RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 14 December 2011

Present
Alex Hall, Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, Charles Greer, Dan Brickley, David Wood, Fabien Gandon, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Jeremy Carroll, Lee Feigenbaum, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Richard Cyganiak, Sandro Hawke, Scott Bauer, Souripriya Das, Steve Harris, Ted Thibodeau, Zhe Wu
Scribe
Andy Seaborne
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions

None.

Topics
<sandro> Present: AlexHall,AndySeaborne,AntoineZimmermann,ArnaudLeHors,CharlesGreer,DanBrickley,DavidWood,FabienGandon,GavinCarothers,GuusSchreiber,JeremyCarroll,LeeFeigenbaum,PatrickHayes,PeterPatel-Schneider,RichardCyganiak,SandroHawke,ScottBauer,SouripriyaDas,SteveHarris,TedThibodeau,ZheWu
15:55:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-rdf-wg-irc

15:55:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

15:55:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

15:55:24 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

15:55:25 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:55:25 <trackbot> Date: 14 December 2011
15:57:04 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

15:57:11 <Zakim> +Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus

15:58:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:58:38 <Zakim> -Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus

15:58:39 <Zakim> +Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus

15:58:52 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me

15:58:52 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:59:04 <Guus> [to Andy: I hope you can scribe, as I haven't seen Olivier for some time]

Guus Schreiber: [to Andy: I hope you can scribe, as I haven't seen Olivier for some time]

15:59:38 <Zakim> +sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +sandro

15:59:52 <Zakim> +charlesgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: +charlesgreer

16:00:31 <Zakim> +Arnaud_LeHors

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud_LeHors

16:00:50 <Zakim> +BobF

Zakim IRC Bot: +BobF

16:01:10 <CharlesGreer> zakim, CharlesGreer is me

Charles Greer: zakim, CharlesGreer is me

16:01:11 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, BobF is me

Scott Bauer: Zakim, BobF is me

16:01:16 <Zakim> sorry, CharlesGreer, I do not recognize a party named 'CharlesGreer'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, CharlesGreer, I do not recognize a party named 'CharlesGreer'

16:01:20 <Zakim> +LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF

16:01:22 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking?

16:01:24 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer; got it

16:01:32 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (36%), AndyS (59%)

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (36%), AndyS (59%)

16:01:38 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

16:01:40 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

16:01:46 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

16:01:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, sandro, charlesgreer, Arnaud_LeHors, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, sandro, charlesgreer, Arnaud_LeHors, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, OpenLink_Software

16:01:48 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:01:51 <AndyS> scribe: Andy

(Scribe set to Andy Seaborne)

16:01:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, CharlesGreer, Arnaud1, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, FabGandon, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, mischat, SteveH, AndyS, mdmdm, davidwood, danbri, manu1, trackbot, NickH, manu,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AZ, CharlesGreer, Arnaud1, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, FabGandon, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, mischat, SteveH, AndyS, mdmdm, davidwood, danbri, manu1, trackbot, NickH, manu,

16:01:59 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS
16:02:01 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro, ericP

16:02:02 <CharlesGreer> zakim, charlesgreer is me

Charles Greer: zakim, charlesgreer is me

16:02:05 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

16:02:09 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:02:13 <Zakim> +BernHyland

Zakim IRC Bot: +BernHyland

16:02:19 <Zakim> +cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri

16:02:21 <Zakim> +CharlesGreer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +CharlesGreer; got it

16:02:25 <davidwood> zakim, BernHyland is me

David Wood: zakim, BernHyland is me

16:02:31 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:02:48 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it

16:02:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, sandro, CharlesGreer, Arnaud_LeHors, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, MacTed (muted), davidwood, cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, sandro, CharlesGreer, Arnaud_LeHors, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, MacTed (muted), davidwood, cygri

16:03:15 <Zakim> + +33.1.41.41.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.1.41.41.aaaa

16:03:22 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider

16:03:27 <Zakim> +[Sophia]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[Sophia]

16:03:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see cygri, AZ, CharlesGreer, Arnaud1, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, FabGandon, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, mischat, SteveH, AndyS, mdmdm, davidwood, danbri, manu1, trackbot, NickH,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cygri, AZ, CharlesGreer, Arnaud1, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, FabGandon, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, mischat, SteveH, AndyS, mdmdm, davidwood, danbri, manu1, trackbot, NickH,

16:03:35 <AZ> zakim, +33.1.41.41.aaaa is me

Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, +33.1.41.41.aaaa is me

16:03:37 <CharlesGreer> zakim, CharlesGreer is me

Charles Greer: zakim, CharlesGreer is me

16:03:42 <Zakim> ... manu, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... manu, sandro, ericP

16:03:42 <FabGandon> Zakim, +33.1.41.41.aaaa is me

Fabien Gandon: Zakim, +33.1.41.41.aaaa is me

16:03:43 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

16:04:01 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:04:12 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

16:04:14 <Zakim> +CharlesGreer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +CharlesGreer; got it

16:04:18 <Zakim> sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named '+33.1.41.41.aaaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named '+33.1.41.41.aaaa'

16:04:20 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

16:04:20 <MacTed> Zakim, CharlesGreer is charlesgreer

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, CharlesGreer is charlesgreer

16:04:28 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:04:28 <FabGandon> Zakim, aaaa is me

Fabien Gandon: Zakim, aaaa is me

16:04:35 <Zakim> +gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc

16:04:36 <Zakim> +charlesgreer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +charlesgreer; got it

16:04:42 <Zakim> sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

16:04:53 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:04:56 <AndyS> Guus: welcome

Guus Schreiber: welcome

16:05:42 <FabGandon> zakim, who is on the phone?

Fabien Gandon: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:05:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, sandro, charlesgreer, Arnaud_LeHors, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, MacTed (muted), davidwood, cygri, AZ, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Sophia], gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, sandro, charlesgreer, Arnaud_LeHors, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, MacTed (muted), davidwood, cygri, AZ, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Sophia], gavinc

16:05:43 <pfps> minutes look OK to me

Peter Patel-Schneider: minutes look OK to me

16:05:55 <FabGandon> zakim, [Sophia] is me

Fabien Gandon: zakim, [Sophia] is me

16:05:55 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +FabGandon; got it

16:06:20 <AndyS> Accept minutes of telecon of 2011-11-30

Accept minutes of telecon of 2011-11-30

16:06:28 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb

16:06:38 <AndyS> Topic: review action items

1. review action items

16:06:51 <AndyS> (action 119 is done as well)

(ACTION-119 is done as well)

16:07:20 <AndyS> Actions for review - accepted and closed

Actions for review - accepted and closed

16:07:27 <AndyS> CLOSE action-122

CLOSE ACTION-122

16:07:28 <trackbot> ACTION-122 Add list of XSD types to Concepts (assuming no objection from PatH or pfps) closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-122 Add list of XSD types to Concepts (assuming no objection from PatH or pfps) closed

16:07:31 <AndyS> CLOSE action-123

CLOSE ACTION-123

16:07:31 <trackbot> ACTION-123 Summarize rdf:XMLLiteral options on the list closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-123 Summarize rdf:XMLLiteral options on the list closed

16:07:48 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

16:08:13 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

16:08:47 <Zakim> +??P39

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P39

16:09:00 <swh> Zakim, ??P39 is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P39 is me

16:09:00 <Zakim> +swh; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +swh; got it

16:09:08 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:09:08 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:10:32 <PatH> zakim, unmute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me

16:10:32 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

16:11:23 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:11:23 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:12:50 <PatH> zakim, unmute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me

16:12:50 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

16:13:30 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:13:30 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:13:40 <PatH> will do.

Patrick Hayes: will do.

16:15:27 <pfps> good schedule

Peter Patel-Schneider: good schedule

16:15:33 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

16:15:45 <AndyS> next telecons - 21/Dec; skip 28th and then 4/Jan

next telecons - 21/Dec; skip 28th and then 4/Jan

16:15:48 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:15:57 <AndyS> Sandro: at risk for 21/Dec

Sandro Hawke: at risk for 21/Dec

16:16:04 <swh> regrets for 21st

Steve Harris: regrets for 21st

16:16:08 <AndyS> ... but go ahead

... but go ahead

16:16:17 <Arnaud> I don't think I'll be able to make it next week either

Arnaud Le Hors: I don't think I'll be able to make it next week either

16:16:21 <Souri> regrets for 21-Dec and 28-Dec

Souripriya Das: regrets for 21-Dec and 28-Dec

16:16:55 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

16:17:14 <sandro> q+ to suggest a little discussion of LDEP workshop

Sandro Hawke: q+ to suggest a little discussion of LDEP workshop

16:18:08 <AndyS> Topic: Named Graphs

2. Named Graphs

16:18:19 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Dec/0002.html

Sandro Hawke: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Dec/0002.html

16:18:37 <sandro> q-

Sandro Hawke: q-

16:18:55 <sandro> andy: graph literals in RDF graph, like N3

Andy Seaborne: graph literals in RDF graph, like N3 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:19:30 <sandro> andy: this isn't how they are used much, in the wild.   and graph literals are quite big.

Andy Seaborne: this isn't how they are used much, in the wild. and graph literals are quite big. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:20:18 <sandro> andy: case 2 is what I though NGs were originally about.    like the first one, but it's talking about the literals.

Andy Seaborne: case 2 is what I though NGs were originally about. like the first one, but it's talking about the literals. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:20:46 <PatH> zakim, unmute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me

16:20:46 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

16:20:52 <sandro> andy: the IRI :graphLiteral1 is naming the literal.    maybe :IRI_for_Graph_Literal_1

Andy Seaborne: the IRI :graphLiteral1 is naming the literal. maybe :IRI_for_Graph_Literal_1 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:21:04 <sandro> pat: literal or value?

Patrick Hayes: literal or value? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:21:14 <sandro> andy: Really IRI of value, I think.

Andy Seaborne: Really IRI of value, I think. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:21:35 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:21:36 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:21:52 <sandro> andy: Case 3a.    Putting the Web in, referencing things, doing gets on them....

Andy Seaborne: Case 3a. Putting the Web in, referencing things, doing gets on them.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:22:14 <sandro> ... Using graph value, then talking about the GET operation that caused you to get it.

Sandro Hawke: ... Using graph value, then talking about the GET operation that caused you to get it.

16:22:49 <sandro> ... there's a URI, but it's different from where you go the data

Sandro Hawke: ... there's a URI, but it's different from where you go the data

16:23:22 <sandro> ... Case 3b, Sandro's Rolling Snapshot, similar, but it's the PUBLISHER who does it.

Sandro Hawke: ... Case 3b, Sandro's Rolling Snapshot, similar, but it's the PUBLISHER who does it.

16:24:08 <sandro> sandro: not necessarily the original publisher, but yes, the snapshot is a new gbox on the web.

Sandro Hawke: not necessarily the original publisher, but yes, the snapshot is a new gbox on the web. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:24:22 <sandro> andy: Case 4: my understanidng of jjc's web cache example

Andy Seaborne: Case 4: my understanidng of jjc's web cache example [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:24:43 <sandro> ... lossy, you've forgotten when you looked at the gbox.   A commonly used pattern.

Sandro Hawke: ... lossy, you've forgotten when you looked at the gbox. A commonly used pattern.

16:24:57 <sandro> ... Case 5 -- primary Topic.

Sandro Hawke: ... Case 5 -- primary Topic.

16:25:01 <PatH> hi danbri. Andy is reviewing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Dec/0002.html

Patrick Hayes: hi danbri. Andy is reviewing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Dec/0002.html

16:25:37 <gavinc> ... can't case 4 become case 3b if you care about the details that get "lost" ?

Gavin Carothers: ... can't case 4 become case 3b if you care about the details that get "lost" ?

16:26:01 <Guus> q+

Guus Schreiber: q+

16:26:04 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:26:11 <sandro> sandro: CambridgeSemantics has a pattern of bundling data in graphs by a common subject

Sandro Hawke: CambridgeSemantics has a pattern of bundling data in graphs by a common subject [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:26:13 <gavinc> q+

Gavin Carothers: q+

16:26:20 <sandro> (aka Case 5, sort of)

Sandro Hawke: (aka Case 5, sort of)

16:26:21 <Guus> ack Guus

Guus Schreiber: ack Guus

16:26:28 <Guus> ack gavinc

Guus Schreiber: ack gavinc

16:26:29 <LeeF> That's right, Andy's case 5 is pretty similar to how our tools often work by default

Lee Feigenbaum: That's right, Andy's case 5 is pretty similar to how our tools often work by default

16:26:32 <Zakim> + +44.117.230.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.117.230.aacc

16:26:38 <sandro> Gavin: combing 3b and case 4 -- that works pretty well

Gavin Carothers: combing 3b and case 4 -- that works pretty well [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:27:07 <sandro> gavin: If you apply 3b to 4, you're not losing info.

Gavin Carothers: If you apply 3b to 4, you're not losing info. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:27:21 <sandro> andy: 3b assumes some other machinery.

Andy Seaborne: 3b assumes some other machinery. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:27:23 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:27:29 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

16:27:45 <Guus> ack sandro

Guus Schreiber: ack sandro

16:28:23 <AndyS> Sandro: insight: I argued that case 5 was bad practice -- I now prefer "RESTful" description.

Sandro Hawke: insight: I argued that case 5 was bad practice -- I now prefer "RESTful" description.

16:28:27 <gavinc> sandro, case 5 -can- be restful.

Gavin Carothers: sandro, case 5 -can- be restful.

16:28:33 <LeeF> our case-5-quasi way CAN be used with the URIs dereferenceable to get the graph

Lee Feigenbaum: our case-5-quasi way CAN be used with the URIs dereferenceable to get the graph

16:28:37 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll

Zakim IRC Bot: +JeremyCarroll

16:28:41 <gavinc> +1 LeeF

Gavin Carothers: +1 LeeF

16:29:06 <danbri> q+ to sandro

Dan Brickley: q+ to sandro

16:29:23 <LeeF> the "naughty" bits of case 5 - as best i can tell - is that you are typing things as both :Graphs and :SomethingElse, when many people think those ought to be disjoint

Lee Feigenbaum: the "naughty" bits of case 5 - as best i can tell - is that you are typing things as both :Graphs and :SomethingElse, when many people think those ought to be disjoint

16:29:28 <pfps> I worry about the rather underspecified REST forming an underpinning (of anything).

Peter Patel-Schneider: I worry about the rather underspecified REST forming an underpinning (of anything).

16:29:52 <PatH> for the record, I am completely confused by Andy's message and his explanation.

Patrick Hayes: for the record, I am completely confused by Andy's message and his explanation.

16:30:09 <AndyS> danbri: RESTful sometimes one primary version.  Q: what about multiple representations?

Dan Brickley: RESTful sometimes one primary version. Q: what about multiple representations?

16:30:49 <danbri> danbri: when I hear 'restful' I worry a bit, as people often conflate in a notion that the resource has essentially one primary representation (maybe + content neg) and don't also expect other complexities. SO for example, authenticated access to a personalised resource can still be restful.

Dan Brickley: when I hear 'restful' I worry a bit, as people often conflate in a notion that the resource has essentially one primary representation (maybe + content neg) and don't also expect other complexities. SO for example, authenticated access to a personalised resource can still be restful. [ Scribe Assist by Dan Brickley ]

16:31:19 <danbri> ...-> which means in practice, for any 'restful' url, you still need to keep track of the state of the deref transaction (user, http headers, date/time etc)

Dan Brickley: ...-> which means in practice, for any 'restful' url, you still need to keep track of the state of the deref transaction (user, http headers, date/time etc)

16:31:32 <PatH> does the machinery change the meanings of anything?

Patrick Hayes: does the machinery change the meanings of anything?

16:31:54 <pfps> In particular for RDF, how do we reconcile the difference between the graph-centered RDF and object-centered REST and also open/closed difference and single-/multi-valued difference.

Peter Patel-Schneider: In particular for RDF, how do we reconcile the difference between the graph-centered RDF and object-centered REST and also open/closed difference and single-/multi-valued difference.

16:32:06 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:32:10 <danbri> q-

Dan Brickley: q-

16:32:34 <PatH> zakim, unmute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me

16:32:34 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

16:33:42 <sandro> andy: in 3b there isn't a trig document

Andy Seaborne: in 3b there isn't a trig document [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:33:48 <pfps> +1 to PatH

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to PatH

16:33:57 <sandro> PatH: I can't make semantic sense of this, and will work on it offline.

Patrick Hayes: I can't make semantic sense of this, and will work on it offline. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:34:43 <AndyS> Guus: possible strawpoll ; and discussions that have arisen

Guus Schreiber: possible strawpoll ; and discussions that have arisen

16:34:43 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:34:43 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:35:39 <sandro> cygri: Let's resolve the entire GRAPHS discussion by adopting RDF Dataset as in RDF Concepts.  And do nothing on the semantics.

Richard Cyganiak: Let's resolve the entire GRAPHS discussion by adopting RDF Dataset as in RDF Concepts. And do nothing on the semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:35:47 <PatH> zakim, unmute me.

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me.

16:35:47 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

16:35:52 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:36:08 <sandro> cygri: Some issues about Default Graph, "no name", MAY have name, something.     Datamodel from SPARQL, and nothing in Semantics.

Richard Cyganiak: Some issues about Default Graph, "no name", MAY have name, something. Datamodel from SPARQL, and nothing in Semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:36:16 <gavinc> Yes.

Gavin Carothers: Yes.

16:36:19 <sandro> guus: Graph name has to be an IRI?

Guus Schreiber: Graph name has to be an IRI? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:36:23 <sandro> cygri: Yes.

Richard Cyganiak: Yes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:36:24 <AndyS> q+ to ask that TBL emails get to the list

q+ to ask that TBL emails get to the list

16:36:26 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

16:37:04 <cygri> PROPOSAL: Close all graph model+semantics issues by accepting the RDF Datasets design [1] as the data model, and by adding no new semantics.

PROPOSED: Close all graph model+semantics issues by accepting the RDF Datasets design [1] as the data model, and by adding no new semantics.

16:37:08 <sandro> AndyS: SPARQL docs currently say graph label is IRI, although machinery doesnt really care.

Andy Seaborne: SPARQL docs currently say graph label is IRI, although machinery doesnt really care. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:37:36 <Guus> ack PatH

Guus Schreiber: ack PatH

16:37:36 <sandro> PatH: In my email response to Richard, is that it involves Named Graphs.  That seems to modify the semantics.

Patrick Hayes: In my email response to Richard, is that it involves Named Graphs. That seems to modify the semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:37:51 <AndyS> PatH: puzzled because it talks about named graph.

Patrick Hayes: puzzled because it talks about named graph.

16:37:52 <davidwood> Abstract Syntax for Working with Multiple Graphs: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph

David Wood: Abstract Syntax for Working with Multiple Graphs: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph

16:38:00 <sandro> cygri: Leave the Semantics as it is, leave working in RDF Concepts ED, and close all related open issue.

Richard Cyganiak: Leave the Semantics as it is, leave working in RDF Concepts ED, and close all related open issue. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:38:09 <AndyS> cygri: close issue with the current concept doc.

Richard Cyganiak: close issue with the current concept doc.

16:38:10 <JeremyCarroll> q+

Jeremy Carroll: q+

16:38:37 <sandro> PatH: So the Concepts Document would refer to named graphs, and Semantic would be silent on it, leacing a muddle.

Patrick Hayes: So the Concepts Document would refer to named graphs, and Semantic would be silent on it, leacing a muddle. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:38:42 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:38:42 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:38:48 <sandro> cygri: Yes.  But who would be opposed to that.

Richard Cyganiak: Yes. But who would be opposed to that. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:39:14 <danbri> (can't we just make the list writeable to anyone who can post to w3c lists?)

Dan Brickley: (can't we just make the list writeable to anyone who can post to w3c lists?)

16:39:48 <sandro> Guys forward TimBLs email to list.

Sandro Hawke: Guys forward TimBLs email to list.

16:40:06 <sandro> JeremyCarroll: Named Graphs paper suggested a pragmatic treatment of named graphs.

Jeremy Carroll: Named Graphs paper suggested a pragmatic treatment of named graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:40:23 <sandro> ... because we couldnt change the formal semantics

Sandro Hawke: ... because we couldnt change the formal semantics

16:40:27 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:40:36 <sandro> ack JeremyCarroll

Sandro Hawke: ack JeremyCarroll

16:40:42 <gavinc> ack AndyS

Gavin Carothers: ack AndyS

16:40:42 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask that TBL emails get to the list

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask that TBL emails get to the list

16:40:50 <PatH> actually that paper did give a formal semantics. its not hard to do.

Patrick Hayes: actually that paper did give a formal semantics. its not hard to do.

16:41:15 <PatH> masybe jeremy didnt notice it :-)

Patrick Hayes: masybe jeremy didnt notice it :-)

16:41:20 <JeremyCarroll> :)

Jeremy Carroll: :)

16:41:22 <JeremyCarroll> -1

Jeremy Carroll: -1

16:41:23 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: Let's close all the GRAPHS issues, with just the currenty text in RDF Concepts

STRAWPOLL: Let's close all the GRAPHS issues, with just the currenty text in RDF Concepts

16:41:34 <AZ> q+

Antoine Zimmermann: q+

16:41:37 <sandro> -1 I think we need to try harder, for a while, sadly

Sandro Hawke: -1 I think we need to try harder, for a while, sadly

16:41:38 <PatH> -1

Patrick Hayes: -1

16:41:39 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

16:41:40 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

16:41:43 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

16:41:45 <MacTed> -1

Ted Thibodeau: -1

16:41:46 <pfps> Richard's proposal has the consequence that RDF datasets are not handled in the RDF semantics - which is solely concerned with how RDF graphs work.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Richard's proposal has the consequence that RDF datasets are not handled in the RDF semantics - which is solely concerned with how RDF graphs work.

16:41:46 <AndyS> +0.5 (want to have dataset patterns)

+0.5 (want to have dataset patterns)

16:41:47 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

16:41:50 <charlesgreer> +1

Charles Greer: +1

16:41:51 <AlexHall> +1

Alex Hall: +1

16:41:52 <gavinc> -0

Gavin Carothers: -0

16:41:52 <zwu2> +1 (starts with)

Zhe Wu: +1 (starts with)

16:41:56 <davidwood> -1, I'd love to end this, but won't in the face of Pat's -1

David Wood: -1, I'd love to end this, but won't in the face of Pat's -1

16:41:57 <AZ> -0

Antoine Zimmermann: -0

16:42:10 <swh> 0

Steve Harris: 0

16:42:14 <Souri> +1

Souripriya Das: +1

16:42:26 <pfps> I strongly agree with Sandro, that there needs to be a proposal to move forward.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I strongly agree with Sandro, that there needs to be a proposal to move forward.

16:42:29 <swh> maybe +0.5

Steve Harris: maybe +0.5

16:42:35 <pfps> ... if there is any forward to move.

Peter Patel-Schneider: ... if there is any forward to move.

16:42:39 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

16:42:49 <AndyS> q+ to ask about starting points

q+ to ask about starting points

16:42:59 <AZ> q+ to say that there is a formal semantic in the current proposal

Antoine Zimmermann: q+ to say that there is a formal semantic in the current proposal

16:43:05 <davidwood> The same poll could yield different results in 12 months :)

David Wood: The same poll could yield different results in 12 months :)

16:43:07 <PatH> i dont feel we have rally started on this yet. I will try to get a prposal by next week.

Patrick Hayes: i dont feel we have rally started on this yet. I will try to get a prposal by next week.

16:43:08 <AndyS> Guus: minimal needed to add?

Guus Schreiber: minimal needed to add?

16:43:25 <Guus> ack AZ

Guus Schreiber: ack AZ

16:43:25 <Zakim> AZ, you wanted to say that there is a formal semantic in the current proposal

Zakim IRC Bot: AZ, you wanted to say that there is a formal semantic in the current proposal

16:43:26 <PatH> rally/really

Patrick Hayes: rally/really

16:43:56 <AndyS> AZ: there is a semantic proposal already

Antoine Zimmermann: there is a semantic proposal already

16:44:02 <sandro> az: In the proposal about datasets, there is already a formal semantics.  But it has never been discussed in telecons.   It's been there since March.  It's minimals.  If you have several graphs, then you have several RDF interpretations.  What follows from a dataset is what entails from each graph in it.

Antoine Zimmermann: In the proposal about datasets, there is already a formal semantics. But it has never been discussed in telecons. It's been there since March. It's minimals. If you have several graphs, then you have several RDF interpretations. What follows from a dataset is what entails from each graph in it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:44:51 <PatH> Im afraid I dont think that idea makes sense. But we can discuss it in email.

Patrick Hayes: Im afraid I dont think that idea makes sense. But we can discuss it in email.

16:44:57 <pfps> Can we have a pointer to this semantics?

Peter Patel-Schneider: Can we have a pointer to this semantics?

16:45:01 <AndyS> From memory - it seemed OK.

From memory - it seemed OK.

16:45:18 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking?

16:45:29 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (40%), AndyS (4%), davidwood (4%), AZ (15%), Peter_Patel-Schneider (37%)

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (40%), AndyS (4%), davidwood (4%), AZ (15%), Peter_Patel-Schneider (37%)

16:45:50 <sandro> pfps: Pat brought up negative consequences that resonated with people.  What?

Peter Patel-Schneider: Pat brought up negative consequences that resonated with people. What? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:46:11 <PatH> zakim, unmute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me

16:46:11 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

16:46:29 <sandro> davidwood: Pat said disconnect between RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics.

David Wood: Pat said disconnect between RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:46:30 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

16:46:38 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:46:42 <AndyS> ack pfpf

ack pfpf

16:46:49 <AndyS> ack pfps

ack pfps

16:46:55 <Guus> ack pfps

Guus Schreiber: ack pfps

16:47:02 <gavinc> Enough so that someone coming to RDF has some CLUE what's going on with named graphs. Right now or with the minimal statement you have to go and read all sorts of other documents to figure out what Named Graphs are used for. And then you find disagreement in those other documents, and then you end up editing TriG

Gavin Carothers: Enough so that someone coming to RDF has some CLUE what's going on with named graphs. Right now or with the minimal statement you have to go and read all sorts of other documents to figure out what Named Graphs are used for. And then you find disagreement in those other documents, and then you end up editing TriG

16:47:21 <sandro> pat: There are many entailments up for grabs.  Which ones will be in Semantics?

Patrick Hayes: There are many entailments up for grabs. Which ones will be in Semantics? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:47:36 <sandro> Guus: If this is only about gboxes, then there should be no change to semantics.

Guus Schreiber: If this is only about gboxes, then there should be no change to semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:47:44 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:48:04 <JeremyCarroll> q+

Jeremy Carroll: q+

16:48:12 <sandro> pat: When you say a URI names something, that statements has a lot of Semantic Weight.      As we've demonstrated, there's a lot of potential misunderstanding over that usage.

Patrick Hayes: When you say a URI names something, that statements has a lot of Semantic Weight. As we've demonstrated, there's a lot of potential misunderstanding over that usage. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:48:26 <sandro> [ We need test cases! ]

Sandro Hawke: [ We need test cases! ]

16:48:28 <cygri> "http://example.com"^^xsd:anyURI is an IRI and doesn't denote anything in the formal semantics

Richard Cyganiak: "http://example.com"^^xsd:anyURI is an IRI and doesn't denote anything in the formal semantics

16:48:39 <AndyS> ack AndyS

ack AndyS

16:48:39 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about starting points

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about starting points

16:48:49 <PatH> q-

Patrick Hayes: q-

16:49:13 <sandro> AndyS: Starting points?  Are we targetting a design that does not invalidate what people are already doing?   Or are we designing a clean sheet solution?

Andy Seaborne: Starting points? Are we targetting a design that does not invalidate what people are already doing? Or are we designing a clean sheet solution? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:49:13 <pfps> Why not just say that a named graph is a pair consisting of a URI and an RDF graph?

Peter Patel-Schneider: Why not just say that a named graph is a pair consisting of a URI and an RDF graph?

16:49:15 <JeremyCarroll> @cygri The formal semantics gives the value of "http://example.com" to that on e

Jeremy Carroll: @cygri The formal semantics gives the value of "http://example.com" to that on e

16:49:18 <JeremyCarroll> it is specified

Jeremy Carroll: it is specified

16:49:26 <sandro> guus: Charter says don't invalidate existing deployments.

Guus Schreiber: Charter says don't invalidate existing deployments. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:49:33 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:50:11 <sandro> Andy: Different people are using the semantics differently

Andy Seaborne: Different people are using the semantics differently [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:50:12 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to give test case

Jeremy Carroll: q+ to give test case

16:50:30 <Guus> ack sandro

Guus Schreiber: ack sandro

16:50:45 <AndyS> Andy: current uses look like several different semantics / patterns of usage

Andy Seaborne: current uses look like several different semantics / patterns of usage

16:50:49 <sandro> Brad Allen of Elsevier: Named Graph == A document containing RDF that has a presence on the Web, as a container for that graph.

Sandro Hawke: Brad Allen of Elsevier: Named Graph == A document containing RDF that has a presence on the Web, as a container for that graph.

16:51:01 <PatH> a g-box

Patrick Hayes: a g-box

16:51:09 <LeeF> thats not what i think a named graph is

Lee Feigenbaum: thats not what i think a named graph is

16:51:18 <LeeF>  tag:mygraph { ... some triples ... }

Lee Feigenbaum: tag:mygraph { ... some triples ... }

16:51:19 <LeeF> is a named graph

Lee Feigenbaum: is a named graph

16:51:21 <LeeF> not on the Web

Lee Feigenbaum: not on the Web

16:51:26 <danbri> I disagree

Dan Brickley: I disagree

16:51:47 <davidwood> Are we going to argue now about what a "document" is?  I suspect that "document" has now been used in at least as many ways as "graph".

David Wood: Are we going to argue now about what a "document" is? I suspect that "document" has now been used in at least as many ways as "graph".

16:51:48 <danbri> Lots of RDF people understand it as a kind of muddle between SPARQL datasets, and 'where/how I got it...'

Dan Brickley: Lots of RDF people understand it as a kind of muddle between SPARQL datasets, and 'where/how I got it...'

16:51:52 <sandro> a gbox on the web.

Sandro Hawke: a gbox on the web.

16:52:05 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:52:22 <danbri> ( re what-is-a-doc, http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/whatdoc.html )

Dan Brickley: ( re what-is-a-doc, http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/whatdoc.html )

16:52:30 <davidwood> A "document" cannot equal a g-box in my world.  A g-snap, surely.

David Wood: A "document" cannot equal a g-box in my world. A g-snap, surely.

16:52:30 <PatH> clearly the world needs restful-named g-boxes.

Patrick Hayes: clearly the world needs restful-named g-boxes.

16:52:37 <AndyS> Seems very like FROM NAMED in SPARQL -- a usage of the SPARQL RDF datasets

Seems very like FROM NAMED in SPARQL -- a usage of the SPARQL RDF datasets

16:52:41 <sandro> AndyS: I think that's what Dan Connolly had in mind for SPARQL datasets.

Andy Seaborne: I think that's what Dan Connolly had in mind for SPARQL datasets. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:52:45 <PatH> I suggest it also needs named graphs.

Patrick Hayes: I suggest it also needs named graphs.

16:53:22 <PatH> so we need to distinguish them.

Patrick Hayes: so we need to distinguish them.

16:53:33 <AndyS> cygri: world expects that case, we can give the world something like that (maybe more)

Richard Cyganiak: world expects that case, we can give the world something like that (maybe more)

16:53:47 <sandro> cygri:Sandro, Datasets are a step in the right direction to this, "what the world wants"

Richard Cyganiak: Sandro, Datasets are a step in the right direction to this, "what the world wants" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:54:43 <AndyS> cygri: non-denoting in "http://example/resource"^^xsd:anyURI

Richard Cyganiak: non-denoting in "http://example/resource"^^xsd:anyURI

16:55:02 <LeeF> BTW, i'd be prety happy with what pfps wrote above: named graph is a pair of (URI, RDF graph) -- since as I understand things, that's exactly how I've always used them

Lee Feigenbaum: BTW, i'd be prety happy with what pfps wrote above: named graph is a pair of (URI, RDF graph) -- since as I understand things, that's exactly how I've always used them

16:55:05 <AndyS> path: if we say "uri names X" then we need to say what "names" means

Patrick Hayes: if we say "uri names X" then we need to say what "names" means

16:55:13 <sandro> pat: If our spec says "named graphs", we need to be specific about what we mean by that phrase.

Patrick Hayes: If our spec says "named graphs", we need to be specific about what we mean by that phrase. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:55:19 <gavinc> "A graph statement pairs an IRI with a RDF Graph. It is intended that triple statements made using that IRI are being made about the graph."

Gavin Carothers: "A graph statement pairs an IRI with a RDF Graph. It is intended that triple statements made using that IRI are being made about the graph."

16:55:31 <danbri> PatH, don't just say consequences for entailments in RDF; say 'for what people do with RDF data...'

Dan Brickley: PatH, don't just say consequences for entailments in RDF; say 'for what people do with RDF data...'

16:55:42 <danbri> (for those whose eyes glaze over at mention of fancy logic stuff)

Dan Brickley: (for those whose eyes glaze over at mention of fancy logic stuff)

16:55:47 <sandro> q+ to ask if Pat can write down some test cases

Sandro Hawke: q+ to ask if Pat can write down some test cases

16:55:57 <AndyS> +1 to LeeF -- it's the minimal framework (but the looseness can lead to corner cases later)

+1 to LeeF -- it's the minimal framework (but the looseness can lead to corner cases later)

16:55:57 <LeeF> yeah test cases!

Lee Feigenbaum: yeah test cases!

16:56:26 <AndyS> cygri: It's a label.

Richard Cyganiak: It's a label.

16:57:16 <sandro> +1 JJC

Sandro Hawke: +1 JJC

16:57:30 <AndyS> Jeremy: can say different things about same URI.

Jeremy Carroll: can say different things about same URI.

16:57:41 <AndyS> q+ to say "patterns"

q+ to say "patterns"

16:57:50 <sandro> +1 JJC we need simple test cases to show things like an inconsistency when people dsay different things about the same graph.

Sandro Hawke: +1 JJC we need simple test cases to show things like an inconsistency when people dsay different things about the same graph.

16:57:50 <pfps> But why is it the job of RDF to do what Jeremy wants?  For example, RDF doesn't make a=b and a/=b a contradiction.

Peter Patel-Schneider: But why is it the job of RDF to do what Jeremy wants? For example, RDF doesn't make a=b and a/=b a contradiction.

16:58:12 <LeeF> pfps++

Lee Feigenbaum: pfps++

16:58:16 <LeeF> +1 even

Lee Feigenbaum: +1 even

16:58:27 <AndyS> "patterns" are an external semantics  -- in-doc semantics mean too many people have to change

"patterns" are an external semantics -- in-doc semantics mean too many people have to change

16:58:28 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

16:58:30 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking?

16:58:39 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (67%), Scott_Bauer (51%), cygri (5%), JeremyCarroll (76%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (67%), Scott_Bauer (51%), cygri (5%), JeremyCarroll (76%)

16:58:48 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll

Zakim IRC Bot: -JeremyCarroll

16:58:48 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:58:48 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:58:55 <PatH> pfps, graphs are central to RDF, and no other authority is going to make it clear for us.

Patrick Hayes: pfps, graphs are central to RDF, and no other authority is going to make it clear for us.

16:59:01 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (57%), AZ (4%), JeremyCarroll (16%)

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (57%), AZ (4%), JeremyCarroll (16%)

16:59:15 <cygri> ack me

Richard Cyganiak: ack me

16:59:15 <sandro> ack sandro

Sandro Hawke: ack sandro

16:59:17 <Guus> ack cygri

Guus Schreiber: ack cygri

16:59:27 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:59:39 <MacTed> ack JeremyCarroll

Ted Thibodeau: ack JeremyCarroll

16:59:39 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask if Pat can write down some test cases

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to ask if Pat can write down some test cases

16:59:42 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll

Guus Schreiber: ack JeremyCarroll

16:59:57 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:59:58 <PatH> will do.

Patrick Hayes: will do.

17:00:05 <PatH> in email soon.

Patrick Hayes: in email soon.

17:00:12 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

17:00:14 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give test case

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give test case

17:00:15 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

17:00:29 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

17:01:11 <sandro> q-

Sandro Hawke: q-

17:01:12 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

17:01:36 <sandro> andy: Patterns, an attempt to overlay semantics on a TriG document.

Andy Seaborne: Patterns, an attempt to overlay semantics on a TriG document. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:01:57 <sandro> andy: and then label documents as using particular patterns.

Andy Seaborne: and then label documents as using particular patterns. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:01:59 <PatH> test cases can also be petterns :-)

Patrick Hayes: test cases can also be petterns :-)

17:02:12 <PatH> patterns

Patrick Hayes: patterns

17:02:37 <gavinc> q+ to complain about not being able to work on TriG

Gavin Carothers: q+ to complain about not being able to work on TriG

17:03:43 <PatH> zakim, unmute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me

17:03:47 <AndyS> ack me

ack me

17:03:47 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

17:04:01 <sandro> q+ to suggest what a test case might look like (Entailments/Consistency of comibinations of TriG and RDF Graphs)

Sandro Hawke: q+ to suggest what a test case might look like (Entailments/Consistency of comibinations of TriG and RDF Graphs)

17:04:04 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

17:04:12 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to say "patterns"

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to say "patterns"

17:04:41 <davidwood> +10 to MacTed

David Wood: +10 to MacTed

17:04:45 <danbri> yup

Dan Brickley: yup

17:04:59 <PatH> is that trerminology written down? pointer?

Patrick Hayes: is that trerminology written down? pointer?

17:05:18 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-10-12#resolution_1

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-10-12#resolution_1

17:05:20 <davidwood> ^ Pat

David Wood: ^ Pat

17:05:23 <PatH> ta.

Patrick Hayes: ta.

17:05:43 <sandro> MacTed: We need to stick with g-box, etc, terms instead of the way we keep using confusing terms.

Ted Thibodeau: We need to stick with g-box, etc, terms instead of the way we keep using confusing terms. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:05:48 <pfps> I'm trying to figure out what overloading is happening with respect to "named graphs".

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm trying to figure out what overloading is happening with respect to "named graphs".

17:06:11 <PatH> my bad for using 'g-box'.

Patrick Hayes: my bad for using 'g-box'.

17:06:26 <sandro> pfps, is a named graph a pair of (name, graph) as in the RDF Concepts, or is it "A document containing RDF that has a presence on the Web, as a container for that graph".

Sandro Hawke: pfps, is a named graph a pair of (name, graph) as in the RDF Concepts, or is it "A document containing RDF that has a presence on the Web, as a container for that graph".

17:06:41 <PatH> i wasnt at the f2f :(

Patrick Hayes: i wasnt at the f2f :(

17:06:59 <PatH> awww

Patrick Hayes: awww

17:07:01 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

17:07:08 <PatH> q-

Patrick Hayes: q-

17:07:09 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

17:07:09 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

17:07:16 <Guus> ack MacTed

Guus Schreiber: ack MacTed

17:07:24 <davidwood> <graph container> owl:sameAs "g-box", but the range of sameAs can't be a literal so we end up having the same conversation about denotation...

David Wood: <graph container> owl:sameAs "g-box", but the range of sameAs can't be a literal so we end up having the same conversation about denotation...

17:07:39 <PatH> fofl

Patrick Hayes: fofl

17:07:59 <sandro> gavin: First draft of TriG was posted a week and ahalf after F2F, and I've asked at every WG meeting since then about some language in it, and I keep getting different answers.

Gavin Carothers: First draft of TriG was posted a week and ahalf after F2F, and I've asked at every WG meeting since then about some language in it, and I keep getting different answers. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:08:10 <Guus> ack gavinc

Guus Schreiber: ack gavinc

17:08:10 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to complain about not being able to work on TriG

Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to complain about not being able to work on TriG

17:08:23 <PatH> we need a group assignment to read and follow a bunch of documents.

Patrick Hayes: we need a group assignment to read and follow a bunch of documents.

17:08:47 <cygri> gavinc, you can't standardize the serialization when the model is still in flux. no surprise there

Richard Cyganiak: gavinc, you can't standardize the serialization when the model is still in flux. no surprise there

17:08:51 <AndyS> We are quoting from outside WG so safer to use g-* to understand those views.

We are quoting from outside WG so safer to use g-* to understand those views.

17:08:51 <Guus> ack sandro

Guus Schreiber: ack sandro

17:08:51 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to suggest what a test case might look like (Entailments/Consistency of comibinations of TriG and RDF Graphs)

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to suggest what a test case might look like (Entailments/Consistency of comibinations of TriG and RDF Graphs)

17:08:53 <sandro> TriG document + RDF Graphs ===> Entailments / contradictions

Sandro Hawke: TriG document + RDF Graphs ===> Entailments / contradictions

17:09:26 <pfps> actually I don't see any problem with writing the serialization spec, it is just the "surround" that is difficult

Peter Patel-Schneider: actually I don't see any problem with writing the serialization spec, it is just the "surround" that is difficult

17:09:35 <gavinc> "A graph statement pairs an IRI with a RDF Graph. It is intended that triple statements made using that IRI are being made about the graph."

Gavin Carothers: "A graph statement pairs an IRI with a RDF Graph. It is intended that triple statements made using that IRI are being made about the graph."

17:09:42 <pfps> ... without any consensus on how named graphs are supposed to work

Peter Patel-Schneider: ... without any consensus on how named graphs are supposed to work

17:09:54 <PatH> we might need a new format for webbish test cases involving containers.

Patrick Hayes: we might need a new format for webbish test cases involving containers.

17:10:10 <AndyS> sandro: IRI labels the graph

Sandro Hawke: IRI labels the graph

17:10:15 <PatH> +1 pfps

Patrick Hayes: +1 pfps

17:10:27 <AndyS> ... workign out what "labels" can be

... workign out what "labels" can be

17:10:29 <Zakim> -Arnaud_LeHors

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud_LeHors

17:11:41 <LeeF> yup

Lee Feigenbaum: yup

17:12:06 <AndyS> pfps: parser/grammar outputs a dataset.

Peter Patel-Schneider: parser/grammar outputs a dataset.

17:13:04 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: We'll use TriG as our multigraph syntax, given we agree on some little details.   TriG is a syntax for serializaing an RDF Dataset.

STRAWPOLL: We'll use TriG as our multigraph syntax, given we agree on some little details. TriG is a syntax for serializaing an RDF Dataset.

17:13:04 <cygri> danbri++

Richard Cyganiak: danbri++

17:13:12 <MacTed> TriG as opposed to ... N-Quads?  something(s) else?

Ted Thibodeau: TriG as opposed to ... N-Quads? something(s) else?

17:13:13 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

17:13:14 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

17:13:15 <cygri> -1

Richard Cyganiak: -1

17:13:16 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

17:13:17 <zwu2> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

17:13:20 <PatH> 0

Patrick Hayes: 0

17:13:24 <sandro> +0 not sure

Sandro Hawke: +0 not sure

17:13:26 <swh> +1 (but only internally, not published)

Steve Harris: +1 (but only internally, not published)

17:13:36 <AlexHall> +1

Alex Hall: +1

17:13:41 <danbri> +1

Dan Brickley: +1

17:14:00 <sandro> cygri, prefers in n-quads

Sandro Hawke: cygri, prefers in n-quads

17:14:10 <AndyS> +1 TriG and N-quads (c.f. Turtle and N-triples)

+1 TriG and N-quads (c.f. Turtle and N-triples)

17:14:13 <AZ> 0

Antoine Zimmermann: 0

17:14:15 <MacTed> +0    I generally prefer not to implicitly bless anything, when it's possible to present multiple  (so I'm likewise against presenting *only* in N-Quads, if both are viable)

Ted Thibodeau: +0 I generally prefer not to implicitly bless anything, when it's possible to present multiple (so I'm likewise against presenting *only* in N-Quads, if both are viable)

17:14:29 <LeeF> I'm +1 for N-quads too

Lee Feigenbaum: I'm +1 for N-quads too

17:14:38 <LeeF> since we're now discussing that :)

Lee Feigenbaum: since we're now discussing that :)

17:14:43 <PatH> I have to leave very soon.

Patrick Hayes: I have to leave very soon.

17:14:46 <AndyS> Not only N-Quads - unreadable at scale (scale = 2+ graphs)

Not only N-Quads - unreadable at scale (scale = 2+ graphs)

17:15:18 <PatH> im feeling pentagonal.

Patrick Hayes: im feeling pentagonal.

17:16:00 <sandro> np, Andy

Sandro Hawke: np, Andy

17:16:29 <sandro> guus: Thanks everyone.

Guus Schreiber: Thanks everyone. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:16:32 <zwu2> bye

Zhe Wu: bye

17:16:38 <PatH> bye

Patrick Hayes: bye

17:16:43 <sandro> ... sounds like we need to pay more attention to our graphs terminology

Sandro Hawke: ... sounds like we need to pay more attention to our graphs terminology

17:16:57 <sandro> ... and work on what needs to be added for Graphs.

Sandro Hawke: ... and work on what needs to be added for Graphs.

17:17:11 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

17:17:12 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

17:17:12 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

17:17:13 <Zakim> -swh

Zakim IRC Bot: -swh

17:17:13 <Zakim> -cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri

17:17:13 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

17:17:15 <Zakim> -danbri

Zakim IRC Bot: -danbri

17:17:17 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

17:17:21 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

17:17:23 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

17:17:26 <Zakim> - +1.443.212.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.443.212.aabb

17:17:27 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer

17:17:34 <Zakim> -charlesgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: -charlesgreer

17:17:42 <Zakim> -sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -sandro

17:17:45 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider

17:17:48 <Zakim> -Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus

17:17:57 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer?

17:17:57 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-rdf-wg-irc#T17-17-57

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-rdf-wg-irc#T17-17-57

17:18:16 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF

17:21:01 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

17:27:28 <Zakim> -FabGandon

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: -FabGandon

17:27:29 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

17:27:30 <Zakim> Attendees were Guus, AndyS, sandro, Arnaud_LeHors, LeeF, Scott_Bauer, MacTed, cygri, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, AZ, gavinc, charlesgreer, FabGandon, +1.443.212.aabb, zwu2,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Guus, AndyS, sandro, Arnaud_LeHors, LeeF, Scott_Bauer, MacTed, cygri, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, AZ, gavinc, charlesgreer, FabGandon, +1.443.212.aabb, zwu2,

17:27:34 <Zakim> ... PatH, swh, Souri, danbri, JeremyCarroll, Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: ... PatH, swh, Souri, danbri, JeremyCarroll, Arnaud



Formatted by CommonScribe


This revision (#1) generated 2011-12-14 17:46:48 UTC by 'unknown', comments: None