaud, I do not recognize a party named '*aaaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Arnaud, I do not recognize a party named '*aaaa'

16:02:03 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb

16:02:12 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me

Alex Hall: zakim, aabb is me

16:02:12 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it

16:02:19 <Arnaud> zakim, aaaa is me

Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, aaaa is me

16:02:19 <Zakim> +Arnaud; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud; got it

16:02:37 <AZ> \me zakim, ??P14 is me

Antoine Zimmermann: \me zakim, ??P14 is me

16:03:18 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

16:03:19 <ScottB> Scribe: ScottB

(Scribe set to Scott Bauer)

16:03:44 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 Feb telecon:

David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 Feb telecon:

16:03:44 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08

16:03:52 <ScottB> Topic:  Meetings from minutes  last week

1. Meetings from minutes last week

16:04:25 <ScottB> David:  closing issue or action 166 which doesn't exist

David Wood: closing issue or ACTION-166 which doesn't exist

16:04:56 <ScottB> … this is issue 66

… this is ISSUE-66

16:05:21 <ScottB> … this issue is updated

… this issue is updated

16:06:29 <Arnaud> this was an interesting statement "I see you on the phone but I don't hear you" :)

Arnaud Le Hors: this was an interesting statement "I see you on the phone but I don't hear you" :)

16:06:46 <ScottB> … will have to forgo accepting these minutes till later

… will have to forgo accepting these minutes till later

16:06:58 <davidwood> We will wait on the minutes of 8 Feb until they are cleaned up.

David Wood: We will wait on the minutes of 8 Feb until they are cleaned up.

16:07:07 <davidwood> Action item review:

David Wood: Action item review:

16:07:07 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - item

16:07:07 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

16:07:07 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

16:07:15 <ScottB> Topic: Action item review

2. Action item review

16:07:45 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs#TriG.2Fstate

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs#TriG.2Fstate

16:07:59 <ScottB> David:  Action-145  merge page with Sandros.  believe this is complete

David Wood: ACTION-145 merge page with Sandros. believe this is complete

16:08:09 <davidwood> close Action-145

David Wood: close ACTION-145

16:08:09 <trackbot> ACTION-145 Merge his page with Sandro's closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-145 Merge his page with Sandro's closed

16:08:12 <Zakim> -Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus

16:08:32 <ScottB> Alex:  back to action 166 could be 136

Alex Hall: back to ACTION-166 could be 136

16:08:41 <ScottB> … closed last week.

… closed last week.

16:08:54 <Zakim> +Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus

16:09:18 <ScottB> David:  Eric will you edit the minutes to reflect this.

David Wood: Eric will you edit the minutes to reflect this.

16:09:34 <ScottB> Eric:  I'll try to do this

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I'll try to do this

16:10:06 <AlexHall> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Chatlog_2012-02-08

Alex Hall: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Chatlog_2012-02-08

16:11:14 <ScottB> David:  open actions that are past due.

David Wood: open actions that are past due.

16:11:26 <ScottB> … quite a few are overdue.

… quite a few are overdue.

16:12:33 <Zakim> +danbri

Zakim IRC Bot: +danbri

16:13:15 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08 now reflects the s/166/136/ change

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08 now reflects the s/166/136/ change

16:13:16 <davidwood> close Action-137

David Wood: close ACTION-137

16:13:16 <trackbot> ACTION-137 Write down an example of the syntaxes for the named graphs closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-137 Write down an example of the syntaxes for the named graphs closed

16:13:27 <ScottB> Scott is leaving the actions unscibed hoping thats the right thing to do.

Scott is leaving the actions unscibed hoping thats the right thing to do.

16:14:46 <davidwood> close Action-142

David Wood: close ACTION-142

16:14:46 <trackbot> ACTION-142 Repsond to multiline comments comment of Danny Ayres closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-142 Repsond to multiline comments comment of Danny Ayres closed

16:16:35 <ScottB> David:  there is an agenda item for  action 143

David Wood: there is an agenda item for ACTION-143

16:16:49 <davidwood> close Action-143

David Wood: close ACTION-143

16:16:49 <trackbot> ACTION-143 Propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* unescaped while parsing Turtle closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-143 Propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* unescaped while parsing Turtle closed

16:17:14 <ericP> [[

Eric Prud'hommeaux: [[

16:17:15 <ericP> The <PERCENT> terminal matches %-encoding sequences. These sequences are not decoded during processing; a term written as <http://a.example/%66oo\-bar> in Turtle designates the RDF IRI http://a.example/%66oo-bar.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: The <PERCENT> terminal matches %-encoding sequences. These sequences are not decoded during processing; a term written as <http://a.example/%66oo\-bar> in Turtle designates the RDF IRI http://a.example/%66oo-bar.

16:17:20 <ericP> ]]

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ]]

16:17:44 <cygri> i think my ACTION-138 and ACTION-117 can also be closed

Richard Cyganiak: i think my ACTION-138 and ACTION-117 can also be closed

16:18:35 <gavinc> ericP, change from http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf to https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf

Gavin Carothers: ericP, change from http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf to https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf

16:18:37 <davidwood> close Action-117

David Wood: close ACTION-117

16:18:37 <trackbot> ACTION-117 Check status of duration datatypes closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-117 Check status of duration datatypes closed

16:18:56 <davidwood> Action-138

David Wood: ACTION-138

16:19:03 <davidwood> close Action-138

David Wood: close ACTION-138

16:19:03 <trackbot> ACTION-138 Ask the group whether it needs to do anything about http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/ closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-138 Ask the group whether it needs to do anything about http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/ closed

16:19:26 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 Feb telecon:

David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 Feb telecon:

16:19:26 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08

16:19:27 <ScottB> David:  back to the minutes

David Wood: back to the minutes

16:19:44 <ScottB> RESOLVED:  last weeks minutes accepted

RESOLVED: last weeks minutes accepted

16:20:21 <ScottB> Topic:  Turtle

3. Turtle

16:21:27 <ScottB> Eric:  the copy paste is just one issue.  treat the as an opaque string.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: the copy paste is just one issue. treat the as an opaque string.

16:21:36 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/rdf/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/rdf/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings

16:22:03 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings

Gavin Carothers: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings

16:23:14 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

16:23:18 <ScottB> … the other issue turtle strings and iri can use escape sequences.  two types:  one in the table listed and let char through otherwise thought of as punctuation.

… the other issue turtle strings and iri can use escape sequences. two types: one in the table listed and let char through otherwise thought of as punctuation.

16:23:19 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

16:23:19 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

16:23:20 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:23:20 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:23:25 <AndyS> We are going to remove \t etc from IRIs (I hope!).  ie. strings, IRI and prefixed name have different scape rules in the detail.

Andy Seaborne: We are going to remove \t etc from IRIs (I hope!). ie. strings, IRI and prefixed name have different scape rules in the detail.

16:23:32 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

16:23:41 <ScottB> … clarifies that there is two types of escaping.

… clarifies that there is two types of escaping.

16:23:45 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

16:23:47 <gavinc> Zakim, unmute me

Gavin Carothers: Zakim, unmute me

16:23:47 <Zakim> gavinc should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should no longer be muted

16:24:13 <ScottB> Andy: suggest we take tab reline and double quote out of iris

Andy Seaborne: suggest we take tab reline and double quote out of iris

16:24:49 <PatH> do we have authority over iri syntax?

Patrick Hayes: do we have authority over iri syntax?

16:25:01 <ScottB> … three kinds of escapes.  code points, white space and double quotes.

… three kinds of escapes. code points, white space and double quotes.

16:25:19 <ScottB> Gavin:  the backslash quote is only in some string productions.

Gavin Carothers: the backslash quote is only in some string productions.

16:25:36 <ScottB> Andy:  It's clear which bits are which elements.

Andy Seaborne: It's clear which bits are which elements.

16:26:00 <ScottB> Gavin:  match the grammer

Gavin Carothers: match the grammer

16:26:14 <ScottB> Eric:  this text is out of sync.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: this text is out of sync.

16:26:42 <ScottB> Action:  Eric to propose by next week text that replaces section 4.3

ACTION: Eric to propose by next week text that replaces section 4.3

16:26:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-147 - Propose by next week text that replaces section 4.3 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-22].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-147 - Propose by next week text that replaces section 4.3 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-22].

16:26:47 <PatH> grammars rule.

Patrick Hayes: grammars rule.

16:28:17 <ericP> <http://a.example/%66oo\-bar> in Turtle designates the RDF IRI http://a.example/%66oo-bar

Eric Prud'hommeaux: <http://a.example/%66oo\-bar> in Turtle designates the RDF IRI http://a.example/%66oo-bar

16:28:23 <ScottB> Eric:   wrote an example

Eric Prud'hommeaux: wrote an example

16:28:57 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:29:09 <ScottB> … will pick one approach and propose it.

… will pick one approach and propose it.

16:29:21 <ScottB> Topic: Named Graphs

4. Named Graphs

16:29:53 <Guus> q+

Guus Schreiber: q+

16:29:53 <ScottB> David:  I'd like a brief discussion on how to use the next 45 minutes.

David Wood: I'd like a brief discussion on how to use the next 45 minutes.

16:30:05 <davidwood> ack Guus

David Wood: ack Guus

16:30:40 <ScottB> Guus:  Discuss the solution design page started by Sandro and go over Pat's email.

Guus Schreiber: Discuss the solution design page started by Sandro and go over Pat's email.

16:30:57 <ScottB> Andy:  I'd like to hear what everyone's thinking.

Andy Seaborne: I'd like to hear what everyone's thinking.

16:31:03 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

16:31:58 <ScottB> David: I think we have a lot of different use cases.  Not clear what the field of perspectives are.  Slow progress in understanding perspectives.

David Wood: I think we have a lot of different use cases. Not clear what the field of perspectives are. Slow progress in understanding perspectives.

16:32:16 <ScottB> …  I have some hope that Pat's proposal will move us forward.

… I have some hope that Pat's proposal will move us forward.

16:32:52 <Guus> +1000

Guus Schreiber: +1000

16:32:56 <ScottB> Pat:  We shouldn't have expected this would have been fixed quickly.

Patrick Hayes: We shouldn't have expected this would have been fixed quickly.

16:33:12 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?

Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:33:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, gavinc, ScottB, PatH, cygri, AndyS, David_Wood, AZ, Arnaud (muted), Ivan, AlexHall, EricP, Guus, danbri, MacTed (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, gavinc, ScottB, PatH, cygri, AndyS, David_Wood, AZ, Arnaud (muted), Ivan, AlexHall, EricP, Guus, danbri, MacTed (muted)

16:33:26 <ScottB> Richard: I would be ok with the minimalist proposal.

Richard Cyganiak: I would be ok with the minimalist proposal.

16:33:51 <ScottB> … look at how the proposals will work with deployed practice.

… look at how the proposals will work with deployed practice.

16:34:39 <pfps> +1 to Richard's minimalism, but I will to see a painting before I am sure

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to Richard's minimalism, but I will to see a painting before I am sure

16:35:10 <ScottB> David:  Two things inviolate, not chartered to break rdf.   Does us no good to listen and change considerations.

David Wood: Two things inviolate, not chartered to break rdf. Does us no good to listen and not change considerations.

16:35:38 <davidwood> s/change/not change/
16:36:17 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:36:17 <ScottB> Pat:  I agree about making minimal changes to current deployment.  A radical change in the semantics  can be changed to match current usage.

Patrick Hayes: I agree about making minimal changes to current deployment. A radical change in the semantics can be changed to match current usage.

16:36:39 <MacTed> +s/can be changed to match/can be made to match/

Ted Thibodeau: +s/can be made to match/can be made to match/

16:36:43 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

16:36:48 <MacTed> s/can be changed to match/can be made to match/
16:36:54 <pfps> I would argue that there has not been a change away from the current semantics!

Peter Patel-Schneider: I would argue that there has not been a change away from the current semantics!

16:37:24 <ScottB> Richard:  I've given up on not say anything at all in the semantics about named graphs.

Richard Cyganiak: I've given up on not say anything at all in the semantics about named graphs.

16:38:17 <ScottB> … I still think it's important to keep in mind the actual uses when talking semantics.

… I still think it's important to keep in mind the actual users when talking semantics.

16:38:43 <PatH> keep in mind actual users when thinking about semantics. I agree.

Patrick Hayes: keep in mind actual users when thinking about semantics. I agree.

16:39:02 <ScottB> s/uses/users
16:40:31 <AZ> +1 pfps

Antoine Zimmermann: +1 pfps

16:40:35 <ScottB> Peter:  current semantics is atemporal.  It's not concerned with time.  It's fine to use RDF as it is today.

Peter Patel-Schneider: current semantics is atemporal. It's not concerned with time. It's fine to use RDF as it is today.

16:40:45 <gavinc> +1 pfps

Gavin Carothers: +1 pfps

16:41:00 <ScottB> … all it says is that its a graph

… all it says is that its a graph

16:41:30 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:41:50 <ScottB> Pat:  Using graphs to record data true at two different times and change the graph.

Patrick Hayes: Using graphs to record data true at two different times and change the graph.

16:42:25 <ScottB> Peter:  Should be able to do what ever is desired and step outside the semantics.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Should be able to do what ever is desired and step outside the semantics.

16:42:32 <ericP> sounds like this small theory fails to meet cygri's litmus of informing implementations

Eric Prud'hommeaux: sounds like this small theory fails to meet cygri's litmus of informing implementations

16:42:49 <ericP> at least, not as much as we may want to inform (/standardize) them

Eric Prud'hommeaux: at least, not as much as we may want to inform (/standardize) them

16:43:17 <ScottB> Pat:  if you record daily changes in the graph.  The assertion of a the same triple with a different label breaks the semantics.

Patrick Hayes: if you record daily changes in the graph. The assertion of a the same triple with a different label breaks the semantics.

16:43:19 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

16:43:20 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

16:43:21 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

16:43:23 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

16:43:38 <ScottB> Peter: I don't see this as a violation.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I don't see this as a violation.

16:43:39 <cygri> q?

Richard Cyganiak: q?

16:44:10 <ericP> peter: the semantics doesn't say anywhere that there should be one graph to bind them

Peter Patel-Schneider: the semantics doesn't say anywhere that there should be one graph to bind them [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ]

16:44:12 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

16:44:20 <ScottB> David:  Let's have this conversation off the call.

David Wood: Let's have this conversation off the call.

16:45:05 <ScottB> Richard:  Pat says what you say about changes to graphs is how people use this.

Richard Cyganiak: Pat says what you say about changes to graphs is how people use this.

16:45:38 <ScottB> … It's his position is that semantics break when this happens.

… It's his position is that semantics break when this happens.

16:46:05 <ScottB> … like Peter I can't see the problem in the semantics.

… like Peter I can't see the problem in the semantics.

16:46:32 <ericP> q+ to say that what the current semantics cover may be a non-issue if we have a shared goal of what the semantics *should* cover

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to say that what the current semantics cover may be a non-issue if we have a shared goal of what the semantics *should* cover

16:46:59 <ScottB> Pat: It depends on what you think semantics should be doing.

Patrick Hayes: It depends on what you think semantics should be doing.

16:47:42 <ScottB> … semantics should be about how ref graphs convey meaning.

… semantics should be about how ref graphs convey meaning.

16:47:43 <AndyS> q-

Andy Seaborne: q-

16:47:55 <ericP> +1 to "make it valid to merge two graphs"

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to "make it valid to merge two graphs"

16:48:24 <ScottB> … If graphs are sanctioned by the sematics to be temporal they can't be freely merged.

… If graphs are sanctioned by the sematics to be temporal they can't be freely merged.

16:48:45 <pfps> I don't see anything in RDF that says when it is acceptable to merge graphs - all that is there is what it means to merge graphs.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I don't see anything in RDF that says when it is acceptable to merge graphs - all that is there is what it means to merge graphs.

16:48:47 <ScottB> @Pat, please edit my scribe as necessary.

@Pat, please edit my scribe as necessary.

16:49:24 <ScottB> Pat:  Every graph should find it's own interpretation

Patrick Hayes: Every graph should find it's own interpretation

16:49:45 <ScottB> Andy:  Keep the URI's denoting the same thing, it's just the triples.

Andy Seaborne: Keep the URI's denoting the same thing, it's just the triples.

16:49:51 <Guus> Peter: as I right to say your view is: if you merge two graphs you're on your own

Peter Patel-Schneider: as I right to say your view is: if you merge two graphs you're on your own [ Scribe Assist by Guus Schreiber ]

16:49:52 <pfps> If you took the stance that RDF says that it is always acceptable to merge graphs, then you would be sort of requiring that the Semantic Web was globally coherent.  (I would have said consistent, but that's not quite right here.)

Peter Patel-Schneider: If you took the stance that RDF says that it is always acceptable to merge graphs, then you would be sort of requiring that the Semantic Web was globally coherent. (I would have said consistent, but that's not quite right here.)

16:50:36 <pfps> My view is that if you combine information from different parts of the Semantic Web, then it is up to you to be sure that they are compatible.

Peter Patel-Schneider: My view is that if you combine information from different parts of the Semantic Web, then it is up to you to be sure that they are compatible.

16:50:37 <davidwood> pfps, isn't that a persistent misunderstanding of the Semantic Web by its detractors?

David Wood: pfps, isn't that a persistent misunderstanding of the Semantic Web by its detractors?

16:50:48 <AndyS> +1 to pfps

Andy Seaborne: +1 to pfps

16:50:50 <ScottB> Pat:   if there is a true functional semantics then it means what it means.  If a triple means one thing one place and one thing in another, then it needs to be reflected in the semantics.

Patrick Hayes: if there is a true functional semantics then it means what it means. If a triple means one thing one place and one thing in another, then it needs to be reflected in the semantics.

16:51:09 <ScottB> Andy:  It's just the true falseness.

Andy Seaborne: It's just the true falseness.

16:51:30 <AndyS> ack me - thanks Pat

Andy Seaborne: ack me - thanks Pat

16:51:34 <davidwood> ack MacTed

David Wood: ack MacTed

16:51:37 <Guus> I can libe with Peter's view, in the light of the charter

Guus Schreiber: I can libe with Peter's view, in the light of the charter

16:52:04 <pfps> I think that my fundamental philosophical basis is that information in the Semantic Web is not necessarily "true", and that thus you have to be careful committing to bits of it.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I think that my fundamental philosophical basis is that information in the Semantic Web is not necessarily "true", and that thus you have to be careful committing to bits of it.

16:52:04 <ScottB> Ted:  People may be using rdf to store information that's not rdf as defined.

Ted Thibodeau: People may be using rdf to store information that's not rdf as defined.

16:52:12 <davidwood> Yes, I can live with pfps's view

David Wood: Yes, I can live with pfps's view

16:52:49 <ScottB> … we can't treat anything as if is the same for all time.

… we can't treat anything as if is the same for all time.

16:53:04 <davidwood> ack ericP

David Wood: ack ericP

16:53:04 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that what the current semantics cover may be a non-issue if we have a shared goal of what the semantics *should* cover

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to say that what the current semantics cover may be a non-issue if we have a shared goal of what the semantics *should* cover

16:53:35 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

16:53:53 <pfps> Unfortunately, it appears that some of disagreement is about "intended" meaning, which, in my opinion, necessarily brings in the less-well-understood parts of philosophy.  :-(

Peter Patel-Schneider: Unfortunately, it appears that some of disagreement is about "intended" meaning, which, in my opinion, necessarily brings in the less-well-understood parts of philosophy. :-(

16:54:00 <ScottB> Eric:  What do we hope to accomplish, to confidently merge documents?  I propose we let Pat describe his proposal.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: What do we hope to accomplish, to confidently merge documents? I propose we let Pat describe his proposal.

16:54:29 <ScottB> … then we decide if we want to push things that far and discover use cases from that.

… then we decide if we want to push things that far and discover use cases from that.

16:56:05 <ScottB> Pat:  I agree with David that we don't take things on faith.  (Regarding rdf statements)  Thats a separate issue from what I'm trying to describe.

Patrick Hayes: I agree with David that we don't take things on faith. (Regarding rdf statements) Thats a separate issue from what I'm trying to describe.

16:56:22 <ScottB> … People are using rdf in a temporal way.

… People are using rdf in a temporal way.

16:57:00 <ScottB> … Trusting sources is just too big an issue

… Trusting sources is just too big an issue

16:57:37 <ScottB> … We can come up with a way that provides a semantic foundation for this application of rdf.

… We can come up with a way that provides a semantic foundation for this application of rdf.

16:57:38 <ericP> +1 to "useful formulation", via use cases

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to "useful formulation", via use cases

16:57:55 <davidwood> ack MacTed

David Wood: ack MacTed

16:57:58 <ScottB> David:  Trust is one of the more important use cases.

David Wood: Trust is one of the more important use cases.

16:58:24 <danbri> (I liked Pat's note, but there's perhaps slightly too much emphasis on time)

Dan Brickley: (I liked Pat's note, but there's perhaps slightly too much emphasis on time)

16:58:25 <ScottB> Ted:  Merging graphs forces rdf into authoritative true graph

Ted Thibodeau: Merging graphs forces rdf into authoritative true graph

16:58:41 <ScottB> Pat:  Semantics doesn't deal with trust.

Patrick Hayes: Semantics doesn't deal with trust.

16:59:11 <davidwood> I think that trust was high on the SemWeb layer cake for a good reason.  There was never a presumption in the early RDF community (to the best of my recollection) that anyone should implicitly trust all RDF statements, even when merging graphs.

David Wood: I think that trust was high on the SemWeb layer cake for a good reason. There was never a presumption in the early RDF community (to the best of my recollection) that anyone should implicitly trust all RDF statements, even when merging graphs.

16:59:26 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:59:42 <danbri> I suggest using 'foaf:age' instead of apple colour

Dan Brickley: I suggest using 'foaf:age' instead of apple colour

16:59:53 <ScottB> Pat:  Do your three sources disagree with one another or are they describing a ripening apple.

Patrick Hayes: Do your three sources disagree with one another or are they describing a ripening apple.

17:00:07 <ScottB> … they describe a sequence.

… they describe a sequence.

17:00:18 <ScottB> … a fine semantic grain is needed.

… a fine semantic grain is needed.

17:00:42 <ScottB> Pat:  if the truth is contextual you can put a context on it.

Patrick Hayes: if the truth is contextual you can put a context on it.

17:01:15 <ScottB> David:  I think there is less contention now than earlier.

David Wood: I think there is less contention now than earlier.

17:01:16 <danbri> q+ to suggest 3 grounding scenarios: 1. 'age' of a person 2. file metadata: filesize 3. 'owner'. (better than Apple...)

Dan Brickley: q+ to suggest 3 grounding scenarios: 1. 'age' of a person 2. file metadata: filesize 3. 'owner'. (better than Apple...)

17:01:24 <ericP> i still think it would be useful to hear Pat discuss his proposal

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i still think it would be useful to hear Pat discuss his proposal

17:02:02 <davidwood> ack danbri

David Wood: ack danbri

17:02:44 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

17:02:48 <ScottB> Dan:  I suggest three examples,  person age, file size, owner

Dan Brickley: I suggest three examples, person age, file size, owner

17:03:24 <ScottB> Zakim, who is on IRC?

Zakim, who is on IRC?

17:03:29 <MacTed> to be clearer...  +1 to danbri's 3 examples

Ted Thibodeau: to be clearer... +1 to danbri's 3 examples

17:03:29 <Guus> www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs

Guus Schreiber: www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs

17:03:41 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest 3 grounding scenarios: 1. 'age' of a person 2. file metadata: filesize 3. 'owner'. (better than Apple...)

Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to suggest 3 grounding scenarios: 1. 'age' of a person 2. file metadata: filesize 3. 'owner'. (better than Apple...)

17:03:52 <ScottB> Guus:  Zakim, who is on the call

Guus Schreiber: Zakim, who is on the call

17:03:58 <danbri> (bye 'if we can't do these 3', i mean 'we should have a plausible story about describing humans, computer files, ownable things, ... such that we can suggest sensible rdf-based data patterns that address the reality of changing properties in these 3 areas)

Dan Brickley: (bye 'if we can't do these 3', i mean 'we should have a plausible story about describing humans, computer files, ownable things, ... such that we can suggest sensible rdf-based data patterns that address the reality of changing properties in these 3 areas)

17:04:28 <ScottB> Zakim, who is on the call

Zakim, who is on the call

17:04:30 <Zakim> +Arnaud.a

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud.a

17:04:35 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

17:04:43 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

17:05:26 <ScottB> Guus:  The name the graph and the meaning contained somewhere.  This works for the first two cases

Guus Schreiber: The name the graph and the meaning contained somewhere. This works for the first two cases

17:05:33 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ScottB.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, ScottB.

17:06:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', ScottB

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on the call', ScottB

17:06:32 <ScottB> … we could say this vocabulary is just convention and doesn't affect semantics.

… we could say this vocabulary is just convention and doesn't affect semantics.

17:06:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, gavinc, ScottB, PatH, cygri, AndyS, David_Wood, AZ, Ivan, AlexHall, EricP, Guus, danbri, MacTed, Arnaud.a

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, gavinc, ScottB, PatH, cygri, AndyS, David_Wood, AZ, Ivan, AlexHall, EricP, Guus, danbri, MacTed, Arnaud.a

17:07:17 <ScottB> … first question is what should we be doing and second how should we do this.

… first question is what should we be doing and second how should we do this.

17:07:36 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

17:07:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, Arnaud, Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AlexHall, Arnaud, Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood,

17:07:54 <ericP> +1 to working through specific examples in <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs>\

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to working through specific examples in <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs>\

17:07:56 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

17:07:57 <Zakim> ... manu, trackbot, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... manu, trackbot, sandro, ericP

17:08:45 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

17:08:51 <Zakim> +Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud

17:08:54 <ScottB> Guus:  Interpreted Pat's as not changing the data model but the semantics.

Guus Schreiber: Interpreted Pat's as not changing the data model but the semantics.

17:09:32 <ScottB> … Do we want a statement in the semantics describing what happens when we merge documents.

… Do we want a statement in the semantics describing what happens when we merge documents.



Formatted by CommonScribe


This revision (#1) generated 2012-02-15 17:31:13 UTC by 'sbauer2', comments: 'Corrected a name Arnaud.a to Arnuad so the name could be resolved to the list of participants.'